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| openstackgerrit | Thierry Carrez proposed openstack/governance master: Indicate release style for each repository https://review.openstack.org/613268 | 10:58 |
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| ttx | zaneb: I like how your emails brought a new set of people to the draft! | 12:09 |
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| smcginnis | Looks like they worked to get more folks looking at that. | 12:18 |
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| openstackgerrit | Thierry Carrez proposed openstack/governance master: Indicate release style for each repository https://review.openstack.org/613268 | 12:19 |
| cdent | ttx do you have insight into the changes in the bylaws related to the tc. couple of questions: | 13:12 |
| cdent | is the 16 month simply a safety valve in csae things change or is it driven by something else? | 13:12 |
| cdent | sorry, 18 | 13:12 |
| cdent | and do you know why the and "shall appoint a mediator to assist" block was removed? (or was it moved, not re-moved?) | 13:13 |
| cdent | jbryce or fungi you too on^ | 13:14 |
| jbryce | cdent: the the sixteen months is to account for a scenario where there are longer release cycles. that section will have to be edited still...basically we need to define some kind of term, but because the elections go with release cycles, that's very hard to do and we've ended up with kind of a franken-wording | 13:16 |
| jbryce | we'll talk about it on the call today and see how the board feels about ambiguity there | 13:17 |
| cdent | I thought perhaps that was it: we might change cycles, we're not sure, let's cover that with some hand waving | 13:17 |
| smcginnis | I did think it seemed a little hand wavish. But it did still state 12 month terms I believe. | 13:17 |
| smcginnis | So the technical part of me doesn't like the ambiguity, but the governance part of me thinks it covers things well. :) | 13:18 |
| jbryce | yeah it's kind of like we don't have even cycles already so hand wave a little, but not surprisingly, it isn't the best from a legal perspective so we'll also say 12-month for now | 13:18 |
| * cdent shakes tiny fist at legalese | 13:19 | |
| jbryce | on removing the mediator piece, that was just in the list of changes that ttx and fungi shared with me | 13:19 |
| cdent | It's interesting, because as far as I can tell it is the only mode of escalation out of the tc, thus seemed like something which should have been discussed more broadly in the tc | 13:20 |
| cdent | we _could_ move it into tc charter/resolution and that would probably be fine | 13:20 |
| cdent | but it would be good to make sure one does go away before the other shows up | 13:20 |
| cdent | sigh... doesn't go away | 13:21 |
| smcginnis | Instead of a mediator, we can have a battle of wits. | 13:24 |
| ttx | yes the "at most sixteen months" is a way to allow to link election to cycles/events | 13:27 |
| ttx | The mediator thing was deemed a bit too much leaning into implementation details which belong to TC charter | 13:30 |
| ttx | That was lower priority, iirc it was suggested by fungi | 13:30 |
| ttx | jbryce: for the 16 months, maybe saying something like "approximately 12 months | 13:32 |
| ttx | and at most 16 months" | 13:32 |
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| jbryce | i think those were too loosely defined, but we can talk about it on the call too | 13:33 |
| jbryce | unless you just want to move to calendar terms and then it all is a lot easier = ) | 13:37 |
| smcginnis | What about "within +/- 2 months of the OpenStack release cycle"? That's probably too loosely defined too. | 13:39 |
| ttx | yeah... I feel like capping it is good enough for teh bylaws | 13:41 |
| ttx | The idea is to remove as much as we can from bylaws while keeping safeguards | 13:41 |
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| fungi | cdent: right, i figured dispute mediation provided by the board of directors was just one more thing we can define in our charter. in my opinion the less the bylaws impose on the tc's self-governance choices the better | 13:45 |
| cdent | fungi: is there an alternative already planned or is that something for the todo list? | 13:45 |
| fungi | cdent: it was something i planned to jump on _if_ the board was in favor of that change | 13:46 |
| ttx | yeah, let's see how that one flies first | 13:46 |
| cdent | cool, thanks | 13:46 |
| fungi | but for me the biggest improvement, by far, is the declaration that the tc member policy can be changed by a vode of the board of directors now instead of a vote of at least 10% of the entire foundation membership | 13:46 |
