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| yamahata | hello | 05:00 |
|---|---|---|
| gongysh | hi | 05:00 |
| natarajk | hi | 05:00 |
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| s3wong | hello | 05:00 |
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| yamahata | Is there Bob, Balaji? | 05:01 |
| yamahata | give them minutes | 05:01 |
| yamahata | #startmeeting servicevm-device-manager | 05:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 24 05:02:06 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is yamahata. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 05:02 |
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| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 05:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)" | 05:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'servicevm_device_manager' | 05:02 |
| yamahata | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/ServiceVM agenda | 05:02 |
| yamahata | #topic announce | 05:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "announce (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)" | 05:02 | |
| yamahata | the repo on stackforge isn't created yet. It's too slow | 05:03 |
| yamahata | So I create temporal repo until the creation on stackforge | 05:03 |
| yamahata | #link https://github.com/yamahata/tacker-specs for specs | 05:03 |
| yamahata | #link https://github.com/yamahata/tacker | 05:03 |
| yamahata | #link https://github.com/yamahata/python-tackerclient client | 05:04 |
| yamahata | the main server is still WIP, but I think it's fine for api review | 05:04 |
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| s3wong | yamahata: nice! | 05:04 |
| yamahata | Once the repo is created, we can move to stackforge | 05:05 |
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| yamahata | does anyone have anything to announce? | 05:05 |
| natarajk | Brocade's DNRM code is available in github now | 05:05 |
| natarajk | https://github.com/Karthik-Natarajan | 05:06 |
| natarajk | It can be used in tacker project | 05:06 |
| gongysh | DNRM? | 05:06 |
| yamahata | natarajk: cool. Now we have 4 independent implementations. We should consolidate somehow | 05:06 |
| yamahata | #link https://github.com/Karthik-Natarajan brocade DNRM | 05:07 |
| natarajk | Dynamic Network Resource Management (DNRM) | 05:07 |
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| yamahata | natarajk: do you have any documentation? API documentation? | 05:07 |
| natarajk | I'll add the design docs as well | 05:07 |
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| bmelande | Cisco implementation with CSr1kv as first VM appliance is here: https://github.com/CiscoSystems/neutron/tree/csr1kv_for_routing_juno | 05:08 |
| gongysh | yamhata: what is the url for reviewing of the code and BP spec? | 05:08 |
| yamahata | I saw the quite old one, https://wiki.openstack.org/w/images/7/71/Dnrm-blueprint-001.pdf it doesn't seem to match the implementation | 05:08 |
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| yamahata | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/w/images/7/71/Dnrm-blueprint-001.pdf dnrm spec seems too old | 05:08 |
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| s3wong | yamahata: with these implementation, what is the plan to consolidate or integrate (in case they are all addressing different aspects of serviceVM)? | 05:09 |
| natarajk | The supervisor service will maintain a pool of VMs | 05:09 |
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| natarajk | If some parts can be reused, we are happy to help | 05:09 |
| yamahata | I think the plan is implement l3_plugin that talks with servicevm project as PoC. | 05:09 |
| s3wong | yamahata: but what is the scope of serviceVM in tacker? | 05:10 |
| yamahata | Then we can validate that routerVM(cisco, brocade) can be consolidated to tacker. | 05:10 |
| yamahata | s3wong: yes. | 05:10 |
| yamahata | And we can also confirm tacker API is enought (at least) rounterVMs. | 05:11 |
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| yamahata | At first cisco/brocade router implementation may/can differ, eventually we should consolidate the implementations somehow. | 05:12 |
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| yamahata | I'm willing to implemente l3 service pluging for PoC. | 05:12 |
| yamahata | Cisco and Brocade can work on their implementation in parallel. | 05:12 |
| s3wong | yamahata: so we can try to put L3 plugin to integrate with serviceVM project, then see if Cisco and Brocade router VM implementation can be integrated? | 05:12 |
| yamahata | s3wong: that's what I have in mind. any opinions? | 05:13 |
| natarajk | That's fine. | 05:13 |
| bmelande | yamahata: Are you talking about the l3 plugin in Neutron tree? | 05:13 |
| yamahata | bmelande: yes. | 05:13 |
| yamahata | L3 plugin in Neutron that talks to tacker to spin up/down VM | 05:14 |
| natarajk | yamahata: Are the tacker API's ready for review ? | 05:14 |
| gongysh | yamahata: why not l3 agent? | 05:14 |
| yamahata | natarajk: not ready for code review. ready for API review. | 05:14 |
| bmelande | yamahata: Ok. One thing though. I think that plugin needs to be properly modularized. | 05:14 |
| yamahata | gongysh: including l3-agent | 05:15 |
| bmelande | yamahata: It is not at the moment. | 05:15 |
| yamahata | bmelande: Do you mean l3pluging needs to be refactored for modularity? | 05:15 |
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| yamahata | l3pluging l3-plugin | 05:16 |
| bmelande | yamahata: Yes, it really needs that IMHO. | 05:16 |
| yamahata | bmelande: I have same feeling. | 05:16 |
| s3wong | bmelande: is that part of serviceVM project though? | 05:16 |
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| bmelande | yamahata, s3wong: No it is not part of service VM. Just that if we target to add to the existing l3 plugin, it will get even worse. | 05:17 |
| yamahata | s3wong: bmelande Without actual service, servicevm project won't have any value. I think servicevm project needs real example | 05:18 |
| s3wong | yamahata: agreed | 05:18 |
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| bmelande | yamahata: That I agree with too. Just wanted to mention that aspect. We don't need to go deeper into that issue here/now. | 05:19 |
| yamahata | So we have 5 tasks now | 05:20 |
| yamahata | #action natarajk write DNRM API documentation | 05:20 |
| bmelande | yamahata: I wonder about the service instance etc. Is that stuff really needed in service VM? | 05:20 |
| yamahata | #action tacker api review | 05:20 |
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| yamahata | bmelande: I'll drop it because we haven't reached consensus. | 05:21 |
| yamahata | bmelande: Just template and hosting device | 05:21 |
| bmelande | yamahata: ok | 05:21 |
| yamahata | the code is there, but I'll remove it. | 05:22 |
| yamahata | #action yamahata start 3-plugin poc code/blueprint | 05:22 |
| yamahata | #action someone l3-plugin refactoring blueprint/spec/code | 05:22 |
| yamahata | Is there any announcement? | 05:23 |
| s3wong | yamahata: you were saying 5 tasks? you listed 4, what is the last one? | 05:24 |
| yamahata | s3wong: ouch, 4. I can't count numbers. | 05:24 |
| gongysh | yamahata: how to review tacker api? is there gerrit review URL set up? | 05:24 |
| s3wong | yamahata: OK :-) | 05:24 |
| yamahata | #link https://github.com/yamahata/tacker-specs/blob/master/specs/juno/api.rst api spec | 05:25 |
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| yamahata | I'll remove service resource. | 05:25 |
| yamahata | Does github support commenting or something? | 05:25 |
| bmelande | yamahata: will the REST API implementation be based on some particular framework? | 05:25 |
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| yamahata | If no, I'll move it to google-doc. | 05:26 |
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| gongysh | I don't think github support comment | 05:26 |
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| yamahata | bmelande: What do you mean by 'some particular framework'? | 05:26 |
| natarajk | yamahata: google-doc is better | 05:26 |
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| yamahata | #action yamahata move api document google-doc and announce it | 05:26 |
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| s3wong | yamahata: yes, putting it in .rst format but not on gerrit basically negates the reason why it was in .rst in the first place :-) | 05:27 |
| yamahata | Now it's 5 tasks. :-) | 05:27 |
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| yamahata | bmelande: I plan to implement tacker based on neutron one. Do you have any preference? | 05:29 |
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| bmelande | yamahata: That's fine with me. Just asked given that there's been discussions to migrate Neutron to pecan. | 05:29 |
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| yamahata | bmelande: Yes, that's my concern. Any idea? | 05:30 |
| yamahata | I just use neutron because it is there. No other special reason | 05:30 |
| bmelande | yamahata: Yes that makes sense to get going fastest. | 05:31 |
| natarajk | yamahata: i think markmcclain was planning to migrate to pecan | 05:31 |
| natarajk | we can check with him | 05:31 |
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| yamahata | yes fastest way for working code. later we can fix it. | 05:31 |
| yamahata | #topic api discussion | 05:32 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "api discussion (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)" | 05:32 | |
| yamahata | we already discussing on api | 05:32 |
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| yamahata | Do we have anything else on servicevm api/implementation? | 05:33 |
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| yamahata | Okay let't move on | 05:33 |
| natarajk | yamahata: i wanted to bring up with cross-tenant port attachement issue in nova | 05:33 |
| natarajk | does anyone have a solution for it ? | 05:34 |
| yamahata | natarajk: do you have any links? | 05:34 |
| natarajk | i don't have any links. I sent you a e-mail last week on that issue | 05:35 |
| bmelande | natarajk: There was a recent reveiw out for change to policy | 05:35 |
| natarajk | bmelande: link please | 05:35 |
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| bmelande | natarajk: searchign for it... | 05:36 |
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| bmelande | one sec... | 05:36 |
| s3wong | Speaking of that, I almost forgot. Last week at the LBaaS mid-cycle, there was some work done on creating a new "advanced service" role (in addition to admin and tenant) | 05:37 |
| s3wong | the review is here: #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/101281 | 05:37 |
| bmelande | Here is the review I was mentioneing:https://review.openstack.org/#/c/101281 | 05:37 |
| bmelande | s3wong: you were faster. :-) | 05:37 |
| s3wong | bmelande: that's the one :-) | 05:37 |
| natarajk | s3wong: thanks | 05:38 |
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| s3wong | bmelande: turns out we were talking about the same thing :-) | 05:38 |
| yamahata | cool. | 05:39 |
| bmelande | s3wong: indeed. :-) | 05:40 |
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| yamahata | #topic neutron review | 05:40 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "neutron review (Meeting topic: servicevm-device-manager)" | 05:40 | |
| yamahata | we already covered one | 05:40 |
| yamahata | We have three specs floating. | 05:41 |
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| yamahata | l2-gateway/vlan-aware-vm, portsecurity extension and unaddressed port | 05:41 |
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| yamahata | l2-gateway and unaddressed port needs more review to make progress | 05:42 |
| s3wong | yamahata: aren't those reviews marked as NFV ones? | 05:42 |
| yamahata | s3wong: yes, they are marked as NFV ones. | 05:42 |
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| bmelande | yamahata: you can add the 101281 to that list. | 05:43 |
| yamahata | bmelande: Sure. Can you please add it to the wiki page? | 05:43 |
| bmelande | yamahata: ok | 05:43 |
| s3wong | bmelande: that one is sent out by mestery, don't you dare to give him a -1 :-) | 05:43 |
| yamahata | #action bmelande add 101281 to code review tracking list | 05:43 |
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| bmelande | s3wong: Yes, let's not go near that one. :-) | 05:44 |
| natarajk | we can some +1s :) | 05:44 |
| natarajk | we can give | 05:45 |
| natarajk | some +1s | 05:45 |
| s3wong | natarajk: :-) | 05:45 |
| yamahata | anything else for review? | 05:46 |
| yamahata | #topic open discussion | 05:46 |
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| s3wong | yamahata: the 2 interfaces to same network one is picking up traction as well | 05:47 |
| yamahata | s3wong: agree. link? | 05:47 |
| s3wong | #link https://review.openstack.org/97716 | 05:47 |
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| yamahata | #action s3wong add 97716 to review tracking page | 05:48 |
| yamahata | #action everyone review specs/codes | 05:48 |
