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| anteaya | #startmeeting third-party | 08:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Feb 10 08:00:54 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 08:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 08:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 08:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'third_party' | 08:00 |
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| anteaya | say hello if you are here for the third party meeting | 08:01 |
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| jyuso1 | anteaya: hello | 08:23 |
| anteaya | jyuso1: hello | 08:23 |
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| anteaya | nice to see you | 08:24 |
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| jyuso1 | anteaya: nice to see you too:) | 08:24 |
| anteaya | :) | 08:24 |
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| anteaya | how are things going for you? | 08:24 |
| jyuso1 | anteaya: we are testing our sriov CI these days,so missed some 3rd party meeting:) | 08:24 |
| anteaya | understandable | 08:25 |
| jyuso1 | anteaya: good thanks:) | 08:25 |
| anteaya | how is it coming along? | 08:25 |
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| jyuso1 | anteaya: test case and 3rd part account is ready.we are testing it offline. | 08:27 |
| anteaya | good | 08:27 |
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| jyuso1 | anteaya: may i ask a question about 3rd party account? | 08:28 |
| anteaya | please do | 08:28 |
| jyuso1 | anteaya: we have 3 kinds of CI,like Intel networking CI,Intel PCI CI,Intel SRIOV CI | 08:28 |
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| jyuso1 | anteaya: But I don't want to apply 3 email address to those 3 CI.Could I use one email address corresponding to all of those three CI account? | 08:30 |
| anteaya | ah no you can't | 08:30 |
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| anteaya | since in gerrit the email part of the account must be unique | 08:30 |
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| anteaya | but you can set up two of them as forwarded to the first one, can you not? | 08:31 |
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| jyuso1 | anteaya: Oh.sounds like i should ask IT colleague in our corp:) | 08:31 |
| jyuso1 | anteaya: don't know that yet | 08:32 |
| anteaya | jyuso1: that would be a good idea | 08:32 |
| anteaya | yes | 08:32 |
| anteaya | gerrit needs a unique email address for every account | 08:32 |
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| jyuso1 | anteaya: Yes,it is just a little inconvenient for those who have more CI:) | 08:34 |
| jyuso1 | anteaya: thanks | 08:34 |
| anteaya | yes, I can see that | 08:34 |
| anteaya | thanks for asking | 08:34 |
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| jyuso1 | anteaya: thanks for the meeting.I could always found something useful here,really:) | 08:35 |
| anteaya | glad to hear that | 08:35 |
| anteaya | thank you | 08:35 |
| jyuso1 | :) | 08:36 |
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| anteaya | jyuso1: so right now folks are trying to find out what is happening on the intel side as far as nfv testing is going | 08:36 |
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| anteaya | from what I understand, intel divided the work internally, giving your team pci and sr-iov | 08:37 |
| jyuso1 | anteaya: yes,that's true. | 08:37 |
| anteaya | with some folks from ireland working on the nfv portions | 08:37 |
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| anteaya | the last email I had, I had asked to have someone from ireland available on irc | 08:37 |
| anteaya | like you are | 08:37 |
| jyuso1 | anteaya: yes,we have communicate sometimes | 08:37 |
| anteaya | :) | 08:37 |
| anteaya | any idea if that is happening? | 08:37 |
| jyuso1 | anteaya: :) | 08:37 |
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| anteaya | the fact that you are here on irc all the time really makes a difference | 08:38 |
| jyuso1 | anteaya: OK,I just have one of those guy's email address | 08:38 |
| anteaya | great | 08:38 |
| jyuso1 | anteaya: so I don't know about their irc id ,sorry | 08:39 |
| anteaya | can you email me and that other person and introduce me? | 08:39 |
| anteaya | perhaps that person can let me know who will be on irc | 08:39 |
| anteaya | I think you still have my email address | 08:40 |
| jyuso1 | anteaya: OK,maybe I could help to write an email to that guy.You just want to know the nfv ci process may be I could say that way? | 08:41 |
| anteaya | that would be great, thank you | 08:41 |
| anteaya | and cc adrian too | 08:41 |
| anteaya | so he knows | 08:41 |
| jyuso1 | anteaya: OK,I think I could help | 08:42 |
| jyuso1 | anteaya: np | 08:42 |
| anteaya | thank you so much | 08:42 |
| jyuso1 | anteaya: you are welcome | 08:42 |
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| anteaya | :) | 08:45 |
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| jyuso1 | anteaya: I've asked heyongli for help.he said he could help to send that email:) | 08:48 |
| anteaya | jyuso1: thank you | 08:48 |
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| jyuso1 | anteaya: I should back to work now,Thanks for the meeting:) | 08:52 |
| anteaya | jyuso1: thanks for your attendance | 08:52 |
| anteaya | I can end it here | 08:52 |
| anteaya | #endmeeting | 08:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 08:52 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Feb 10 08:52:32 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 08:52 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-02-10-08.00.html | 08:52 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-02-10-08.00.txt | 08:52 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-02-10-08.00.log.html | 08:52 |
| * anteaya waits 8 minutes for the next one | 08:52 | |
| heyongli | anteaya, i will send mail to Hoban, Adrian to check the NFV states. | 08:53 |
| anteaya | heyongli: thank you | 08:54 |
| anteaya | heyongli: I appreciate your help | 08:54 |
| heyongli | welcome, anteaya | 08:54 |
| anteaya | I mostly need to know who to ask when I have a question as I understand this isn't your assigned work | 08:54 |
| anteaya | :) | 08:54 |
| heyongli | sure, | 08:54 |
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| anteaya | #startmeeting nova-net-to-neutron-migration | 09:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Feb 10 09:00:07 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is anteaya. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 09:00 |
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| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 09:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)" | 09:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'nova_net_to_neutron_migration' | 09:00 |
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| anteaya | hello hello | 09:00 |
| jlibosva | hello | 09:00 |
| obondarev | hi | 09:00 |
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| spandhe | hello! | 09:00 |
| anteaya | yay spandhe is here! | 09:00 |
| belmoreira | hi | 09:00 |
| anteaya | great | 09:00 |
| spandhe | :) | 09:00 |
| anteaya | jlibosva obondarev belmoreira nice to see you | 09:00 |
| anteaya | gus: are you about? | 09:00 |
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| anteaya | let's get going | 09:01 |
| anteaya | #topic the state of the Neutron spec (obondarev) | 09:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "the state of the Neutron spec (obondarev) (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)" | 09:01 | |
| obondarev | so the first part of the spec was merged which is great | 09:01 |
| anteaya | obondarev: you're up | 09:01 |
| anteaya | yay team! | 09:01 |
| obondarev | and means we're moving forward | 09:01 |
| spandhe | great! | 09:02 |
| anteaya | nice work everyone | 09:02 |
| obondarev | the second part lacks reviews a bit | 09:02 |
| obondarev | but also lacks some details of the process | 09:02 |
| gus | (hi) | 09:02 |
| obondarev | we can wait for comments to iterate further | 09:02 |
| anteaya | nice summary | 09:02 |
| obondarev | or just start adding details | 09:02 |
| obondarev | anteaya: thanks | 09:02 |
| anteaya | so yes, congratulations to everyone for their hard work in getting the first patch to the spec merged | 09:03 |
| anteaya | well done! | 09:03 |
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| anteaya | we can address next steps for the merged portion in the documentation topic | 09:03 |
| gus | I think a lot of people weren't looking at the second until the first was submitted, so I think (hope) a bunch of those will jump over to the second patch now. | 09:03 |
| anteaya | now for the second part | 09:03 |
| anteaya | gus: that hopefully is the case | 09:04 |
| obondarev | I hope so too | 09:04 |
| anteaya | at the nova mid-cycle some folks stated that they need to see proof of concept code to review the second part of the spec | 09:04 |
| anteaya | so my feeling right now is that the two patches we have up, obondarev's and jlibosva's, will be reviewed first before the second part of the spec is reviewed | 09:05 |
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| anteaya | does that make sense to folks? | 09:05 |
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| obondarev | anteaya: it does | 09:05 |
| anteaya | great | 09:06 |
| * jlibosva nods | 09:06 | |
| gus | yep. | 09:06 |
| obondarev | also I think one major thing that is not well detailed in the spec is about working in mixed nova-net/neutron env | 09:06 |
| anteaya | so shall we move topics to implementation and see where we are on those patches? | 09:06 |
| anteaya | obondarev: ah okay go ahead with your point | 09:06 |
| obondarev | where internal and external connectivity should be kept for both types of hypervisors | 09:06 |
| obondarev | currently we have "Bring up neutron network (l3) nodes" as the final step | 09:06 |
| obondarev | but I'm not sure how to provide external connectivity for "has_transitioned" hypervisors then | 09:07 |
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| obondarev | while we're in the middle of the big migration loop | 09:07 |
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| obondarev | I'll add comments on this to the review | 09:07 |
| obondarev | and I can start to look into this | 09:07 |
| anteaya | does anyone else have any feedback on obondarev's point? | 09:08 |
| gus | The routers (or gateways I think nova calls them) should have the same mac+ip address, and the wire format is compatible (because we chose it that way). | 09:08 |
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| gus | so the idea was the nova gateways would stay up until all the hosts are transitioned across, and then in that latter (poorly defined atm) step we would switch them out for neutron routers. | 09:08 |
| gus | I don't have good suggestions for how we actually do that switch :/ | 09:09 |
| obondarev | gus: I see | 09:09 |
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| obondarev | this needs some experiments/prototyping as well I guess | 09:09 |
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| gus | yes, definitely. | 09:10 |
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| gus | obondarev: does that seem reasonable? | 09:10 |
| obondarev | gus: yes, so let's get initial steps done then | 09:11 |
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| gus | yep. | 09:11 |
| anteaya | obondarev: thanks for raising the point | 09:11 |
| anteaya | obondarev: you are able to capture these thoughts in a comment on the patch? | 09:11 |
| obondarev | anteaya: I will | 09:12 |
| anteaya | obondarev: thank you | 09:12 |
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| anteaya | any objection to moving to a discussion of implementation? | 09:12 |
| anteaya | #topic the state of implementation (obondarev) | 09:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "the state of implementation (obondarev) (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)" | 09:12 | |
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| anteaya | here we are | 09:12 |
| anteaya | obondarev: to you | 09:12 |
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| obondarev | sure | 09:12 |
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| obondarev | jlibosva: can you please update on db migration? | 09:13 |
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| anteaya | we seem to lose him | 09:13 |
| jlibosva | well, I had some unplanned events last week so I didn't do much work on it (my apologies) | 09:13 |
| anteaya | ah here we are | 09:13 |
| anteaya | jlibosva: what are your current thoughts? | 09:14 |
| jlibosva | I did some work yesterday mostly about creating networks out of floating ips pools | 09:14 |
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| obondarev | jlibosva: do you mean external networks? | 09:14 |
| jlibosva | yes | 09:14 |
| obondarev | jlibosva: ok, cool | 09:14 |
| anteaya | jlibosva: is that work reflected in the current patch? | 09:15 |
| jlibosva | I'm now trying to find out where to get gateway for external subnets | 09:15 |
| jlibosva | anteaya: no, it's only local. not sent to review yet | 09:15 |
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| anteaya | jlibosva: can we try to get in the habit of submitting all the work | 09:15 |
| anteaya | even if it doesn't work yet | 09:15 |
| anteaya | it helps folks see what you mean when you bring it up in discussion | 09:16 |
| jlibosva | anteaya: yes, sorry | 09:16 |
| anteaya | jlibosva: it is okay, it has to become a habit, which takes time | 09:16 |
| anteaya | and thank you | 09:16 |
| anteaya | you were saying | 09:16 |
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| anteaya | you are working on getting gateways for external subnets | 09:17 |
| obondarev | jlibosva: you can raise you concerns on this in the ML | 09:17 |
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| jlibosva | obondarev: good idea, I will try to look more on the code and then I'll send an email | 09:17 |
| anteaya | the gateways would come from where? | 09:18 |
| anteaya | nova? | 09:18 |
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| jlibosva | well, the only source of information I have is nova database. And I believe the gateway of exeternal network should be the gateway on the physical network | 09:19 |
| anteaya | hmmm, so that would be different for each operator potentially? | 09:19 |
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| anteaya | or you would have to access the nova database? | 09:20 |
| jlibosva | I think so. We could provide it as a parameter. But now it's getting more and more parameters so maybe some config file would make better sense | 09:20 |
| jlibosva | that was for previous answer | 09:20 |
| anteaya | I do like config files | 09:20 |
| jlibosva | during migration nova db is already accessed | 09:20 |
| anteaya | if you went to the mailing list, who would you be hoping would respond? | 09:21 |
| belmoreira | jlibosva: in the case of using a "flat network" configuration with linux bridge, the gateway configuration in nova-network is not needed since it will use the compute node configuration. | 09:21 |
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| jlibosva | belmoreira: right, but the migration should cover all network managers | 09:21 |
| anteaya | I thought our use case was the flat network | 09:22 |
| anteaya | am I wrong? | 09:22 |
| jlibosva | really? I'm doing all of them | 09:22 |
| anteaya | or the use case we are addressing our work to | 09:22 |
| anteaya | then this is a good question | 09:23 |
| anteaya | gus obondarev can you share your thoughts? | 09:23 |
| obondarev | anteaya: I think we should support all of them | 09:23 |
| jlibosva | in the meantime - I sent my current work to gerrit | 09:23 |
| anteaya | gus: ? | 09:23 |
| gus | the hope was anything that has a (direct) equivalent in neutron. Obviously if there's a simpler combination we should do that first. | 09:23 |
| anteaya | jlibosva: thank you | 09:23 |
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| anteaya | is the flat network the simplier choice? | 09:23 |
| jlibosva | yes | 09:24 |
| anteaya | then my vote is for the flat network first | 09:24 |
| * gus agrees. | 09:24 | |
| obondarev | "This process supports any nova-network and neutron deployment options which are wire-compatible" | 09:24 |
| jlibosva | My opinion is that from db perspective the change between flat and vlan wouldn't be large. I might be wrong though | 09:24 |
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| obondarev | this is from the merged part of the spec | 09:24 |
| gus | At this point it's important to get an end-to-end proof-of-concept working, even if we have to leave a few TODOs around. | 09:25 |
| obondarev | gus: agree | 09:25 |
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| belmoreira | gus: +1 | 09:25 |
| anteaya | let's get somethign we can test | 09:25 |
| jlibosva | ok | 09:26 |
| anteaya | and yes, thanks obondarev for finding that from the spec, we have to acknowledge we have a todo here to expand once we get something working | 09:26 |
| anteaya | fair enough? | 09:26 |
| jlibosva | belmoreira: so when using flat network, I assume every fip pool will be tied to a bridge and thus I don't need to care about gateways | 09:26 |
| jlibosva | is that correct? | 09:26 |
| obondarev | anteaya: agree | 09:26 |
| belmoreira | jlibosva: I believe so | 09:27 |
| jlibosva | thanks | 09:27 |
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| anteaya | jlibosva: do you have what you need to continue working for now? | 09:27 |
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| jlibosva | anteaya: I'm short on time :) Otherwise, yes | 09:28 |
| anteaya | jlibosva: understood and thank you | 09:28 |
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| anteaya | obondarev: do you want to take your turn now? | 09:28 |
| obondarev | moving on then | 09:28 |
| anteaya | great thanks | 09:28 |
| obondarev | anteaya: yep | 09:28 |
| obondarev | speaking of nova-net proxy | 09:28 |
| obondarev | I've put a couple on new revisions on gerrit | 09:29 |
| obondarev | # link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/150490/ | 09:29 |
| obondarev | got some general concerns for dansmith | 09:29 |
| anteaya | I think you need to remove the whitespace for #link to work | 09:29 |
| obondarev | anteaya: yep, sorry | 09:29 |
| anteaya | np, try again? | 09:30 |
| obondarev | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/150490/ | 09:30 |
| anteaya | thanks | 09:30 |
| obondarev | so I'd really like to sort them before moving forward | 09:30 |
| obondarev | I mean Dan's comments | 09:30 |
| anteaya | let's take a look at the latest patchset shall we? | 09:30 |
| obondarev | so I replied to comments and waiting for dansmith to review | 09:30 |
| anteaya | obondarev: I feel the same | 09:30 |
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| anteaya | let's see if we can discuss the comments | 09:31 |
| anteaya | and understand them a bit better | 09:31 |
| obondarev | sure | 09:31 |
| anteaya | to the patch! | 09:31 |
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| obondarev | so I guess the main concern is what is nova-network proxy and whether we need it at all | 09:32 |
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| anteaya | well if that is what the concerns boil down to | 09:33 |
| anteaya | that is a concern that needs to be addressed | 09:33 |
| anteaya | any input from others | 09:33 |
| anteaya | do you feel obondarev's assessment of the comments is accurate? | 09:33 |
| gus | right, I don't think Dan understands the need for a step between "store state in neutron DB" and "all compute nodes have migrated" | 09:34 |
| gus | .. so we should perhaps explain that in the review. | 09:34 |
| anteaya | that might be a good beginning | 09:35 |
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| obondarev | or move the discussion to the spec maybe? | 09:35 |
| anteaya | let's keep the discussion in the proxy patch for now | 09:35 |
| anteaya | it helps retain the history of the conversation | 09:35 |
| anteaya | the spec can have a comment that references the proxy patch | 09:35 |
| gus | yeah, replying on the review keeps the response easily correlated. | 09:36 |
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| obondarev | ok | 09:36 |
| anteaya | actually the spec should have a comment that references both the proxy patch and the db migration patch | 09:36 |
| gus | obondarev: Do you want me to respond to Dan, or shall we see what he comes back with after you existing response? | 09:36 |
| anteaya | I would like to see some movement here | 09:36 |
| anteaya | other than just wait | 09:36 |
| obondarev | gus: let's wait I think | 09:36 |
| gus | ;) | 09:36 |
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| anteaya | we have a status update at the cross project meeting today | 09:37 |
| anteaya | many folks will be reading these patches for the first time as a result | 09:37 |
| anteaya | let's have the latest information up for them please? | 09:37 |
| anteaya | so if we think there is a hole in an explaination | 09:37 |
| anteaya | can we fill it? | 09:37 |
| belmoreira | but the proxy is a mandatory step in the migration? If a deployment just migrate the DB and is fine with a small downtime my understanding is that it can avoid the proxy. | 09:37 |
| anteaya | otherwise I will just need to keep explaining it | 09:38 |
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| obondarev | anteaya: well the rationale is in the spec | 09:38 |
| gus | anteaya: ack. I'll add a short comment on the change so we're sure that aspect isn't left hanging. | 09:38 |
| gus | belmoreira: yes, exactly. | 09:38 |
| anteaya | obondarev: true, but folks can trip over any percieved gap | 09:39 |
| anteaya | gus: thank you | 09:39 |
| obondarev | anteaya: undestood | 09:39 |
| anteaya | obondarev: thanks :) | 09:39 |
| anteaya | any more comments here? | 09:40 |
| anteaya | let's move on | 09:40 |
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| anteaya | #topic documentation (obondarev) | 09:40 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "documentation (obondarev) (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)" | 09:40 | |
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| anteaya | obondarev: :) | 09:41 |
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| obondarev | yep | 09:41 |
| obondarev | no updates from me on this one I'm afraid | 09:41 |
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| anteaya | okay | 09:41 |
| anteaya | we need to make some contact with documentation folks | 09:41 |
| anteaya | edgar said he would do the work, but he can't attend the meetings | 09:41 |
| anteaya | which is tough as we lose that communication | 09:42 |
| anteaya | I'll keep working on finding someone who can attend meetings who can work with edgar on documentation | 09:42 |
| obondarev | last update from him was that he can start work on docs based on the specs | 09:42 |
| anteaya | okay that is great | 09:43 |
| anteaya | do we know where to look yet to track his progress? | 09:43 |
| obondarev | he said he'll send the link once he has patch | 09:43 |
| anteaya | edgar if you are reading the logs, can you tell me where to look to see what you are doing? | 09:43 |
| anteaya | okay great, I'm looking forward to that | 09:43 |
| anteaya | we are working towards having something up for the operators mid-cycle | 09:44 |
| anteaya | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Operations/Meetups | 09:44 |
| anteaya | it takes place in the second week of march | 09:44 |
| anteaya | which doesn't leave much time | 09:44 |
| anteaya | okay so let's move on? | 09:44 |
| anteaya | since we can't do much more without someone from docs to help us here | 09:45 |
| anteaya | #topic testing (belmoreira) | 09:45 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "testing (belmoreira) (Meeting topic: nova-net-to-neutron-migration)" | 09:45 | |
| anteaya | belmoreira: how far away are we from having something to test? | 09:45 |
| belmoreira | I don't have any update. | 09:45 |
| anteaya | belmoreira: you said you think we can test the db migration in isolation of the proxy code? | 09:45 |
| anteaya | belmoreira: fair enough | 09:45 |
| belmoreira | we should wait for the proxy and db migration developments | 09:46 |
| anteaya | but if we can test the db migration code in isolation | 09:46 |
| anteaya | can we consider that as somethign testable? | 09:46 |
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| jlibosva | I haven't tried to run Neutron after db migration, just observed the db. But I believe networks, subnets, ports and security groups should be migrated successfully | 09:47 |
| anteaya | can we consider that as something to try? | 09:48 |
| belmoreira | we will test the DB migration tool against our DB. However before we need to perform changes in order to work with our setup. So I will wait for a more stable version | 09:48 |
| jlibosva | not with current patchset as I sent what I had without trying to run it | 09:48 |
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| anteaya | okay great | 09:50 |
| anteaya | so what do we need for it to be considered more stable? | 09:50 |
| jlibosva | I'll run the script and once it passes my "small environemnt" migration, I'll send new PS | 09:50 |
| belmoreira | anteaya: I mean with more review iterations | 09:51 |
| anteaya | belmoreira: if it passes jlibosva's small environment, will you consider it sufficient to test? | 09:51 |
| anteaya | belmoreira: I'm trying to find out what you need to see, so I can help you get it | 09:51 |
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| belmoreira | anteaya: I know. Because we need to work on top of it that's why I'm waiting for more iterations. Fair? | 09:53 |
| anteaya | well if I knew what you were looking for from more iterations taht would help | 09:53 |
| anteaya | since number of patchsets doesn't really convey stability to me | 09:54 |
| anteaya | I understand you want something better, I just don't know what better looks like to your eyes | 09:54 |
| anteaya | so let's see if we can get jlibosva's patchset into a shape that belmoreira feels comfortable testing | 09:55 |
| anteaya | is that a reasonable goal? | 09:55 |
| anteaya | jlibosva: can you work with belmoreira to make that happen? | 09:55 |
| jlibosva | I still don't understand, when to say "now it's in the shape for testing" | 09:56 |
| belmoreira | anteaya: I will look into the last patchset | 09:56 |
| gus | belmoreira: fwiw, the tool only needs read-only access to your current tables (or could work off a snapshot) | 09:56 |
| anteaya | belmoreira: thank you, that would be a big help | 09:56 |
| anteaya | jlibosva: me either | 09:56 |
| jlibosva | belmoreira: you can also do db dump, restore db somewhere in testing environment and test db migration | 09:56 |
| anteaya | belmoreira: or is there more work for you to test this than we currently understand? | 09:57 |
| gus | but it seems premature to test it out on a large dataset before jlibosva has declared it "plausible" | 09:57 |
| anteaya | gus: yes to be sure | 09:57 |
| jlibosva | I can confirm now that current PS crashes | 09:57 |
| belmoreira | my point is that the test is very interesting for us... for this exercise maybe less because our DB maybe will not fit in what is expected by the script... | 09:58 |
| anteaya | jlibosva: so a non-crashing patchset, that is a worthy metric | 09:58 |
| anteaya | ah so you don't want to test this, belmoreira? | 09:58 |
| belmoreira | or in a standard nova-network configuration | 09:58 |
| anteaya | then I made a poor assumption | 09:58 |
| anteaya | spandhe: do you have any ability to help us test the db migration patchset? | 09:58 |
| gus | belmoreira: ah I see, so you're expecting to use some customised version of this migration tool? | 09:59 |
| anteaya | so time to wrap up | 09:59 |
| spandhe | anteaya: I think I can.. | 09:59 |
| anteaya | spandhe: oh that would be great | 09:59 |
| anteaya | spandhe: can you work with jlibosva this week? | 09:59 |
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| anteaya | see what you can accomplish? | 09:59 |
| jlibosva | that would be good | 10:00 |
| anteaya | and we need to wrap up | 10:00 |
| spandhe | sure.. jlibosva.. shall we talk again later? what timezone ar u in? | 10:00 |
| belmoreira | anteaya: I really want to test it... and work on top of it... I can give feedback however our DB as some particularities that will not fit the generic test that is expected. | 10:00 |
| anteaya | another great meeting folks, thank you | 10:00 |
| obondarev | thanks, bye everyone | 10:00 |
| jlibosva | thanks, bye | 10:00 |
| gus | belmoreira: ack, understood. | 10:00 |
| anteaya | belmoreira: I made assumptions I shouldn't have, sorry about that | 10:00 |
| gus | thanks all. | 10:00 |
| belmoreira | thanks | 10:00 |
| anteaya | and show up to the cross-project meeting today if you can | 10:00 |
| anteaya | I'll be giving a status update and welcome your input | 10:01 |
| anteaya | thanks for your hard work everyone | 10:01 |
| anteaya | #endmeeting | 10:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 10:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Feb 10 10:01:19 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 10:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_net_to_neutron_migration/2015/nova_net_to_neutron_migration.2015-02-10-09.00.html | 10:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_net_to_neutron_migration/2015/nova_net_to_neutron_migration.2015-02-10-09.00.txt | 10:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_net_to_neutron_migration/2015/nova_net_to_neutron_migration.2015-02-10-09.00.log.html | 10:01 |
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| armax | hi | 13:59 |
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| rkukura | hi | 13:59 |
| ihrachyshka | \o | 13:59 |
