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| yamahata | hello | 05:01 |
|---|---|---|
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| s3wong | hello | 05:02 |
| yisun | hello | 05:03 |
| yamahata | #startmeeting servicevm-device-manager | 05:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 1 05:03:13 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is yamahata. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 05:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 05:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)" | 05:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'servicevm_device_manager' | 05:03 |
| yamahata | Is bob here? | 05:03 |
| yamahata | Let's give him a minute | 05:03 |
| s3wong | yamahata: doesn't look like he is online | 05:03 |
| yamahata | Oops. | 05:04 |
| yamahata | This week natarajk is also absent. | 05:04 |
| yamahata | He'll catch up with the log | 05:05 |
| yamahata | Okay let's start anyway. | 05:05 |
| yamahata | #topic Announcement | 05:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcement (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)" | 05:06 | |
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| yamahata | The starckforge repo for servicevm has been created. | 05:06 |
| yamahata | Thus gerrit review system can be used for our review. | 05:06 |
| yamahata | #link http://git.openstack.org/cgit/stackforge/tacker/ tacker repo | 05:07 |
| yamahata | #link http://git.openstack.org/cgit/stackforge/tacker-specs/ tacker-specs repo | 05:07 |
| yamahata | #link http://git.openstack.org/cgit/stackforge/python-tackerclient/ python-tackerclient repo | 05:07 |
| yamahata | So the group in gerrit system is also created. Please let me know privately your account name/email address to add tacker-core tacker-specs-core | 05:08 |
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| s3wong | yamahata: OK | 05:09 |
| yamahata | #action candidate for core please let me know privately your account/mail address of gerrit. | 05:09 |
| yamahata | #action yamahata add core members to gerrit system | 05:09 |
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| yamahata | Now I've created a sort of working tacker server/client in github. | 05:10 |
| s3wong | yamahata: I think bobmel could be Bob | 05:10 |
| yamahata | #action yamahata push the current code to review system. | 05:10 |
| yamahata | oh. | 05:10 |
| bobmel | Hi all. This is Bob. | 05:10 |
| yamahata | bobmel: Hi. glad to see you. | 05:10 |
| s3wong | bobmel: how many handles do you have :-) ? | 05:11 |
| bobmel | s3wong: too many... :-) | 05:11 |
| yamahata | bobmel: could you please let me know privately your account/email address of the gerrit system later. | 05:12 |
| bobmel | yamahata: Sure | 05:12 |
| yamahata | The a sort of working code is based on Neutron. So the it includes "uninteresting" code. | 05:12 |
| yamahata | I think we can merge those patches at first. | 05:13 |
| yamahata | For example deleting unnecessary Neutron specific files. | 05:13 |
| yamahata | renaming neutron -> tacker | 05:13 |
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| yamahata | After merging tedious patches, we can start actual api discussion and patch review. | 05:14 |
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| yamahata | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/103724/ API review patch | 05:14 |
| s3wong | yamahata: bobmel: have you guys thought about merging your pieces (serviceVM lifecycle mgmt / mgmt interface & device manager) together? Is that one of the goals? | 05:15 |
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| yamahata | s3wong: the current goal is to reach consensus with API, then consolidate the existing three or four implementations. | 05:16 |
| s3wong | yamahata: OK | 05:17 |
| bobmel | s3wong, yamahata: Yes that makes sense. | 05:17 |
| yamahata | I think bobmem and I have close idea for API. So minor adjustment would suffice. | 05:18 |
| yamahata | But I had a looked at DNRM document, their api is a different. So we needs discussion. | 05:19 |
| yamahata | Unfortunately today we don't have Karthik. | 05:19 |
| s3wong | the interceptor component probably won't have too many fans in Neutron community | 05:19 |
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| yamahata | s3wong: agree. | 05:20 |
| yamahata | DNRM server has the feature of pooling VM. | 05:20 |
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| yamahata | I'm not sure where pooling vm live. | 05:21 |
| yamahata | where the feature of pooling vm should live. | 05:21 |
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| yamahata | we can continue concrete discussion with gerrit. | 05:22 |
| s3wong | about API? Or the DNRM thing? | 05:23 |
| yamahata | #topic incubation process | 05:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "incubation process (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)" | 05:23 | |
| yamahata | #undo | 05:23 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x1cf4cd0> | 05:23 |
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| yamahata | s3wong: both. I think DNRM guys want to join the API discussion. | 05:23 |
| s3wong | OK | 05:23 |
| yamahata | Probably API needs modification based on their input | 05:24 |
| yamahata | #topic servicevm spec/code review | 05:24 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "servicevm spec/code review (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)" | 05:24 | |
| s3wong | yamahata: we do have to evaluate as a community which pieces, if any. of DNRM would make sense to integrate | 05:24 |
| s3wong | (go on to the next topic, please. No need to undo :-) ) | 05:25 |
| yamahata | s3wong: Agree | 05:25 |
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| yamahata | I need to have a closer look at their code. | 05:25 |
| s3wong | yamahata: +1 | 05:26 |
| yamahata | anything else with spec/code review? | 05:26 |
| yamahata | #action everyone have a closer look at DNRM code | 05:26 |
| s3wong | bobmel is now bmelande :-) | 05:26 |
| yamahata | #action yamahata have a closer look at DNRM core more. | 05:26 |
| yamahata | Last week One of my action item is to create l3 plugin. | 05:27 |
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| yamahata | I haven't done it yet. After pushing the tacker code for review, I'll create the blueprint. | 05:28 |
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| yamahata | #action yamahata create a blueprint for reference l3-plugin with servicevm | 05:28 |
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| yamahata | #topic Open Discussion | 05:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)" | 05:29 | |
| yamahata | Okay do we have anything to discuss? | 05:29 |
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| s3wong | all good for me | 05:30 |
| yamahata | cool. | 05:30 |
| yamahata | It seems one hour time slot is too long. | 05:30 |
| yamahata | How about 30min slots from the next time? | 05:31 |
| s3wong | yamahata: OK, either that or biweekly | 05:31 |
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| yamahata | s3wong: Surely biweek is also an option. | 05:32 |
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| bmelande | yamahata, s3wong: I think I prefer weekly but potentially make it shorter. | 05:32 |
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| s3wong | bmelande: OK. Let's go with yamahata 's original suggestion of 30 mins then | 05:32 |
| yamahata | #agreed 30min weekly meeting | 05:32 |
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| bmelande | Regarding API: Some notifications from device manager to its "customers" could be useful | 05:33 |
| bmelande | For example: to let a service plugin know that a VM is discovered to be "dead" | 05:34 |
| yamahata | bmelande: interesting. Could you be more specific? Probably in gerrit review part. | 05:34 |
| bmelande | Yes I'll comment to document. | 05:34 |
| s3wong | bmelande: exception handling? | 05:34 |
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| bmelande | s3wong: Well possibly it could be done like that. Not sure. | 05:35 |
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| s3wong | bmelande: cool, let's comment on it on gerrit review (API) | 05:36 |
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| bmelande | In our impl. the device manager does some basic checks of VM health. Ok, I'll make a comment there. | 05:37 |
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| yamahata | any other issues? | 05:37 |
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| s3wong | no, will review API doc | 05:38 |
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| yamahata | thank you. see you next week | 05:38 |
| s3wong | thanks | 05:38 |
| yamahata | #endmeeting | 05:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 05:38 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 1 05:38:54 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 05:38 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-07-01-05.03.html | 05:38 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-07-01-05.03.txt | 05:38 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-07-01-05.03.log.html | 05:38 |
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| sc68cal | #startmeeting neutron_ipv6 | 14:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 1 14:00:19 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is sc68cal. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_ipv6)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'neutron_ipv6' | 14:00 |
| sc68cal | Hello all | 14:00 |
| aveiga | hello | 14:00 |
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| BrianB_ | hi | 14:00 |
| pcarver | hello | 14:01 |
| dane_leblanc | Hello | 14:01 |
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| HenryG | o/ | 14:01 |
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| xuhanp | hi | 14:01 |
| sc68cal | thanks for joining everyone :) | 14:02 |
| sc68cal | #topic blueprints | 14:02 |
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| sc68cal | I think currently our highest priority is the radvd spec | 14:02 |
| sc68cal | #link https://review.openstack.org/101306 radvd spec | 14:03 |
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| HenryG | Time to start nagging cores for +2? | 14:03 |
| aveiga | I'd say so, since it's had a few days to languish | 14:04 |
| sc68cal | Possibly. I did ask for cores to take a look in yesterday's neutron meeting | 14:04 |
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| HenryG | markmcclain: ^^ :) | 14:04 |
| markmcclain | HenryG: it's in my morning queue | 14:05 |
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| dane_leblanc | Mark can look at it during his next flight. | 14:05 |
| HenryG | markmcclain: cool, thanks! | 14:06 |
| sc68cal | :) | 14:06 |
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| markmcclain | dane_leblanc: haha… I get a whole 6 days free of travel :) | 14:06 |
| sc68cal | dane_leblanc: I also brought up your multi prefix bp during the main meeting | 14:06 |
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| dane_leblanc | sc68cal: Yes, thanks for the mention! | 14:06 |
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| sc68cal | xuhanp: I know you have some stuff in flight too, I will bring it up at next week's meeting | 14:08 |
| xuhanp | sc68cal, thanks! | 14:08 |
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| sc68cal | Any new BPs that we need to discuss? | 14:09 |
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| sc68cal | #topic code reviews | 14:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "code reviews (Meeting topic: neutron_ipv6)" | 14:10 | |
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| sc68cal | Looks like baoli is not here | 14:11 |
| sc68cal | for https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102648/ | 14:11 |
| BrianB_ | baoli is on pto | 14:11 |
| HenryG | Robert (baoli) is out for a few days | 14:12 |
| HenryG | I am working on unit tests for his radvd change | 14:12 |
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| HenryG | I am also working with him on shuffling the code around a bit (see the review comments) | 14:12 |
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| sc68cal | Cool. Do you think J-2 is still a realistic timeline? since baoli is now PTO | 14:14 |
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| HenryG | The code is pretty straightforward and we have not hit any surprises. | 14:14 |
| HenryG | What is the J-2 date again? | 14:14 |
| BrianB_ | yes for J2 | 14:14 |
| mestery | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Juno_Release_Schedule | 14:15 |
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| mestery | HenryG: July 24 | 14:15 |
| sc68cal | 27th? | 14:15 |
| sc68cal | ah there we go :) | 14:15 |
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| HenryG | That should be no problem. | 14:15 |
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| sc68cal | Cool. Any other code reviews that need to be discussed? | 14:16 |
| xuhanp | baoli gave a -1 to one of my reviews which confused me. But I will talk to him when he's back | 14:17 |
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| sc68cal | xuhanp: link? | 14:18 |
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| xuhanp | https://review.openstack.org/101433 | 14:19 |
| * markmcclain adds +2 to radvd spec | 14:19 | |
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| * HenryG thanks markmcclain | 14:20 | |
| sc68cal | xuhanp: yeah not sure about his -1. I had a similar concern but checked | 14:20 |
| sc68cal | hence my +1 | 14:20 |
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| HenryG | xuhanp: sc68cal: I agree that baoli's comment is not applicable. I'll let him know. | 14:21 |
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| xuhanp | HenryG, thanks! | 14:21 |
| sc68cal | Any other reviews? | 14:23 |
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| markmcclain | sc68cal, HenryG: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/101306/ | 14:23 |
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| HenryG | markmcclain: mestery: Thanks!! | 14:24 |
| sc68cal | markmcclain: mestery: awesome | 14:24 |
| mestery | HenryG sc68cal: yw :) | 14:24 |
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| sc68cal | #topic bugs | 14:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "bugs (Meeting topic: neutron_ipv6)" | 14:25 | |
| sc68cal | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bugs?field.tag=ipv6 bugs tagged ipv6 | 14:26 |
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| sc68cal | I think the biggest bug we need to tackle is #1233339 | 14:27 |
| sc68cal | https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1233339 | 14:27 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1233339 in neutron "bump dhcp.Dnsmasq.MINIMUM_VERSION" [Medium,Triaged] | 14:27 |
| sc68cal | Since that is going to be part of xuhanp's work | 14:27 |
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| sc68cal | I don't know what we need to do to alert packagers that they need more recent versions of dnsmasq | 14:28 |
| xuhanp | sc68cal, yep. We are working on the dnsmasq stateless/stateful code. | 14:28 |
| xuhanp | sc68cal, we don't have a requirement on dnsmasq version today in requirement file, right? | 14:28 |
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| sc68cal | no, since requirements is only for python packages I believe | 14:29 |
| sc68cal | *pypi | 14:29 |
| * sc68cal tries to remember the handle of the gentleman that does debian packaging | 14:29 | |
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| sc68cal | ok well worst case we'll need to fire off something to the openstack-dev list as a heads up | 14:30 |
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| xuhanp | sc68cal, I guess we will need to be careful with the error from dnsmasq and prompt some clues by error message? | 14:30 |
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| sc68cal | If I recall, I think it has a pretty detailed error message when the version of dnsmasq is < MIN_VERSION | 14:30 |
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| xuhanp | sc68cal, ok. we can do some test. | 14:31 |
| sc68cal | Yeah, I could just push a patch to bump MIN_VERSION to 2.63 and see what explodes :) | 14:32 |
| xuhanp | sc68cal, sounds good | 14:32 |
| HenryG | Yup, that is about all neutron can do, plus documentation. | 14:33 |
| HenryG | So, put DocImpact in the commit message. | 14:33 |
| sc68cal | xuhanp: is 2.63 enough for what you guys are doing or do we want a more recent version | 14:33 |
| sc68cal | HenryG: good idea! | 14:33 |
| xuhanp | sc68cal, let me confirm that and get back to you. | 14:33 |
| xuhanp | I need to check my dev machine | 14:34 |
| sc68cal | cool | 14:34 |
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| sc68cal | Any other bugs to discuss? | 14:35 |
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| sc68cal | #topic open discussion | 14:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: neutron_ipv6)" | 14:36 | |
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| boh_ricky | daniel | 14:37 |
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| BrianB_ | markmcclain: Any update on new API def | 14:38 |
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| sc68cal | Looks like he's away | 14:43 |
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| sc68cal | If there is no further items to discuss, I will see everyone next week! | 14:43 |
| sc68cal | *there are | 14:44 |
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| sc68cal | #endmeeting | 14:45 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 14:45 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 1 14:45:05 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:45 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-07-01-14.00.html | 14:45 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-07-01-14.00.txt | 14:45 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-07-01-14.00.log.html | 14:45 |
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| n0ano | #startmeeting gantt | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 1 15:00:46 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'gantt' | 15:00 |
| bauzas | o/ | 15:00 |
| n0ano | anyone here to talk abou tthe scheduler? | 15:01 |
| yjiang5 | o/ | 15:01 |
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| n0ano | hmm, small group today (maybe we can get lots done :-) | 15:02 |
| * n0ano watches the solar panels being install on my roof | 15:02 | |
| ericfriz | Hi all | 15:02 |
| n0ano | #topic code forklift | 15:02 |
| LisaZangrando | Hello | 15:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "code forklift (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:02 | |
| MarcoVerlato | Hi | 15:02 |
| * bauzas also writes slides at the same time :) | 15:02 | |
| schwicke | I'm new here. | 15:02 |
| n0ano | ericfriz, LisaZangrando nice you can make it, we'll get to you soon | 15:03 |
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| n0ano | schwicke, NP, I promise we don't bite :-) | 15:03 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: don't we ? :) | 15:03 |
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| schwicke | n0ano: hoping for the best :) | 15:03 |
| LisaZangrando | ok thanks | 15:03 |
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| n0ano | bauzas, I thought we were good on the client and then john had some issues, do they look doable? | 15:04 |
| bauzas | n0ano: well, we discussed today with johnthetubaguy | 15:04 |
| bauzas | n0ano: about how we should do the steps to Gantt | 15:04 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: because he thought about possible issues and how we should do that | 15:04 |
| bauzas | n0ano: long story short, there is an etherpad | 15:04 |
| yjiang5 | bauzas: I need check IRC history to see your discussion,right? | 15:04 |
| johnthetubaguy | n0ano: hey, in my team planning meeting, but do shout at me if you want some answers | 15:05 |
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| bauzas | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/gantt-nova-compute_nodes | 15:05 |
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| bauzas | so the main problem is: | 15:05 |
| bauzas | what should we do with ComputeNode table ? | 15:05 |
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| bauzas | should it be a Scheduler table or a Nova table ? | 15:06 |
| bauzas | as per the last findings, johnthetubaguy is thinking to leave ComputeNode in Noa | 15:06 |
| bauzas | Nova | 15:06 |
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| bauzas | and only do updates in the client | 15:06 |
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| yjiang5 | bauzas: how often will we access the compute table? | 15:06 |
| n0ano | for compatibility reasons I think it should probably stay with nova for now, maybe in the future it can be moved into gantt | 15:06 |
| bauzas | n0ano: so that means we go to keep the computenodes table | 15:07 |
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| johnthetubaguy | n0ano: gantt will need its own table, with a different structure, and that seems fine | 15:07 |
| bauzas | ok, please all review https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/gantt-nova-compute_nodes and make comments if any | 15:07 |
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| johnthetubaguy | PCI stats need the ComputeNode table at the moment, for the PCI devices stuff, and I recon that means it has to say in Nova for the medium term | 15:08 |
| yjiang5 | bauzas: n0ano: Don't this should be compute_table object scope? If everything is kepts in compute_node object, then no matter how we do the implementation, we will simply change the compute_node object? | 15:08 |
| bauzas | if we all agree to keep compute_nodes, I'll backport johnthetubaguy's change into the 82778 patch | 15:08 |
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| yjiang5 | johnthetubaguy: you mean PCI stats or PCI dev tracker? | 15:08 |
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| bauzas | well, to be precise, I already made that, I need to restore a previous patchset | 15:09 |
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| n0ano | unfortunately, I think johnthetubaguy is right and we should stay that way for now | 15:09 |
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| yjiang5 | johnthetubaguy: why don''t we hide all these thing behind the compute node object? | 15:09 |
| n0ano | bauzas, then why did you change originally, won't the same objections apply? | 15:09 |
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| bauzas | ok, my main concern is keeping the roadmap, so I'll go with these changes for https://review.openstack.org/#/c/82778 | 15:10 |