| yamahata | s3wong: thanks for the link | 05:48 |
| yamahata | natarajk: I had a quick look at the code, the concept looks quite different from servicevm. Could you please explain a bit here? | 05:49 |
| yamahata | especially what does resource mean and it's action. | 05:49 |
| natarajk | yamahata: every VM is a resource | 05:49 |
| natarajk | Resource manager will maintain the pool of VMs | 05:49 |
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| natarajk | l3 plugin will talk to the resource manager service to get the list of VMs | 05:50 |
| natarajk | scheduler will allocate the VM satisfying the policy | 05:50 |
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| yamahata | natarajk: I see. | 05:51 |
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| natarajk | i'll also send out the design doc for DNRM | 05:51 |
| yamahata | natarajk: Yes, please. Then we can make discuss on it. | 05:52 |
| natarajk | https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_A2UJDGngzkicY3Zx95TgXg5Fu6wn5ZL_Gx2zJt4m18/edit?pli=1 | 05:52 |
| natarajk | Can you access it ? | 05:52 |
| yamahata | natarajk: I also looked at neutron and code. But they have only master branch. It is difficult to get diff from plain neutron/nova | 05:52 |
| s3wong | natarajk: the doc is a Mirantis doc? | 05:52 |
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| yamahata | natarajk: I'm seeing mirantis doc | 05:53 |
| natarajk | Brocade used Mirantis consultants | 05:53 |
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| yamahata | natarajk: can you please add the link to the wiki page? | 05:53 |
| s3wong | natarajk: from your description, it is a service VM pool manager? | 05:53 |
| natarajk | Yamahata: Yes, that's correct | 05:54 |
| yamahata | #action natarajk add dnrm page to the wiki | 05:54 |
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| bmelande | natarajk: The scheduler is not part of resource manager, right? | 05:54 |
| natarajk | yamahata: Correct. It's part of Neutron | 05:54 |
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| natarajk | yamahata: But we had a very simple scheduler to start with | 05:55 |
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| yamahata | natarajk: thanks for explanation. | 05:57 |
| yamahata | anything else to discuss? | 05:57 |
| natarajk | yamahata: Welcome. DNRM's Neutron/Nova code is based on havana. Resource manager can be reused now | 05:57 |
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| yamahata | Okay let's meet next week. (or on nfv meeting) | 05:58 |
| yamahata | #endmeeting | 05:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 05:58 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 24 05:58:26 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 05:58 |
| s3wong | cool, finished 2 minutes early! | 05:58 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-06-24-05.02.html | 05:58 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-06-24-05.02.txt | 05:58 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/servicevm_device_manager/2014/servicevm_device_manager.2014-06-24-05.02.log.html | 05:58 |
| s3wong | Thanks, guys! | 05:58 |
| yamahata | thanks | 05:58 |
| bmelande | yamahata, natarajk: Cisco also has a device resource manager, along with scheduler | 05:58 |
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| s3wong | bmelande: is that part of your device manager? | 05:59 |
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| yamahata | bmelande: Do you mean https://review.openstack.org/92004 ? | 05:59 |
| bmelande | The scheduler is separate from device manager | 05:59 |
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| bmelande | You can find an illustration of the relationssghips in this BP: | 06:00 |
| bmelande | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/91071/ | 06:00 |
| bmelande | Sorry, wrong link | 06:01 |
| bmelande | Here is the correct one: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/91645/ | 06:01 |
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| bmelande | yamahata: The 92004 is the router scheduler that is able to scheduler neutron routers to l3 agents (for namespace-based Neutron routers) or to service VMs | 06:03 |
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| yamahata | bmelande: I see. I'll re-review your specs/codes. | 06:04 |
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| bmelande | yamahata: The juno code branch I linked to is in sync with the device manager BP | 06:04 |
| bmelande | yamahata: and scheduler BPs | 06:05 |
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| sc68cal | Hello everyone | 13:59 |
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| xuhanp | hello | 13:59 |
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| carlp | sc68cal: morning | 13:59 |
| aveiga | o/ | 13:59 |
| sc68cal | #startmeeting neutron_ipv6 | 13:59 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 24 13:59:48 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is sc68cal. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 13:59 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 13:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_ipv6)" | 13:59 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'neutron_ipv6' | 13:59 |
| sc68cal | #topic blueprints | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "blueprints (Meeting topic: neutron_ipv6)" | 14:00 | |
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| sc68cal | Here's what's scheduled for J-2 | 14:01 |
| sc68cal | https://launchpad.net/neutron/+milestone/juno-2 | 14:01 |
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| sc68cal | It looks like we need to have that updated, to reflect what we are currently working on | 14:03 |
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| HenryG | Sorry I am late | 14:05 |
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| sc68cal | Do we have any new blueprints to discuss? | 14:05 |
| BrianB__ | It's missing a few BP | 14:05 |
| xuhanp | sc68cal, I've update the SLAAC spec to stateful/stateless | 14:05 |
| xuhanp | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/99595/ | 14:05 |
| xuhanp | it still has Mark's -2 on it. | 14:06 |
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| xuhanp | And I am not sure if we should set this stateful/stateless spec be dependent on the RADVD spec | 14:07 |
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| sc68cal | xuhanp: it may be worth abandoning that review and creating another | 14:07 |
| xuhanp | sc68cal, that may work :-) | 14:08 |
| sc68cal | since that review was originally targeted to slaac/slaac and the -2 from mark is significant, since they wanted us to not have dnsmasq advertise routes | 14:08 |
| sc68cal | and work on radvd instead | 14:08 |
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| sc68cal | that may be useful for historical purposes | 14:08 |
| aveiga | xuhanp: dnsmasq shouldn't be dependant on radvd | 14:09 |
| xuhanp | sc68cal, ok that makes sense. I've already got some comments. will see what I can do. | 14:09 |
| sc68cal | BrianB__: do you know which BPs are missing? | 14:09 |
| aveiga | just make the dependancy "assuming an RA is present" since provider nets can do RAs too | 14:09 |
| xuhanp | aveiga, that's what I thought. | 14:09 |
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| xuhanp | aveiga, ok. will modify that. | 14:10 |
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| dane_leblanc | sc68cal: I don't see RADVD and the multi prefix in the J2 blueprint list | 14:11 |
| aveiga | dane_leblanc: the RADVD is still pending +2 | 14:11 |
| sc68cal | hmm yeah https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/neutron-ipv6-radvd-ra has no series goal | 14:12 |
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| sc68cal | #action sc68cal get https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/neutron-ipv6-radvd-ra set to the correct Juno milestone | 14:13 |
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| sc68cal | OK - do we have anything else to discuss in the blueprint topic | 14:15 |
| dane_leblanc | Have you had a chance to review my comments for multiple prefix BP? | 14:16 |
| BrianB__ | sc68cal, sorry could not find the link I was ref to radvd and http://wikicentral.cisco.com/display/OPENSTACK/Blueprint+ideas | 14:16 |
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| BrianB__ | https://review.openstack.org/98217 | 14:17 |
| sc68cal | looks like that wikicentral times out for me | 14:17 |
| BrianB__ | sorry c&p error | 14:18 |
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| sc68cal | dane_leblanc: I'll take a look at your comments | 14:18 |
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| xuhanp | I will review that spec too. | 14:19 |
| sc68cal | at this point it looks like there is either bugs in sphinx or something because the references come out a little broken, but I've seen a couple specs like that | 14:19 |
| dane_leblanc | sc68cal: Thanks, that BP is stalled with -1 | 14:19 |
| sc68cal | HenryG: how is https://review.openstack.org/#/c/101306/ going | 14:21 |
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| HenryG | Looks like just nits remaining | 14:22 |
| xuhanp | I just gave a -1 today. Sorry about that late comment | 14:22 |
| HenryG | I will address them and ask for approval | 14:22 |
| HenryG | xuhanp: np | 14:22 |
| sc68cal | dane_leblanc: I think once we get the radvd implementation underway we'll be able to give more bandwidth to other reviews, like your multi prefix bp | 14:23 |
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| sc68cal | #topic code review | 14:24 |
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| sc68cal | Any reviews that need eyeballs? | 14:25 |
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| xuhanp | sc68cal, I can use some reviews on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/101433/ | 14:25 |
| sc68cal | I try and keep a list current for the main meeting - to get cores focused on specific reviews - https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Network/Meetings#IPv6_.28sc68cal.29 | 14:26 |
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| sc68cal | xuhanp: cool I'll add that to the list | 14:26 |
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| xuhanp | and this one: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/80932/ | 14:26 |
| xuhanp | I think it's listed as the dependency of the RADVD implementation | 14:27 |
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| sc68cal | xuhanp: agree | 14:28 |
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| Shixiong_ | xuhanp, do you need me to review those two code submissions? | 14:28 |
| Shixiong_ | 101433, and 80932? | 14:29 |
| xuhanp | Shixiong_, sure. these are two Ipv6 related bugs | 14:29 |
| xuhanp | thanks | 14:29 |
| Shixiong_ | ok, will do | 14:29 |
| sc68cal | cool - any others that I need to bring to core's attention? | 14:31 |
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| sc68cal | #topic bugs | 14:32 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "bugs (Meeting topic: neutron_ipv6)" | 14:32 | |
| sc68cal | https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bugs?field.tag=ipv6 | 14:32 |
| sc68cal | If you've reported a bug and don't see it in that list, please add the ipv6 tag to it :) | 14:33 |
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| sc68cal | any other bugs to discuss? otherwise we'll do open discussion | 14:35 |
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| sc68cal | #topic open discussion | 14:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: neutron_ipv6)" | 14:36 | |
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| sc68cal | If there's nothing else, I'll give everyone back 20 minutes. I'm always in #openstack-neutron if you need me | 14:40 |
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| sc68cal | See everyone next week! | 14:41 |
| sc68cal | #endmeeting | 14:41 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 14:41 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 24 14:41:34 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:41 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-06-24-13.59.html | 14:41 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-06-24-13.59.txt | 14:41 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_ipv6/2014/neutron_ipv6.2014-06-24-13.59.log.html | 14:41 |
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| n0ano | #startmeeting gantt | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 24 15:00:44 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'gantt' | 15:00 |
| n0ano | anyone here to talk about the scheduler? | 15:00 |
| bauzas | \o | 15:00 |
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| bauzas | sounds like the crowds are silent :) | 15:01 |
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| n0ano | listen to the crickets :-) | 15:02 |
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| bauzas | well, it's the Summer, so that's possible :) | 15:02 |
| n0ano | well, we can make it quick | 15:02 |