| marios | o/ | 13:59 |
| markmcclain | o/ | 13:59 |
| emagana | Hello! (barely awake) | 13:59 |
| anteaya | emagana: oh good, you're here | 13:59 |
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| armax | marun: ping | 14:00 |
| armax | ok, let’s start | 14:00 |
| watanabe_isao | Hello!(first join) | 14:00 |
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| armax | #startmeeting networking | 14:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Feb 10 14:00:20 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is armax. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'networking' | 14:00 |
| armax | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/Meetings Agenda | 14:00 |
| emagana | anteaya: I just woke up.. maybe not very productive | 14:00 |
| marun | armax: pong | 14:00 |
| anteaya | emagana: you're singing my song | 14:00 |
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| armax | as usual…a reminder of the important dates | 14:00 |
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| armax | (which are fast approaching) | 14:01 |
| armax | Feature Proposal Freeze: March 5 | 14:01 |
| armax | Feature, String, and Dependency Freeze: March 19 | 14:01 |
| armax | RCs: April 9-23 | 14:01 |
| armax | Kilo release: April 30 | 14:01 |
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| salv-orlando | aloha? | 14:02 |
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| armax | salv-orlando: aloha! | 14:02 |
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| armax | please make sure that if you have a feature that needs to hit the Kilo deadline, the code is posted by the feature proposal freeze deadline | 14:02 |
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| armax | the current K3 backlog is https://launchpad.net/neutron/+milestone/kilo-3 | 14:03 |
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| armax | #announcement: by the way K2 is out: https://launchpad.net/neutron/+milestone/kilo-2 | 14:03 |
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| armax | #undo | 14:03 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Link object at 0x995ea50> | 14:03 |
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| armax | #topic Announcements by the way K2 is out: https://launchpad.net/neutron/+milestone/kilo-2 | 14:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements by the way K2 is out: https://launchpad.net/neutron/+milestone/kilo-2 (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:04 | |
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| salv-orlando | that's a nice topic | 14:04 |
| ajo | :-) | 14:04 |
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| armax | salv-orlando: that’s custom made, just for you! | 14:05 |
| armax | ok, let’s move on... | 14:05 |
| armax | #topic Bugs | 14:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:05 | |
| armax | enikanorov: you’re up | 14:05 |
| salv-orlando | anyway, if you want this in minutes you can use the info hashtag | 14:05 |
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| armax | enikanorov_: ping | 14:06 |
| enikanorov_ | armax: not much to update this week | 14:06 |
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| salv-orlando | enikanorov: do you have a status about how gate jobs are doing? | 14:07 |
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| ajo | I need to look back at this bug: | 14:07 |
| ajo | https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1410982 | 14:07 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1410982 in neutron "test_slaac_from_os frequent failures" [High,Confirmed] - Assigned to Miguel Angel Ajo (mangelajo) | 14:07 |
| enikanorov_ | salv-orlando: based on my observations, there were no major neutron-related failures | 14:07 |
| armax | ajo: great | 14:08 |
| ajo | At some point in time, one of my patches raised the failure rate a lot, | 14:08 |
| armax | ajo: is there anything we can help you with? | 14:08 |
| ajo | but, then it went back to it's usual state (it had been there for a long time) | 14:08 |
| salv-orlando | enikanorov_: without gate unreliability, neutron is not fun anymore. | 14:08 |
| ajo | armax, I will re-evaluate the situation to see how it's now | 14:08 |
| marun | salv-orlando: you have a funny definition of 'fun' :P | 14:08 |
| ajo | armax and I will keep you updated | 14:08 |
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| armax | ajo: ok ping me if you need help | 14:08 |
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| ajo | ack | 14:09 |
| enikanorov_ | salv-orlando: ha. so we;ve been having all those issues because you wanted to have fun? ;) | 14:09 |
| armax | ok, we cannot make fun of Neutron instability anymore, by the sounds of it | 14:09 |
| marun | armax: let's not be hasty... | 14:09 |
| armax | marun: :) | 14:09 |
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| armax | ok, does anyone have any other issue they would like to discuss/raise awareness here? | 14:10 |
| salv-orlando | enikanorov_: you're making it sound as if I introduced those bugs on purpose | 14:10 |
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| armax | if not we can switch to… | 14:10 |
| salv-orlando | one thing from me... | 14:10 |
| armax | … | 14:11 |
| armax | salv-orlando: shoot | 14:11 |
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| enikanorov_ | salv-orlando: ;) | 14:11 |
| salv-orlando | there has been a lot of discussion recently on MTU selection and impact on GRE communication | 14:11 |
| salv-orlando | do we want to spend some times on it now or open discussion? | 14:11 |
| armax | we can leave it to the open discussion, IMO | 14:11 |
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| ajo | +1 | 14:11 |
| salv-orlando | I just want to have a picture of the current status (I think I have it) and whether we'll manage to fix it for good for kilo | 14:11 |
| salv-orlando | open discussion it is thn | 14:12 |
| armax | salv-orlando: ok | 14:12 |
| armax | #topic Docs | 14:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Docs (Meeting topic: networking)" | 14:12 | |
| ajo | salv-orlando, it's an interesting topic to me :) | 14:12 |
| armax | emagana: you awake? | 14:12 |
| ajo | :) | 14:12 |
| emagana | armax: barely! | 14:12 |
| armax | emagana: shall we come back in a few hours? :) | 14:12 |
| ajo | thank you for all the USA people from joining at this early time ;) | 14:12 |
| ajo | from joining? for joining... | 14:13 |
| emagana | Ok! The Networking Docs team is moving the initial scenarios legacy for both LB and OVS out of github | 14:13 |
| emagana | They will be in gerrit anytime soon for your review! | 14:13 |
| armax | emagana: good stuff | 14:13 |
| emagana | We believe they are in good shape to start the normal gerrit process | 14:14 |
| armax | emagana: is there anyone we’d need to earmark for review? | 14:14 |
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| markmcclain | emagana: awesome | 14:14 |
| emagana | I was asked if someone could help on this bug: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/122024/ | 14:14 |
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| emagana | armax: everybody! but the gerrit commit is not there yet! | 14:15 |
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| emagana | It should happen this week, I will send a note to the mailing list | 14:15 |
| armax | emagana: not sure I see the relationship between docs and #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/122024/ | 14:15 |
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| armax | emagana: ok, great…when the link is out, please feel free to tag me as reviewer | 14:16 |
| armax | thanks | 14:16 |
| emagana | armax: One of the scenarios is blocked because of this bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1369721 | 14:16 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1369721 in neutron "manually moving dvr-snat router fails" [High,In progress] - Assigned to Mike Smith (michael-smith6) | 14:16 |
| armax | emagana: understood | 14:16 |
| armax | I think Mike is OOO | 14:16 |
| marun | emagana: btw, once this lands, doc changes won't be subject to tempest/rally/grenade jobs :) https://review.openstack.org/#/c/152298/ | 14:16 |
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| armax | marun: that is some great news! | 14:17 |
| emagana | marun: Thanks for sharin! | 14:17 |
| armax | we should probably make a big announcement when that happens | 14:17 |
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| armax | emagana: anything else? | 14:18 |
| emagana | sadly I haven't done personally much progress on the migration from nova-net scenario :-( | 14:18 |
| emagana | I know anteaya and obondarev and looking forward to reviewwing that part.. my apologies | 14:18 |
| armax | I guess that brings us to the next topic | 14:19 |
| emagana | reviewing* | 14:19 |
| anteaya | emagana: we can talk about that after the meeting | 14:19 |
| armax | #topic Open Discussion | 14:19 |
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| emagana | anteaya: sure! | 14:19 |
| armax | we have a few items on the agenda | 14:19 |
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| ajo | salv-orlando: GRE/mtu ? | 14:19 |
| armax | one of it is Nova-network to Neutron migration | 14:19 |
| anteaya | hello | 14:19 |
| armax | anteaya: ping | 14:19 |
| armax | ajo: in due course ;) | 14:20 |
| anteaya | we are making progress | 14:20 |
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| salv-orlando | basically it's been a lot of releases now that we're leaving to the deployer the onus of setting it up | 14:20 |
| anteaya | armax: thanks for merging the first part of the spec | 14:20 |
| salv-orlando | ajo: ^^ | 14:20 |
| armax | anteaya: np | 14:20 |
| anteaya | now we need to get that documented with emagana's help so that sdague has something to show operators at their meetup in the second week of march | 14:20 |
| armax | anteaya: I believe that the second half is still up for review | 14:21 |
| emagana | anteaya: I will be at the operators meetup as well! | 14:21 |
| anteaya | and we have jlibosva's patch which he is going to work with a operator to get to the testing stage | 14:21 |
| anteaya | armax: yes it is | 14:21 |
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| anteaya | emagana: awesome | 14:21 |
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| markmcclain | is there any reason to keep blocking teh 2nd half of the review? | 14:21 |
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| markmcclain | seems like we should be able to merge and then update as we progress | 14:21 |
| emagana | marun: I have the same question!! | 14:21 |
| anteaya | so the second part of the spec needs working code for some reviews to feel comfortable with the second part of the spec | 14:21 |
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| markmcclain | anteaya: I can see that, but it's not like we're carving stone | 14:22 |
| emagana | are we all talking about this one: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/142456? | 14:22 |
| anteaya | markmcclain: dansmith said at nova meetup he wanted to see code | 14:22 |
| armax | emagana: yes | 14:22 |
| anteaya | markmcclain: well I don't feel we are blocking the spec, it is being worked on | 14:22 |
| anteaya | markmcclain: do you feel it is blocked? | 14:22 |
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| markmcclain | anteaya: if as long as you don't feel like that is a blocker then I'm fine with the current direciton | 14:23 |
| anteaya | to continue there is some question on the proxy patch to clarify is is required | 14:23 |
| armax | markmcclain: it sounds to me that we can approve it or not…what counts is the code underpinning it | 14:23 |
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| markmcclain | armax: exactly | 14:23 |
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| anteaya | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:bp/migration-from-nova-net,n,z | 14:23 |
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| anteaya | well dansmith was fairly specific | 14:24 |
| anteaya | and since we could get to a place where he could agree | 14:24 |
| armax | markmcclain: so what action plan do you propose? | 14:24 |
| salv-orlando | it's not like we're required to sign it with out blood in order to approve it. I guess we can say that it's kind of ok for now | 14:24 |
| salv-orlando | *our blood | 14:24 |
| anteaya | I don't want him to feel his request is being dismissed | 14:24 |
| anteaya | as I told him I thought his request was reasonable | 14:24 |
| markmcclain | armax: if anteaya is happy then let's keep the direction | 14:25 |
| anteaya | what would happen with the spec approved now as opposed to our current workflow? | 14:25 |
| anteaya | is there a piece I am missing? | 14:25 |
| armax | I am happy if anteaya is happy | 14:25 |
| anteaya | we are making good progress by my measurement and not upsetting folks thus far | 14:25 |
| markmcclain | anteaya: no.. I was just making sure that the unapproved spec wasn't something hindering progress | 14:25 |
| anteaya | thanks | 14:25 |
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| anteaya | ah okay, I don't feel it is | 14:25 |
| anteaya | I expect some pushback after the ops meeting | 14:26 |
| anteaya | as I am guessing many haven't been paying attention | 14:26 |
| ajo_ | sorry, OSX blew up... ;/ | 14:26 |
| armax | ok, let’s keep reviewing the spec and make progress on the code, and we’ll reassess the situation in a week’s time | 14:26 |
| anteaya | thanks | 14:26 |
| anteaya | done | 14:26 |
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| armax | let’s move on the next topic on the open discussion | 14:26 |
| armax | quick update on Plugin Decomp | 14:26 |
| armax | a few folks are going through the motions | 14:27 |
| armax | I would like to remind you that, in order to get reviewer attention, it’s useful to have the review commit message mention the blueprint topic | 14:28 |
| ihrachyshka | on that note, I also want to note that we should make sure that old full python paths work for decomposed plugins | 14:28 |
| armax | the latest status is reported here #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/core-vendor-decomposition | 14:29 |
| ihrachyshka | f.e. see https://review.openstack.org/151893 that moves files to different places. | 14:29 |
| armax | if you don’t see your plugin/driver here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OQN0VlKzKC1gYlxgalQXKDTGGWogWFRtD3S5OpepsX4 | 14:29 |
| armax | ping me directly in channel | 14:29 |
| armax | ihrachyshka: thanks I’ll look into it | 14:29 |
| marun | /url 1 | 14:29 |
| armax | another ongoing effort is to document the ‘contribution’ steps for new or existing folks | 14:30 |
| armax | this is taking shape here: #link https://github.com/openstack/neutron/blob/master/doc/source/devref/contribute.rst | 14:30 |
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| armax | ok | 14:31 |
| armax | on the next open discussion item... | 14:31 |
| armax | Multiple template libraries being used in-tree | 14:31 |
| armax | who did put this on the agenda? | 14:31 |
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| markmcclain | didn't this come from the ML discussion from sc68cal? | 14:31 |
| armax | sc68cal: you there? | 14:31 |
| markmcclain | he had noticed that we were using both mako and jinja2 | 14:32 |
| markmcclain | but mako was a drive by from alembic… I think we had only been explicitly using jinja2 | 14:32 |
| armax | ok, it looks like sc68cal is not around.. | 14:32 |
| armax | markmcclain: what do you suggest? | 14:32 |
| markmcclain | that's status quo…we should keep | 14:32 |
| ihrachyshka | +1 | 14:33 |
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| marun | the review that triggered his concern won't need a templating language at all, so the issue should be moot | 14:34 |
| marun | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/128259/ | 14:34 |
| armax | so is the resolution to drop mako? | 14:34 |
| marun | jschwarz was intending to use templates to drive configuration in testing. I've convinced him to generate the files without templates instead | 14:35 |
| marun | alembic will still require mako | 14:35 |
| marun | but we won't be adding an explicit dependency of our own - we'll continue to use jinja2 | 14:35 |
| ajo_ | +1 | 14:35 |
| armax | marun: that’s my understanding | 14:35 |
| ajo_ | that's my understanding too | 14:36 |
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| salv-orlando | I don't think anybody is troubled by this | 14:36 |
| HenryG | I agree, it's a non-issue | 14:36 |
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| armax | yup | 14:36 |
| ajo | correct | 14:36 |
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| armax | it sounds like we should just say on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/128259 that Mako should not be in the requirements? | 14:37 |
| marun | armax: I've already -1'd on the issue of using templates at all | 14:37 |
| armax | marun: cool | 14:37 |
| armax | one last reported item on the open discussion agenda is ‘Neutron as the default in Devstack' | 14:37 |
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| marun | otherwiseguy: around? :) | 14:38 |
| armax | it looks like that we did switch for a bit, only to back out because of a config problem | 14:38 |
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| salv-orlando | the change was reverted because it seems like people need to add a few config params explicitly to localrc | 14:38 |
| armax | anyone has suggestions on how to get to resolution? | 14:38 |
| marun | otherwiseguy found a solution to the 'vms can see the world' problem that folks were reporting | 14:38 |
| salv-orlando | the desire apparently is to make it work out of the box, and therefore to me this means providing reasonable defaults for every parameter | 14:39 |
| armax | otherwiseguy: do I hear that you’re voluteering? | 14:39 |
| marun | I think that's the biggest problem preventing from 'just working' | 14:39 |
| armax | :) | 14:39 |
| ajo | ah, so people used to nova expected VMs to go "to the world" | 14:39 |
| marun | armax: he's pretty busy with the ovsdb work, so if anyone else can pick it up that would be helpful | 14:39 |
| ajo | instead of just to the local virtual network with the devstack vm? | 14:39 |
| marun | ajo: Apparently so | 14:39 |
| ajo | ah, ok | 14:39 |
| armax | marun: let’s hear it from otherwiseguy :P | 14:39 |
| marun | armax: basically though, the solution is to double nat | 14:40 |
| markmcclain | we should be able to bridge the router's ext net to the the upstream interface like nova-net does right? | 14:40 |
| ajo | I guess we need to plug the main interface to br-ex | 14:40 |
| markmcclain | marun: why double nat? | 14:40 |
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| marun | markmcclain: you'd have to ask otherwiseguy. If you can think of an easier way, great. | 14:41 |
| armax | it sounds like a solution is within reach, we’d need to find someone championing this change | 14:41 |
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| marun | armax: wait... | 14:41 |
| marun | there was an etherpad... | 14:41 |
| marun | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/devstack-neutron-default | 14:42 |
| marun | it wasn't just | 14:42 |
| marun | vm's can see the world | 14:42 |
| marun | sdague and co put together this etherpad of requirements that they wanted to see met for having neutron become the default | 14:43 |
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| marun | based on their experience of trying it out briefly last week | 14:43 |
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| armax | marun: great | 14:43 |
| armax | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/devstack-neutron-default | 14:43 |
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| markmcclain | ok.. those are all reasonable | 14:43 |
| markmcclain | do we have a bug for this in neutron or devstack? | 14:43 |
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| marun | markmcclain: I'm not sure, mestery would know | 14:44 |
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| marun | or sdague | 14:44 |
| markmcclain | ok.. I'll follow up with him | 14:44 |
| markmcclain | or both | 14:44 |
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| otherwiseguy | marun: just woke up | 14:44 |
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| armax | #action markmcclain to follow up with mestery in relation to Neutron as default in Devstack | 14:44 |
| armax | I don’t believe there’s a bug no | 14:45 |
| marun | otherwiseguy: maybe you can talk with markmcclain about why double nat is a good way to allow VM's to see the world? | 14:45 |
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| marun | otherwiseguy: he seemed to have questions | 14:45 |
| markmcclain | we can work on this outside the meeting… since there's only 3 of us talking | 14:45 |
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| otherwiseguy | ok | 14:46 |
| ajo | i'm reading | 14:46 |
| ajo | :D | 14:46 |
| armax | ok, let’s move on | 14:46 |
| armax | salv-orlando, ajo: MTU | 14:46 |
| markmcclain | ajo: we'll chat in -neutron so you can keep following :) | 14:46 |
| ajo | true | 14:46 |
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| salv-orlando | I don't want to bother people to much | 14:46 |
| ajo | markmcclain: ack | 14:46 |
| ajo | salv-orlando: what's the issue with GRE and mtu selection? | 14:46 |
| ajo | salv-orlando: does it break some thing?, I'm still missing some context, I guess | 14:47 |
| salv-orlando | At this stage my only question is about 1) the status of mut-selection-and-adverstiment 2) whether people that know about its progress whether they can say if it's going to solve issues observed by sers | 14:47 |
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| salv-orlando | ajo: I am referring to recent posts on the mailing list, where users have reported fragmentation occurring at different layers, and bandwidth on gre networks dropping to 23kb/s with 10GB links | 14:48 |
| ajo | salv-orlando: 1) I saw initial model implementation, if that was the question: https://review.openstack.org/153733 | 14:48 |
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| armax | salv-orlando: the model change merged here https://review.openstack.org/#/c/153451/ | 14:48 |
| ajo | salv-orlando, I've myself experienced that, due to inability to control MTU internally (neutron) or externally (the IP network I was using) | 14:48 |
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| ajo | ah, the other link were just settings, right, thanks armax | 14:49 |
| ajo | salv-orlando, what's the topic on the mail list? | 14:49 |
| salv-orlando | cool, so basically the approach we'll go for is that it will be up to the user to choose the right one. It might be reasonable, not 100% if that's what users are expecting, but I'm not the one who can judge it | 14:50 |
| ajo | ahh, "higher MTU for all interfaces" ? | 14:50 |
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| ajo | yes, sometimes you don't have control over your L2 infrastructure to allow higher mtu, | 14:50 |
| ajo | or... it's not capable over all the L3 hops | 14:50 |
| salv-orlando | ajo: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack/2015-January/011207.html | 14:50 |
| armax | salv-orlando: frankly I don’t believe that at this point can really do anything smarter than that | 14:50 |
| ajo | so, in that case is only possible to internally use a lower mt | 14:51 |
| ajo | mt->mtu | 14:51 |
| salv-orlando | armax: that's good for me. I thought people smarter than me might have smarter ideas | 14:51 |
| armax | but I would be eager to see the rest of the impleemtnation from ijw’s spec | 14:51 |
| armax | *implementation | 14:51 |
| HenryG | I can ask the folks working on the implementation to give a progress report | 14:51 |
| ajo | salv-orlando, thanks for the link, I was looking at a different thread | 14:51 |
| ihrachyshka | hm. in that spec, weren't we going to encode max-mtu for tunnels in physnet definition? I think that's smart enough to solve perf drop, isn't it? | 14:52 |
| armax | HenryG: that would be super-duper | 14:52 |
| ajo | salv-orlando, I actually helped eren debug that problem on the neutron channel | 14:52 |
| ajo | but, I couldn't replicate it in my environment, | 14:52 |
| ajo | it seems related to his kernel version or something.. | 14:52 |
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| ajo | my LB's didn't defragment packets.. | 14:53 |
| armax | ok, time check... | 14:53 |
| armax | 8 minutes to the end of the meeting | 14:53 |
| armax | #action HenryG to follow up to see the progress of the MTU spec | 14:53 |
| armax | and then we can take the disucssion on the review(s) | 14:53 |
| armax | anything else? | 14:53 |
| ajo | Thanks HenryG | 14:53 |
| armax | on this topic? | 14:53 |
| armax | looks like we’re good | 14:54 |
| anteaya | I would like to mention since we are in open discussion, that alaski is looking for a neutron point person to co-ordinate communication with nova cells, as currently neutron doesn't know about it | 14:54 |
| armax | I’d like to bring a topic to attention | 14:54 |
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| armax | anteaya: excellent point | 14:54 |
| ajo | yes, good point | 14:54 |
| armax | anyone willing to help? Don’t rush all at once | 14:54 |
| anteaya | thanks, so the hunt for a volunteer is ongoing | 14:54 |
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| armax | anteaya: where is alaski based? I mean what timezone? | 14:55 |
| anteaya | armax: not exactly sure, I'm guessing pst | 14:55 |
| alaski | I'm EST | 14:55 |
| anteaya | alaski: the man himself, thank you | 14:55 |
| armax | alaski: ok great, welcome | 14:55 |
| alaski | thanks | 14:56 |
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| armax | alaski: let’s talk briefly in the neutron channel | 14:56 |
| armax | I’ll ping you after the meeting | 14:56 |
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| armax | dougwig: ping | 14:56 |
| alaski | armax: sounds good | 14:56 |
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| armax | it sounds like all the adv-svc projects depend on a copy of netron that comes out of git | 14:57 |
| armax | like: https://github.com/openstack/neutron-fwaas/blob/master/requirements.txt#L18 | 14:57 |
| armax | not only these projects like fw, vpn and lb | 14:57 |
| markmcclain | right this is know problem | 14:57 |
| armax | but also stackforge projects that are taking shape | 14:57 |
| armax | markmcclain: correct, | 14:57 |
| ihrachyshka | do you want to publish releases on pypi? | 14:57 |
| armax | I wonder if we have a resolution | 14:57 |
| armax | ihrachyshka: we could, only if we can tag arbitrarely | 14:58 |
| markmcclain | ihrachyshka: none of hte other server projects are pushed to pypi | 14:58 |
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| armax | markmcclain: ya | 14:58 |
| ihrachyshka | that would also slow down changes since we would have delay between time when neutron is patched and the code reaches aas repos | 14:58 |
| armax | that’s what I noticed | 14:58 |
| markmcclain | armax: we can tag, but releasing creates a lot of problems | 14:58 |
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| marun | it solves some, too | 14:58 |
| armax | markmcclain: if we could tag, that would be a good enough stop-gap | 14:59 |
| ihrachyshka | can we depend on tag in reqs.txt? | 14:59 |
| armax | but I would like to understand what is the crux of the matter | 14:59 |
| otherwiseguy | also I think neutron gate tempest tests can fail if *aas breaks. | 14:59 |
| markmcclain | armax, ihrachyshka: testing in the gate will be a mess | 14:59 |
| marun | otherwiseguy: we'll need to fix that for sure | 14:59 |
| armax | but perhaps we can discuss this in-channel and bring it to attention on the next weekly meeting | 14:59 |
| ihrachyshka | otherwiseguy, how so? we don't gate on them | 14:59 |
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| marun | we can't afford to co-gate, it's a failed strategy | 14:59 |
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| armax | we have only one minute spare | 14:59 |
| markmcclain | in Vancouver we need to discuss extracting out the library bits they need | 14:59 |
| armax | markmcclain: yes | 15:00 |
| armax | ok, folks | 15:00 |
| anteaya | can we include infra in this discussion | 15:00 |
| armax | #endmeeting | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Feb 10 15:00:11 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:00 |
| armax | thanks everyone! | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2015/networking.2015-02-10-14.00.html | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2015/networking.2015-02-10-14.00.txt | 15:00 |
| otherwiseguy | ihrachyshka: I tried changing the API by removing root_helper, they broke, my patch wouldn't pass the gate | 15:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking/2015/networking.2015-02-10-14.00.log.html | 15:00 |
| ajo | Thank you armax ;) | 15:00 |
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| marun | ciao | 15:00 |
| n0ano | #startmeeting gantt | 15:00 |
| markmcclain | armax: thanks | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Feb 10 15:00:40 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:00 | |
| ihrachyshka | otherwiseguy, hm, ok | 15:00 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'gantt' | 15:00 |
| n0ano | Anyone here to talk about the scheduler? | 15:00 |
| edleafe | o/ | 15:00 |
| * jaypipes around... barely. | 15:00 | |
| lxsli | o/ | 15:01 |
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| PaulMurray | hi | 15:01 |
| n0ano | let's get started then ( bauzas should join soon ) | 15:02 |
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| n0ano | #topic Remove direct nova DB/API access by Scheduler Filters - https://review.opernstack.org/138444/ | 15:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Remove direct nova DB/API access by Scheduler Filters - https://review.opernstack.org/138444/ (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:02 | |