| bauzas | n0ano: the problem is that there were no clear consensus | 15:10 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: so I made lots of proposals over here | 15:10 |
| bauzas | n0ano: now, I'll stick with the proposal | 15:10 |
| bauzas | n0ano: there is another side effect to it | 15:11 |
| bauzas | johnthetubaguy and I agreed that we should possibly do the fork once that patch get merged | 15:11 |
| n0ano | the PCI issue is a strong argument (to me anyway) so I'd just say nova owns the table is the new concensus and we try and make it work | 15:11 |
| bauzas | and then work on Gantt directly | 15:11 |
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| bauzas | but that requires some code freeze in Nova | 15:11 |
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| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: you agree ? | 15:12 |
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| yjiang5 | n0ano: if we will remove the compute table out of nova, we can change PCI for it also. | 15:12 |
| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: I mean, we take your scenario, go ahead, do the split, work on Gantt for feature parity | 15:12 |
| n0ano | yjiang5, I's say that's something we do later, after we do the split into gantt | 15:12 |
| n0ano | bauzas, +1 | 15:12 |
| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: that means that Nova will possibly have some code freeze | 15:13 |
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| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: and *that* is a big turn in mind | 15:13 |
| toan-tran | bauzas: +1, who knows how long it takes to finish it | 15:13 |
| n0ano | bauzas, not necessarily code freeze, we just have to back port changes from nova to gantt after the s;lit | 15:14 |
| bauzas | because the idea was to do some pre-work on sched-db https://review.openstack.org/89893 | 15:14 |
| bauzas | but johnthetubaguy got -1 to it | 15:14 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: my only worries go about the level of backports needed | 15:14 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: and the idea was to do the steps *before* to prevent that backports | 15:15 |
| bauzas | s/that/these | 15:15 |
| n0ano | bauzas, a concern but I think it's doable, the steps we are doing reduce the number of backports needed rather than eliminate them | 15:15 |
| bauzas | the main problem is about filtering on aggregates and instances | 15:15 |
| bauzas | ok so https://review.openstack.org/82778 is the top prio and then we split | 15:16 |
| n0ano | +1 | 15:16 |
| bauzas | n0ano: we need to think about all the steps for stepping up a CI, etc. | 15:16 |
| toan-tran | n0ano: some of the mechnism will need to change, like aggregates, these will prevent some nova patches into gantt | 15:16 |
| bauzas | an API and a client :) | 15:16 |
| bauzas | toan-tran: there are some blueprints for porting the aggs stats to sched using extensible RT | 15:17 |
| bauzas | toan-tran: that would avoid the sched to call the Nova API for it | 15:17 |
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| bauzas | toan-tran: which is good | 15:17 |
| toan-tran | bauzas: just an example, but thanks for the info :) | 15:17 |
| bauzas | toan-tran: but until that, Gantt won't support aggregates filtering | 15:17 |
| bauzas | n0ano: still happy with that ? | 15:18 |
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| toan-tran | my point is since we don't even have all the changes sorted out, there are risks that some new patches cannot be backported to gantt | 15:18 |
| n0ano | bauzas, works for me, just means we'll have some feature parity work still for gantt | 15:18 |
| bauzas | we can possibly vote on it ? | 15:18 |
| toan-tran | s/sorted/figured | 15:18 |
| bauzas | give me chair on the meeting, will arrange a vote | 15:18 |
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| bauzas | #chair bauzas | 15:19 |
| n0ano | #chair bauzas | 15:19 |
| openstack | Current chairs: bauzas n0ano | 15:19 |
| bauzas | #help vote | 15:19 |
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| n0ano | do you need anything from me, you have the chair | 15:20 |
| bauzas | #vote Do we agree to split scheduler code without waiting work on isolate-sched-db, which implies Gantt to not be feature-parity with nova-scheduler ? | 15:20 |
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| bauzas | strange | 15:20 |
| bauzas | the bot is unhappy | 15:20 |
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| n0ano | well, +1 from me, no matter what the bot is doing | 15:21 |
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| toan-tran | +1 for me too | 15:21 |
| bauzas | #startvote Do we agree to split scheduler code without waiting work on isolate-sched-db, which implies Gantt to not be feature-parity with nova-scheduler ? | 15:22 |
| openstack | Begin voting on: Do we agree to split scheduler code without waiting work on isolate-sched-db, which implies Gantt to not be feature-parity with nova-scheduler ? Valid vote options are Yes, No. | 15:22 |
| openstack | Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts. | 15:22 |
| mspreitz | bauzas: you mean Gantt not feature parity at first, but will be later? | 15:22 |
| bauzas | dammit, forgot the good tag :) | 15:22 |
| bauzas | #undo | 15:22 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Help object at 0x2a27910> | 15:22 |
| bauzas | #vote Do we agree to split scheduler code without waiting work on isolate-sched-db, which implies Gantt to not be feature-parity at first with nova-scheduler ? | 15:22 |
| n0ano | mspreitz, yes, that is the plan | 15:22 |
| bauzas | #startvote Do we agree to split scheduler code without waiting work on isolate-sched-db, which implies Gantt to not be feature-parity at first with nova-scheduler ? | 15:22 |
| openstack | Already voting on 'Do we agree to split scheduler code without waiting work on isolate-sched-db, which implies Gantt to not be feature-parity with nova-scheduler ' | 15:22 |
| bauzas | #endvote | 15:23 |
| openstack | Voted on "Do we agree to split scheduler code without waiting work on isolate-sched-db, which implies Gantt to not be feature-parity with nova-scheduler ?" Results are | 15:23 |
| bauzas | #startvote Do we agree to split scheduler code without waiting work on isolate-sched-db, which implies Gantt to not be feature-parity at first with nova-scheduler ? | 15:23 |
| openstack | Begin voting on: Do we agree to split scheduler code without waiting work on isolate-sched-db, which implies Gantt to not be feature-parity at first with nova-scheduler ? Valid vote options are Yes, No. | 15:23 |
| openstack | Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts. | 15:23 |
| bauzas | #vote yes | 15:23 |
| yjiang5 | #vote No | 15:23 |
| n0ano | #vote yes | 15:23 |
| toan-tran | #vote yes | 15:23 |
| toan-tran | #vote Yes | 15:23 |
| * bauzas eventually found out how to setup a vote... | 15:23 | |
| bauzas | mspreitz: ? | 15:24 |
| mspreitz | not sure, I came in late, I think I will abstain | 15:24 |
| bauzas | ok | 15:24 |
| bauzas | #endvote | 15:24 |
| openstack | Voted on "Do we agree to split scheduler code without waiting work on isolate-sched-db, which implies Gantt to not be feature-parity at first with nova-scheduler ?" Results are | 15:24 |
| bauzas | awesome... | 15:24 |
| bauzas | anyway, we have a majority over here | 15:24 |
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| yjiang5 | n0ano: bauzas: need leave now. talk to you guys later. | 15:24 |
| bauzas | sure, thanks yjiang5 | 15:25 |
| n0ano | bot is weird but my count was 3-1 so yes wins | 15:25 |
| yjiang5 | bauzas: bye. | 15:25 |
| n0ano | yjiang5, later | 15:25 |
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| n0ano | bauzas, so, you have clear direction for now? | 15:25 |
| bauzas | #action bauzas to deliver a new patchset for sched-lib based on keeping ComputeNode in Nova | 15:25 |
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| bauzas | n0ano: yup | 15:26 |
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| n0ano | cool, let's move on then | 15:26 |
| n0ano | #topic Fair Share scheduler | 15:26 |
| bauzas | n0ano: we need to sync up next week to see what to do with the split itself | 15:26 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Fair Share scheduler (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:26 | |
| n0ano | ericfriz, you still here? | 15:26 |
| ericfriz | yes, i'm here! | 15:26 |
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| LisaZangrando | me too | 15:27 |
| n0ano | so, I hope everyone read ericfriz email about his fair share scheduler idea | 15:27 |
| schwicke | yep | 15:27 |
| toan-tran | me too | 15:27 |
| n0ano | the idea looks interesting, I'm curious is this just a new filter or are you changing the scheduler itself? | 15:27 |
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| bauzas | ericfriz: could you just summarize your idea ? | 15:29 |
| ericfriz | It's not a filter, but it's a change to the scheduler algorithm | 15:29 |
| LisaZangrando | please take a look to the slide #12 | 15:30 |
| toan-tran | LisaZangrando: can you provide the link here? | 15:30 |
| schwicke | ericfriz: if I got it right, you are using the scheduler from slurm, correct ? | 15:30 |
| LisaZangrando | the schema show the new architecture | 15:30 |
| bauzas | #link https://github.com/CloudPadovana/openstack-fairshare-scheduler | 15:30 |
| ericfriz | yes, SLURM's Priority MultiFactor | 15:31 |
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| bauzas | it appears to me that your proposal is really close to what Blazar already does :) | 15:31 |
| LisaZangrando | no, the scheduler implements the same scheduling algorithm og slurm | 15:31 |
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| LisaZangrando | no, the scheduler implements the same scheduling algorithm of slurm | 15:31 |
| bauzas | ie. you have a reservation and the system will handle it | 15:31 |
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| bauzas | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Blazar | 15:33 |
| LisaZangrando | which kind of reservation? | 15:33 |
| mspreitz | ericfriz: does a user request in your design have a start time and/or end time or duration? | 15:33 |
| bauzas | virtual instances or physical compute_node | 15:33 |
| mspreitz | LisaZangrando: you mean slide #12 of https://agenda.infn.it/getFile.py/access?contribId=17&sessionId=3&resId=0&materialId=slides&confId=7915 ? | 15:34 |
| toan-tran | LisaZangrando: I quick scanned your docment | 15:35 |
| toan-tran | and get the feeling that you want to sorted users' requests based on priority | 15:35 |
| ericfriz | mspreitz: user request has no duration when it's queued | 15:35 |
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| toan-tran | but users' requests are asynchronized | 15:35 |
| jaypipes | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/103598/ <-- totally different way of approaching the scheduler. Just for kicks and giggles. | 15:35 |
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| toan-tran | you're assuming that there are not enough resources for current requests? so that they have to wait in a queue? | 15:36 |
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| ericfriz | toan-tran: yes, it's. | 15:36 |
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| toan-tran | ericfriz: as you said, current nova scheduler does handle requests FIFO | 15:37 |
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| toan-tran | so I think your patch targets nova-scheduler Manager than nova-scheduler Scheduler :) | 15:37 |
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| bauzas | toan-tran: I just thought about Blazar because it seems the whole idea is to say "as a user, I want to start an instance but I want to guaranttee that I'll have enough resource for it" | 15:39 |
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| bauzas | so I'll wait until all the conditions are met | 15:39 |
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| bauzas | that's what I call a lease | 15:39 |
| toan-tran | bauzas: yes, but Blazar focuses on time condition | 15:39 |
| bauzas | ie. a strong contract in between the user and the system | 15:39 |
| bauzas | toan-tran: not exactly | 15:40 |
| toan-tran | here they're talking a bout priority, who gets the resources first | 15:40 |
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| * johnthetubaguy is free to talk if its useful later in the meeting | 15:40 | |
| bauzas | toan-tran: the Blazar lease is about granting resources for a certain amount of time | 15:40 |
| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: nah we agreed on your approach | 15:40 |
| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: I'll do a new patchset tomorrow so you'll review it | 15:41 |
| johnthetubaguy | bauzas: OK | 15:41 |
| johnthetubaguy | thanks | 15:41 |
| LisaZangrando | briefly, To all user requests will be assigned a priority value calculated by considering the share allocated to the user by the administrator and the evaluation of the effective resource usage consumed in the recent past. All requests will be inserted in a priority queue, and processed in parallel by a configurable pool of workers without interfering with the priority order. | 15:41 |
| schwicke | I think the proposal is useful in situations where resources are limited and where the provider has an interest in getting it's resources used all the time. | 15:41 |
| schwicke | not being an expert on blazar but to me it seems to address a different use case | 15:42 |
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| bauzas | LisaZangrando: by saying "shares", you mean quotas ? | 15:43 |
| toan-tran | schwicke: well if user does not care much on time constraint so yes tou're right | 15:43 |
| toan-tran | s/tou/you | 15:43 |
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| LisaZangrando | bauzas: yes | 15:43 |
| schwicke | toan-tran: certainly correct | 15:43 |
| * n0ano wishes bauzas would quit stealing my questions :-) | 15:44 | |
| LisaZangrando | bauzas: yes, share in batch system terminology | 15:44 |
| n0ano | LisaZangrando, then what is a quota, CPU usage, mem usage, disk usage? | 15:44 |
| toan-tran | n0ano: quicker next time! otherwise you'll loose | 15:44 |
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| n0ano | toan-tran, age is slowing down my fingers | 15:45 |
| schwicke | n0ano: quotas on those are ceilings. | 15:45 |
| schwicke | They define the maximum of what a user can have I'd say, right, Lisa ? | 15:45 |
| bauzas | schwicke: that's what we call quotas in OpenStack :) | 15:46 |
| schwicke | :) | 15:46 |
| mspreitz | I'm a little confused here, it looks like the FairShare design is about a priority queue to hand out things sooner or later, not limit usage | 15:46 |
| bauzas | mspreitz: +1 | 15:46 |
| toan-tran | mspreitz: +1 | 15:46 |
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| LisaZangrando | it is a % of resource assigend to a project/user | 15:46 |
| bauzas | and the "sooner or later" sounds familiar to me... | 15:46 |
| mspreitz | so it's about "share" not "quota" | 15:46 |
| schwicke | yes | 15:46 |
| toan-tran | please correct me if I'm wrong | 15:47 |
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| toan-tran | FaireShare targets a situation in which there is not enough resources for everbody | 15:47 |
| n0ano | LisaZangrando, implication is that your cahnges will affect more than just the scheduler, you have to setup mechanism for specifying and allocating these shares | 15:47 |
| toan-tran | so the scheduler hes to decide who to give resoures to, and how much | 15:47 |
| toan-tran | nothing to do with quota , right ? | 15:47 |
| toan-tran | s/hes/has | 15:48 |
| johnthetubaguy | is there a good description of the use cases for the fairshare scheduler anywhere? | 15:48 |
| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: https://agenda.infn.it/getFile.py/access?contribId=17&sessionId=3&resId=0&materialId=slides&confId=7915 | 15:48 |
| LisaZangrando | toan-tran: correct | 15:48 |
| mspreitz | bauzas: those slides do not have use case in them | 15:49 |
| mspreitz | bauzas: my mistake | 15:49 |
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| mspreitz | there is text about use case, it is pretty generic | 15:49 |
| mspreitz | page 16 and 17 | 15:50 |
| johnthetubaguy | mspreitz: +1 | 15:50 |
| johnthetubaguy | I don't see what problem it is trying to solve | 15:50 |
| johnthetubaguy | I am sure there is one, I just don't see it right now | 15:50 |
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| mspreitz | page 16 and 17 are really statements of technology goals, not illustrations of usage | 15:50 |
| ericfriz | The FairShareScheduler is used in our Openstack installation, named "Cloud Padovana" | 15:51 |
| johnthetubaguy | it talks about queuing the requests of users, there is generally never a backlog, so it doesn't matter about the order, you just place things when you get the request, so there much be something bigger that is required here | 15:51 |
| bauzas | so, could we consider to ask you to provide some information for next week ? | 15:51 |
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| johnthetubaguy | ericfriz: so are you trying to share resources between users, and evict people who are using too many resources? | 15:52 |
| n0ano | looks like a clear definition of the use cases/problems you are solving would be nice to have | 15:52 |
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| ericfriz | johnthetubaguy: yes, that is an usecase | 15:53 |
| mspreitz | ericfriz: tell us about the people using Cloud Padovana and what problems they would have if your solution were not in place | 15:53 |
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| johnthetubaguy | ericfriz: OK, is quite a different "contract" with users to what nova offers, so we need a nice description of that ideally | 15:53 |
| mspreitz | ericfriz: I did not notice anything about eviction | 15:53 |
| n0ano | mspreitz, +1 | 15:54 |
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| ericfriz | mspreitz: scientific teams. when there are not more resources, the user requests fail. | 15:54 |
| johnthetubaguy | I am assuming you want someone to have 10% of all resources, should they request them, and others can use that space if they are not using them, and so it boils down to "spot instance" style things, but I don't really see that described anywhere | 15:55 |
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| bauzas | I'm also thinking about something mentioned in the thread, deferred booting | 15:55 |
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| mspreitz | ericfriz: what is the nature of these scientific jobs? Can they tolerate allocation of some VMs now, a few more later, and a few more later? | 15:56 |
| johnthetubaguy | ericfriz: it probably seems obvious with a grid computing hat, but doesn't fit too well into nova right now | 15:56 |
| bauzas | you would probably require the Keystone trusts mechanism, hence my idea about blazar | 15:56 |
| bauzas | and what johnthetubaguy said still makes me thinking about Blazar... | 15:57 |
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| LisaZangrando | The "illusion" to have unlimited resources ready to be used and always available is one of the key concepts underlying the Cloud paradigm. Openstack refuses further requests if the resources are not available. | 15:57 |
| bauzas | Blazar == Climate, for the records | 15:57 |
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| bauzas | LisaZangrando: so you want to guaranttee them on a best-effort basis ? | 15:58 |
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| LisaZangrando | we want to guarantee all requests are processed | 15:58 |
| mspreitz | LisaZangrando: Does this illusion include maybe being spontaneously evicted? | 15:58 |
| johnthetubaguy | LisaZangrando: well, sure, but we could make things a bit more "griddy" for highly utilised clouds, its just going to involve introducing new type of flavors, like "spot instances", extra instance above your quota, but they could get killed at any point | 15:58 |
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| n0ano | bauzas, more like don't every fail a request, just pend it until it can be satisfied | 15:59 |
| bauzas | we're running out of time, we need to conclude | 15:59 |
| ericfriz | Blazar uses time condition, FairshareScheduler has no time condition for extracting the user requests from the queue. | 15:59 |
| * n0ano refers back to his last commen about stealing questions | 15:59 | |
| bauzas | but Blazar implements some best-effort mode where you define your contract :) | 15:59 |
| n0ano | indeed, it's the top of the hour so we'll have to conclude | 15:59 |
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| toan-tran | LisaZangrando: as a public cloud provider ( <== Cloudwatt ), I can tell you that we're trying our best to not be in the situation o fneeding FS | 16:00 |
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| toan-tran | but I can see its value | 16:00 |
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| schwicke | maybe as an action item a compilation of use cases would be useful I think, circulate that and then review later ? | 16:00 |
| toan-tran | s/fneeding/needing | 16:00 |
| n0ano | I want to thank everyone, good discussion, I'd like to continue the fair share discussion next week, hopefully we've given you guys stuff to think about | 16:00 |
| bauzas | schwicke: +1 | 16:00 |
| schwicke | can that be action-itemed | 16:00 |
| n0ano | #action schwicke to come up with clear use cases for next weeks meeting | 16:01 |
| toan-tran | so you should come up with a good usecase, and be careful not to get too much on grid's phylosophy | 16:01 |
| bauzas | awesome | 16:01 |
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| n0ano | tnx everyone | 16:01 |
| n0ano | #endmeeting | 16:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 1 16:01:20 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-07-01-15.00.html | 16:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-07-01-15.00.txt | 16:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-07-01-15.00.log.html | 16:01 |
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| schwicke | was hoping for lisa doing that actually :) | 16:01 |
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| n0ano | schwicke, note, if yor're the wrong person to come up with the use cases feel free to refer it to the appriate person | 16:02 |
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| schwicke | no problem :) | 16:02 |
| n0ano | LisaZangrando, looks like that action was really for you | 16:02 |
| schwicke | I'm happy to help on this actually :) | 16:02 |
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| goodes | is the swift meeting on Tuesday or Wednesdays? | 16:51 |