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| n0ano | #topic code forklift | 15:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "code forklift (Meeting topic: gantt)" | 15:02 | |
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| bauzas | soooooo | 15:03 |
| bauzas | long debates this week with johnthetubaguy :) | 15:03 |
| n0ano | I see that john garbutt doesn't like one of your patches, is that one crucial | 15:03 |
| bauzas | well, which one do you refer ? | 15:03 |
| n0ano | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/97232/ | 15:03 |
| bauzas | ah, this one | 15:04 |
| bauzas | (I know now all of them by the numbers ;) ) | 15:04 |
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| n0ano | it's shorter :-) | 15:04 |
| bauzas | so, indeed, the problem is about how we care until Gantt is out | 15:04 |
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| bauzas | I finally agreed with John | 15:04 |
| n0ano | if we can do the split and then do 97232 then I don't have a problem waiting for it also, my prime goal is just doing the split | 15:05 |
| bauzas | indeed | 15:05 |
| bauzas | we will still have many things to do | 15:05 |
| n0ano | I looked at 82778 and didn't see anything wrong (probably a weakness in my pyhthon foo) | 15:06 |
| bauzas | so, let's unscope 97232 from the pre-split tasks | 15:06 |
| n0ano | +1 | 15:06 |
| bauzas | yey, the real debate is about 82778 | 15:06 |
| bauzas | everything was fine until last week... | 15:06 |
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| bauzas | the idea is to update the stats without returning nothing | 15:07 |
| bauzas | that's cool | 15:07 |
| bauzas | but... | 15:07 |
| * johnthetubaguy waves | 15:07 | |
| bauzas | (teaser) | 15:07 |
| bauzas | so, everything is setup in resourcetracker and updated to the scheduler | 15:07 |
| bauzas | nothing is needed to be returned to RT | 15:07 |
| bauzas | nothing but... | 15:08 |
| bauzas | I discovered a section of PCI code asking explicitely for the compute node id | 15:08 |
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| bauzas | which is not returned back when creating | 15:08 |
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| bauzas | so that's blocking the creation of computenode in TR | 15:08 |
| bauzas | RT | 15:08 |
| n0ano | yeah, things can get very intertwined | 15:09 |
| bauzas | I did the PCI code review and there is no clear benefit of keeping the cn id | 15:09 |
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| bauzas | that's basically for raising an exception and saying which CN is failing | 15:09 |
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| bauzas | so, yjiang5 agreed on removing that cn id from PCI | 15:09 |
| bauzas | but until that, compute node creations has to be done on the RT side | 15:10 |
| n0ano | so now you're dependent upon the change to the PCI code, right? | 15:10 |
| bauzas | nope | 15:10 |
| bauzas | because that's life, and we have to figure out another way | 15:10 |
| johnthetubaguy | n0ano: I think we can leave compute node in nova basically | 15:10 |
| johnthetubaguy | n0ano: and gantt just has its own copy | 15:11 |
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| bauzas | that was most of the previous talk I had with johnthetubaguy, about keeping compute node in Nova :) | 15:11 |
| johnthetubaguy | n0ano: so PCI stuff still goes in there tables (till they fix that) | 15:11 |
| bauzas | so n0ano your thoughts are welcome here :) | 15:11 |
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| johnthetubaguy | yeah, would be good to agree a direction here | 15:11 |
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| johnthetubaguy | I am pro leaving compute node in nova, and just not populating the stats there when we switch to gantt | 15:12 |
| n0ano | a little concerned about 2 copies of compute node (one in nova, one in gantt) but, if we're careful, it's probably OK | 15:12 |
| johnthetubaguy | that way we don't have to wait for PCI, they can do that at there own speed | 15:12 |
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| n0ano | +1 (not being depenent upon PCI changes is good) | 15:13 |
| johnthetubaguy | n0ano: yeah, it just means we wrip it out of Nova later, and gantt needs a separate database and schema anyways | 15:13 |
| bauzas | +1 too | 15:13 |
| n0ano | I'm hearing violent agreement | 15:13 |
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| bauzas | yey, but the debate is not there :) | 15:13 |
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| bauzas | now we agree to workaround the current situation (RT has to know the CN ID) | 15:14 |
| PaulMurray | bauzas, what does it take for PCI stuff to be done first | 15:14 |
| bauzas | what's the best option ? | 15:14 |
| bauzas | PaulMurray: good question, a quick code review showed me little effort here | 15:14 |
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| PaulMurray | bauzas, so why not do it? | 15:14 |
| bauzas | PaulMurray: but I'm possibly missing a crucial thing | 15:14 |
| PaulMurray | bauzas, I think you said it was for information in the exceptions? | 15:15 |
| PaulMurray | bauzas, or at least logging | 15:15 |
| n0ano | PaulMurray, I've been waiting 2 weeks for a simple change, things can take a long time to get done | 15:15 |
| bauzas | PaulMurray: because PCI code is very sensitive, I have no way to correctly test it :) | 15:15 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, its not worth doing PCI code | 15:15 |
| PaulMurray | n0ano, no s*** | 15:15 |
| johnthetubaguy | bauzas: I got confused where we are debating to be honest | 15:16 |
| bauzas | PaulMurray: and I unfortunately discovered that PCI testing is a bit unsufficient because Jenkins was still happy with my change even if I was not giving back the id.... :) | 15:16 |
| n0ano | the more stuff we are responsible for, the better | 15:16 |
| johnthetubaguy | bauzas: yes, no PCI passthrough testing in the gate right now | 15:16 |
| johnthetubaguy | n0ano: turns out we get PCI stats for scheduling OK, its just some internal account stuff that not scheduling related that happens to use ComputeNode that would stay in nova | 15:17 |
| bauzas | ok, everyone happy with leaving compute nodes in RT ? | 15:17 |
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| PaulMurray | bauzas, no, but understand it may be better than waiting on pci | 15:17 |
| johnthetubaguy | PaulMurray: what your worry with compute node in RT | 15:18 |
| n0ano | johnthetubaguy, as I said, a little icky (2 copies) but probably OK, something to fix as soon as possible once gantt is split out | 15:18 |
| bauzas | PaulMurray: the alternative was to give back the id when creating the node in Scheduler client code | 15:18 |
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| johnthetubaguy | n0ano: its just a slightly empty nova structure, the gnatt one will have to be different in shape regardless | 15:18 |
| PaulMurray | bauzas, johnthetubaguy its only about making things cleaner for me | 15:19 |
| johnthetubaguy | n0ano: there should be no data in two places, except the name | 15:19 |
| bauzas | I made various code proposals about the split in different patchsets | 15:19 |
| johnthetubaguy | PaulMurray: right, I see it as delete the ComputeNode independently of the scheduler split | 15:19 |
| bauzas | people can compare and appreciate which one is better | 15:19 |
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| bauzas | I'm still having a -1 from Jenkins on the last patchset, but probably a short miss | 15:20 |
| bauzas | or some tests to fix | 15:20 |
| PaulMurray | bauzas, is the latest the one to review? | 15:20 |
| bauzas | one sec, checking | 15:20 |
| PaulMurray | bauzas, you made 3 revisions since I started to look | 15:20 |
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| johnthetubaguy | so, for the record, I am kinda pushing for this sort of approach: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/101858/ | 15:21 |
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| n0ano | bauzas, you do have a -1, I missed that (I `hate` color encodings) | 15:21 |
| bauzas | ok, lemme give you details | 15:21 |
| johnthetubaguy | basically, just move self.conductor_api.compute_node_update into the scheduler client | 15:21 |
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| bauzas | patchset #26 is everything done in Scheduler, compute nodes owned by sched client | 15:22 |
| johnthetubaguy | so we drop a gantt client that would take the same stats and store them somewhere else, if you don't want nova-scheduler | 15:22 |
| bauzas | nah, nevermind | 15:22 |
| bauzas | so | 15:22 |
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| johnthetubaguy | its a tricky line to draw, thats agreed here | 15:23 |
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| bauzas | so, patchset #26 is everything done in sched client | 15:23 |
| n0ano | johnthetubaguy, +2 (plus the devil is in the details) | 15:23 |
| bauzas | patchset #27 is john's proposal about keeping creation in RT | 15:23 |
| bauzas | patchset #30 is a CRUD interface | 15:23 |
| bauzas | (everything done in sched client) | 15:24 |
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| johnthetubaguy | yup, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/101858 (which because #27) is just updating the stats in the client, and leaving the compute node in the RT | 15:24 |
| bauzas | patchset #31 is john's idea, but a little rewritten | 15:24 |
| PaulMurray | bauzas, I'm wondering if this should be marked work in progress | 15:24 |
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| bauzas | PaulMurray: I can, at least until Jenkins is happy | 15:25 |
| bauzas | PaulMurray: but situation is changing everyday because of the confusion | 15:25 |
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| bauzas | yesterday, it was OK for reviewing | 15:25 |
| PaulMurray | bauzas, its the latter I was thinking about | 15:25 |
| bauzas | ok, putting WIP now | 15:25 |
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| PaulMurray | bauzas, although I know people don't review WIP# | 15:26 |
| johnthetubaguy | bauzas: my patch had some fixed up unit tests you might want to borrow | 15:26 |
| PaulMurray | bauzas, but I will :) | 15:26 |
| bauzas | well, I think we need to agree on the approach | 15:26 |
| johnthetubaguy | bauzas: what have we not agreed on at this point? | 15:27 |
| bauzas | everyone's happy with keeping cn creation in RT and cn update in scheduler client ? | 15:27 |
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| n0ano | bauzas, +1 (that's my understanding) | 15:27 |
| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: I was feeling a little confusion over here | 15:27 |
| bauzas | PaulMurray ? | 15:27 |
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| PaulMurray | bauzas, not sure | 15:27 |
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| PaulMurray | bauzas, I think I am probably not deep enough into the problems here | 15:28 |
| bauzas | PaulMurray: could you then review all the patchsets I mentioned and leave a comment directly in Gerrit ? | 15:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | so just be mess things up a bit, I don't think we keep ComputeNode in RT, I think we remove that separately to this client work | 15:28 |
| PaulMurray | bauzas, yes, I was half way through looking but got confused over what I should be looking at | 15:28 |
| bauzas | this blueprint is awfully time-consuming, and I just want to make sure we all agree on what needs to be done | 15:28 |
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| bauzas | the last 2 weeks were about doing back and forthes on that patch, just want to make sure everybody will like the direction :) | 15:29 |
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| PaulMurray | bauzas, by "create compute node" do yo mean the conductor call to create it in db or do you mean the compute_node data structure? | 15:30 |
| bauzas | RT will still issue the call to conductor create, and the DB model will stay in Nova :) | 15:30 |
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| PaulMurray | bauzas, I would prefer to see the db create and update in client library, but as I said | 15:31 |
| bauzas | but in the proposal, the sched client is doing the update call | 15:31 |
| PaulMurray | bauzas, I not sure I yunderstand the difficulties | 15:31 |
| bauzas | to the conductor | 15:31 |
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| bauzas | well, there is no difficulty in having sched client owning the creation | 15:31 |
| bauzas | you can look at patchset #26 | 15:32 |
| bauzas | that was the case | 15:32 |
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| bauzas | we just need to return the id when the creation is done | 15:32 |
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| johnthetubaguy | PaulMurray: let me find you a quick link, its this... | 15:32 |
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| johnthetubaguy | PaulMurray: https://github.com/openstack/nova/blob/master/nova/db/sqlalchemy/models.py#L1378 | 15:32 |
| PaulMurray | n0ano, as a process point, is it ok dwelling on this in this meeting? | 15:33 |
| johnthetubaguy | PCI device stats are stored with a foreignkey into compute node table | 15:33 |