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| n0ano | edleafe, I see ndipanov has some issues with your spec (sigh), were you able to work it out? | 15:02 |
| edleafe | OK, so after last week's meeting I pushed to get eyes on the spec after integrating all of the spec cores' suggestions. | 15:02 |
| bauzas | \o | 15:02 |
| * bauzas waves late | 15:02 | |
| edleafe | I got all +1s from the Gantt team members, but then Nikola brought up some strong objections (he wasn't at the midcycle). | 15:02 |
| edleafe | Dan Smith then objected, suggesting that we change the approach to the one that jaypipes rejected earlier, namely sending just the changes. | 15:03 |
| edleafe | After speaking with Dan, jaypipes then changed his mind, too, and since he was the driving force behind this approach, we were back at the starting line. | 15:03 |
| edleafe | There was no chance adding differential notification to the spec and getting all of that approved and coded in time for Kilo. | 15:03 |
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| edleafe | So the only chance for anything in Kilo was to greatly simplify the approach, so I re-wrote the specs so that the only change is additional instance info is returned with the host info. | 15:03 |
| edleafe | No feedback whatsoever in the past 4 days, though. | 15:03 |
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| ndipanov | edleafe, yeah sorry about no feedback bit | 15:03 |
| alex_xu_ | o/ | 15:03 |
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| ndipanov | was completely swamped | 15:03 |
| edleafe | So I'm pretty sure that there is very little chance of this making it through | 15:04 |
| bauzas | edleafe: I think you're right | 15:04 |
| edleafe | Someone convince me otherwise, please! :) | 15:04 |
| bauzas | edleafe: I mean, about the deliverables | 15:04 |
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| lxsli | Pardon my naivete - is a FFE implausible? | 15:04 |
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| n0ano | edleafe, it's still open to exception approval (note johnthetubaguy mail), the question is creating the code patches | 15:04 |
| lxsli | Do you mean it's very unlikely even with a FFE? | 15:04 |
| bauzas | lxsli: the spec is not merged yet | 15:04 |
| edleafe | lxsli: we don't even have an approved spec | 15:05 |
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| bauzas | lxsli: so we're even not talking about patches | 15:05 |
| edleafe | and the one that was close to approved has been rejected | 15:05 |
| edleafe | So we're starting over now | 15:05 |
| bauzas | edleafe: my spec has been approved, so I can go thru it | 15:05 |
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| n0ano | edleafe, but you simplified the approach, that should help - yes? | 15:05 |
| edleafe | bauzas: but yours doesn't cover this stuff | 15:05 |
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| bauzas | edleafe: in the meantime, maybe some people will jump in and discuss about the change in game | 15:05 |
| edleafe | n0ano: that was my hope | 15:06 |
| bauzas | edleafe: yeah, but it will just shed the light on | 15:06 |
| edleafe | but time keeps ticking... | 15:06 |
| bauzas | edleafe: I seriously doubt that your spec could be approved | 15:06 |
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| bauzas | edleafe: so keep it for L | 15:06 |
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| n0ano | I'd prefer to keep pushing while realizing it is very risky, we have to get some cores to review your patch | 15:07 |
| edleafe | bauzas: and with your changes, the spec I wrote would need further change | 15:07 |
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| edleafe | (I based it on existing code) | 15:07 |
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| bauzas | edleafe: hency my thoughts : you made great work but you need to consider it for L | 15:07 |
| bauzas | edleafe: which is not that far away, btw. | 15:08 |
| edleafe | bauzas: no, only 8 months | 15:08 |
| edleafe | :) | 15:08 |
| bauzas | edleafe: the branching should happen in 1 month or so | 15:08 |
| bauzas | edleafe: I mean, Lxxx open for merging | 15:08 |
| edleafe | bauzas: I know the timeline | 15:08 |
| alex_xu_ | edleafe: anything we can help? | 15:09 |
| n0ano | bauzas, but spec approval won't even start until after Vancouver | 15:09 |
| edleafe | bauzas: but it means that a separate scheduler now looks like an M thing at the earliest | 15:09 |
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| bauzas | edleafe: I'm not seeing this as sequential | 15:09 |
| edleafe | alex_xu_: no, not really. Unless you have a time machine | 15:09 |
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| n0ano | edleafe, I hope that's not the case, if we can get you approved early in L we will still have time for the split | 15:10 |
| alex_xu_ | emm....that's said | 15:10 |
| bauzas | n0ano: +1 | 15:10 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: that's my thoughts | 15:10 |
| bauzas | n0ano: we can work on splitting things while edleafe is working on his spec | 15:10 |
| n0ano | we know there's going to be lots of work for the split, this will just be another part of it | 15:10 |
| alex_xu_ | edleafe: at least we can try to get the spec in this release, then we can save some spec review time in L | 15:11 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: smart sentence | 15:11 |
| edleafe | bauzas: the split can happen without this | 15:11 |
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| edleafe | bauzas: this was just an intermediate step | 15:11 |
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| edleafe | we can separate the data without having to first go through this | 15:11 |
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| bauzas | edleafe: agreed, so what's the purpose of you saying 'it won't happen for L?3 | 15:12 |
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| bauzas | :) | 15:12 |
| n0ano | edleafe, we should keep pushing for approval on your spec to increase the odds that it'll be the first spec approved for L | 15:12 |
| bauzas | n0ano: you're just picking my words | 15:12 |
| edleafe | bauzas: my point is that if we insist on this spec first, it will push everything off | 15:12 |
| n0ano | bauzas, clarifying, that's all :-) | 15:13 |
| bauzas | edleafe: but you said that you would have to rewrite your spec based on my work, right ? | 15:13 |
| * alex_xu_ hopes have a car like in the movie 'back to the future' | 15:13 | |
| bauzas | edleafe: so why not considering that my work is just a dependency on your stuff ? | 15:13 |
| edleafe | I say we need to just focus on cleaning the interfaces for data, instead of trying to force them into these intermediate half-changes | 15:13 |
| bauzas | edleafe: right, so I think that your spec needs to be a final one, and not something that you're planning to land for Kilo | 15:14 |
| bauzas | that's just your words - intermediate | 15:14 |
| edleafe | bauzas: then I don't understand why it was ever supposed to be a separate spec | 15:14 |
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| edleafe | bauzas: if it just dependent on your changes | 15:15 |
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| bauzas | edleafe: sounds like there is a confusion there | 15:15 |
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| edleafe | bauzas: intermediate in the sense that this isn't how we want a separate scheduler to work in the long run | 15:15 |
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| edleafe | we want it to own the data, not just ask for it from nova in different ways | 15:16 |
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| bauzas | edleafe: I was just referring to | 15:16 |
| bauzas | (16:03:35) edleafe: So the only chance for anything in Kilo was to greatly simplify the approach, so I re-wrote the specs so that the only change is additional instance info is returned with the host info. | 15:16 |
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| bauzas | edleafe: forget Kilo and provide the right approach for L | 15:16 |
| edleafe | bauzas: that was last week when I re-wrote the spec | 15:17 |
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| edleafe | the fact that nobody has given feedback since then is what made me think that it cannot make it into K | 15:17 |
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| n0ano | edleafe, well, personally, I was waiting for ndipanov to comment, he had the original objection and should have responded to your change | 15:18 |
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| bauzas | edleafe: agreed, so that's why we still need to help you by reviewing your approach so we keep momentum on your spec | 15:18 |
| edleafe | n0ano: Understood, but it's not like the cores don't have a zillion other things to focus on | 15:18 |
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| n0ano | edleafe, don't get me started I don't accept that as an excuse, we all have many things to do | 15:19 |
| bauzas | anyway, I think we have a consensus : we need to review your spec and comment it, whatever the outcome will be | 15:19 |
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| n0ano | bauzas, +1 | 15:20 |
| alex_xu_ | bauzas: +1 | 15:20 |
| edleafe | n0ano: not an excuse; just reality | 15:20 |
| n0ano | #action all to review the spec `today` | 15:20 |
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| * n0ano wonders why his actions never take | 15:20 | |
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| bauzas | edleafe: and as I said to you, your spec deserves some time before reviewing, because that one is quite tricky | 15:20 |
| edleafe | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/138444/ | 15:20 |
| lxsli | it'd be great if ndipanov, bauzas + edleafe could agree the bones of the ideal solution right now rather than volleying review comments | 15:20 |
| ndipanov | sure | 15:21 |
| ndipanov | my point is basically this | 15:21 |
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| edleafe | n0ano: actions take; the bot just doesn't echo them here | 15:21 |
| ndipanov | we should not disable hitting the db as such | 15:21 |
| edleafe | n0ano: check the minutes afterwards | 15:21 |
| ndipanov | we should make it go through a well defined scheduler (gantt) interface | 15:21 |
| ndipanov | that we need to define for this | 15:22 |
| ndipanov | as this is a common usecase for people | 15:22 |
| ndipanov | and I feel it is orthogonal to any performance improvements like caching | 15:22 |
| edleafe | ndipanov: yes, this is not about performance per se | 15:22 |
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| lxsli | That does sound like it could be a smaller, more incremental change | 15:22 |
| ndipanov | but having said that I did not read dansmith 's follow up comments on my comment | 15:23 |
| ndipanov | so I'd be happy with just solidifying that interface | 15:23 |
| ndipanov | and also I am not sure it should be about instances as such | 15:23 |
| edleafe | ndipanov: dansmith wanted to send diffs of the instance list instead of the full list | 15:23 |
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| ndipanov | but I could be flexible on this maybe | 15:23 |
| edleafe | ndipanov: sending the full list was something jaypipes had pushed for | 15:23 |
| dansmith | edleafe: no, I wanted to send just the instance on which the action is being taken | 15:23 |
| ndipanov | edleafe, to me this is also an optimization | 15:23 |
| edleafe | dansmith: well, isn't that the same thing? | 15:24 |
| dansmith | edleafe: no? | 15:24 |
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| edleafe | dansmith: ok, a node has instances. Something changes on one. We send that change. | 15:24 |
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| dansmith | correct | 15:25 |
| edleafe | dansmith: to the scheduler, that's a diff: take the instance that changed, and update your local view of it | 15:25 |
| dansmith | and then send a list of just uuids periodically, which allows the scheduler to patch up in the case of a missed one | 15:25 |
| dansmith | edleafe: diffs of the list imply potentially multiple instances updated in a single go to me | 15:25 |
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| edleafe | dansmith: sure, but that's a separate concern | 15:26 |
| dansmith | edleafe: what we should be doing is saying "this instance changed" not "here's a patch against your cache" | 15:26 |
| bauzas | I think we validated a 2-step approach | 15:26 |
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| edleafe | dansmith: sure, definitely not a patch | 15:26 |
| bauzas | 1. update the list of instances per host when the Scheduler is starting | 15:26 |
| bauzas | 2. provide updates to the scheduler when a state changes | 15:26 |
| ndipanov | dansmith, I think we are talking about 2 different things here | 15:26 |
| edleafe | dansmith: we used the term 'diff' in earlier discussions; contrasted with sending the whole list | 15:26 |
| bauzas | 2. can be a full list of instances per host or only a diff, but that's still 2. | 15:27 |
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| bauzas | the difference is only optimization | 15:27 |
| ndipanov | what you guys are saying is that we should make update instances from the host and then debate on how to do this in a reasonable manner | 15:27 |
| bauzas | edleafe: that's why I dislike your new PS | 15:27 |
| ndipanov | what I am trying to say is that we should design that API to not be only about instances | 15:27 |
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| dansmith | the critical difference to me is the semantic meaning of the interface | 15:27 |
| bauzas | edleafe: because you are no longer mentioning those 2 steps | 15:28 |
| ndipanov | dansmith, go on | 15:28 |
| edleafe | bauzas: the new version doesn't have scheduler keeping a list of instances | 15:28 |
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| lxsli | ndipanov: we only need instances today - we can add other info later, maybe after the split is further progressed + the scheduler is truly owning instance data | 15:28 |
| dansmith | ndipanov: I don't know what you mean about "making it not just about instances" | 15:28 |
| bauzas | ndipanov: FYI that's been approved for Aggregates http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/nova-specs/specs/kilo/approved/isolate-scheduler-db-aggregates.html | 15:28 |
| dansmith | the only thing that needs to be communicated immediately is about instances, AIUI | 15:29 |
| edleafe | dansmith: correct | 15:29 |
| ndipanov | dansmith, ok | 15:29 |
| edleafe | dansmith: and only two attributes of the instances | 15:29 |
| dansmith | edleafe: eh? what two attributes? | 15:29 |
| edleafe | dansmith: uuid and instance_type_id | 15:30 |
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| dansmith | I don't think I agree with that | 15:30 |
| edleafe | dansmith: those are the only two things that the filters need | 15:30 |
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| dansmith | that makes the API far too specific to be generally useful going forward | 15:30 |
| ndipanov | dansmith, agreed | 15:30 |
| dansmith | edleafe: yeah, but that just makes it useless for anything else | 15:30 |
| lxsli | edleafe: I think we're all happy to store all instance attrs rather than splitting it down so fine though | 15:30 |
| ndipanov | I see what dansmith is saying | 15:30 |
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| dansmith | edleafe: we need to just pass the whole instance object | 15:30 |
| ndipanov | and then have a "protocol" on how to pass updates | 15:31 |
| bauzas | dansmith: that, we agreed | 15:31 |
| dansmith | edleafe: the scheduler can glean whatever it needs from that information, regardless of what it is looking for -- the compute node doesn't and shouldn't care | 15:31 |
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| bauzas | ndipanov: that's what we're trying to provide, ie. a new Scheduler RPC API method for updating Scheduler's view | 15:31 |
| edleafe | dansmith: agreed - that was my original logic | 15:32 |
| ndipanov | bauzas, that's what I lobbied for in that spec too | 15:32 |
| edleafe | jaypipes objected to the the individual updates | 15:32 |
| edleafe | he pushed for sending the full InstanceList | 15:32 |
| bauzas | ndipanov: so, I think it was unclear in edleafe's spec then, because it was explicit in my own spec for aggregates | 15:32 |
| edleafe | so that there would be no issues involving sync | 15:32 |
| bauzas | ndipanov: ie. we have a warmup period for learning the world, and then we provide updates to the scheduler | 15:33 |
| dansmith | IMHO, syncing the entire list any time anything happens is faaaar too heavy | 15:33 |
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| bauzas | dansmith: hence your point on only sending the diff | 15:33 |
| dansmith | bauzas: stop saying diff :) | 15:33 |
| bauzas | the diff being the full Instance object | 15:33 |
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| dansmith | bauzas: "affected instance" | 15:33 |
| dansmith | heh | 15:33 |
| ndipanov | bauzas, would that work for aggregates too? | 15:33 |
| lxsli | There was a suggestion to send the whole InstanceList on startup; just the changed Instance on change; and the instance UUIDs from each host periodically to prevent desync | 15:33 |
| bauzas | you typed too fast | 15:34 |
| bauzas | ndipanov: see the spec http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/nova-specs/specs/kilo/approved/isolate-scheduler-db-aggregates.html | 15:34 |
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| bauzas | ndipanov: the problem with instances is that it doesn't scale the same as for aggregates | 15:34 |
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| ndipanov | bauzas, right... | 15:34 |
| bauzas | ndipanov: that's far more bigger than just a list of aggs | 15:35 |
| bauzas | so this is a scale problem, not a design problem | 15:35 |
| bauzas | because we agreed on providing the updates thru RPC to the scheduler | 15:35 |
| ndipanov | so what dansmith is saying is - design the API so that it can scale if it has to (I think) | 15:35 |
| bauzas | fanout for the moment, incremental updates in a later cycle | 15:35 |
| jaypipes | edleafe: I only objected because I thought it was an optimization that could be done over time... | 15:36 |
| bauzas | ndipanov: that, I strongly agree | 15:36 |
| ndipanov | bauzas, hmm | 15:36 |
| bauzas | ndipanov: eh, multiple schedulers... | 15:36 |
| edleafe | jaypipes: exactly | 15:36 |
| dansmith | ndipanov: scale reasonably, so as not to be too specific to be irrelevant for new things, and not too heavy to be ,,, unscalable | 15:36 |
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| edleafe | jaypipes: but it seems that it needs to be done upfront | 15:36 |
| ndipanov | dansmith, exactly! | 15:36 |
| bauzas | dansmith: smart words | 15:36 |
| ndipanov | jaypipes, I'd say it's part of the semantics really | 15:36 |
| ndipanov | I mean | 15:36 |
| jaypipes | edleafe: yes, after chatting with dansmith yesterday, I think I agree the API should be corrected now, not later. | 15:37 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: I think I agree with you | 15:37 |
| edleafe | ok, so let me see if I can summarize | 15:37 |
| ndipanov | so wouldn't the API for instances and aggregates then look super similar? | 15:37 |
| bauzas | jaypipes: we only need to send the instance that is being impacted, period | 15:37 |
| edleafe | - go back to previous design (discussed at midcycle) | 15:37 |
| bauzas | ndipanov: that's my thought | 15:38 |
| lxsli | There was a suggestion to send the whole InstanceList on startup; just the changed Instance on change; and the instance UUIDs from each host periodically to prevent desync | 15:38 |
| dansmith | ndipanov: if we send an object, then we could have one update method and send any object the scheduler should know about down that tube, is that what you mean? | 15:38 |
| edleafe | - change it to add an incremental update for changed instances | 15:38 |
| ndipanov | dansmith, well maybe | 15:38 |
| ndipanov | not sure that it's relevant enough to block all work on | 15:38 |
| ndipanov | but seems like here's intial state of this thing | 15:38 |
| edleafe | - add a regular update of all UUIDs that scheduler can use to chaeck for snc problems | 15:38 |
| ndipanov | here are updates | 15:38 |
| ndipanov | is the pattern not tied to the object at hand | 15:39 |
| edleafe | - add a way for scheduler to ask for updates to missing/extra instance | 15:39 |
| bauzas | ndipanov: +1 | 15:39 |
| edleafe | Is that about right? | 15:39 |
| lxsli | edleafe: +1 | 15:39 |
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| ndipanov | so not sure UUIDs are what we want here | 15:40 |
| ndipanov | as they are kind of instance specific | 15:40 |
| lxsli | ndipanov: instances are all we need for now | 15:40 |
| ndipanov | hmmm | 15:40 |
| lxsli | we discussed that | 15:40 |
| ndipanov | right | 15:40 |
| bauzas | ndipanov: we can just send over the wire the whole Instance object | 15:40 |
| ndipanov | bauzas, I'd prefer to use the facilites provided by objects | 15:40 |
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| lxsli | bauzas: this is for preventing desync - a UUID list is lighter than an InstanceList | 15:40 |
| ndipanov | even if it means extending them with an optional global ID that is not the DB id | 15:40 |
| ndipanov | dansmith, ? ^ | 15:41 |
| dansmith | huh? why do we need that? | 15:41 |
| edleafe | ndipanov: um, isn't that what a uuid is? | 15:41 |
| ndipanov | well not sure we do | 15:41 |
| ndipanov | edleafe, it is but won't work for aggregates | 15:41 |
| bauzas | lxsli: I thought we discussed on only sending *one* item thru RPC, ie. update_instance() (with the arg being something related to *one* instance) | 15:41 |
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| lxsli | Yes, for "change it to add an incremental update for changed instances" | 15:41 |
| ndipanov | so that's why I would avoid sticking to instance semantincs - and use Object semantics rather | 15:42 |
| ndipanov | if that makes sense | 15:42 |
| lxsli | bauzas, but for "add a regular update of all UUIDs that scheduler can use to check for sync problems" we'll use UUIDs not an InstanceList | 15:42 |
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| edleafe | ndipanov: that sounds like quite a different spec, though | 15:42 |
| dansmith | ndipanov: I think the scheduler still needs to have an isinstance(thing_being_updated, objects.Instance) logic | 15:42 |
| bauzas | ndipanov: again, http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/nova-specs/specs/kilo/approved/isolate-scheduler-db-aggregates.html is referring to passing over the wire an Aggregate object as parameter | 15:42 |
| dansmith | ndipanov: but the interface can be "here's an object I just changed" | 15:42 |
| edleafe | ndipanov: adding a general interface for any service to update scheduler about any type of object | 15:42 |
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| edleafe | ndipanov: I can see that as the next step, but it seems a bit overreaching for now | 15:43 |
| n0ano | if I understand, we pass the entire instance object and this code would only extrace the UUID, other code would extract other parts | 15:43 |
| bauzas | edleafe: atm, we need dedicated interfaces for each type of resouce, we will factorize this later | 15:43 |
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| ndipanov | edleafe, well how do you go from this to general | 15:43 |
| ndipanov | there is no way other than adding a completely separate new API | 15:44 |
| ndipanov | and iiuc this whole effort correctly | 15:44 |
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| ndipanov | it's about making the gantt interfaces solid | 15:44 |
| ndipanov | (not necessarily perfect) | 15:44 |
| ndipanov | but workable | 15:44 |
| dansmith | no, I don't think so | 15:44 |
| ndipanov | ok | 15:44 |
| dansmith | I think that this effort is actually about solving this one problem in a vacuum | 15:44 |
| edleafe | dansmith: yes | 15:45 |
| dansmith | what we want to avoid, however, is pinning ourselves into an interface that isn't supportable as we make the next step to migrate to gantt | 15:45 |
| lxsli | yes | 15:45 |
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| ndipanov | well in that case - use UUIDs and a new client method and all other things you guys said | 15:45 |
| ndipanov | and call it an Instance something | 15:45 |
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| ndipanov | update_instances_on_host_or_whatever | 15:46 |
| lxsli | that sounds excellent | 15:46 |
| ndipanov | it may not actually be such a bad idea | 15:46 |
| edleafe | ndipanov: 'update_instance_info()' - it's in the spec :) | 15:46 |
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| ndipanov | though I would like to see it more general | 15:47 |
| n0ano | then, just to be clear, do we all agree on edleafe proposed steps: | 15:47 |
| n0ano | - go back to previous design (discussed at midcycle) | 15:47 |
| n0ano | - change it to add an incremental update for changed instances | 15:47 |
| n0ano | - add a regular update of all UUIDs that scheduler can use to chaeck for snc problems | 15:47 |
| n0ano | - add a way for scheduler to ask for updates to missing/extra instance | 15:47 |
| lxsli | +1 | 15:47 |
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| jaypipes | +1 | 15:47 |
| ndipanov | I guess | 15:47 |
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| ndipanov | +1 | 15:47 |
| bauzas | that sounds reasonable | 15:47 |
| bauzas | +1 | 15:47 |
| alex_xu_ | +1 | 15:47 |
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| ndipanov | we can really look into making it more general later on | 15:48 |
| edleafe | ndipanov: I understand your frustration. This is the sort of thing I was hoping we would have addressed more clearly earlier on. | 15:48 |
| bauzas | ndipanov: yeah, that's something we needed to work out after all of this | 15:48 |
| n0ano | edleafe, I think we have a plan, let's all try and review the updated spec as soon as it comes out | 15:48 |
| ndipanov | edleafe, yeah - I mean - it is about striking a balance between moving forward and not having a horrible API | 15:48 |
| lxsli | ndipanov: agreed, I'm looking forward to edleafe's plans for "making gantt own it completely rather than asking nova-compute in a different way" | 15:48 |
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| edleafe | hence my desire to discuss general the scheduler interface at the midcycle | 15:48 |
| bauzas | edleafe: I was thinking there was a consensus on this... | 15:49 |
| ndipanov | not sure what "making gantt own it completely rather than asking nova-compute in a different way" exactly means | 15:49 |
| edleafe | bauzas: agreed | 15:49 |
| bauzas | edleafe: again, one spec has been approved, the other one is only different because of a scale problem | 15:49 |
| edleafe | ndipanov: it means that the scheduler needs to persist information it needs to make scheduling decisions. | 15:50 |
| ndipanov | right | 15:50 |
| edleafe | We're nowhere near that now | 15:50 |
| ndipanov | well we are persisting it in the DB :) | 15:50 |
| ndipanov | but yes I get what you mean | 15:50 |
| n0ano | ndipanov, what I was going to say | 15:50 |
| bauzas | edleafe: that probably requires another scheduler worker | 15:50 |
| bauzas | edleafe: but I prefer to leave it for Gantt | 15:50 |
| lxsli | Ten minutes, did we have a 2nd agenda item n0ano ? | 15:51 |
| bauzas | edleafe: because of the scaling problem mentioned by johnthetubaguy | 15:51 |
| ndipanov | bauzas, I also don't think it's bad to have two different ways to update 1) gimme all 2) gimme updates | 15:51 |
| n0ano | guys, we're running out of time... | 15:51 |
| n0ano | #topic opens | 15:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "opens (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:51 | |
| ndipanov | so ur spec is cool too | 15:51 |
| ndipanov | edleafe, anyway ping me when spec is updated pls | 15:51 |
| n0ano | any opens for today (not enough time to talk about patches) | 15:52 |
| edleafe | ndipanov: will do | 15:52 |
| dims__ | open discussion? | 15:52 |
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| n0ano | dims__, yes, right nwo | 15:52 |
| johnthetubaguy | edleafe: do ping me about the spec too, once you folks are happy with it | 15:52 |
| n0ano | s/nwo/now | 15:52 |
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| edleafe | johnthetubaguy: you got it | 15:52 |
| johnthetubaguy | :) | 15:52 |
| * n0ano johnthetubaguy just asked to be bothered, works for me :-) | 15:53 | |
| bauzas | eh eh | 15:53 |
| bauzas | crickets for opens ? | 15:53 |
| johnthetubaguy | yup, saves me attempting to remember and failing | 15:53 |
| lxsli | if there's nothing else | 15:53 |
| dims__ | ok, nova cores, there's a well curated quick hit list of bugs that are ready for review (updated few times every day) https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/kilo-nova-priorities-tracking | 15:53 |
| lxsli | dansmith ndipanov: do you agree on the way forward for https://review.openstack.org/#/c/152689/ please? | 15:53 |
| bauzas | dims__: is that the right place to discuss this ? :D | 15:53 |
| n0ano | dims__, yeah, but that is more approriate for the nova meeting on Thurs | 15:53 |
| bauzas | dims__: see /topic | 15:53 |
| ndipanov | wow! | 15:54 |
| dims__ | whoops. sorry :) | 15:54 |
| n0ano | dims__, NP | 15:54 |
| dansmith | lxsli: I rarely agree to anything | 15:54 |
| ndipanov | ah that thing | 15:54 |
| ndipanov | well I think we do in general | 15:54 |
| lxsli | dansmith: noted... | 15:54 |
| n0ano | OK, I think we're done for today | 15:54 |
| ndipanov | I thought we did | 15:54 |
| n0ano | tnx everyone, be back here next week | 15:54 |