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| notmyname | goodes: wednesdays at 1900utc | 16:54 |
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| goodes | notmyname: thanks | 16:55 |
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| boris-42 | Рш фдд | 17:08 |
| boris-42 | Hi all | 17:08 |
| boris-42 | #startmeeting Rally | 17:08 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 1 17:08:29 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is boris-42. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:08 |
| oanufriev | hi | 17:08 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:08 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'rally' | 17:08 |
| boris-42 | olkonami | 17:08 |
| boris-42 | hi | 17:08 |
| boris-42 | rediskin | 17:08 |
| olkonami | hi | 17:08 |
| rediskin | hi | 17:08 |
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| boris-42 | Okay let's just start discusssion | 17:10 |
| boris-42 | #topic stress runner | 17:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "stress runner (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:10 | |
| boris-42 | olkonami pls go on | 17:10 |
| olkonami | I'll send new patchset with fixed comments in a few minutes | 17:11 |
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| boris-42 | olkonami anything to discuss? | 17:11 |
| olkonami | yes, my questions from rally chat | 17:12 |
| olkonami | I think it's better to specify "max_failure_rate" in percents. It will be more clear and it is done so in sla patch. Are you agree? Also about this parameter name, it is better to indicate that it is associated with a stop and that it is different from sla "max_failure_percent". May be something like "stop_failure_percent", what do you think? | 17:12 |
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| boris-42 | olkonami stop_on_failure_percent | 17:14 |
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| boris-42 | olkonami probably ) | 17:14 |
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| boris-42 | olkonami btw | 17:15 |
| boris-42 | olkonami ah no | 17:15 |
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| boris-42 | olkonami so how user will setup? | 17:16 |
| boris-42 | olkonami 0.10 ? | 17:16 |
| boris-42 | olkonami or "10" | 17:16 |
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| boris-42 | olkonami or "10%" ? | 17:16 |
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| olkonami | I think 10 | 17:16 |
| olkonami | will be more clear | 17:16 |
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| boris-42 | olkonami I don't have strong opinion on that | 17:17 |
| boris-42 | olkonami so I'll be ok with both | 17:17 |
| olkonami | that it is percents shold be specified in parameter name | 17:17 |
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| olkonami | or what do you mean? | 17:17 |
| boris-42 | olkonami ok | 17:17 |
| boris-42 | olkonami hm no I am ok with 10 | 17:18 |
| boris-42 | olkonami and stop_on_failure_precent: x | 17:18 |
| boris-42 | Okay so let's move | 17:18 |
| boris-42 | #topic RPS runner | 17:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "RPS runner (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:18 | |
| boris-42 | oanufriev hey there | 17:19 |
| boris-42 | oanufriev any update? | 17:19 |
| oanufriev | yo! | 17:19 |
| rediskin | \o | 17:19 |
| oanufriev | i sent the patch for review and got -1. | 17:19 |
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| oanufriev | have a question about one comment | 17:20 |
| oanufriev | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102363/6/rally/benchmark/runners/rps.py,cm | 17:20 |
| oanufriev | here it is - the second-one | 17:20 |
| oanufriev | should i reuse implementation from glance? | 17:21 |
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| boris-42 | oanufriev ? | 17:22 |
| boris-42 | oanufriev what implementation? | 17:22 |
| oanufriev | implementation of rate limitting of requests | 17:23 |
| boris-42 | oanufriev I am not sure | 17:23 |
| boris-42 | oanufriev actually I am sure that we shouldn't use this | 17:23 |
| boris-42 | oanufriev we don't need speed limit | 17:23 |
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| oanufriev | ok. got it | 17:24 |
| boris-42 | oanufriev olkonami I will try to find time to review your patches | 17:24 |
| boris-42 | oanufriev olkonami sorry currently I am quite busy with osprofiler | 17:24 |
| boris-42 | #topic SLA | 17:24 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "SLA (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:24 | |
| boris-42 | rediskin so is it finish finally? | 17:24 |
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| rediskin | boris-42: this patch got +2, so i think it quite ready | 17:25 |
| rediskin | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/98158/ | 17:25 |
| boris-42 | rediskin okay I'll take a look | 17:25 |
| boris-42 | rediskin what about functional tests ? | 17:25 |
| boris-42 | #topic func tests | 17:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "func tests (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:25 | |
| rediskin | but there is a lots of criteria to be added | 17:25 |
| boris-42 | rediskin for example? | 17:26 |
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| rediskin | only two criteria done, and i believe it is not enough | 17:26 |
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| rediskin | people will want more criterio =) | 17:27 |
| boris-42 | rediskin any examples? | 17:27 |
| rediskin | maximum time per specific atomic action | 17:27 |
| boris-42 | rediskin ouh ok | 17:27 |
| boris-42 | rediskin yep | 17:27 |
| boris-42 | rediskin zoo okay we will work on that | 17:27 |
| boris-42 | rediskin so what about function tests in rally-cli job? | 17:27 |
| rediskin | it finally works | 17:28 |
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| boris-42 | rediskin so we can result script that made k4no | 17:28 |
| rediskin | you can see results in comments for this patch https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102899/ | 17:28 |
| boris-42 | rediskin to display results btw | 17:28 |
| rediskin | job called check-rally-dsvm-cli | 17:29 |
| boris-42 | rediskin where is HTML?? | 17:29 |
| boris-42 | =) | 17:29 |
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| rediskin | no html yet | 17:29 |
| boris-42 | rediskin so you can rest from tempest in future | 17:30 |
| rediskin | i focused around helper methods for tests | 17:30 |
| rediskin | and tests itself | 17:30 |
| boris-42 | rediskin okay I will review it | 17:30 |
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| boris-42 | #topic open discussion | 17:35 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:35 | |
| boris-42 | so do we have anything to discssu? | 17:35 |
| boris-42 | discuss? ) | 17:35 |
| boris-42 | so seems like we can end it=) | 17:36 |
| boris-42 | woohoo=) | 17:36 |
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| rediskin | oh | 17:40 |
| rediskin | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/103706/ | 17:40 |
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| rediskin | -3k lines =) | 17:41 |
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| boris-42 | #endmeeting | 17:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:52 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 1 17:52:11 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:52 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-07-01-17.08.html | 17:52 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-07-01-17.08.txt | 17:52 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-07-01-17.08.log.html | 17:52 |
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| dolphm | ayoung, bknudson, dstanek, jamielennox, morganfainberg, stevemar, gyee, henrynash, topol, marekd, lbragstad, joesavak, shardy, fabiog, fmarco76, nkinder, lloydm, shrekuma, ksavich: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting | 18:01 |
| henrynash | hi there | 18:01 |
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| dstanek | o/ | 18:01 |
| morganfainberg | It's that time of the week... | 18:01 |
| joesavak | o/ | 18:01 |
| morganfainberg | o/ | 18:01 |
| gyee | \o | 18:01 |
| kwss | hello :) | 18:01 |
| topol | o/ | 18:01 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, was just about to ping folks :) | 18:01 |
| lbragstad | hey | 18:01 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: was lunching! | 18:01 |
| bknudson | hi | 18:01 |
| bknudson | tacos? | 18:02 |
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| dolphm | yay, we have an agenda item! | 18:02 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, i was fighting with mox, i missed breakfast :( | 18:02 |
| topol | dolphm, food truck day? | 18:02 |
| bknudson | I think it's canada day | 18:02 |
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| dolphm | topol: yes, bknudson: philly cheesesteak | 18:02 |
| gyee | U.S.A, U.S.A. | 18:02 |
| bknudson | you could have some canadian food to celebrate | 18:02 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: that's all mox is good for | 18:02 |
| bknudson | it's also usa world cup day | 18:02 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, heat uses mox :( | 18:02 |
| * lbragstad wonders what canadians eat | 18:02 | |
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| bknudson | canadian bacon | 18:02 |
| topol | lbragstad canadian bacon | 18:02 |
| * gyee is gearing up for fubol | 18:02 | |
| bknudson | but they call it back bacon | 18:03 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, good point! game today | 18:03 |
| topol | bknudson jinx | 18:03 |
| dolphm | game in 2 hours | 18:03 |
| dolphm | #startmeeting keystone | 18:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 1 18:03:27 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is dolphm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:03 |
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| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:03 |
| dolphm | #topic Update on oslo libraries | 18:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Update on oslo libraries (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:03 | |
| dolphm | bknudson: o/ | 18:03 |
| bknudson | ok, not a whole lot to say but the oslo team are starting to release libs | 18:03 |
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| bknudson | unfortunately they release with an alpha release and then I can't add it to global requirements | 18:04 |
| bknudson | there was a note to the mailing list about this | 18:04 |
| dolphm | does that mean -incubator is dying? | 18:04 |
| bknudson | I think there are some things that will be in -incubator still | 18:04 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, yep. | 18:04 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, slowly | 18:04 |
| bknudson | and new stuff can go there | 18:04 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, ++ | 18:04 |
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| bknudson | but we'll have | 18:04 |
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| bknudson | - fixture moved to oslo.config (reviews out there) | 18:05 |
| bknudson | - oslo.i18n | 18:05 |
| dolphm | had a conversation recently about a (potentially) a new oslo incubator module -- would that just become it's own lib immediately instead? | 18:05 |
| bknudson | - oslo.utils | 18:05 |
| lbragstad | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-July/039089.html | 18:05 |
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| lbragstad | bknudson: was that the right thread? | 18:05 |
| bknudson | oslo.utils has the import function that we use for managers | 18:05 |
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| bknudson | lbragstad: thanks, that's the link. I hadn't seen the latest update. | 18:06 |
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| bknudson | so I think that's it for the update... | 18:06 |
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| bknudson | kind of blocked by having to redo the entire infrastructure | 18:06 |
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| bknudson | dolphm: I think it depends on how stable you would consider the interface whether it goes to incubator | 18:07 |
| bknudson | there has been an oslo lib where they didn't go to incubator first (vmware) | 18:07 |
| dolphm | so, starting in incubator is still the default path | 18:07 |
| bknudson | dolphm: I think so. | 18:08 |
| dolphm | cool | 18:08 |
| dolphm | well | 18:08 |
| dolphm | #topic open discussion | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, afaict the idea is move things out of incubator faster now that there is a set pathc. | 18:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:08 | |
| bknudson | but we already have a lot less code in keystone due to loss of db.session | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, ooh i have something for open discussion! | 18:08 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: well it's open... | 18:09 |
| morganfainberg | 2 things | 18:09 |
| morganfainberg | Keystonemiddleware! | 18:09 |
| dolphm | yay! | 18:09 |
| dolphm | there was a devstack review blocking it's release -- did that merge? | 18:09 |
| morganfainberg | as soon as it merges into dev stack we can have a release (or well things): https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102326/ | 18:09 |
| morganfainberg | it's approved and just fighting with gate | 18:09 |
| bknudson | btw, we already have a change to auth_token tests in keystoneclient that now needs to be made in keystonemiddleware,too | 18:09 |
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| bknudson | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/99846/ | 18:10 |
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| morganfainberg | ok | 18:10 |
| bknudson | I've got changes lined up to get the other projects using keystonemiddleware | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg | well need to get that ported across | 18:11 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson, ++ | 18:11 |
| bknudson | https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+branch:master+topic:keystonemiddleware,n,z | 18:11 |
| dolphm | can't we just nuke tests in keystoneclient? | 18:11 |
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| dolphm | in favor of 'ensure the import from keystonemiddleware works' | 18:11 |
| bknudson | we don't import | 18:11 |
| jamielennox | not until we remove it i think | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, well, we can't do that import due to circular deps | 18:12 |
| topol | bknudson, VERY COOL!!! | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, we'd need to break apart ksc more than it is to do that | 18:12 |
| jamielennox | still don't want to break existing | 18:12 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: ah, forgot about that. | 18:12 |
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| morganfainberg | and we might make some people very sad if we broke apart and added a new package dep (read: havana / icehouse deployments) | 18:13 |
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| morganfainberg | we're going to need to hold middleware in ksc (at least an old version) probably until L releases. | 18:13 |
| morganfainberg | at the very least K. | 18:13 |
| jamielennox | morganfainberg: 2.0 | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg | but it is mostly isolated from the rest of keystoneclient, so maintaining it wont be awful. | 18:14 |
| bknudson | btw, can we have a 1.0 package depend on a < 1.0 package? | 18:14 |
| bknudson | seems odd to have a stable lib depend on an unstable one | 18:15 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, i think we can. | 18:15 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, there is a lot of python that is not 1.0 and is used. | 18:15 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, we could release a 0.9 of middleware i guess and then make the next release of ksc 1.0? :P | 18:15 |
| dolphm | bknudson: what's the < 1.0 package? | 18:15 |
| bknudson | keystoneclient | 18:15 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, keystoneclient | 18:15 |
| dolphm | i don't think it matters too much - we control both versioning schemes and know exactly how stable each are | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, iso8601 is 0.1.9, pbr is < 1.0, prettytable is < 1.0, netaddr is < 1.0 | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg | i think we should be fine | 18:16 |
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| bknudson | ok, works for me | 18:17 |
| bknudson | so keystonemiddleware is just waiting for the devstack change | 18:17 |
| morganfainberg | yep | 18:17 |
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| morganfainberg | and then we can do a release [no blockers unless some change to the code is needed] | 18:17 |
| bknudson | any reviews in progress that we should have in? | 18:17 |
| * topol morganfainberg digging up the concrete example! | 18:17 | |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, i think we said 1.0.0 will be a straight cut over | 18:18 |
| bknudson | I thought there were some docs | 18:18 |
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| morganfainberg | we got readme and contributing added | 18:18 |
| morganfainberg | already merged | 18:18 |
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| bknudson | ok | 18:19 |
| jamielennox | morganfainberg: i was thinking (and been lazy about it) that we should take the opportunity to make everything in auth_token private | 18:19 |
| jamielennox | everything but the class defenition | 18:19 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, want to keep as is or make that changeover before release? | 18:19 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, should be an easy/transparent change | 18:19 |
| jamielennox | it'll make porting patches a bit harder between the two, but we've always had the problem that people want to override it where they shouldn't | 18:20 |
| morganfainberg | jamielennox, i'm ok with that, but i'll defer to dolphm | 18:20 |
| dolphm | i'm leaning towards that being a 1.1 thing :-/ | 18:20 |
| dstanek | jamielennox: will that actually stop them? | 18:20 |
| bknudson | maybe that it's in keystonemiddleware now rather than in an API will convince people that they shouldn't override things | 18:20 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, ++ | 18:21 |
| topol | jamielennox, is that code someone would want to override? | 18:21 |
| jamielennox | dstanek: probably not but it's a clear sign that if they do and we change it then it's there own fault | 18:21 |
| bknudson | there -> their | 18:21 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: sure, but if we're calling something 1.0 we are declaring it stable and non-changing api - this wouldn't be | 18:21 |
| topol | dstanek, it may not stop them but it gives us coverage when they bitch | 18:21 |
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| topol | dstanek, been to that rodeo before | 18:21 |
| jamielennox | topol: i always thought no, but there's always someone doing odd things - it has come up before | 18:22 |
| morganfainberg | jamielennox, we have said in the past middleware internals are internal. we just ddin't do that before | 18:22 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: propose the patch, and let's talk in code review? | 18:22 |
| morganfainberg | prefix with _ that is | 18:22 |
| jamielennox | will do | 18:22 |
| topol | jamielennox, I agree. not having the prefix means someone can do a lot of overrides and then when we change the API, their whole world breaks and they are angry | 18:22 |
| morganfainberg | ok quick second topic, non-persistent tokens. wanted input from folks on this. | 18:24 |
| morganfainberg | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/103416/ I proposed making [token]/driver [token]/persistence_driver | 18:24 |
| morganfainberg | this is the start of a long chain that will deprecate token_api, merge most of that functionality into the token_provider_api | 18:24 |
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| morganfainberg | token_api will be kept around for a cycle (like we did with the proxy for assignment from identity) | 18:24 |
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| morganfainberg | public Rest APIs are not affected by this, and already reference the token_provider_api | 18:25 |
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| morganfainberg | any thoughts / concerns / "don't you dare, I have an affair with the token_api and can't let it go" ? | 18:25 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: i don't like the inconsistency with other 'driver' options :( | 18:26 |
| morganfainberg | this all driving towards making persistence of tokens through as minimal an interface as possible, so we can drop it easil. | 18:26 |
| * topol I broke up with token_api months ago\ | 18:26 | |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, i could move it to [token_persistence]/driver | 18:26 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, instead | 18:26 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: all driver's are 'persistence' drivers, right? | 18:27 |
| dolphm | drivers* | 18:27 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, i want to say no, but it was the exception to the rule and i don't remember which it is :P | 18:27 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, so, yeah i need to agree, they are. | 18:27 |
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| jamielennox | will non-persistant tokens need a driver? all will it be indicated by driver=None | 18:28 |
| jamielennox | s/all/or | 18:28 |
| morganfainberg | jamielennox, ideally that would be the way you do it. UUID would override that choice. | 18:29 |
| morganfainberg | or i could just make that logic really part of the provider | 18:29 |
| morganfainberg | only affects providers that implement persistence | 18:30 |
| bknudson | so provider=pki persistence=None ? | 18:30 |
| morganfainberg | oh wait. no, revoke by id implies need for persistence | 18:30 |
| bknudson | why does revoke by id imply persistence? | 18:30 |
| morganfainberg | there is a matrix of "needs / doesn't need" persistence. and if it needs persistence, it is configurable | 18:30 |
| bknudson | extract the issued time from the token | 18:30 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, i want to revoke all tokens for user X, how do you know the IDs of that | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, you need to search through the token persistence driver to find all the token ids belonging to user X | 18:31 |