| n0ano | PaulMurray, sure, this is the only agenda item for today | 15:33 |
| johnthetubaguy | its not scheduler info, its resource tracker only state, so needs to stay in Nova | 15:33 |
| bauzas | PaulMurray: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/82778/26/nova/scheduler/client.py here is the proposal having sched client owning conductor calls | 15:33 |
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| johnthetubaguy | PaulMurray: if the scheduler client owns the compute node, it ends up passing back the id, so that the compute node id is known to the PCI tracer | 15:34 |
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| johnthetubaguy | PaulMurray: so when you replace the nova scheduler client, the gantt client would have to still access the nova db, which is not allowed, so we need to first change the PCI stats, then we also end up pass back in id that should be interal to gantt, and its all very confusing | 15:35 |
| n0ano | as I understand it, this is all a little convoluted in order to make the current PCI code happy | 15:35 |
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| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: I'm just wondering if we can imagine such scenario : | 15:35 |
| johnthetubaguy | n0ano: yeah, further I think it doesn't work when you add in the gantt client, until you change the nova DB structures for the PCI devices | 15:35 |
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| bauzas | 1. merge the client to place all creation/update calls and return the id with a FIXME comment | 15:36 |
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| bauzas | 2. do the PCI work of removing that FK | 15:36 |
| johnthetubaguy | updates only seems to work both ways though, although it leaves the old DB structures in Nova, till it deletes them, which we have to do anyway due to the different deprecation cycles | 15:36 |
| n0ano | johnthetubaguy, well, one good thing is jiang is in my group so I can probably get his attention to make PCI changes :-) | 15:36 |
| bauzas | 3. provide a Gantt client | 15:36 |
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| johnthetubaguy | n0ano: right, but its a bit chain of changes that may never get into trunk | 15:37 |
| bauzas | anyway,we're far from proposing a Gantt client now so there is high probability to have the PCI fix before the use of a Gantt client in Nova | 15:37 |
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| n0ano | johnthetubaguy, which is why we work around the PCI code for now and worry about fixing it later | 15:38 |
| PaulMurray | n0ano, the reason I didn't get the ComputeNode object done in RT a while back was difficulties with PCI | 15:38 |
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| PaulMurray | n0ano, that's why I am sympathetic to the "PCI avoidance route" | 15:38 |
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| johnthetubaguy | n0ano: yeah, thats my preference | 15:38 |
| PaulMurray | n0ano, sooner or later we need to clean up the PCI code | 15:38 |
| n0ano | unfortunate that all roads lead back to the PCI code, oh well | 15:38 |
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| bauzas | and there is high visibility because of the SRIOV efforts | 15:39 |
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| n0ano | I don't have a problem with PCI & SR/IOV, it's just the implementation that needs to be cleaned up | 15:39 |
| PaulMurray | n0ano, there was a suggestion (possibly from jiang) to make PCI a resource plugin for extensible RT | 15:39 |
| bauzas | n0ano: +1 | 15:40 |
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| PaulMurray | n0ano, we could try to make an effort to sort it out if that ever comes about | 15:40 |
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| n0ano | mid-cycle meetup coming soon, we should raise that issue then (both jiang & I will be there) | 15:41 |
| PaulMurray | n0ano, me too | 15:41 |
| bauzas | I won't be able to be there :( | 15:41 |
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| n0ano | bauzas, NP, I'll do your proxy :-) | 15:41 |
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| bauzas | my wife had the unsupportable thing to expect to release my 2.0 baby by these dates | 15:42 |
| johnthetubaguy | I will be at the mid-cylce | 15:42 |
| johnthetubaguy | just not really sure what we are disagreeing about here | 15:42 |
| n0ano | bauzas, congratulations, that's a good excuse | 15:42 |
| n0ano | johnthetubaguy, seems like the current PCI implementation is impacting two different areas, that's an indication that somethings wrong | 15:43 |
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| bauzas | anyway, that's also a matter of timeline | 15:43 |
| bauzas | I would prefer this code to be merged before Juno-2 | 15:43 |
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| johnthetubaguy | n0ano: yes, but we seem to have a solution to that now, but maybe I am missing something | 15:43 |
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| bauzas | basically, the refactor is very simple, but we care about how we should do it | 15:43 |
| n0ano | johnthetubaguy, a work around for us but we would still like the PCI code to change later | 15:44 |
| johnthetubaguy | n0ano: oh very true, I think the SRIOV stuff gets most of that into a better place, but there are other bits of work | 15:45 |
| n0ano | as I keep saying, the devil is in the details | 15:45 |
| bauzas | maybe I'm wrong, but if we talk about workarounds, why returning an id can't be a possible approach ? | 15:45 |
| n0ano | bauzas, would that require changes to the PCI code? | 15:46 |
| PaulMurray | bauzas, the db interface passes back the whole data structure with the id filled in | 15:46 |
| johnthetubaguy | bauzas: what id are you returning, is the problem? and why, the key into the DB should the (compute host, compute node) tripple that gets returned from select destinations | 15:46 |
| bauzas | n0ano: nope | 15:46 |
| PaulMurray | bauzas, could do same? | 15:46 |
| johnthetubaguy | PaulMurray: I just don't see what the scheduler should have to return the values you just sent it, given the values are out of date when you send them, but you know the better values yourself | 15:47 |
| johnthetubaguy | ^ oops, why the scheduler, not what | 15:47 |
| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: if we say that https://review.openstack.org/#/c/82778/26/nova/scheduler/client.py is returning the compute_node['id'], that's a workaround | 15:47 |
| PaulMurray | johnthetubaguy, yes, fair enough | 15:48 |
| johnthetubaguy | bauzas: but what would the gantt client do when you drop it in there? | 15:48 |
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| johnthetubaguy | bauzas: it is writing into a different database, so the id will not help the PCI stats that still talks to the Nova db | 15:48 |
| bauzas | but we agreed to ask PCI guys to do the removal ? | 15:48 |
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| PaulMurray | bauzas, isn't the PCI stats part of the compute node information that would go to the scheduler? | 15:49 |
| bauzas | as I said, in terms of planning, this is far sooner to remove the FK in PCI table that having Nova making use of a Gantt client | 15:49 |
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| johnthetubaguy | bauzas: its a bit trickier on the PCI side, it might make sense to keep it | 15:49 |
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| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: well, yjiang5 said he was ok to remove it | 15:49 |
| johnthetubaguy | bauzas: can we go back to the question around the id, what would you return, and how does it help the PCI stats? | 15:50 |
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| johnthetubaguy | bauzas: it should go into the persistent resource tracker BP, so its more of a move, but lets not get distracted by PCI details | 15:50 |
| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/82778/26/nova/scheduler/client.py L65 I would return values['id'] | 15:50 |
| johnthetubaguy | bauzas: but its from the gantt db, not the nova db, so doesn't help the PCI stats | 15:51 |
| johnthetubaguy | that id doesn't exist in the nova db | 15:51 |
| johnthetubaguy | (when using the gantt client) | 15:51 |
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| * bauzas would love to see all of you in person :) | 15:53 | |
| PaulMurray | maybe we need our own meet up | 15:53 |
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| johnthetubaguy | https://awwapp.com/draw.html#0dca39e5 | 15:53 |
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| bauzas | I'm saying that once we will a gantt client | 15:53 |
| n0ano | PaulMurray, unfortunately, the july in Oregon and nov and Pars are the only near term options | 15:54 |
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| n0ano | s/and Pars/in Paris | 15:54 |
| johnthetubaguy | bauzas: thats what I am trying to say, the id is from the wrong database: https://awwapp.com/draw.html#0dca39e5 | 15:54 |
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| bauzas | we would possibly move the conductor calls back in RT in the _update() method and make use of the client, if necessary | 15:55 |
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| johnthetubaguy | bauzas: you can't access the nova DB directly from compute nodes, security reasons, so we need the conductor for that | 15:55 |
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| johnthetubaguy | the scheduler might need its own conductor, but thats a different story | 15:56 |
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| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: I would so love to show you my thoughts in the code directly... | 15:56 |
| johnthetubaguy | (I have a gantt API plan in my head that doesn't involve REST...) | 15:56 |
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| johnthetubaguy | bauzas: which bit? | 15:56 |
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| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/82778/26/nova/compute/resource_tracker.py | 15:58 |
| bauzas | johnthetubaguy: consider this one the trunk with gantt in use | 15:58 |
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| n0ano | unfortunately, I have another meeting and we're running out of time, I'll have to send you guys over to #openstack-nova | 15:59 |
| johnthetubaguy | bauzas: so thats basically the gantt client I am imagining, but it talks to the scheduler "conductor", but right now that would break PCI if it were the nova client as well | 15:59 |
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| bauzas | let's move to #openstack-nova :) | 16:00 |
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| n0ano | so, I'll thank everyone, looking forward to an updated patch, and we'll talk again next week | 16:00 |
| johnthetubaguy | bauzas: +1 | 16:00 |
| bauzas | n0ano: thanks a lot :) | 16:00 |
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| n0ano | #endmeeting | 16:00 |
| PaulMurray | bye n0ano | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 24 16:00:25 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-06-24-15.00.html | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-06-24-15.00.txt | 16:00 |
| n0ano | bye all | 16:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/gantt/2014/gantt.2014-06-24-15.00.log.html | 16:00 |
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| boris-42 | #startmeeting Rally | 17:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 24 17:00:03 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is boris-42. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'rally' | 17:00 |
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| boris-42 | msdubov hughsaunders marcoemorais ping | 17:00 |
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| marcoemorais | boris-42: heya | 17:01 |
| meteorfox | boris-42: hi | 17:01 |
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| coolsvap | heya | 17:01 |
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| k4n0 | I am here for rally meeting | 17:01 |
| k4n0 | o/ | 17:02 |
| boris-42 | =) | 17:02 |
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| boris-42 | Hi all | 17:02 |
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| oanufriev | hi | 17:02 |
| tzabal | hi | 17:02 |
| boris-42 | let's just wait a couple of minutes | 17:03 |
| olkonami | hi | 17:03 |
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| boris-42 | so let's start=) | 17:04 |
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| boris-42 | #topic we should do something with our unit test coverage | 17:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "we should do something with our unit test coverage (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:05 | |
| boris-42 | Okay recently (today) I added new job in Jenkins | 17:05 |
| boris-42 | that will create cover report on every patch | 17:05 |
| boris-42 | job is called rally-coverage | 17:06 |
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| boris-42 | and if you click on it you'll see pretty html report | 17:06 |
