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| annegentle_ | doc team meeting in here | 13:59 |
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| n0ano | #startmeeting scheduler | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jan 7 15:00:29 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: scheduler)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'scheduler' | 15:00 |
| n0ano | anyone here for the scheduler meeting? | 15:00 |
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| cloudon1 | yes | 15:00 |
| PaulMurray | hi n0ano, I'm here | 15:00 |
| * coolsvap : yes, for first time here | 15:01 | |
| n0ano | coolsvap, welcome (we don't bite) | 15:01 |
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| coolsvap | n0ano: :) | 15:01 |
| garyk | hi, i am here | 15:02 |
| toan-tran | hi all | 15:02 |
| alaski | hi | 15:02 |
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| n0ano | I wanted to talk about the the no-db scheduler but Boris doesn't seem to be around, let's change the order a bit | 15:03 |
| n0ano | #topic Scheduler code forklift | 15:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Scheduler code forklift (Meeting topic: scheduler)" | 15:03 | |
| n0ano | if you've been following the mail list you should see that I think we have the new gantt tree up to where it is publicly usable | 15:04 |
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| n0ano | Jenkins passes (with non-voting test failures) so we can follow the normal procedures to approve and commit changes | 15:04 |
| cloudon1 | Can I please ask how the Gantt work implementing (I think) nova-oslo-scheduler relates to the forklift-scheduler-breakout BP proposed by Rob Collins and discussed before Christmas? | 15:05 |
| n0ano | for anyone interested in working on it there's an etherpad with lots of details... | 15:05 |
| n0ano | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/icehouse-external-scheduler | 15:05 |
| garyk | n0ano: i have an idea which may help us move forward with integration into other modules | 15:06 |
| n0ano | cloudon1, I believe that gantt is that proposal, Rob Collins has been heavily involved in getting the tree up and running | 15:06 |
| n0ano | garyk, go ahead | 15:06 |
| cloudon1 | Ah, OK, thanks, that wasn't clear | 15:06 |
| garyk | would it be worthwhile for us to move the scheduling code to be objects. that is, we will have a object end point that will work via the db | 15:06 |
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| garyk | the the gantt could speak with a nova object module and say a cinder one and gather all of the data without having to worry about database migrations. | 15:07 |
| n0ano | garyk, as a second step yes, the first step is to use all of the current APIs, exactly as they exist, and just get nova to call the code in the new tree | 15:07 |
| garyk | why is it not part of the first step, that is, it will save us a huge migration from nova afterwards | 15:08 |
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| PaulMurray | n0ano there are patches in progress moving compute_node to objects | 15:08 |
| PaulMurray | don't really understand how these and forklift coordinate? | 15:09 |
| garyk | i think that is the scheduler code was objectified (sorry no idea how to describe it) | 15:09 |
| n0ano | how would that save us, a migration would have to happen to move to objects no matter when we do it, using the current APIs just get's things going now | 15:09 |
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| garyk | then it will be easier to 'pluck' out and maintain moving forwards | 15:09 |
| garyk | insetad of talking object version 1.0, we will talk object version 2.0 | 15:09 |
| garyk | i think that it is inline with the way that objects work with versions, say havana and icehosue | 15:10 |
| n0ano | garyk, not seeing it, my plan is to track scheduler changes to the nova tree (small set of files, easily automated) and push those changes to gantt | 15:10 |
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| garyk | i understand that. but i think that the tracking should start from the time that we do the object support | 15:10 |
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| garyk | if you guys want i can do the object support in the up and coming week | 15:11 |
| PaulMurray | at the scheduler | 15:11 |
| garyk | yes. at the scheduler. | 15:11 |
| n0ano | garyk, if you do the object support to the nova scheduler code then I intend to just pull that into gantt | 15:11 |
| garyk | at the moment it talks directly with the db. maybe it should talk obejcts | 15:11 |
| PaulMurray | ok - we are working on compute node end along with intel guys | 15:11 |
| garyk | does it sound logical and reasonable to do the scheduler code as objects? | 15:12 |
| garyk | PaulMurray: and this will be based on or done in conjuction with what you guys are doing | 15:12 |
| coolsvap | garyk: I think it does | 15:13 |
| n0ano | garyk, ah, that's a question, I'm not opposed to that so making it an object would be OK | 15:13 |
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| PaulMurray | garyk: good - we are trying to get metrics/extra_resources/pci working | 15:13 |
| alaski | garyk: I think it's reasonable to use objects | 15:13 |
| garyk | ok, cool. i'll give it a bash to move it to objects. | 15:13 |
| PaulMurray | garyk - great | 15:14 |
| n0ano | anyway, as I see it the four main tasks for the gantt tree right now are... | 15:14 |
| n0ano | 1) Get the unit tests working | 15:14 |
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| n0ano | 2) Get nova to call into the gantt tree | 15:15 |
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| n0ano | 3) Get the documentation working | 15:15 |
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| n0ano | 4) Start working on futures (RESTful API to make gantt a separate sevice usable by others than Nova) | 15:15 |
| n0ano | The first 3 are critical and help on those areas would be greatly apprcieated | 15:16 |
| n0ano | we can coordinate efforts throught the etherpad | 15:16 |
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| coolsvap | I can work on #3 to start with and co-ordinate someone in #1 & #2 | 15:18 |
| n0ano | coolsvap, great, I'd suggest you just tack a note onto the end of the etherpad about what you're doing and go for it | 15:19 |
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| garyk | i think that prior to the REST definitions we need to do some serious thinking | 15:19 |
| garyk | neutron and cinder services both break with heavy load. do we want a similar model here? | 15:20 |
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| garyk | hope i am not stepping on peoples toes but we are getting a lot of flack in neutron about this | 15:20 |
| n0ano | garyk, +1, I don't want to solve neutron and cinder now but I would like to address them with futures | 15:20 |
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| n0ano | garyk, neutron doesn't like the idea of a common scheduler, they'd prefer to do that work themselves? | 15:21 |
| garyk | no, i am not talkking about adding scheduling for cinder and neutron resources. i am talking about learning about their painpoints and see how we can have a service that is interfaced from nova and will not be the achilles heal. | 15:21 |
| n0ano | ah, agreed, no argument at all | 15:22 |
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| n0ano | I think making gantt a schedluer for nova, even moving to objects and separate service, is relatively easy, making it general enough for everyone will be a lot harder | 15:23 |
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| n0ano | anyway, the tree is open and there's lots to do, we can continue on the mailing list | 15:24 |
| n0ano | moving on, is boris-42 or glikson here? | 15:24 |
| toan-tran | just a question, what does neutron do with scheduler? | 15:24 |
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| n0ano | toan-tran, I belive they have their own, rudimentary scheduler, they need that capability | 15:25 |
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| n0ano | if a common service can satisfy their needs then fine, otherwise they would just stick with their own code | 15:26 |
| n0ano | anyway, I wanted to talk no-db and multiple scheduler drivers but the people involved aren't here | 15:27 |
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| n0ano | #topic opens | 15:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "opens (Meeting topic: scheduler)" | 15:27 | |
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| n0ano | I'm hearing silence | 15:28 |
| alaski | I have a thought I can throw out there | 15:29 |
| n0ano | alaski, throw away | 15:29 |
| alaski | this is just some brainstorming from yesterday, but I was considering the idea of having a different approach to scheduling where there's a precalculated set of slots that can be filled and a scheduling request reserves a slot to send a build to | 15:30 |
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| alaski | so the heavy calculations for resource allocation become a background process basically | 15:30 |
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| alaski | well not allocation exactly, but defining what can fit where | 15:31 |
| n0ano | hmm, my immediate thought is deadlock and latency, have you thought about those issues? | 15:31 |
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| garyk | alaski: that could work if the resources that you have are predictable | 15:32 |
| alaski | latency could certainly be an issue, but maybe not enough to have an effect, would need some testing | 15:32 |
| alaski | n0ano: I'm not sure where a deadlock would occur | 15:32 |
| garyk | kind of like a memory pool. i think that things like ensembles and taking other services into account complicate issue a tad | 15:33 |
| alaski | garyk: sure. I'm thinking in terms of flavors right now, but maybe that's not enough to quantify it all | 15:33 |
| toan-tran | alaski: which kind of slot are you referring to? | 15:33 |
| PaulMurray | I guess you could maintain pools - like memory allocation - and free space that's allocated as usual if no pre-defined fits | 15:33 |
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| n0ano | you have a `set of slots', that means a limited set of resources | 15:33 |
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| PaulMurray | could catch a large percentage of requests | 15:34 |
| alaski | a slot would basically equate to a flavor, an allocatable resource | 15:34 |
| garyk | once you start to add things like affinity, anti affinity, and other constraints then it becomes more challeging | 15:34 |
| alaski | set of resources | 15:34 |
| garyk | if the types scheduled are homogenous then it is a very good idea | 15:34 |
| garyk | you can do prefetching etc. and know ahead of time the placement stragtegy | 15:34 |
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| garyk | not sure if mike is around. i am sure that he understand the placement cost and complexity very well | 15:36 |
| n0ano | alaski, sounds interesting, are you at the point of creating a blueprint on this yet? | 15:36 |
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| alaski | so there are definitely some holes in the idea, but I was curious how it might play out with some work. | 15:37 |
| alaski | n0ano: not at the bp stage. But I may prototype something to see how badly it falls apart, or doesn't | 15:37 |
| n0ano | I'm not hearing any serious arguments against it (although things like affinity/anti-affinity need to be considered) so a prototype would be very interesting | 15:38 |
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| alaski | Mainly I was trying to see if some precalculations could help with speed, and this was my first concept | 15:38 |
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| toan-tran | alaski does it help if we have some kind of request histogram? | 15:39 |
| alaski | cool, if/when I get something together I'll throw it up for additional eyes | 15:39 |
| PaulMurray | very interesting alaski - thanks | 15:39 |
| alaski | toan-tran: I can see some uses for that, but it may be a bit before it can be used | 15:39 |
| toan-tran | because we have some ideas on the precalculation too | 15:40 |
| toan-tran | our idea is to create some VM beforehand | 15:40 |
| toan-tran | mainly based on popular flavors | 15:40 |
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| toan-tran | the VMs will be deployed beforehand in NFS | 15:41 |
| toan-tran | so when a user requests for a VM | 15:41 |
| toan-tran | these VMs can be directly "transferred" into hand of the user | 15:41 |
| n0ano | toan-tran, not sure how you're going to pre-create a VM, what image would you start? | 15:41 |
| toan-tran | n0ano: based on popukar image | 15:42 |
| toan-tran | for instance, that's would be images for trial offer | 15:42 |
| n0ano | toan-tran, maybe, I have to say I'm skeptical | 15:42 |
| alaski | it's a very interesting idea, and has been lightly discussed before but there are some hurdles to overcome | 15:43 |
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| alaski | toan-tran: the tenant transfer of the vm is one of the bigger road blocks that needs to be solved | 15:43 |
| toan-tran | yeah, that's where we're stuck here :) | 15:44 |
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| boris-42 | n0ano hi | 15:45 |
| n0ano | boris-42, great you're here | 15:45 |
| n0ano | #topic no-db scheduler update | 15:45 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "no-db scheduler update (Meeting topic: scheduler)" | 15:45 | |
| n0ano | boris-42, any news? | 15:45 |
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| boris-42 | n0ano happy new year=) and marry christmas=) | 15:46 |
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| boris-42 | n0ano actually there is no updates, because of holidays | 15:46 |
| boris-42 | n0ano but we are going in 2-3 days to make some kind of live demo | 15:46 |
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| boris-42 | n0ano and benchmark openstack at scale using Rally | 15:46 |
| boris-42 | n0ano old VS new scheduler | 15:46 |
| n0ano | boris-42, NP, I've been blaming the holidays for all my delays, it's a common issue | 15:47 |
| boris-42 | n0ano yep but seems like Rally | 15:47 |
| boris-42 | n0ano is ready for such kinds of benchmarks | 15:47 |
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| boris-42 | n0ano so will try to get some interesting results | 15:47 |
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| n0ano | will be interesting to see those results, are you holding off on the patches for nova ultil after that? | 15:48 |
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| boris-42 | n0ano ? | 15:48 |
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| boris-42 | n0ano there is a lot of work around, especially we will try to put data from cinder to nova scheduler | 15:49 |
| n0ano | I thought you had changes for nova that were ready to be reviewed | 15:49 |
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| boris-42 | n0ano https://review.openstack.org/#/c/45867/ | 15:49 |
| boris-42 | https://review.openstack.org/#/q/project:openstack/nova+branch:master+topic:bp/no-db-scheduler,n,z | 15:49 |
| boris-42 | But there will be more | 15:50 |
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| boris-42 | n0ano it works but doesn't pass all tests=) | 15:50 |
| boris-42 | n0ano I think we will quick all them | 15:50 |
| boris-42 | n0ano after 9 Jan | 15:50 |
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| n0ano | ah, that is clearly an issue, so when you fix the test failure you should be mergeable into the tree, right? | 15:51 |
| boris-42 | n0ano yep | 15:51 |
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| boris-42 | n0ano but there will be more patches, to show how it will work with to data sources (cinder/nova) | 15:52 |
| boris-42 | n0ano and cleanup of old code (compute_nodes tables and db.api) | 15:52 |
| boris-42 | n0ano and refactoring of nova.api to get compute_nodes though scheduler | 15:52 |
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| n0ano | that's OK, cleanup of the old code is only to be expected | 15:53 |
| boris-42 | n0ano why only?) | 15:53 |
| boris-42 | n0ano how about merging cinder and nova scchedulers?) | 15:53 |
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| n0ano | s/only to be/to be | 15:53 |
| * n0ano bad english | 15:53 | |
| boris-42 | ah | 15:53 |
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| n0ano | well, we're aproaching the top of the hour, unless there are any last minute issues | 15:56 |
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| n0ano | hearing silence, I'll thank everyone and we'll talk again next week | 15:57 |
| n0ano | #endmeeting | 15:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:57 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jan 7 15:57:53 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:57 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2014/scheduler.2014-01-07-15.00.html | 15:57 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2014/scheduler.2014-01-07-15.00.txt | 15:57 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2014/scheduler.2014-01-07-15.00.log.html | 15:57 |
| alaski | thanks | 15:58 |
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| primeministerp | #startmeeting | 16:01 |
| openstack | primeministerp: Error: A meeting name is required, e.g., '#startmeeting Marketing Committee' | 16:01 |