| bknudson | oh, you're saying if you use revocation list you need persistent tokens | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, yep | 18:31 |
| bknudson | makes sense | 18:31 |
| bknudson | but if you're using revocation events then don't need persistent tokens | 18:31 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson, and "revoke_by_id" is the option [probably should be renamed to "use_revocation_list") | 18:32 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, using revocation events exclusively | 18:32 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, some environments may need both (mix of middleware?) | 18:32 |
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| bknudson | this is going to require a novel in the sample config. | 18:33 |
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| dolphm | disable the token (persistence) driver should implicitly disable revocation list, right? | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, unless you're using UUID tokens | 18:33 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: then you can't disable the persistence driver anyway | 18:34 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, ++ | 18:34 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: that should be a fatal exception on startup | 18:34 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, yes | 18:34 |
| boris-42 | morganfainberg dolphm btw guys I addressed comment about plugins for rally in keystone | 18:34 |
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| boris-42 | morganfainberg dolphm https://review.openstack.org/#/c/98836/ | 18:34 |
| boris-42 | seems like mergable=) | 18:34 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, so yes, we could disable revocation_list based on disabling the persistence | 18:34 |
| morganfainberg | might be the easiest way. | 18:35 |
| topol | morganfainberg, definitely will need some good docs to keep this all straight | 18:35 |
| morganfainberg | topol, yes we will | 18:35 |
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| bknudson | this is an opportunity for us to develop a gui | 18:35 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, can it be written in java? | 18:36 |
| dstanek | morganfainberg: go | 18:36 |
| bknudson | morganfainberg: that's the language we know! | 18:36 |
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| topol | morganfainberg, Jquery and AngularJS? | 18:36 |
| morganfainberg | so does anyone have issues with deprecating token_api internal interface? | 18:37 |
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| topol | who is gonna do the accesibility review for the GUI??? | 18:37 |
| morganfainberg | regardless of the other mechanisms we bring along (persistence vs uuid vs revocation_list) | 18:37 |
| bknudson | morganfainberg: what's the problem with it? | 18:37 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, trying to make it so anything that "stores" or "accesses" tokens from the persistence engine goes through one interface | 18:38 |
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| morganfainberg | and the provider_api duplicates a lot of functionality | 18:38 |
| * topol topol refuses to build a java GUI ever again :-) | 18:38 | |
| morganfainberg | i'd rather the provider_api be the interface for all of this stuff since it's providing the tokens, regardless of if we persist tokens to something or not | 18:38 |
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| dolphm | morganfainberg: are we still supporting gui interfaces using visual basic to track tokens? | 18:39 |
| bknudson | I'm surprised that gyee hasn't made a comment since he wrote it | 18:39 |
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| bknudson | although he's probably painting himself red white and blue | 18:39 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, only because two people were typing on the keyboard at once to build that app | 18:39 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson, we'd be keeping the token_provider_api, and just making token_api disappear in K (send a nice fat warning "HEY DONT USE THIS YOU HAVE ANOTHER OPTION") in J | 18:40 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: well then as long as the token provider API supports four hands on the keyboard at once i'm good | 18:40 |
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| raildo | morganfainberg: I was discussing at the meeting of hierarchical multitenancy about inherited roles, and we have two questions, this is a good moment to talk about that or i talk with you later? | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, sold | 18:41 |
| topol | thats a big keyboard | 18:41 |
| morganfainberg | ok i'm out of things to talk about :) | 18:41 |
| dolphm | topol: at least with a 10-kay | 18:41 |
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| henrynash | raildo: when is this meeting, btw, I’d like to attend | 18:41 |
| topol | #topic, restaurant options for the Hackathon? | 18:41 |
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| morganfainberg | topol, # some taco stand that brad will be told to meet us at after 9pm? *duck* | 18:42 |
| raildo | henrynash: friday, 16:00 UTC | 18:42 |
| henrynash | raildo: thx | 18:42 |
| topol | morganfainberg. I fixed that. Im buying drinks first night | 18:42 |
| morganfainberg | topol, (don't hurt me, and still buy the first round of drinks0 | 18:42 |
| lbragstad | What-a-burger? I hear that it's magical | 18:43 |
| morganfainberg | raildo, we are in open discussion here, if this is somehting for the wider eystone audience / meeting, this is a good time to chat | 18:43 |
| morganfainberg | raildo, if not we can chat post meeting (and post lunch for me) | 18:43 |
| jamielennox | i would love people to take a look at the series: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/95015 | 18:44 |
| raildo | morganfainberg: I was going to lunch now as well, I'll talk to you in #openstack-keystone later, ok? | 18:44 |
| henrynash | morganfainberg, dstanek, ayoung: sorry to stalk, but if one of you could (hopefully_ give the final +2 to https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102430 | 18:44 |
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| morganfainberg | raildo, sounds great | 18:44 |
| jamielennox | they are what I most need for using keystoneclient with other clients | 18:44 |
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| jamielennox | just had to update the first for a few bknudson comments - but they were doc fixups, and the code itself has been unchnaged for a while | 18:45 |
| bknudson | also, somewhat related to jamielennox reviews -- I wrote up a spec for nova to use use v3 | 18:45 |
| henrynash | morganfainberg, dstanek, ayoung: it’s teh 2nd of the 3 multi-backend uuids pacthes, just rebasing the 3rd now | 18:45 |
| dstanek | henrynash: shoudl there be some foreign key relationships in that table? or are they left our on purpose? | 18:45 |
| bknudson | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/103617/ | 18:45 |
| jamielennox | once we have that chain in, a release would be useful | 18:45 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: i don't see how that patch has anything to do with the blueprint? | 18:46 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash, i am withholding a +2 on the one i did the sql work in | 18:46 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash, otherwise i will review others | 18:46 |
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| henrynash | dstanek: so right now the mapping table is in identity…so can’t fk to assignment | 18:46 |
| bknudson | #link nova spec for use identity v3: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/103617/ | 18:46 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: there's also an open bug that sounds a lot like the bp description... have a link to that? | 18:46 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: it was sort of recent | 18:46 |
| henrynash | morganfainberg: ? | 18:46 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: a standard way of loading session and auth plugins from conf | 18:46 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: i don't know the one off the top of my head | 18:47 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash, i contributed code to https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102430/4 so i am not +2ing it :) | 18:47 |
| bknudson | jamielennox: so auth_token would change to have those config options? | 18:47 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash subsequent patches i will review. | 18:47 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: that ^ doesn't have anything to do with the bp: "so that we get the same config options everywhere. This also helps developers create the objects and means that config and CLI options will be automatically updated by changes in keystoneclient." | 18:47 |
| jamielennox | bknudson: no, the options match auth_token | 18:47 |
| dstanek | henrynash: ah, makes sense | 18:47 |
| henrynash | morganfainberg: ah, sorry got ya! | 18:47 |
| bknudson | jamielennox: and for example nova can use those options when it switches to use session for neutronclient? | 18:48 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: the patch is about registering CONF options required for the session and being able to load one from those optoins | 18:48 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: so same config options, and if we add things to register_ in ksc then we can use them in load_from_ without having to change every consumer | 18:49 |
| dstanek | henrynash: what line 26 doing https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102430/9/keystone/common/sql/migrate_repo/versions/051_add_id_mapping.py ? | 18:49 |
| jamielennox | bknudson: that's the intention | 18:49 |
| bknudson | jamielennox: but the config setup doesn't have auth plugin stuff yet? | 18:49 |
| jamielennox | bknudson: they are the reviews after that | 18:49 |
| jamielennox | they are a bit more difficult | 18:50 |
| bknudson | ok | 18:50 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: this seems to be completely missing the pain point that we're seeing in every other project using keystoneclient | 18:50 |
| henrynash | dtsanek: ahh…damn…left over from when I mistakingly DID haev a FK in there! | 18:50 |
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| henrynash | dstanek: it’s a fair cop, guv | 18:50 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: so i don't understand where this solution is coming from - where is the problem that it is solving? | 18:50 |
| dstanek | henrynash: i only got 3 files in on the latest, but i can finish up after this meeting | 18:51 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: so every service ends up with things like cacerts and usernames and passwords scattered through there config files | 18:51 |
| bknudson | there -> their | 18:51 |
| henrynash | dtsaneK; ok, great….I’ll wait for those, then re-patch as required | 18:51 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, hehe | 18:52 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: i want a standard mechanism that says create a session object from these config options and have all the config options named the same across all the projects | 18:52 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: eg heat uses ca_cert not cacert | 18:52 |
| henrynash | dstanek: thx | 18:52 |
| jamielennox | dolphm: this is more important when we get to auth_plugins | 18:52 |
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| jamielennox | dolphm: we need a way to load any auth plugin (not just username/password as in current configs) and create a client based on that | 18:52 |
| jamielennox | and we can't expect the other clients to figure out how to do that | 18:53 |
| bknudson | there's a lot of auth options that aren't going to be useful in a config file | 18:53 |
| jamielennox | so the procedure would be | 18:53 |
| jamielennox | auth = keystoneclient.auth.conf.load_from_conf(CONF, group) | 18:54 |
| jamielennox | session = keystoneclient.session.Session.load_from_conf(CONF, group, auth=auth) | 18:54 |
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| jamielennox | client = keystoneclient.client.Client(session=session) | 18:54 |
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| bknudson | or client = neutronclient.client.SessionClient(session=session) | 18:55 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: right, what you're doing is forward-looking, but the problem statement sounds like this- https://bugs.launchpad.net/python-keystoneclient/+bug/1332337 | 18:55 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1332337 in python-keystoneclient "python-keystoneclient not providing shell parameters" [Wishlist,In progress] | 18:55 |
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| jamielennox | bknudson: right | 18:55 |
| jamielennox | so he's looking at CLI | 18:56 |
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| jamielennox | that'd be: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/95678/ and https://review.openstack.org/#/c/95679/ | 18:56 |
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| jamielennox | same concepts though | 18:58 |
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| dolphm | jamielennox: this looks like the patch i was expecting: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/95680/2/keystoneclient/shell.py | 18:59 |
| dolphm | now i get it! | 18:59 |
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| bknudson | that bug says in progress but I don't see a review | 18:59 |
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| marekd | jamielennox: BTW. for the saml auth plugin i'd need to be able to pick another plugin (for IdP authN) load it and pass some params there. Of course params would differ per idp-authN plugin. Do you think we should make it somehow hierarchic or maybe try to squeeze parameters in one group/section, for both plugins (Unscoped token plugin and idp-auth plugin) | 19:00 |
| dolphm | bknudson: re-assigned :-/ wish i had known about jamie's work sooner | 19:00 |
| dolphm | (time) | 19:00 |
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| dolphm | #endmeeting | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 1 19:01:24 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-07-01-18.03.html | 19:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-07-01-18.03.txt | 19:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-07-01-18.03.log.html | 19:01 |
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| clarkb | o/ | 19:02 |
| fungi | hey-o | 19:02 |
| jeblair | ... | 19:02 |
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| hashar | <(-_-)^ | 19:02 |
| mordred | o/ | 19:02 |
| jesusaurus | o/ | 19:02 |
| ianw | o/ | 19:02 |
| krotscheck | \o/ | 19:02 |
| jeblair | #startmeeting infra | 19:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 1 19:02:58 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:02 |
| wenlock | o/ | 19:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:03 |
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| zaro | o/ | 19:03 |
| jeblair | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting | 19:03 |
| krtaylor | o/ | 19:03 |
| jeblair | agenda ^ | 19:03 |
| jeblair | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-06-24-19.02.html | 19:03 |
| jeblair | last meeting ^ | 19:03 |
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| jeblair | #topic Actions from last meeting | 19:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:03 | |
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| jeblair | so there aren't any on the list, however we did do some renames | 19:03 |
| fungi | yeah, that we did | 19:03 |
| jeblair | a bunch (but not all) of the murano projects were moved to stackforge-attic | 19:04 |
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| jeblair | bash8 -> bashate | 19:04 |
| jeblair | and designate moved to openstack | 19:04 |
| fungi | along with its subprojects | 19:04 |
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| fungi | (client, specs) | 19:04 |
| jeblair | we had to disable the bash8 devstack job temporarily, but i believe that's been re-enabled, yeat? | 19:04 |
| jeblair | yeah? | 19:04 |
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| fungi | yes | 19:04 |
| jeblair | cool. i haven't heard about any problems | 19:05 |
| fungi | i approved the revert as soon as i got the last image update to complete (required a retry in one region because the first attempt hung) | 19:05 |
| jeblair | we have a few more changes to the rename docs pending as a result of that | 19:05 |
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| zaro | i think clarkb did trusty and updated build-timeout plugin | 19:05 |
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| clarkb | I did, and approved the changes to start using the new build timeout plugin | 19:06 |
| jeblair | (catching up with puppet procedural changes) | 19:06 |
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| jeblair | #topic Announcement: Next Bug Day Tuesday July 8th starting at 17:00 UTC (pleia2) | 19:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcement: Next Bug Day Tuesday July 8th starting at 17:00 UTC (pleia2) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:06 | |
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| jeblair | not sure if pleia2 was here, but i'm sure if she were, she would want to say: "Next Bug Day Tuesday July 8th starting at 17:00 UTC" | 19:07 |
| mordred | in a fit of consistency, I will be out in an all-day managers meeting july 8th | 19:07 |
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| jeblair | mordred: so we can expect quite a bit of work from you as you seek to escape the tedium! | 19:07 |
| pleia2 | o/ | 19:07 |
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| pleia2 | I'll prep the etherpad the evening before so we can get started quickly in the morning of the 8th | 19:08 |
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| jeblair | we should make sure this is our last bug day. i don't want to be using launchpad by the time the next one rolls around. | 19:08 |
| mordred | ++ | 19:08 |
| pleia2 | that would be great | 19:09 |
| jeblair | #topic F20 jobs (ianw 7/1) | 19:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "F20 jobs (ianw 7/1) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:09 | |
| ianw | hi | 19:09 |
| ianw | thanks for reviews on https://review.openstack.org/101110 (Track last allocations to ensure forward-progress) | 19:09 |
| jeblair | it has 2x+2s now | 19:09 |
| ianw | who else can look at it | 19:09 |
| jeblair | if anyone else wants to look it over, we can wait, otherwise, we can merge it now | 19:10 |
| clarkb | I am reasonably confident in it because the added tests are great :) | 19:10 |
| jeblair | derekh_: ^ fyi | 19:10 |
| ianw | 2) i've started to look at centos7 testing | 19:10 |
| mordred | ianw: thanks for the work on that! | 19:11 |
| jeblair | oh, ha! rhel7 released while i was out in the wilderness! | 19:11 |
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| ianw | https://review.openstack.org/103735 & https://review.openstack.org/103458 | 19:11 |
| fungi | i too missed that event | 19:11 |
| ianw | i would love to get an early experimental job started | 19:11 |
| ianw | even if on just one provider | 19:12 |
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| ianw | however, i'm not sure where i'd get the images from | 19:12 |
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| ianw | i'd love some contacts for either hp or rackspace who i could talk to | 19:12 |
| derekh_ | jeblair: seen the review been catching up after 2 weeks off, can give it a whirl later if ye want and add another +1 (hopefully) | 19:12 |
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| mordred | ianw: we're getting close on having dib-based images for nodepool | 19:13 |
| ianw | so we could discuss early centos7 images and how we could test them | 19:13 |
| mordred | ianw: do they have published images for early centos7? | 19:13 |
| ianw | mordred: yeah, i still have to spin that up and test out fedora builds there | 19:13 |
| ianw | next on my todo :) | 19:13 |
| mordred | sweet | 19:13 |
| clarkb | derekh_: awesome that would be good | 19:13 |
| ianw | mordred: yes, there is a centos7 nightly stuff happening | 19:13 |
| jeblair | ianw: the ideal is that we will soon provide our own images using dib and glance; but until that works, our process depends on hp and rax having base images | 19:14 |
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| ianw | mordred: http://buildlogs.centos.org/centos/7/cloud/CentOS-7-Broken-20140620-Nightly.qcow2 is one i've been using | 19:14 |
| mordred | ianw: I love that it has broken in the name | 19:14 |
| fungi | the filename of that is rather inspiring | 19:14 |
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| fungi | jinx | 19:14 |
| ianw | jeblair: yes, for sure, that's why i'd like to see if hp & rax have any "secret menu" etc where we could get a beta image just to smoke-test | 19:15 |
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| mordred | but honestly, if that exists, then it's a piece of cake to make a dib image on top of | 19:15 |
| jeblair | ianw: *nod* | 19:15 |
| fungi | looks like 101110 *just* got a new patchset courtesy of tchaypo | 19:16 |
| clarkb | wait what | 19:16 |
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| fungi | oh, he edited the commit message | 19:16 |
| clarkb | but why | 19:16 |
| fungi | (through the gerrit webui) | 19:16 |
| bcrochet | o/ | 19:17 |
| fungi | to add Closes-Bug: #1308407 | 19:17 |
| jeblair | now it doesn't have 2x+2s :( | 19:17 |
| clarkb | argle bargle | 19:17 |
| clarkb | and no tchaypo here to argue with | 19:17 |
| clarkb | :P | 19:17 |
| ianw | oh | 19:18 |
| jeblair | i think i trust that review comment, so it should be a pretty easy re-review | 19:18 |
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| clarkb | yeah should be quick | 19:18 |
| jeblair | ianw: thanks for taking on centos7! anything further? | 19:18 |
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| ianw | so yeah, if anyone has any nicks i can ping on the image issue, that would be great. otherwise, i'll get to the dib path soon | 19:19 |
| ianw | other than that, no, thanks | 19:19 |
| jeblair | #topic Zuul Cloner patch, a port to python of the devstack shell script cloning repositories | 19:20 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Zuul Cloner patch, a port to python of the devstack shell script cloning repositories (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:20 | |
| nibalizer | o/ im back | 19:20 |
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| jeblair | hashar: ping! | 19:20 |
| hashar | hello | 19:20 |