| boris-42 | (red lines means that code is not covered by unit tests) | 17:06 |
| redixin | sorry i late -_- | 17:06 |
| boris-42 | We should have 100% coverage | 17:06 |
| boris-42 | Any questions? | 17:06 |
| k4n0 | boris-42, 100% should be enforced on gates | 17:06 |
| boris-42 | k4n0 99^ | 17:07 |
| boris-42 | k4n0 +1 for that to have some kind of 98% as a lower border for coverage | 17:07 |
| boris-42 | k4n0 otherwise just -1 | 17:07 |
| k4n0 | +1 | 17:07 |
| boris-42 | but first of all we need to cover everything tests=) | 17:07 |
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| boris-42 | okay next topic | 17:08 |
| k4n0 | We can split up modules and start writing tests , maybe do this on a google doc or something | 17:08 |
| boris-42 | k4n0 probably we should make some kind of blueprint | 17:08 |
| boris-42 | k4n0 and workitems | 17:08 |
| boris-42 | ? | 17:08 |
| redixin | +1 for blueprint | 17:08 |
| k4n0 | boris-42, blueprint is also good, ill make one after meeting | 17:09 |
| boris-42 | k4n0 thanks | 17:09 |
| boris-42 | so we will be able to split work | 17:09 |
| boris-42 | and work together | 17:09 |
| boris-42 | okay next topic | 17:09 |
| k4n0 | ok | 17:09 |
| boris-42 | #topic osprofiler | 17:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "osprofiler (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:09 | |
| k4n0 | #action make blueprint for unit test coverage | 17:09 |
| boris-42 | Okay guys I made a last changes in API | 17:10 |
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| boris-42 | and cover it 100% by unit tests | 17:10 |
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| boris-42 | Going to launch devstack with it | 17:10 |
| boris-42 | and if there is no issues I will cut release | 17:10 |
| boris-42 | Any questions?) | 17:10 |
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| boris-42 | https://github.com/stackforge/osprofiler this is library if somebody doesn't know =) | 17:11 |
| boris-42 | Okay moving to next topc | 17:11 |
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| boris-42 | #topic Rally SLA | 17:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Rally SLA (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:12 | |
| boris-42 | redixin plsss be more verbose | 17:12 |
| boris-42 | =) | 17:12 |
| k4n0 | what is Rally SLA ? | 17:12 |
| boris-42 | redixin and tell us what is it and status | 17:12 |
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| redixin | rally sla is just one more section in the task config file | 17:13 |
| redixin | it is possible to specify criterios | 17:13 |
| redixin | like maximum error rate | 17:13 |
| redixin | or time limits | 17:13 |
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| k4n0 | that is great | 17:13 |
| redixin | task is going as usual, but there is special command to check if task was successful or not | 17:14 |
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| redixin | according to criterios | 17:14 |
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| redixin | here is the patch https://review.openstack.org/#/c/98158/ | 17:14 |
| boris-42 | redixin btw we will need to add it to HTML | 17:14 |
| boris-42 | redixin somehow (e.g. does it pass or not criteria) and details | 17:15 |
| boris-42 | redixin I'll think about it | 17:15 |
| redixin | yes, we can add one more table to html results | 17:15 |
| redixin | and one more table to task detailed outpu | 17:15 |
| boris-42 | redixin yep | 17:15 |
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| boris-42 | So as well our jobs check-rally-dsvm-rally and check-rally-dsvm-neutron-rally | 17:16 |
| boris-42 | will be able to check more carefully | 17:16 |
| boris-42 | benchmarks | 17:16 |
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| boris-42 | e.g. we can setup for most of them that there is no failures | 17:17 |
| boris-42 | so we won't need to go and take a look every time on all tasks | 17:17 |
| boris-42 | any questions? | 17:17 |
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| boris-42 | #topic stress runner | 17:20 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "stress runner (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:20 | |
| boris-42 | olkonami pls could you introduce us? | 17:21 |
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| olkonami | it is runner which increase concurrency stepwise | 17:22 |
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| olkonami | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/94806/ | 17:22 |
| boris-42 | olkonami is it ready? | 17:22 |
| olkonami | boris-42: not yet | 17:23 |
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| boris-42 | olkonami ok any questions about it? | 17:24 |
| k4n0 | olkonami, when does it stop increasing concurrency? | 17:24 |
| k4n0 | olkonami, i mean if lots of api errors start coming up due to increased load, does it still keep increasing concurrency? | 17:25 |
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| olkonami | k4n0: we have max_failure_rate parameter for that, if it is exceeded, it will stop increasing | 17:26 |
| k4n0 | olkonami, ok so that is max failure for atomic action ? | 17:26 |
| k4n0 | olkonami, I will check the patch in detail, we can move on for now :) | 17:27 |
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| olkonami | k4n0, sorry, don't understand question | 17:28 |
| boris-42 | k4n0 nope for atomic action | 17:28 |
| boris-42 | k4n0 for whole iteration | 17:28 |
| k4n0 | boris-42, got it | 17:28 |
| boris-42 | k4n0 so it will run with some constant load | 17:28 |
| boris-42 | k4n0 for some period | 17:28 |
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| boris-42 | k4n0 before increasing load it will check | 17:28 |
| boris-42 | k4n0 that success / all is > then some parameter | 17:29 |
| k4n0 | boris-42, cool , got it | 17:29 |
| boris-42 | #topic RPS runner (or refactored periodic) | 17:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "RPS runner (or refactored periodic) (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:29 | |
| boris-42 | oanufriev hey could you share updates ? | 17:29 |
| olkonami | also now parameter for regular stop incrasing is named "growth_count", do someone have better proposes? | 17:29 |
| redixin | start, step, stop | 17:30 |
| oanufriev | sorry, i can share them in 1.5 haur. Thereis a bug in unit test that causes memory leak | 17:30 |
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| oanufriev | if it's about code | 17:31 |
| oanufriev | and about works | 17:31 |
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| oanufriev | periodic runner has been redesigned to check rps parameter instead period | 17:32 |
| oanufriev | so now it should be understanded as N runs per second | 17:33 |
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| oanufriev | also i made extensible pool of multiprocessing.Process instances instead of using fixed lenght list of pools | 17:34 |
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| oanufriev | that was made to decrease memory usage and related failures | 17:34 |
| oanufriev | questions | 17:35 |
| oanufriev | ? | 17:35 |
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| boris-42 | oanufriev when can we see any patches related to this? | 17:36 |
| oanufriev | in 1.5 hour at gerrit ^) | 17:36 |
| oanufriev | in 1.5 hour at gerrit :) | 17:36 |
| boris-42 | oanufriev great | 17:37 |
| boris-42 | any questions from anybody? | 17:37 |
| boris-42 | marcoemorais hughsaunders rediskin k4n0 olkonami ? | 17:37 |
| rediskin | nope | 17:37 |
| k4n0 | nope | 17:37 |
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| olkonami | no patchs - no questions :) | 17:38 |
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| boris-42 | lol=) | 17:39 |
| boris-42 | #topic rally & tempest | 17:39 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "rally & tempest (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:39 | |
| boris-42 | k4n0 any news?) | 17:39 |
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| k4n0 | no updates, I am working on fixing review comments on latest patch | 17:39 |
| k4n0 | I am generating html from json stored in DB | 17:39 |
| k4n0 | json is coming from tempest subunit logs | 17:40 |
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| k4n0 | Now i need to refactor the code such that we have a command like this "rally verify result -type html -out file.html " | 17:40 |
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| k4n0 | https://review.openstack.org/101917 | 17:41 |
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| boris-42 | k4n0 ok great | 17:44 |
| boris-42 | #topic Open Discussion | 17:44 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: Rally)" | 17:44 | |
| boris-42 | Anybody would like to discuss anything? | 17:44 |
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| boris-42 | hey hey hey?) | 17:46 |
| k4n0 | nothing from my end. I am not feeling well today | 17:46 |
| k4n0 | I have to get my wisdom tooth removed tomorrow :) | 17:46 |
| boris-42 | =) | 17:46 |
| boris-42 | k4n0 tomorrow? | 17:46 |
| boris-42 | k4n0 or yestardsy?) | 17:47 |
| k4n0 | tomorrow afternoon | 17:47 |
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| olkonami | k4n0, get well soon! | 17:48 |
| k4n0 | thanks | 17:48 |
| boris-42 | k4n0 oh | 17:48 |
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| boris-42 | k4n0 have the same experience on previous friday=) | 17:49 |
| boris-42 | I would like to try to avid such stuff in future=) | 17:49 |
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| k4n0 | boris-42, you also removed wisdom tooth? | 17:49 |
| boris-42 | k4n0 yep | 17:50 |
| boris-42 | k4n0 4 days ago | 17:50 |
| k4n0 | boris-42, haha, conincidence | 17:50 |
| k4n0 | boris-42, anyways, lets talk after meeting :) | 17:50 |
| boris-42 | k4n0 okay | 17:50 |
| boris-42 | I think we can end this meeting | 17:50 |
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| boris-42 | thank you all guys=) | 17:51 |
| oanufriev | boris-42 that's why you so angry =) | 17:51 |
| boris-42 | oanufriev yep =) | 17:51 |
| k4n0 | thanks all | 17:51 |
| k4n0 | oanufriev, haha | 17:51 |
| boris-42 | #endmeeting | 17:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:51 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 24 17:51:33 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:51 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-06-24-17.00.html | 17:51 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-06-24-17.00.txt | 17:51 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2014/rally.2014-06-24-17.00.log.html | 17:51 |
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| dolphm | ayoung, bknudson, dstanek, jamielennox, morganfainberg, stevemar, gyee, henrynash, topol, marekd, lbragstad, joesavak, shardy, fabiog, fmarco76, nkinder, lloydm, shrekuma, ksavich: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting | 18:00 |
| lbragstad | dolphm: hey | 18:00 |
| henrynash | hi | 18:00 |
| bknudson | hi | 18:00 |
| morganfainberg_L | allo | 18:01 |
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| dolphm | i was about to say the meeting agenda is empty today | 18:01 |
| morganfainberg_L | dolphm: added middleware to meeting notes just now | 18:01 |
| dolphm | and then morganfainberg_L went and ruined the party | 18:01 |
| morganfainberg_L | >.> | 18:01 |
| henrynash | (Henry is on a dodgy connection while on vacation is liable to go radio-silent at the drop of a hat) | 18:01 |
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| dolphm | henrynash: you should be radio silent already! | 18:01 |
| morganfainberg_L | henrynash: vacation and still on IRC? | 18:01 |
| dolphm | raise InvalidVacation('IRC') | 18:01 |
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| ayoung | yo | 18:02 |
| morganfainberg_L | dolphm:++ | 18:02 |
| henrynash | ok, ok, I just love you guys too much... | 18:02 |
| stevemar | o/ o/ | 18:02 |
| dstanek | o/ | 18:02 |
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| dolphm | #startmeeting keystone | 18:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 24 18:02:21 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is dolphm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:02 |
| topol | o/ | 18:02 |
| dolphm | nothing new on the hackathon front, so: | 18:02 |
| dolphm | #topic Keystone Middleware Repo Created! | 18:02 |
| gyee | \o | 18:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Keystone Middleware Repo Created! (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:02 | |
| dolphm | morganfainberg_L: o/ | 18:02 |
| morganfainberg_L | Middleware Repo is in! | 18:02 |
| ayoung | now the real work begins | 18:02 |
| morganfainberg_L | all new middleware code changes should go against keystonemiddleware | 18:02 |
| stevemar | yay another thing to track in gerrit | 18:03 |
| bknudson | so at some point it gets released | 18:03 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg_L: do we have patches to move everything over? | 18:03 |
| bknudson | any reason it can't be released today? | 18:03 |
| ayoung | we need to deprecate keystoneclient.middleware.* | 18:03 |
| morganfainberg_L | bknudson: i want to make sure we're not missing anything before we release | 18:03 |