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| primeministerp | #startmeeting hyper-v | 16:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jan 7 16:01:24 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is primeministerp. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: hyper-v)" | 16:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'hyper_v' | 16:01 |
| primeministerp | hey all | 16:01 |
| primeministerp | hope everyone had a good holiday break | 16:01 |
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| primeministerp | couple updates, currently finalizing or ci run, so hopefully that will be active today or tomorrow. | 16:02 |
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| primeministerp | out side of that, all of us on the hyper-v side are pretty much heads down trying to finalize the ci infra and automation | 16:03 |
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| primeministerp | some others are travelling | 16:04 |
| primeministerp | we'll end for now w/ more updates next week | 16:04 |
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| primeministerp | #endmeeting | 16:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:04 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jan 7 16:04:29 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:04 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2014/hyper_v.2014-01-07-16.01.html | 16:04 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2014/hyper_v.2014-01-07-16.01.txt | 16:04 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2014/hyper_v.2014-01-07-16.01.log.html | 16:04 |
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| joel_c | is there a murano meeting today? | 17:10 |
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| gokrokve | Hi joel_c! | 17:12 |
| gokrokve | No Russia is in holidays | 17:13 |
| gokrokve | Do you have any specific questions? | 17:13 |
| jaypipes | gokrokve: you're in Mountain View :P | 17:13 |
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| gokrokve | joel_c: Yes. I missed both holidays American and Russian. Just was working all these days :-) | 17:13 |
| joel_c | gokrokve: no specific questions. | 17:13 |
| jaypipes | gokrokve: :) | 17:14 |
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| gokrokve | joel_c: OK. So lets wait for next week. | 17:14 |
| joel_c | gokrokve: it's not too late. (take a break) | 17:14 |
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| gokrokve | How are the holidays? Enjoyed good weather in Arizona? | 17:14 |
| joel_c | gokrokve: They were great. The weather couldn't be better. | 17:15 |
| gokrokve | joel_c: Cool! | 17:15 |
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| _cjones_ | ayoung, I'm trying to make use of the latest Domain driver configuration in Keystone. | 17:17 |
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| dolphm | \o/ | 17:58 |
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| henrynash | hi | 17:58 |
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| marekd | o/ | 17:58 |
| kwss | hi :) | 17:58 |
| gyee_ | \o | 17:58 |
| dolphm | ayoung bknudson gyee henrynash morganfainberg stevemar marekd: o/ | 17:59 |
| bknudson | dolphm: hi | 17:59 |
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| stevemar | o/ | 17:59 |
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| ayoung | Meeting area secure! | 17:59 |
| ayoung | henrynash, how the heck are you! | 17:59 |
| gyee_ | the intcy wintcy spider | 17:59 |
| stevemar | ayoung, thx for securing it | 17:59 |
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| henrynash | ayoung: I'm good…sort for being MIA | 18:00 |
| henrynash | sorry for being…. | 18:00 |
| dolphm | #startmeeting keystone | 18:00 |
| lbragstad | hi | 18:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jan 7 18:00:44 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is dolphm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:00 |
| dolphm | #topic Reminder: Hackathon January 15-17th @ Rackspace in San Antonio, TX | 18:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Reminder: Hackathon January 15-17th @ Rackspace in San Antonio, TX (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:00 | |
| dolphm | NEXT WEEK ^^ | 18:00 |
| stevemar | yay! | 18:00 |
| topol | o/ | 18:00 |
| dolphm | #link https://gist.github.com/dolph/5cfa70c02f5b141060c5 | 18:01 |
| stevemar | flight and hotel booked | 18:01 |
| ayoung | dolphm, Red Hat is sending me + 1.5 others | 18:01 |
| topol | I assume its warm in San Anton | 18:01 |
| dolphm | hopefully everyone interested is booked up by now | 18:01 |
| dolphm | topol: it's COLD this week :( | 18:01 |
| dolphm | topol: 15-17 F this morning | 18:01 |
| henrynash | dolphm: I'm 50-50 right now, I'll confirm in the next 48 hrs | 18:01 |
| dolphm | supposed to be 70 by end of week | 18:01 |
| ayoung | two people from Dogtag development team. One is going to be coding with us, one half with us, and also working wirth Barbican folks | 18:02 |
| topol | find us good places to eat and I'll be fine | 18:02 |
| dolphm | #link https://www.google.com/search?q=weather+78259&oq=weather+78259 | 18:02 |
| dolphm | weather ^ | 18:02 |
| stevemar | dolphm, i'm at -17F today, it'll be a welcome change | 18:02 |
| ayoung | We have space for how many people? | 18:02 |
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| stevemar | gyee, are you in? | 18:02 |
| dolphm | ayoung: working on getting a room finalized today/tomorrow... wednesday is apparently a really busy day for this kind of thing | 18:02 |
| topol | whats the dress code at rackspace. Yes Im always the nerd who asks that question | 18:03 |
| gyee_ | stevemar, no, I don't have the approval | 18:03 |
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| ayoung | topol, pants are required | 18:03 |
| * gyee_ is sad | 18:03 | |
| dolphm | topol: tshirt and jeans? | 18:03 |
| stevemar | any hp folk coming? | 18:03 |
| dolphm | snuggies | 18:03 |
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| ayoung | This is texas. | 18:03 |
| ayoung | Jeans are formal wear | 18:03 |
| stevemar | pants are always a good call | 18:03 |
| dolphm | ayoung: ++ | 18:03 |
| ayoung | Spurs optional. | 18:03 |
| gyee_ | stevemar, none from our team | 18:03 |
| stevemar | gyee_, boo | 18:03 |
| ayoung | Minimum belt buckle size requirements have been relaxed for out-of-towners, though. | 18:04 |
| dolphm | we'll have some PhD students from university of texas san antonio dropping in -- they're interested in contributing ABAC | 18:04 |
| topol | ayoung, /me thank god! | 18:04 |
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| dwchadwick | hi everyone | 18:05 |
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| kwss | hi | 18:05 |
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| ayoung | dwchadwick, kwss we are just getting through the Hackathon admin things first... | 18:05 |
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| ayoung | is everyone staying at the Courtyard ? | 18:06 |
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| topol | ayoung, I am. And will have a rental | 18:06 |
| ayoung | http://www.marriott.com/hotels/travel/satca-courtyard-san-antonio-airport/ | 18:06 |
| dolphm | #action if you're attending for sure, and haven't already, give me a poke so i have a rough head count / list of names to leave at the front desk | 18:07 |
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| dolphm | it sounds like we'll have a room right at the main entrance, so it'll be VERY easy for everyone to find | 18:07 |
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| dolphm | i'll keep the gist up to date with anything new | 18:08 |
| ayoung | dolphm, got an estimated head count? | 18:08 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: a LOT of people are planning on dropping in at some point... i need to put together a list of everyone that will be here all 3 days though | 18:09 |
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| dolphm | #topic Changes to keystone-core | 18:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Changes to keystone-core (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:10 | |
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| dolphm | Our review queue is painfully long, I think that's a given! | 18:10 |
| topol | one rule at the hackathon. No one is allowed to mention Army has lost to Navy 12 years in a row | 18:10 |
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| dolphm | in reviewing the current members of keystone-core, we've got several people that haven't participated lately, so I'll be cleaning them out in favor of some new names | 18:11 |
| ayoung | topol, mention it away. I've come to acceptance on that point. | 18:11 |
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| dolphm | to be removed: Andy Smith (termie), Devin Carlen, Gabriel Hurley, and Joe Heck | 18:11 |
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| topol | ayoung, no. I refuse. Im on the Army side | 18:11 |
| dolphm | and the fun part... | 18:12 |
| dolphm | after discussing with keystone-core, effective today... | 18:12 |
| dolphm | (and with unanimous support!) | 18:12 |
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| henrynash | drum roll | 18:12 |
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| dolphm | i'll be adding Steve Martinelli (stevemar), Jamie Lennox (jamielennox), and David Stanek (dstanek)! | 18:12 |
| gyee_ | w00t! | 18:12 |
| dolphm | welcome to keystone-core! | 18:12 |
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| stevemar | woot woot | 18:13 |
| marekd | cool!! | 18:13 |
| henrynash | yeee Haaa!! | 18:13 |
| lbragstad | congrats! | 18:13 |
| stevemar | congrats jamielennox and dstanek :) | 18:13 |
| ayoung | This should come as a surprise to no one. They are all doing great things. | 18:13 |
| dolphm | unfortunately dstanek is teaching a python class somewhere in the frozen north today lol | 18:13 |
| gyee_ | amen brother! | 18:13 |
| dolphm | ayoung: ++ | 18:13 |
| henrynash | ayoung: seconded | 18:13 |
| topol | stevemar, jamielennox, dstanek EXTREMELY WELL DESERVED. CONGRATULATIONS | 18:13 |
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| ayoung | Note that the addition of core members is a very selfish decision. It is an Ack that we need more help. | 18:14 |
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| jamielennox | ah, shucks guys | 18:14 |
| ayoung | I see it as a fait-accompli, as I've treated opinions from these guys bascially like core for a while now. But good to have the public acknowledgment. And the +2 / -2 ability. | 18:15 |
| dolphm | it'll take me a bit to make the changes in a few places, but if you don't have +2 / -2 by end of day, give me a poke | 18:16 |
| dolphm | because i probably did something wrong | 18:16 |
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| dolphm | #topic Federation | 18:17 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Federation (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:17 | |
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| dolphm | ayoung: (i believe you added this today) floor is yours | 18:17 |
| topol | dolphm, can you send a formal email regarding the new core members. It helps for me to send those notes around | 18:17 |
| dolphm | topol: of course | 18:17 |
| ayoung | Yeah, lates last week | 18:17 |
| ayoung | OK, so Federation is getting a lot of attention, and we need to get it right. | 18:17 |
| ayoung | the biggest issue is the public APIs | 18:17 |
| gyee_ | topol, just give stevemar that bonus he deserves! :) | 18:18 |
| ayoung | heh | 18:18 |
| stevemar | gyee_ ++ | 18:18 |
| ayoung | lets start with this | 18:18 |
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| atiwari | ayoung, not just public API but some data model changed needed | 18:18 |
| ayoung | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/62417/ | 18:18 |
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| ayoung | atiwari, its all important, but API definitions are going to be froZen in i2 Time | 18:19 |
| ayoung | so we need to clear this up now. Fixes can come after that | 18:19 |
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| atiwari | ayoung, that is true I have requested to add optional domain_id in IdP API | 18:20 |
| ayoung | kwss, dwchadwick we've had the side conversation about the "method" = federated | 18:20 |
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| ayoung | versus | 18:20 |
| ayoung | "method" = SAML etc | 18:20 |
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| dwchadwick | correct. And we propose a common method for all federated protocols | 18:20 |
| gyee_ | ayoung, federation deals with authentication | 18:20 |
| ayoung | Pretty certain method=federated is based on some bad assumptions | 18:20 |
| ayoung | first | 18:21 |
| ayoung | I think that we can say that all of the federated API docs follow the same rules | 18:21 |
| gyee_ | authn plugin deals with authentication | 18:21 |
| ayoung | there is not going to be a "SAML" implementation that is *not* federated | 18:21 |
| dwchadwick | first bad assumption of ayoung. Federation = auth. No. federation = authn + authz | 18:21 |
| ayoung | commonality of functionality is at the implementation level, not the API | 18:22 |
| gyee_ | dwchadwick, authz is is openstack-specific | 18:22 |
| ayoung | dwchadwick, I didn't say that, gyee_ did. | 18:22 |
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| ayoung | in this case, federation is an way of getting in authZ attributes | 18:22 |
| dwchadwick | correct | 18:22 |
| ayoung | authentication is a subset of that. | 18:22 |
| gyee_ | federation establishes an identity and that's it | 18:22 |
| ayoung | gyee_, nope | 18:22 |
| dwchadwick | correct | 18:22 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: i don't think they're "bad" assumptions - just slightly too specific for the API layer (?) | 18:22 |
| ayoung | it also provides additional attributes used to make authZ decisions, and that is critical to understand | 18:23 |
| dwchadwick | and an identity (= set of attributes) is used for authz by Openstack services | 18:23 |
| dolphm | it's also a superficial issue, IMO | 18:23 |
| atiwari | dwchadwick, I think Authz can be derived from federation | 18:23 |
| dwchadwick | agreed | 18:23 |
| ayoung | dolphm, my ideal would be to do Federation without any new APIs | 18:24 |
| dolphm | atiwari: i don't think anyone disagrees there | 18:24 |
| dwchadwick | but federation is essentially about managing trust in third parties | 18:24 |
| atiwari | good | 18:24 |
| ayoung | and I think that it is possible to do that | 18:24 |
| dolphm | ayoung: that's my train of thought as well -- but i haven't thought it all the way through yet | 18:24 |
| ayoung | for example, if we front Keystone with mod_auth_mellon, what we end up with is just a new set of attributes passed to the keystone layer | 18:24 |
| dwchadwick | so we have one method for managing the trust, and it is called federated but we can call it something else if the name bugs you | 18:24 |
| atiwari | question, what about openId connect which has Authz as based component | 18:24 |
| topol | So I have been talking to lots of customers on this topic. We need to work with saml and openid connect as both are pervasive | 18:25 |
| ayoung | atiwari, good question, but can you hold it for a moment? | 18:25 |
| ayoung | let me talk through SAML first, and then we'll talk openid | 18:25 |
| topol | atiwari ++ exactly | 18:25 |
| atiwari | sure | 18:25 |
| dwchadwick | topol - agreed | 18:25 |
| ayoung | agreed, and I think the answers to one will cover the other | 18:25 |
| dwchadwick | topol - plus you need to allow for the next big protocol as well (such as ABFAB maybe) | 18:25 |
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| dwchadwick | ayoung - disagree. Dont talk about SAML only | 18:26 |
| ayoung | I've been critical of the token request format for a while. I'd like to | 18:26 |
| ayoung | dwchadwick, we will, one thing at a time | 18:26 |
| ayoung | I'd like to focus on using the existing mechanism of the web for authentication where possible | 18:26 |
| ayoung | SAML kindof blurs that | 18:27 |
| ayoung | in that it sort of does cryptographically secure authentication. But we don't want to implement that in Keystone. Too hard to get right. What we want | 18:27 |
| ayoung | is to consume it | 18:27 |
| dwchadwick | but we are not talking simply authn (as un/pw does that) | 18:27 |
| ayoung | dwchadwick, understood. | 18:27 |
| dwchadwick | we are talking federation which includes authz as well | 18:27 |
| gyee_ | we talking about the one-line impl? | 18:27 |
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| ayoung | so ideally we would configure Apache (or other) to do all of the SAML work, and then Keystone responsibilites would start at the mapping layer | 18:28 |
| dwchadwick | gyee - the one line implementation is that is needed on top of the trust management | 18:28 |
| ayoung | which is why I wanted to focus on that BP first | 18:28 |
| dwchadwick | ayoung - wrong. Mapping comes after trust management | 18:28 |
| ayoung | So, first question, do we absolutely even need a new API for token request? | 18:29 |
| gyee_ | no | 18:29 |
| gyee_ | not with the apache approach | 18:29 |
| ayoung | dwchadwick, trust setup would happen before token request | 18:29 |
| dwchadwick | agreed | 18:29 |
| atiwari | +2 | 18:29 |
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| dwchadwick | trust setup = setting trust policies | 18:29 |
| gyee_ | that setup would be just like an external auth | 18:29 |
