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| asettle | o/ | 08:59 |
|---|---|---|
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| ttx | o/ | 09:00 |
| ttx | We are still missing two candidates... On one hand I want to find candidates, but on the other I feel like reducing to 11 due to lack of candidates would not be that bad | 09:02 |
| ttx | If anyone has questions about what it means to be on the TC, please ask! | 09:03 |
| evrardjp | o/ | 09:04 |
| ricolin | o/ | 09:04 |
| ttx | On the project team side arguably Cyborg Designate Horizon Infrastructure Manila Nova Octavia Oslo Placement are the most concerning | 09:05 |
| ttx | but then I don;t feel like we need to step in until they are actually leaderless | 09:05 |
| ttx | just shows that we should still work on making the PTL job less daunting | 09:06 |
| ttx | IMHO the job is not really daunting in itself... it's more the accountability. Other team members don't feel obliged to step up since it's the PTL's responsibility to cover if nobody does | 09:07 |
| ttx | so at the end of the line the PTL ends up with lots of work, rather than just the responsibility to get things done | 09:08 |
| ttx | Some train "activity" stats: | 09:14 |
| ttx | Over "core" projects number of merged commits/day dropped only 3.8% from stein to train so far. We could even catch up if the feature freeze proves superbusy | 09:15 |
| ttx | If you consider all the IaaS projects (the central box in the openstack map) then the drop is more around 14% | 09:15 |
| ttx | Over all "official" teams, activity dropped around 9.6% between stein and train | 09:16 |
| ttx | https://imgur.com/a/1d6adlp | 09:19 |
| gmann | o/ | 09:22 |
| evrardjp | ttx: thanks for the analysis | 09:22 |
| evrardjp | or I should say the data | 09:22 |
| evrardjp | ttx: what about reviews? | 09:23 |
| evrardjp | both together represent generaly activity I would say | 09:23 |
| ttx | I don't have that data | 09:31 |
| asettle | ttx, I also heard a lot of "I just don't have time" (which is tied into the job being daunting) but the primary thought it that it's going to take up their entire life. I think that's a reasonable fear. I'm not sure how we can distil that with documents. | 09:39 |
| ttx | I wonder how much we should not enforce a pair | 09:55 |
| ttx | Would that make it easier or more complicated | 09:55 |
| ttx | (by pair I mean, ask for two names instead of one) | 09:55 |
| ttx | One theoretical issue from a governance perspective is that we kind of need to know who has the final word | 09:56 |
| evrardjp | For small teams, forcing to put two names might be even more daunting. But I understand the idea. | 09:57 |
| evrardjp | I like the idea for continuity too | 09:58 |
| ttx | If we have 3 people in a team and they all can't spend more than 20% on it, than asking for two names every cycle helps. If it's more of a 30% person and a bunch of 1% persons, it does not help | 09:59 |
| asettle | That's kind of what I was thinking yesterday. | 09:59 |
| asettle | If there was to be 2 names or 3, then one person *has* to be a TC contact. You could workaround that problem with assigned liaisons. | 10:00 |
| ttx | mayyybe any ticket could be a multiname ticket | 10:00 |
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| ttx | Like it's not "one PTL" going for election, it could be a set of names | 10:00 |
| ttx | We'd consider it is the voice of the project as long as there is no dissent (clean and simple way to avoid electing a special person) | 10:01 |
| ttx | then it may not be as daunting | 10:01 |
| asettle | I'd agree with that. I'm sure there's more formalities we'd have to think of, but yeah... | 10:01 |
| asettle | I admit, the first time I went for PTL I thought I was stepping up to a super important position and I was ANXIOUS. This time I was like "yo yo going to be PTL fight me" | 10:02 |
| ttx | "The PTL" would be a set of persons. As long as they are coherent | 10:02 |
| asettle | (okay there was no fighting) | 10:02 |
| asettle | I think that all makes snese | 10:03 |
| ttx | It's sort of an intermediary between going full-maintainers mode | 10:03 |
| ttx | full-maintainers mode you have to tarde-off inclusion (trying to get more) and coherence (make sure everyone speaks the exact same voice) | 10:04 |