| n0ano | #endmeeting | 15:54 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:55 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Feb 10 15:54:59 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:55 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2015/gantt.2015-02-10-15.00.html | 15:55 |
| ndipanov | :( | 15:55 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2015/gantt.2015-02-10-15.00.txt | 15:55 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2015/gantt.2015-02-10-15.00.log.html | 15:55 |
| lxsli | OK just checking, I thought there might be something remaining - thanks! | 15:55 |
| bauzas | lxsli: sounds like jaypipes still has homework on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/152689/ | 15:55 |
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| bauzas | lxsli: it's tomato red | 15:55 |
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| dims__ | lol | 15:55 |
| jaypipes | yep, haven't gotten to it. | 15:55 |
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| bauzas | jaypipes: eh, what are you wanting for cloning yourself as I said previously ? | 15:56 |
| bauzas | waiting | 15:56 |
| bauzas | (dammit, stupid keyboard) | 15:56 |
| n0ano | bauzas, must be a programmer, blames the HW first :-) | 15:56 |
| bauzas | n0ano: if we were Python objects, it would be very simple, so that's only a matter of trust | 15:57 |
| n0ano | :-) | 15:57 |
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| lxsli | bauzas: yes, trying to avoid hassling jay while clearing his path for when he's ready :) | 16:10 |
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| boris-42 | #startmeeting Rally | 17:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Feb 10 17:00:18 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is boris-42. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'rally' | 17:00 |
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| boris-42 | Hey hey | 17:00 |
| rvasilets_ | hi | 17:01 |
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| olkonami | hi | 17:03 |
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| amaretskiy | hi | 17:05 |
| boris-42 | okay let's start | 17:05 |
| boris-42 | #topic Refactoring graphs algorithms to make them scalable | 17:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Refactoring graphs algorithms to make them scalable (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:05 | |
| boris-42 | amaretskiy: please share the status | 17:05 |
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| amaretskiy | i'm currently working on chunks support in html report | 17:06 |
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| amaretskiy | this means we can generate report from any count of iterations | 17:06 |
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| amaretskiy | with low memory usage | 17:06 |
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| amaretskiy | this requires complete rework of plot.py and its utils | 17:06 |
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| amaretskiy | now I have this patch set https://review.openstack.org/#/c/146814/ | 17:07 |
| amaretskiy | it is still WIP | 17:07 |
| amaretskiy | and today will be next patch set | 17:07 |
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| amaretskiy | rework requires a lot of time | 17:07 |
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| amaretskiy | I believe that for next meeting this will be without WIP mark | 17:08 |
| amaretskiy | eom | 17:08 |
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| boris-42 | amaretskiy: so what you did between patch on review and now | 17:08 |
| amaretskiy | i've reworked Histogram class | 17:09 |
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| amaretskiy | so now histogram allows create chart with one cycle over the task results | 17:09 |
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| amaretskiy | that requires change of task results schema obtained from the database | 17:10 |
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| amaretskiy | this class will be available in today's patch set | 17:10 |
| amaretskiy | in 1 our | 17:10 |
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| amaretskiy | eom | 17:10 |
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| boris-42 | amaretskiy: I hope you didn't change the schema for now? | 17:12 |
| amaretskiy | no | 17:12 |
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| boris-42 | amaretskiy: ok great I am going to cover that part | 17:12 |
| amaretskiy | i just added a code stub that changes schema in runtime | 17:12 |
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| boris-42 | amaretskiy: it's in objects? | 17:13 |
| amaretskiy | so this stub should be removed during chunks generator implementation | 17:13 |
| amaretskiy | yes | 17:13 |
| boris-42 | amaretskiy: ok | 17:13 |
| boris-42 | great | 17:13 |
| amaretskiy | that is in objects.task.get_results | 17:13 |
| boris-42 | Let move to next topic | 17:13 |
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| boris-42 | amaretskiy: ok I am waiting for your patch | 17:13 |
| boris-42 | #topic Murano base | 17:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Murano base (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:13 | |
| boris-42 | rvasilets_: hey hey | 17:13 |
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| boris-42 | rvasilets_: what are your updates? | 17:14 |
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| rvasilets_ | Hi? at the patch you can look here https://review.openstack.org/#/c/137650/55 | 17:14 |
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| rvasilets_ | This is already working patch | 17:14 |
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| rvasilets_ | But I have some ideas to improve performance of it | 17:15 |
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| rvasilets_ | I have already implemented it, but the new tests issues. Nothing else. The logic of murano context is the same as was | 17:16 |
| boris-42 | rvasilets_: ok great | 17:16 |
| rvasilets_ | Just I have use another module to copy directories | 17:16 |
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| boris-42 | amaretskiy: ^ could you take a look as well on this patch | 17:17 |
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| amaretskiy | ok | 17:17 |
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| rvasilets_ | Now I don't use subproccess command that takes a lot of time | 17:18 |
| rvasilets_ | eom | 17:18 |
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| boris-42 | #topic Overall updates in project | 17:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Overall updates in project (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:19 | |
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| boris-42 | We finished ' -> " | 17:21 |
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| rvasilets_ | orz | 17:21 |
| boris-42 | Fixed couple bugs related to Neutron (in VMTask benchmarks) | 17:22 |
| boris-42 | Almost finished stop-on-sla-failure feature | 17:22 |
| boris-42 | Add Mistral base for tests + set job in Mistral | 17:22 |
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| boris-42 | Add benchmark for quotas | 17:23 |
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| boris-42 | Add benchmark for designate servers | 17:23 |
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| boris-42 | Add new rally.api (base for lib) and switched to it | 17:23 |
| boris-42 | Fixed postgres | 17:23 |
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| boris-42 | Add job for testing postgres & python34 (functional) | 17:24 |
| boris-42 | And add base for plugins | 17:24 |
| boris-42 | that's more or less all=) | 17:24 |
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| boris-42 | any questions? | 17:24 |
| rediskin | pg+34 is turned off for now | 17:24 |
| boris-42 | Ah various changes and optimization for "rally verify" part | 17:24 |
| boris-42 | rediskin: oh as far as you are here | 17:24 |
| boris-42 | #topic Rally Mirantis CI updates | 17:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Rally Mirantis CI updates (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:25 | |
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| boris-42 | rediskin: please share updates with us related to it | 17:25 |
| rediskin | rally ci is ready to +1/-1 | 17:25 |
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| rediskin | more info is available on openstack wiki | 17:26 |
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| boris-42 | rediskin: please | 17:27 |
| rediskin | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ThirdPartySystems/Mirantis_Rally_CI | 17:27 |
| boris-42 | rediskin: share what you did during the latest week | 17:27 |
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| boris-42 | rediskin: so? | 17:28 |
| rediskin | i was busy doing code review | 17:28 |
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| rediskin | and doing many small changes to rally-ci | 17:29 |
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| rediskin | you want me to list this stuff? anyone cares about it? | 17:29 |
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| boris-42 | rediskin: at least I care about it.. | 17:30 |
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| boris-42 | rediskin: not enough?) | 17:30 |
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| rediskin | omg you know what i did last week %) | 17:31 |
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| rediskin | boris-42, also, path with rally-gate.py is ready to be reviewed | 17:31 |
| rediskin | again | 17:31 |
| rediskin | patch* | 17:31 |
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| boris-42 | rediskin: but | 17:32 |
| boris-42 | rediskin: you didnt' switch our CI | 17:32 |
| boris-42 | rediskin: I mean not our | 17:32 |
| boris-42 | rediskin: Infra CI to use your script | 17:32 |
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| boris-42 | rediskin: so are you going to switch? | 17:33 |
| rediskin | boris-42, oh, ok. I'll do this | 17:33 |
| boris-42 | rediskin: so when you finish this I will re-review your patch | 17:33 |
| rediskin | ok | 17:33 |
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| msdubov | Hi everyone, sorry for being late | 17:34 |
| rediskin | hiyo | 17:35 |
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| boris-42 | msdubov: hey hey | 17:36 |
| boris-42 | #topic sla-stop-on-failure | 17:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "sla-stop-on-failure (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:36 | |
| boris-42 | msdubov: okay please share your updates | 17:36 |
| msdubov | boris-42 ok | 17:36 |
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| msdubov | So I've already told about this patch the previous week | 17:37 |
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| boris-42 | msdubov: did you work today on functional tests | 17:37 |
| msdubov | For now, I believe it is almost ready and tested | 17:37 |
| msdubov | boris-42 yep | 17:37 |
| msdubov | Not finished yet | 17:37 |
| boris-42 | msdubov: ah ok | 17:37 |
| msdubov | Hope to finish today | 17:37 |
| boris-42 | msdubov: okay I need as well to finish constant runner | 17:38 |
| boris-42 | msdubov: I think that we should wait for constant runner before new release | 17:38 |
| boris-42 | msdubov: ok so tomorrow probably we will merge that patch | 17:38 |
| msdubov | boris-42 Yes, as the SLA patch showed the current runner is not good enough :) | 17:38 |
| boris-42 | msdubov: and Rally will get nice feature=) | 17:38 |
| boris-42 | msdubov: yaya | 17:38 |
| msdubov | Agree | 17:38 |
| boris-42 | msdubov: actually I know from the begging that it's bad | 17:39 |
| boris-42 | msdubov: cause it was using processes instead of threads in each process =) | 17:39 |
| msdubov | Can I help you with the new ruuner? | 17:39 |
| boris-42 | msdubov: yep you will | 17:39 |
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| boris-42 | msdubov: I will just make raw code | 17:39 |
| msdubov | boris-42 ok | 17:39 |
| boris-42 | msdubov: and you'll continue to make it perfect | 17:39 |
| boris-42 | =) | 17:39 |
| boris-42 | actually I think it's more or less everything that we should discuss | 17:39 |
| boris-42 | #topic Open discussion | 17:40 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:40 | |
| boris-42 | any questions? | 17:40 |
| amaretskiy | no | 17:40 |
| rvasilets_ | no | 17:40 |
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| boris-42 | okay let's end meeting | 17:43 |
| boris-42 | #endmeeting | 17:43 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:43 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Feb 10 17:43:49 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:43 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2015/rally.2015-02-10-17.00.html | 17:43 |
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| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2015/rally.2015-02-10-17.00.txt | 17:43 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2015/rally.2015-02-10-17.00.log.html | 17:43 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, ayoung, dstanek, jamielennox, morganfainberg, stevemar, gyee, henrynash, topol, marekd, lbragstad, joesavak, shardy, fabiog, nkinder, lloydm, shrekuma, ksavich, hrybacki, rharwood, grantbow, vdreamarkitex, raildo, rodrigods, amakarov, ajayaa, hogepodge, breton, lhcheng, nonameentername, samueldmq, htruta, amolock, wanghong https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting#Main_Agenda | 17:59 |
| samueldmq | o/ | 17:59 |
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| lbragstad | yo | 17:59 |
| marekd | bonsoire | 17:59 |
| amakarov | hi! | 17:59 |
| raildo | o/ | 17:59 |
| dstanek | o/ | 17:59 |
| ayoung | I've lost all track of time. What day is it again? | 17:59 |
| dolphm | o/ | 17:59 |
| dolphm | ayoung: meeting day | 17:59 |
| dstanek | it's yesterday | 17:59 |
| gyee | \o | 18:00 |
| ayoung | Its Groundhog Day here. | 18:00 |
| gyee | heh | 18:00 |
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| morganfainberg | lol | 18:00 |
| lhcheng | o/ | 18:00 |
| morganfainberg | #startmeeting Keystone | 18:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Feb 10 18:00:35 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is morganfainberg. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:00 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:00 |
| morganfainberg | So some quick house keeping and we'll get into the meeting | 18:00 |
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| morganfainberg | 1) Please review code. | 18:00 |
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| topol | o/ | 18:01 |
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| morganfainberg | we've been slow on getting code landed due to limited feedback on open reviews, with exception of stevemar and bknudson (and topol on -specs repo), we've all been somewhat guilty of letting things slide (myself included) | 18:01 |
| joesavak | \o | 18:01 |
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| morganfainberg | so great job stevemar, bknudson, and topol, but you shouldn't need to carry all the reviews. | 18:02 |
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| ayoung | I've been slogging through access info....years of cruft.... | 18:02 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, yep i know | 18:02 |
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| dstanek | i've been awful ... | 18:02 |
| morganfainberg | but if you work on that other reviewers should be easily covering the gap | 18:02 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, taking a break to work on a major initiative like accessinfo shouldn't impact us that much, but everyone has been off elsewhere | 18:03 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung, so it's def. not you specifically | 18:03 |
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| ayoung | We hates...oh we hates it precious...no no we loves it. | 18:03 |
| morganfainberg | part of it is that the core team is small and we've been very busy everywhere. | 18:03 |
| morganfainberg | so, in that light i've proposed marekd as a new addition to the core team: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-February/056478.html | 18:04 |
| gyee | precious | 18:04 |
| morganfainberg | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-February/056478.html | 18:04 |
| gyee | not sure about that Friday the 13th date though | 18:04 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, shh, it's a lucky day | 18:04 |
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| gyee | for those of us into lunar calendar, 13 is a lucky number! | 18:05 |
| morganfainberg | his added +2/-2 capability will help smooth things out as well even as we see an uptick from other core reviewers. | 18:05 |
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| morganfainberg | and... | 18:05 |
| morganfainberg | hm. there was one more housekeeping thign | 18:05 |
| rodrigods | ++ | 18:05 |
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| ayoung | marekd, marekd ... he'll go down in history!!!! | 18:06 |
| * ayoung has a little bit of cabin fever | 18:06 | |
| morganfainberg | Reminder March 5th is Feature proposal freeze | 18:06 |
| marekd | ayoung: by creating the biggest black hole with help of OpenStack | 18:06 |
| marekd | :-) | 18:06 |
| ayoung | You fool! You will DESTROY US ALL! | 18:07 |
| rodrigods | lol | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | meaning, if the code is not ready to gate by march 5th, it isn't landing in Kilo w/o an exception on the mailing list (probably will include release manager ttx on if we'll accept it) | 18:07 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: anyway, thanks for that opportunity, I will do my best go help you. | 18:07 |
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| marekd | s/go/to/ | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | ok | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | on to the main agenda | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | #topic Allow disabling of SQL extra attribute storage | 18:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Allow disabling of SQL extra attribute storage (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:07 | |
| morganfainberg | henrynash o/ | 18:07 |
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| henrynash | hmm…that was from kast week! | 18:08 |
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| henrynash | last week, even | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | oh | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | hmm. | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | #undo | 18:08 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x93ffa90> | 18:08 |
| dolphm | rofl | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | was Email as a first class attribute also last week? | 18:08 |
| gyee | marekd, your best? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3UQwyKrTtI | 18:08 |
| henrynash | yep | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | ok | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | Barbican backend for Keystone Credential API | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | ? | 18:08 |
| bknudson | last week | 18:08 |
| henrynash | not sure | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | hmm. | 18:09 |
| morganfainberg | wow i really spaced on cleaning up the agenda | 18:09 |
| morganfainberg | sorry | 18:09 |
| henrynash | heh, we getting through this agenda really quick this week | 18:09 |
| morganfainberg | ok so #topic Spec Proposal Deadline and Feature Proposal Freeze for L-Cycle | 18:09 |
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| morganfainberg | #topic Spec Proposal Deadline and Feature Proposal Freeze for L-Cycle | 18:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Spec Proposal Deadline and Feature Proposal Freeze for L-Cycle (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:09 | |
| henrynash | definitely not last week | 18:09 |
| marekd | gyee: you are right :( | 18:09 |
| morganfainberg | ok so since we just passed SPF (spec proposal freeze) | 18:09 |
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| morganfainberg | how does everyone feel about the timing of it | 18:10 |
| morganfainberg | is m2 the right place for it, or should we be closer to m1 for the l-cycle | 18:10 |
| ayoung | I propose that we no longer propse specs on a per release basis | 18:10 |
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| ayoung | -2 of a spec to hold it is dumb...lets just put everything in backlog until it is passed | 18:10 |
| gyee | we have a name for L yeah? Love | 18:10 |
| ayoung | then move to the slot where it is going to be implemented afterwards | 18:10 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung, thats fine, but what would be the cut-off for moving things to a release | 18:11 |
| ayoung | Spec freeze, of course | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg | which is m2 a good time for it? | 18:11 |
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| morganfainberg | which was my original question ;) | 18:11 |
| gyee | about spec and wip code together? | 18:11 |
| henrynash | i think m2 is about right | 18:11 |
| gyee | easier to comprehend | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg | my only concern with m2 is we're very compressed in milestone 3 | 18:11 |
| ayoung | Meh..I think we are arbitrarily giving ourselves deadlines | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg | and we have a lot of code to land | 18:11 |
| rodrigods | m2 is close | 18:12 |
| ayoung | we treat the specs as finished docs, and quibble over spellinggg | 18:12 |
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| rodrigods | what was the freeze used by nova? m1? | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, as the person on the hook to manage what we're landing, i can say that is def. your view. | 18:12 |
| dolphm | ayoung: the goal is to try and anticipate what is going to land, and help focus reviewers on a smaller subset of patches | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, quibbling over the spelling should not be a -1 going forward, we're getting better about it but it's a slow move | 18:12 |
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| morganfainberg | rodrigods, yes it was m1 in nova afaik | 18:12 |
| henrynash | morganfainberg: so when we had this discussion for K we said: | 18:13 |
| morganfainberg | i think M1 is probably a better place for SPF | 18:13 |
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| morganfainberg | henrynash, we didn't start on specs till post RC for K - which did drive that decision as well. it's why i'm asking now so we can give lots of lead | 18:13 |
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| henrynash | morganfainberg: get specs in as soon as possible….m1 is best, m2 is latest…. | 18:13 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, there are lots of artificialities here. I'm not going to go off on a rant, but I think a spec should be submitted and approved in a single direcotry, and the milestone part should be accepting that code for a given release | 18:13 |
| rodrigods | keeping M1 as SPF, we can focus first on have specs merged and than submit the code | 18:14 |
| bknudson | we've got 27 approved specs for K... not sure what all has been completed already & what's left to complete -- http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/keystone-specs/ | 18:14 |
| rodrigods | midcycle would be a lot about coding | 18:14 |
| bknudson | also, some blueprints don't have specs. | 18:14 |
| ayoung | so, if a spec is not even approved by deadline, it certainly won't be allowed to be both approved and assigned to the deadline. | 18:14 |
| henrynash | morganfainberg:……and if you leave it to m2 you rub this risk of it not getting ocde approved in time for m3….and that’s teh risk you run leaving the spec until m2.... | 18:14 |
| bknudson | so maybe should be looking at blueprints instead.... | 18:14 |
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| morganfainberg | henrynash, exactly | 18:14 |
| henrynash | morganfainberg: so I guess the question is, do we need to harden that advice.... | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg | so keep in mind this convo, i'll ask again in a couple weeks near FPF | 18:14 |
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| morganfainberg | and we'll make a call then for L-cycle | 18:15 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung, and i'm fine with the change of how specs are proposed | 18:15 |
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| ayoung | I think what we have now is fine as far as the actual M2 freeze. Keep the workflow stable and we'll work with it | 18:15 |
| gyee | lets see how this cycle goes first | 18:15 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, this is just seeding the idea to keep everything in mind. no decisions are being made today | 18:15 |
| morganfainberg | ok thats it for my topic. | 18:16 |
| ayoung | If anything, I think we could use some better guidelines on what goes in to aspec, and what is necessary for one to be approved. | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg | #topic Open Discussion | 18:16 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:16 | |
| bknudson | 19 blueprints targeted to k-3 | 18:16 |
| ayoung | I'l like it to be something like this: | 18:16 |
| bknudson | https://launchpad.net/keystone/+milestone/kilo-3 | 18:16 |
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| ayoung | 1. Idea is approved, but needs to be fleshed out; | 18:16 |
| ayoung | 2. Details are fleshed out and overall spec is approved | 18:16 |
| gyee | x.509 authz wip coming shortly | 18:16 |
| ayoung | 3. Spec is assigned to a specific release | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, and for the most part those have not been started or are in jepordy for not landing in k | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, afaict | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg | with a few exceptions | 18:17 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: aren't 1 and 2 just backlog, unless 3 is true? | 18:17 |
| dolphm | and 2 is a pre-req for 3? | 18:17 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, Yes, but I think the backlog is far more important than we treat it. | 18:18 |
| gyee | spec and wip code, wip code flush the details in the spec | 18:18 |
| bknudson | I don't see what makes backlog important... what's important is getting features done and merged and working. | 18:18 |
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| gyee | agile :) | 18:18 |
| ayoung | dolphm, you and I have been doing thiws for 3+ years now, and we see just how fast the cycles pass. I want to stop thinking in terms of "the next six months" and instead think in terms of "what should this look like" | 18:18 |
| dolphm | ayoung: i don't know, i haven't experienced much value out of labeling something as "backlog" versus keeping it alive in gerrit until it's ready. maybe someone else has a different experience with backlog/? | 18:19 |
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| ayoung | next 6 months is just "those features that are ready go on the bus" | 18:19 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, i think the backlog makes sense from a "this is a good idea" and doesn't clog up gerrit | 18:19 |
| lbragstad | backlog just seems like a way to get it off the main burner and worry about it later | 18:19 |
| morganfainberg | if we have things that aren't going to land this cycle. | 18:19 |
| bknudson | things change in 6 months so what we though was important 6 months ago maybe isn't anymore. | 18:19 |
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| morganfainberg | haivng a ton of -2s in gerrit is ugly | 18:19 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: gerrit solves that with -2's -> abandon | 18:19 |
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| dolphm | morganfainberg: abandon cleans those up nicely :) | 18:19 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, no the procedural -2 is crappy workflow | 18:20 |
| morganfainberg | thats all. | 18:20 |
| ayoung | Approved specs are really valuable in a org like ours where we have more and more people coming in to contribute, and the core needs to shift gears to supervisory mode | 18:20 |
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| ayoung | bknudson, then we can knock off a spec. | 18:20 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, i agree based upon internal HP stuff | 18:20 |
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| morganfainberg | having an approved list of things to work on helps them jump in | 18:20 |
| gyee | ++ | 18:20 |
| morganfainberg | they want to work on things, but the "get a spec approved" is a big barrier | 18:20 |
| morganfainberg | if we want some stuff in keystone, having a clear "this is approved to be worked on" is a benefit | 18:21 |
| gyee | but we tend to argue alot over details in the spec | 18:21 |
| morganfainberg | it drastically lowers the barrier to entry | 18:21 |
| lbragstad | ++ | 18:21 |
| gyee | what's the right amount of details? | 18:21 |
| morganfainberg | gyee, that is the important question. | 18:21 |
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| gyee | I am fine with presenting the "idea" in the spec and follow on with a wip review | 18:22 |
| gyee | then API spec change if needed | 18:22 |
| ayoung | ++ | 18:22 |
| bknudson | we already have a backlog: http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/keystone-specs/specs/backlog/README.html | 18:22 |
| ayoung | so all -2ed specs we have righ now should be moved to backlog. | 18:23 |
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| ayoung | lets just start with that | 18:23 |
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| gyee | oh that's agile | 18:23 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson, and we should use the backlog | 18:24 |