| hashar | Zuul cloner, basically a port to python of the devstack shell script that clones your repositories. | 19:20 |
| hashar | at wikimedia we have a similar need to clone various repo and run integration tests of the result | 19:21 |
| hashar | I am too lazy to adjust a shell script so went mad and ported it to python | 19:21 |
| hashar | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/70373/ | 19:21 |
| hashar | It is very basic for now but should fetch appropriate Zuul ref and fallback to a given branch or master | 19:21 |
| hashar | Example output for a job on MediaWiki branch REL1_23: | 19:21 |
| hashar | #link https://integration.wikimedia.org/ci/job/mediawiki-core-extensions-integration/48/consoleFull | 19:21 |
| clarkb | out of curiousity where did the devstack function break? | 19:21 |
| hashar | It has the basic functionalities, would need some help writing some basic integration tests. | 19:21 |
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| clarkb | it should be reasonably flexible but I am sure there were issues | 19:22 |
| hashar | I am hoping you guys would be interested in eventually migrating the devstack shell of doom to that python code base | 19:22 |
| jeblair | this is really cool, and i believe in the future we will move to using it for devstack-gate, and then start using it for other integration jobs, and we can stop abusing devstack-gate for that purpose | 19:22 |
| mordred | ++ | 19:22 |
| hashar | it is a long way though. The python part only support very basic functionality. It does not have hardcoded branches for some specific projects you have. But I believe we have a good base to be build upon. | 19:22 |
| fungi | yeah, the integration cloning logic in d-g is not really well suited to shell anyway, and benefits from being in python i think | 19:22 |
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| hashar | the idea came when looking turbo hipster and talking with Joshua. He was more or less rewriting part of the devstack script. So I though cloning should be a core feature of Zuul so other third parties could reuse it easily. | 19:23 |
| hashar | not much to say. Wanted to make sure all of you guys know about the patch and eventually give it a try :] | 19:24 |
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| hashar | done (sorry long read) | 19:24 |
| jeblair | hashar: thanks, i'm very excited about it -- i'm hoping to review it soon, and maybe help out a bit :) | 19:24 |
| clarkb | yaeh I think putting that stuff in zuul is a great idea | 19:25 |
| clarkb | I still think it may help me review it if there are some examples of the issues with the other thing | 19:25 |
| clarkb | basically items to be on the lookout for when reviewing that change and others | 19:25 |
| jeblair | clarkb: i think the biggest issue is that devstack-gate comes with a lot of devstack baggage | 19:26 |
| clarkb | oh I see | 19:26 |
| jeblair | devstack-gate has unit tests for the cloning functionality, so we may want to make sure that those scenarios end up in the zuul-cloner too | 19:26 |
| hashar | I made it project agnostic. But there is a feature known as clone map which let you clone a repo at a specific place (I need that for mediawiki) | 19:26 |
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| jeblair | #topic Puppet 3 Master (nibalizer) | 19:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Puppet 3 Master (nibalizer) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:27 | |
| nibalizer | hi | 19:27 |
| nibalizer | so it sounds like i have some consesus to fire up a p3 master | 19:27 |
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| nibalizer | i think that means we need someone to provision a node, and a core to sit with me and we'll poke it till it works | 19:28 |
| jeblair | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/83678/ | 19:28 |
| nibalizer | i'm somewhat concerned that the 3.6.2 feature 'directory environments' will bone us | 19:28 |
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| nibalizer | so im consideriing ammending that reveiw to pin puppet to 3.4 | 19:28 |
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| nibalizer | since 3.5 was buggy as all heck | 19:28 |
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| nibalizer | is there anyone who would be willing to work with me on getting the p3 node up? | 19:29 |
| jeblair | what does 'directory environments' do? | 19:29 |
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| nibalizer | it depercates the modulepath environment variable, as well as manifest and a few others | 19:29 |
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| jeblair | #link http://docs.puppetlabs.com/puppet/latest/reference/environments.html | 19:30 |
| nibalizer | now you specify an envionment directory and in that directory each sub directory is an environment and has its own config file to set things like modulepath | 19:30 |
| hashar | Wikimedia migrated recently and has puppet 3.4.3 (ships with Ubuntu Precise) | 19:30 |
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| nibalizer | there has been a lot of confused users on the puppet-users mailing list and on irc having trouble with changes in 3.6.2 | 19:30 |
| hashar | might be relevant, some of our ops build a tool to compile catalog with 2.7 and 3.4 and output the resulting diff ( we got 3.4.3 ). Came very handy to ensure our puppet were still compatible. | 19:31 |
| nibalizer | ya that thing is super sweet | 19:31 |
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| jesusaurus | whats the name of that tool? | 19:31 |
| jesusaurus | is it open source? | 19:31 |
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| jeblair | nibalizer: i should be able to help spin up a node tomorrow | 19:32 |
| hashar | #link http://git.wikimedia.org/tree/operations%2Fsoftware.git/master/compare-puppet-catalogs | 19:32 |
| hashar | sorry | 19:32 |
| nibalizer | jeblair: excellent, you're PDT right? what time works for you? | 19:32 |
| nibalizer | I have stuff in the morning so evening is preferable for me | 19:32 |
| hashar | jeblair: license is GPLv2 | 19:32 |
| hashar | jesusaurus: license is GPLv2 | 19:32 |
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| jesusaurus | awesome, thanks | 19:33 |
| jeblair | nibalizer: not evening, so much; i'd want to start before 2pm probably | 19:33 |
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| nibalizer | start at noon? start at 1? | 19:34 |
| jeblair | nibalizer: clarkb or mordred tend to hang around later if you wanted to try to ping them | 19:34 |
| jeblair | nibalizer: 1pm wfm | 19:34 |
| nibalizer | lets do that | 19:34 |
| nibalizer | i meant afternoon anyways | 19:34 |
| fungi | i'd be happy to help too, though my timezone doesn't overlap as much so unless you like getting up early ;) | 19:34 |
| jeblair | ok cool | 19:35 |
| jeblair | #action nibalizer and jeblair to spin up a puppet3 master | 19:35 |
| jeblair | #topic Open discussion | 19:35 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:35 | |
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| clarkb | the elasticsearch situation is slightly better this week than last (sdague has done some work to cleanup problem logs) | 19:36 |
| clarkb | but still not great | 19:36 |
| hashar | nibalizer: feel free to ask about wikimedia puppet 3 migration in #wikimedia-operations | 19:36 |
| jeblair | clarkb: how's the ssd test going? | 19:36 |
| clarkb | mordred has pinged rax about it to see if we can have a discussion about the best way to deal with the problem | 19:36 |
| fungi | since nobody has provided a compelling argument for git-review 2.0, i'm going ahead with 1.24. writing up release notes this evening, i'll link an etherpad in #-infra later for perusal | 19:36 |
| clarkb | jeblair: I haven't done the ssd yet because I was hoping mordred would get a quick response but I haven't heard anything so I should probably go ahead and start that this afternoon | 19:36 |
| clarkb | any opposition to that? eg to wait a bit longer for word from rax? | 19:37 |
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| * krotscheck has lots of big storyboard patches up. | 19:37 | |
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| jeblair | clarkb: yeah, let's give it a shot | 19:37 |
| clarkb | fungi: ++ | 19:37 |
| jeblair | clarkb: learn what we can | 19:37 |
| clarkb | jeblair: ok I will start working on that as the game happens this afternoon | 19:37 |
| fungi | also, i missed that we have several git-review bugs where reporters simply attached patches as diffs, and some fix (albeit low-priority) bugs. i suppose they can wait for after release to get git-am'd in | 19:37 |
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| jeblair | i have nearly, but not quite, worked through my vacation-related review backlog | 19:38 |
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| clarkb | krotscheck: scary js multi k line changes? | 19:39 |
| pleia2 | I sent a note to the list earlier I'd like feedback on http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2014-July/001471.html have my local (my hpcloud account) demo of zanata up and running at http://15.126.233.162:8080/zanata/ | 19:39 |
| krotscheck | clarkb: I tried to break them up! | 19:39 |
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| jeblair | krotscheck: remind me again, what would be needed to make the docs-draft deploys of the js code work against prod? | 19:40 |
| pleia2 | I called WildFly the community open source version, but it seems to not entirely be a clone, but instead more like "another java application server that should do what jboss enterprise does" | 19:40 |
| clarkb | fungi: ya I think we should get into a habit of releasing more often if git review is going to be active which it has been | 19:40 |
| krotscheck | jeblair: Configuration injection into the build, plus CORS support in pecan. | 19:40 |
| clarkb | fungi: then the cost of applying a few bugfixes and releasing is low | 19:40 |
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| clarkb | pleia2: so it is magic? | 19:41 |
| fungi | clarkb: agreed. i meant to release more often, but have fallen down on the job (ENOTIME, as is the case for everyone else too) | 19:41 |
| pleia2 | clarkb: something like that | 19:41 |
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| jeblair | krotscheck: anybody doing cors in pecan? and do you think it would be safe to enable if it did? | 19:41 |
| fungi | pleia2: awesome, btw! | 19:42 |
| jeblair | regarding the meetup: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Qa_Infra_Meetup_2014 | 19:42 |
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| jeblair | there are som potential sprint topics listed | 19:42 |
| hashar | fungi: lot of wikimedia/mediawiki developers are solely relying on git-review to interact with Gerrit :] | 19:42 |
| jeblair | some of them may be discussions, some of them may be hacking... | 19:42 |
| hashar | fungi: definitely helped us to enroll more volunteers. So git-review is time well spent | 19:42 |
| jeblair | does anyone have other suggestions, or feedback on those things? and would it be worthwhile to try to organize that a bit more? maybe even set a schedule? or better to play by ear? | 19:43 |
| fungi | hashar: as for us too. and thanks for the feedback! | 19:43 |
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| clarkb | jeblair: a loose scheduel would probably be a good thing | 19:43 |
| pleia2 | jeblair: I should probably add translation stuff on there too, might be good to have some high bandwidth time | 19:43 |
| clarkb | jeblair: especially if people end up skpping timeslots to see darmstadt | 19:43 |
| krotscheck | jeblair: Haven’t researched it yet. | 19:43 |
| hashar | are qa infra meetup held on a regular basis? Would love to attend one in Europe if you don't mind having me floating around. | 19:44 |
| clarkb | (I don't intend on doing that fwiw but have heard rumblings that this may happen) | 19:44 |
| jeblair | hashar: no, this is the first joint one; we had a bootcamp a year ago in nyc though | 19:44 |
| krotscheck | jeblair: Maybe? I get where you’re going though. | 19:44 |
| clarkb | jeblair: I definitely think logstash/elasticsearch sould happen given the recent issues around that | 19:45 |
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| pleia2 | hashar: you should join us :) | 19:45 |
| clarkb | (that is me being slightly selfish :) but I think it will be time well spent) | 19:45 |
| jeblair | hashar: we'd love to have you join us :) | 19:45 |
| fungi | hashar: this one is in europe... fortuitous! | 19:45 |
| hashar | I would have if knew about it earlier. I am on vacation that week and rented a place ages ago :/ | 19:45 |
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| fungi | you don't happen to be vacationing in frankfurt that week, by any chance? ;) | 19:46 |
| jeblair | hashar: does the place you rented hold 30 people? | 19:46 |
| pleia2 | hehe | 19:46 |
| hashar | lol | 19:46 |
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| jeblair | well, we always have paris. | 19:46 |
| krotscheck | We’ve always got paris! | 19:46 |
| * fungi groans | 19:46 | |
| * krotscheck fails at references | 19:47 | |
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| hashar | on topic, having past experience attending hackathon. We do it unconference style. People write down on post-it topics they are interested in, we stick them on a wall of card and thus form groups by topic | 19:47 |
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| hashar | we also have some informal short presentations during the day. 40 mins + 20 min qa. That helps bring everyone on par on those topics. | 19:47 |
| jeblair | hashar: good idea, and it may disrupt clarkb's plans to skip out and tour the city :) | 19:47 |
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| fungi | hashar: that's more or less what we're doing already, i think, just getting an early start with the wiki | 19:48 |
| hashar | ex of one i held was: creating your Jenkins job with JJB. Covered installation, code base, yaml template, our jobs, how to set it up + demo. | 19:48 |
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| clarkb | jeblair: I am saving the touring for post paris | 19:48 |
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| fungi | hashar: but yes, i've been to a few barcamps which used that model too and i agree it works quite well | 19:49 |
| hashar | we usually tour the city in the evening and end up in a bar. The city tour is a good way to relax before the exhausting round of beers / crazy night discussion | 19:49 |
| jeblair | i think we're planning on doing a lot of presentation style stuff during the first 2 days, to try to get as many people up to speed as possible, but then the rest of the week is more freeform | 19:49 |
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| wenlock | o/ you probably have seen me poking around a bit, i wanted to let folks know that work ive been working on was released last week. we are downstream from a lot of work you are doing on config. | 19:49 |
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| wenlock | ty for your help up to now. this allowed us to create forj.io | 19:49 |
| fungi | i do think at least a presentation pitch phase would be helpful, in case there are some presentations which nobody really thinks they're going to benefit from after all | 19:50 |
| jeblair | so yeah, maybe we should identify which of those topics would make good mini-presentations, or discussions, and which are hacking, and try to break things up and loosly schedule them | 19:50 |
| hashar | fungi: yeah that is similar to bar camps indeed | 19:50 |
| pleia2 | wenlock: great :) | 19:50 |
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| fungi | jeblair: agreed | 19:50 |
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| clarkb | ++ | 19:50 |
| fungi | wenlock: that's awesome | 19:50 |
| hashar | I am usually not productive during such hacking sessions. But get a ton of crazy ideas that are implemented post event. | 19:50 |
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| wenlock | im hoping with time i can contribute some improvements upstream as well, so we have even lest modules we've had to fork | 19:52 |
| wenlock | *less | 19:52 |
| hashar | if I take "Nodepool enhancements", you could have a presentation of nodepool, the problem it has, feature it lacks. Then brainstorm to create a backlog of items to produce for the next few months or so. | 19:52 |
| jeblair | wenlock: any chance you'll be able to attend the meetup in germany? | 19:52 |
| hashar | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Qa_Infra_Meetup_2014 | 19:53 |
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| jeblair | wenlock: or oscon the following week? | 19:53 |
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| mordred | wenlock: either or both of those would be awesome for you to come to | 19:53 |
| jeblair | wenlock: one of the things i want to discuss is making sure we have a good roadmap for how to make infra reusable downstream, and thereby facilitate upstream contributions | 19:53 |
| jeblair | so would love to have you involved :) | 19:54 |
| wenlock | jeblair whish's i knew earlier, i would have asked mordred for a ticket, hehe | 19:54 |
| wenlock | *wishes | 19:54 |
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| mordred | wenlock: I can still go talk to people about getting you approved to go | 19:54 |
| * fungi suspects mordred can fit it into his budget ;) | 19:54 | |
| mordred | well, wenlock doesn't work for me, so that's harder ... | 19:55 |
| hashar | is that https://www.forj.io/ based on Zuul openstack toolchain ? | 19:55 |
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| fungi | mordred: ahh, too bad | 19:55 |
| mordred | but maybe a trip to portland during oscon wouldn't break wenlock's team's budget | 19:55 |
| wenlock | true ture | 19:55 |
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| wenlock | im going to be up in Portland weekend of Aug 1-4 | 19:55 |
| wenlock | but for fundraiser stuff | 19:55 |
| wenlock | + vacation | 19:55 |
| jeblair | oscon is july 20-24 | 19:55 |
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| fungi | it's a great place for a vacation | 19:56 |
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| wenlock | where is oscon? links? | 19:56 |
| clarkb | also great for brewing beer | 19:56 |
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| wenlock | i bet i can get that goign | 19:56 |
| jeblair | wenlock: http://www.oscon.com/oscon2014 | 19:56 |
| fungi | wenlock: in the convention center downtown | 19:56 |
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| wenlock | awesome, i'll be checking that one out. try to get my approval | 19:57 |
| zaro | hashar: yes, it is. | 19:57 |
| hashar | zaro: maybe forj.io could entirely replace me so :-] | 19:57 |
| jeblair | wenlock: there's probably no need to register for the actual conference if you don't want -- i think we're mostly focusing on the hallway track :) | 19:57 |
| jeblair | wenlock: or rather, the bar track | 19:57 |
| clarkb | this | 19:57 |
| zaro | hashar: unlikely. more for simpler stuff | 19:57 |
| fungi | jeblair: or clarkb's beer barrel track | 19:58 |
| clarkb | I haev 15 gallons of the stuff now | 19:58 |
| jeblair | right, that's the actual thing | 19:58 |
| clarkb | I expect you guys to help | 19:58 |
| pleia2 | a quick fyi, I'm missing oscon to get my gallbladder out (we finally found out what is wrong) | 19:58 |
| fungi | my liver is primed and ready | 19:58 |
| clarkb | pleia2: oh no :( | 19:58 |
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| clarkb | but I guess good to know what is wrong | 19:58 |
| pleia2 | clarkb: yeah, no fun, but at least a solution! | 19:59 |
| fungi | pleia2: oh, ouch | 19:59 |
| zaro | clarkb: hmm, maybe worth a short trip :) | 19:59 |
| jeblair | pleia2: sorry to hear that (but glad you know); we'll drink to your health. :) | 19:59 |
| pleia2 | jeblair: much appreciated :) | 19:59 |
| fungi | and we're at time! | 20:00 |
| jeblair | thanks everyone! | 20:00 |
| jeblair | #endmeeting | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:00 | |
| pleia2 | thanks jeblair | 20:00 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 1 20:00:10 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-07-01-19.02.html | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-07-01-19.02.txt | 20:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-07-01-19.02.log.html | 20:00 |
| ttx | Anyone here for the TC meeting ? | 20:00 |
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| mikal | . | 20:00 |
| markmc | hey | 20:00 |
| jbryce | ttx: aye | 20:00 |
| devananda | o/ | 20:00 |
| jeblair | o/ | 20:00 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 20:00 |
| ttx | russellb, annegentle, mordred, vishy, markmcclain, jaypipes, sdague: around ? | 20:01 |
| russellb | o/ | 20:01 |
| ttx | zehicle: you there ? | 20:01 |
| mordred | o/ | 20:01 |
| mordred | ttx: (I hurt my neck a little while ago, so I'm only mostly lurking) | 20:01 |
| vishy | o/ | 20:01 |
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| annegent_ | o/ | 20:01 |
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| ttx | we have quorum on the TC side | 20:02 |
| zehicle_at_dell | o/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: o/ | 20:02 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | o/ | 20:02 |
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| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 1 20:02:18 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:02 |
| ttx | So today is the Defcore-specific TC meeting that was requested last week | 20:02 |
| ttx | I had several discussions with TC members to try to clearly identify key concerns and questions | 20:02 |
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| ttx | They fell into 3 main categories, which will form our agenda for today | 20:02 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee | 20:03 |
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| ttx | #topic Scope of Defcore | 20:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Scope of Defcore (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:03 | |
| markmc | ttx, do we want to give josh a minute? | 20:03 |
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| markmc | he did say he was going to be here | 20:03 |
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| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: is someone else from defcore supposed to attend? | 20:03 |
| ttx | shall we wait? | 20:03 |
| markmc | http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/defcore-committee/2014-June/000221.html | 20:04 |
| zehicle_at_dell | I did not get specific RSVPs | 20:04 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | but thought we had some people say they would join | 20:04 |