| ttx | I'd rather have lots of core devs (favor inclusion instead of coherence) and have a smaller set doing "the PTL" with higher alignment | 10:05 |
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| ttx | can probably scale up to 3 before breaking down | 10:06 |
| ttx | I'll give it some extra thoughts, but we could propose something like that after the election. It could even be rolled out immediately after approval (elected/chosen PTL is free to add) | 10:07 |
| asettle | That would be good. | 10:08 |
| asettle | I mean, unofficially I've already added two of us to the docs ticket. | 10:08 |
| ttx | yes, that does not solve the fear, just the reality :) | 10:08 |
| asettle | Precisely. | 10:08 |
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| evrardjp | just giving the opportunity is a good thing | 10:09 |
| evrardjp | baby steps ;) | 10:09 |
| ttx | as long as the acronym still reads PTL we are free to do anything. It's been a while since we did last change what PTL meant | 10:09 |
| ttx | (I think we had 4 different meanings for the same acronym up to now) | 10:10 |
| evrardjp | oh I need a history lesson -- I thought it was 2 | 10:12 |
| asettle | Project technical lead, project team lead -- what else? | 10:13 |
| ttx | Program technical lead | 10:13 |
| asettle | OH yeah forgot about that one | 10:14 |
| ttx | ISTR there was a 4th | 10:14 |
| asettle | Hmm okay | 10:21 |
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| fungi | quick update on the election... with just under 12 hours to go we have 5 candidates for 6 seats on the tc, and ptl candidates for all but the following 15 teams: Adjutant Cyborg Designate Horizon I18n Manila Nova OpenStackAnsible OpenStackSDK Oslo Placement PowerVMStackers Rally Release_Management Winstackers | 12:16 |
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| mnaser | fungi: 14 teams now | 12:43 |
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| smcginnis | I thought I saw clarb's nomination for infra. | 12:48 |
| smcginnis | Oh, nevermind. Looking at old info. | 12:48 |
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| fungi | yeah, his nomination merged roughly 9 hours ago | 13:24 |
| fungi | my post to the ml was before that | 13:24 |
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| asettle | fungi, I've got a weird scenario on my hands. No one has stepped up to be designate PTL right now, but a SUSE employee, Keith Berger, who has been working on OpenStack and with the community for a long time is interested to step up if there's nobody else. But a few snags: He's an operator, not a developer. So his commits are low (to cinder) if any. | 13:42 |
| asettle | CC mugsie | 13:42 |
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| asettle | Speaking of, fungi this is KeithMnemonic - SUSE employee interested in the PTL spot. | 13:46 |
| fungi | the tc can appoint anyone who volunteers to be a ptl after the nomination period ends, even if the volunteer doesn't meet the criteria to qualify for election | 13:59 |
| smcginnis | asettle, fungi: Unless something has changed, I don't think we had explicitly stated anywhere that being core was a requirement to being a PTL. | 14:08 |
| smcginnis | Or even to have patches merged maybe. | 14:08 |
| asettle | fungi, that's interesting to know. So KeithMnemonic can't necessarily stand for PTL but we can appoint him based on volunteering after the election period is over | 14:08 |
| asettle | Have I understood that correctly? | 14:08 |
| mugsie | smcginnis: he doesn't have commits to the project either | 14:09 |
| smcginnis | Ah, it does say "that are also commiters for one of the team's repositories" now - https://governance.openstack.org/election/#id4 | 14:10 |
| mugsie | but, yes we can appoint PTLs after elections with no commits - we have done it in th epast (searchlight was one afaik) | 14:10 |
| smcginnis | I don't think we had that wording in the past. | 14:10 |
| smcginnis | So yeah, I guess it would have to come down to appointing him if no one else steps up. | 14:11 |