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| morganfainberg | anything else? | 18:25 |
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| samueldmq | Blueprints for No-Spec Requires Status | 18:25 |
| morganfainberg | anything not on the agenda that we want to cover today? | 18:25 |
| morganfainberg | sure | 18:25 |
| morganfainberg | #topic BPs that don't need Specs | 18:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "BPs that don't need Specs (Meeting topic: Keystone)" | 18:25 | |
| samueldmq | ok .. .so I'm proposing Backends' Tests Restructuration | 18:26 |
| morganfainberg | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/backends-tests-restructuration | 18:26 |
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| samueldmq | yes, basically split test classes | 18:26 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek, o/ how does this work with the functional testing changes? | 18:26 |
| samueldmq | considering the available backends (resource, assignment, etc) | 18:26 |
| bknudson | I'm not a fan of the _ naming that we use in the tests... use / instead. | 18:26 |
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| bknudson | (i.e., split into subdirectories) | 18:26 |
| samueldmq | #link https://github.com/openstack/keystone/blob/master/keystone/tests/test_backend.py | 18:26 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, ++ | 18:26 |
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| dstanek | morganfainberg: i don't think it impacts it since they are not functional tests | 18:26 |
| samueldmq | this one ^ has 5k + lines | 18:27 |
| samueldmq | dstanek, ++ | 18:27 |
| dstanek | bknudson: ++ | 18:27 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek, ok just wanted to be sure :) | 18:27 |
| henrynash | bknudson: yes, I though we might have backend/assignment/sql for example | 18:27 |
| samueldmq | bknudson, I agree.. I also don't like to have everything in the same directory | 18:27 |
| bknudson | do we want to get further on functional testing before we accept refactoring unit tests? | 18:27 |
| morganfainberg | samueldmq, the only request i make is don't split everything in one patch ;) do it in reviewable bites | 18:27 |
| samueldmq | bknudson, as we have the code structure | 18:27 |
| dstanek | morganfainberg: samueldmq and i talked a little this morning about that topic | 18:27 |
| bknudson | at least, move functional tests into functional and unit tests into unit/ | 18:27 |
| samueldmq | morganfainberg, sure! | 18:27 |
| samueldmq | morganfainberg, I already started with test_v3_resource split | 18:28 |
| bknudson | henrynash: backend/assignment/sql would be great! | 18:28 |
| samueldmq | #link https://review.openstack.org/154080 | 18:28 |
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| henrynash | samueldmq: …although that is one go! | 18:28 |
| dstanek | this change does present the opportunity to move them into the unit directory | 18:28 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, i'll defer to you and dstanek on how you want to approach that (order of changing things) | 18:28 |
| morganfainberg | but i think this bp doesn't need a spec | 18:29 |
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| morganfainberg | in fact... it feels like the poster child for not needing a spec | 18:29 |
| henrynash | samueldmq: as now guardian of the <500 patch limit (hereby bestowed upon me by morganfainberg), let’s work together on this | 18:29 |
| gyee | morganfainberg, don't split? have you look at this dependency chain? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/144703/ | 18:29 |
| ayoung | I like....we've wnated this for a \while. jamie lennox proposed it early on | 18:29 |
| samueldmq | henrynash, ++ | 18:29 |
| morganfainberg | so, yes we want this | 18:29 |
| bknudson | I think dstanek (or someone) moving the existing tests into unit/ should be done first. | 18:29 |
| bknudson | as part of functional testing. | 18:29 |
| gyee | henrynash, sameldmq, s been doing dependency like everyday is tax day | 18:29 |
| henrynash | bknudson: yes, kind of agree | 18:29 |
| samueldmq | gyee, ++ :) I think I've splitted well there | 18:30 |
| dstanek | bknudson: i can do some, but i don't want to put too many crappy tests in there | 18:30 |
| bknudson | all of our tests now are unit tests, so they all go there. | 18:30 |
| dstanek | i was making them better as i moved them over - but i can be less anal about that | 18:30 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, so lets have dstanek work with samueldmq on the getting things moved | 18:30 |
| bknudson | dstanek: don't be anal! | 18:30 |
| dstanek | bknudson: i would disagree and say we have we little actual unit tests | 18:30 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, as part of the functional test and this bp. | 18:30 |
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| samueldmq | bknudson, but they arent unit tests ... I'd argue they are integration, since they involve both manager + driver | 18:31 |
| bknudson | dstanek: I agree that they're not unit tests but they don't use devstack. | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | before we devolve too far into ordering | 18:31 |
| dstanek | bknudson: yes, that's true | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | do we want a spec for this? I say no a spec is not needed | 18:31 |
| samueldmq | dstanek, bknudson they're integration tests | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | anyone view differently | 18:31 |
| bknudson | well, I'd prefer to not use _ for the test names | 18:32 |
| bknudson | so I don't like the blueprint as is. | 18:32 |
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| bknudson | _ for the test filenames. | 18:32 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, we can not approve the BP till it's ready | 18:32 |
| samueldmq | bknudson, we can split and then restructure in directories (as this would involve more files than involved in this patch) | 18:32 |
| morganfainberg | but does it need a spec. | 18:32 |
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| morganfainberg | i would say no. | 18:32 |
| dstanek | i'd rather see something more like keystone.tests.unit.backends.identity | 18:32 |
| morganfainberg | and i agree don't use _ for filenames | 18:32 |
| bknudson | doesn't affect the api so I'm fine with no spec. | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg | anyone really want a spec here? | 18:33 |
| lbragstad | ++ it would be nice to have a tree structure for our tests | 18:33 |
| gyee | no | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg | going once | 18:33 |
| dstanek | nope | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg | twice... | 18:33 |
| henrynash | no | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg | no spec | 18:33 |
| gyee | don't want spec either | 18:33 |
| samueldmq | nice! thanks :) | 18:33 |
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| morganfainberg | but please work to make things better in the bp / clear before it is approved | 18:33 |
| gyee | spec is needed whenever we mock around with any pubic interfacing stuff right? | 18:34 |
| samueldmq | ok, will discuss in the channel to see what will be addressed in this bp (directories ?, etc) thanks | 18:34 |
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| bknudson | if there's a change to the identity or extension API then I'd expect a spec. | 18:34 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, ++ | 18:34 |
| topol | makes sense! | 18:34 |
| dolphm | bknudson: for sure | 18:34 |
| gyee | not just API, any public facing stuff | 18:34 |
| bknudson | config options? | 18:35 |
| gyee | including backend interfaces | 18:35 |
| dolphm | gyee: ++ for anything that directly impacts users | 18:35 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, ideally yes | 18:35 |
| dolphm | / deployers | 18:35 |
| samueldmq | it depends, functional testing doesnt change identity apis, and we needed a spec :) | 18:35 |
| bknudson | I don't think we even have a section in the spec to consider backend interfaces. | 18:35 |
| gyee | bknudson, we need to | 18:35 |
| gyee | vendor have their own backend drivers | 18:36 |
| morganfainberg | samueldmq, that is a bit different, deployers might use the functional testing against a live cloud. | 18:36 |
| morganfainberg | samueldmq, it's also drastically changing how we test | 18:36 |
| bknudson | gyee: propose a spec! | 18:36 |
| gyee | damn straight | 18:36 |
| samueldmq | morganfainberg, ++ | 18:36 |
| bknudson | I think we wanted some initial docs for functional testing, too. | 18:36 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, ++ yes | 18:36 |
| samueldmq | morganfainberg, yes, that should be an exception | 18:36 |
| dstanek | samueldmq: that's also a pretty big effort - a spec is a great way to clarify things | 18:36 |
| bknudson | also, just because we don't require a spec doesn't mean one can't be written up. | 18:37 |
| morganfainberg | samueldmq, some of these cases we didn't ask for a spec, the proposer said "i'll do a spec" because it made it easier to explain things | 18:37 |
| samueldmq | dstanek, I agree, was just pointing out that 'identity changes' requires a spec is true | 18:37 |
| henrynash | bknudson: ++ in the past I’ve written one up to ensure everyone understood the impact | 18:37 |
| samueldmq | dstanek, but not all specs are there because they change identity api | 18:37 |
| bknudson | btw - proposed a spec to keystoneclient for deprecations -- https://review.openstack.org/#/c/153881/ | 18:38 |
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| samueldmq | morganfainberg, hmm .. ok makes sense | 18:38 |
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| gyee | bknudson, good one! | 18:38 |
| bknudson | a spec for https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/backends-tests-restructuration would be nice, but I'm fine with not requiring one. | 18:39 |
| morganfainberg | ok. so that covers those specs. | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | erm bps | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | since we don't have anything else on the agenda | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | we're going to call the meeting done 20 minutes early | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | please spend 20 mins and review code :) | 18:40 |
| rodrigods | first time ever | 18:40 |
| henrynash | oh boy! | 18:40 |
| raildo | haha | 18:40 |
| dolphm | \o/ | 18:41 |
| morganfainberg | since you've already set aside this time:) | 18:41 |
| morganfainberg | #endmeeting | 18:41 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:41 | |
| henrynash | ncie one! | 18:41 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Feb 10 18:41:07 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:41 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-02-10-18.00.html | 18:41 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: well played | 18:41 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-02-10-18.00.txt | 18:41 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2015/keystone.2015-02-10-18.00.log.html | 18:41 |
| morganfainberg | ^_^ | 18:41 |
| morganfainberg | look infra doesn't need to wait for us to clear out of the channel for a chance | 18:41 |
| morganfainberg | change* | 18:41 |
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| jeblair | what? we could have started EARLY? | 19:00 |
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| fungi | i already did | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | jeblair, ahaha | 19:00 |
| fungi | oh, you mean the meeting | 19:00 |
| fungi | ;) | 19:00 |
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| jeblair | #startmeeting infra | 19:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Feb 10 19:01:05 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:01 |
| mrmartin | o/ | 19:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:01 |
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| anteaya | present | 19:01 |
| gema | o/ | 19:01 |
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| jhesketh | Howdy | 19:01 |
| mrmartin | o/ | 19:01 |
| jeblair | #link agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 19:01 |
| krtaylor | o/ | 19:01 |
| neillc | o/ | 19:01 |
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| ianw | o/ | 19:01 |
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| pleia2 | o/ | 19:01 |
| jeblair | #link previous meeting http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-02-03-19.01.html | 19:01 |
| tchaypo | O/ | 19:01 |
| jeblair | #topic Actions from last meeting | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:01 | |
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| jeblair | pleia2 draft summary email about virtual sprints | 19:01 |
| nibalizer | o/ | 19:01 |
| jeblair | and she sent it too! | 19:02 |
| anteaya | I saw it | 19:02 |
| fungi | it was a great read | 19:02 |
| anteaya | it was very good | 19:02 |
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| jeblair | pleia2: thank you! | 19:02 |
| jhesketh | +1 | 19:02 |
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| pleia2 | ttx's respons was good too, these sprints are good for well-defined tasks | 19:02 |
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| anteaya | yes | 19:02 |
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| fungi | openstack needs more well-defined tasks | 19:02 |
| pleia2 | which I think some teams struggle with, I think the friday hack day at summit really helped us solidify some things | 19:02 |
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| anteaya | some teams struggle with them because it isn't until they all get in the same room they finally realize they agree | 19:03 |
| anteaya | when for 4 months they were convinced they didn't | 19:03 |
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| jeblair | #topic New infra-core team member | 19:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "New infra-core team member (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:04 | |
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| fungi | so much suspense | 19:04 |
| jeblair | pleia2 will find that she has some extra buttons in gerrit now :) | 19:04 |
| anteaya | woooo | 19:04 |
| anteaya | congratulations pleia2 | 19:04 |
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| pleia2 | thanks everyone! | 19:04 |
| krtaylor | congrats! | 19:04 |
| nibalizer | gratz! | 19:04 |
| pleia2 | I'll try not to break openstack | 19:04 |
| jeblair | pleia2: that part's covered | 19:05 |
| fungi | just fix whatever you break | 19:05 |
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| fungi | it's a good day if i don't fix more than i break | 19:05 |
| fungi | er, if i do | 19:05 |
| fungi | something | 19:05 |
| pleia2 | fungi: hehe, noted | 19:05 |
| mrmartin | :) | 19:05 |
| jhesketh | pleia2: congrats :-) | 19:05 |
| jeblair | pleia2: so now, you get to propose your own addition to infra-root by changing some stuff in puppet | 19:05 |
| jeblair | pleia2: and to be honest, i don't even know where that lives anymore | 19:05 |
| jeblair | pleia2: so good luck! :) | 19:06 |
| anteaya | hahaha | 19:06 |
| fungi | left as an exercise for the reader | 19:06 |
| pleia2 | fungi pointed me in the right direction earlier | 19:06 |
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| pleia2 | so I'll take care of that soon, thanks | 19:06 |
| jeblair | thank you! | 19:06 |
| mordred | o/ | 19:06 |
| jeblair | #topic Priority Efforts (Swift logs) | 19:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Swift logs) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:06 | |
| mordred | (sorry late) | 19:06 |
| timrc | o/ | 19:07 |
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| jhesketh | So logs are ticking along.. I think our current challenge is looking into why they take ~5-10min for devstack logs | 19:07 |
| jhesketh | it's most likely bandwidth | 19:07 |
| jhesketh | possibly when coming from hpcloud | 19:07 |
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| fungi | might be good to compare some samples between providers | 19:07 |
| jhesketh | but other than that, I think we can start to move some other jobs across | 19:08 |
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| jhesketh | especially ones with smaller log sets | 19:08 |
| anteaya | do we have any of those? | 19:08 |
| jeblair | but even when using scp, the data goes from node(hpcloud) -> jenkins master(rax) -> static.o.o(rax) | 19:08 |
| jhesketh | well smaller than devstack isn't hard as you don't have all the various service logs | 19:08 |
| anteaya | fair enough | 19:08 |
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| yolanda | hi | 19:09 |
| jhesketh | jeblair: to be honest, I haven't compared how long the scp takes | 19:09 |
| jhesketh | probably something worth poking at | 19:09 |
| jeblair | yeah | 19:09 |
| zaro | o/ | 19:09 |
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| jhesketh | so a couple of actions for me there (compare times + move more jobs over) | 19:09 |
| jeblair | #action jhesketh look into log copying times | 19:10 |
| jeblair | #action jhesketh move more jobs over | 19:10 |
| jhesketh | cheers :-) | 19:10 |
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| jeblair | jhesketh: are still doing scp + swift? | 19:10 |
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| jeblair | if so, are we ready to remove scp from any? | 19:10 |
| jhesketh | jeblair: for devstack, yes. I think it's only turned off for a set of project-config jobs | 19:10 |
| jeblair | okay, so we can probably keep doing that for a little bit until we're happy with the timing | 19:11 |
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| jhesketh | jeblair: I suspect so, but maybe we need to get somebody who works closely with devstack logs to do some user acceptability testing? | 19:11 |
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| jhesketh | (eg sdague or jogo) | 19:11 |
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| jeblair | jhesketh: aren't we doing swift-first already? | 19:12 |
| * sdague pops up? | 19:12 | |
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| jeblair | jhesketh: so, in other words, acceptance testing is already in progress? :) | 19:12 |
| jhesketh | jeblair: nope, disk-first | 19:12 |
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| jeblair | oooh | 19:12 |
| jeblair | ok | 19:12 |
| jhesketh | which is dictated by apache serving its indexes | 19:12 |
| jeblair | jhesketh: can you dig up a log set for sdague to look at? | 19:12 |
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| sdague | yep, happy to | 19:13 |
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| jeblair | #action sdague look at devstack swift logs for usability | 19:13 |
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| jeblair | jhesketh, sdague: thanks | 19:14 |
| jeblair | #topic Priority Efforts (Nodepool DIB) | 19:14 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts (Nodepool DIB) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:14 | |
| mordred | stabstabstab | 19:14 |
| mordred | SO | 19:14 |
| mordred | I now have ubuntu working | 19:14 |
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| mordred | am battling centos - not because we need centos - but because it's a thing we have in servers that uses systemd and I figure we should solve systemd before declaring victory | 19:15 |
| jhesketh | will do, thanks sdague | 19:15 |
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| mordred | although it turns out that centos7 has a) old version of systemd and b) not consistent systemd | 19:16 |
| * mordred cries | 19:16 | |
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| * greghaynes hands mordred a fedora | 19:16 | |
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| ianw | mordred: if you want to sync me up with some of the details later, i can help out | 19:17 |
| mordred | anywho - I'm expecting to have that all sorted today so that I can go back to making the nodepool patch | 19:17 |
| mordred | ianw: oooh | 19:17 |
| mordred | ianw: I will do that | 19:17 |
| mordred | ianw: I'm assuming you grok all the systemds | 19:17 |
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| fungi | i haven't set aside time to get very far with collapsing bare and devstack image types together nor job run-time database configuration so we can stop needing to have a dib solution for that part. hopefully later this week will be better than last was | 19:18 |
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| jeblair | #action mordred fix the systemd problem | 19:19 |
| anteaya | optimist | 19:19 |
| jeblair | (ha!) | 19:19 |
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| jeblair | #action fungi collapse image types | 19:19 |
| fungi | optimism all around! | 19:20 |
| jeblair | :) | 19:20 |
| jeblair | anything else nodepool dibby? | 19:20 |
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| mordred | uhm ... things that don't do DHCP are bonghits? | 19:20 |
| fungi | clarkb may have things, but he's occupied | 19:20 |
| clarkb | just my bugfix for image update change | 19:21 |
| jeblair | any reviews need attention? | 19:21 |
| clarkb | accomodates jeblairs image build fix | 19:21 |
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| ianw | there are still outstanding reviews for f21 image builds | 19:22 |
| ianw | https://review.openstack.org/140901 | 19:22 |
| ianw | https://review.openstack.org/138250 | 19:22 |
| ianw | both were going in but hit merge conficts | 19:22 |
| ianw | conflicts | 19:22 |
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| jeblair | clarkb: i'm not sure which you're talking about? | 19:23 |
| jeblair | oh | 19:23 |
| jeblair | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/151749/ | 19:23 |
| jeblair | that one? | 19:23 |
| jeblair | "Better image checking in update_image command" | 19:23 |
| clarkb | yes | 19:23 |
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| clarkb | tha ks | 19:23 |
| jeblair | asselin_: had a comment on that | 19:24 |
| jeblair | but yeah, we should take a look at that one | 19:24 |
| asselin_ | o/ | 19:24 |
| jeblair | #topic Priority Efforts ( Migration to Zanata ) | 19:24 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Priority Efforts ( Migration to Zanata ) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:24 | |
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| * anteaya admires asselin_'s useful reviews | 19:25 | |
| asselin_ | anteaya, thanks | 19:25 |
| pleia2 | so mrmartin has been helping me get my module into shape | 19:25 |
| pleia2 | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/147947/ | 19:26 |
| pleia2 | helping dependencies make more sense (depending on services vs files for installation) and doing tests in vagrant | 19:26 |
| mrmartin | needs some work on zanata puppet modules, I set this up in vagrant, and had some dep problems that pleia2 solved | 19:26 |
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| anteaya | pleia2: doing local testing in vagrant? | 19:27 |
| mrmartin | I allocate some time this week and try to find out why the wildfly zanata app deplyoment fails | 19:27 |
| pleia2 | anteaya: mrmartin is, I'm using some snapshotted VMs | 19:27 |
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| anteaya | why do you need vagrant if you are using vms? | 19:27 |
| pleia2 | anteaya: we're both testing in our own ways | 19:28 |
| anteaya | sorry if this was discussed before and I missed it in backscroll | 19:28 |
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| pleia2 | he's using vagrant, I'm using VMs | 19:28 |
| anteaya | oh sorry | 19:28 |
| mrmartin | double-check | 19:28 |
| mrmartin | :) | 19:28 |
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| mrmartin | vagrant launching vm(s) anyway. | 19:28 |
| jeblair | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/147947/ | 19:29 |
| pleia2 | so progress is being made, not as fast as I'd like, but java is clunky | 19:29 |
| jeblair | pleia2, mrmartin: groovy, thanks! | 19:29 |
| jeblair | #topic Upgrading Gerrit (zaro) | 19:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Upgrading Gerrit (zaro) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:30 | |
| zaro | ok. i think i have managed to fix the testing stack of review-dev, zuul-dev, and jenkins-dev | 19:30 |
| zaro | all things working now, so will be easier to test | 19:31 |
| zaro | review-dev.o.o is on trusty and on Gerrit 2.9.4 | 19:31 |
| clarkb | db is still a problem? | 19:31 |
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| zaro | So if anybody wants to test anything do it there. | 19:31 |
| zaro | clarkb: yes, the issue about db disconnect is still a aproblem. but it's also in prod | 19:31 |
| jeblair | zaro: did you find that we need 2.10 for wip plugin? | 19:32 |
| jeblair | well, at least, we can't prove that it isn't in prod | 19:32 |
| jeblair | and when we run all the same versions of things in dev, it happens | 19:32 |
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| jeblair | but of course the trove db server is actually different | 19:32 |
| zaro | jeblair: no, wip plugin will be a ways out. it needs fixes from master which won't show up unil 2.11 | 19:32 |
| fungi | right, zaro was able to reproduce the problem with the ubuntu and gerrit versions we're running in prod | 19:32 |
| zaro | unil/until | 19:32 |
| jeblair | #info WIP requires >= 2.11 | 19:33 |
| jeblair | #undo | 19:33 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Info object at 0x99d7590> | 19:33 |
| jeblair | #info WIP plugin requires >= 2.11 | 19:33 |
| fungi | clarkb: though it does seem suspiciously similar to the db problem we were seeing with paste.o.o | 19:33 |
| clarkb | fungi ya | 19:33 |
| clarkb | I think the trove dbs are partially to blame | 19:33 |
| * anteaya clicks the review-dev storyboard link in the commit message | 19:34 | |
| jeblair | i verified that the mysql timeout values are the default on the review-dev trove instance | 19:34 |
| jeblair | so it's at least not that kind of misconfiguration | 19:34 |
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| zaro | so i just finished validating zuul pipelines and the launchpad integration. | 19:34 |
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| zaro | will probably see if there's anything to check in Gerrit ACLs next. | 19:35 |
| anteaya | zaro I don't see the ability to change the topic in the gui | 19:35 |
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| jeblair | zaro: would you be willing to spend some time with the trove folks and see if there's something they can do? | 19:36 |
| zaro | jeblair: yes, most definatlye | 19:36 |
| fungi | anteaya: i thought we discovered that only change owners and gerrit admins could do in-ui topic edits? | 19:36 |
| zaro | i'll ask them to help debug | 19:36 |
| jeblair | zaro: cool, thanks | 19:36 |
| anteaya | fungi: perhaps I don't have the permissions then | 19:36 |
| mordred | iccha works on trove at rax now - might be a good contact too | 19:36 |
| zaro | anteaya: i don't think that's availabe in old screen UI, not even on review.o.o | 19:37 |
| anteaya | mordred: not any more | 19:37 |
| jeblair | #action zaro to chat with trove folks about review-dev db problems | 19:37 |
| mordred | anteaya: oh1 well, don't listen to me | 19:37 |
| anteaya | mordred: rax decided they can only work on trove in their own time | 19:37 |
| anteaya | mordred: so only when she has time after work now | 19:37 |
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| zaro | i'm going to test prod db migration next. | 19:38 |
| zaro | So about moving review.o.o to trusty? | 19:39 |
| zaro | anybody against that? if not should we schedule something? | 19:39 |
| anteaya | zaro: we need to do that to upgrade? | 19:39 |
| zaro | yes | 19:39 |
| clarkb | no opposition from me on that | 19:39 |
| jhesketh | sounds good to me | 19:39 |
| anteaya | I'm for scheduling something the week before summit like we did last year | 19:39 |
| anteaya | or will this be less involved? | 19:40 |
| zaro | anteaya: this is why #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/151368/ | 19:40 |
| jeblair | zaro: so you want to do os upgrade first, then gerrit upgrade? or both together? | 19:40 |
| anteaya | bouncy castle again | 19:40 |
| zaro | best to do OS upgrade first | 19:40 |
| jeblair | right, so we didn't get that far with this last week, but let's try again | 19:41 |
| jeblair | nothing before feb 28 | 19:41 |
| clarkb | I know one problem is every time we change IP corps need to update firewall rules | 19:41 |
| clarkb | we still cant floating ip in rax right? | 19:42 |
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| jeblair | how is feb 28, mar 7, mar 21? | 19:42 |
| jeblair | also, see: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Kilo_Release_Schedule | 19:42 |
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| anteaya | can I vote for may 7th? | 19:43 |
| clarkb | jeblair all should worj for me | 19:43 |
| pleia2 | I'm around all those days | 19:43 |
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| fungi | clarkb: that sounds to me like a reason to do this ~monthly | 19:44 |
| mordred | fungi: ++ | 19:44 |
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| mordred | maybe they'd learn that outbound blocking is crazypants | 19:44 |
| fungi | eventually they'll get tired of having to maintain special egress rules for that port | 19:44 |
| clarkb | ha | 19:44 |
| clarkb | and https does work fwiw | 19:44 |
| zaro | all are good with me as well. i'm partial to feb 28. | 19:44 |
| jeblair | to anteaya's point. do we want to wait until after the release? | 19:45 |
| clarkb | anteaya it should be very low impact | 19:45 |
| anteaya | should and is can be miles apart | 19:45 |
| clarkb | spin up new node side by side, easy switch, easy fallback | 19:45 |
| anteaya | if there is a compleling reason to do it before may I'm all ears | 19:45 |
