| *** jjardon has quit IRC | 01:54 | |
| *** jjardon has joined #storyboard | 01:55 | |
| *** davidlenwell has quit IRC | 02:10 | |
| *** davidlenwell has joined #storyboard | 02:13 | |
| *** h0h0h0 has joined #storyboard | 02:43 | |
| *** h0h0h0 has left #storyboard | 02:44 | |
| *** davidlenwell has quit IRC | 04:06 | |
| *** davidlenwell has joined #storyboard | 04:09 | |
| *** openstackgerrit has quit IRC | 09:32 | |
| *** openstackgerrit has joined #storyboard | 09:32 | |
| *** jjardon has quit IRC | 10:01 | |
| *** jjardon has joined #storyboard | 10:03 | |
| *** jjardon has quit IRC | 10:20 | |
| *** jjardon has joined #storyboard | 10:21 | |
| Zara | erm, late-morning, storyboard! | 12:35 |
|---|---|---|
| Zara | been updating spec thing; we now have a list of all the things that can update, and can instantly see which of those things a user can choose to see timeline events for. Should make the gaps more obvious. | 12:37 |
| Zara | it's also suggesting to me that we need to separate timeline events from recent events (users currently pick preferences for timeline events, which display on a story's detail page,and are thus tied in with that story) | 12:38 |
| Zara | so for something like a board, which isn't part of a story, but rather a way of grouping some stories together, it seems a bit weird to put updates to that in timeline events | 12:39 |
| Zara | I mean, you could update timeline events for every story that's in that worklist, whenever that worklist changes, but that seems ridiculous (what if just the worklist title changes?) | 12:39 |
| Zara | I'm not sure of the utility of timeline events in general (beyond comments), but that might just be me not knowing things. | 12:40 |
| persia | So, worklists have lots of applications. | 12:45 |
| persia | The one that excites me is the ability for different people who determine developer priorities (independent developers, development managers, etc.) to order a set of tasks in a worklist. | 12:46 |
| persia | This provides a proxy for the "priority" field, without the debates associated with that | 12:46 |
| * persia has been in enough projects where "critical" issues were ignored because they were not important to anyone who set developer priorities | 12:46 | |
| persia | In such a model, I very much want to know when a given task gets added to or removed from a worklist. | 12:47 |
| *** openstackgerrit has quit IRC | 12:47 | |
| persia | Similarly, I want to know if the worklist was renamed (because this probably indicates some reorganisation of priority for the worklist owner) | 12:47 |
| *** openstackgerrit has joined #storyboard | 12:48 | |
| persia | And I want to know if the task was moved significantly within the worklist (but this is perhaps harder to accomplish) | 12:48 |
| Zara | right, what I'm saying is that the tools available at the moment don't work well for that, because you'd have to inform the user via all the stories in that worklist-- and presumably lots of uninterested people will also view those stories. so the timeline events will quickly fill with noise | 12:48 |
| persia | So, as a user, I don't really care about the content of another user's worklist: I care whether a given task is on that worklist. | 12:49 |
| persia | And generally I only care about tasks: for me, the ability to put a story in a worklist is just a workaround in cases where a story contains no tasks. | 12:49 |
| persia | (because I cannot "do" a story: I can only "do" a task) | 12:49 |
| Zara | I don't think it's possible for a story to contain no tasks at the moment anyway :) | 12:50 |
| persia | In which case, I don't see any value to having a story in a worklist, either for the priority thing I described, or the kanban feature others seem to want. | 12:50 |
| Zara | I'm guessing it's a defensive thing in case stories later change to contain no tasks. for my own part, I don't see the value in making that change, since it's easy to include a placeholder task with the same title as the story, and storyboard has already been designed around tasks. | 12:51 |
| Zara | *to accommodate containing no tasks | 12:52 |
| Zara | weird phrasing but hopefully makes sense. | 12:52 |
| persia | My fear is that the placeholder arrangement will promote people adding stories to worklists, which strikes me as wrong. | 12:52 |
| persia | But that fear mostly stems from how you described things immediately above: it is a new fear :) | 12:53 |
| Zara | if that's wrong, then I think the correct answer would be to prevent people from adding stories to worklists, and also make it clear that we won't change stories to include no tasks. | 12:54 |