| KeithMnemonic | i am just throwing my name in for the scenario where there is not anyone else. I would do this for freezer as well if needed. I understand my qualification do not meet the guideline but if there is no other options i am glad to help out. no hard feelings either way | 14:11 |
| smcginnis | Thanks KeithMnemonic | 14:12 |
| KeithMnemonic | so like the "Backup generator" as it were | 14:12 |
| KeithMnemonic | or as i told asettle "backup-backup-backup generator" | 14:12 |
| asettle | ;) | 14:12 |
| smcginnis | Speaking of backup generators, are you battening down the hatches fungi? | 14:13 |
| fungi | yup, currently putting plywood over all the windows | 14:14 |
| fungi | mandatory resident evacuation goes into effect early tomorrow morning | 14:15 |
| asettle | Damn that's intense. | 14:15 |
| smcginnis | fungi: Good luck. :/ | 14:15 |
| asettle | fungi, good luck :( | 14:15 |
| fungi | asettle: meh, it's a regular occurrence here. you get used to it | 14:15 |
| fungi | but thanks! | 14:15 |
| asettle | One of those things, huh | 14:15 |
| fungi | the least fun part will be driving 500 miles with two cats in the car to go wait out the storm at my parents' house in the mountains | 14:16 |
| fungi | wind and flood prep is easy by comparison ;) | 14:16 |
| asettle | Erk yeah that's not very appealing. | 14:17 |
| asettle | Brisbane (where I'm from) is massively prone to flooding. But we lived on a hill, so I was very lucky. But my grandmother? Not so much. I spent a large part of my childhood cleaning up after the 2-3 times yearly floods. Her washing machine was next level durable. | 14:18 |
| smcginnis | Switching topics... | 14:19 |
| asettle | SORRY | 14:19 |
| smcginnis | We have some stable/train branch requests right now. | 14:19 |
| smcginnis | We had talked about automating the proposal of the py3 set of tests for each cycle. | 14:20 |
| smcginnis | Which would mean we would have to have usurri tests defined and ready to go for that to happen. | 14:20 |
| smcginnis | So I don't think it will for U. | 14:20 |
| smcginnis | Wondering if we still want to work towards that, and if so, if we need to docuement a required timeline to 1) get the runtimes defined for the next cycle by a certain point, 2) get the test jobs defined based on those identified runtimes, and 3) get the branch automation updated to propose that new job to the master branch of the branching project. | 14:21 |
| smcginnis | Which is probably predicated on 0) getting a name of the next series in time to do all that. | 14:22 |
| smcginnis | Has anyone identified the official distros for Ussuri yet? I'm guessing probably no change from the current runtimes, other than dropping py2. | 14:26 |
| smcginnis | Which we should probably starting making some noise about, even though it's hopefully common knowledge by this point. | 14:26 |
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| mnaser | smcginnis: yes i think that ssafe to assume, last py2 distro was centos 7 | 14:33 |
| mnaser | centos rc seems to be done so only thing left is release | 14:34 |
| fungi | ideally centos 8 exists by the time the ussuri cycle starts, if not we have a tough choice to make | 14:36 |
| mnaser | i think it will | 14:40 |
| mnaser | its probably a few days away from release | 14:40 |
| mugsie | yeah - we said we would be dropping py27 support at the start of U .. | 14:41 |
| fungi | that's probably the only big python runtime change we've got for the next cycle | 14:42 |
| fungi | python 2.8 is still in beta | 14:42 |
| fungi | er, 3.8 | 14:42 |
| mugsie | and we won't be dropping 3.6 yet will we? | 14:43 |
| mugsie | suse people - leap 15 is still the stable right? | 14:43 |
| fungi | 3.6 is the "default" python3 in the latest ubuntu lts | 14:43 |
| mugsie | ok, so we will have 3.6 then | 14:44 |
| fungi | so no, i don't think we can drop 3.6 until ubuntu 20.04 lts is available, so probably start of the v cycle? | 14:44 |
| mugsie | ++ | 14:44 |
| fungi | but in reality probably much, much longer since i suspect that's what rhel8/centos8 will have forever | 14:45 |
| asettle | mugsie, I don't believe it isn't. Why? | 14:45 |
| * fungi doesn't really know what the long-term python package maintenance for rhel is though | 14:45 | |
| mugsie | look at the pti for U | 14:45 |
| mugsie | looking * | 14:46 |