| clarkb | anteaya well I have done this before and it was easy (lucid to precisr) | 19:45 |
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| anteaya | no blocking from corp firewalls? | 19:46 |
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| anteaya | no contributors unable to work? | 19:46 |
| anteaya | happy to be wrong | 19:46 |
| jeblair | anteaya: we will announce it well in advance, with the new ip. | 19:46 |
| clarkb | there will likely be blocking on port 29418 they can use httpa | 19:46 |
| clarkb | *https | 19:46 |
| anteaya | okay if I am in the minority so be it | 19:46 |
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| fungi | the biggest issue is probably going to be finding a slow enough week at this point in the cycle that having several hours of downtime won't severely impact development momentum so we can do the maintenance carefully and if necessary roll back | 19:46 |
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| anteaya | fungi: yes | 19:47 |
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| * krtaylor wonders if it will impact some third party ci systems | 19:47 | |
| jeblair | so this feb 28 is the saturday before feature proposal freeze. the week following is likely to be busy | 19:47 |
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| asselin_ | clarkb, zuul doesn't https | 19:48 |
| jeblair | i'm not certain that's a reason not to do it. | 19:48 |
| fungi | krtaylor: some may need a restart to reconnect to redo dns resolution and reconnect to the new ip address, yes | 19:48 |
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| * fungi had redundant words in that last sentence | 19:48 | |
| asselin_ | we'll need to have firewalls updated for thirdparty ci | 19:48 |
| krtaylor | possibly, yes | 19:49 |
| krtaylor | so we should spread the event happening far and wide | 19:49 |
| clarkb | asselin_ or use a proxy | 19:49 |
| krtaylor | and there will still be questions :) | 19:49 |
| jeblair | krtaylor: we always do :) | 19:49 |
| zaro | ohh, i forgot. the Toggle CI button doesn't work. is anyone willing to take a look at that? i've already took a quick look but i don't know js so it's not apparent to me how it even works. | 19:49 |
| mordred | jeblair: for sake of information - I believe last time we swapped it took between 1 and 2 months to get the egress rules changed at HP | 19:50 |
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| asselin_ | clarkb, not sure how. last time nothing worked for zuul. this was last summer. | 19:50 |
| jeblair | mordred: i hope it goes faster this time. | 19:50 |
| mordred | jeblair: I do not believe that's possible | 19:50 |
| asselin_ | mordred, and they fat-fingered the rule for my site, so it took even longer | 19:50 |
| fungi | asselin_: you'll only need firewalls updated if your firewalls are for some reason configured to block _outbound_ connections from your systems | 19:50 |
| mordred | jeblair: it's a change to global security rules which goes through an IT process | 19:50 |
| jeblair | to be clear, egress filtering is a bad idea. it's particularly bad for systems that rely on connecting to a system that runs in _a public cloud_ | 19:50 |
| mordred | yes. this is all true | 19:50 |
| asselin_ | fungi, yes, we're blocked on outbound :( | 19:51 |
| jeblair | so, i think what we can do is try to disseminate the information as soon as possible | 19:51 |
| mordred | I'm merely reporting on the state of the world for at least one of our constituencies | 19:51 |
| jeblair | mordred: thank you | 19:51 |
| mrmartin | keep the old instance and ip and redirect the traffic with haproxy to the new one | 19:51 |
| mrmartin | so don't need to change the ip | 19:51 |
| mrmartin | or you can keep it as a backup | 19:51 |
| jeblair | but we can not let this be a blocker | 19:51 |
| clarkb | asselin_: you would likely need to do a port fowrad through a SOCKS proxy | 19:52 |
| clarkb | asselin_: it should just work once you get it set up | 19:52 |
| krtaylor | jeblair, agreed, speaking for my system anyway, anytime is as bad as any other | 19:52 |
| jeblair | mrmartin: that may cause its own problems and greatly increase the complexity | 19:52 |
| clarkb | mrmartin: no then we still have an old precise box around | 19:52 |
| tchaypo | this is where we all talk about some kind of ha proxy as a service thingy | 19:52 |
| clarkb | and it increases the number of places where things can break as jeblair points out | 19:52 |
| fungi | mrmartin: if we do that, we'll either end up maintaining it indefinitely or ~50% of the people who are going to be impacted simply won't find out until we eventually take down the proxy | 19:52 |
| clarkb | tchaypo: if only such proxy services were configurable in ways that made them useful :) | 19:52 |
| mrmartin | ok, but you can give a 2 month grace period, and everybody can migrate | 19:53 |
| mrmartin | poor-man's floating ip | 19:53 |
| fungi | on the up side, it only increases places where things can break for people who are stuck behind egress filters managed by people who need far too long to update them | 19:54 |
| jeblair | so who's around on feb 28? | 19:54 |
| anteaya | I can be | 19:54 |
| clarkb | jeblair: me | 19:54 |
| mordred | I kinda think we should go the "wait longer" route so that we can spin up the new box and get the new IP info out to our various 3rd party testing folks and the corporations with idiotic network policies | 19:54 |
| zaro | jeblair: me | 19:54 |
| jeblair | mordred: i believe that we can do that by the end of this week and provide 2 weeks of notice. | 19:54 |
| mordred | ok. I think that we know fora fact that will break a large portion of our user base | 19:55 |
| tchaypo | how do we get the new ip? | 19:55 |
| fungi | i'm out of town from the 25th to the 6th but don't let my absence stop you | 19:55 |
| jeblair | tchaypo: we will send an email announcement | 19:55 |
| tchaypo | rephrase | 19:55 |
| jeblair | mordred: how much notice do you want to provide? | 19:55 |
| tchaypo | how does the infra team find out the new ip to put in the email? | 19:55 |
| mordred | I think 2 months is probably the amount of time HP and IBM and Cisco are all liekly to need | 19:55 |
| jeblair | tchaypo: we spin up the server | 19:55 |
| mrmartin | tchaypo: by starting the new server. | 19:56 |
| jeblair | mordred: that seems excessive | 19:56 |
| mordred | which is sad | 19:56 |
| mordred | and they should be ashamed | 19:56 |
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| krtaylor | not sure we'd need 2 months, but 2 weeks is tight also | 19:56 |
| mordred | but given the number of corporate contributors we have AND the number of 3rd party testing rigs taht exist - even though this is almost as broken as rackspace's not-dhcp - it is what it is | 19:56 |
| fungi | for third-party ci specifically i guess, since as clarkb points out everything besides stream-events should work fine via https api | 19:56 |
| mordred | fungi: yah - but 3rd party without streamevents is going to be kinda tough | 19:57 |
| fungi | yep | 19:57 |
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| anteaya | time check | 19:57 |
| mrmartin | ask.o.o | 19:57 |
| sdague | krtaylor: you need an egress change to connect to zuul? I was pretty sure the IBM corp network should just allow that | 19:57 |
| jeblair | that puts us at mordred: that puts us at march 21. | 19:57 |
| clarkb | fungi: ya https is how people are getting around china's great firewall now | 19:58 |
| jeblair | anteaya, mrmartin: i think we're going to have to defer | 19:58 |
| clarkb | fungi: so we know it works for the most part | 19:58 |
| asselin_ | I remember looking at the zuul code, and we may be about to update the socket it opents with a proxy configuration | 19:58 |
| anteaya | jeblair: looks like it | 19:58 |
| clarkb | asselin_: you just configure localhost:poxy_port as the gerrit location | 19:58 |
| mordred | jeblair: I'm around and available both days, fwiw | 19:58 |
| krtaylor | I agree with fungi 's assessment though, ~50 arent paying attention, 2 weeks should be enough to get the word out | 19:58 |
| mordred | and will help either day we choose | 19:58 |
| krtaylor | sdague, yes, no egress needed for us | 19:58 |
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| clarkb | we could also put gerrit ssh on port 22 | 19:59 |
| fungi | i am happy to spin up the new server as soon as this meeting ends if someone wants to work on drafting an announcement i can plug the ip addresses into | 19:59 |
| clarkb | but Ithink we should only do that if we can listen on 29418 as well | 19:59 |
| jeblair | asselin_: have you worked through this before? how long did it take? | 19:59 |
| krtaylor | fungi, will announce in third-party meetings | 20:00 |
| jeblair | okay, we'll continue this in the infra channel | 20:00 |
| jeblair | thanks all | 20:00 |
| jeblair | #endmeeting | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Feb 10 20:00:26 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:00 |
| asselin_ | jeblair, cody-somerville did the initial request. Once it was done, it took another month before it got fixed for my site | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-02-10-19.01.html | 20:00 |
| jhesketh | cheers! | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-02-10-19.01.txt | 20:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2015/infra.2015-02-10-19.01.log.html | 20:00 |
| fungi | clarkb: i have a feeling corps who are blocking egress are particularly blocking egress for 22/tcp. ssh out of your corporate castle is dangerous stuff after all | 20:00 |
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| mordred | fungi: nope | 20:00 |
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| mordred | fungi: outbound 22 is wide open :) | 20:00 |
| * fungi laughs | 20:00 | |
| mordred | yah | 20:00 |
| jeblair | then that makes even less sense | 20:00 |
| clarkb | fungi: yes its part of the ridiculous irony here | 20:00 |
| mordred | it's basically just idiots | 20:01 |
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| mordred | there is NO SENSE - it provides no value other than perpetuating inertia | 20:01 |
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| anteaya | inertia is power didn't you know | 20:01 |
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| * anteaya wonders where ttx is | 20:02 | |
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| ttx | Oh you finished | 20:02 |
| ttx | didn't notice it | 20:02 |
| anteaya | we did | 20:02 |
| reed | :) | 20:02 |
| ttx | Anyone here for the TC meeting ? | 20:02 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 20:02 |
| redrobot | o/ | 20:02 |
| mikal | I might come | 20:02 |
| annegentle | holla | 20:02 |
| ttx | was a bit busy with that L poll | 20:02 |
| markmcclain | o | 20:02 |
| markmcclain | o/ | 20:03 |
| anteaya | the first was like your head sticking up over a wall | 20:03 |
| ttx | russellb, jgriffith, mordred, devananda, vishy, jeblair, jaypipes, sdague : around ? | 20:03 |
| sdague | o/ | 20:03 |
| jeblair | o/ | 20:03 |
| markmcclain | anteaya: haha | 20:03 |
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| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Feb 10 20:03:37 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:03 |
| russellb | o/ | 20:03 |
| ttx | Our agenda for today: | 20:03 |
| * reed drumrolls | 20:03 | |
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| * sarob lurking | 20:03 | |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 20:03 |
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| ttx | #topic L naming results | 20:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "L naming results (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:04 | |
| * devananda lurks | 20:04 | |
| mordred | o/ | 20:04 |
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| ttx | I closed the poll a couple minutes ago | 20:04 |
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| ttx | It's a *very* close call between Lizard and Liberty. | 20:04 |
| ttx | So close I actually have to feed the ballots into a proper Condorcet poll to get the Condorcet winner | 20:04 |
| russellb | i'm surprised | 20:04 |
| russellb | i thought it'd be one of the other 2 | 20:04 |
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| markmcclain | yeah.. same | 20:04 |
| ttx | I guess I should ask... Condorcet sounds like a good way to tell the winner, right ? | 20:04 |
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| sdague | ttx: +1 | 20:05 |
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| mikal | Works for me | 20:05 |
| russellb | sure, why not | 20:05 |
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| anteaya | if you didn't like what survey monkey gave you | 20:05 |
| reed | unless the winner is liberty that way :) | 20:05 |
| annegentle | lol reed | 20:05 |
| ttx | Well, surveymonkey goves me a % of each ranking | 20:05 |
| ttx | which doesn't tell condorcet preference | 20:05 |
| anteaya | not very helpful | 20:05 |
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| ttx | OK, so the winner is: | 20:05 |
| sdague | I think the results of the poll are an indication that the TC's ideas on naming often veer wildly from what the community likes :) | 20:05 |
| ttx | #link http://civs.cs.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/results.pl?id=E_dc5ea66e94acc07a | 20:05 |
| ttx | sorry, anderstj | 20:06 |
| ttx | err anteaya | 20:06 |
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| jaypipes | poo. | 20:06 |
| anteaya | shows how much folks know about canada I guess | 20:06 |
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| * dhellmann returns all of the stuffed lizards he ordered online | 20:06 | |
| ttx | not my choice either | 20:06 |
| russellb | it'll do | 20:07 |
| anteaya | dhellmann: send them to me | 20:07 |
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| ttx | but then 1474 votes is also more than previous polls I think | 20:07 |
| * ttx checks | 20:07 | |
| ttx | yeah, 908 replies for K | 20:07 |
| jeblair | vote early, vote often | 20:07 |
| anteaya | apparently | 20:08 |
| ttx | and 748 for J | 20:08 |
| jbryce | well the community grows and people did sort of make a bigger deal out of this one so the increased visibility is not surprising | 20:08 |
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| ttx | Anyway, Liberty it is | 20:08 |
| ttx | I guess. | 20:08 |
| russellb | heh | 20:09 |
| sdague | weren't we previously concerned by low voter turn out? seems odd to complain about high turn out for this just because it's none of our first choices | 20:09 |
| * anteaya dons her green dress and looks for a crown and torch | 20:09 | |
| ttx | sdague: agreed | 20:09 |
| dhellmann | anteaya: I was going to exchange them for novelty handcuffs | 20:09 |
| jeblair | who's complaining? | 20:09 |
| ttx | #topic Project structure reform | 20:09 |
| anteaya | dhellmann: that's all you then | 20:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Project structure reform (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:09 | |
| anteaya | dhellmann: I'm out | 20:09 |
| sdague | jeblair: jaypipes said poo :) | 20:09 |
| jeblair | haha | 20:09 |
| dhellmann | anteaya: foam crowns? | 20:09 |
| russellb | nice | 20:09 |
| ttx | jeblair: I'm not. Can't win every time :) | 20:10 |
| anteaya | dhellmann: never tried them | 20:10 |
| ttx | * Adds service to indicate a user-readable and understandable name (https://review.openstack.org/150030) | 20:10 |
| ttx | So... This looks ready, i'll approve it when it reaches 7 YES (unless a -1 is posted that we should discuss) | 20:10 |
| ttx | one more needed | 20:10 |
| ttx | * Make oslo requirement more vague (https://review.openstack.org/152748) | 20:10 |
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| ttx | So I like that we speak in more general terms here | 20:10 |
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| ttx | that keeps a pretty subjective item on the list, but looks like we are ok with that | 20:11 |
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| russellb | it could mention oslo as a clear example, but whatever, it's fine | 20:11 |
| jeblair | it's in a "should" | 20:11 |
| jeblair | i think its main purpose is to communicate intent and desire anyway | 20:11 |
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| ttx | one more +1 needed and I'll approve it (starting tomorrow morning) | 20:12 |
| britthouser | Liberty Bell? | 20:12 |
| britthouser | too patriotic? | 20:12 |
| ttx | I'll take a picture while in PHL | 20:12 |
| ttx | * New project teams requests | 20:12 |
| ttx | OK, so with https://review.openstack.org/#/c/145740/14 merged last week we formally have migrated to the new world order | 20:13 |
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| ttx | even if we didn't really publicize it that much yet | 20:13 |
| ttx | I updated the wiki to match it and mention the new terminology and processes | 20:13 |
| russellb | though we haven't exactly clarified the bar for entry though right? | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | we stopped blogging about these meetings this cycle | 20:13 |
| ttx | So my question to you all is: are we ready to accept new project teams requests, starting now ? | 20:13 |
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| ttx | I was pinged by a few teams about when the new process would be open for applications | 20:13 |
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| russellb | oh nevermind | 20:14 |
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| ttx | Personally I think we can start getting applications, and refine the rules as we go | 20:14 |
| ttx | I tentatively described the new process at: | 20:14 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/NewProjectTeams | 20:14 |
| ttx | if you want to check it out. | 20:14 |
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| ttx | If we feel we are open for business, I can write a blogpost about the new world order (including the transition from Programs to Project Teams). | 20:15 |
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| russellb | don't want to put that process in governance repo? | 20:15 |
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| vishy | o/ sorry i’m late | 20:15 |
| anteaya | russellb: + | 20:15 |
| ttx | russellb: it's mostly a pointer to governance | 20:15 |
| ttx | replacing old wiki pages | 20:15 |
| sarob | if you want a test run, im happy to push the first patch | 20:15 |
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| ttx | Thoughts ? Too early ? Bring it on ? | 20:16 |
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| devananda | ttx: a trickle at first would be good to test the process, iterate to learn before the summit | 20:16 |
| markmcclain | how many folks have inquired…should we have a slow start to the process? | 20:16 |
| dhellmann | as long as we're clear that the process for evaluating proposals is still being worked out, and that may mean a lot of back-and-forth, I think having a few concrete requests would be a good thing | 20:16 |
| devananda | ttx: as I'm sure we'll have a lot of questions from folks by then | 20:16 |
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| ttx | markmcclain: the security group (ossg) asked | 20:16 |
| devananda | dhellmann: ++ | 20:17 |
| markmcclain | if we have 1-2 willing to work with us then I think it makes sense | 20:17 |
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| mikal | Agreed | 20:17 |
| ttx | + a few pings about "when" from a couple stackforge projects | 20:17 |
| sdague | personally, I'd like to get a bit more of the test / devstack unwind done with existing projects so new projects have a better pattern for integrating into those parts. But I won't hold if up if everyone else wants to move forward. | 20:18 |
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| ttx | we can build up a queue and I can mention in that blogpost that we are slowly ramping up | 20:18 |
| ttx | to set the right expectations delay-wise | 20:19 |
| fungi | ossg is probably an easy one to test the waters because it's less repo-oriented and more of a horizontal effort, but conversely that means it won't exercise much of the process which will be heavily used later | 20:19 |
| russellb | i'm fine with starting now, but i might not publicize it much just yet | 20:19 |
| annegentle | yeah set the timing expectations clearly | 20:19 |
| annegentle | and then it's fine to start | 20:19 |
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| ttx | russellb: not publicizing is a two-edged sword | 20:19 |
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| ttx | I haven't communicated more about it because i wanted to have that discussion with all of you before | 20:19 |
| ttx | but I think we should | 20:19 |
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| russellb | or could at least coordinate among ourselves which ones to review first to test the process | 20:20 |
| russellb | instead of thrashing around on 15 at once | 20:20 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I don't think it's fair to just allow projects that have asked ttx about it. We just need to make clear that we're going to review requests one at a time until we have the process down. | 20:20 |
| russellb | wfm | 20:20 |
| dhellmann | we can start with ossg and then review the others in the order they are submitted, for example | 20:20 |
| ttx | wfm too | 20:20 |
| jaypipes | wfm 3 | 20:20 |
| ttx | right, saying we won't process them in parallel | 20:20 |
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| ttx | bonus points to projects following the TC meeting | 20:21 |
| sdague | also, some might be much easier than others | 20:21 |
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| lsell | I think it would be helpful to lock down and communicate a few more details about the end state / vision / tagging system, etc. before accepting new projects. I think communicating in pieces and starting to accept applications may be confusing | 20:21 |
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| dhellmann | sdague: true, but maybe we should do a couple of hard ones early | 20:21 |
| sdague | I think the more a project needs resources or info from horizontal teams it's ok to delay | 20:21 |
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| sdague | dhellmann: yeh, my concern is hard ones are probably ones that horiz teams aren't quite ready for externalized support on | 20:22 |
| russellb | 564261 | 20:22 |
| dhellmann | sdague: sure, and that's good feedback and a reasonable outcome is to say "we're not ready to handle you yet" which signals to other projects in a similar state | 20:22 |
| ttx | someone turned russellb in a number station | 20:22 |
| russellb | damn yubikey :) | 20:22 |
| annegentle | are we going to overload our focus on tagging solutions though? | 20:22 |
| dhellmann | sdague: we don't have to *approve* the proposals, just review them | 20:22 |
| sdague | dhellmann: yep | 20:22 |
| ttx | annegentle: i don't think so | 20:23 |
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| annegentle | ttx: tell me more | 20:23 |
| sdague | I think as long as we're clear to folks that we need to unit test this process, so it maybe be slow to start, it's fine | 20:23 |
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| dhellmann | sdague: ++ | 20:23 |
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| annegentle | so is this gate opening act a way to get tags started? (perhaps I'm just missing something) | 20:23 |
| ttx | annegentle: like I said before, I expect most tags maintenance to be delegated. For example, once we define coordinated-release, compatible-release etc. tags I expect maintenance to be delegated to release management team | 20:24 |
| dhellmann | annegentle: we're just talking about new projects, right? I don't think we need tags for that | 20:24 |
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| russellb | project applications, right | 20:24 |
| russellb | to get on "the list" | 20:24 |
| dhellmann | russellb: that's The List (tm) | 20:24 |
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| russellb | got it :) | 20:24 |
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| ttx | anything more on that before we move on to future release naming process ? | 20:25 |
| annegentle | ok so this is for new projects, who are applying without knowing much more than "I want to be an OpenStack Project Team and we're done being a Workgroup" | 20:25 |
| ttx | annegentle: right | 20:26 |
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| ttx | I want my work to be recognized as a part of OpenStack | 20:26 |
| annegentle | okay | 20:26 |
| annegentle | ttx: oh one more thing | 20:26 |
| mordred | I want to recognize people's work | 20:26 |
| annegentle | sorry need to type faster. | 20:27 |
| ttx | now you sound like Columbo | 20:27 |
| annegentle | so they still need to meet the requirements from http://governance.openstack.org/reference/new-projects-requirements.html | 20:27 |
| ttx | annegentle: we may realize that this page is a bit too much geared toward projects -as -in - stackforge projects | 20:28 |
| ttx | and does not contain enough info for new horizontal teams like translations / OSSG | 20:28 |
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| ttx | but I'm fine with updating it as we go | 20:28 |
| annegentle | ok | 20:28 |
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| lsell | just to confirm, there will no longer be projects in incubation? | 20:29 |
| ttx | lsell: there already is no longer projects in incubation | 20:29 |
| ttx | there are just some projects still in a integrated-release. | 20:29 |
| ttx | and "other" projects | 20:29 |
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| ttx | and we'll split integrated-release into more meaningful and defined bits | 20:30 |
| ttx | like actually-released-together, actually-tested-together etc | 20:30 |
| annegentle | so that still has me worried | 20:30 |
| ttx | OK, let's move on... | 20:30 |
| russellb | it's going to get a lot more confusing :) | 20:30 |
| ttx | russellb: but more precise. | 20:31 |
| annegentle | the "gate opening prior to tag definition" :) | 20:31 |
| jbryce | as dhellmann pointed out, the post-meeting tc blogging has kind of slowed down and i think there’s still quite a bit of mass confusion out there about the current state of all of this. with 145740 getting merged, it’s probably a good time to try to communicate the purpose and state. especially if new projects are going to start through the process | 20:31 |
| mordred | russellb: nope. we're going to redefine confusing as not-confusing | 20:31 |
| russellb | hopefully we can mitigate that to some degree ... | 20:31 |
| russellb | mordred: oh, neat | 20:31 |
| ttx | annegentle: it's not very different from the previous situation | 20:31 |
| sarob | jbryce: +1 | 20:31 |
| ttx | #action ttx to write about the t | 20:32 |
| annegentle | ttx: yeah the previous wasn't a good world either, so looking for a way to take lessons learned | 20:32 |
| ttx | arr | 20:32 |
| annegentle | pirate! | 20:32 |
| * mordred wants to read the blog about the t | 20:32 | |
| ttx | #action ttx to write about the transition to project teams, with due setting of expectations on how fast we'll process applications | 20:32 |
| * jbryce wants to read the blog about the upper T | 20:32 | |
| ttx | ok, moving on | 20:32 |
| * sarob shiver me timbers upper T | 20:33 | |
| ttx | #topic M+ Release naming process | 20:33 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "M+ Release naming process (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:33 | |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/150604 | 20:33 |
| ttx | Since last week Lauren commented with suggestions. | 20:33 |
| ttx | Like I said last week, I share the concern with running a public poll with options we strike down after the vote | 20:33 |
| ttx | My strawman would be like this: the TC checks candidate names for validity against naming rules, then runs a quick Condorcet poll among TC members to grossly rank all the options | 20:33 |
| ttx | then a trademark search is run to select the first 10 valid names, and that's the options we present to the electorate. | 20:33 |
| mikal | I haven't voted on this revision because it happened while I was asleep | 20:34 |
| jeblair | i pushed up a new revision with the minor/consensus points addressed | 20:34 |
| ttx | jeblair: damn! | 20:34 |
| ttx | you and your weird timezone | 20:34 |
| jeblair | i did not make the changes you and lsell are suggesting | 20:34 |
| * ttx quickreads | 20:34 | |
| jeblair | i feel like that substantially alters the proposal from mordred | 20:35 |
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| jeblair | i think that's a legitimate/important choice to make | 20:35 |
| jeblair | but i favor the approach where we get the tc out of choosing as much as possible and let the whole community decide | 20:35 |
| david-lyle | does the foundation currently trademark the top four on the ballot before the vote? | 20:36 |
| jeblair | i recognize the difficulties posed by post-poll trademark vetting, but i think the benefits outweigh it, and it's worth a try | 20:36 |
| mordred | yeah - I'd also like to be out of that game - I think the most recent election shows that the TC's choice on this is not what the community chooses | 20:36 |
| jbryce | david-lyle: yes | 20:36 |
| ttx | jeblair: I see your point -- just wanted to present an alternative solution | 20:36 |
| mordred | as I think the TC would have chosen either Lizard or would have written in Lemming :) | 20:36 |
| david-lyle | a wide open list would be easy to block if trademarked after the fact | 20:36 |
| jbryce | david-lyle: to be clear, we don’t trademark them but we check their availability | 20:37 |
| mikal | Well, trade mark search, not trademark | 20:37 |
| mikal | Yes? | 20:37 |
| ttx | jeblair: the TC still accepts exceptions, which makes it pretty central to the game | 20:37 |
| mikal | Ahhh, yeah, that | 20:37 |