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| troytoman1 | I am here if needed | 20:04 |
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| ttx | I just don't want to lose too much of our precious single-topic meeting time | 20:05 |
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| markmc | ttx, cool | 20:05 |
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| dhellmann | we're ~10% into the meeting, maybe we should go ahead and circle back if josh joins late? | 20:05 |
| ttx | I guess we can wait a bit more | 20:05 |
| russellb | we're 5 minutes in *shrug* | 20:05 |
| markmc | let's go | 20:05 |
| markmc | :) | 20:05 |
| russellb | yup | 20:05 |
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| ttx | so this topic is about... | 20:05 |
| ttx | what exactly are the trademark use cases being targeted ? | 20:05 |
| ttx | It might be clear from Defcore standpoint, but we found conflicting documentation on that topic | 20:06 |
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| ttx | And the answer affects a lot how strongly the TC feels about some issues | 20:06 |
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| ttx | Our guess was that the capabilities/designated sections approach would be used for the "OpenStack-powered" trademark license program | 20:06 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: Is that a correct guess ? | 20:06 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | yes | 20:06 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | that was the expectation | 20:07 |
| mikal | So to be clear... | 20:07 |
| markmc | ttx, and similar licenses like $VENDOR OpenStack as explained by sparkyc | 20:07 |
| zehicle_at_dell | trademark would require using designated sections and passing required tests | 20:07 |
| mikal | We're talking about "FooTron powered by OpenStack" | 20:07 |
| mikal | Not "FooTron OpenStack" | 20:07 |
| mikal | Yes? | 20:07 |
| markmc | mikal, both | 20:07 |
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| sparkyc | both | 20:07 |
| markmc | commerical trademark license agreements administered by the foundation | 20:07 |
| zehicle_at_dell | there is a community use for the trademark that is not commercial | 20:07 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: "powered by openstack" trademark program would require using designated sections and passing required tests ? | 20:08 |
| sparkyc | yep | 20:08 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | there are really three uses: commercial, community & code | 20:08 |
| mikal | So, I thought the "powered by" mark was a runner up prize | 20:08 |
| mikal | Am I confused? | 20:08 |
| zehicle_at_dell | ttx, yes | 20:08 |
| dhellmann | so this is for all 3 uses, not just the powered-by use? | 20:08 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | mikal, no. that's the primary mark | 20:08 |
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| mikal | i.e. powered by was for people who didn't comply with the full defcore requirements? | 20:08 |
| markmc | mikal, yeah, there's *potential* for an "OpenStack API Compatible" type trademark program in future; not agreed on yet | 20:08 |
| zehicle_at_dell | dhellmann, NO. it;s only for commerical | 20:08 |
| zaneb | it seems backwards to be designating the sections that are OpenStack. Shouldn't everything be designated by default and then we identify the legitimate plugin points? | 20:08 |
| markmc | mikal, that would be the "runner up" | 20:08 |
| mikal | markmc: ahhh, ok | 20:08 |
| zehicle_at_dell | To my knowledge, Compatible is for drivers / plug-ins | 20:09 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: is Defcore about defining more than the Powered by openStack trademark license program ? | 20:09 |
| russellb | zaneb: we're not to that part yet :) | 20:09 |
| dhellmann | zehicle_at_dell: ok | 20:09 |
| zehicle_at_dell | what do you mean "runner up" | 20:09 |
| zehicle_at_dell | that's not clear | 20:09 |
| mikal | zehicle_at_dell: someone who doesn't ship all the required bits | 20:09 |
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| jbryce | mikal: openstack powered = things built with openstack software; openstack compatible = things build on top of openstack or plugging into, emulating, etc | 20:09 |
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| mikal | So, for example... | 20:09 |
| zehicle_at_dell | you could not call it openstack if you did not have the required bits AND pass the tests | 20:09 |
| mikal | If I rewrote nova in quickbasic | 20:10 |
| jbryce | openstack powered includes things like appliances, converged hardware/software products, distrubitions | 20:10 |
| zehicle_at_dell | there is no "runner up" - it's a binary thing | 20:10 |
| devananda | is the intent for the outcome of DefCore to apply equally to all commercial trademark applications, or to create a test between different trademarks ("OpenStack" vs "Powered by OpenStack" vs "OpenStack Compatible", for example) | 20:10 |
| mikal | I could not get "FooTron OpenStack", or "FooTron powered by OpenStack" | 20:10 |
| zehicle_at_dell | of course, it's Apache2 so, you could use the code without using the trademark | 20:10 |
| jbryce | mikal: nove in quickbasic would not be powered by openstack and you would not get either | 20:10 |
| mikal | But I might one day be able to get "FooTron OpenStack Compatible" | 20:10 |
| jbryce | mikal: correct | 20:10 |
| mikal | jbryce: cool. Just wanting to be super clear on this point | 20:10 |
| vishy | DefCore is only dealing with one trademark currently | 20:10 |
| zehicle_at_dell | mikal, no | 20:10 |
| markmc | zehicle_at_dell, there is potential for "OpenStack API Compatible" mark for products that just meet the API requirements, but not the designated sections requirements | 20:10 |
| zehicle_at_dell | that's not the way Compatible is currently defined | 20:10 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: when you say "you could not call it openstack" you mean you cannot use the "Powered by OpenStack" trademark license program, right ? | 20:11 |
| zehicle_at_dell | markmc, yes. that's a potential but not under discussion at this time | 20:11 |
| markmc | zehicle_at_dell, as I said, not agreed on - but important TC understands the potential is there; helps clarify "OpenStack Powered" | 20:11 |
| ttx | sorry to insist but that's a key question | 20:11 |
| zehicle_at_dell | ttx, yes. control of the trademark is the only real power that we have | 20:11 |
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| sparkyc | focus is on the OpenStack powered in this phase afaik | 20:11 |
| markmc | zehicle_at_dell, we really need precision here - you mean "control of the requirements for the commercial trademark licenses" | 20:12 |
| sparkyc | for commercial contexts | 20:12 |
| jbryce | openstack powered is for any product (cloud, appliance, distribution) that includes the community-developed software | 20:12 |
| markmc | zehicle_at_dell, that confusion is all this item on the agenda is hoping to clear up | 20:12 |
| russellb | and not defining "openstack" itself | 20:12 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | markmc, it's about controlling who can use the trademark. that's the power the Foundation has | 20:12 |
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| markmc | zehicle_at_dell, *for commercial uses* | 20:13 |
| mordred | zehicle_at_dell: the specific scope of the trademark is what we're trying to clarify | 20:13 |
| jbryce | capabilities and designated sections are meant to set the bounds on what is required for those products to be able to sign an openstack powerd license agreement | 20:13 |
| zehicle_at_dell | really, the foundation manages ALL THREE of the uses cases | 20:13 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | has to or we'd lose control of the mark | 20:13 |
| mordred | because it changes how we're thinking about what it says to respond to it | 20:13 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | BUT DefCore is only concerned about the commerical use | 20:13 |
| ttx | so it's about the "OpenStack" trademark, not just the Powered by OpenStack" trademark license program | 20:13 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | for DefCore, it's only about the commercial ones | 20:13 |
| ttx | Ah. | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | zehicle_at_dell: and that's | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | oops | 20:13 |
| sparkyc | exactly | 20:14 |
| dhellmann | and that's "powered by" not "compatible", right? | 20:14 |
| mordred | can someone please restate this very clearly - I am still not clear on scope | 20:14 |
| zehicle_at_dell | dhellmann, I believe it's both. those are both commericial | 20:14 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | but we're mainly focused on Powered By right now | 20:14 |
| sparkyc | compatible to be considered in future phase | 20:14 |
| zehicle_at_dell | there was some activity around the Compatiblie mark too | 20:14 |
| ttx | mordred: I think what zehicle_at_dell means by "commercial uses of the trademark" is what we mean by "commercial trademark license programs" | 20:14 |
| zehicle_at_dell | but that is not moving as fast | 20:14 |
| sparkyc | if we get powered right we have a great starting point | 20:14 |
| vishy | the current scope doesn’t include it | 20:15 |
| dhellmann | ok, well, if my answer today is going to be used for both then I would like to understand the intent of both clearly | 20:15 |
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| ttx | and by we I mean the bylaws | 20:15 |
| jbryce | dhellmann: powered by = built with community-developed openstack software (therefore capabilities and designated sections are relevant); compatible = built around the software, more api based. may tie into capabilities for instance, but still has to be fleshed out | 20:15 |
| zehicle_at_dell | vishy, yes. we intentioanlly keep DefCore narrow | 20:15 |
| vishy | dhellman_: the designated sectrions and capabilities only apply to the powered by mark | 20:15 |
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| sparkyc | yes | 20:16 |
| zehicle_at_dell | vishy, yes. | 20:16 |
| dhellmann | jbryce: so would compatible be part of what we're asking to designate, with substitutions, or would it be a layer above (apps) or below (drivers)? | 20:16 |
| dhellmann | vishy: ok, thanks | 20:16 |
| ttx | Let me try to summarize: | 20:16 |
| devananda | I gather the "Compatible" mark is not being discussed now, but I'm still not clear if we're talking about the commercial use of the "OpenStack" trademark or the "Powered by OpenStack" trademark or both. | 20:16 |
| ttx | "DefCore is only about the commercial uses of the trademark -- currently, only the "Powered by OpenStack" trademark license program" | 20:16 |
| markmc | summary - "the capabilities and designated sections defined through the DefCore process is only immediately intended to be used in the context of the 'OpenStack Powered' commercial trademark license agreement' | 20:16 |
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| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: does that work for you ? | 20:16 |
| jbryce | dhellmann: compatible would most likely have no designated code requirements. it could include management software for instance, that only integrates with the api but never implements any openstack | 20:16 |
| zehicle_at_dell | +1 | 20:16 |
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| ttx | #agreed the capabilities and designated sections defined through the DefCore process is only immediately intended to be used in the context of the 'OpenStack Powered' commercial trademark license agreement | 20:16 |
| ttx | #agreed DefCore is only about the commercial uses of the trademark -- currently, only the "Powered by OpenStack" trademark license program | 20:17 |
| devananda | ttx: thanks | 20:17 |
| ttx | OK, let's move on | 20:17 |
| ttx | Lots to cover | 20:17 |
| sparkyc | yup | 20:17 |
| ttx | #topic Defcore Capabilities | 20:17 |
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| dhellmann | jbryce: ok, I'm trying to understand if compatible would allow for something that looks like an openstack service but isn't our code | 20:17 |
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| ttx | Our answer on scoring the "Aligns with Technical Direction" columns is almost finalized | 20:17 |
| ttx | We have two governance reviews up (initial scoring, clarification of 0.5 scores) to address that: | 20:17 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/100721 | 20:17 |
| ttx | #link https://review.openstack.org/100722 | 20:17 |
| ttx | There is a bit of confusion about capabilities though, mostly because they seem to be only defined in a json file that maps to test names | 20:17 |
| ttx | If those are to form the basis of a trademark license program, our suggestion would be to document 1-2 sentences about the intent of each capability, with the tests used as a backup definition | 20:18 |
| markmc | dhellmann, my understanding on that - potentially yes, but not agreed on by the board yet | 20:18 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | ttx, we'd love for that to happen | 20:18 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | I think it would be a very power thing for the community | 20:18 |
| dhellmann | markmc: ok, that feels very different from how it is being presented here in this meeting, though, almost like another type of license | 20:18 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: cool | 20:18 |
| jbryce | dhellmann: that is not currently allowed by the existing license, but it has definitely been talked about as a potential additional use for that license | 20:18 |
| zehicle_at_dell | troytoman make a great start with the capabilities list BUT it still has a long way to go | 20:18 |
| ttx | The second question on capabilities would be to clarify the relationship between capabilities and designated sections | 20:18 |
| zehicle_at_dell | we did not expect DefCore to own that | 20:18 |
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| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: My understanding was that the "OpenStack-powered" trademark license program would apply to those which run designated sections *and* appeared to implement capabilities | 20:19 |
| troytoman1 | ttx: that was the intention but the work needs to be done. i have been planning to work on that but was waiting for some of the processes to settle to make editing the json feasible | 20:19 |
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| ttx | troytoman: I don't think that prevents us from answering, just makes it a bit more time-consuming | 20:19 |
| zehicle_at_dell | ttx, yes. Appeared = passed tests for those cabilities | 20:19 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: But there is wording in some defcore etherpads that seem to suggest that designated sections could be nullified by excluding capabilities | 20:20 |
| troytoman1 | ttx: understood. | 20:20 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | troytoman and ttx, and that's what's in the JSON file | 20:20 |
| zehicle_at_dell | we have to have a single source of truth for capabilities (which tests and the description) | 20:20 |
| zehicle_at_dell | ttx, exteending?? | 20:20 |
| jbryce | dhellmann: the openstack compatible license does not allow for the same naming rights as the openstack powered license. for instance, you can never called something “FooTron OpenStack” under the compatible license. you can only say things like “FooTron Widget compatible with OpenStack” | 20:20 |
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| dhellmann | jbryce: ok | 20:21 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | that's a surprise. I do not remember any disucssion where we talked about capabilities beyond those covered by the reference implementation | 20:21 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | IMHO that would be a failure | 20:21 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/DefCoreLighthouse.F2F (lines 96-102) | 20:21 |
| zehicle_at_dell | (and I can point to past cases where a licensed implementation did that and it was bad) | 20:21 |
| ttx | maybe we misread that | 20:21 |
| zehicle_at_dell | Swift creates interesting discussion | 20:22 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | but it's a bit of a single item compared the the broader questions | 20:22 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: ok, you confirm that it should be an AND | 20:22 |
| zehicle_at_dell | happy to spend time on it, but it's not necessarily the common case | 20:22 |
| ttx | capabilities AND designated sections | 20:22 |
| zehicle_at_dell | ttx, YES | 20:22 |
| jeblair | jbryce: the "Powered by OpenStack" program also supports calling something "FooTron OpenStack"? | 20:22 |
| ttx | so they do not intersect | 20:23 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | ttx, that was the specific work hammered out in the spider cycle where we did the 10 principles | 20:23 |
| ttx | #agreed Powered by OpenStack should pass capabilities tests AND implement designated sections | 20:23 |
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| ttx | OK, I think that clarifies well | 20:23 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | there is required (designated) code and required tests. vendors may have alternate implementation of non-designated areas | 20:23 |
| jbryce | can i take one second to clarify something | 20:24 |
| ttx | jbryce: sure | 20:24 |
| markmc_ | I think it's worth spelling out the swift example | 20:24 |
| markmc_ | but that contradicts the AND thing we've just agreed here | 20:24 |
| markmc_ | code can be required to be shipped even if the APIs it implements aren't required? | 20:25 |
| zehicle_at_dell | if there is no designated code then part of the AND is a noop | 20:25 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | marmc_, good question | 20:25 |
| markmc_ | if there is designated code and no corresponding capabilities, is the question | 20:25 |
| jbryce | the license agreement in question is called OpenStack Powered and is intended for use with products and services that are built using OpenStack software. for instance a public cloud “FooTron Compute Powered By OpenStack”, an appliance “FooTron Appliance Powered by OpenStack, a distribution “FooTron OpenStack” | 20:25 |
| markmc_ | the etherpad says something like "if the TC designates swift, we'll remove the swift capabilities" | 20:26 |
| zehicle_at_dell | if the required code is part of sections without required capabilities then we _assumed_ that that project would not be required | 20:26 |
| ttx | <if Swift has any designated sections then the DefCore committee will likely recommending omitting the "object-*" capabilities from core> | 20:26 |
| jeblair | jbryce: thank you, that is very clear :) | 20:26 |
| zehicle_at_dell | so, we should clarify that | 20:26 |
| mordred | jbryce: thank you | 20:26 |
| russellb | jbryce: thanks | 20:26 |
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| jbryce | all of those difference products would be held to the same standard. in other words, they would all be required to expose the same capabilities (testable over the APIs) and include the same actual community-developed software bits (designated sections) | 20:26 |
| mordred | jbryce: that clarifies the scope of this | 20:26 |
| devananda | jbryce: thanks. that answers my question from earlier | 20:27 |
| ttx | #info the license agreement in question is called OpenStack Powered and is intended for use with products and services that are built using OpenStack software. for instance a public cloud “FooTron Compute Powered By OpenStack”, an appliance “FooTron Appliance Powered by OpenStack, a distribution “FooTron OpenStack” | 20:27 |
| mordred | we've been thinking of FooTron Openstack and FooTron powered by OpenStack as different things | 20:27 |
| dhellman_ | jbryce: thanks, that is helpful | 20:27 |
| markmc_ | jbryce, very nice summary | 20:27 |
| ttx | #info all of those difference products would be held to the same standard. in other words, they would all be required to expose the same capabilities (testable over the APIs) and include the same actual community-developed software bits (designated sections) | 20:27 |
| ttx | (sorry, capturing for the meetgin minutes) | 20:27 |
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| mikal | jbryce: thanks for clarifying | 20:27 |
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| markmc_ | <zehicle_at_dell> if the required code is part of sections without required capabilities then we _assumed_ that that project would not be required | 20:27 |
| markmc_ | think that's where we were at | 20:27 |
| jbryce | the only other product-type license agreement that currently exists, is OpenStack Compatible which is intended for products and services which are built on top of or plug into the community-developed software. For instance, a back-end storage system, or a cloud automation management layer that consumes the OpenStack APIs | 20:28 |
| troytoman1 | markmc_: I think that makes sense but I don't know that we've been explicit | 20:28 |
| ttx | #info if the required code is part of sections without required capabilities then Defcore _assumed_ that that project would not be required | 20:28 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | for example, if Saraha has designated code but no capabilities then it would still not be required for the mark | 20:28 |
| ttx | OK, I think that answers our question | 20:28 |
| troytoman1 | yes | 20:28 |
| markmc_ | yeah, contradicting the AND thing earlier | 20:29 |
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| russellb | but if you include something that implements the Swift APIs, the swift code is not required, right? (if no swift capabilities included) | 20:29 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | markmc_, I don't see why. you need both | 20:29 |
| * ttx looks into boolean theory to find the right operator | 20:29 | |
| zehicle_at_dell | xor? | 20:29 |
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| russellb | AND AND IFF | 20:29 |
| markmc_ | zehicle_at_dell, you don't need swift designated code if there are no swift capabilities - that's the AND we meant | 20:29 |
| russellb | or something bizarre | 20:29 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | markmc_, yes. no required caps means the code is not required | 20:30 |
| markmc_ | anyway, cool - clarified now ... | 20:30 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | so, perhaps there's an ordering item that's important | 20:30 |
| ttx | #info no required caps means the code is not required | 20:30 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | first, you need to have required capabilities | 20:30 |