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| mugsie | https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/runtimes/train.html | 14:46 |
| fungi | yeah, so i think it's probably s/centos 7/centos 8/ and s/python 2.7// | 14:46 |
| fungi | maybe a newer nodejs? | 14:47 |
| fungi | more detail about golang? | 14:47 |
| fungi | i don't expect any distros to have python 3.8 at the time train releases | 14:47 |
| fungi | Expected: 3.8.0 final: Monday, 2019-10-21 https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0569/ | 14:48 |
| fungi | (that is to say, python 3.8 packages built from actual release version source code, obviously some distros already have 3.8 beta packages) | 14:48 |
| openstackgerrit | Graham Hayes proposed openstack/governance master: Explicitly declare Ussuri supported runtimes. https://review.opendev.org/679798 | 14:50 |
| fungi | thanks mugsie! | 14:50 |
| mugsie | if I didn't do it now, I would forget :) | 14:51 |
| mugsie | and it is better than powerpoint | 14:51 |
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| dhellmann | mnaser : IIRC, we said we wouldn't drop 2.7 "before the start of U" but not that we would absolutely drop it at that point. In practice, I expect we will drop it, but it's not actually required based on what we've agreed to so far. | 15:24 |
| fungi | the way i interpreted it was that projects were able to choose to drop support for 2.7 as early as the start of the u cycle | 15:25 |
| fungi | but they can keep supporting 2.7 if they want to do so | 15:26 |
| fungi | of course, if their dependencies stop working with 2.7 then all bets are off | 15:26 |
| dhellmann | right | 15:31 |
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| evrardjp | fungi: unpopular question. Do you want to really say that as a message to projects? My concern here is the tendency to keep the cruft in projects, instead of cleaning things. | 15:38 |
| fungi | i think we've not in the past told projects they couldn't support something, only written policies about the minimum set of things they're required to support | 15:39 |
| evrardjp | mnaser: leap 15.0 is outdated. 15.1 is the future! | 15:39 |
| evrardjp | oh sorry that was for mugsie | 15:40 |
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| fungi | infra is switching to just providing a leap "15" image which uses whatever the latest 15.x is | 15:40 |
| evrardjp | correct | 15:40 |
| evrardjp | fungi: I don't want to dictate project what to support, I just don't want a door opened to support something that should not be supported/supportable | 15:41 |
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| evrardjp | support is the wrong term here, maintain is more appropriate | 15:42 |
| evrardjp | maybe* | 15:42 |
| mugsie | evrardjp: is the Runtimes doc correct for 15.1 ? or should we update the version + python versions | 15:43 |
| dhellmann | evrardjp : if you submit a patch to remove python 2 support from oslo.config, 99% of openstack will have to drop python 2 support ;-) | 15:44 |
| evrardjp | haha | 15:45 |
| evrardjp | smart! | 15:45 |
| * asettle makes dramatic OooOOOOooo noises in the background | 15:45 | |
| evrardjp | I didn't mean to crush the current expectations, I just don't want to have an "hold back" attitude either | 15:45 |
| evrardjp | I think it's nowadays possible to run python3 on the major distros for U (centos 7.6/8 incoming), so I think we are at a better place :) | 15:46 |
| evrardjp | mugsie: checking right now! | 15:46 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I definitely think it's safe to drop python 2 as long as all of the services run on 3, but doing that may imply some work (dropping use of six, dropping zuul jobs, etc.) so that's why we phrased the requirements as a "not before" deadline rather than a "not after" deadline | 15:47 |
| dhellmann | well, that and mumble mumble rhel 8 mumble mumble | 15:48 |
| evrardjp | :) ) | 15:48 |
| evrardjp | Yep, I think your phrasing was correct :) | 15:48 |
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| smcginnis | I think I would prefer an explicit drop statement, but fair to leave it to the teams as long as we don't state py2 is an officially supported runtime. | 15:51 |