| persia | As long as users can select what appears in a timeline, I think it is interesting to inform users when any tasks appear or disappear from worklists in the timeline. | 12:54 |
| Zara | are we thinking of the same thing when we talk about the timeline? | 12:54 |
| persia | My understanding of the rationale was that there was an assumption that stories were initially created without tasks, and would need to be triaged by someone familiar with the codebase to determine appropriate tasks. | 12:55 |
| persia | WHen I say "timeline", I'm thinking of the activity summary that appears at the bottom of the story page. | 12:55 |
| Zara | ah, we are. okay. I was going to say, I think that the recent events on the dashboard would be a useful place to put info on changes for worklists and boards. I'm less convinced about putting that information in timeline events, on a story's detail page, but I might be wrong about that. I can see a version where we have 'task added to worklist' in timeline events, but things like 'worklist title changed' in recent events only. | 12:58 |
| Zara | it's easier to implement if they're both tied together, so hey. I'm just not sure it makes much sense as we get more preference options that are relevant to smaller groups of users. | 12:59 |
| persia | To me, putting it in the dashboard is only interesting for a subset of worklists, being my own, those of any manager I may have, those providing guidance to any organisation I may participate in, and those associated with the project release team. | 12:59 |
| persia | Whereas for any given story, I want to know the full set of worklists to which the tasks belong, so I have a better idea who cares about it, or wants to fix it. | 12:59 |
| persia | Ideally, I also have some indication of the position on that worklist, as 3/4 is maybe not as important as 7/314. | 13:00 |
| Zara | yeah, I'm thinking of a situation where someone wants to know details like 'worklist title changed' for the subset they're interested in, but isn't interested in that for most worklists (though they may be subscribed to stories that include tasks in those worklists). They might also want to see the information about which tasks belong to which worklists, for the reasons you give. atm, it seems like they'd have to choose between noise o | 13:04 |
| Zara | they could keep toggling the settings between viewing recent events, and viewing timeline pages, but that seems annoying. | 13:05 |
| persia | toggling settings doesn't help, because the events occur in an arbitrary timestream, so that there is a good chance that the user believes themselves to always have the wrong setting. | 13:06 |
| persia | Right, so instead of thinking about the mechanics of the code, let's think about what users actually want to know. | 13:06 |
| persia | I think the list is as follows: | 13:06 |
| persia | (priorities): | 13:07 |
| persia | 1) A task in a subscribed story was given a higher/lower priority by someone | 13:07 |
| persia | 2) A task in a subscribed story was prioritised / deprioritised by someone (added/removed from lists) | 13:07 |
| persia | (kanban) | 13:07 |
| persia | 3) A task in a subscribed story progressed from one lane to another (lane names are important: it might "progress" to "ignore") | 13:08 |
| persia | 4) A task in a subscribed story was added to an initial lane in some kanban | 13:08 |
| persia | 5) A lane was renamed that contained tasks in one or more subscribed stories | 13:09 |
| persia | (priorities) | 13:09 |
| persia | 6) A worklist was renamed (perhaps to "old" or something) | 13:09 |
| persia | I think I want all that information. | 13:10 |
| persia | I think the "noise" factor is that I may not want to be told 37 times of that thing. | 13:10 |
| Zara | this is where the thing is at so far, btw: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/StoryBoard/Notifications | 13:11 |
| persia | And I think that some users may want to only care about certain worklists (e.g. "this is my corporate kanban, the others don't matter", or "This is my boss' list of things to do: I should just do something from the list, and move on") | 13:11 |
| Zara | yes, agreed. | 13:12 |
| Zara | that's the case I'm thinking of where someone isn't remotely interested in lookign at a story, except for maybe the comments to see if something will get in their way, or for a link to existing patches | 13:12 |
| Zara | *story's timeline events | 13:12 |
| persia | Is there a mechanism to "show all" if one has set one's preferences to show a subset? | 13:13 |