| mordred | ttx: sure - but only in an exception manner - not as arbiters of taste in general | 20:37 |
| jeblair | ttx: yeah. i think the revised rules are pretty generous and hopefully will reduce calls for exceptions. | 20:37 |
| mordred | also - the TC is the elected body of the ATCs - as was rightly pointed out, this is a decision that encompases more than just ATCs | 20:38 |
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| mordred | so while I think using the TC for exceptions is fine - it's really just that it's an easy and expedient way to do that which puts less people on the spot | 20:38 |
| mordred | given that we have weekly open meetings | 20:38 |
| mordred | but if the entire populace of our community can express an opinion here, that's pretty cool! | 20:39 |
| ttx | jeblair: how would you run it, though ? The results will be out. People will start using the names. Then we come back and say well... #5 is actually the right name ? | 20:39 |
| jeblair | occasionally we might be asked to make decisions that affect the whole community. hopefully we're up to that. :) | 20:39 |
| ttx | I just don't see how that can work :) | 20:39 |
| jeblair | some folks have been using "lemming" for months, but that doesn't make it the name. | 20:39 |
| ttx | jeblair: or would you use some secret platform and keep the results for yourself ? | 20:39 |
| jbryce | jeblair: pretty much all of your decisions affect the whole community… | 20:40 |
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| mordred | the name doesn't get encoded anywhere _REAL_ until the materials are printed for the Summit and then 6 months later until it's a stable branch | 20:40 |
| ttx | jeblair: *you* have been using it, maybe the TC was using it... But think about 1474 people using it | 20:40 |
| mordred | I'm pretty sure the foundation staff is not going to start printing code names until the trademark check is done | 20:40 |
| ttx | mordred: it appears in spec repos quite fast | 20:40 |
| mordred | ok. so we shame those people - no big deal | 20:41 |
| jbryce | the other thing to keep in mind is that trademark searches are not a binary yes/no answer. sometimes it can take days to more than a week to get an answer | 20:41 |
| jeblair | ttx: i don't think it's going to be a problem. and if it is, we could see about a platform that lets us delay publishing results. | 20:41 |
| mordred | if we do a vote and don't have an official answer for another 6 weeks I personally don't see that as a problem - but then I'm unreasonable | 20:41 |
| jbryce | and often the most popular names are usually the most likely to be already trademarked, so if we have to do that cycle a few times to get to the right one, it could easily be 2-3 weeks after the vote closed | 20:42 |
| mordred | ok | 20:42 |
| ttx | I guess i don't want to be *that* election official | 20:42 |
| morganfainberg | i only ask one thing, how does ubuntu handle this? they publish possible names waaay in advance - and seem to coalesce on a real name when it's official | 20:42 |
| mordred | morganfainberg: theya re chosen in secret by mark | 20:42 |
| ttx | morganfainberg: Mark Shuttleworth picks | 20:42 |
| ttx | no contest | 20:42 |
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| mikal | He also sometimes changes his mind later | 20:42 |
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| morganfainberg | sure. but the options are still published then mark picks something | 20:42 |
| mikal | And then they do a big renaming of things | 20:43 |
| ttx | morgabra: no | 20:43 |
| ttx | morganfainberg: of course not | 20:43 |
| reed | morganfainberg, they also put an adjective to the name, so I believe the chances that a trademark is registered on 2 words is much lower | 20:43 |
| morganfainberg | reed, ++ | 20:43 |
| ttx | morganfainberg: the options are not published | 20:43 |
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| jeblair | jbryce: you could still check the top N names, and be no worse off than today as far as investment in that process goes | 20:43 |
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| morganfainberg | ttx oh i thought they were. *shrug* | 20:43 |
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| jeblair | morganfainberg: i thought that too | 20:43 |
| jbryce | jeblair: i’m talking more about the concern of how long people are willing to wait after a vote to find the actual winner | 20:44 |
| david-lyle | the longer the wait, the more closed the system appears | 20:44 |
| mordred | jbryce: it can't be worse than waiting for months to have a vote in the first place and not knowing when that's goign to happen | 20:44 |
| morganfainberg | jbryce, i think a delay of "when we have an answer" is probably fine. | 20:44 |
| ttx | david-lyle: ++ | 20:44 |
| sdague | jbryce: I think if we get a couple of cycles in advance people won't car as much | 20:44 |
| sdague | like if we're doing the N naming now, and it takes 6 weeks from now to know, that's cool | 20:44 |
| morganfainberg | sdague, ++ | 20:44 |
| mordred | I think if there is a clear statement of "we did the vote, here are the prelim results - but guess what, we have to do legal trademark checks, so hang out for a sec" | 20:44 |
| jbryce | sdague: that would be nice | 20:44 |
| mordred | sdague: ++ | 20:44 |
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| ttx | jeblair, mordred: I just fear the system will appear even more arbitrary and closed than today | 20:45 |
| mordred | ttx: I don't see how that's possible | 20:45 |
| sdague | so I'd say that if we are moving to this, we make it a goal to have the next 3 releases named | 20:45 |
| ttx | jeblair, mordred: I take it you're fine with being the election officials for this one ? | 20:45 |
| mordred | it has a clear system for getting nominations | 20:45 |
| mordred | a clear system for voting on them | 20:45 |
| jbryce | ttx: also a good point. when we’ve had to deal with trademark names before, we always get accused of not trying hard enough | 20:45 |
| mordred | ttx: sure! | 20:45 |
| jeblair | sdague: oh, that's something we might still need to tweak in my patch. i think i have it limited so that we could do L now, but not N until after L is released (still before the L summit though). do folks want to push that back one more cycle? | 20:45 |
| jbryce | and the reality is that when you get into some of those discussions (like potential liability), you just can’t talk about that in an open forum | 20:45 |
| morganfainberg | sdague, i think being more than "next cycle" does really address that. | 20:46 |
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| ttx | jeblair: "as soon as we know officially where the next summit is" ? | 20:46 |
| morganfainberg | because then there is no rush to get results in a narrow window | 20:46 |
| jeblair | jbryce: i have full faith that the foundation is equipped to turn the vagaries of a tm search into a binary yes/no | 20:46 |
| mordred | ++ | 20:46 |
| ttx | jeblair: but then "the Foundation" is blamed for slashing favorites | 20:46 |
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| lsell | it just feels to me like we're jumping from one extreme to another without trying to make some modifications like putting more names on the ballot, getting more community input via other means before finalizing the ballot, being more transparent about which names do or do not have risk from a trademark perspective before we come up with the final roster, etc... | 20:46 |
| dhellmann | jeblair: I liked keeping that limited, so we wouldn't pick N until we start work on L | 20:47 |
| mordred | I think we're just trying to put a process in place that does not have arbitrary limitions | 20:47 |
| mordred | the ONLY limitations are if a trademark check comes back negative ex post facto | 20:47 |
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| mordred | which is completely fair game | 20:47 |
| mordred | and does not, to jbryce's point, need open discussion | 20:48 |
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| ttx | The other contentious point was marketing feedback | 20:48 |
| ttx | As far as marketing feedback goes, I think we can either add a "no disparaging or negative connotation" rule and have the TC judge that in phase 1 (with public input from marketing)... | 20:48 |
| ttx | ...or just flag options which trigger marketing concerns and let the electorate make the final call | 20:48 |
| ttx | I think the current proposal is the latter | 20:49 |
| jeblair | dhellmann: yes, i want _some_ time limit so that we don't just pick the next 100 names at once, but if it would improve things to know the name sooner than what i wrote (opening of development on previous release, which, to be fair, is much earlier than we have been doing), i'm open. | 20:49 |
| mordred | I think the electorate are smart people and trust their decision making ability | 20:49 |
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| sdague | personally, I don't really mind the current process. The only draw back I've seen with it is names coming too late, so we really do have long arc plans in some projects which we have to mark as "well, that's an L thing, and this is probably M, so that we can do the following in N" | 20:49 |
| dhellmann | jeblair: ++ | 20:49 |
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| mordred | I think if they are informed as to concerns, then their voting can be very robust | 20:49 |
| sdague | like cells v2 in nova had conversations that went like that | 20:49 |
| dhellmann | sdague: yeah, I'd love it if we had the M name by the L summit | 20:49 |
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| jeblair | dhellmann: cool, so that's the timetable i have in my proposal -- we would do M right after the L release. | 20:50 |
| ttx | we used to not even know wher ethe nest summit would be until the summit itself | 20:50 |
| ttx | next* | 20:50 |
| lsell | so in practice, how many names do you expect to see on the ballot? | 20:50 |
| jeblair | grr | 20:50 |
| mordred | 50? | 20:50 |
| jeblair | dhellmann: cool, so that's the timetable i have in my proposal -- we would do M right after the K release. | 20:50 |
| mordred | I believe the initial list for G was something like that size, wasn't it ttx? | 20:50 |
| dhellmann | jeblair: would that actually leave time for the trademark search before the L summit? | 20:50 |
| ttx | Well, the list for L was about 30 names yes | 20:51 |
| jeblair | dhellmann: i think there's like 3 weeks, so it sounds like it could go either way. also, foundation staff might be busy. :) | 20:51 |
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| dhellmann | jeblair: right, so maybe we actually need to run that sooner than your proposal | 20:51 |
| ttx | mordred: arguably one issue with the current system was that nobody added anything to that wiki page | 20:51 |
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| dhellmann | jeblair: if we double up this cycle, we can move to one poll per cycle after this one | 20:51 |
| dhellmann | jeblair: maybe between the 1 and 2 milestones? | 20:52 |
| mordred | ttx: ++ | 20:52 |
| jeblair | dhellmann: wfm | 20:52 |
| mordred | jeblair, dhellmann ++ | 20:52 |
| mikal | jeblair: I'd like to open L specs now, so having the next name mid-cycle would help | 20:52 |
| mikal | jeblair: now is a bit late for my needs | 20:52 |
| mordred | mikal: good point | 20:52 |
| ttx | OK, I guess we can do another round of comments on the review. If someone feels strongly that an alternate proposal is better, they should file it | 20:52 |
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| dhellmann | mikal: yeah, we'll be a little late this time but next cycle we should have the future names sooner | 20:53 |
| mikal | I want to do that as part of freezing new features for Kilo | 20:53 |
| morganfainberg | mikal, ++ | 20:53 |
| jeblair | mikal: even my current proposal would accomodate that; the proposed change would have you knowing M by this point. | 20:53 |
| ttx | jeblair: unless you intend to still tweak it ? | 20:53 |
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| mikal | jeblair: excellent | 20:53 |
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| ttx | I still have a couple points to cover on the agenda | 20:54 |
| jeblair | ttx: i think the only thing that might change is the timing; so maybe folks should review this, with particular attention to that | 20:54 |
| mordred | ttx: are any of the next points things that involve the color of sheds in which bikes are held? | 20:54 |
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| ttx | jeblair: right, so people wanting something else should file that something else rather than expect you change your proposal significantly at this point | 20:54 |
| jeblair | or do we want me to go ahead and back it off so that, if we were using it now, we would have just finished the "M" poll? | 20:54 |
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| jeblair | ttx: yes, i think any more substantial changes should be another proposal | 20:55 |
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| ttx | jeblair: frankly the timing is a non-issue, you could even remove it from the draft ("no later than" is plenty enough) | 20:55 |
| ttx | poll will happen when someone steps up to do it, like always | 20:55 |
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| ttx | Historically I realize I should have already done it and I start working on it | 20:56 |
| ttx | I expect the future officials to do the same | 20:56 |
| ttx | and ask the TC about if timing sounds right | 20:56 |
| jeblair | i'd like some guidance about timing in there | 20:56 |
| anteaya | ttx +1 for no later than | 20:56 |
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| ttx | ok moving on | 20:57 |
| ttx | #topic Other governance changes | 20:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Other governance changes (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:57 | |
| ttx | * Add Cinder's os-brick library to cinder (https://review.openstack.org/153673) | 20:57 |
| ttx | There is a comment from mikal on os-* names which sounds like a valid concern to me | 20:57 |
| mikal | I got talked around though | 20:57 |
| mikal | There being a pypi clash and all | 20:57 |
| ttx | don't want to go to an early rename | 20:57 |
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| mikal | I still don't love it though | 20:57 |
| dhellmann | The name 'brick' is taken, so do we want to recommend completely renaming it? | 20:58 |
| ttx | so let's wait a bit on this one and think it through | 20:58 |
| ttx | dhellmann: right,n that's what I meant | 20:58 |
| jeblair | yeah, 'os-' was not because we love having 'os-' in names, it was because "apply-config" was just really generic. | 20:58 |
| anteaya | I am not in favour of os-* names | 20:58 |
| ttx | The last 3 shall be approved tomorrow morning unless someone complains by then | 20:58 |
| jeblair | "brick" is not generic. it's just taken. :) | 20:58 |
| ttx | * Remove oslo.version from official projects (https://review.openstack.org/152654) | 20:58 |
| ttx | * Removes <service>-api repos from Documentation program (https://review.openstack.org/152140) | 20:58 |
| ttx | * Typo in Morgan's name and IRC nick (https://review.openstack.org/153213) | 20:58 |
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| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 20:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:58 | |
| mikal | I should -1 that last one and ask if Morgan can just change his name | 20:58 |
| sdague | can we all -1 https://review.openstack.org/153213 and make him change his name? | 20:59 |
| morganfainberg | mikal, hahah | 20:59 |
| mikal | sdague: nap! | 20:59 |
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| mikal | snap even | 20:59 |
| ttx | As promised I pushed the discussion on openstack-specs approval rules to -dev but only Morgain replied: | 20:59 |
| ttx | I prefer to just call him Morgain | 20:59 |
| jeblair | oh wait i didn't see that | 20:59 |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-January/055387.html | 20:59 |
| sdague | but, seriously, can we actually just merge changes like that | 20:59 |
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| ttx | sdague: ok ok ok | 20:59 |
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| ttx | I'm getting careful now, don't want other people saying I'm abusing my power | 21:00 |
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| ttx | On the abovementioned thread, I would appreciate more people chiming in so that we can make a final call on that, before we rubberstamp another spec | 21:00 |
| jeblair | ttx: will do | 21:00 |
| ttx | Anything else, anyone ? | 21:00 |
| jeblair | i have finally written up an analysis of our alternatives | 21:00 |
| jeblair | so i can reply to that thread with it | 21:00 |
| jeblair | i just did not see it in my ML reading | 21:00 |
| ttx | jeblair: ++ | 21:00 |
| jeblair | (skimming) | 21:01 |
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| ttx | which is why I mention it today | 21:01 |
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| jeblair | thank you muchly! | 21:01 |
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| * morganfainberg forgot i even responded to that thread | 21:01 | |
| ttx | ok, I think we are done | 21:01 |
| morganfainberg | i had to re-read my own response to see waht i said | 21:01 |
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| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Feb 10 21:01:39 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-02-10-20.03.html | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-02-10-20.03.txt | 21:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-02-10-20.03.log.html | 21:01 |
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| ttx | courtesy PTL ping: dhellmann, morganfainberg, notmyname, eglynn, nikhil_k, thingee, asalkeld, david-lyle, mestery, SlickNik, SergeyLukjanov, mikal: around ? | 21:02 |
| eglynn | o/ | 21:02 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 21:02 |
| asalkeld | o/ | 21:02 |
| david-lyle | o/ | 21:02 |
| mikal | Heya | 21:02 |
| jungleboyj | o/ | 21:02 |
| * morganfainberg hides under a rock. | 21:02 | |
| morganfainberg | o/ | 21:02 |
| *** wojdev has joined #openstack-meeting | 21:02 | |
| * redrobot lurks | 21:02 | |
| thingee | o/ | 21:02 |
| * notmyname is sortof here | 21:02 | |
| * devananda lurks | 21:03 | |
| ihrachyshka | o/ | 21:03 |
| ttx | #startmeeting crossproject | 21:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Feb 10 21:03:34 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:03 | |
| ttx | Our agenda for today: | 21:03 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'crossproject' | 21:03 |
| ttx | #link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting | 21:03 |
| ttx | #topic Status update on novanet2neutron | 21:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Status update on novanet2neutron (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:03 | |
| anteaya | o/ | 21:03 |
| anteaya | hi there | 21:03 |
| ttx | As promised we scheduled a status update to keep track of how that effort was doing | 21:03 |
| jokke_ | o/ | 21:04 |
| ttx | anteaya: floor is yours | 21:04 |
| anteaya | so we have been working hard and making some progress | 21:04 |
| anteaya | thanks | 21:04 |
| jungleboyj | Ok. | 21:04 |
| anteaya | we have meetings | 21:04 |
| anteaya | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Nova-nettoNeutronMigration | 21:04 |
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| anteaya | the logs are attached to that page | 21:04 |
| anteaya | we have merged part 1 of a two part neutron spec | 21:04 |
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| anteaya | the first part sets expectations for operators | 21:04 |
| anteaya | emagma is going to start work on docs to have something ready for sdague to present at the operators mid-cycle | 21:05 |
| * SergeyLukjanov is here, hotel wifi isn't working ;( | 21:05 | |
| sdague | anteaya: much appreciated | 21:05 |
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| anteaya | now we are working on the second part, which some folks have requested proof of concept code to evaluate | 21:05 |
| anteaya | we have a wip patch up for a db migration | 21:05 |
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| anteaya | #link https://review.openstack.org/148260 | 21:06 |
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| anteaya | our group thinks this can be tested by itself | 21:06 |
| anteaya | once we have a patchset that doesn't crash jlibosva and an op from yahoo will test | 21:06 |
| anteaya | we also have a wip patch up for a proxy: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/150490/ | 21:07 |
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| anteaya | which can use more eyes | 21:07 |
| anteaya | so right now | 21:07 |
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| anteaya | we are looking for someone to work on docs with emagma that can attend tuesday 0900 utc meetings | 21:07 |
| anteaya | since he can't | 21:07 |
| anteaya | and more reviewers | 21:07 |
| anteaya | comments? | 21:07 |
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| anteaya | did I lose the room? | 21:08 |
| mikal | I'm here | 21:08 |
| ttx | o/ | 21:08 |
| * morganfainberg is here | 21:08 | |
| anteaya | mikal: thanks | 21:08 |
| annegentle | we're listening | 21:08 |
| asalkeld | anteaya, lots to look at | 21:08 |
| anteaya | great okay so i'm done | 21:08 |
| anteaya | asalkeld: great | 21:08 |
| anteaya | unless there are comments or questions? | 21:09 |
| mikal | anteaya: have you identified any code which needs to land in nova? | 21:09 |
| bknudson | is the neutron-proxy something that's likely to get into nova? | 21:09 |
| anteaya | mikal: I have not yet seen any code changes that need to land in nova | 21:09 |
| mikal | anteaya: cool. please ping me if you do see any... | 21:09 |
| anteaya | if someone from the migration group is here and can correct me speak up | 21:09 |
| anteaya | mikal: thank you, will keep my eye out | 21:09 |
| ttx | sdague: I'll be at the ops midcycle too, can help in presenting if needed | 21:09 |
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| anteaya | bknudson: my udnerstanding is that no, it is a neutron thing that will be in neutron | 21:10 |
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| anteaya | ttx sdague and emagma the author of the docs says he also we be there | 21:10 |
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| anteaya | bknudson: I stand corrected | 21:10 |
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| anteaya | bknudson: this proxy patch is proposed against nova: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/150490/ | 21:10 |
| anteaya | mikal: ^^ I'm wrong | 21:11 |
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| mikal | anteaya: are you making it to the ops mid-cycle? | 21:11 |
| anteaya | the proxy patch has been proposed against nova | 21:11 |
| mikal | anteaya: that might be useful if you can | 21:11 |
| * mikal looks | 21:11 | |
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| anteaya | mikal: I am handing the torch, I'm mid-cycled out | 21:11 |
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| mikal | anteaya: fair enough | 21:11 |
| sdague | mikal: I volunteered to be proxy for this info | 21:11 |
| sdague | at the nova midcycle | 21:11 |
| anteaya | mikal: will do all prep work I am able to make this an effective experience | 21:12 |
| anteaya | but my cat needs me | 21:12 |
| markmcclain | there's a reasonable chance I'll be there as well | 21:12 |
| sdague | as long as the team keeps me informed enough | 21:12 |
| anteaya | markmcclain: good | 21:12 |
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| anteaya | sdague: more than you want hopefully | 21:12 |
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| sdague | :) | 21:12 |
| anteaya | anything more here? | 21:12 |
| anteaya | or can I give the floor back? | 21:12 |
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| ttx | taht sounds good to me | 21:13 |
| * anteaya yields the floor back to ttx | 21:13 | |
| ttx | great progress actually | 21:13 |
| anteaya | thanks | 21:13 |
| eglynn | hmmm, the "Sideways" test ... an interesting use of grenade | 21:13 |
| eglynn | neat :) | 21:13 |
| ttx | next topic... | 21:13 |
| ttx | #topic API_Working_Group update | 21:13 |
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| ttx | etoews is unfortunately unable to attend due to a scheduling conflict, so I'll paste his update here | 21:13 |
| ttx | #info WG has agreed to use 1 repo | 21:14 |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-January/055687.html | 21:14 |
| ttx | #info WG has agreed to use the api-wg repo | 21:14 |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-February/056227.html | 21:14 |
| ttx | #info Of course things can change in the future but, at this point in the API WG's life, we feel the above are the most appropriate. They were good suggestions that provoked some interesting discussion but we'll just have to be more diligent about engaging the CPLs | 21:14 |
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| ttx | much like kaufer did in: | 21:14 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/145579/ | 21:14 |
| ttx | That is all... Comments on that update ? | 21:14 |
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| jokke_ | thumbs up | 21:15 |
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| bknudson | looks like these are the docs: http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/api-wg/ | 21:15 |
| ttx | bknudson: yes | 21:15 |
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| ttx | #topic EOL stable/icehouse (a.k.a. "fixing stable branches for good") | 21:16 |
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| ttx | So there was a thread flagging the sad current state of stable branches and questioning our ability to support Icehouse for 6 more months | 21:16 |
| ttx | actually, more like 4 more | 21:16 |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-February/056366.html | 21:16 |
| morganfainberg | yeah those threads were kindof all over | 21:16 |
| ttx | Personally I think we are in a better shape than in recent years, thanks to the stable team restructure and the nomination of stable branch champions | 21:17 |
| ttx | But even if it's occuring less often, the branches still get broken, like today | 21:17 |
| ttx | One issue this thread revealed is the gap between the stable branch champions and the QA/Gate teams... In think those two groups should be working much more closely together | 21:17 |
| apevec | from https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/StableBranchRelease#Planned_stable.2Ficehouse_releases - 2014.1.5 - last planned, July 2015 | 21:17 |
| jokke_ | ttx: ++ | 21:17 |
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| ttx | Matt mentioned training more people to gate, I think those champions would be the first in line | 21:17 |
| ttx | s/would/should | 21:18 |
| ihrachyshka | ttx, we need better notifications + untangle stable branches from bleeding edge. and this is btw pretty unconnected to the whole EOL issue for icehouse, juno is as well affected. | 21:18 |
| ttx | sharing the same IRC channels and the same status etherpads would also help | 21:18 |
| jogo | so the disconnect seems to be no one from stable maint is proactively improving stable infra | 21:18 |
| sdague | might I suggest that being on #openstack-qa is a strongly recommended activity for stable branch folks | 21:18 |
| jogo | sdague: ++ | 21:18 |
| sdague | as this nearly always manifests as failing tempest tests | 21:18 |
| ihrachyshka | ttx, I was actually going to ask QA people to do some TOI for silly stable maintainers, cool | 21:18 |
| ttx | When we embarked on the 15-month support journey in Paris, that was with the promise that stable capping would solve all the illness in the world | 21:18 |
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| sdague | or other projects the qa team is typically responsible for | 21:19 |
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| jogo | TOI? | 21:19 |
| ttx | do we still think that stable capping would avoid 95% of the issues ? | 21:19 |
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| ihrachyshka | 'transfer of information' | 21:19 |
| dhellmann | ttx: it should still improve the situation, but is proving harder to implement than we thought -- and there's not currently an owner | 21:19 |
| ttx | If yes, I wondered if we should not hold a virtual sprint to make fast progress on that | 21:19 |
| jogo | ttx: honestly hard to tell. I hope capping non transient deps will help | 21:20 |
| morganfainberg | you're still going to get occasional breakage | 21:20 |
| dansmith | I think capping will help a lot | 21:20 |
| morganfainberg | but it should help a lot | 21:20 |
| ttx | since we can't seem to find an "owner" with the right skillset | 21:20 |
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| ttx | let's collectively fix that by working on it on the same day, rather than all in bits and pieces | 21:20 |
| dhellmann | ttx: a sprint makes sense; jogo how much more do you think there is to do to get juno caps in place? | 21:20 |
| ihrachyshka | I am open to join, but I'm not really into gate, so will be slow. jogo asked me to review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/147451/16 for the start, I'll start my day tomorrow with this one | 21:20 |
| ttx | (There are a lot of people involved, each with a piece of the puzzle, and we may benefit from having them all focused on the same issue on the same day) | 21:21 |
| jokke_ | At least the capping would keep the stable gates together when there is something released that is not backwards compatible | 21:21 |
| jogo | dhellmann: I *was* close until everything went kaboom | 21:21 |
| dhellmann | jogo: that's what I thought | 21:21 |
| ttx | the sprint can double as a good intro ion stable gate knowledge | 21:21 |
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| ihrachyshka | + for sprint and intro | 21:21 |