| ayoung | now, there is a question about how dynamic the apache approach would be. | 18:30 |
| dwchadwick | trust setup does not equal validating the attributes that you are presented with | 18:30 |
| ayoung | dwchadwick, define trust set up, please? | 18:30 |
| gyee_ | keystone trust IdP | 18:30 |
| dwchadwick | configuring the IDPs that you trust | 18:30 |
| ayoung | Or, actually | 18:30 |
| ayoung | ok | 18:30 |
| marekd | ayoung: afaik not as dynamic as we would like to have, but sufficiently dynamic for now :-) | 18:30 |
| dwchadwick | configuring the attributes you trust IDPs to issue | 18:30 |
| ayoung | so we have APIs for those progressing, right? | 18:31 |
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| atiwari | I think it is meta data needed at ST for trust IdP | 18:31 |
| dwchadwick | configuring the mapping of these attributes into keystone authz properties | 18:31 |
| ayoung | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/62604/ | 18:31 |
| ayoung | for example. Now, that is specific to SAML. | 18:31 |
| dolphm | the apache + mod_shib/mod_melon + IdP + protocol + mapping approach effectively creates a new route to produce openstack tokens | 18:32 |
| dwchadwick | Ayoung - what do you trust Apache front end to do. That is the 1000 dollar question | 18:32 |
| gyee_ | if we are using apache approach, all those APIs are not required | 18:32 |
| dolphm | so, it's a new API, but there's no "identity API" spec for the request, beyond the URL that apache is protecting | 18:32 |
| stevemar | gyee_ i believe so | 18:32 |
| gyee_ | apache + mapping, and we are done with the first round | 18:33 |
| dwchadwick | gyee. they are not required if you trust apache to do everything. you dont even need attribute mapping | 18:33 |
| gyee_ | you still need attribute map | 18:33 |
| gyee_ | apache will return attributes in env vars | 18:33 |
| ayoung | dwchadwick, dolphm, I would guess it would need to work something like this: Apache is set up to accept a broad band of authentication sources (IdPs) and validate that the documesnt are authenticat (all the crypto heavy lifting) and then Keystone would take the aenv vars it is passed and say "yes, these pass my policy" or "no, we don't accep[t from that IdP" | 18:33 |
| atiwari | guys, that is why I was asking for an architectural diagram so that every know what we are working on | 18:33 |
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| stevemar | gyee, that is what i thought | 18:34 |
| topol | atiwari ++ | 18:34 |
| ayoung | atiwari, I feel your pain. But that is what we are trying to nail down here. | 18:34 |
| dolphm | in the mod_mellon case, you'd just configure mod_mellon to protect GET /v3/OS-FEDERATION/identity_providers/cern/protocols/saml2 with a configuration for cern + saml2, and keystone then knows what mapping to apply to the response, and output an authz'd token | 18:34 |
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| dolphm | mod_shib works similarly | 18:34 |
| dolphm | https://code.google.com/p/modmellon/wiki/GenericSetup | 18:34 |
| gyee_ | yep | 18:35 |
| ayoung | dolphm, so adding a new IdP would be a change to Apache config. It would require an apache restart | 18:35 |
| bknudson | how does keystone know? is the mapping in a config file or keystone api? | 18:35 |
| ayoung | bknudson, mapping API is also under review. | 18:35 |
| dwchadwick | Noone has yet answered the 1000 dollar question. Come on guys. What do you trust Apache to do | 18:35 |
| dolphm | ayoung: yes | 18:35 |
| gyee_ | bknudson, in theory, mapping can be just middleware | 18:35 |
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| ayoung | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/identity-api,n,z | 18:36 |
| atiwari | ayoung +1, it has to be dynamic | 18:36 |
| dolphm | gyee_: it's in review as middleware today | 18:36 |
| dolphm | atiwari: eventually | 18:36 |
| gyee_ | dolphm, alrighty then | 18:36 |
| dolphm | dwchadwick: why not trust an existing implementation to take care of a bunch of fragile work? | 18:36 |
| ayoung | atiwari, I hear you. Its just that I don't think we can get there in Icehouse | 18:36 |
| dolphm | dwchadwick: why NOT leverage that? | 18:36 |
| dolphm | ayoung: ++ | 18:36 |
| ayoung | dwchadwick, I trust Apache to validate a SAML assertion and provide the attributes to Keystone. | 18:37 |
| dwchadwick | you can if you are sure that it does the job properly. | 18:37 |
| dwchadwick | ayoung. That is not enough | 18:37 |
| marekd | dwchadwick: in general i trust every parameter mod_shib provides me with... | 18:37 |
| bknudson | I'd trust existing and deployed apache code over code that hasn't been written. | 18:37 |
| atiwari | ayoung and dolphm at least we can add optional domain_id in IdP config | 18:37 |
| ayoung | dwchadwick, agreed. That is why we take those attributes and post process them in the mapping layer. | 18:37 |
| atiwari | so that other use case can be supported | 18:37 |
| dwchadwick | today I can send attributes from my trusted IDP to apache and have it trust them even though it should not | 18:38 |
| kwss | so we move the trust management and call it on all methods of authn removing the need for a specific plugin? | 18:38 |
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| ayoung | dwchadwick, if Apache sends along a variable that says "these attributes were verified by IdP=X we can then have the mapping layer say "but IdP=X can't assert those variables" | 18:39 |
| marekd | dwchadwick: by default apache modules let you configure a very simple map of accepted attributes. | 18:39 |
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| ayoung | dwchadwick, understand, we've shifted a bit from a "eventual design" to "what can be done in icehouse time" mindset here. | 18:40 |
| ayoung | We can always do more in the future. | 18:40 |
| gyee_ | that's the slogan | 18:40 |
| gyee_ | :) | 18:40 |
| ayoung | what is the term MVP? Minimal Viable Product? | 18:40 |
| dwchadwick | Given that we have already implemented the current design, then why dont you think it can be ready for icehouse | 18:40 |
| gyee_ | "We can always do more in the future." | 18:40 |
| bknudson | dwchadwick: is the implementation posted somewhere? | 18:41 |
| dwchadwick | yes has been for about a week now | 18:41 |
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| dwchadwick | its about 700 lines long. Its the first proof of concept | 18:41 |
| dolphm | bknudson: ++ | 18:41 |
| dwchadwick | I think the team here can easily make it perfect for icehouse | 18:42 |
| kwss | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/64454/ | 18:42 |
| gyee_ | perfect is a big word | 18:42 |
| dwchadwick | good enough then | 18:42 |
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| dwchadwick | your MVP requires an Apache front end, which some institutions have already rejected | 18:43 |
| dwchadwick | e.g. Brazil has an operational system based on our design and a mixture of their own code and ours | 18:44 |
| atiwari | dwchadwick ++ | 18:44 |
| marekd | but this code stil relies that the input is a JSON request, something like https://review.openstack.org/#/c/62604/, right? | 18:44 |
| dolphm | dwchadwick: out of curiousity, rejected on what basis? | 18:44 |
| jamielennox | dwchadwick: i think apache is more about what we can use now - if there becomes a wsgi middleware for handling all this then it can be added to the mix later | 18:44 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: ++ | 18:45 |
| dwchadwick | on a basis of trust management and hops in the chain. Apache is an overhead they dont want | 18:45 |
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| atiwari | Apache need static configuration which is not scalable | 18:45 |
| ayoung | dwchadwick, in your review above, how is the SAML document validated? | 18:46 |
| ayoung | kwss, that question is actually for you | 18:46 |
| dwchadwick | It uses pySAML code, which was not written by us but it publicly available | 18:46 |
| kwss | the saml protocol handing module is not in that review, only the apache2 module which expects prevalidated attributes from the apache module | 18:47 |
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| marekd | kwss: module like mod_mellon, mod_shib? | 18:47 |
| kwss | yes | 18:47 |
| ayoung | right...so pySAML is doing crypto in Python? Or calls to the OpenSSL librarites? | 18:47 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: pySAML uses m2crypto | 18:48 |
| gyee_ | ha | 18:48 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, is that acceptable? | 18:48 |
| marekd | kwss: so, why would you need some parameters like phase {negotiation, validation} and so on? mod_shib does everything as far as i am concerned. | 18:48 |
| ayoung | dwchadwick, there are performance issues around crypto and python, exacerbated by Eventlet. | 18:48 |
| dwchadwick | marekd - correct if you have the apache front end | 18:48 |
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| kwss | the other phases are for using the same mechanism for other protocols | 18:49 |
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| dwchadwick | we have published performance results in our paper, and pySAML works perfectly well | 18:49 |
| marekd | dwchadwick: kwss mentioned she expects validated attributes from apache module...maybe i am misunderstandind something.. | 18:49 |
| dolphm | ayoung: that's your ball park :P | 18:49 |
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| dolphm | it's not a blocker for me | 18:49 |
| dwchadwick | marek. If Apache does the saml protocol, then it simply passes the attributes to Keystone for trust management | 18:50 |
| dolphm | but i'm easily edumacatable | 18:50 |
| dwchadwick | if pysaml does the saml protocol, then we dont need an Apache front end | 18:50 |
| ayoung | OK...so we would want to make it transparent to the user. They should know that they are using SAML, but not know what Keystone is doing | 18:50 |
| * gyee_ looks up the word edumacatable | 18:50 | |
| ayoung | the request should look the same regardless | 18:50 |
| topol | ayoung +1 | 18:50 |
| dolphm | gyee_: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=edumacated | 18:50 |
| ayoung | so there should not be an explicit apache2 | 18:50 |
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| gyee_ | haha | 18:51 |
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| dwchadwick | the request will always look the same to the end user since they will be talking to their own IDP to authenticate | 18:51 |
| dwchadwick | end users dont see underlying protocol exchanges | 18:51 |
| ayoung | dwchadwick, I mean the JSON document that is passed to keystone to get a token. | 18:51 |
| ayoung | dwchadwick, yes they do | 18:51 |
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| atiwari | ayoung, JSON comes between apache and keystone | 18:52 |
| dwchadwick | the JSON doc is standardised to be the same regardless of the federation protocol or whether Apache is in the picture or not | 18:52 |
| atiwari | user will not see the JSON | 18:52 |
| ayoung | dwchadwick, remember, that we can't even say for certain that the user is using the python-keystoneclient. All of these APIs need to be acallable from third party implementations | 18:52 |
| dwchadwick | this is the feature of our design - its protocol independent federation | 18:52 |
| dolphm | where does JSON come into play? in the apache + mod_shib / mod_mellon case, there's no JSON at all | 18:53 |
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| ayoung | ain't no such critter | 18:53 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, there would still be a JSON document passed to the auth controller. | 18:53 |
| dwchadwick | Its simple. There is an Apache page that converts the headers into a json doc in the standard format | 18:53 |
| ayoung | I mean, I would love to get rid of that | 18:53 |
| ayoung | dwchadwick, ahhh | 18:54 |
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| ayoung | mod_rewrite type logic.... | 18:54 |
| dwchadwick | yes | 18:54 |
| dolphm | ayoung: okay i think i follow... but it would never be serialized JSON.. it's just a python dict being passed to auth? | 18:54 |
| dolphm | or to the token backend? | 18:54 |
| marekd | dwchadwick: so you want to make apache httpd communicate with standalone keystone over the network, right? | 18:54 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, up until now I was thinking env vars passed through. | 18:54 |
| dwchadwick | i thought it already did that | 18:54 |
| ayoung | dwchadwick, "over the network" no | 18:55 |
| ayoung | its assumed to be a local call | 18:55 |
| dolphm | ayoung: ++ they do. the mapping picks up env vars and converts them into something that existing code can produce a token based on | 18:55 |
| dolphm | ayoung: like, a pre-auth'd auth request | 18:55 |
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| dolphm | EXTERNAL_USER-style | 18:55 |
| dwchadwick | Kristy is just now getting an APache front end up so that we can learn more about using it, as it is not something we have used so far | 18:55 |
| dwchadwick | we use Apache to run SAML IDPs and SPs, but not to front Keystone | 18:56 |
| dwchadwick | Sorry I must go now for my personal appointment | 18:56 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, dwchadwick I think I need a bit to process this, but I'm not certain it changes anything. I don't love the mod_rewrite approach. | 18:56 |
| dolphm | dwchadwick: same sort of advantage when you're fronting keystone, not to mention the performance gains over keystonea-ll | 18:56 |
| ayoung | dwchadwick, thanks for your time.... | 18:56 |
| dolphm | ayoung: ++ i'd like to review both side by side in the mean time -- they're both viable approaches and if we have a head start on a better long term solution, it certainly deserves consideration for icehouse | 18:57 |
| dolphm | let's evaluate in review, and pick it up next time! | 18:57 |
| dolphm | (< 1 min left) | 18:57 |
| topol | dolphm ++ | 18:57 |
| ayoung | dolphm, still don't need moehod=federated | 18:58 |
| ayoung | method | 18:58 |
| ayoung | kwss, can you stick around in #openstack-dev? | 18:58 |
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| kwss | ayoung: yea no problem | 18:58 |
| gyee_ | dolphm, ++, we like the Republican's, a big tent | 18:58 |
| dolphm | #endmeeting | 18:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:58 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jan 7 18:58:50 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:58 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-01-07-18.00.html | 18:58 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-01-07-18.00.txt | 18:58 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-01-07-18.00.log.html | 18:58 |
| dolphm | gyee_: i don't even know what that means | 18:59 |
| ayoung | henrynash, you too? | 18:59 |
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| henrynash | ayoung: sorry, gotta duck out, but will be back on later | 18:59 |
| ayoung | henrynash, OK. I need to talk with you | 19:00 |
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| fungi | infra time? | 19:00 |
| henrynash | ayoung: OK | 19:00 |
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| fungi | i know we're probably short clarkb, jeblair, pleia2, anteaya... | 19:02 |
| fungi | i can chair a meeting if anybody has things to discuss | 19:02 |
| * fungi checks the agenda | 19:02 | |
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| * olaph coughs | 19:02 | |
| fungi | we have agenda items for mordred, hub_cap, lifeless, pleia2, SergeyLukjanov, zaro, clarkb and pabelanger | 19:02 |
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| fungi | i'll just do this... | 19:03 |
| SergeyLukjanov | fungi, hi | 19:04 |
| fungi | #startmeeting infra | 19:04 |
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| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jan 7 19:04:07 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is fungi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:04 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:04 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:04 |
| fungi | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 19:04 |
| SergeyLukjanov | fungi, absolutely no updates from my side - holidays and vacation | 19:04 |
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| fungi | SergeyLukjanov: yeah, i think i'm probably going to end this meeting *very* early, just going through the motions so we ahve a log published for the curious | 19:05 |
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| fungi | #topic Actions from last meeting | 19:06 |
| fungi | weird... no topic line update? | 19:06 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:06 | |
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| fungi | fungi: move tarballs.o.o to static.o.o | 19:07 |
| fungi | that happened | 19:07 |
| fungi | no other outstanding action items listed at... | 19:07 |
| fungi | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-12-17-19.02.html | 19:07 |
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| fungi | none of the people pinged from the agenda have piped up, except SergeyLukjanov who has no new updates, so... | 19:08 |
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| fungi | #topic Open discussion | 19:08 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:08 | |
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| fungi | anybody have anything else of importance? | 19:09 |
| zaro | sounds pretty quiet | 19:09 |
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| fungi | oh, we have zaro | 19:09 |