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| russellb | passes test == (!capabilities_included OR (capabilities_pass && designated_sections_included)) | 20:30 |
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| zaneb | zehicle_at_dell: so if the capability is not required, but you deploy it anyway, but you don't use the designated section... ? | 20:30 |
| zehicle_at_dell | then you must include the designated code under those capabilities | 20:31 |
| zehicle_at_dell | zaneb, we call that earning karma | 20:31 |
| dhellman_ | and if there is no capability then it doesn't matter if the code is there or not? | 20:31 |
| zehicle_at_dell | dhellman_, +1 | 20:31 |
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| ttx | OK, I propose we move on | 20:31 |
| zehicle_at_dell | we did a graphic of this at the ATL summit | 20:32 |
| ttx | It clarified what we needed clarified | 20:32 |
| russellb | fair enough | 20:32 |
| ttx | #topic Defcore Designated sections | 20:32 |
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| dhellman_ | yeah, I think I get it now -- this is what I thought the position as in the beginning | 20:32 |
| zehicle_at_dell | Will is pointing out to me that we're looking for a MINIMUM (least common deminotor) | 20:32 |
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| ttx | So, our view on this (as the TC) is the following: | 20:32 |
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| ttx | The TC defines the contents of the integrated release, and that's the set of things we vouch for | 20:32 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | I'll go ahead and be the first person to say "INTEROP" | 20:32 |
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| ttx | Defining a subset of the integrated release would make the TC, the representation of the contributors to the project, appear to endorse or encourage replacing part of their work with proprietary alternatives | 20:32 |
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| ttx | (although we value that the Apache license gives you that freedom) | 20:33 |
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| ttx | (and we respect that it's the board prerogatives to determine trademark license programs) | 20:33 |
| ttx | Basically, the TC doesn't want to be the deciders of where proprietary replacements are allowed in "OpenStack Powered" products | 20:33 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | ttx, my understandoing is that the project is _designed_ to have replacable parts | 20:33 |
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| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: i wouldn't say it's designed to use proprietary replacements, no | 20:33 |
| zehicle_at_dell | ttx, that does not make sense to me. it's part of the design of the project | 20:33 |
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| ttx | it's designed to be modular | 20:33 |
| ttx | Anyway | 20:34 |
| ttx | we'd like to recognize that it's the board's right to define a subset of the integrated release to use for the purpose of commercial trademark license agreements | 20:34 |
| zehicle_at_dell | modular, but only for open alternatives? | 20:34 |
| ttx | (such as the "OpenStack Powered" trademark program) | 20:34 |
| zaneb | zehicle: OpenStack is not an open core project imo | 20:34 |
| ttx | and therefore the board should have final say on "designated sections" | 20:34 |
| russellb | zehicle: modular because that's the implementation that makes sense. the projects have multiple choices within the project itself | 20:34 |
| ttx | It is very consistent with what the bylaws currently say, fwiw. TC builds the set, and Board picks a subset to apply trademark rules on. | 20:34 |
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| markmc_ | zehicle_at_dell, the technical architecture allows for replacements, we make no guarantees about the API for those replacements | 20:34 |
| zehicle_at_dell | markmc_, agreed. that's why we want tests | 20:34 |
| markmc_ | zehicle_at_dell, we value that our copyright license allows proprietary replacements | 20:34 |
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| vishy | basically the upshot is the tc shouldn’t be making this decision because it isn’t a technical decision | 20:35 |
| markmc_ | zehicle_at_dell, but think it's the board's call on what the trademark license allows | 20:35 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | if you ask the board to make a technical decision about which code to include, they will likely have to say none (since we are not in a position to make that decision) | 20:35 |
| zehicle_at_dell | we are asking for help from the TC about this | 20:35 |
| mordred | it puts us in a weird position to have already decided what's in an out, the integrated release, and then come back and be asked for a different set of software that's in | 20:35 |
| mordred | for us, we've already made a very clear call on what's in | 20:35 |
| markmc_ | whether "OpenStack Powered" products are required to ship swift or not is certainly *not* a technical question | 20:36 |
| russellb | right, we have a process for stuff making it into the integrated release over time | 20:36 |
| markmc_ | not one iota of that is technical | 20:36 |
| dhellman_ | markmc_: +1 | 20:36 |
| mordred | from our point of view, swift is part of opensatck | 20:36 |
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| ttx | we respect that it's the board right to say otherwise | 20:36 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | mordred, based on evidence from a commerical perspective, it's not | 20:36 |
| ttx | for use oin trademark programs | 20:36 |
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| markmc_ | totally, the board controls the requirements of the commercial trademark licenses | 20:37 |
| mordred | zehicle_at_dell: that's why it is the board's perrogative to contradict us | 20:37 |
| zehicle_at_dell | there are people using openstack without including swift | 20:37 |
| zehicle_at_dell | and other integrated parts too | 20:37 |
| mordred | zehicle_at_dell: that is their right to do | 20:37 |
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| mordred | but we, as the people who make openstack | 20:37 |
| mordred | have included swift in it | 20:37 |
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| dhellman_ | zehicle_at_dell: there are people using *parts of* openstack that way | 20:37 |
| mordred | which means swift is a part of openstack | 20:37 |
| vishy | zehicle_at_dell: correct but it isn’t a technical decision to say whether that is allowed | 20:37 |
| zehicle_at_dell | so, should they be allowed to use the name OpenStack if they don't include swift? | 20:37 |
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| vishy | zehicle_at_dell: if the board says so | 20:37 |
| zehicle_at_dell | even if they use every other line of the prodyct | 20:37 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: that's the board's call | 20:37 |
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| mordred | that's teh board's call. but from our side, swift is a part of openstack | 20:38 |
| markmc_ | zehicle_at_dell, it's completely the board's decision whether some products should be allowed to be called "OpenStack Powered" | 20:38 |
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| ttx | We have two ways to get there, I think | 20:38 |
| mordred | and if the board makes a different decision from us based on things, then that's within its legal rights | 20:38 |
| zehicle_at_dell | if you want to push the technical decision about designatated sections to the board, I'm happy to run that up the flag pole | 20:38 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: We have two ways to get there, I think | 20:38 |
| mordred | we do not want to push the technical decision to the board | 20:38 |
| zehicle_at_dell | but I don't advise it | 20:38 |
| mordred | we already made the technical decision | 20:38 |
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| dhellman_ | zehicle_at_dell: as markmc_ said, swift isn't a technical decision | 20:38 |
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| ttx | (1) would be to designate all the havana integrated release as a havana designated section, *and* recognize that it's the Board's right to designate a final subset of that set for trademark license program usage | 20:38 |
| troytoman1 | Does the TC have a preference? (i.e. it should be the same as the integrated release?) | 20:38 |
| vishy | zehicle_at_dell: the assertion is there is no technical part to this | 20:38 |
| markmc_ | right, it's not a technical decision and it's patently clear that it's the board decision anyway | 20:39 |
| ttx | (2) would be to adopt markmc's suggested process on the Defcore list: let the Board come up with a strawman designated sections list, RFC that with TC and PTLs and the wider community, then let the board build the final synthesis | 20:39 |
| mordred | zehicle_at_dell: we've already declared to the world the software we think is in openstack | 20:39 |
| ttx | I think both approaches would address the concern that the TC should not decide where proprietary replacements are allowed in "OpenStack Powered" products | 20:39 |
| mordred | if the board wants to grant someone the ability to use the trademark when they use a different set of software | 20:39 |
| markmc_ | troytoman1, we would prefer the board to come up with a strawman based on their full understand of the commercial considerations | 20:39 |
| mordred | tehy can | 20:39 |
| zehicle_at_dell | based on community feedback in the process, we felt that it was important to have upstream code included | 20:39 |
| zehicle_at_dell | as a requirement | 20:39 |
| markmc_ | troytoman1, we're happy to provide input on that | 20:39 |
| zaneb | zehicle_at_dell: it seems like the default here (that sections have to be designated explicitly to be required) is backwards | 20:39 |
| mordred | zehicle_at_dell: I think upstream code is exsential | 20:39 |
| zehicle_at_dell | IMHO, the design of the code allows for us to have designated sections | 20:40 |
| dhellman_ | zaneb: +1 | 20:40 |
| markmc_ | troytoman1, but the board - with its understanding of the commercial ecosystem - is best placed to come up with that strawman | 20:40 |
| jbryce | it’s not just about proprietary replacements | 20:40 |
| mordred | zaneb: +! | 20:40 |
| zaneb | zehicle_at_dell: I don't think there would be as much objection to designating optional sections | 20:40 |
| dhellman_ | zehicle_at_dell: you are not differentiating between whole projects and plugin APIs | 20:40 |
| zehicle_at_dell | jbryce, +1. there are lots of ways to replace the code | 20:40 |
| mikal | zehicle_at_dell: this is an important point | 20:40 |
| jbryce | in my experience in the real world, there are open alternatives being switched into places | 20:40 |
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| troytoman1 | markmc_: that's fine. i'm just trying to understand if the TC has any guidance or preference - I'll take it that it doesn't | 20:40 |
| jbryce | probably most frequently | 20:40 |
| mordred | troytoman1: I do not agree | 20:40 |
| mikal | zehicle_at_dell: we are saying that the plug in interfaces inside our code were intended for alternate implementations also present in our code | 20:40 |
| zaneb | e.g. I would designate the heat-cfn-api and all the AWS compatibility resources as optional quite happily | 20:40 |
| mordred | troytoman1: I think we're saying quite the opposite of that | 20:40 |
| zehicle_at_dell | dhellman_, I am asking for the TC help help make that distinction. I'm intentionally trying to stay away from that | 20:40 |
| troytoman1 | mordred: quite the opposite of what? | 20:41 |
| mordred | troytoman1: I believe _I_ a t least am saying that I have already made the call on which bits are in and out | 20:41 |
| mordred | troytoman1: that we don't want to give guidance | 20:41 |
| zehicle_at_dell | mikal, like KVM? it's that inside our code? | 20:41 |
| dhellman_ | zehicle_at_dell: you certainly can tell the difference between swift and a hypervisor driver in nova, though, so we should not conflate those 2 cases | 20:41 |
| russellb | mordred: +1 | 20:41 |
| mordred | troytoman1: I want to give guidance - I voted on the integrated release | 20:41 |
| mordred | I believe that's opensatck | 20:41 |
| mikal | zehicle_at_dell: like the kvm and xen drivers, yes | 20:41 |
| mordred | if someone else, who is not me, wants to call someone else openstack | 20:41 |
| jeblair | mordred: agreed | 20:41 |
| troytoman1 | mordred: I read that as "I think it should be the integrated release but you can decided differently" | 20:41 |
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| mordred | they're going to have to do that without my agreement | 20:41 |
| dhellman_ | zehicle_at_dell: the nova driver to talk to kvm is in our code | 20:41 |
| mordred | troytoman1: you can | 20:41 |
| zehicle_at_dell | mikal, those are not inside OpenStack or part of the integrated release | 20:41 |
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| mordred | troytoman1: you are legally allowed to disagree with the TC | 20:42 |
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| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: the trick is, that distinction is more about policy than it is about a technical question | 20:42 |
| mikal | zehicle_at_dell: the drivers are | 20:42 |
| troytoman1 | mordred: I am trying to figure out if that is a TC view or a mordred view | 20:42 |
| russellb | TC view | 20:42 |
| mordred | everyone in the TC who agrees with me ++ | 20:42 |
| dhellman_ | ++ | 20:42 |
| russellb | ++ | 20:42 |
| jeblair | mordred: ++ | 20:42 |
| ttx | ++ | 20:42 |
| markmcclain | ++ | 20:42 |
| mikal | ++ | 20:42 |
| sdague | troytoman: it's pretty heavily believed by the TC | 20:42 |
| devananda | ++ | 20:42 |
| troytoman1 | mordred: I'm fine with either but I would like to know what the thoughts are as we deliberate or come up with a strawman | 20:42 |
| devananda | zehicle_at_dell: what we're saying is, that code is modular is a result of good coding practices, not the result of an intent to enable proprietary plugins or alternate implementations. | 20:42 |
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| vishy | -- | 20:42 |
| troytoman1 | thanks for that input everyone - it is very helpful to me, at least | 20:42 |
| vishy | that is not my view | 20:43 |
| vishy | but that is the tc consensus | 20:43 |
| ttx | vishy: that's because you're unique | 20:43 |
| vishy | and the correct position for the tc imo | 20:43 |
| * mordred loves vishy | 20:43 | |
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| markmc_ | -- (I can see good reason for the board to allow OpenStack Powered products not ship all of OpenStack) | 20:43 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: which of the two approaches I ourtlined earlier would have your preference ? | 20:43 |
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| markmc_ | but I think the TC is not the ones best placed to make that call | 20:43 |
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| markmc_ | I think it's a terrible idea to ask the TC to make that call | 20:44 |
| vishy | markmc_: ++ | 20:44 |
| troytoman1 | i think we can work on a straw man - but it is helpful to know what the current opinion is | 20:44 |
| ttx | We can provide technical feedback on a strawman, for sure | 20:44 |
| ttx | as anybody in our community can | 20:44 |
| devananda | markmc_: I can see good reasons for the board to do that, too | 20:44 |
| ttx | troytoman1: so... approach (2) ? | 20:44 |
| vishy | highly suggest that the strawman differentiates between replacing components and projects | 20:44 |
| ttx | "adopt markmc's suggested process on the Defcore list: let the Board come up with a strawman designated sections list, RFC that with TC and PTLs and the wider community, then let the board build the final synthesis" ? | 20:44 |
| zehicle_at_dell | ttx, we already did that | 20:44 |
| vishy | and addresses the swift case head-on | 20:44 |
| jbryce | so…can i ask a crazy question? | 20:45 |
| jbryce | vishy: that’s where my question was going = ) | 20:45 |
| russellb | jbryce: please :) | 20:45 |
| zehicle_at_dell | our strawman has swift = 0% | 20:45 |
| dhellman_ | troytoman1: defcore needs to differentiate between vertical division between projects like swift and nova and horizontal divisions of those projects into layers with drivers that can be added outside the tree | 20:45 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: so be it | 20:45 |
| devananda | markmc_: but the point is that that is not a technical decision | 20:45 |
| dhellman_ | vishy: ++ | 20:45 |
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| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: some people will cmplain at that in RFC phase | 20:45 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/openstack-designated-sections | 20:45 |
| troytoman1 | dhellman_: Defintely | 20:45 |
| devananda | dhellman_: ++ | 20:45 |
| sdague | yeh, instead of trying to come up with a policy that dances around the hard problems, just call them out | 20:46 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: tbh, since you can nullify the designated section by removing capabilities, the end result is the same | 20:46 |
| mordred | ++ | 20:46 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | ttx, removing the capabilities LIMITS interopability | 20:46 |
| zehicle_at_dell | the end goal is interoperability | 20:46 |
| sdague | swift, keystone, anything else we know folks are replacing, and just have the board decide if that's the commercial ecosystem they want | 20:46 |
| mordred | I think the goal of trademarks is to designate the "is"-ness of something | 20:46 |
| zehicle_at_dell | so, when we remove a capability it means that vendors will not have to include those APIs | 20:46 |
| zehicle_at_dell | which reduces the scope of OpenStack clouds | 20:47 |
| mordred | if you put a name on something, you want to know that you are getting that thing | 20:47 |
| notmyname | for the record, swift does support "drivers" that ecosystems members have replaced with both proprietary and open alternate implementations | 20:47 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: feair enough, that's why designated sections should be designed in parallel with capabilities, not provided by a third-party | 20:47 |
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| zaneb | mordred: ++ | 20:47 |
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| mordred | notmyname: ++ | 20:47 |
| jbryce | the most common scenario i’ve seen so far that doesn’t comply with the existing OpenStack Powered license agreement (“must include the entirety of the nova and swift code from a recent release”) has to do with people using an alternate object storage system that exposes the swift APIs. it seems like everyone keeps dancing away from making a call one way or the other on what object storage in an openstack cloud shoul | 20:47 |
| mordred | jbryce: +1000 | 20:47 |
| ttx | and i don't think that's a technical question | 20:47 |
| mordred | nope | 20:47 |
| ttx | I have an opinion on it | 20:47 |
| dhellman_ | notmyname: ++ | 20:47 |
| jbryce | are there other examples besides the swift one that are so hot-button? | 20:47 |
| mordred | I do too | 20:47 |
| ttx | but it's NOT technical | 20:47 |
| jbryce | or is this really all about what does object storage in openstack mean? | 20:48 |
| troytoman1 | ttx: i agree | 20:48 |
| mordred | ttx: ++ | 20:48 |
| ttx | troytoman1: and the TC is not elected to decide that. You guys are | 20:48 |
| sdague | ttx: +++ :) | 20:48 |
| zehicle_at_dell | jbryce, keystone (but no one gets up set that it's also 0% designated) | 20:48 |
| vishy | jbryce: i think the closest second place is out-of-tree cinder drivers | 20:48 |
| dhellman_ | jbryce: there are some things going on in block storage that may raise questions | 20:48 |
| devananda | jbryce: almost. I think it's "what does openstack mean" | 20:48 |
| russellb | i think replacing a virt driver in nova is controversial, as well, IMO | 20:48 |
| troytoman1 | ttx: nod | 20:48 |
| mikal | jbryce: I think nova hypervisor drivers are close, but not as hot button | 20:48 |
| jbryce | mordred: “if you put a name on something, you want to know that you are getting that thing” +1 | 20:48 |
| vishy | jbryce: and 3rd place would be storage systems implementing the cinder or glance api | 20:48 |
| mikal | jbryce: for example, Oracle shipping an "OpenStack" with a hypervisor driver we've never seen | 20:48 |
| jeblair | ttx, mordred: i disagree with the idea that we're only permitted to hold opinions on technical subjects -- we're quite clearly often concerned with the nature of this software and how it grows | 20:48 |
| russellb | nova virt drivers are very much NON-trivial bits of code, that's a huge part of nova | 20:49 |
| mordred | jeblair: I agree with that | 20:49 |
| dhellman_ | mikal: how much of any of the rest of their fork have you seen? | 20:49 |
| mordred | I have a very strong opinion on the fact that people not running swift are not running opensatck | 20:49 |
| mikal | dhellman_: none | 20:49 |
| mordred | btw | 20:49 |
| notmyname | monitoring not with ceilometer? management not with horizon? | 20:49 |
| markmc_ | jeblair, of course we have opinions, the TC as a body doesn't have mandate tho | 20:49 |
| vishy | mikal: good point out of tree hypervisors is up there with other cinder drivers | 20:49 |
| ttx | jeblair: objection noted :) | 20:49 |
| mordred | and neither are people running keystone replacements or cinder replacements | 20:49 |
| theannegentle | I am often concerned with the growth for programs that provide resources for all projets | 20:49 |
| mordred | I think none of them should be allowed to use the trademark | 20:49 |
| vishy | horizon is another good example | 20:49 |
| mikal | I see a lot of announcements from people like Cray and Oracle | 20:49 |
| mikal | But never any code | 20:49 |
| mikal | And that worries me a lot | 20:49 |
| troytoman1 | jeblair: I think you should absolutely have opinions - the questions is who makes the decision | 20:49 |
| mordred | I believe that people shipping non-horizon dashboards should not be allowed to call themselves opensatck | 20:49 |
| ttx | at least no mandate for the "Powered by openStack" trademark license program | 20:49 |
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| dhellman_ | mikal: +1 | 20:50 |
| dhellman_ | annegentle: +1 | 20:50 |
| mordred | I believe that people running public clouds that do not run horizon should not be allowed to cal themselves openstack | 20:50 |
| vishy | mordred: can you replace the css themes? | 20:50 |
| mordred | and I believe they should all be ashamed of being bad community members | 20:50 |