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| morganfainberg_L | bknudson: but other than that no | 18:03 |
| bknudson | personally I'd rather changes were covered by tempest before merging anything new | 18:03 |
| ayoung | add to devstack | 18:03 |
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| morganfainberg_L | dolphm: everything should be moved over, history was preserved | 18:03 |
| morganfainberg_L | ayoung: yes, i am going to be proposing that fix today | 18:04 |
| ayoung | ++ | 18:04 |
| bknudson | I think devstack will install it once it's in requirements.txt | 18:04 |
| morganfainberg_L | bknudson: tempest and stable bitrot jobs are included | 18:04 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg_L: i was including that ^ in the notion of "move everything over" | 18:04 |
| morganfainberg_L | bknudson: no, it needs to be sources frmo the repo, like django_openstack_auth | 18:04 |
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| morganfainberg_L | dolphm: ++ | 18:04 |
| morganfainberg_L | the initial release will be 1.0.0 | 18:04 |
| dolphm | swapping imports in other projects as well | 18:04 |
| morganfainberg_L | we're calling this "stable" :) | 18:04 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg_L: ++ | 18:04 |
| morganfainberg_L | LP project has been created, pypi target as well | 18:05 |
| morganfainberg_L | dolphm holds the keys to release (same as ksc) | 18:05 |
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| bknudson | once it's released we'd change other projects to use it? | 18:05 |
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| dolphm | morganfainberg_L: let me know when to push buttons | 18:05 |
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| morganfainberg_L | bknudson: we can do an alpha release and do some initial work on that | 18:05 |
| bknudson | y, i'd expect an alpha release | 18:05 |
| dolphm | #action Everyone: add openstack/keystonemiddleware to your watched projects in gerrit | 18:06 |
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| morganfainberg_L | bknudson: basically, everyone do a once over, make sure it looks right, i'm working on the devstack front | 18:06 |
| morganfainberg_L | if there are no issues we can release an alpha (and get it in global reqs) soon | 18:06 |
| morganfainberg_L | #action We need tests for ec2_token middleware | 18:06 |
| bknudson | http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/keystonemiddleware/tree/ | 18:07 |
| bknudson | hehe | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg_L | there weren't any afaict | 18:07 |
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| morganfainberg_L | so i didn't port any | 18:07 |
| * ayoung takes a note that we are going to need a new RPM | 18:07 | |
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| morganfainberg_L | i verified before the repo was created docs build worked, pep8, and py27 worked | 18:07 |
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| dolphm | morganfainberg_L: proposed a change to openstack/governance https://review.openstack.org/#/c/102305/ | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg_L | once we release we can deprecate all the other middlewares. I'll be retargeting bugs in LP for ksc against middleware this week. | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg_L | dolphm: ++ :) | 18:08 |
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| morganfainberg_L | uh.. thats it from me :) | 18:09 |
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| topol | so we can stop watching keystoneclient? | 18:10 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg_L: danke! | 18:10 |
| ayoung | topol, you can | 18:10 |
| dolphm | topol: hell no | 18:10 |
| ayoung | heh | 18:10 |
| bknudson | keystoneclient still has the python API | 18:10 |
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| stevemar | topol, nope, just the middleware is being separated, still has all the library and API stuff | 18:10 |
| morganfainberg_L | dolphm: i'll send a nice email to -dev mailing list today as well. | 18:10 |
| dolphm | we'll have to alert packagers as well | 18:10 |
| stevemar | morganfainberg, ++ | 18:10 |
| morganfainberg_L | dolphm: sould i x-post to main openstack list? | 18:11 |
| topol | so on the keystone info page someone will update so newbies can find all the repos and what is in what? | 18:11 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg_L: i'd send a different note in that direction, honestly | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg_L | dolphm: ok | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg_L | dolphm: maybe we should wait to send there until we release | 18:11 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg_L: want to etherpad both? i could contribute a bit | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg_L | dolphm: ++ will do | 18:11 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg_L: ++ | 18:11 |
| bknudson | does keystonemiddleware have its own launchpad? (and where do bugs get reported?) | 18:11 |
| topol | cause we have blossomed a little :-) | 18:11 |
| morganfainberg_L | bknudson: yes it does | 18:11 |
| ayoung | #action topol to update keystone info page | 18:12 |
| dolphm | #action dolphm to move bugs to https://launchpad.net/keystonemiddleware | 18:12 |
| bknudson | https://launchpad.net/keystonemiddleware | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg_L | dolphm: let me know if you want help moving bugs around | 18:12 |
| topol | ayoung, cool. folks give me authority to do that? | 18:12 |
| bknudson | no bugs in keystonemiddleware now | 18:12 |
| bknudson | nice | 18:12 |
| topol | yep its empty | 18:12 |
| topol | I checked | 18:12 |
| dolphm | topol: you can grant yourself that authority i believe... | 18:13 |
| topol | k | 18:13 |
| dolphm | anyone have a link to the keystone bug team thing? i can't remember what it's called | 18:13 |
| topol | I'll handle | 18:13 |
| ayoung | #action ayoung to set all keystoneclient middleware bugs to "also affects keystonemiddleware" | 18:13 |
| morganfainberg_L | keystonedrivers? | 18:13 |
| lbragstad | #link https://launchpad.net/~keystone-drivers | 18:13 |
| stevemar | topol, https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Keystone might want to add the keystone-specs too :D | 18:13 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg_L: no, there's a public group | 18:13 |
| morganfainberg_L | dolphm: oooh | 18:13 |
| topol | stevemar ++++ | 18:13 |
| morganfainberg_L | dolphm: uh | 18:13 |
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| dolphm | i have no idea where to find it... | 18:14 |
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| dolphm | ooh | 18:14 |
| ayoung | Current middleware bugs https://bugs.launchpad.net/python-keystoneclient/?field.searchtext=middleware&search=Search&field.status%3Alist=NEW&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITH_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITHOUT_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=CONFIRMED&field.status%3Alist=TRIAGED&field.status%3Alist=INPROGRESS&field.status%3Alist=FIXCOMMITTED&field.assignee=&field.bug_reporter=&field.omit_dupes=on&field.has_patch=& | 18:14 |
| ayoung | field.has_no_package= | 18:14 |
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| dolphm | anyone can join this group https://launchpad.net/~keystone-bugs | 18:14 |
| ayoung | let me try that again | 18:14 |
| ayoung | https://bugs.launchpad.net/python-keystoneclient/?field.searchtext=middleware&search=Search&field.status%3Alist=NEW&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITH_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITHOUT_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=CONFIRMED&field.status%3Alist=TRIAGED&field.status%3Alist=INPROGRESS&field.status%3Alist=FIXCOMMITTED&field.assignee=&field.bug_reporter=&field.omit_dupes=on&field.has_patch=&field.has_no_package= | 18:14 |
| morganfainberg_L | the keystonedrivers group (core) should have access to update the middleware lp page as needed (Same as ksc) | 18:14 |
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| morganfainberg_L | dolphm: please 2x check i don't need to "fix" anything in the lp page for middleware | 18:15 |
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| morganfainberg_L | i think i got it all so you/other cores can fix as needed | 18:15 |
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| dolphm | morganfainberg_L: it all looks right to me | 18:15 |
| morganfainberg_L | i also created 1.0.0 milestone pre-emptively | 18:15 |
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| ayoung | is it going to be a problem that it is keystonemiddleware and not python-keystonemiddleware? | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg_L | ayoung: no | 18:16 |
| ayoung | at least, that is what launchpad calls it | 18:16 |
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| dolphm | morganfainberg_L: you actually made a 1.0.0 series... which should be a 1.x.x series | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg_L | dolphm: ah lets fix that then | 18:16 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg_L, than can we renamte python-keystoneclient to keystoneclient? | 18:16 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg_L: done | 18:16 |
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| ayoung | Not asking to | 18:16 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg_L: you can then create a 1.0.0 milestone within that series | 18:16 |
| ayoung | asking if it would be possible, or | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg_L | dolphm: hm, looks like i can't remove a series? | 18:16 |
| morganfainberg_L | oh you fixed:P | 18:17 |
| ayoung | if something requires the python- prefix? | 18:17 |
| morganfainberg_L | haha | 18:17 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg_L: maybe because i just renamed it | 18:17 |
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| ayoung | I though it was a package thing | 18:17 |
| morganfainberg_L | ayoung: nah, otherwise keystone would need it as well | 18:17 |
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| ayoung | morganfainberg_L, I guess we'll find out | 18:17 |
| * gyee planning on checking in java middleware in that repo as it longer prefix with python- | 18:17 | |
| bknudson | ayoung: someone might write a .NET client and call it .NET-keystoneclient | 18:18 |
| topol | keystone client will eventually be depracted via openstack client correct? | 18:18 |
| bknudson | unix folks would never see it | 18:18 |
| morganfainberg_L | topol: the CLI | 18:18 |
| morganfainberg_L | topol: not the library part | 18:18 |
| gyee | topol, that's the rumor | 18:18 |
| dolphm | i know someone has implemented c++ middleware for keystone | 18:18 |
| bknudson | well, maybe the openstacksdk will make it useless | 18:18 |
| ayoung | 2 bugs now | 18:18 |
| topol | but the library is now going into middleware or am I confused as usal/ | 18:19 |
| morganfainberg_L | in theory, we could have non-python middleware in that repo eventually. | 18:19 |
| dolphm | and rackspace has a java version http://openrepose.org/ | 18:19 |
| bknudson | then we also have the cms code in python-keystoneclient | 18:19 |
| dolphm | bknudson: i think we need a python-keystonelib package for cms... | 18:19 |
| ayoung | we are not targetting python 2.6 for middleware, correct? | 18:19 |
| morganfainberg_L | ayoung: middleware is the same as ksc | 18:20 |
| morganfainberg_L | ayoung: we haven't dropped 2.6, therefore we can't drop it here | 18:20 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg_L, OK | 18:20 |
| dolphm | there was a summit session on 2.6 - does anyone know the outcome? | 18:20 |
| morganfainberg_L | dolphm: suse was the one up in the air still | 18:20 |
| dstanek | dolphm: on dropping 2.6? i heard that we can't because of a linux distro | 18:21 |
| morganfainberg_L | dolphm: everyone else was ok with dropping 2.6, long term 2.6 support will last until we EOL the last of the releases that had 2.6 support | 18:21 |
| dolphm | i don't see a summit etherpad on the topic | 18:21 |
| ayoung | I think that RH has pulled the requirement | 18:21 |
| ayoung | we have "collections" now which lets us run python >2.6 for openstack | 18:21 |
| dolphm | so where is suse at on support? | 18:21 |
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| morganfainberg_L | dolphm: my guess is K will be where we drop 2.6 | 18:21 |
| dstanek | dolphm: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/juno-cross-project-future-of-python | 18:22 |
| dolphm | dropping 2.6 support would be a huge advantage for the gate | 18:22 |
| morganfainberg_L | dolphm: gate will still need to support 2.6 for EOL purposes | 18:22 |
| dolphm | dstanek: thanks! | 18:22 |
| dstanek | yes, they said that they'll have a very long time before they get rid of the gate support | 18:22 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg_L: only on stable/ though, right? | 18:22 |
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| morganfainberg_L | right | 18:23 |