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| zaro | cool, open discussion for next 45mins? | 19:10 |
| fungi | zaro: want to give any updates on "Jenkins 1.540 upgrade" or "Maven clouddoc plugin move" or "Private gerrit for security reviews" or "Upgrade gerrit" for posterity? | 19:10 |
| fungi | or just save updates for next week when there are more people not traveling | 19:10 |
| zaro | ++ | 19:10 |
| * fungi is fine either way | 19:10 | |
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| fungi | i think open discussion for the next 5 minutes, and then i end the meeting if nobody shows up with anything urgent | 19:11 |
| fungi | because various stuff and things are broken, and i'd like to get back to fixing them | 19:11 |
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| SlickNik | Hey guys. I just want to give a quick update the trove-tempest work. Though hub_cap may have covered this already. | 19:12 |
| SlickNik | I'm still working on the image-building. | 19:12 |
| fungi | and also i have a conference call i need to jump on at 20:00 utc | 19:12 |
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| SlickNik | But have various patches to the infra config and devstack/devstack-gate repos to enable the tempest run for trove. | 19:13 |
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| fungi | SlickNik: awesome | 19:13 |
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| SlickNik | That should allow us to at least get started writing API / Taskmanager /Conductor tests which don't rely on the guest agent. | 19:13 |
| fungi | SlickNik: you should update the agenda and put your slick nick on there in place of (or in addition to) mordred and hub_cap | 19:13 |
| fungi | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 19:14 |
| SlickNik | fungi: will do | 19:14 |
| fungi | that way we'll ping you next time we discuss it | 19:14 |
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| SlickNik | Here are the patches I am talking about: | 19:14 |
| SlickNik | hhttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/65065/ | 19:14 |
| SlickNik | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/65040/ | 19:14 |
| SlickNik | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/64913/ | 19:14 |
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| SlickNik | Feel free to review them at your convenience. | 19:15 |
| fungi | #topic Trove testing | 19:15 |
| SlickNik | Will keep you posted with progress. | 19:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Trove testing (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:15 | |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/65065/ | 19:15 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/65040/ | 19:15 |
| fungi | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/64913/ | 19:15 |
| SlickNik | thanks fungi | 19:15 |
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| SlickNik | That's all I had. | 19:15 |
| fungi | i think i have those starred already, so hopefully i'll get to them soonish | 19:16 |
| fungi | #topic Open discussion | 19:16 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:16 | |
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| SlickNik | No worries, not blocked or anything, so when you have some time. | 19:16 |
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| fungi | other items of note... we have two new jenkins masters (jenkins03 and jenkins04) as of this morning utc, which only harbor nodepool nodes | 19:19 |
| fungi | jenkins-dev, 02, 03 and 04 are running newer 1.543 while jenkins.o.o and 01 are still on older 1.525 | 19:20 |
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| fungi | zuul seems pretty hammered by the load we're throwing at it today | 19:20 |
| fungi | nodepoold is eating a fair amount of memory--hopefully someone finds time to look into that and make sure it's kosher | 19:20 |
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| fungi | pip 1.5 and virtualenv 1.11 were released, causing some pain where tox sitepackages is enabled and for projects with requirements not hosted directly on pypi | 19:21 |
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| zaro | fungi: why not upgrade all jenkins? | 19:22 |
| fungi | zaro: we wanted to bake it in on jenkins02 initially and roll back if there were problems | 19:23 |
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| fungi | but the new masters we just spun up got the newer version. we'll plan to upgrade the remaining masters maybe this weekend or next week | 19:23 |
| fungi | i can do that with one hand tied behind my back, as long as i get a few free moments | 19:24 |
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| fungi | there's some discussing about initially curtailing the scope of voting ability for third-party ci until those systems can prove themselves | 19:24 |
| fungi | that's all the major/ongoing stuff which springs to mind. anyone with questions on those or other topics, feel free to pop into #openstack-infra | 19:25 |
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| zaro | is zuul overloaded? do we have plans to scale? | 19:28 |
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| fungi | zaro: i think it's taking a bit of a beating, but want to get jeblair to weigh in on it once he's up and had his walk in the park | 19:29 |
| fungi | the downtime for a zuul resize would be fairly disruptive, so it's something we need to consider carefully | 19:29 |
| fungi | the alternative would be building a replacement (maybe on a performance flavor instead) | 19:29 |
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| fungi | but the cutover for that also seems like it could be touchy/nontrivial so not something i'm going to embark on without support | 19:31 |
| fungi | any final requests before i call this meeting a wrap? | 19:31 |
| fungi | going once | 19:32 |
| fungi | going twice | 19:32 |
| olaph | 'bicycle race' by queen? | 19:32 |
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| * fungi wants to ride his bicycle | 19:33 | |
| fungi | #endmeeting | 19:33 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:33 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jan 7 19:33:32 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:33 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-01-07-19.04.html | 19:33 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-01-07-19.04.txt | 19:33 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-01-07-19.04.log.html | 19:33 |
| fungi | thanks everybody! | 19:33 |
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| ttx | Anyone here for the TC meeting ? | 20:00 |
| ttx | russellb, markmc, annegentle, mikal, mordred, jgriffith, vishy, markmcclain, jeblair, lifeless, sdague, dhellmann : around ? | 20:00 |
| russellb | o/ | 20:00 |
| dhellmann | here | 20:00 |
| ttx | we have 3+ members at LCA | 20:00 |
| ttx | let's see if we have quorum | 20:00 |
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| sdague | o/ | 20:02 |
| markmcclain | o/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | that makes 5, we need 2 more | 20:02 |
| mordred | o/ | 20:02 |
| vishy | o/ | 20:02 |
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| ttx | awesome | 20:02 |
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| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jan 7 20:02:44 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:02 |
| ttx | Our first meeting of 2014. how time flies | 20:02 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee | 20:03 |
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| ttx | #topic Diversity as a requirement for incubation | 20:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Diversity as a requirement for incubation (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:03 | |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-December/022546.html | 20:03 |
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| ttx | That one generated a long thread just before the holidays | 20:03 |
| ttx | Consensus generally was that we should not *require* diversity before incubation, but require it for graduation instead (options 2/3) | 20:04 |
| ttx | Steve Dake's email appeared to win the internet: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-December/022592.html | 20:04 |
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| ttx | What about 2 or 3 ? Some people prefer 2, some people prefer 3 | 20:04 |
| ttx | At this point I think requiring "letters of intent" from companies that they would contribute to project Y if it was ever incubated is a bit useless | 20:04 |
| sdague | ttx: agreed | 20:05 |
| ttx | If we think project Y is relevant, that matters more than a promise of support that might not be followed up | 20:05 |
| ttx | So I think I'm going to propose option 2 | 20:05 |
| ttx | "2. Do not require diversity for incubation, but require it for graduation, and remove projects from incubation if they fail to attract a diverse community" | 20:05 |
| ttx | I'll propose it as a patch to reference/incubation-integration-requirements | 20:05 |
| ttx | comments / thoughts ? | 20:05 |
| dhellmann | option 2 sounds best, but what do we need to change for the graduation requirements to reflect the diversity requirement there? | 20:05 |
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| dhellmann | and do we need some sort of "out" clause like what appears in option 3? | 20:06 |
| mordred | I agree with 2 | 20:06 |
| ttx | dhellmann: we need to remove the diversity requirement from the incubation part, I think | 20:06 |
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| dhellmann | sure, I mean, how do we tighten up the graduation requirements to indicate that it is still a part of graduation and that projects that fail to attract a diverse contributor base won't graduation and may lose their incubation status (after some period of time) | 20:07 |
| ttx | any project failing to meet graduation requirements can be out, no specific clause needed ? | 20:07 |
| dhellmann | we've said projects won't graduate if they don't meet the requirements, but I wasn't aware that "not graduate" might mean "might lose incubation status" | 20:07 |
| ttx | dhellmann: i think we can cover that as we visit incubation status more regularly | 20:08 |
| dhellmann | or do we not want that? | 20:08 |
| mordred | you know - we may not need to have a specific policy on that | 20:08 |
| mordred | we could come back to a project that's not gaining diversity | 20:08 |
| dhellmann | I wasn't thinking of a specific time frame, just to actually say that we may consider that action | 20:08 |
| ttx | we want that, but I think we can cover it in the "incubation" explanation wikipage | 20:08 |
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| mordred | say "hi, we think you're not gaining diversity, and if you donm't by X, we're going to delist you" | 20:08 |
| ttx | mordred: +1 | 20:08 |
| sdague | yeh +1 to that | 20:08 |
| * flaper87 sneaks in | 20:09 | |
| flaper87 | that sounds reasonable to me! | 20:09 |
| dhellmann | I guess I'm not being clear. | 20:09 |
| * mordred hands flaper87 a cookie | 20:09 | |
| ttx | dhellmann: that can be part of our "graduation requirements" feedback | 20:09 |
| dhellmann | Does anything in the process document actually say that right now? | 20:09 |
| dhellmann | ok | 20:09 |
| * flaper87 eats that cookie and the rest | 20:10 | |
| ttx | dhellmann: i'll make sure the docs cover the case and make it clear that incubation is not a permanent status | 20:10 |
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| dhellmann | ok, that's all I was looking for :-) | 20:10 |
| ttx | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/NewProjects has an arrow pointing back up. | 20:10 |
| ttx | but I'll add a sentence there :) | 20:10 |
| dhellmann | ok | 20:11 |
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| ttx | #action ttx to propose the change to reference/incubation-integration-requirements | 20:11 |
| ttx | #action ttx to make sure https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/NewProjects mentions losing incubation status as a possibility | 20:11 |
| ttx | anything else on that subject ? | 20:11 |
| mordred | nope. that sounds great | 20:12 |
| * ttx spots a few other rthings that need to be updated on that wikipage anyway | 20:12 | |
| ttx | #topic Need to recognize/bless projects pre-incubation | 20:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Need to recognize/bless projects pre-incubation (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:12 | |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-December/022202.html | 20:12 |
| ttx | This was an older thread. If we follow the direction we just decided on diversity as a requirement, I think we solve most of the chicken-and-egg issue that prompted that thread | 20:12 |
| ttx | And therefore we don't need to do anything about recognizing projects pre-incubation | 20:13 |
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| ttx | That doesn't mean we should not track Incubation/Graduation status for projects on some wiki page, though | 20:13 |
| ttx | That would not count as "blessing", but would provide easy(ier) reference for all people tracking progress | 20:13 |
| mordred | ++ | 20:13 |
| ttx | does that make sense ? | 20:13 |
| jgriffith | Do we want formal checkpoints for this as well? | 20:13 |
| mordred | or, in a yaml file somewhere so that it's parseable and stuff | 20:13 |
| jgriffith | ie like each milestone.. | 20:14 |
| flaper87 | ++ | 20:14 |
| dhellmann | yeah, maybe in the governance repo? we need to vote on the status anyway, right? | 20:14 |
| sdague | jgriffith: checkpoints would be good | 20:14 |
| flaper87 | erm, ttx ++ | 20:14 |
| ttx | mordred: status is actually in the latest projects.yaml change I proposed | 20:14 |
| ttx | dhellmann: ^ | 20:14 |
| mordred | ++ | 20:14 |
| ttx | vishy: you mentioned to me being interested in having such a reference. Would a wiki page work for you as a tracking tool ? | 20:14 |
| * jgriffith fears another hidden wiki page | 20:15 | |
| ttx | mordred: still, gathering our feedback and list of graduation or incubation requirements in some wikipage has some educational value | 20:15 |
| ttx | or would you rather have it on some governance file ? | 20:15 |
| vishy | yes | 20:16 |
| * ttx prefers wikipage because it's less like an endorsement | 20:16 | |
| vishy | or actually i would prefer to just add the extra info the existing page | 20:16 |
| ttx | just some "incubation/graduation status" page | 20:16 |
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| ttx | vishy: the existign page is likely to be replaced by one of the autogenerated pages though | 20:17 |
| ttx | (next topic) | 20:17 |
| * annegentle_ sneaks into the back row and sits | 20:17 | |
| ttx | anyway, I think we can solve that as we get better at publishing governance docs | 20:17 |
| sdague | yeh, agreed, I actually think if we start using the repo instead of the wiki, finding things is going to be simpler | 20:18 |
| ttx | things will fall naturally into place as we begin autopublishing | 20:18 |
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| ttx | which brings us to our next topic | 20:18 |
| ttx | unless someone has something to add to this one | 20:18 |
| * ttx waits for the mandatory minute of lag | 20:19 | |
| ttx | #topic Governance docs publication | 20:20 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Governance docs publication (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:20 | |
| ttx | So... we need to auto-publish governance docs so that a human-readable version can be found on some webserver | 20:20 |
| ttx | Question is.. where and how. Sean originally started to work on this at: | 20:20 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/61380/ | 20:20 |
| ttx | Then Anne questioned this approach at: | 20:20 |
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| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-tc/2013-December/000462.html | 20:20 |
| ttx | That thread reached consensus that publication to a website (with clear links to the repo) was the right solution... | 20:20 |
| ttx | ...but there was still disagreement that docs.openstack.org was the right host for that. | 20:21 |
| ttx | Suggestions included www.o.o/governance, www.o.o/tc/governance... but at this point www.o.o is not under our direct control yet | 20:21 |
| jbryce | are the artifacts going to be primarily static markup files? | 20:21 |
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| jbryce | html etc | 20:21 |
| ttx | We could easily use governance.o.o or some other subdomain, though | 20:21 |
| sdague | jbryce: yes | 20:21 |
| ttx | jbryce: I think so, yes. sdague ? | 20:21 |
| ttx | ok | 20:21 |
| mordred | works for me | 20:22 |
| jbryce | we can create a user on www that gives you access to drop files into a subdirectory | 20:22 |
| annegentle_ | jbryce: so far they're just text, https://github.com/openstack/governance/blob/master/reference/incubation-integration-requirements | 20:22 |
| sdague | jbryce: it's basically a very similar publisher to how the development docs go on docs.openstack.org | 20:22 |
| sdague | rst -> html | 20:22 |
| ttx | annegentle, sdague: had a question about that, actually: | 20:22 |
| jbryce | sdague: ok, got it | 20:22 |
| ttx | annegentle_, sdague: Can we add some transformation so that, for example, the project.yaml file can be turned into a set of HTML files describing programs and their contents ? | 20:22 |