| persia | Because I think I usually want to see a subset, but sometimes want to see all. | 13:13 |
| persia | And, thinking about it, I proabbly want to see the worklists a task participates in within the task detail, rather than only in the timeline. | 13:13 |
| Zara | you can change them with checkboxes on the timeline page, but it's a case of selecting/deselecting each box | 13:14 |
| Zara | (there's also going to be an issue with 'as we make preferences more finegrained, users will have a million boxes', so we'll need a nice way to present it that isn't overwhelming or largely irrelevant) | 13:15 |
| persia | Hrm? I don't see any checkboxes in the timeline for a random story I selected. | 13:16 |
| Zara | there's a cog next to 'events timeline' that should let you select them | 13:16 |
| persia | That doesn't do what I want: that sets my preferences, which applies to all stories. | 13:17 |
| persia | But, yes, I *do* want to see all the changes in worklist status in this list, sometimes. | 13:18 |
| Zara | you want preferences that are different for different stories? or just a non-permanent way to see-all, that doesn't affect preferences? | 13:18 |
| persia | What I think I don't want is to get a notification of story update for every story containing any tasks that happened to be on a worklist when it was renamed. | 13:18 |
| persia | I want a non-permanent way to see all that doesn't affect preferences. | 13:18 |
| persia | I'll write a story about that. | 13:19 |
| Zara | ah, then I'd guess you'd have to emulate that by checking all boxes, but remembering ones you'd previously checked, then checking just those afterwards. | 13:19 |
| Zara | which is a lot of effort | 13:19 |
| persia | Right :) | 13:19 |
| persia | Worklist events are hard, because if one just collapses them all and provides a single notice that some given worklist was renamed, this doesn't make sense to people who don't follow that worklist. | 13:20 |
| Zara | right, that's why I'd like notices in that scenario to only be given to people who follow that worklist | 13:20 |
| persia | Which means that unless I follow every worklist, I can't know when someone decides to deprioritise the one story I care about. | 13:23 |
| persia | By the way, I don't seem to be able to create a story :( | 13:24 |
| Zara | ack, what's going wrong? | 13:24 |
| Zara | :( | 13:24 |
| persia | "Save Changes" is dull and inactive. "Preview Description" works. | 13:24 |
| persia | Ah, it was because I manually typed all of "openstack-infra/storyboard-webclient", which breaks the autoselector. | 13:25 |
| Zara | ah, it's because you currently have to select a project for the first task | 13:25 |
| Zara | oh, hah, that's a different bug then \o/ | 13:25 |
| persia | One has to type a subset of the name of the project in order for it to show up properly. | 13:25 |
| Zara | yeah, there should be a story for that but there actually might not be | 13:25 |
| Zara | it's definitely a bug we're all aware of, but I'm not sure that it's ever been written down... | 13:26 |
| Zara | I think I've mentally filed it under 'search is weird' | 13:27 |
| persia | heh | 13:27 |
| Zara | :) | 13:27 |
| persia | In any case, I don't have a good answer for worklist notifications: I hope I've helped expand your understanding of the problems. If I come up with one, I'll mention it here, or edit the wiki, or write a story, depending on what seems appropriate. | 13:28 |
| Zara | cool, that'd be great. it's useful for me to see how other people use notifications, because I only know how I use them; after that it's speculation... | 13:29 |
| *** openstackstatus has quit IRC | 13:57 | |
| *** yarkot has joined #storyboard | 15:45 | |
| *** b3rnard0 is now known as b3rnard0_away | 16:02 | |
| *** b3rnard0_away is now known as b3rnard0 | 16:32 | |
| *** yarkot has quit IRC | 16:52 | |
| *** openstackstatus has joined #storyboard | 17:38 | |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +v openstackstatus | 17:38 | |
| *** yarkot has joined #storyboard | 19:19 | |
| *** mrmartin has joined #storyboard | 19:21 | |
| *** mrmartin has quit IRC | 19:31 | |
| *** mrmartin has joined #storyboard | 19:54 | |
| *** yarkot has quit IRC | 20:32 | |
| *** mrmartin has quit IRC | 20:32 | |
| *** yarkot has joined #storyboard | 20:46 | |
| *** yarkot has quit IRC | 22:12 | |
| *** yarkot has joined #storyboard | 22:13 | |
| *** yarkot has quit IRC | 22:17 | |
| *** openstackstatus has quit IRC | 23:01 | |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.14.0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!