| fungi | s/vode/vote/ | 13:46 |
| fungi | well, can be changed by a vote of the board of directors and tc members together, obviously | 13:47 |
| fungi | to prevent them changing it in ways we don't approve | 13:47 |
| fungi | but we no longer have to muster a vote of the foundation membership to fix a typo (after this next vote, assuming it passes) | 13:48 |
| smcginnis | That would be nice. | 13:48 |
| mnaser | tc-members: reminder that board meeting call is happening shortly in a few minutes | 13:53 |
| mnaser | https://openstack.webex.com/openstack/k2/j.php?MTID=t8c39af405243e813e98c15a011ac5007 | 13:53 |
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| tosky | hi all, we are going to have the sahara meeting in 7 minutes, would anyone from the TC like to jump in for the cloud vision discussion, or do you prefer us (sahara) to discuss it here at some point? | 13:54 |
| cdent | tosky: I suspect people can jump in, where's the meeting? | 13:55 |
| cdent | evrardjp: you might be interested in ^ | 13:56 |
| tosky | #openstack-meeting-3 in 4 minutes | 13:56 |
| TheJulia | of course webex breaks on me :( | 14:00 |
| fungi | i use the telephone | 14:00 |
| TheJulia | I need to put in a cell repeater for the office. Cinder block walls and absurdly far away cell towers | 14:01 |
| fungi | yeah, that's rough | 14:02 |
| fungi | http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/foundation/2018-October/002635.html | 14:04 |
| fungi | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/Foundation/25Oct2018BoardMeeting | 14:04 |
| fungi | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/UnofficialBoardNotes-Oct25-2018 | 14:04 |
| fungi | also #openstack-board channel | 14:05 |
| evrardjp | cdent: thanks for the ping | 14:05 |
| zaneb | tosky: joined | 14:05 |
| tosky | thanks | 14:05 |
| ttx | E_TOOMANYJULIAS | 14:08 |
| TheJulia | heh | 14:08 |
| TheJulia | This is not a bad thing... | 14:08 |
| ttx | Yes, a good problem to have | 14:08 |
| cdent | fungi: etherpad is doing its slowness thing _right now_, in case you were looking for that | 14:11 |
| fungi | cdent: interesting, thanks! i agree it's slow again so my upgrades to the trove instance for it don't seem to have fixed that | 14:12 |
| fungi | and just as before, system cpu utilization has just started spiking up as of 14:00z | 14:13 |
| smcginnis | It seems really random for me over the last day or so. Some times loading an etherpad takes a veeery long time, sometimes it's instant. | 14:13 |
| lbragstad | is there is link to the slides for this meeting? | 14:15 |
| smcginnis | lbragstad: See the attachment here - http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/foundation-board/2018-October/000449.html | 14:16 |
| lbragstad | aha - perfect, thanks smcginnis | 14:17 |
| fungi | smcginnis: yesterday it cleared up because i had to restart the etherpad nodejs process. i think it's memory pressure on the server looking at cacti. etherpad seems to use a large amount of cache memory even more or less at rest | 14:18 |
| fungi | so this may be fallout from last week's upgrade from ubuntu 14.04 to 16.04 | 14:18 |
| smcginnis | Sounds more like a java app. | 14:18 |
| fungi | fully in favor of constraining the osf board to say it can't approve software projects which aren't open source | 14:21 |
| cmurphy | o.0 is that a risk? | 14:21 |
| ttx | cmurphy: probably not, which is why the vagueness in the proposed change is completely superfluous | 14:23 |
| ttx | fungi: we should have caught that in our read a few hours ago | 14:23 |
| smcginnis | I originally thought they were suggesting that something other than software could be managed by the OSF. | 14:24 |
| smcginnis | Not that we would do proprietary software. | 14:24 |
| * cmurphy hopes it's puppies | 14:25 | |
| fungi | ttx: yeah, i'm disappointed i didn't think of that too | 14:25 |
| ttx | open puppies are a bit messy | 14:25 |
| smcginnis | cmurphy: :) | 14:25 |
| smcginnis | ttx: Eeww | 14:25 |
| fungi | smcginnis: yeah, i'd like to leave the option for non-software projects without also opening the door for the possibility of the board approving software projects which aren't open source | 14:26 |
| smcginnis | fungi: ++ | 14:26 |
| TheJulia | cmurphy: kittens may be more fun. :) | 14:26 |
| zaneb | how out of touch is this guy? | 14:35 |
| * lbragstad goes back to taking notes in vim - i can update the etherpad later though | 14:36 | |
| smcginnis | fungi: I would expect most members not to be on IRC, unfortunately. | 14:40 |
| fungi | smcginnis: a few do show up in the output of /names | 14:40 |