| dhellmann | ttx: we can write a sphinx extension to do that | 20:22 |
| ttx | (this question is probably dead stupid) | 20:22 |
| ttx | dhellmann: ok | 20:23 |
| sdague | yeh, seems like we'd just need some preprocessor | 20:23 |
| sdague | but I think that's futures. I think step one is the getting anything publishing, then we can expand | 20:23 |
| dhellmann | +1 | 20:23 |
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| sdague | the current review is just a doc build, it's not a publish | 20:23 |
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| ttx | jbryce: so we could potentially opublish somewhere on www.o.o ? | 20:23 |
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| jbryce | yep. we have /foundation/tech-committee already and we could create a subdir under that for you to drop files in | 20:24 |
| sdague | the publish we'd have to work out as an infra job, to a target | 20:24 |
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| annegentle_ | jbryce: is that subdir accessible via ftp or? | 20:24 |
| ttx | annegentle_: would that URL work for you ? | 20:24 |
| jbryce | yes, but i'd prefer sftp = ) | 20:24 |
| annegentle_ | I'm fine with anything but docs.openstack.org :) | 20:24 |
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| mordred | jbryce: we'd prefer sftp too :) | 20:24 |
| annegentle_ | jbryce: yeah sftp is good | 20:25 |
| sdague | yeh, it will mean giving infra root the password, and some assist on the publish job there | 20:25 |
| sdague | but I think we can sort that offline | 20:25 |
| jbryce | sounds good | 20:25 |
| ttx | ok, cool | 20:25 |
| ttx | sdague: are we unblocked ? | 20:26 |
| annegentle_ | jbryce: is http://www.openstack.org/foundation/governance ok? for one less nest? | 20:26 |
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| ttx | annegentle_: /foundation/tech-committee | 20:26 |
| sdague | ttx: ask annegentle_, she has the -1 on the review :) | 20:26 |
| annegentle_ | ttx: yeah I'm asking if it's possible to not go under tech-committee | 20:26 |
| annegentle_ | sdague: I need the commit message amended | 20:26 |
| jbryce | i'd rather keep it with the tech-committee as there are other governance-related foundation things that wouldn't be included | 20:26 |
| annegentle_ | sdague: then I'm happy to +1 | 20:27 |
| sdague | annegentle_: I continue to be confused about that. Can you put exactly what you'd like in the commit message in a comment | 20:27 |
| annegentle_ | sdague: delete all mention of docs.openstack.org | 20:27 |
| ttx | jbryce: would www.o.o/tech-committee be an option ? | 20:27 |
| ttx | or does it have to match the top nav | 20:28 |
| annegentle_ | sdague: suggested edits on review | 20:28 |
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| jbryce | we're getting ready to refresh the foundation section and nav overall and i think it would be neater for the long term to have the hierarchy | 20:28 |
| dhellmann | are we going to try to make the theme of these docs match the theme of the rest of the site? | 20:28 |
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| ttx | annegentle_: we'd probably move the membership down to /foundation/tech-committee/members | 20:29 |
| jbryce | for instance, we can probably decorate basic markup files to add the nav/them of the website | 20:29 |
| ttx | so the rest could be published under /foundation/tech-committee directly | 20:29 |
| * dwchadwick slaps ayoung around a bit with a large trout | 20:29 | |
| jbryce | if we keep it in the hierarchy | 20:29 |
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| ayoung | smoke me a kipper | 20:29 |
| annegentle_ | jbryce: dhellmann: I'd prefer the files match the rest of that site | 20:29 |
| dhellmann | I don't think it's a good idea to have anyone else editing these files after they are published. Anything that needs to be changed should happen as part of the publishing process, in the job run on -infra | 20:30 |
| jbryce | dhellmann: i'm pretty sure we can get that for free with the hierarchy | 20:30 |
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| jbryce | dhellmann: decoration in real-time, without touching the content of the files that are transferred | 20:30 |
| sdague | ok, so there is phase 2 here for publishing that includes theming to match the foundation site | 20:31 |
| ttx | fancy | 20:31 |
| dhellmann | jbryce: ok, so we'd need to know what skeleton html format would be needed to make that work out properly | 20:31 |
| jbryce | e.g. file says <div>governance is awesome</div> and the web server adds the headers and footers when the page is served | 20:31 |
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| jbryce | dhellmann: roger | 20:31 |
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| sdague | do we have a volunteer for that, I'm afraid that will die on the vine? | 20:31 |
| ttx | lets' start by publishing the charter under /foundation/tech-committee/charter and iterate from there ? | 20:32 |
| sdague | with the existing sphinx theme? or did we just say we couldn't until we had the new templates | 20:32 |
| ttx | I think existing sphinx theme is better han no publication at all | 20:33 |
| sdague | ok | 20:33 |
| dhellmann | I agree. Creating a whole new theme is going to take some time. | 20:33 |
| jbryce | you can drop whatever you want in there and it might be easiest to start with the existing theme just to get the publishing mechanics down | 20:33 |
| ttx | we'll just not advertise that URL that much until it's clean :) | 20:33 |
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| sdague | works for me, I can continue to shephard through the existing theme publish to get the minimum working | 20:33 |
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| annegentle_ | thanks sdague | 20:33 |
| jbryce | sdague: feel free to ping me offline for the publishing piece | 20:34 |
| sdague | annegentle_: review updated | 20:34 |
| sdague | jbryce: will do. As we need infra folks, it will wait until next week when they are back to full staff | 20:34 |
| sdague | fungi is being run too rampant this week | 20:34 |
| ttx | #action sdague to drive governance autopublication step 1: get the charter autopublished under www.o.o/foundation/tech-committee/charter | 20:34 |
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| ttx | then we'll seek volunteers for the next steps | 20:35 |
| ttx | anything more on that topic ? | 20:35 |
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| ttx | (mandatory minute of lag again) | 20:36 |
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| annegentle_ | none here | 20:36 |
| ttx | let us all observe a minute of silence while the topic dies | 20:36 |
| ttx | #topic Mention scope expansion in incubation requirements | 20:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Mention scope expansion in incubation requirements (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:36 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/62612/ | 20:36 |
| ttx | That one was abandoned over the holidays | 20:36 |
| ttx | There were a few -1s about the specific language around this, with some consensus around "measured progression". | 20:37 |
| ttx | jgriffith had a -1 around the idea itself, though | 20:37 |
| ttx | Personally, I think it's good to have this in the requirements, as it gives us some leverage to reject projects "just because there are too many projects in incubation already" | 20:37 |
| ttx | Because we might need to reject projects purely on bandwidth reasons at some point, and "measured progression" is what it's about | 20:37 |
| jgriffith | ttx: I guess the problem I have is how do you enforce it? | 20:37 |
| jgriffith | ttx: it's awfully subjetive | 20:37 |
| jgriffith | subjective | 20:37 |
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| mordred | I thnk I agree with jgriffith | 20:38 |
| ttx | jgriffith: I see your point | 20:38 |
| ttx | most of the other requirements are objective | 20:38 |
| mordred | I think that we don't need to enumerate everything that we might have a subjective viewpoint on | 20:38 |
| annegentle_ | amen to bandwidth reasons | 20:38 |
| jgriffith | mordred: :) | 20:38 |
| mordred | we may make decisions basesd on bandwidth - but we may make decisions based on many htings that are judgement calls - that's why we're a body of humans | 20:39 |
| annegentle_ | but yeah we'd have to have a metric/measurement other than ttx and infra and docs are swamped :) | 20:39 |
| mordred | annegentle_: I think that's an excellent measurement | 20:39 |
| jgriffith | ttx: I suppose the more I think about *something* does need to be there for incubation | 20:39 |
| mordred | but I don't tihnk we need to pre-tell people about it | 20:39 |
| ttx | mordred: fine with dropping it as long as it's clear that incubation relies on finite resources and some perfectly-good projects might have to wait for their turn at some point | 20:39 |
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| mordred | ttx: I guess I'm just saying that we needed to be clear about the diversity thing because it became an issue for projects and a planning issue and is a real problem to solve | 20:40 |
| annegentle_ | mordred: anne's hair on fire metric | 20:40 |
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| ttx | we established that 3 in incubation and 2 new integrated projects per cycle was doable | 20:40 |
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| mordred | I'm not sure that us mentioning that we are worried about finite resources does anything to solve a problem that we currently have in communication | 20:40 |
| sdague | agreed | 20:40 |
| ttx | I'm pretty sure 6 in incubation or 4 added per cycle would be too much | 20:40 |
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| jgriffith | ttx: sdague mordred sorry... I may be confused on the intent here | 20:41 |
| ttx | agree, let's let that requirement die | 20:41 |
| mordred | jgriffith: I'm always confused | 20:41 |
| ttx | jgriffith: I think we agree with you | 20:41 |
| jgriffith | ttx: limit projects per cycle I get | 20:41 |
| jgriffith | Ok :) | 20:41 |
| jgriffith | mordred: ditto | 20:41 |
| annegentle_ | ttx: mordred: even communicating these limits could just mean a need for waitlisting, etc. Sigh. | 20:41 |
| ttx | annegentle_: and you can't really come with hard numbers. Some projects need more care than others. | 20:42 |
| annegentle_ | ttx: truth | 20:42 |
| ttx | I think it's just at some point one of us will scream | 20:42 |
| ttx | hard to predict when. | 20:43 |
| jgriffith | just a moment ago :) | 20:43 |
| mordred | yup | 20:43 |
| ttx | ok, anything more on that subject ? We'll let that change remain abandoned | 20:43 |
| ttx | maybe markmc will revive it and defend it bettert than I did | 20:43 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 20:44 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:44 | |
| ttx | Anything else, anyone ? | 20:44 |
| sdague | nothing from me | 20:45 |
| ttx | I recently proposed a project/program map into programs.yaml | 20:45 |
| ttx | which asks plenty of fun questions | 20:45 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/65096 | 20:45 |
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| ttx | like is grenade a devstack or a QA thing | 20:46 |
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| sdague | ttx: it's QA | 20:46 |
| ttx | or like is openstack/requirements a Release management or a Infra thing | 20:46 |
| sdague | that was previously established | 20:46 |
| ttx | mostly academic questions | 20:46 |
| ttx | sdague: cool, thx | 20:46 |
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| ttx | or is storyboard an infra or release management thing | 20:47 |
| ttx | so feel free to tear it apart | 20:47 |
| ttx | thera re also a number of openstack*/* projects that have no parent program | 20:47 |
| ttx | openstack-dev/openstack-qa | 20:48 |
| ttx | openstack-dev/sandbox | 20:48 |
| ttx | openstack/governance | 20:48 |
| ttx | openstack/melange | 20:48 |
| ttx | openstack/openstack | 20:48 |
| ttx | openstack/openstack-chef | 20:48 |
| annegentle_ | ttx: I like your academia | 20:48 |
| ttx | openstack/python-melangeclient | 20:48 |
| ttx | openstack/python-openstackclient | 20:48 |
| russellb | should we have an orphan section? heh | 20:48 |
| ttx | some of them may just need to die | 20:48 |
| ttx | melange/chef | 20:48 |
| annegentle_ | now ttx is killing orphans | 20:48 |
| ttx | some badly need a home (python-openstackclient) | 20:48 |
| ttx | sdague: is openstack-dev/openstack-qa a real thing ? | 20:48 |
| russellb | there is chef stuff actively developed on stackforge | 20:48 |
| mordred | actually - we've talked about melange before | 20:49 |
| mordred | and how to handle it | 20:49 |
| sdague | ttx: it's a very old artifact | 20:49 |
| mordred | because it's not a real thing anymore | 20:49 |
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| mordred | but I don't like the idea of deleting it | 20:49 |
| mordred | since it _was_ a real thing in the past | 20:49 |
| ttx | sandbox openstack/openstack and governance can stay in limbo because they are true orphans I think | 20:49 |
| jgriffith | archive grouping | 20:49 |
| mordred | openstack-chef is bonghits and can be deleted | 20:49 |
| sdague | openstack-attic | 20:49 |
| mordred | I suggested to jeblair a while back moving melange to stackforge | 20:49 |
| jgriffith | sdague: +1 | 20:49 |
| mordred | so that should anyone want to do anything with it, they could | 20:49 |
| russellb | yeah stackforge seems fine | 20:49 |
| sdague | if we want to keep stuff around, lets get it out of real namespaces | 20:50 |
| markmcclain | sdague: +1 | 20:50 |
| ttx | I'd like to have only prgram children or true orphans in openstack*/* | 20:50 |
| jgriffith | I'm not so sure how I feel about stackforge | 20:50 |
| jgriffith | but if nobody else has an issue ok by me | 20:50 |
| ttx | so that we can generally say "contributing to openstack*/* gives you ATC rights | 20:50 |
| russellb | stackforge means nothing about how active something is | 20:50 |
| russellb | or whether it's crap or not | 20:50 |
| sdague | I don't think putting dead projects on stackforge is productive | 20:50 |
| ttx | mordred: could we kill openstack-dev/sandbox while we are at it ? | 20:50 |
| jgriffith | russellb: that last point is kinda the problem I have with it :) | 20:51 |
| sdague | russellb: yeh, but lets not make it sourceforge, the home of dead projects | 20:51 |
| jgriffith | LOL | 20:51 |
| russellb | heh | 20:51 |
| ttx | don't really want commits to that to count as atc-granting | 20:51 |
| sdague | so if we know it's dead, throw it in the attic | 20:51 |
| russellb | that's funny.. | 20:51 |
| russellb | attic is fine i guess | 20:51 |
| jgriffith | now we need a basement and we'll be all set | 20:51 |
| russellb | attic can be dead stuff from openstack/ | 20:51 |
| ttx | isn't stackforge the basement ? | 20:51 |
| sdague | openstack-rootcellar | 20:52 |
| ttx | or is it the garage ? | 20:52 |
| russellb | we could create a basement for dead stackforge projects | 20:52 |
| jgriffith | ttx: shed | 20:52 |
| russellb | stackforge-basement and openstack-attic | 20:52 |
| dhellmann | sdague: beat me to it | 20:52 |
| jgriffith | russellb: LOL | 20:52 |
| ttx | I would do attic/ rather than openstack-attic, so that openstack*/ matches all "official" projects | 20:52 |
| ttx | as in atc-rights-granting | 20:53 |
| sdague | ttx: I doubt we're ok to grab github.com/attic | 20:53 |
| jgriffith | ttx: good strategy IMO | 20:53 |
| ttx | sdague: sounds risky | 20:53 |
| mordred | ttx: we use openstack-dev/sandbox | 20:53 |
| sdague | anyway, we could sort out naming offline | 20:53 |
| sdague | if we are agreed that there should be an "attic" | 20:53 |
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| russellb | wfm | 20:54 |
| ttx | sdague: bikeshedding is what open discussion is for | 20:54 |
| russellb | yeah it is fun to bikeshed | 20:54 |
| ttx | mordred: oh | 20:54 |
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| jgriffith | more bikeshedding would greatly improve the world | 20:54 |
| sdague | then I'd have all kinds of places to store my bike | 20:55 |
| jgriffith | There's always some good humor hidden there | 20:55 |
| ttx | mordred: I guess we could count sandbox as a true orphan too | 20:55 |
| jgriffith | sdague: OHHH!!! | 20:55 |
| annegentle_ | stackforge is a garage, baby | 20:55 |
| jgriffith | forget attic... "bike-shed" | 20:55 |
| ttx | btw, file extensions on .gitignore wins the openstack-dev thread of the week | 20:55 |
| jgriffith | ha! | 20:56 |
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| * jgriffith laughs.. then cries | 20:56 | |
| ttx | mordred: looking at http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-dev/sandbox/ I think nobody would miss it, but please enlighten me | 20:57 |
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| ttx | I guess that's all for today ? | 20:59 |
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| mordred | ttx: jeblair made it so that people could 'practice' with our process/tools | 20:59 |
| ttx | mordred: could it live on stackforge instead ? | 20:59 |
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| ttx | mordred: i'm fine with making it a true orphan if not | 21:00 |
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| ttx | and.. no time left | 21:00 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jan 7 21:00:56 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-01-07-20.02.html | 21:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-01-07-20.02.txt | 21:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-01-07-20.02.log.html | 21:01 |