| smcginnis | I could see some teams not having the bandwidth to deal with refactoring patches. | 15:51 |
| smcginnis | And backporting fixes could be made a little more complicated by aggressive removal of py2 compat code. | 15:52 |
| tosky | (I'm pretty sure that we will see a wave of "remove -py2 unit test jobs" reviews at some points) | 15:52 |
| evrardjp | smcginnis: yeah but that with that mentality, things will stay forever the same :) | 15:52 |
| smcginnis | I do agree. | 15:53 |
| evrardjp | "Projects are free and encouraged to drop py2" | 15:53 |
| smcginnis | I do like "and encouraged" in there. | 15:54 |
| evrardjp | (starting after checkpoint x, as discussed above) | 15:54 |
| evrardjp | I think it would also be fair to say that for a certain cycle, we should not have legacy elements too | 15:55 |
| evrardjp | (so basically what dhellmann started to say, and probably more) | 15:55 |
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| bnemec | FWIW, I think Oslo is planning to start adopting py3-specific type hints ASAP, which is probably when we will drop py2 support. | 16:02 |
| openstackgerrit | Dmitry Tantsur proposed openstack/governance master: Retire networking-generic-switch-tempest-plugin https://review.opendev.org/679816 | 16:02 |
| bnemec | Unless something else that requires py3 comes up before that. | 16:02 |
| evrardjp | bnemec: that's nice! | 16:21 |
| dhellmann | bnemec : that's good to know; it'll be interesting to see what effect that has on use of the libs. Do you plan to put them inline, or in a separate interface file (I forget the extension used for those) | 16:24 |
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| bnemec | dhellmann: I think the reason we were waiting for py3 was so we could do them inline, but it's been a while since I looked at the proposal. | 16:25 |
| dhellmann | makes sense | 16:51 |
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| cdent | tc-members: I'm relatively certain there's going to be no candidate for placement PTL and I'm relatively certain that I'm going to be unable to be the assignee. | 16:58 |
| mnaser | Maybe we can just kill the placement team and make it a nova deliverable. | 17:05 |
| cdent | mnaser: I was hoping that joke could be withheld for at least a little while | 17:06 |
| cdent | I did mention to other members of the placement team that the timing was inconvenient, but if you read my non-nomination message loads of stuff has happened that wouldn't have been possible from within | 17:06 |
| mnaser | It wasn't a joke, it's a serious proposition. If it's mostly consumed and used by Nova the most and more than anything else | 17:06 |
| cdent | of course nova doesn't have a candidate yet | 17:07 |
| mnaser | And it used to live there and then that's probably at least the best possible location | 17:07 |
| cdent | It should be a joke, part of the reason I'm too exhausted to carry on is because of the lack of support I had in reaching the 3.5 year old goal, especially from the TC | 17:07 |
| mnaser | The nova team is the most knowledgeable and biggest consumer of it all | 17:07 |
| cdent | If it had happened at the start we wouldn't be in this spot | 17:08 |
| mnaser | I don't know if it's time for an I told you so comment either. That was rough for all of us and I'm glad we got it there at least. | 17:09 |
| cdent | expressing ones opinion/experience is not the same as a told you so | 17:10 |
| cdent | In any case. I wanted to make it clear that asking me is not really going to be an option, mostly because of the position of my employer: they are not interested in giving me sufficient time to do it (nor much else upstream) | 17:11 |
| mnaser | that's fair, i think ed is also stepping away and he was pretty involved in it | 17:11 |
| * mnaser looks at placement-core | 17:12 | |
| cdent | I'm trying to change that situation but I won't know anything for some days, maybe weeks | 17:12 |
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| cdent | I asked gibi and he's not interested/able | 17:12 |
| cdent | I suggested tetsuro but he's not been around for a few days, so haven't had a chance to understand his position | 17:13 |
| mnaser | cdent: efried ? | 17:14 |