| lifeless | mordred: what if they don't offer a web UI at all? | 20:50 |
| vishy | or move around panels | 20:50 |
| vishy | ? | 20:50 |
| ttx | mordred: that's only you though. | 20:50 |
| mordred | vishy: of course - I also don't think we should get all legalistic about it all | 20:50 |
| * troytoman1 hangs his head in shame | 20:50 | |
| mordred | ttx: yes. I'm extremem | 20:50 |
| theannegentle | on the TC we represent the people making the code patches, and that's the members of swift and horizon and all of integrated now | 20:50 |
| markmcclain | mikal: true I know there are forks of Neutron without code that's been seen | 20:50 |
| vishy | mordred: that is far to extreme imo :) | 20:50 |
| mordred | I'm just being very direct about teh opinions I have that are not technical | 20:50 |
| vishy | * too | 20:51 |
| ttx | anyway, let's go back on topic | 20:51 |
| zaneb | lifeless: that's ok if it's not a required capability, AIUI | 20:51 |
| jbryce | markmc_: i disagree about the mandate. the bylaws set it up so that the decisions about core were board decisions, but based off tc recommendation | 20:51 |
| ttx | i'd like a resolution on that one | 20:51 |
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| mordred | theannegentle: ++ | 20:51 |
| mordred | jbryce: ++ | 20:51 |
| ttx | jbryce: based on a set the TC provides, which is the (upstream) integrated release | 20:51 |
| sdague | jbryce: right, so I think that's the crux of it. The TC made that recommendation with the integration votes for these projects | 20:51 |
| mordred | sdague: ++ | 20:51 |
| russellb | ++ | 20:51 |
| dhellman_ | ++ | 20:51 |
| markmcclain | sdague: ++ | 20:51 |
| theannegentle | sdague: correct | 20:51 |
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| mordred | we'd be happy to makea formal recommendation if that's helpful | 20:52 |
| vishy | sdague: ++ | 20:52 |
| devananda | sdague: ++ | 20:52 |
| ttx | TC defines set, Board picks subset for trademark usage. that's always how it was meant to be | 20:52 |
| russellb | but it would be "the entire integrated release" | 20:52 |
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| mordred | russellb: ++ | 20:52 |
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| ttx | It's all over the bylaws | 20:52 |
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| troytoman1 | feels like we are saying the TC recommends the integrated release and the board now needs to decide what modifications (if any) should be made. | 20:52 |
| ttx | looks like we either lost or flooded zehicle | 20:52 |
| mordred | troytoman1: yup | 20:52 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | ttx, I'm here | 20:53 |
| russellb | troytoman1: ++ | 20:53 |
| vishy | its unfortunate that the number of projects is confusing | 20:53 |
| jbryce | time check: 7 minutes | 20:53 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: ah good | 20:53 |
| zehicle_at_dell | thing that the TC forcing a decision that will have negative implications | 20:53 |
| vishy | because it would be way simpler if you could just use which projects you wanted and call each one openstack | 20:53 |
| ttx | OK, so I would like a way forward on that | 20:53 |
| vishy | so if you don’t use swift you can’t say openstack-storage | 20:53 |
| mordred | vishy: you know - I'd be more ok with that than the other thing | 20:53 |
| vishy | but then we’d have way too many trademarks and it would be confusing | 20:53 |
| zehicle_at_dell | I've voiced my position and tried to represent the broader ones that I've heard over the last 18 months | 20:53 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: which negative implication? | 20:54 |
| theannegentle | zehicle_at_dell: negative for whom? | 20:54 |
| theannegentle | look at me all grammarly | 20:54 |
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| jbryce | vishy: you can have different naming standards under a single license. we already do for OpenStack Powered | 20:54 |
| zehicle_at_dell | I think that this position will lead to vendors forking OpenStack and not contributing | 20:54 |
| dhellman_ | theannegentle: show off | 20:54 |
| mordred | zehicle_at_dell: they already do that | 20:54 |
| vishy | jbryce: yeah but do we really want to have 12 of them? | 20:54 |
| theannegentle | zehicle_at_dell: already evidenced | 20:54 |
| zehicle_at_dell | yes, they do | 20:54 |
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| vishy | jbryce: they kinda lose meaning. But that is a board discussion anyway | 20:54 |
| mordred | zehicle_at_dell: most of the cases of vendors we're referencing who are doing these thigns are not contributing and have forked | 20:54 |
| troytoman1 | zehicle_at_dell: that's only true if the board decides on the full integrated release - which is far from a given | 20:54 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | the DefCore position is set to bring them back into contributing upstream as much as possible AND adding tests | 20:55 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: how would designated sections from the TC help ? | 20:55 |
| mordred | zehicle_at_dell: they're not going to, no matter what we do | 20:55 |
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| ttx | compared to designated section strawman from the board ? | 20:55 |
| zehicle_at_dell | troytoman1, yes. but I'd rather not have the Board do it w/o the TC | 20:55 |
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| mordred | zehicle_at_dell: stop saying w/o | 20:55 |
| ttx | zehicle: we can still comment on a strawnman | 20:55 |
| mordred | it's "in conflict with" | 20:55 |
| zehicle_at_dell | I think we worked out a compromise position and the TC is not working toward the compromise | 20:55 |
| ttx | but since you have final call... | 20:55 |
| russellb | not clear to me how this has anything to do with encouraging contribution | 20:55 |
| ttx | you should propose the original set | 20:55 |
| troytoman1 | zehicle_at_dell: i think that's why we have an RFC on any changes we recommend | 20:55 |
| ttx | troytoman: +1 | 20:55 |
| zehicle_at_dell | ttx, yes. Josh and I will work to create a strawman because we think it's the right thing to do | 20:56 |
| zehicle_at_dell | IMHO, the TC could have been leading that | 20:56 |
| mordred | zehicle_at_dell: we did. we made a choice. you just disagree with it | 20:56 |
| dhellman_ | zehicle_at_dell: we've *given* you an answer | 20:56 |
| zehicle_at_dell | yes. that's right | 20:56 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | you asked why I was being quite | 20:56 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: our answer would be "the integrated release" | 20:56 |
| ttx | which is the only answer the TC can give | 20:56 |
| zehicle_at_dell | ttx, I understand | 20:56 |
| ttx | since that's what we work on | 20:56 |
| zehicle_at_dell | and will convey that back to the board | 20:56 |
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| ttx | we can't decide that a subset of what we do is less important | 20:57 |
| mordred | ttx: ++ | 20:57 |
| ttx | or replaceable | 20:57 |
| jbryce | vishy: we’ve always had the reciprocal where if you don’t have compute, you can be Storage Powered OpenStack…hasn’t seemed to create too much of a problem | 20:57 |
| russellb | ttx: ++ | 20:57 |
| ttx | we represent the contributors | 20:57 |
| zehicle_at_dell | ttx, I think that's not a real limit. it's self imposed | 20:57 |
| ttx | they are all equal | 20:57 |
| mordred | the ATC's are who voted me in | 20:57 |
| ttx | as soon as we accept them in the integrated release | 20:57 |
| troytoman1 | zehicle_at_dell: i think we have an opportunity to make modifications with a business or community rationale and have a discussion around that. | 20:57 |
| mordred | they are my constituency | 20:57 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | mordred, you have multiple constituencies | 20:57 |
| ttx | we are just their representants | 20:57 |
| mordred | zehicle_at_dell: in my role as a TC member, I have one | 20:57 |
| mordred | and I am representing them | 20:57 |
| mordred | in my role as a board member, I have a different one | 20:58 |
| mordred | I also believe I'm representing them | 20:58 |
| sdague | zehicle_at_dell: this is also fundamentally a business decision on the commercial ecosystem. Companies are going to take hits or wins based on the definition. Defining the parameters of the commercial ecosystem seems to be the reason for the board. | 20:58 |
| mordred | because I believe a broad definition of opensatck is better for everyone | 20:58 |
| mordred | but people may disagree with me on that | 20:58 |
| mordred | and I respect their ability to do so | 20:58 |
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| mordred | I do not think it's good for the opensatck business ecosystem to have a minimum definition of openstack | 20:58 |
| mordred | because I thnk it makes the word meaningless | 20:59 |
| zehicle_at_dell | I have heard from many people that a minimum one is better than ALL or NONE | 20:59 |
| mordred | and this is as a person who is a massive end-user of openstack clouds | 20:59 |
| mordred | zehicle_at_dell: I doubt most of those people are as heavy users ofopenstack as I am | 20:59 |
| ttx | zehicle_at_dell: it's a trademark policy call, always was. | 20:59 |
| mordred | so as a board member, I will represent that position | 21:00 |
| zehicle_at_dell | I'm happy to take the TC position back the board | 21:00 |
| russellb | sounds good, we're about at time | 21:00 |
| troytoman1 | mordred: i'm not sure it is useful to have one so narrow that few can use the trademark | 21:00 |
| zehicle_at_dell | my role, as always, was to find a compromise | 21:00 |
| mordred | troytoman1: they TOTALLY can use the trademark | 21:00 |
| mordred | troytoman1: all they have to do is run the code | 21:00 |
| mordred | we gave it to them for free even | 21:00 |
| ttx | ok, time is up | 21:00 |
| ttx | Thanks everyone | 21:01 |
| jeblair | ttx: thank you | 21:01 |
| zehicle_at_dell | thanks everyone | 21:01 |
| mordred | troytoman1: but different opinions are what make the world go aroudn! | 21:01 |
| mordred | thanks zehicle_at_dell ! | 21:01 |
| ttx | I think we reached some conclusions, even if they are not universally appreciated | 21:01 |
| mordred | thanks ttx ! | 21:01 |
| sparkyc | the current definiton is nova and swift only fyi | 21:01 |
| markmcclain | ttx: thanks! | 21:01 |
| dhellman_ | zehicle_at_dell, troytoman1, jbryce : thanks for clarifying things today | 21:01 |
| mordred | jbryce: ++ | 21:01 |
| sparkyc | so expand it :) | 21:01 |
| sparkyc | thanks all | 21:01 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:01 |
| sdague | thanks all | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 1 21:01:53 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-07-01-20.02.html | 21:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-07-01-20.02.txt | 21:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-07-01-20.02.log.html | 21:01 |
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| ttx | dhellmann, dolphm, notmyname, eglynn, markwash, jgriffith, mikal, zaneb, david-lyle, kmestery, SlickNik, SergeyLukjanov: around ? | 21:03 |
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| mestery | o/ | 21:03 |
| notmyname | here | 21:03 |
| dhellman_ | o/ | 21:03 |
| eglynn | o/ | 21:03 |
| david-lyle | o/ | 21:03 |
| jgriffith | o/ | 21:04 |
| zaneb | o/ | 21:04 |
| ttx | mestery, not kmestery | 21:04 |
| ttx | #startmeeting project | 21:04 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jul 1 21:04:14 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:04 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:04 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'project' | 21:04 |
| mikal | Hi | 21:04 |
| * devananda is lurking | 21:04 | |
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| ttx | Agenda for today is available at: | 21:04 |
| ttx | #link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/ProjectMeeting | 21:04 |
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| dolphm | ttx: (o/) | 21:04 |
| ttx | #topic Actions from previous meeting | 21:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from previous meeting (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:05 | |
| ttx | I'm late with my actions to document SPD/SAD, will get that done this week | 21:05 |
| ttx | #topic News from the 1:1 sync points | 21:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "News from the 1:1 sync points (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:05 | |
| ttx | Something wrong happened with the meeting bot, so we don't have a meeting summary... | 21:06 |
| ttx | See channel logs at: | 21:06 |
| mikal | :( | 21:06 |
| ttx | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-relmgr-office/%23openstack-relmgr-office.2014-07-01.log | 21:06 |
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| ttx | A few highlights: | 21:06 |
| ttx | dhellmann (Oslo) wanted to mention there were some issues installing alpha versions of libraries, issues are under investigation | 21:06 |
| mikal | Is that a packaging problem? | 21:07 |
| ttx | Oslo also anticipates another update to oslo.db soon (0.3.0) with opportunistic migration test fixes for both sqlalchemy-migrate and alembic | 21:07 |
| mikal | i.e. pypi? | 21:07 |
| ttx | a wheel magic fail iirc | 21:07 |
| dhellman_ | mikal: something to do with pip not liking alphas in some projects | 21:07 |
| mikal | dhellman_: do you need help on that? | 21:07 |
| mikal | dhellman_: I now employ the author of pypi and would happily ask him to help you | 21:08 |
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| dhellman_ | mikal: send him over to the infra guys; I think this was either a mirroring issue (they've been working on moving off of our custom mirror tool at richard's suggestion) or something to do with the tox.ini settings in those projects | 21:08 |
| devananda | dhellman_: thanks for the oslo.db updates! I'll test against Ironic once the patch is updated | 21:08 |
| dhellman_ | I'm catching up after a day offline, so I'll have more details tomorrow | 21:09 |
| ttx | #topic Other program news | 21:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Other program news (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:09 | |
| mikal | dhellman_: ahhh, ok. The infra guys already know about Richard, so it sounds like this is already happening without me | 21:09 |
| ttx | Infra, QA, Docs... anything you'd like to mention ? | 21:09 |
| dhellman_ | mikal: yeah, I think so | 21:09 |
| mikal | dhellman_: I shall just take credit like a good manager | 21:09 |
| dhellman_ | mikal: ++ | 21:09 |
| ttx | jeblair, annegentle, mtreinish ^ | 21:09 |
| jeblair | oh yeah, on the mirror front | 21:09 |
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| jeblair | it appears our new mirror actually just caught a wheel-related error, which is neat | 21:10 |
| mtreinish | ttx: nothing from me today | 21:10 |
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| jeblair | but yeah, we have a bit more work to finish the mirror infra, hopefully will be in place today or tomorrow | 21:10 |
| dhellman_ | jeblair: cool | 21:11 |
| jeblair | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/103991/ is the problem it caught | 21:11 |
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| ttx | #topic Horizon Juno features from other projects should be blueprinted now | 21:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Horizon Juno features from other projects should be blueprinted now (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:11 | |
| ttx | david-lyle: o/ | 21:11 |
| ttx | david-lyle: care to talk about that ? | 21:12 |
| david-lyle | sure | 21:12 |
| ttx | I'll parrot SlickNik's response | 21:12 |
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| david-lyle | In the past, we've had a few key features brought as must haves in Horizon late in the process | 21:12 |
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| david-lyle | I just wanted to make sure the project teams have made visible via blueprint in Horizon any such key features so we have a better chance of landing them cleanly | 21:13 |
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| ttx | <SlickNik> There's a couple of trove changes to horizon that we do need. | 21:13 |
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| ttx | <SlickNik> This one is needed for the neutron support: | 21:13 |
| ttx | <SlickNik> https://review.openstack.org/#/c/101055/ | 21:13 |
| ttx | <SlickNik> And this one for datastore support in Trove: | 21:14 |
| ttx | <SlickNik> https://review.openstack.org/#/c/75269/ | 21:14 |
| ttx | david-lyle: not sure he has blueprints up for BOTH | 21:14 |
| ttx | there is one for the latter | 21:14 |
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| david-lyle | the first has a bug attached | 21:14 |
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| david-lyle | so those are on our radar | 21:14 |
| ttx | ok, good | 21:14 |
| ttx | anyone else with last-minute surprise things for Juno Horizon ? | 21:15 |
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| dolphm | i know this bp is generating some interest https://blueprints.launchpad.net/horizon/+spec/federated-horizon | 21:16 |
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| david-lyle | dolphm: ok, that one has stalled a bit, but we can pick it up again if keystone is ready for us to | 21:18 |
| ttx | ok, I think we can switch to... | 21:18 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 21:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:18 | |
| ttx | Anything else, anyone ? | 21:18 |
| notmyname | o/ | 21:18 |
| eglynn | it would be great to have a TL;DR on what impact the tortuous DefCore discussionwill actually have on PTLs and projects | 21:19 |
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| eglynn | (...from a practical PoV) | 21:19 |
| * notmyname puts his hand down | 21:19 | |
| * mikal steps back | 21:19 | |
| eglynn | notmyname: sorry, missed your hand there ... go ahead | 21:19 |
| notmyname | your's sounds much more interesting :-) | 21:19 |
| eglynn | cool enough | 21:20 |
| dhellman_ | That discussion isn't complete yet. | 21:20 |
| ttx | eglynn: I expect the board to come up with a strawman proposal for designated sections | 21:20 |
| mestery | ttx: Looking at the dates selected for SPD/SAD, I may push Neutron's out a week, since I haven't announced this yet and SPD is this week already. | 21:20 |
| ttx | and call for general RFC on it | 21:20 |
| dhellman_ | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-07-01-20.02.log.html | 21:20 |
| * mestery should have sent email after last week's meeting. | 21:20 | |
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| eglynn | it seems to be an incredibly important discussion that at least started somewhat "under the radar" | 21:21 |
| mestery | mikal: Did you note the nova SPD/SAD already publicly? | 21:21 |
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| eglynn | ... or maybe just wasn't paying attention at the crucial points in time | 21:21 |
| mikal | mestery: yeah, there was an email | 21:21 |
| * mikal finds it | 21:21 | |
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| mestery | mikal: Cool, thanks. I'll send something for Neutron ASAP. | 21:21 |
| notmyname | ttx: is it still "designated sections" or at the whole project level now? | 21:22 |
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| mikal | The subject was "[Nova] Timeline for the rest of the Juno release" | 21:22 |
| ttx | eglynn: I think a process with a clear open RFC will be more inclusive | 21:22 |
| mestery | mikal: Got it, thanks! | 21:22 |
| eglynn | ttx: fair enough, I'll respond to the RFC when it appears | 21:22 |
| ttx | notmyname: depends a bit on what process the board elects to choose to go forward | 21:23 |
| ttx | notmyname: if they insist that we answer on designated sections, the TC's answer is "all the integrated release" being designated, since that's what we select and produce | 21:23 |
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| ttx | but we suggested that they come up with a strawman proposal and ask for community RFC on it | 21:24 |
| * eglynn is liking that TC response | 21:24 | |
| ttx | eglynn: as the representation of contributors, the TC can't really pick favorites within the integrated release | 21:24 |
| ttx | we represent all the contributors to all the integrated release | 21:25 |
| eglynn | ttx: that's a very fair point | 21:25 |
| reed | ttx, agreed | 21:25 |
| ttx | that's the set we define | 21:25 |
| ttx | we can't make a subset out of it | 21:25 |
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| ttx | especially for trademak policy purposes | 21:25 |
| ttx | that's really the board's right, mandate and prerogative | 21:25 |
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| eglynn | ttx: absolutely ... cool, sounds very reasonable | 21:26 |
| notmyname | agreed 100% | 21:26 |
| ttx | eglynn: I heard a blogpost might be coming up | 21:26 |
| eglynn | ... I'll watch out for that, it would be useful | 21:26 |
| ttx | hope it clarifies | 21:27 |
| ttx | notmyname: you ahd another question/comment/topic | 21:28 |
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| notmyname | ah. yes, just a small FYI | 21:28 |
| ttx | we still have time :) | 21:28 |
| notmyname | we're doing final QA work on the next swift release (2.0), and that will probably be landing late this week or early next week | 21:29 |
| notmyname | /end | 21:29 |
| notmyname | it includes storage policies, which are a kinda big deal (tm) | 21:29 |
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| * ttx hopes the next swift contrib tshirt will be "storage policies are kind of a big deal" | 21:32 | |
| notmyname | :-) | 21:32 |
| ttx | ok, anything else, anyone ? | 21:32 |
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| mikal | "Just so you know, Storage Policies are kind of a big deal in Swift" | 21:33 |
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| dolphm | ttx: world cup time? | 21:34 |
| ttx | indeed | 21:34 |
| eglynn | still 0-0 | 21:34 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:34 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:34 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jul 1 21:34:34 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:34 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-07-01-21.04.html | 21:34 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-07-01-21.04.txt | 21:34 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-07-01-21.04.log.html | 21:34 |
| dolphm | eglynn: usa is winning* 0-0 | 21:34 |
| mikal | Heh | 21:35 |
| eglynn | dolphm: ... very similar to the Irish attitude :) | 21:35 |
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