| mordred | ttx: I see no reason it can't be in stackforge | 21:01 |
| ttx | dhellmann, dolphm, jd__, markwash, jgriffith, russellb, stevebaker, david-lyle, markmcclain, slicknik: around ? | 21:01 |
| dolphm | o/ | 21:01 |
| russellb | ohai | 21:01 |
| markmcclain | o/ | 21:01 |
| ttx | notmyname is excused, slicknick standing in for hub_cap | 21:01 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 21:01 |
| jgriffith | \o/ | 21:01 |
| ttx | (maybe) | 21:01 |
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| SlickNik | o/ | 21:01 |
| stevebaker | o/ | 21:01 |
| ttx | stevebaker: you missed our 1:1 90min ago :) | 21:02 |
| jd__ | o/ | 21:02 |
| ttx | #startmeeting project | 21:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jan 7 21:02:34 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:02 | |
| david-lyle | o/ | 21:02 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'project' | 21:02 |
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| stevebaker | ttx: I did, new irc client - still configuring alerts | 21:02 |
| ttx | stevebaker: we can do it just after this one | 21:02 |
| stevebaker | ok | 21:02 |
| ttx | #link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/ProjectMeeting | 21:02 |
| ttx | #topic Icehouse-2 | 21:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Icehouse-2 (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:03 | |
| ttx | We looked into icehouse-2 progress during the 1:1s today | 21:03 |
| ttx | only two weeks left before icehouse-2. how time flies | 21:03 |
| ttx | We are a bit late overall and I fear congestion at the gate next week | 21:03 |
| ttx | So land what you can this week :) | 21:03 |
| ttx | (if you can, eh) | 21:03 |
| russellb | dang holidays | 21:03 |
| ttx | We'll probably defer anything "not started" next Tuesday. | 21:04 |
| ttx | in other news, we ahve a few topics up for discussion | 21:04 |
| ttx | #topic Nova-network deprecation status | 21:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Nova-network deprecation status (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:04 | |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-January/023555.html | 21:04 |
| ttx | We said we'd make a final call after icehouse-2, but now is a good time to take the pulse on this | 21:04 |
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| ttx | markmcclain, russellb: what's the status at this point ? | 21:05 |
| russellb | sdague: and if you're around, QA perspective would be good too | 21:05 |
| markmcclain | we're actively working on closing the gaps from both a feature and QA side | 21:05 |
| markmcclain | we're meeting next week to sprint on Neutron/Tempest | 21:06 |
| russellb | think they'll be closed by icehouse-2? or still a ways off? | 21:06 |
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| sdague | it still feels a bit off from there to me | 21:06 |
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| ttx | there is also a general perception that built over time that make people oversensitive to the issue | 21:07 |
| sdague | my experience is it's at least 4 - 6 weeks to stabalize the parallel jobs, and those aren't lit yet | 21:07 |
| ttx | Ideally feature parity would let us keep nova-network frozen | 21:07 |
| markmcclain | yeah stabilizing the jobs has uncovered other issues | 21:07 |
| ttx | then we can wait for more confidence before marking deprecated | 21:07 |
| sdague | I don't know where we stand on the feature matches, that's just the qa side | 21:07 |
| markmcclain | which has been a good thing, but has slowed velocity down | 21:08 |
| russellb | markmcclain: how about the feature parity bits? | 21:08 |
| russellb | there really wasn't too much left there | 21:08 |
| russellb | one big thing, really | 21:08 |
| markmcclain | multi-host? | 21:08 |
| markwash | o/ | 21:08 |
| russellb | yeah | 21:08 |
| markmcclain | so still have two different groups working on it | 21:08 |
| jog0 | what about having a good open source default that scales moderately well | 21:08 |
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| ttx | jog0: do we ahve that in the nova-network case ? | 21:09 |
| markmcclain | they're working from different positions that have different payoffs (ie one gets us a good solution short term and the other pays off long term) | 21:09 |
| ttx | ("moderately scalable") | 21:09 |
| jog0 | ttx: AFIK yes | 21:09 |
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| russellb | jog0: yeah i guess that was the other thing | 21:09 |
| sdague | so salv-orlando said a bunch of the issues are ovs 1.3 | 21:09 |
| sdague | when moving to ovs 2.0 a lot of issues fixed themselves | 21:10 |
| russellb | i was actually just talking to a user yesterday saying that they were trying neutron with OVS on 200 nodes and it fell over badly | 21:10 |
| russellb | nova-network was/is fine | 21:10 |
| russellb | with havana | 21:10 |
| markmcclain | as part of the parallel testing we've been uncovering and fixing some of scaling issues | 21:10 |
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| russellb | that's good | 21:10 |
| jog0 | russellb: thats a a great benchmark to try to match here | 21:10 |
| markmcclain | OVS 2.0 is the direction to head long term | 21:10 |
| russellb | so maybe icehouse will fair better | 21:10 |
| sdague | russellb: any idea what ovs version? | 21:10 |
| markmcclain | but will require some distro support | 21:10 |
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| russellb | sdague: nope, but i can find out | 21:10 |
| russellb | whatever we have in RHEL i suspect | 21:11 |
| sdague | russellb: that would be helpful, just to get more data | 21:11 |
| russellb | and i should know the answer to that ... | 21:11 |
| ttx | russellb: there are two pieces I think... you need feature parity to keep nova-network frozen. you need performance parity / stability partity before marking it deprecated | 21:11 |
| sdague | I agree, we should have a scaling threshold | 21:11 |
| markmcclain | russellb: would love to know how their cluster fell over | 21:11 |
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| russellb | ttx: working on getting more info | 21:11 |
| russellb | err, markmcclain ^^ | 21:11 |
| russellb | will point you to info once i have it | 21:12 |
| markmcclain | ttx: so feature parity is being worked through testing | 21:12 |
| ttx | russellb: I think we may get to feature parity, but fear that perf/stability parity might be farther away, not even talking about the confidence to build around it | 21:12 |
| russellb | ttx: the problem is that we've had a *much* longer time between freeze and deprecation than is healthy | 21:12 |
| ttx | (in icehouse) | 21:12 |
| markmcclain | performance parity depends on what you're measuring | 21:13 |
| sdague | I do think all of this paints a story that isn't going to close in icehouse | 21:13 |
| russellb | so ... i'm tempted to unfreeze, and revisit a freeze (and deprecation) when we have a much better feel for when that will happen | 21:13 |
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| sdague | I think some huge strides have been made, which have been great | 21:13 |
| russellb | sdague: that's what i'm afraid of | 21:13 |
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| markmcclain | unfreezing is bad idea because it creates a moving target | 21:13 |
| ttx | yes, great progress and velocity, the track is just longer than expected | 21:13 |
| sdague | but I don't think we're going to close on all of it in icehouse, not in a way I'd feel comfortable with | 21:13 |
| jog0 | markmcclain: and the migration story (re: a doc saying if useing nova-network use this in neutron ) | 21:13 |
| dhellmann | markmcclain: +1 | 21:14 |
| ttx | russellb: how much would unfreezing really create a moving target ? what would make it in, really ? | 21:14 |
| russellb | i don't expect major work | 21:14 |
| jgriffith | just curious are there signficant proposals out there for changes to nova-net? | 21:14 |
| markmcclain | jog0: we can get those docs written | 21:14 |
| ttx | bugfixes, new features ? | 21:14 |
| russellb | but there are all kinds of things we haven't bothered doing because it was on it's way out | 21:15 |
| markmcclain | my question is that if folks want to change nova-net are they contributing to neutron? | 21:15 |
| markmcclain | if not then we're fragmenting the devs | 21:15 |
| russellb | no-db-compute is one example | 21:15 |
| russellb | and that was a couple releases ago | 21:15 |
| sdague | yeh, and I don't think it's reasonable to ask nova-network folks to work on neutron if they can't deploy it at scale in their envs. | 21:15 |
| russellb | more minor things | 21:15 |
| russellb | keeping it up to date with the rest of nova | 21:15 |
| russellb | lots of that kind of stuff we have passed on while it's frozen | 21:16 |
| ttx | markmcclain: I think russell is more talking about nova infra changes that were applied everywhere but in nova-net, like no-db-compute | 21:16 |
| sdague | honestly, I'd be +1 with the unfreeze, as I do think it's been frozen too long | 21:16 |
| russellb | mostly, yes | 21:16 |
| russellb | so maybe just a softer freeze | 21:16 |
| markmcclain | sdague: but when they don't contribute we lose that information and the problem being solve because it is not shared | 21:16 |
| russellb | like ... we don't really want *major* work on it, because that should be neutron | 21:16 |
| russellb | but we'll let smaller enhancements, and other infrastructure work to keep it up to date with the rest of nova | 21:16 |
| ttx | russellb: we could have a soft freeze (no new feature, just keep it up to date) | 21:16 |
| russellb | no major new features anyway | 21:17 |
| ttx | some of those would still count as "features" but would not widen the gap | 21:17 |
| markmcclain | moving to no db type stuff makes sense | 21:17 |
| jgriffith | russellb: but then what do "minor" enhancements buy you anyway? | 21:17 |
| ttx | like 'adopt nova new object model' | 21:17 |
| russellb | jgriffith: probably something we'd have to take case by case | 21:17 |
| jgriffith | russellb: fair | 21:17 |
| russellb | ttx: yes, that's been the biggest pain | 21:17 |
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| jgriffith | ttx: that's an example I'm not sure I fully understand | 21:18 |
| russellb | rpc versioning stuff, no-db-compute stuff, nova objects stuff ... all avoided nova-network | 21:18 |
| ttx | markmcclain: so we could have a freeze for any feature that would widen the gap | 21:18 |
| russellb | has gone for a few releases now | 21:18 |
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| russellb | and it's adding up | 21:18 |
| ttx | but not a strict code freeze | 21:18 |
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| SlickNik | +1 on ttx / russelb's idea of a 'soft' freeze. | 21:18 |
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| markmcclain | a freeze on features makes sense will allowing framework changes to made | 21:19 |
| ttx | markmcclain: if you get to feature parity, then we can easily argue that feature dev should happen in neutron | 21:19 |
| russellb | performance enhancements would be OK i think | 21:19 |
| russellb | someone told me they had some of those they hadn't submitted because they thought they would be rejected | 21:19 |
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| russellb | probably right | 21:19 |
| markmcclain | performance enhancements should be ok as long as the information is shared with Neutron team | 21:19 |
| ttx | it's just that nova-net users might not be ready to switch in icehouse, and need a working nova-net | 21:19 |
| sdague | so I think this just needs to be more incentive for the neutron team to close the basic gaps. | 21:19 |
| markmcclain | we might have already solved some of the same issues | 21:20 |
| * russellb nods | 21:20 | |
| russellb | of course, the other big problem with all of this is our messaging to the community at large | 21:20 |
| russellb | i think it's pretty ... cloudy right now | 21:20 |
| ttx | ok, we can revisit the state after your neutron sprint ? | 21:20 |
| ttx | but I think this half-freeze has potential | 21:20 |
| markmcclain | yeah I think we'll have a better idea where we stand after the 17th | 21:21 |
| russellb | sounds good | 21:21 |
| ttx | all that said, I'm very pleased with the focus on those issues in the neutron team | 21:21 |
| ttx | it's just that the gap was deep | 21:22 |
| ttx | and covering it can take longer than expected | 21:22 |
| ttx | which brings us to the next topic | 21:22 |
| ttx | #topic Gate stability (jgriffith) | 21:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Gate stability (jgriffith) (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:23 | |
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| jgriffith | So going into next week I'm a bit concerned | 21:23 |
| ttx | jgriffith: anything on your mind ? the 78-deep gate queue ? | 21:23 |
| jgriffith | ttx: that would be correct | 21:23 |
| jgriffith | I'm wondering if we need to rethink som things | 21:24 |
| jgriffith | we don't seem to be solving the problem | 21:24 |
| ttx | mordred, fungi, jeblair, clarkb: around? | 21:24 |
| jgriffith | Or am I the only one that thinks there's a problem? | 21:24 |
| sdague | jeblair and clarkb are in .au | 21:24 |
| ttx | sdague: mordred is too | 21:24 |
| russellb | well today there was a n ova problem that put us way behind | 21:24 |
| jgriffith | sounds like maybe I'm in the minority | 21:24 |
| ttx | or is he no | 21:24 |
| russellb | libvirt package was updated by accident | 21:24 |
| ttx | t | 21:24 |
| sdague | jgriffith: definitely a problem. Still very few people working on race bugs | 21:25 |
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| russellb | and that caused all nova patches to fail until it was resolved | 21:25 |
| sdague | and we had compounding issues | 21:25 |
| mordred | ttx: sup? | 21:25 |
| russellb | also for reference ... http://not.mn/gate_status.html | 21:25 |
| jgriffith | russellb: yeah... make sense but I guess my quesiton is we continue to uncover more of these "races" than we fix | 21:25 |
| russellb | but that was just today | 21:25 |
| ttx | mordred: weekly "do we need to rethink some things about the gate" topic | 21:25 |
| jgriffith | I'm beginning to wonder if our testing approach might need some tweaking? | 21:25 |
| mordred | ttx: yeah. | 21:25 |
| * jgriffith ducsk while everybody throws things at him | 21:25 | |
| russellb | jgriffith: have any tweaks in mind? | 21:26 |
| markmcclain | jgriffith: I also think that we keep finding races because we're adding better tests | 21:26 |
| russellb | i generally always end up back at "we just need to fix the problems" ... | 21:26 |
| jgriffith | russellb: So I just started thinking about this yesterday | 21:26 |
| sdague | jgriffith: at lot of these races have been here a long time | 21:26 |
| mordred | jgriffith: well - I think the problem is that what needs tweaking is what people hack on and how - but we've been using hte gate as a stick to try to force people to do so | 21:26 |
| sdague | just no one is working on them | 21:26 |
| jd__ | russellb: +1 :) | 21:26 |
| jgriffith | Ok | 21:26 |
| jgriffith | Maybe I'm completely off base here then | 21:26 |
| mordred | jgriffith: I agree we may need to think of new things - but not tech things in the gate- I think we may not be motivating people successfully | 21:26 |
| fungi | ttx: yeah, here | 21:27 |
| jgriffith | I don't agree that it's "nobody working on them though" | 21:27 |
| russellb | i think the motivation issue is key | 21:27 |
| * jog0 thinks of beer | 21:27 | |
| russellb | most nova gate bugs are collecting dust i think | 21:27 |
| ttx | one bug, one beer | 21:27 |
| jgriffith | I think there's a number of things going on that are not helping | 21:27 |
| jgriffith | workign on the issues may be part of it | 21:27 |
| ttx | sdague: any specific project to shame ? | 21:28 |
| jgriffith | but there are a TON of distractions | 21:28 |
| jgriffith | gitignore, vim heading, __init__ files, typos in comments | 21:28 |
| jgriffith | and my favorite the 10 part commits (one line each) | 21:28 |
| jgriffith | This adds stress to the review queues, the gates etc etc | 21:28 |
| dhellmann | jog0: maybe you're onto something -- a special party at the summit for contributors to the race issues? | 21:28 |
| sdague | ttx: not really, I'm still working towards better dashboard, but I get dragged down until actually trying to debug the key issues as well | 21:28 |
| jgriffith | and takes attention/focus away from those races in the gates | 21:28 |
| jgriffith | and trying to determine better ways of exposing those races early/first time around | 21:29 |
| jog0 | so http://status.openstack.org/elastic-recheck/ lists about 20 bugs or so that are actively happening in the gate | 21:29 |
| ttx | I think we are at a key moment -- adding better tests so catching more bugs, with the tooling and reporting slightly behind and people not all lined up to fix them | 21:29 |
| ttx | trick is overall, that means stuff is getting better | 21:30 |
| jgriffith | ttx: I fully agree with that | 21:30 |
| ttx | yes, it hurts our velocity | 21:30 |
| jgriffith | and I apologize that I'm not bringing this up with a proposal other than maybe rethink some things | 21:30 |
| jog0 | jgriffith: as for distractions, I think you just need to -2 more | 21:30 |
| ttx | but then, maybe we shoudln't be that much fast as long as we have those bugs around | 21:30 |
| jgriffith | jog0: sure | 21:30 |