| morganfainberg_L | middleware likely will need to remain 2.6 compat until we drop the last 2.6 capable release to EOL | 18:23 |
| morganfainberg_L | (likely Juno will still be 2.6 compat) | 18:23 |
| dolphm | well, then nothing to get excited about for now | 18:23 |
| dolphm | #topic open discussion | 18:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:23 | |
| ayoung | morganfainberg_L, but that would be the old packages | 18:24 |
| ayoung | not keystonemiddleware | 18:24 |
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| ayoung | just python-keystoneclient | 18:24 |
| morganfainberg_L | ayoung: if juno is 2.6 compatible, middlware will need to keep it since we'll be adopting the new packaging this cycle | 18:24 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg_L, we are going to need to keep the existing packageset for older releases | 18:24 |
| morganfainberg_L | ayoung: yep. clients will be in the same boat | 18:25 |
| ayoung | OK, so we'll get 2.6 as a req that way | 18:25 |
| dstanek | dolphm: publish your secret reviewday support when you have a chance - i'd love to start trying it out | 18:25 |
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| dolphm | dstanek: lol ++ | 18:25 |
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| bknudson | any specs we think are ready to go in? | 18:26 |
| bknudson | if we don't get any specs in then this is going to be a pretty small release | 18:26 |
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| stevemar | i'd like to appeal to folks to review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/100023/ -> 'federating multiple keystone', it's getting kind of ugly and complicated | 18:26 |
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| morganfainberg_L | dolphm: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/dev_keystonemiddleware_anouncement | 18:27 |
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| stevemar | morganfainberg, your etherpad is rather empty | 18:27 |
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| morganfainberg_L | stevemar: shush | 18:27 |
| kwss | stevemar, I'd like to ask a question about that | 18:27 |
| morganfainberg_L | :P | 18:27 |
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| stevemar | kwss ! go ahead | 18:27 |
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| kwss | Will keystone to keystone federation use the same mapping / attribute trust mechanisms as saml2 etc.? | 18:28 |
| dstanek | stevemar: yes, i want to go over that again today - started looking yesterday after jsavak pushed | 18:28 |
| bknudson | good question | 18:28 |
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| morganfainberg_L | kwss: very good question | 18:28 |
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| gyee | I don't see why not | 18:29 |
| dolphm | stevemar: ugly and complicated sounds like you have work to do before appealing to reviewers :P | 18:29 |
| dstanek | kwss: i think it should | 18:29 |
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| kwss | me too | 18:29 |
| dstanek | i don't see the difference between k2k and federation | 18:29 |
| gyee | dstanek, exactly | 18:29 |
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| stevemar | dolphm, actually, i wanted you to weigh in on it, its growing too big, there are too many use cases being proposed | 18:29 |
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| dolphm | stevemar: that's the danger with federation it seems - need to narrow the use case that we pursue to ONE, and ensure that we're making room to support the rest later | 18:30 |
| dolphm | ayoung: wow, thanks for moving bugs over | 18:32 |
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| kwss | I think that all protocols should use the same common mechanisms | 18:33 |
| bknudson | kwss & others: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/100279/ -- this spec looks like a good to me! | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg_L | ayoung: i think session tokens are important if we can shore that spec up. | 18:33 |
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| ayoung | morganfainberg_L, wilco | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg_L | bknudson: that one looks close. | 18:33 |
| dstanek | stevemar: all of the use cases i have seen are very similar | 18:33 |
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| morganfainberg_L | bknudson: at the very least like a decent idea with a lot of thought put into it | 18:33 |
| stevemar | kwss, so both keystone instances should be running something like mod_shib to talk to each other? | 18:33 |
| bknudson | morganfainberg_L: I think it exposes that we've got a security issue in idps | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg_L | bknudson: we do. | 18:33 |
| bknudson | morganfainberg_L: more like an issue of trusting too much | 18:33 |
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| morganfainberg_L | bknudson: ++ | 18:33 |
| stevemar | bknudson, only when using regex ? | 18:33 |
| bknudson | stevemar: y, the regex | 18:33 |
| morganfainberg_L | bknudson: if we can narrow that down to be more restrictive it would def. be good | 18:33 |
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| kwss | stevemar, the actual communication between the two servers is a separate issue, I meant the same mechanisms are handling mapping / authorization | 18:33 |
| ayoung | dolphm, yeah...pretty easy once I got rolling | 18:33 |
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| ayoung | some of those will end up falling squarely on one side or the other | 18:34 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: ++ i'm copying statuses over on the ones you're marking as affecting keystonemiddleware | 18:34 |
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| stevemar | kwss, if we can re-use them, then sure | 18:34 |
| ayoung | dolphm, it does mean that all reafactorings from auth_token middleware to keystoneclient will start with adding code to the client, and then a second review to remove from the middleware | 18:34 |
| ayoung | dolphm, ++ | 18:34 |
| bknudson | ayoung: I think there's no more changes to keystoneclient middleware except for security fixes | 18:35 |
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| morganfainberg_L | bknudson: ++ | 18:35 |
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| dolphm | bknudson: we can't just do an import from keystonemiddleware ? | 18:36 |
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| stevemar | kwss, you mean the mapping engine, and leveraging groups and roles? | 18:36 |
| ayoung | bknudson, right. I'm talking about the keystonemiddleware version. Now that the middleware is split from the client, and since we still have more refactoring to do, we will have to split reviews over both repos | 18:36 |
| bknudson | dolphm: no, circular dependency! | 18:36 |
| morganfainberg_L | ayoung: yes. | 18:36 |
| kwss | stevemar, what I'd like to see is a flow which is separated into protocol dependent i.e keystone to keystone communication and protocol independent (mapping etc.) operations | 18:36 |
| morganfainberg_L | ayoung: and changes to client need a release before they can really be consumed by the middleware | 18:37 |
| stevemar | kwss, i'd love to see that too! but I can't seem to get passed the darn use cases right now | 18:37 |
| topol | too many use cases :-( | 18:37 |
| dolphm | bknudson: that's why i'd like to have keystonelib | 18:37 |
| kwss | stevemar, yea and hopefully trusted attribute filter too | 18:37 |
| stevemar | kwss, topol too many voices (in my head and in the review) | 18:37 |
| morganfainberg_L | dolphm: i'd be happy to do the same work to split the stuff out if we can identify what we want split | 18:38 |
| topol | stevemar +++ what do you recommend | 18:38 |
| morganfainberg_L | dolphm: it's not hard (just timeconsuming) | 18:38 |
| kwss | stevemar, what can I do to help? | 18:38 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg_L: off the top of my head, i'm only aware of keystoneclient.common.cms | 18:38 |
| morganfainberg_L | dolphm: session? | 18:38 |
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| stevemar | kwss, in line comments in the review, and if you have time, can we chat after? | 18:39 |
| dstanek | stevemar: i'm sorta interested in the higher level usecase - be able to federate keystones just like anything else | 18:39 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg_L: hmmmmmmm | 18:39 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg_L, ooh. that is going to be painful. middleware will only test against a released version of the client | 18:39 |
| morganfainberg_L | ayoung: yep | 18:39 |
| kwss | stevemar, sure to both, I'll point David at the review too | 18:39 |
| dstanek | stevemar: we seem to be making this too complicated | 18:39 |
| morganfainberg_L | ayoung: though i can work aroudn that in devstack with a little magic | 18:39 |
| morganfainberg_L | ayoung: i'll be putting those reviews up today. | 18:40 |
| stevemar | dstanek, that was my comment about ugly and complex | 18:40 |
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| stevemar | though craig has a good point about the terminology, we're not being consistent right now | 18:40 |
| morganfainberg_L | dolphm: if sesson and cms were not in ksc (and then auth plugins?) then we could avoid a lot of circular deps | 18:41 |
| topol | could we cut federation down to 2 primary use cases? | 18:41 |
| dstanek | stevemar: what is the timeline to get this approved? it seems like a good discusson for the hackathon | 18:41 |
| topol | and stay focused? | 18:41 |
| morganfainberg_L | dolphm: though i'd really want to talk to jamielennox before we try to split that stuff out | 18:41 |
| dolphm | topol: that would be nice :) | 18:41 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg_L: ++ | 18:41 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg_L: if the use case for cms is agreeable, i can create a spec for just that, and we can go case by case? | 18:42 |
| morganfainberg_L | dolphm: but it would likely make other clients consuming session and auth plugins waaaay easier | 18:42 |
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| stevemar | topol, i think that is a good idea | 18:42 |
| bknudson | my opinion was that we should remove the keystonemiddleware dependency from keystoneclient and do the imports | 18:42 |
| bknudson | it's essentially optional | 18:42 |
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| stevemar | i'm a fan of the bursting one | 18:42 |
| dolphm | bknudson: ? long term or immediately? | 18:42 |
| stevemar | dstanek, i was really hoping to have this approved or near approved for the hackathon | 18:42 |
| dstanek | topol: agreed, but i think all of the uses cases should be captured and then we can generalize that in the spec say exactly which ones will be focused on | 18:42 |
| morganfainberg_L | bknudson: so if middleware is available import? | 18:43 |
| stevemar | dstanek, ++ | 18:43 |
| bknudson | dolphm: I think we'd need to give it some small amount of time | 18:43 |
| topol | we always have another release, another hackathon in SAT, unless dolphm runs out of good restaurants to take us too | 18:43 |
| dolphm | bknudson: sure | 18:43 |
| morganfainberg_L | bknudson: and remove the middleware in ksc completely? | 18:43 |
| bknudson | morganfainberg_L: no need to check if it's available... paste isn't going to start with it. | 18:43 |
| dstanek | topol: we need to start having them at a beach | 18:43 |
| morganfainberg_L | bknudson: ok i'm confused. | 18:43 |
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| morganfainberg_L | bknudson: explain it like i'm 5 :P (ugh, i feel fogged today) | 18:44 |
| topol | dstanek, shame. we come to SAT to get things done, not see you in your speedo :-) | 18:44 |
| bknudson | morganfainberg_L: no, ksc still does the imports | 18:44 |
| stevemar | topol, nice visual | 18:44 |
| bknudson | morganfainberg_L: the middleware is only used if you put it in your paste pipeline | 18:44 |
| morganfainberg_L | right | 18:44 |
| bknudson | it's not used if you're just making use of the client | 18:44 |
| morganfainberg_L | so keystoneclient.middleware imports keystonemiddleware? | 18:44 |
| bknudson | so regular apps aren't going to fail if they don't have the middleware around | 18:44 |
| morganfainberg_L | but there isn't a dep to install keystonemiddleware explicitly | 18:45 |
| morganfainberg_L | ? | 18:45 |
| dolphm | dstanek: hawaii? | 18:45 |
| bknudson | morganfainberg_L: right. no middleware in ksc requirements | 18:45 |
| ayoung | I think that might be going too far | 18:45 |
| topol | I can get myself approved for hawaii but probably not everyone else :-( | 18:45 |
| ayoung | we need to package up keystonemiddleware anyway | 18:46 |
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| dolphm | it's the easiest way to include both the US and australia | 18:46 |
| dstanek | dolphm: sounds great! | 18:46 |
| dolphm | i mean, it's only logical | 18:46 |
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| ayoung | and doing that implies a bunch of changes beyond the paste change | 18:46 |
| lbragstad | I +1 that logic | 18:46 |