| -openstackstatus- NOTICE: Zuul and Nodepool services are being restarted to migrate them to a new Zookeeper cluster. THis brings us an HA database running on newer servers. | 14:40 | |
| TheJulia | lbragstad: was that you typing in etherpad? | 14:42 |
| TheJulia | lbragstad: disregard last question | 14:42 |
| ttx | zaneb: quite | 14:43 |
| zaneb | should we require a supermajority of the TC to change the TC member policy? | 14:48 |
| ttx | maybe yes | 14:49 |
| ttx | We could overload that in our charter though | 14:49 |
| TheJulia | ++ | 14:50 |
| ttx | (or we can ask for that in our official feedback) | 14:50 |
| ttx | (pretty sure teh BoD would not care) | 14:50 |
| TheJulia | So far everything seems cleanup + Open Infrastucture official governance which I don't feel we really have or should have any official voice in | 14:51 |
| ttx | the TC member policy appendix is next | 14:52 |
| ttx | TheJulia: you might have more opinion on that | 14:52 |
| TheJulia | Yes, reading now | 14:52 |
| mnaser | ..but | 14:53 |
| mnaser | we're going to get back to it | 14:53 |
| mnaser | this is just the first presentation | 14:53 |
| mnaser | question mark | 14:53 |
| ttx | mnaser: yes | 14:53 |
| mnaser | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ | 14:54 |
| fungi | zaneb: if we want to flag parts of the charter which require a vote of the tc electorate (not just the tc) we can even do that | 14:55 |
| TheJulia | 2(a) changes seem reasonable | 14:56 |
| fungi | a bunch of it is just cleaning up no-longer-relevant cruft | 14:56 |
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| ttx | It's all about giving us flexibility to align elections on slightly-longer/slightly-smaller cycles | 14:56 |
| ttx | with a cap in that flexibility | 14:56 |
| cdent | tc member for life!!! | 14:57 |
| mnaser | for lyf** | 14:57 |
| fungi | yes, the added/altered bits of 2a are because, in fact, we've probably already violated the way it's currently worded on multiple occasions | 14:57 |
| ttx | fungi: hmm, the wording changed again | 14:57 |
| fungi | oof | 14:58 |
| smcginnis | Yep | 14:58 |
| ttx | wording is contradictory now :/ | 14:58 |
| TheJulia | breaking 2a into two parts might make more sense | 15:00 |
| TheJulia | I read it as really just allowing routing around the cycle boundary issue | 15:00 |
| zaneb | I assume 16 months was chosen because it's 2x 8 months? | 15:03 |
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| jbryce | zaneb: correct | 15:05 |
| zaneb | please let make the bylaws depend on the release cycle. the last thing we need is release cycles defined in the bylaws | 15:05 |
| zaneb | *don't* let | 15:06 |
| cdent | good point zaneb . there may come a time when we never have formal releases but still exist | 15:06 |
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| evrardjp | I agree with zaneb | 15:07 |
| fungi | a lot of this is also being said in #openstack-board | 15:07 |
| fungi | but a lot of people don't seem to be in there | 15:07 |
| cdent | oh hey, it's office hours | 15:07 |
| evrardjp | that would leave room to office hours | 15:07 |
| evrardjp | cdent: haha | 15:07 |
| zaneb | oh. I am there but I was not watching :D | 15:07 |
| smcginnis | zaneb: That's a fair point. Sounds like it would be too difficult to define in the bylaws anyway. | 15:09 |
| TheJulia | I'm not sure I can do office hours and keep track of discussion :) | 15:09 |
| TheJulia | I concur that we don't want that, but we want intent codified. The original was explicitly based upon the original expectations, so a happy medium is really required imho | 15:10 |
| evrardjp | could we ask that these meeting do not overlap with our office hours next time? | 15:11 |
| cdent | evrardjp: in the past the overlap has been convenient because it means that there's already governance-related chunk of time set aside | 15:11 |
| TheJulia | Eh, the board is going to do what the board wants and what is reasonable time. This does happen to be a moderately reasonable time given the curse of time zones | 15:11 |
| cdent | as in: I'm more likely to attend the board meeting at this time than any other | 15:12 |
| smcginnis | I've unfortunately gotten somewhat used to overlapping attention demands. | 15:12 |
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| cdent | don't normalize your oppression smcginnis | 15:13 |
| TheJulia | heh | 15:14 |
| * fungi is triple-booked between this, the board call, and the security sig meeting | 15:14 | |
| fungi | i agree being this used to overlapping attention demands is unfortunate | 15:14 |
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| fungi | oh, and infra maintenance happening now too, which i've basically been unable to pay attention to/help with as a result :/ | 15:15 |