| jgriffith | ok | 21:30 |
| sdague | I also think that given the review load, I think it's totally ok to start -2ing things at this point that aren't useful | 21:30 |
| sdague | it's i2 almost | 21:30 |
| russellb | hurting the velocity is probably good if our quality is hurting | 21:31 |
| sdague | and so time to start shedding review load | 21:31 |
| jd__ | "You frustration I hear", said ttx, "but on the right path we are." | 21:31 |
| ttx | the tension comes when the bugs are on one project and the delays hit other projects (see the discussion from last meeting) | 21:31 |
| russellb | velocity is only useful if the quality stays high | 21:31 |
| jgriffith | Well it seems I'm in the minority on some of this so we can move on | 21:31 |
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| jog0 | jgriffith: here was one i just did https://review.openstack.org/#/c/64393/ | 21:31 |
| dolphm | russellb: ++ | 21:31 |
| ttx | jd__: summarizing, you are good at. | 21:31 |
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| sdague | jgriffith: I think you are not in the minority in believing the current situation sucks | 21:31 |
| notmyname | jgriffith: I agree with your concern | 21:32 |
| jgriffith | sdague: to be clear, I'm not hear to say "this sucks" | 21:32 |
| russellb | ttx: totally get the cross project tensions ... not sure what to do about that | 21:32 |
| * notmyname just woke up at 5am in AUS | 21:32 | |
| jgriffith | I was hoping to get some thought on maybe doing something "differently" | 21:32 |
| jgriffith | whehter that be changes in how we gate... changes in philosophy on commits during certain periods of time etc | 21:32 |
| sdague | jgriffith: yeh, so to me differently is having any gate bug go a week without an update | 21:32 |
| jgriffith | and of course getting discovered issues worked on | 21:33 |
| jog0 | jgriffith: when there are critical gate bugs, I think its very reasonable to ignore all other reviews and work on the gate / other ciritcal bug | 21:33 |
| sdague | https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1257626 - last updated a month ago | 21:33 |
| ttx | jgriffith: there is some potential around slarter gate queues, as notmyname proposed last meeting | 21:33 |
| ttx | smarter* | 21:33 |
| sdague | it's like #4 on the list | 21:33 |
| jgriffith | sdague: agree, and yet we have bugs with 500+ rechecks from August | 21:33 |
| ttx | which needs some dev help to happen | 21:33 |
| sdague | jgriffith: right, that was my point on "*no one* is working on them" | 21:33 |
| sdague | which really should have been: not enough people are working on them | 21:33 |
| russellb | it seems like more people fixing these bugs is the biggest issue by far | 21:33 |
| jgriffith | sdague: fair enough | 21:33 |
| russellb | and people want to work on the fun stuff (features etc) | 21:34 |
| jog0 | russellb: agreed | 21:34 |
| jgriffith | alright... so that's all fair | 21:34 |
| ttx | things are tolerable until we get hit by some external issue and then the day is lost | 21:34 |
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| jgriffith | its going to hit the fan next week :) | 21:34 |
| ttx | so it's a bit of a fragile equilibrium | 21:34 |
| sdague | ttx: honestly, I'm not convinced we're at tolerable | 21:34 |
| sdague | even without external events | 21:34 |
| jgriffith | maybe when that happens people will be more interested | 21:34 |
| jgriffith | as in their stuff isn't landing | 21:35 |
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| sdague | but the pain threshold hasn't seemed to bother enough people to dive in | 21:35 |
| sdague | I htink the queue is 22hrs deep right now | 21:35 |
| jgriffith | sdague: ttx I'd say we are not | 21:35 |
| jgriffith | by a long shot | 21:35 |
| ttx | sdague: might be a european perspective. At least we have the option of sneaking our patches before the queue fails | 21:35 |
| jgriffith | ttx: LOL | 21:35 |
| jog0 | ttx: with a 22 hour queue you don't | 21:35 |
| sdague | ttx: yeh, not at the moment you don't | 21:35 |
| jgriffith | Ok, that's all I have I guess. I'll think on how to motivate more effort on bug fixes | 21:36 |
| ttx | sdague: about current situation, is it just backlog, or some persisting issue ? | 21:36 |
| jeblair | o/ | 21:36 |
| jgriffith | and I would ideally love to come up with a solution to expose things first time around | 21:36 |
| sdague | ttx: so there were a few compounding events, like the libvirt upgrade | 21:36 |
| sdague | jgriffith: so math is actually against us on that one | 21:36 |
| jog0 | https://bugs.launchpad.net/tempest/+bug/1253896 is my favorite bug | 21:36 |
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| david-lyle | bounty system? don't know who provides the prize though | 21:37 |
| sdague | ttx: and now zuul is so hammered, it's actually also timing out bugs | 21:37 |
| jgriffith | sdague: and you can't beat math as I've always said in the past | 21:37 |
| jog0 | filed and critical since second half of november | 21:37 |
| notmyname | jgriffith: I'd be happy to work with you figure something out | 21:37 |
| jgriffith | notmyname: thx | 21:37 |
| markwash | kidnapping first born, anyone? | 21:37 |
| markmcclain | jog0: https://bugs.launchpad.net/tempest/+bug/1253896 has actually been seeing active work | 21:37 |
| jgriffith | notmyname: There's a lot of really sharp people already thinking/working on it | 21:38 |
| ttx | I'd suggest cloning salvatore orlando a few thousand times | 21:38 |
| jgriffith | It'd be interesting if we all got together on something other than "get more people working on it" | 21:38 |
| markmcclain | ttx: +1 | 21:38 |
| markwash | that was a test. good news. you passed | 21:38 |
| sdague | jgriffith: maybe. I'm not sure we're going to clever our way out of fixing bugs though :) | 21:39 |
| jgriffith | sdague: I'm personally a firm believer in smarter rather than harder :) | 21:39 |
| jog0 | jgriffith: so right now all we have is the atomic gate is wedged stop +2ing tactic | 21:39 |
| jog0 | which is not a good one to use | 21:39 |
| jgriffith | my point is how to NOT wedge the gate in the first place | 21:40 |
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| ttx | I think the concept of slowing down feature development until bugs are fixed is good. The problem is that the pain shared by everyone, but not everyone can fix those bugs where they are | 21:40 |
| jgriffith | and I don't buy the "fix the bugs" | 21:40 |
| jgriffith | because there's something wrong IMO with either our code, or how we're testing | 21:40 |
| ttx | hence the frustration | 21:40 |
| jog0 | jgriffith: so your concerend so many bugs are getting into the gate? | 21:40 |
| sdague | jgriffith: put all of openstack into 1 single threaded process | 21:40 |
| * jgriffith proposes a quality / tech-debt release.. no new features :) | 21:41 | |
| sdague | the issue is really races between components | 21:41 |
| jgriffith | jog0: exactly | 21:41 |
| sdague | which means there are timing challenges, which is why they show up 1 or 2% of the time | 21:41 |
| jgriffith | sdague: if that's true we need to look at what we're doing as a whole | 21:41 |
| jgriffith | ie the design/arch of OpenStack | 21:41 |
| markwash | I guess I feel like if someone contributed a test that failed to glance, I wouldn't even look at it, because it would make my unit test suite unusable, even if the test reflected an actual bug. . so I'm not sure how nondeterministic failures are really different | 21:41 |
| jog0 | the odds are against us | 21:41 |
| jgriffith | but I don't necessarily know if I agree | 21:41 |
| jgriffith | there are things that are done in tests that aren't really valid sometimes IMO | 21:41 |
| ttx | ok, we need to move on | 21:42 |
| ttx | no magic bullet again | 21:42 |
| jgriffith | k.. thanks everyone | 21:43 |
| ttx | although I've hope that the current efforts already in progress will improve the situation | 21:43 |
| ttx | (new elastic-recheck reporting, smarter queues, moar neutron parallel testing) | 21:43 |
| ttx | next topic | 21:43 |
| ttx | #topic Brick library (jgriffith) | 21:43 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Brick library (jgriffith) (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:43 | |
| ttx | jgriffith: you again | 21:43 |
| jgriffith | oi | 21:44 |
| ttx | you're on fire | 21:44 |
| russellb | gogogo | 21:44 |
| jgriffith | Ok... so I've talked with some folks on this | 21:44 |
| jgriffith | Cinder came up with this idea of brick.. basicly mini-cinder service | 21:44 |
| jgriffith | do things like manage LVM/local storage on compute nodes | 21:44 |
| jgriffith | long term goal is things like scheduling local disk on instance nodes | 21:45 |
| jgriffith | also things like manilla, trove etc | 21:45 |
| jgriffith | IMO should leverage cinder for block storage rather than write their own | 21:45 |
| jgriffith | My proposal is to skip incubation in oslo and create a lib right out of the gate | 21:45 |
| jgriffith | it would fall under Cinder | 21:46 |
| jgriffith | then once that's set up of course go through and pull into the other projects | 21:46 |
| jgriffith | I've chatted with a couple of folks and wanted to get all the PTL's up to speed | 21:46 |
| russellb | i don't think we really incubate any other library right? incubating libs in oslo was just while the API was unstable | 21:46 |
| ttx | jgriffith: is it a library ? | 21:46 |
| jd__ | sounds sane | 21:46 |
| jgriffith | make sure there are no objections | 21:46 |
| russellb | seems fine to me | 21:47 |
| jgriffith | ttx: it's not yet, I need to turn it in to one :) | 21:47 |
| jd__ | not sure about the oslo part, but dhellmann might have an opinion | 21:47 |
| jgriffith | I'll need help from ttx and the infra gurus on that front :) | 21:47 |
| ttx | no need for incubation in the oslo sense | 21:47 |
| jgriffith | jd__: I spoke with dhellmann on this, skip oslo | 21:47 |
| russellb | and no need for incubation in the normal sense either right? | 21:47 |
| jgriffith | ^^ skip oslo was what we came up with | 21:47 |
| jgriffith | russellb: that's what I'm hoping | 21:47 |
| dhellmann | yeah, we discussed this and I agree it doesn't make sense for this to go through the oslo-incubator | 21:47 |
| russellb | works for me | 21:47 |
| jd__ | jgriffith: ok, so that would be just a standard Python library? | 21:47 |
| jgriffith | russellb: I'm hoping it's use in cinder has been the "incubatio" | 21:47 |
| ttx | jgriffith: one question left was the use of the openstack namespace for the lib name, right | 21:48 |
| sdague | jgriffith: this become oslo.foo or cinder.foo? | 21:48 |
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| jgriffith | ttx: yes | 21:48 |
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| jgriffith | sdague: that's the million dollar question :) | 21:48 |
| jd__ | please make a standard Python lib, don't zope it | 21:48 |
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| jgriffith | jd__: noted :) | 21:48 |
| ttx | jd__: nice :) | 21:48 |
| dhellmann | sdague: it can only be cinder.brick if cinder is converted to a namespace package (which isn't a bad idea, but will involve some code churn) | 21:48 |
| * jgriffith hates code churn | 21:48 | |
| russellb | just brick seems fine | 21:48 |
| jgriffith | but if it's worth the end result I'm down for it | 21:48 |
| russellb | if not already taken | 21:49 |
| jgriffith | I'll deal with a name if needed | 21:49 |
| sdague | ok, so the only thing to note is we'll need to gate it like the oslo.config and oslo.messaging libs | 21:49 |
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| jgriffith | sdague: that's the part I'm going to need some help on, at least some guidance | 21:49 |
| sdague | as that's our current policy for things like that (which might get revisted) | 21:49 |
| dhellmann | sure, normally that's what I'd say, but this is really only intended to be used by openstack apps so that's why we were discussing a global namespace | 21:49 |
| jgriffith | sdague: roger that | 21:49 |
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| sdague | jgriffith: yeh the oslo graduation section lays most of it out | 21:49 |
| ttx | is this really only intended to be used by openstack apps ? | 21:50 |
| sdague | and ttx is going through it with oslo.rootwrap right now | 21:50 |
| ttx | lots of fun | 21:50 |
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| ttx | vaguely documented on the oslo page now | 21:50 |
| jgriffith | ttx: well I'm not desiging it with anybody else in mind but I don't have a problem if others pick it up use it | 21:50 |
| jgriffith | but I don't want to maintain it in that perspective | 21:50 |
| jgriffith | Life is much simpler when it's "openstack only" IMO | 21:51 |
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| jgriffith | anyway, I just wanted to run this by the other projects | 21:51 |
| jgriffith | mostly russellb (so thanks russellb ) | 21:51 |
| ttx | jgriffith: do you need anything more on that subject, or can we move on ? | 21:51 |
| jgriffith | make sure there's now "WTH is this" | 21:51 |
| jgriffith | ttx: move on... thanks everyone | 21:52 |
| russellb | jgriffith: sure! | 21:52 |
| ttx | #topic Red Flag District / Blocked blueprints | 21:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Red Flag District / Blocked blueprints (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:52 | |
| ttx | No blocked blueprint afaict | 21:52 |
| ttx | Any blocked work that this meeting could help unblock ? | 21:52 |
| ttx | 78-deep gate doesn't count. | 21:52 |
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| jog0 | 76* | 21:53 |
| ttx | yay | 21:53 |
| sdague | so coming back to the gate issue, one thing we haven't tried is global gate bug fix days. Especially if you got a lot of PTLs and top tech folks to sign up for devoting a day it might shake some of these loose. | 21:54 |
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| sdague | elaphant gun approach | 21:54 |
| russellb | sdague: i'd love to do that | 21:54 |
| ttx | mondays are good moments for that. Clean gate | 21:54 |
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| stevebaker | sounds like a good idea | 21:55 |
| russellb | it's not a long term sustainable approach ... but it's good for playing catchup | 21:55 |
| russellb | and i think we need to play catchup right now | 21:55 |
| ttx | +1 | 21:55 |
| jog0 | ++ | 21:55 |
| SlickNik | +1 | 21:55 |
| russellb | i'd be happy to devote at least a full day, if not a couple | 21:55 |
| ttx | sdague: go for it | 21:55 |
| sdague | damn, I just signed myself up for organizing that didn't I.... | 21:55 |
| ttx | just track the results to see if it made a difference :) | 21:55 |
| russellb | sdague: sure did | 21:56 |
| russellb | ttx: good call | 21:56 |
| ttx | #topic Incubated projects | 21:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Incubated projects (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:56 | |
| sdague | ok, well with montreal I'll plan to do one post i2 | 21:56 |
| * NobodyCam is here for ironic | 21:56 | |
| ttx | 4 minutes for questions if any | 21:56 |
| * SergeyLukjanov here too | 21:56 | |
| ttx | NobodyCam: are we stil on track for an icehouse-2 functional milestone of ironic ? | 21:56 |
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| NobodyCam | Ironic update. we are looking mostly good. we may have a issue with neutron intragration, but have already started on a fall back plan for that case | 21:57 |
| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: https://launchpad.net/savanna/+milestone/icehouse-2 looking good | 21:57 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, yup, heat integration is already landed | 21:58 |
| ttx | fwiw we should have some incubation status intermediary meeting soon at the TC level | 21:58 |
| ttx | will keep you posted | 21:58 |
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| NobodyCam | great | 21:59 |
| ttx | #action ttx to organize intermediary incubation status TC meeting soon | 21:59 |
| ttx | any question ? | 21:59 |
| ttx | no time left for open discussion | 21:59 |
| NobodyCam | Thank you all | 22:00 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 22:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 22:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jan 7 22:00:28 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 22:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-01-07-21.02.html | 22:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-01-07-21.02.txt | 22:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-01-07-21.02.log.html | 22:00 |
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| SlickNik | Thanks guys! | 22:01 |
| ttx | stevebaker: waiting for you in #openstack-relmgr-office | 22:01 |
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| mrunge | #startmeeting Horizon | 22:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jan 7 22:01:39 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mrunge. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 22:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 22:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Horizon)" | 22:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'horizon' | 22:01 |
| mrunge | hello and welcome | 22:01 |
| jtomasek | hey | 22:01 |
| lsmola | hello | 22:02 |
| akrivoka | hey | 22:02 |
| jcoufal-m | o/ | 22:02 |
| jpich | Hey | 22:02 |
| bdehamer | hello | 22:02 |
| jomara | ahoy | 22:02 |
| mrunge | sadly, David can't attend right now, but he will join us later | 22:02 |