| jogo | ihrachyshka: that is the crux of the issue. "I am not really into gate" | 21:21 |
| sdague | ihrachyshka: so unless we're going to turn off tests for stable branch, it seems like being into the gate is kind of key requirement of stable folks | 21:21 |
| ttx | jogo: or do you think a sprint wouldn't help ? You were probably the closest to the end goal, so you probably know | 21:22 |
| apevec | sdague, could we also look at simplifying testing on stable: e.g. what do we gain with I->J grenade testing | 21:22 |
| jogo | there is no one in stable that is working on gating infra/testing harness etc | 21:22 |
| dhellmann | ihrachyshka: by "into" did you mean "interested in" or "already knowledgable about"? | 21:22 |
| ihrachyshka | sdague, I repeat: I relate to it and open for getting more involved (enough for stable stuff, don't ask me to go deeper) | 21:22 |
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| ihrachyshka | dhellmann, 2nd, sorry | 21:22 |
| dhellmann | apevec: that's the basic upgrade test, right? | 21:22 |
| jogo | ttx: a sprint for capping juno won't help IMHO. just have a few people follow that patch and related patches is enough | 21:22 |
| dhellmann | ihrachyshka: that's what I thought, but wanted to clarify :-) | 21:22 |
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| ttx | jogo: so maybe just a shared channel. #openstack-gate ? | 21:23 |
| apevec | dhellmann, yes, but pointless between stable branches | 21:23 |
| jogo | ttx: I prefer -qa | 21:23 |
| dhellmann | jogo: is there more work to change the test job implementations for installing tempest in a virtualenv, or other things like that? | 21:23 |
| jogo | we already are in there all the time anyway | 21:23 |
| ihrachyshka | yeah, grenade for I->J is not critical and its removal would benefit a lot, untangling branches when they start to fall apart | 21:23 |
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| dhellmann | apevec: isn't that how people upgrade? | 21:23 |
| jogo | dhellmann: 1 patch in the gate, at the top | 21:23 |
| dansmith | apevec: why is it pointless? | 21:23 |
| clarkb | grenade I->J is probably one of the more important tests | 21:24 |
| ttx | dhellmann: they arguably have already upgraded | 21:24 |
| dhellmann | jogo: cool, so maybe a sprint isn't needed | 21:24 |
| dhellmann | ttx: if I'm running stable I, and I want to upgrade, I would probably choose stable J, right? | 21:24 |
| clarkb | you are double checking backports dont break your ability to upgrade | 21:24 |
| morganfainberg | apevec, i don't see why that would be unimportant. we want to amke sure upgrades from i->j aren't broken | 21:24 |
| * dhellmann double checks his alphabet | 21:24 | |
| clarkb | which you want to do if on I | 21:24 |
| jogo | dhellmann: maybe a gate cruft crash course. on what the current state is and where we want it to go for stable | 21:24 |
| morganfainberg | clarkb, ++ | 21:24 |
| dhellmann | jogo: ++ | 21:24 |
| dhellmann | jogo: having a good doc about how the devstack gate job tools work would be useful too (that might exist already?) | 21:25 |
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| ttx | dhellmann: I would say that grenade is more useful to catch breaking changes in last stable -> master, than between stable -2 and stable -1 | 21:25 |
| jokke_ | dhellmann: ++ | 21:25 |
| jogo | dhellmann: so someone from stable maint can work on moving all stable branches to pinning all dependencies (including transitive). that is a passive effort | 21:25 |
| dhellmann | jogo: good idea | 21:25 |
| apevec | dansmith, pointless on current stable, it is important I->J worked at GA | 21:25 |
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| ttx | dhellmann: as in, I know it catched the first kind of issue on the past, not sure it ever caught such an issue in the latter | 21:25 |
| dhellmann | we should put a list of these things in an etherpad somewhere | 21:25 |
| jogo | dhellmann: hmm, I think there are a few docs not sure if there is any one. | 21:25 |
| sdague | apevec: only if we don't allow backports to J | 21:26 |
| ihrachyshka | ttx, +, we don't even consider patches for backport that are 'scary' or do db migrations or anything non obvious, so the chance smth slips in is negligible | 21:26 |
| ttx | dhellmann: so cost of maintenandce might outweigh benefits | 21:26 |
| dansmith | apevec: why? until I is EOL, we need to make sure i->J works, no? | 21:26 |
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| apevec | sdague, backports do not include db schema changes by default, and if they do they must be backward compatible | 21:26 |
| dansmith | apevec: what does that have to do with anything? | 21:26 |
| dansmith | apevec: grenade tests a whooole lot more than db upgrades | 21:26 |
| mtreinish | apevec: db migrations are not the only thing involved in an upgrade | 21:27 |
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| morganfainberg | i would be very hesitant to remove i->j genade | 21:27 |
| apevec | what else? config changes? also not allowed in backports | 21:27 |
| morganfainberg | i'd rather defer that until we have the other fixes in | 21:27 |
| apevec | stable updates must work w/o updates | 21:27 |
| apevec | i.e. yum update and all still works | 21:27 |
| morganfainberg | if the maintenance cost is still too high, we can look at removing it | 21:27 |
| jokke_ | apevec: that's exactly why those tests are important there | 21:28 |
| apevec | morganfainberg, looks like it is the main paint point afaict | 21:28 |
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| ihrachyshka | morganfainberg, we can start from pinning everything and see whether it makes us generally happy to maintain it as-is | 21:28 |
| apevec | ihrachyshka, ack | 21:28 |
| morganfainberg | ihrachyshka that is my point | 21:28 |
| dhellmann | ihrachyshka: cap, don't pin, to allow for point updates with bug fixes | 21:29 |
| dansmith | apevec: so you're saying it's not worth testing because the reviewers will make sure that the backports don't break anything? why do we test anything then? :) | 21:29 |
| morganfainberg | dhellmann, ++ | 21:29 |
| ihrachyshka | dhellmann, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/147451/16 actually pins | 21:29 |
| dhellmann | jogo: ^^ is experimental, right? | 21:29 |
| apevec | dansmith, ok, let's not send more time on this, was just an idea to float around :) | 21:29 |
| dansmith | apevec: alright :) | 21:29 |
| morganfainberg | but yes lets cap, we can evaluate the benefit of keeping grenade until after we do the stable cap | 21:29 |
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| jogo | dhellmann: well it doesn't work yet ... but its not experimental | 21:29 |
| ttx | So... how about we complete stable reqs capping, keep all hands on deck in #openstack-qa until that's achieved... and see how that flies. | 21:29 |
| ihrachyshka | what about support term? | 21:29 |
| dhellmann | jogo: it's not = though, it's ~= so those allow patch updates, right? | 21:30 |
| ttx | If it crashes again, we can look into more dramatic options like removing grenade between stables, or shortening support cycles | 21:30 |
| morganfainberg | ttx, ++ | 21:30 |
| jogo | dhellmann: yes | 21:30 |
| dhellmann | ttx: ++ | 21:30 |
| ihrachyshka | ack | 21:30 |
| jogo | well we just bounced the last fix from the gate https://review.openstack.org/#/c/154216/ | 21:30 |
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| ttx | More generally, stable branch chapions should get more education on gates (and anyone who wants to join them) | 21:30 |
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| jogo | Unable to compute factors p and q from exponent d. | 21:31 |
| ttx | jogo: sounds like bruteforcing RSA | 21:31 |
| mtreinish | oh, haven't seen that one in a while... | 21:31 |
| ihrachyshka | wow, sounds computer sciency | 21:31 |
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| bknudson | paramiko | 21:31 |
| ihrachyshka | ttx, so what's the plan to get us educated? | 21:31 |
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| jogo | so I see two action items from here | 21:32 |
| ttx | jogo, mtreinish: how does the shortterm plan I summarized work for you ? | 21:32 |
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| jogo | * get some stable maint people to step up and help with stable related tooling | 21:32 |
| jogo | * reevaluate 15 month support for Kilo | 21:32 |
| jogo | * oh and stable maint to use -qa | 21:33 |
| dhellmann | and set up that training | 21:33 |
| jogo | yes | 21:33 |
| dhellmann | who's going to do that? | 21:33 |
| ttx | I can take the reevaluate item | 21:33 |
| jogo | ttx: wait another few hours to unwedge stable/juno and be able to work on pinning juno reqs | 21:33 |
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| mtreinish | ttx: yeah, but I'm still extremely skeptical about 15months | 21:34 |
| jogo | dhellmann: training is the follow up to the first bullet point | 21:34 |
| jogo | mtreinish: me too | 21:34 |
| ttx | We need a wider discussion on how costly maintaining 3 branches for 3 months every 6 months is actually much more of a nightmare than 2 branches all the time | 21:34 |
| ihrachyshka | mtreinish, me too, supporting 3+ branches in parallel is hard and honestly pointless from my side | 21:34 |
| dhellmann | jogo: ok, but it would be good to know who is going to put together the training materials and docs | 21:34 |
| ttx | like... when branches are broken, how often is it branch-specific ? | 21:34 |
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| ttx | We could easily reduce to 12 months and avoid the 3 parallel | 21:35 |
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| ihrachyshka | ttx, maybe pinning up versions and recent untangling of tempest will make it effortless, we need some time and work to do before being sure | 21:35 |
| ttx | From a consumer standpoint it just feels weird to drop support at the release date without giving any time for the transition, hence the 15 months | 21:35 |
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| mtreinish | ttx: I would support that | 21:35 |
| lifeless | sorry if this is offtopicish, but do we do a postmortem [and then the remedial work to stop that class of failure occuring again in future, when we have one of these fails] ? | 21:35 |
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| morganfainberg | ttx, ++ i agree | 21:35 |
| jogo | ihrachyshka: don't forget maintaining tooling. that takes effort as it changes over time | 21:35 |
| lifeless | speaking to the cost | 21:36 |
| dhellmann | it would also be useful to know how the test job reconfiguration we've done affects how breaks in one branch impact other branches, esp. master | 21:36 |
| ttx | but if 3 branches is a lot more work than 2 (and I'm not convinced of that), then 12 months is definitelky an option | 21:36 |
| mtreinish | lifeless: yes, and everytime we start to go and fix it the same problem wedges us... | 21:36 |
| mtreinish | which is what is happening now | 21:36 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: most of the causes of the failures have been different instances of the same issue lately | 21:36 |
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| lifeless | ok, I'll dig into this with one of you after the meeting | 21:36 |
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| jogo | lifeless: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/wedged-stable-gate-feb-2015 should explain it | 21:36 |
| ihrachyshka | another stable-ish point I wanted to raise is lack of ACLs for stable-maint to actually merge stuff | 21:37 |
| jogo | or at least some of it | 21:37 |
| ihrachyshka | no devstack, no tempest, no requirements/master | 21:37 |
| * ttx joins #openstack-qa to help where I can | 21:37 | |
| ihrachyshka | no grenade either | 21:37 |
| dhellmann | ihrachyshka: that will come naturally when it's clear that the people doing the work have the right backgrounds in those areas, no? | 21:37 |
| jogo | ihrachyshka: yeah that is a fair point. This a bit of a chicken and egg issue though | 21:37 |
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| * jogo wonders who else here is an active stable maint member? | 21:38 | |
| dhellmann | in the mean time, there are people able to do the needed reviews | 21:38 |
| morganfainberg | ihrachyshka if "you aren't really into gate" i'd say the transfer of knowledge needs to come first on those fronts | 21:38 |
| ihrachyshka | dhellmann, I think we should trust people not to merge unreasonable stuff even while they catch up. | 21:38 |
| thingee | jogo: o/ | 21:38 |
| ttx | ihrachyshka: also if there is more communication, +2 is not really that needed | 21:38 |
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| ihrachyshka | morganfainberg, grenade - maybe, but devstack or requirements? | 21:38 |
| sdague | I don't see stable folks reviewing devstack or grenade? Honestly, I fast approve fixes there when needed | 21:38 |
| ttx | it's blocking you currently because we don't communicate that much between groups | 21:38 |
| mtreinish | sdague: +1 | 21:39 |
| morganfainberg | sdague, +1 | 21:39 |
| ihrachyshka | ttx, afaik most of +2 owners are not in my or apevec timezone | 21:39 |
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| jogo | sdague: well we need to get out of the putting out fire mode and get in front of the issues | 21:39 |
| jogo | but we are trying to do that now (pinning deps etc.) | 21:39 |
| ttx | ihrachyshka: that's a fair point, TZ doesn't help | 21:39 |
| sdague | jogo: oh, agreed as well | 21:39 |
| ttx | part of "not communicating" is due to not being oon the same TZ at all | 21:39 |
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| ttx | not just us being dense | 21:39 |
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| sdague | well we do have a devstack +2 in .eu with chmouel, so he should be reachable then | 21:40 |
| jogo | if stable maint wants to help put out fires, they need people available at all times. | 21:40 |
| ttx | jogo: stable-maint is a bit more diffuse now, we have project specific teams and stable-maint-core to bind them all | 21:40 |
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| jogo | so stable-maint-core needs good timezone coverage | 21:40 |
| chmouel | yep! | 21:41 |
| ttx | so hard to tell. From -core, apevec, ihrachyshka are here | 21:41 |
| ihrachyshka | jogo, wanna relocate me? :D | 21:41 |
| jogo | ihrachyshka: talk to mordred | 21:41 |
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| ttx | we migth want other -core to step up as well | 21:41 |
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| ttx | ok, I think we need to move on | 21:41 |
| * mtreinish wonders where adam_g is | 21:41 | |
| ttx | we seem to have a path forward | 21:41 |
| jogo | ttx: yeah, not enough people involved is sorta the issue | 21:41 |
| jokke_ | I think we need some coverage matrix from stable maint, devstack, etc. Just to see whom you can expect responding and when | 21:41 |
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| dhellmann | we deal with the TZ issue for reviews in other parts of the project. If we can get to the point where having one stable branch broken doesn't also break master, the urgency to get fixes merged within minutes or hours should go away and we can deal with this more calmly. | 21:42 |
| jogo | still waiting for stable maint to sign up to help | 21:42 |
| jogo | dhellmann: ++ | 21:42 |
| ttx | ok, let's move on | 21:42 |
| ihrachyshka | dhellmann, ++ | 21:42 |
| mtreinish | dhellmann: that's only on some projects though. Tempest has to gate on all the stable branches too | 21:42 |
| ihrachyshka | jogo, I already stepped up to look into tooling | 21:42 |
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| ttx | ihrachyshka: I think jogo meant "the other members". Obviously you and alan are here :) | 21:43 |
| apevec | mtreinish, adam_g is US west coast afaik | 21:43 |
| ttx | but there are 6 people in that team | 21:43 |
| dhellmann | mtreinish: we should think more about that, maybe when a branch is broken we disable those tests | 21:43 |
| sdague | so that's a good reason to be in #openstack-qa, because for 3 of those 4 projects approvers are there | 21:43 |
| dhellmann | sdague: ++ | 21:43 |
| mtreinish | dhellmann: then we just open ourselves to breaking it more | 21:44 |
| jogo | ttx: yup, 2 is a good start but not sure if its enough | 21:44 |
| dhellmann | mtreinish: tradeoffs | 21:44 |
| jokke_ | is it easy to drop those tests to non-voting temporarily? | 21:44 |
| ttx | jogo: I can takle the action to explain that stable-maint-core is not just to fasttrack backports in all projects | 21:44 |
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| ttx | #action ttx to ask stable-maint-core to get incolved in stable gate maint | 21:44 |
| sdague | and if we need to grow review teams we should also talk about that as well | 21:44 |
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| mtreinish | dhellmann: heh, fair enough | 21:45 |
| jogo | ttx: thanks. And I will send out a follow up to arrange for a time to do a knowledge transfer | 21:45 |
| ttx | alright, really moving on now | 21:45 |
| ttx | #topic openstack-specs discussion | 21:45 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "openstack-specs discussion (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 21:45 | |
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| ttx | * CLI Sorting Argument Guidelines (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/145544/) | 21:45 |
| ttx | This one looks ready to move to TC rubberstamping. | 21:45 |
| ttx | All affected PTLs +1ed it (nikhil +1es an earlier patchset) | 21:45 |
| ttx | objections? | 21:46 |
| ttx | #action ttx to add https://review.openstack.org/#/c/145544/ to next week TC agenda | 21:46 |
| ttx | * Add TRACE definition to log guidelines (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/145245/) | 21:46 |
| ttx | Looks like this one may need one more draft before lining up the +1s, but only to fix nits | 21:46 |
| ttx | So it's really close to rubberstamping | 21:47 |
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| sdague | would be good to get the PTL content votes in there, then we can do a final typo scrub | 21:47 |
| ttx | review it now or forever hold your peace | 21:47 |
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| ttx | * Cross-Project spec to eliminate SQL Schema Downgrades (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/152337/) | 21:47 |
| ttx | This one is the result of http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-January/055586.html | 21:47 |
| dansmith | omg really? | 21:47 |
| ttx | really wat | 21:48 |
| dansmith | really going to ban sql downgrades | 21:48 |
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| ttx | ban might be a bit string | 21:48 |
| ttx | ong | 21:48 |
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| ttx | But agree this one needs a lot of PTLs attention, since so many projects currently provide downgrade | 21:48 |
| ttx | Also needs some operators feedback. The thread for that is there: | 21:48 |
| dansmith | I'm just so in favor of making the downgrade method print "Seriously?" | 21:48 |
| bknudson | grenade tests downgrade? | 21:48 |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-operators/2015-January/006082.html | 21:48 |
| mtreinish | bknudson: no | 21:49 |
| sdague | bknudson: nothing tests downgrades | 21:49 |
| ttx | AFAICT general feedback from -operators is that nobody relies on downgrades | 21:49 |
| morganfainberg | dansmith, that's mostly what will happen. | 21:49 |
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| sdague | the closest we have is unit tests that try to downgrade an empty database | 21:49 |
| ttx | which is kind of making the point | 21:49 |
| Rockyg | thank you sdague you said it shorter than I would have | 21:49 |
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| dansmith | morganfainberg: can't wait :) | 21:49 |
| morganfainberg | dansmith, "Seriously!? sys.exit() | 21:49 |
| morganfainberg | ;) | 21:49 |
| dansmith | morganfainberg: or "Your license to run openstack has just been revoked. kthx" | 21:50 |
| morganfainberg | dansmith, AHAahaha | 21:50 |
| ttx | "Nice try. Try restoriung from backup instead" | 21:50 |
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| mikal | ttx: restoring from backup doesn't work either though | 21:51 |
| Rockyg | You have entered the land of know return. | 21:51 |
| ttx | anyway, if you want it to happen, talk your fellow cores and local PTL into reviewing that one | 21:51 |
| bknudson | looks like it'll be oslo.db that will reject the downgrade, so that should make it consistent. | 21:51 |
| mikal | I think the spec is currently overly simplistic | 21:51 |
| Rockyg | no | 21:51 |
| dhellmann | http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/59033410.jpg | 21:51 |
| mikal | I think a lot of operators also _think_ that downgrades work | 21:51 |
| mikal | So we're trying to solve an education problem with a policy | 21:52 |
| dansmith | dhellmann: perfect | 21:52 |
| mikal | Which seems odd to me | 21:52 |
| sdague | mikal: really? because that's not what I've heard at any summit | 21:52 |
| morganfainberg | mikal, i'd like to get more insight into the realities of downgrades on the spec, - because downgrades don't really work. | 21:52 |
| Rockyg | Only operators with no db experience | 21:52 |
| ttx | sdague: nor on that -operators thread for the matter | 21:52 |
| morganfainberg | mikal, even if people think they do | 21:52 |
| mikal | sdague: my recollection of the ops meetup last time was there was surprise | 21:52 |
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| Rockyg | Let's query the operators at the midcycle | 21:52 |
| morganfainberg | Rockyg, ++ | 21:52 |
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| morganfainberg | Rockyg, please do! | 21:52 |
| morganfainberg | i'd love that feedback | 21:52 |
| mikal | I'm not saying downgrades are great, but I am saying that dropping them doesn't solve our actual problem | 21:53 |
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| jogo | even of some people are using it, I like the idea deprecating with scary warnings first | 21:53 |
| bknudson | if operators need it then we'd add an anti-grenade test? | 21:53 |
| dhellmann | mikal: your case where the APIs are left up and continuing to allow changes during the upgrade is valid, but I'm not sure we can code around that. | 21:53 |
| dansmith | mikal: it solves the problem of not spending time on them and still having them not work :) | 21:53 |
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| sdague | mikal: I wasn't at the last ops meetup, but at the ops tracks at the last 2 summits that wasn't the vibe I got | 21:53 |
| Rockyg | No. convincing developers that willy-nilly changing the schemas is what has to happen | 21:53 |
| morganfainberg | mikal, well it does solve *a* problem. we support it and it could irrevocably destroy someone's install | 21:53 |
| Rockyg | Sorry that it's bad to change them willy-nilly | 21:53 |
| mikal | dhellmann: well, what worries me is it might take the operator some time to realize they need to roll back | 21:54 |
| morganfainberg | mikal, and there is very very little use/testing of the edge cases with them / any cases | 21:54 |
| dhellmann | mikal: fair | 21:54 |
| mikal | dhellmann: i.e. shut apis down, do upgrade, test and thing everything is ok, turn stuff back on, run for a while, realize they're screwed | 21:54 |
| lifeless | mikal: so if dropping the downgrade doesn't solve our problem, what do you think the actual problem is ? | 21:54 |
| mikal | I think the spec needs to explore the state change issue more | 21:55 |
| morganfainberg | i've never heard of a single operator actually using a downgrade in production / real deployment. please lets find thos operators | 21:55 |
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| mikal | And we need to have an alternative path proposed | 21:55 |
| dhellmann | it would definitely be useful to have a recommendation for dealing with this case | 21:55 |
| morganfainberg | mikal, if something is that broken that justifies a rollback, do you really trust the data from the new code? | 21:55 |
| mikal | morganfainberg: I've certainly met operators who have had to do manual db cleanups post upgrade | 21:55 |
| mikal | But that's rolling forward, which I think is reasonable | 21:56 |
| jokke_ | morganfainberg: and educate them using testing + production? | 21:56 |
| morganfainberg | mikal, that is a different thing. | 21:56 |
| dansmith | since downgrade doesn't work today, removing them doesn't seem to change where we are, and improve it if anything. Then we can talk about other strategies, right? | 21:56 |
| mikal | dansmith: that's true | 21:56 |
| mikal | But think like an operator... | 21:56 |
| sdague | yeh, I'm with dansmith on this. The current path is so massively untested, and not really right | 21:56 |
| morganfainberg | dansmith, it does lighten our test load and prevents irrivocable harm. | 21:56 |
| dansmith | it's actually worse than downgrade being a no-op | 21:56 |
| mikal | If we throw away rollbacks (which I am ok with), we also need to provide clear guidance on what to do when you experience a problem | 21:56 |
| sdague | so it's like saying the first time you're going to test your HA env is when you get a blackout | 21:57 |
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| dansmith | er, I mean downgrade being a no-op is safer | 21:57 |
| mikal | I want to see that discussion happening now so that we actually do that bit | 21:57 |
| lifeless | it sounds like we're saying that we don't provide guidance now, and that we need to. | 21:57 |
| morganfainberg | mikal, sure. this is why the spec and threads are posted :) | 21:57 |
| lifeless | but AIUI we already do provide guidance - we say to backup the system | 21:57 |
| mikal | lifeless: backups don't work either | 21:57 |
| ttx | sdague: right, I fail to see how preventing them from shooting themselves in the foot would be a bad idea. That doesn't mean we shouldn't work on educating them about safer weapons, tbut that feels like an orthogonal thing | 21:57 |
| dansmith | ttx: exactly | 21:57 |
| lifeless | mikal: I recognise that | 21:57 |
| morganfainberg | providing the right guidance is part of the spec. but claiming we support something that we shouldn't should be addressed. | 21:57 |
| sdague | ttx: yes, I agree | 21:58 |
| Rockyg | Sounds like we should have a session at the midcycle + on the operators list | 21:58 |
| mikal | So, my problem is that the spec doesn't present a workable alternative | 21:58 |
| morganfainberg | ttx, ++ | 21:58 |
| dhellmann | mikal: ++ | 21:58 |
| mikal | I'm not trying to be difficult | 21:58 |
| mikal | I feel I am explaining this poorly | 21:58 |
| morganfainberg | mikal, i'm not sure what the alternative would be. | 21:58 |
| sdague | mikal: so until we have a robust rollback, we should leave code in that probably destroys their environment? | 21:58 |
| morganfainberg | or how you'd tool that | 21:58 |
| mikal | I want to use the desire to drop rollbacks as a lever to provide a better long term solution | 21:58 |
| sdague | that... seems suboptimal | 21:58 |
| dansmith | why does a workable alternative have to be a prereq for removing something that actively does harm? | 21:58 |
| lifeless | this is our current guide - http://docs.openstack.org/openstack-ops/content/ops_upgrades-roll-back.html | 21:58 |
| jogo | dansmith: when you put it that way | 21:59 |
| dhellmann | sdague: no, not until we implement that, but until we actually provide guidance to operators who thought rollback might have been what they would use | 21:59 |
| mikal | dansmith: because we haven't solved this problem for several years, and this is how I force people to think it through | 21:59 |
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| ttx | I think mikal can take an action to phrase his objection in a clearer manner on that spec | 21:59 |
| ttx | we need to close this meeting | 21:59 |
| dansmith | mikal: by holding other people's data hostage? :) | 21:59 |
| sdague | dhellmann: like http://docs.openstack.org/openstack-ops/content/ops_upgrades-roll-back.html ? | 21:59 |
| ttx | So we don't have time anymore for the last one: | 21:59 |
| mikal | dansmith: be nice | 21:59 |
| ttx | * Testing guidelines (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/150653/) | 21:59 |
| sdague | thanks lifeless for the link :) | 21:59 |
| mikal | dansmith: we've had that data lock in a basement for ages | 21:59 |
| ttx | Please read it and provide feedback on it, it's a pretty fundamental piece | 21:59 |
| mikal | dansmith: I'm told it likes it there | 21:59 |
| dhellmann | sdague: maybe? | 21:59 |
| dansmith | mikal: hah | 22:00 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion & announcements | 22:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion & announcements (Meeting topic: crossproject)" | 22:00 | |
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| ttx | Will just paste the 1:1 syncs log, focused on the early kilo-3 plans | 22:00 |
| ttx | Logs at: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ptl_sync/2015/ptl_sync.2015-02-10-09.22.html | 22:00 |
| ttx | We'll skip 1:1s next week. | 22:00 |
| ttx | quick last words before I endmeeting? | 22:00 |
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| ttx | Sounds like a no | 22:01 |
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| ttx | #endmeeting | 22:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 22:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Feb 10 22:01:40 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 22:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-02-10-21.03.html | 22:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-02-10-21.03.txt | 22:01 |
| jokke_ | thnx all | 22:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-02-10-21.03.log.html | 22:01 |
| ttx | Thanks everyone | 22:01 |
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