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| ricolin | tc-members According to the poll schedule ( https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/release-naming.html#polls ), I will open a public poll and send to ML around 8/12 0:00 UTC time. so let me know if you got any concerns before that time | 16:34 |
|---|---|---|
| fungi | sounds good, thanks again ricolin! | 16:35 |
| ricolin | thx fungi for helping me setting up the CIVS poll | 16:36 |
| fungi | you're most welcome | 16:36 |
| corvus | fungi: does anyone have an explanation for why turnpike does meet the criteria but university does not? | 16:37 |
| corvus | fungi: also, where was this discussion? | 16:37 |
| corvus | ricolin: ^? | 16:37 |
| corvus | i'm also puzzled because the last conversation i had with anyone about this was with ricolin who agreed it did meet the criteria, and the coordinator is the person who decides whether it meets the criteria, and ricolin is the coordinator. | 16:40 |
| corvus | so this is all pretty surprising to me. | 16:41 |
| fungi | after the tc meeting concluded on thursday this discussion began: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/%23openstack-tc.2019-08-08.log.html#t2019-08-08T14:59:01 and it basically came down to whether or not we allowed english words in the poll (noting that the names in the poll are also not chinese, they just happen to be in other languages than english) | 16:41 |
| fungi | there was some discussion about when we allowed english words in other naming polls relating to non-usa summit locations the english words always won | 16:43 |
| fungi | i couldn't get consensus with other tc members around "university" being a conforming choice so it was lumped in with "urban" as a potential exceptin | 16:44 |
| fungi | er, exception | 16:44 |
| corvus | you know, there is no rule that says the name must be non-english | 16:44 |
| fungi | then the tc members were polled as to whether to allow one or both exceptions or none, and none won | 16:44 |
| fungi | yes, the rules around all this seem to be a bit fluid | 16:44 |
| corvus | it's *clearly* a conforming choice, or else turnpike isn't | 16:44 |
| ricolin | corvus, just like fungi said, and University is definitely one of the hardest to decide around TCs that we have to get the final decision by a inner TCs poll. | 16:44 |
| corvus | so here's the problem | 16:45 |
| corvus | if there was going to be a conversation around this, i would have liked to be involved | 16:45 |
| corvus | i did not know there would be one | 16:45 |
| corvus | i thought i had the conversation already with ricolin | 16:45 |
| corvus | and it was decided | 16:45 |
| corvus | if it were going to be reopened, i would have liked a heads up | 16:46 |
| fungi | yes, i'm sorry i didn't think to let you know it kept getting objections every time any of us tried to get it back into the list of options | 16:48 |
| fungi | (objections from other tc members i mean) | 16:50 |
| fungi | i do still think that it seems more representative of shanghai than random place names in mongolia, but my opinion was not shared by the majority of the tc | 16:51 |
| corvus | i think this was handled very poorly, and i am quite upset about it. a lot of work went into that name, and i would have appreciated it if the criteria had not been changed to exclude it with no notice or discussion outside the tc. | 16:51 |
| corvus | i would not be upset if it had lost the poll, or been excluded for trademark reasons. i am only upset because of the unfairness of the process. | 16:52 |
| fungi | i agree, various tc members' concerns with it were not raised in the mailing list thread, and only expressed in a (mostly invisible) irc conversation during office hours | 16:53 |
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| fungi | and i'm personally sorry for the lack of transparency there, as well as the lack of clear or even coordinated feedback | 16:54 |
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| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed openstack/governance master: Stop naming releases https://review.opendev.org/675788 | 16:56 |
| corvus | i was going to wait until we got to Z to suggest that, but i think it's time. | 16:56 |
| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed openstack/governance master: Stop naming releases https://review.opendev.org/675788 | 17:00 |
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| corvus | ricolin: i hope you understand why i am surprised that it was removed again; this email message seemed pretty firm on the matter: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-August/008334.html | 17:27 |
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| ricolin | corvus, apologize for the delayed reply, I actually keep typing during the entire discussion happens(1:40 am make me a slow typer) | 17:45 |
| ricolin | First, sorry for all confusions and hard feeling that I put on you. I feel I should ping all members like you (who spend their own time to provide names during the proposal stage) to join any naming discussions. | 17:45 |
| ricolin | After our conversation in http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/%23openstack-tc.2019-08-07.log.html#t2019-08-07T14:38:38 I did add it in the meet criteria list as it still remains. | 17:45 |
| ricolin | University is the hardest one for the following reason. | 17:45 |
| ricolin | The *University* option either referring to any specific University which for some concerns it does meet the potential issues of trademark (see line #4 in https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/release-naming.html ). Or if we count it referring to general *University*, it's not meet the criteria. | 17:45 |
| ricolin | During the final process (TCs decide the final list before we send out the CIVS poll) We basically ask each(11/13) TC member in the poll if they allow University in the list, but unfortunately, the final decision is not in favor of *University* (and *Urban*). | 17:45 |
| ricolin | Since it's clear that TCs owns the final decision, I will respect that result. | 17:45 |
| ricolin | What I'm going to do is to postpone the poll for 24 hours (if no other TC against) so all get chances to know about the current discussion and confirms TCs aware of these and see if any of them think we should rediscuss about this process. | 17:45 |
| fungi | i'll reiterate what i said last week, the tc doesn't need to pre-vet the options for possible trademark issues. the osf will take care of that anyway after the community ranks the options we present | 17:47 |
| corvus | ricolin: i'm sorry you're up at 1:40am! i'd be happy to talk on email, you should get some sleep! :) | 17:47 |
| fungi | so i don't think possible trademark concerns should weigh on our decisions | 17:47 |
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| corvus | ricolin: thanks for the additional info. that's the first time i've seen point 4 raised as an objection. i agree that there is some potential for confusion there. my interpretation is that it was focused on "Foo" not "City" or "Peak". as in, it says we shouldn't have "Foo Peak" or "Foo City" both on the poll. i would interpret it as being neutral about the descriptive word itself, but i agree | 17:49 |
| corvus | that it's unclear, and that someone could read it as forbidding descriptive words. | 17:49 |
| corvus | the reason i think it should not be read that way, is that in general, we tried to get as many good names as possible on the poll. we usually err on the side of inclusion rather than exclusion. | 17:50 |
| corvus | (also, "pike" is precedent) | 17:52 |
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| corvus | ("pike" is short for "massachussets turnpike") | 17:53 |
| corvus | or however you spell mass. that's why i moved away. | 17:54 |
| fungi | yes, my #1 rule for living somewhere is that i'm able to actually spell it | 18:03 |
| ricolin | corvus, NP, it's job responsibility of a coordinator to make sure we can get all the best solution for the naming stuff, and your ideas matters to me. I agree that we should make more clear message in that documents to make sure anyone who plan to help will not get any set backs. I'm afraid that I'm not the best candidate to make change of that docs (I make typos, a lot of typos:)), but I will make sure others aware of this issue so we can use | 18:07 |
| ricolin | this chance and make a better doc. As for the naming propose process discussion, feel free to keep developing (got to sleep:), and hope we will come out with the best naming process. I actually believe in just a single alphabet for name (and that's why I propose "U" on that wiki) | 18:07 |
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| ricolin | tc-members the origin plan is to publish poll at 8/12 00:00 UTC. I propose we postpone the poll for 24 hours (if no other TC against), please see above discussion and ML for more details http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-August/008410.html | 18:11 |
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