| TheJulia | Well this may be interesting discussion now | 15:16 |
| smcginnis | When do we get our direct neural cortex fiber optic implants. | 15:16 |
| TheJulia | smcginnis: Next week, Also when all forms of payments are credits. | 15:17 |
| smcginnis | \o/ | 15:17 |
| smcginnis | And when we switch to no timezone, no daylight savings time. And metric. | 15:17 |
| fungi | and all restaurants are taco bell | 15:17 |
| TheJulia | and the ocean is now much closer due to sea level rise | 15:18 |
| smcginnis | Beachfront property! | 15:18 |
| TheJulia | Oh, and we're doing GeoEngineering! | 15:18 |
| evrardjp | smcginnis: sounds like good demands. | 15:19 |
| ttx | legalese grammar question now | 15:19 |
| evrardjp | tell me when your employer provides it, please. | 15:19 |
| smcginnis | :) | 15:20 |
| * TheJulia wonders if there is a graph or data points that can help drive the current discussion | 15:25 | |
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| -openstackstatus- NOTICE: The Zuul and Nodepool database transition is complete. Changes updated during the Zuul outage may need to be rechecked. | 15:32 | |
| evrardjp | For people interested, here is the link to the profile of Horace Li, China Community Manager @OpenStack Foundation: https://www.openstack.org/community/members/profile/98596/horace-li (If I am not mistaken) :) | 15:34 |
| fungi | evrardjp: yep! he's an awesome person. see also https://www.openstack.org/foundation/staff | 15:46 |
| fungi | the openstack logos under the headshots all link to the corresponding member profiles | 15:47 |
| evrardjp | fungi: I thought it was a good thing to share for the office hour :) | 15:48 |
| fungi | absolutely! | 15:48 |
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| fungi | hrm, i just noticed that the osf publishes a list of openstack tc members on their marketing site at https://www.openstack.org/foundation/tech-committee/ | 16:37 |
| fungi | does it rub anyone else the wrong way that we have employer affiliations listed there? we expressly avoid listing things like that at https://governance.openstack.org/tc/#current-members | 16:38 |
| cmurphy | some companies allow employees time to be on the tc in part because that page gives them bragging rights | 16:41 |
| dtroyer | fungi: it does, until the value of $EMPLOYER comes in to play for counting reasons | 16:41 |
| cdent | aw man, my bagpuss pic is not showing up :( | 16:42 |
| cdent | but i agree, I don't want my company affiliation showing up there | 16:42 |
| cdent | also, it needs an update | 16:42 |
| cdent | (since election) | 16:43 |
| fungi | yeah, for the other projects at https://www.openstack.org/foundation/ their governing bodies just link to their individual project governance docs | 16:43 |
| fungi | which i guess so far is the architectural committee for kata containers | 16:44 |
| fungi | and the working committee | 16:44 |
| dtroyer | the stx TSC isn't quite fully-formed yet but our docs are live! :) | 16:45 |
| fungi | clarkb pointed out to me elsewhere that the likely reason kata lists organizational representation there is due to being initially appointed by those organizations who were given a seat on those governing bodies | 16:46 |
| fungi | though that was historical. at least some of those have been elected by their contributors since | 16:46 |
| dtroyer | I think that is unavoidable in the bootstrapping phase, having been going through that now myself. I hope to see the day when that shift can happen like it did for OpenStack | 16:48 |
| * zaneb must be coming up to the 10th anniversary of that profile pic | 17:00 | |
| fungi | jbryce also pointed out elsewhere that because we have a maximum proportional affiliation for the tc, we need to publicly list our affiliations somewhere. for me, i think it's more the mixing of that information with bios and headshots which sends a conflicting message (for the people who do manage to stumble across it) | 17:03 |
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| evrardjp | fungi: I am not sure to understand what is the conflicting message to you? The photo, the bio, or the affiliation? | 20:27 |
| smcginnis | Seeing my photo anywhere is always conflicting. :) | 20:37 |
| fungi | photo and bio are about getting to know the tc member, who they work for is more of a technicality which should only matter when it comes to making sure we aren't violating the 50% rule in the bylaws | 20:58 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Add cells charm and interfaces https://review.openstack.org/608866 | 20:59 |
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