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| mrunge | let's have a brief look at the agenda | 22:03 |
| mrunge | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Horizon | 22:03 |
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| mrunge | #topic project update | 22:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "project update (Meeting topic: Horizon)" | 22:03 | |
| mrunge | icehouse-2 milestone is due on jan 23rd (?) | 22:03 |
| mrunge | I may be wrong there | 22:03 |
| mrunge | still, everything not merged next tuesday will be moved to icehouse-3 | 22:04 |
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| jpich | Milestone-proposed branch cut-off is usually 2 days before the date | 22:04 |
| mrunge | david mentioned something like january 14th | 22:04 |
| mrunge | I'll take this as an opportunity, to look at bugs and blueprints targeted for i-2 | 22:05 |
| mrunge | https://launchpad.net/horizon/+milestone/icehouse-2 | 22:05 |
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| mrunge | currently, we have 13 bugs without code, one of them confirmed | 22:06 |
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| mrunge | and 19 bugs needing code reviews | 22:06 |
| mrunge | shall we inspect them in more detail? | 22:07 |
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| lifeless | ttx: hallo from perth | 22:07 |
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| lsmola | mrunge, could you plese give this one high priority https://bugs.launchpad.net/horizon/+bug/1266505 | 22:09 |
| mrunge | esp. I'd love to see both bugs with prio high merged for i-2 if possible | 22:09 |
| lsmola | mrunge, prevents line chart from working | 22:10 |
| lsmola | mrunge, and it is tribial fix | 22:10 |
| mrunge | lsmola, done | 22:10 |
| lsmola | mrunge, mvidori did too much refactoring :-) | 22:10 |
| lsmola | thanks | 22:10 |
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| mrunge | and also targeted to i-2 | 22:10 |
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| lsmola | cool, thank you | 22:10 |
| MaxV | it is currently on merge | 22:10 |
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| mrunge | yes, I got a report, that the "select all" jscript doesn't work any more | 22:11 |
| lsmola | MaxV, great, didnt noticed | 22:11 |
| mrunge | but I didn't file a bug until now | 22:11 |
| MaxV | mrunge: fill the bug I can make a quick patch | 22:12 |
| mrunge | maxv will do tomorrow, as it's quite late here | 22:12 |
| akrivoka | mrunge: that should be already fixed, I believe | 22:12 |
| jpich | Didn't this get fixed recently? | 22:12 |
| akrivoka | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/61467/ | 22:12 |
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| mrunge | jpich, yes, looks like it | 22:13 |
| jpich | Thanks, akrivoka! I think a duplicate was filed since then | 22:13 |
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| mrunge | when did we release i-1? | 22:13 |
| mrunge | the report is against i-1 | 22:13 |
| mrunge | so we might check it again | 22:13 |
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| mrunge | other important bugs to be targeted for i-2? | 22:14 |
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| jpich | i-1 was Dec 5th | 22:14 |
| mrunge | yes,and it was merged on 27th | 22:14 |
| mrunge | so, not included | 22:14 |
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| akrivoka | this is probably the new duplicate report: https://bugs.launchpad.net/horizon/+bug/1266825 | 22:15 |
| mrunge | yupp, | 22:15 |
| jpich | akrivoka: Yep, just updated it | 22:15 |
| mrunge | looks like it | 22:15 |
| mrunge | cool | 22:15 |
| akrivoka | cool, thanks jpich ! | 22:16 |
| jpich | Np :) | 22:16 |
| mrunge | does anyone know more about https://bugs.launchpad.net/horizon/+bug/1265032 ? | 22:17 |
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| mrunge | it looks quite serious | 22:17 |
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| mrunge | at least, it will be difficult to debug in production, when that happens | 22:18 |
| lsmola | mrunge, hmm from what I understood it just show wrong data for couple of minutes | 22:18 |
| jpich | IMO it's always been the case so far, that it can take a bit of time for the floating IP to be displayed on the Instances page | 22:18 |
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| mrunge | as far as we don't rely on shown data | 22:20 |
| mrunge | anything else? | 22:20 |
| mrunge | #topic meeting time | 22:20 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "meeting time (Meeting topic: Horizon)" | 22:20 | |
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| mrunge | thanks to lblanchard, we had the doodle | 22:22 |
| mrunge | http://www.doodle.com/q8q6iu8gcqp6c4xa | 22:22 |
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| mrunge | and it looks like best times are 2 pm or 4 pm UTC | 22:22 |
| mrunge | both are not ideal | 22:22 |
| mrunge | at 2 pm, we'll exclude david-lyle , at 4pm we'll exclude amotoki | 22:23 |
| mrunge | if anyone of you didn't answer the poll yet, please do so!! | 22:23 |
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| mrunge | opinions here? | 22:25 |
| MaxV | done | 22:25 |
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| lsmola | mrunge, I guess we should ask amotoki and david-lyle which is less worse for them :-) | 22:26 |
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| mrunge | it's way early or very late for them... | 22:26 |
| TheSheep | we could also try and ask people to relax their rules a little and add times that are not ideal for them, but still possible | 22:26 |
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| TheSheep | maybe another time will appear | 22:27 |
| jcoufal-m | Done | 22:27 |
| TheSheep | which is equally uncomfortable for everyone | 22:27 |
| matty_dubs | The current time is OK for me (though I'm not actively doing Horizon right now), but I know it's already pretty inconvenient for, say, all of Europe. | 22:28 |
| lsmola | TheSheep, :-) | 22:28 |
| jpich | There's also the "alternate every week" solution that projects like Ceilometer are using to accommodate different timezones | 22:28 |
| lsmola | jpich, yes | 22:28 |
| mrunge | matty_dubs, well, this time gets worse for Europeans during summer time... | 22:29 |
| akrivoka | I think for most of us located in the central europe, this will be a welcome change :) | 22:29 |
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| matty_dubs | jpich: That's not a bad idea. I think there comes a point where it's just impossible to get everyone in a meeting unless people are willing to call in at 3am or something. | 22:30 |
| david-lyle_ | o/ | 22:30 |
| lsmola | hello | 22:30 |
| mrunge | hey david-lyle_ welcome back | 22:30 |
| jcoufal-m | \o | 22:30 |
| david-lyle_ | Sorry I'm late | 22:30 |
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| mrunge | david, we just have talked about meeting time | 22:31 |
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| david-lyle_ | I don't have any history so carry on | 22:31 |
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| mrunge | and it looks like 2 or 4 pm (UTC) is best | 22:31 |
| mrunge | both are not idea | 22:31 |
| mrunge | ideal | 22:32 |
| mrunge | either we cut of amotoki or you | 22:32 |
| david-lyle_ | Poll didn't reveal a consensus seemed like | 22:32 |
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| lblanchard | o/ sorry I'm a bit late :) | 22:33 |
| mrunge | david-lyle_, for 15 out of 20 persons those times would work | 22:33 |
| lsmola | lblanchard, hello | 22:33 |
| mrunge | which is something I didn't expect | 22:34 |
| david-lyle_ | Was I one? Can't remember :) | 22:34 |
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| mrunge | david-lyle_, http://www.doodle.com/q8q6iu8gcqp6c4xa is the poll | 22:34 |
| mrunge | but it may be hard to read on a small display | 22:35 |
| mrunge | I'd leave it to our PTL to decide that later ;-) | 22:35 |
| david-lyle_ | Ah yes. I was thinking 2:00 utc | 22:35 |
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| david-lyle_ | All right there were some late votes I think. I'll pick when I have a big screen | 22:36 |
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| mrunge | yes, that's quite early for you, I think. not sure if that could/would work for Australians | 22:36 |
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| mrunge | #topic Discuss integration of Tuskar UI | 22:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Discuss integration of Tuskar UI (Meeting topic: Horizon)" | 22:36 | |
| mrunge | who brought the topic? who can enlighten us here? | 22:37 |
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| david-lyle_ | I have not had a chance to work on coordinating this yet with the holidays | 22:37 |
| lsmola | mrunge, me? | 22:37 |
| lsmola | :-) | 22:37 |
| david-lyle_ | Need to get with infra and lifeless | 22:38 |
| mrunge | lsmola, anything to add here? | 22:38 |
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| mrunge | david-lyle_, should we move it to the next meeting? | 22:38 |
| lsmola | mrunge, well there was a consensus of what we want, so nothing to add from my side | 22:38 |
| lsmola | david-lyle_, great, thank you | 22:39 |
| david-lyle_ | Yes, hopefully by that time we'll have it done | 22:39 |
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| lsmola | yaaaay | 22:39 |
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| mrunge | great | 22:40 |
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| mrunge | #topic open floor | 22:40 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open floor (Meeting topic: Horizon)" | 22:40 | |
| jcoufal-m | Awesome :) | 22:40 |
| lblanchard | lsmola: With help from julim on requirements I was able to put together these: http://people.redhat.com/~lsurette/OpenStack/Horizon%20Admin%20Overview%20Pages_2.0.pdf | 22:40 |
| mrunge | anything else? | 22:40 |
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| lblanchard | feedback from any and all is welcome…these are directed towards updating the admin overview page | 22:41 |
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| lsmola | lblanchard, excellent | 22:41 |
| lblanchard | lsmola: currently working on the resource usage page | 22:41 |
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| lblanchard | lsmola: hope to have a design by next meeting to run by you :) | 22:41 |
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| david-lyle_ | lblanchard: looks good | 22:42 |
| mrunge | it's quite full, right? | 22:42 |
| lsmola | lblanchard, very cool, thank you | 22:42 |
| lblanchard | david-lyle: thanks | 22:42 |
| lblanchard | mrunge: it is | 22:42 |
| mrunge | or it looks packed with stuff | 22:42 |
| david-lyle_ | Implementation detail, asynchronous data loading | 22:42 |
| lsmola | lblanchard, I will check the overview pages tomorrow, to see what will be possible with current ceilometer | 22:43 |
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| mrunge | any chance to make it less dense? | 22:43 |
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| lblanchard | mrunge: I've talked to a number of solution architects about this in the past…they are not new users to these applications and would like to have as much information as needed on one screen…they will drill in for more details. We could think about pulling some details out though. | 22:43 |
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| lblanchard | mrunge: I hope to do some usability testing too! | 22:43 |
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| david-lyle_ | It really is a dashboard view | 22:44 |
| mrunge | lblanchard, are people used to look at those pages, e.g because others do it like this? | 22:44 |
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| david-lyle_ | Is this for all users or admins? | 22:44 |
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| lblanchard | david-lyle: this is meant for admins | 22:44 |
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| david-lyle_ | Limited subset for domain admins and members? | 22:44 |
| lblanchard | mrunge: I think it depends on the user... | 22:44 |
| lblanchard | mrunge: consumers who are looking at a new website might go running and hiding :) | 22:45 |
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| lblanchard | mrunge: but administrators want info…I will definitely ask around though about the density…I do agree it is pushing it! | 22:45 |
| david-lyle_ | Operators tend to want massive amounts of status especially if there is the posibility of alarms | 22:45 |
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| mrunge | lblanchard, I like it, because it sums up a massive amount of data | 22:46 |
| lblanchard | david-lyle: also, the idea would be to have a global area for alerts at the top | 22:46 |
| lblanchard | we need to do some thinking around how to make this work best | 22:46 |
| lsmola | mrunge, btw. the future plan is to make these pages configurable | 22:46 |
| mrunge | and I assume, you get used to it. | 22:46 |
| mrunge | lsmola, no. honestly? | 22:46 |
| mrunge | then we need a database | 22:46 |
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| mrunge | to store config | 22:46 |
| lsmola | mrunge, well why not, there will be a lot of ceilometer metrics | 22:47 |
| lblanchard | lsmola, mrunge: configurable would be nice, but…if we know the users enough we won't need this :) | 22:47 |
| mrunge | currently, horizon doesn't need that | 22:47 |
| david-lyle_ | We are approaching that eventuality I worry | 22:47 |
| lsmola | mrunge, also specific to some users (they can add their own) | 22:47 |
| lblanchard | it's kind of an excuse for not knowing EXACTLY what our users want…we should be able to figure it out! | 22:47 |
| mrunge | sp we don't have to hazzle with database migrations and such stuff | 22:47 |
| lblanchard | I think this would be an amazing start at least | 22:47 |
| lblanchard | then we could run it by a bunch of people and continuously improve it | 22:48 |
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| mrunge | yes, a good step ahead | 22:48 |
| david-lyle_ | I imagine it will come in incrementally as far as patches anyway | 22:48 |
| lblanchard | julim might have more feedback too, I will add this as a link to the BP and be sure to keep it updated | 22:48 |
| lblanchard | david-lyle: for sure | 22:48 |
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| lsmola | yep, but it is a more distant future anyway | 22:49 |
| lsmola | now we need the basics :-) | 22:49 |
| david-lyle_ | Exactly | 22:49 |
| lblanchard | agreed | 22:50 |
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| mrunge | cool. | 22:50 |
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| mrunge | anything else? | 22:50 |
| david-lyle_ | I will try to release openstack -auth tomorrow | 22:51 |
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| mrunge | great david-lyle_ thank you. I'll try to add django-1.6 tests later then | 22:52 |
| david-lyle_ | If we can get things through the gate, we'll get support added | 22:53 |
| mrunge | that would be good, I think | 22:53 |
| david-lyle_ | Matthias hopefully mentioned this already but there are only two weeks left in i-2 | 22:54 |
| david-lyle_ | Anyone have any concerns other than the gate and reviews? | 22:54 |
| lsmola | so till 22th? | 22:54 |
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| david-lyle_ | Sounds right | 22:54 |
| lsmola | ok | 22:55 |
| jpich | Do we want i-2 stuff to be merged by Tuesday, or have code up for review by Tuesday? | 22:55 |
| mrunge | david-lyle_, actually, I told, we need i-2 stuff merged next Tuesday | 22:55 |
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| david-lyle_ | That would be saner as I fear we'll be fighting the gate for a while | 22:55 |
| mrunge | but that might be simply wrong | 22:56 |
| lsmola | ugh, we will need a ram | 22:56 |
| mrunge | yes, the gate became a real pain during the last few days | 22:56 |
| jomara | lsmola: you are a barbarian | 22:56 |
| david-lyle_ | Hopefully the full stop of today will not be a problem again | 22:56 |
| lsmola | jomara, no, barbarian coulnt build a proper ram :-) | 22:57 |
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| mrunge | ok, thanks for coming | 22:59 |
| david-lyle_ | Thanks mrunge for hosting | 22:59 |
| mrunge | #endmeeting | 22:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 22:59 | |
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| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jan 7 22:59:13 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 22:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2014/horizon.2014-01-07-22.01.html | 22:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2014/horizon.2014-01-07-22.01.txt | 22:59 |
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| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2014/horizon.2014-01-07-22.01.log.html | 22:59 |
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| lsmola | thanks everybody, have a great night | 22:59 |
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| mrunge | same to you | 22:59 |
| mrunge | david-lyle_, you're welcome! | 22:59 |
| lblanchard | thanks all, bye! | 22:59 |
| akrivoka | good night everyone | 22:59 |
| jpich | Thanks everyone, have a good day/eve | 22:59 |
| jomara | night | 22:59 |
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| jcoufal-m | G'night | 23:00 |
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| jtomasek | good night all | 23:00 |
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