| cdent | he's probably going to get roped into nova, despite hoping someone else might step up | 17:14 |
| cdent | if he's the main option, then yeah, I guess the governance extraction becomes redundant | 17:14 |
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| mnaser | yeah i was just thinking that then rather than him having to ptl two projects then at least it can be simplified | 17:15 |
| mnaser | but i dont think that really changes much in the first place | 17:15 |
| mnaser | there's not that much more work to be ptl of two teams but same amount of deliverables, i think | 17:15 |
| mnaser | there is the ptg-y stuff though which would be duplicated | 17:15 |
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| cdent | at least for U placement has minimal commitments planned, which gibi and tetsuro are going to handle | 17:16 |
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| cdent | s/U/U PTG/ | 17:29 |
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| fungi | evrardjp: i would not be surprised if swift wants to keep python 2.7 testing, at lest for a while. i get the impression they value being able to upgrade your swift deployment on older distros. and if that's something they value i wouldn't want to argue otherwise | 17:32 |
| fungi | just an example, but there could be other projects with similar goals | 17:32 |
| fungi | now if libs they depend on have to be pinned due to breakage on 2.7 such that things stop being effectively co-installable, then that does severely limit testability | 17:33 |
| cdent | If there are updates from the employer side, I'll check back in | 17:38 |
| cdent | night night | 17:38 |
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| mriedem | fwiw i don't think placement should go back under nova in governance, it sends the wrong message and reverts a ton of the work cdent did in extracting it | 17:47 |
| mriedem | there are other consumers besides nova | 17:47 |
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| timburke | fungi, i would agree with that :-) swift would very much like to continue supporting running on 2.7, at least until xenial goes EOL | 18:18 |
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| timburke | if that involves py2-specific version pins, so be it. i fully expect swift-on-py3 to be co-installable, though, and would be fine with having swift be ultimately responsible for continuing our py2 testing | 18:21 |
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| zaneb | fungi: fwiw I wouldn't assume that CentOS 8 will be stuck on py36 for the next 10 years | 18:36 |
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| openstackgerrit | Gage Hugo proposed openstack/governance-sigs master: Update Security SIG chair list and SIG description https://review.opendev.org/679844 | 19:02 |
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| fungi | zaneb: after seeing the things which got backported into python 2.7 on rhel 6 and 7, they seem to be complacent to at least call it the same version they did at original time of release ;) | 19:05 |
| fungi | (whether it's actually comparable to the equivalent upstream version number is another story, i guess) | 19:06 |
| zaneb | I think the idea is to decouple which versions developers use from the system python, precisely to avoid that kind of thing | 19:06 |
| fungi | curious to see how it works in practice once we have centos 8 | 19:07 |
| * zaneb is also curious to see how it will work in practice :) | 19:08 | |
| fungi | looks like we got our sixth tc candidate. it's an excellent roster in my opinion, election official hat off for a moment | 19:12 |
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| TheJulia | fungi: I concur | 19:22 |
| fungi | if there is no seventh, the current six will simply be acclaimed (as is the case when a team has only one ptl candidate) | 19:23 |
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| zaneb | there's always that nervous moment between the 5th good candidate and the 6th good candidate when any nutter could throw their name in and win by default. glad to see we're past that point :) | 19:25 |
| fungi | yeah, i mean, i stepped down so that's one fewer nutter already ;) | 19:26 |
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