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| morganfainberg_L | bknudson: that would break some EOL releases with new keystoneclient releases though | 18:46 |
| morganfainberg_L | bknudson: that was my only real concern. and grizzly is widely used | 18:46 |
| * topol face palm trying to get hawaii approvals... | 18:46 | |
| ayoung | yeah | 18:46 |
| stevemar | i see how it is, henrynash and I aren't even included | 18:46 |
| ayoung | too much to break | 18:46 |
| dstanek | topol: don't worry i'll have my speedo in SAT - i'll wear it for casual Friday | 18:46 |
| morganfainberg_L | bknudson: it's why the spec opted for sec-maintenance for the middleware in ksc | 18:47 |
| bknudson | morganfainberg_L: y, it wouldn't affect us since we don't package that way | 18:47 |
| topol | dstanek, I'll have to skip lunch to be safe then :-) | 18:47 |
| morganfainberg_L | but people do use newer clients with older services | 18:47 |
| * dolphm hackathon update: for everyon's own safety, do not show up on friday | 18:47 | |
| morganfainberg_L | dolphm: ? | 18:47 |
| bknudson | fri the week before? | 18:48 |
| topol | joke | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg_L | oh oh | 18:48 |
| bknudson | is there a gun show? | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg_L | damn it | 18:48 |
| dstanek | lol | 18:48 |
| ayoung | Ok, any thoughts on this: is there anyway to to endpoint binding of tokens without endpoints knowing their own ids? | 18:48 |
| lbragstad | lol | 18:48 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg_L: dstanek's gun show featuring speedos | 18:48 |
| * morganfainberg_L facepalms | 18:48 | |
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| morganfainberg_L | i uh... | 18:48 |
| bknudson | I assume we're allowed to open carry there? | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg_L | no | 18:48 |
| lbragstad | suns out guns out? | 18:48 |
| dolphm | bknudson: conceal only in texas | 18:48 |
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| gyee | ayoung, sure, each endpoint have their own unique cert/private key | 18:49 |
| ayoung | gyee, nope | 18:49 |
| gyee | just encrypt the toke for that endpoint only | 18:49 |
| ayoung | that doesn't work for multi | 18:49 |
| ayoung | so token is for 3 endpoints only | 18:49 |
| ayoung | that only works for one specific endpoint | 18:49 |
| gyee | you issue the token for that endpoint only | 18:49 |
| gyee | so encrypting it with the endpoint's public key | 18:50 |
| ayoung | gyee, that is a lot of infrastrucutre | 18:50 |
| gyee | ayoung, but arn't we pushing PKI already? | 18:50 |
| ayoung | and it seems like a misuse of crypto. THere is nothing wrong with othser services seeing the token contents | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg_L | bknudson: largely speaking, you can use 0.9.0 keystoneclient (and middleware) as far back as you want as long as you configure it correctly | 18:51 |
| gyee | why, if that token is only good for that particular endpoint | 18:51 |
| topol | lbragstad... its in the constitution son | 18:51 |
| ayoung | gyee, and, really, that is just replace "endpoint id" with "endpoint keypair" | 18:51 |
| dolphm | it also lets endpoints share keys, which seems totally reasonable | 18:52 |
| bknudson | morganfainberg_L: y, and you need to start installing all the new deps for 0.9.0... good luck! | 18:52 |
| gyee | dolphm, sure, PKI is made for that stuff | 18:52 |
| ayoung | dolphm, shared keys does not seem reasonable to me | 18:52 |
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| ayoung | you'd have to share a private key | 18:52 |
| morganfainberg_L | bknudson: hm. how far have the deps changed (conflicted) since say... grizzly release (assuming no one uses folsom) | 18:52 |
| ayoung | which is generally frowned upon | 18:52 |
| gyee | multiple instances of an endpoint? | 18:52 |
| dolphm | ayoung: if i deploy two services on the same node, i'm might not care that they share private keys, etc | 18:53 |
| dolphm | ayoung: or like glance api and glance registry, for example | 18:53 |
| gyee | sure multiple instances of an endpoint have to share the same keys | 18:53 |
| ayoung | my thought, though, is that if we need to give each endpoint an identity of some sort, then maybe we use that identity for fetching policy after all | 18:53 |
| ayoung | I really don't want to build that infrastructure unless it is well justified | 18:53 |
| ayoung | I don't think it is yet | 18:54 |
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| gyee | endpoints should have an identity anyway | 18:54 |
| ayoung | gyee, why not the service users | 18:54 |
| ayoung | that seems to make more sense | 18:54 |
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| ayoung | but we can't bind a token to a service user | 18:54 |
| gyee | they can use the service identity sure | 18:54 |
| ayoung | actually, we totally could | 18:54 |
| gyee | but an identity can have multiple keys | 18:54 |
| bknudson | morganfainberg_L: our issue is that we need to go through legal to get new packages approved | 18:54 |
| ayoung | token { "service_user":"keystone"} means only the keystone service user should treat the token as valid | 18:55 |
| gyee | endpoint-scope and service-scope, killing two birds with one stone | 18:55 |
| dolphm | why can't all users just have keys? | 18:55 |
| ayoung | but we'd need that information when we issued the token. And there is no link in keystone between the service users and the endpoiints yet | 18:55 |
| gyee | apologize to the animal lovers | 18:55 |
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| ayoung | we don't need PKI for this | 18:56 |
| dolphm | and then all everything barbican everywhere | 18:56 |
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| ayoung | we just need to identify who can use the token | 18:56 |
| morganfainberg_L | bknudson: aren't you going to have to do that anyway even with what you're proposing? | 18:56 |
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| gyee | dude, we are using PKI tokens already! | 18:56 |
| gyee | make it count | 18:56 |
| bknudson | morganfainberg_L: well, we handle new releases, but old releases use old client. we're not affected | 18:56 |
| ayoung | gyee, we have one service that requires tokens, not everywhere | 18:56 |
| ayoung | lets not build things just to build them | 18:57 |
| gyee | ayoung, I mean the framework is already there | 18:57 |
| ayoung | people get lynched that way | 18:57 |
| gyee | just make use of it | 18:57 |
| ayoung | no, it really is not | 18:57 |
| ayoung | I mean, I like PKI as an option | 18:57 |
| ayoung | just not a hard requirement, for the endpoint to validate to keystone | 18:57 |
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| gyee | I think PKI is a great option for this stuff | 18:57 |
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| ayoung | gyee, option, yes | 18:57 |
| ayoung | requirement, not | 18:57 |
| morganfainberg_L | still don't see how that really affects things here. i'm thinking from the standpoint of a couple companies i know that use latest *client* + grizzly services and breaking their deployment with the next ksc relese would be ugly | 18:57 |
| ayoung | and, it is beside the point | 18:58 |
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| ayoung | the issue is not PKI or no PKI | 18:58 |
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| gyee | I though you ask how to make the stuff work | 18:58 |
| bknudson | morganfainberg_L: they can't install keystonemiddleware? | 18:58 |
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| ayoung | the issue is "do we use the endpoint id for policy fetch" and "do we use the endpoint id for token binding" | 18:58 |
| ayoung | if not, then what do we do | 18:58 |
| morganfainberg_L | they can, but i am not seeing a compelling argument to break them? | 18:58 |
| * dolphm 1 min | 18:59 | |
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| ayoung | and I think the policy fetch is leaning toward "use the service users context" | 18:59 |
| morganfainberg_L | bknudson: i might be missing the point of ripping it out in a hurry | 18:59 |
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| morganfainberg_L | thats all | 18:59 |
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| morganfainberg_L | talk morein -keystoen after meeting | 18:59 |
| gyee | ayoung, service account should be fine, services owns the endpoints anyway | 18:59 |
| bknudson | morganfainberg_L: we can take as long as we think is prudent | 19:00 |
| dolphm | #endmeeting | 19:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 24 19:00:24 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-06-24-18.02.html | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-06-24-18.02.txt | 19:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2014/keystone.2014-06-24-18.02.log.html | 19:00 |
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| anteaya | o/ | 19:00 |
| jeblair | infra folks around? | 19:00 |
| SergeyLukjanov | o/ | 19:00 |
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| fungi | heyo | 19:01 |
| jeblair | maybe there will not be a quorum and i can eat lunch without getting crumbs in my keyboard... | 19:01 |
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| krotscheck | Eh? wha? | 19:01 |
| clarkb | o/ | 19:01 |
| krtaylor | o/ | 19:01 |
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| *** morganfainberg_L has joined #openstack-meeting | 19:02 | |
| ianw | o/ | 19:02 |
| jeblair | oh well, here we go then ;) | 19:02 |
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| nibalizer | o/ | 19:02 |
| jeblair | #startmeeting infra | 19:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 24 19:02:34 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:02 |
| jeblair | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting | 19:02 |
| jeblair | agenda ^ (full) | 19:02 |
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| jeblair | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-06-17-19.01.html | 19:02 |
| jeblair | last meeting ^ | 19:03 |
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| jeblair | #topic Actions from last meeting | 19:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:03 | |
| ttx | o/ | 19:03 |
| jeblair | jeblair and clarkb if feeling better to upgrade jenkins timeout plugin starting june 18 | 19:03 |
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| clarkb | I completed that yesterday | 19:03 |
| jeblair | and then some | 19:03 |
| jesusaurus | o/ | 19:03 |
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| bcrochet | o/ | 19:03 |
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| jeblair | zaro: so your change that depends on that should be able to proceed | 19:04 |
| clarkb | zaro: can you make a point of bugging me to merge the puppet chagnes asssociated iwth that? | 19:04 |
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| jeblair | and clarkb is also proceeding with the trusty upgrade | 19:04 |
| clarkb | we need to merge the changes that update the plugin versiosn in puppet and the job updates to use the new version of the plugin | 19:04 |
| jeblair | on a related note, there are pending changes to remove the last of envinject usage, then we can yank that plugin as well | 19:04 |
| jeblair | #topic F20 jobs (ianw 24/6) | 19:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "F20 jobs (ianw 24/6) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:05 | |
| jeblair | ianw: you have the floor! | 19:05 |
| ianw | hi, not sure if anyone noticed, but redhatci was very unstable | 19:05 |
| ianw | turns out it was all due to a RHOS issue https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1112068 | 19:05 |
| uvirtbot | ianw: Error: Could not parse XML returned by bugzilla.redhat.com: HTTP Error 404: Not Found | 19:05 |
| ianw | redhatci is also a good dog-fooding thing for us | 19:06 |
| ianw | but hopefully i can turn that back on soon | 19:06 |
| ianw | to the f20 jobs, the blocker is the nodepool allocation issue | 19:06 |
| ianw | i've gotten https://review.openstack.org/#/c/101110/ (Track last allocations to ensure forward-progress) into shape for review | 19:07 |
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| clarkb | cool /me adds that to review list | 19:07 |
| ianw | probably jeblair is the main person, but if there are any big issues with the approach, i'd like to know | 19:07 |
| SergeyLukjanov | me too | 19:07 |
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| jeblair | interestingly enough, we basically haven't had any nodepool contention for the past week, until this morning | 19:08 |
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| jeblair | now there are a lot of nodes in the delete state; we should check on that | 19:09 |
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| jeblair | ianw: thanks for working on that; i think we'll probably just follow up in the review at this point | 19:09 |
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| jeblair | unless there are any other aspects we should discuss now | 19:09 |
| jeblair | ? | 19:10 |
| ianw | ok, sounds good. that's it for me | 19:10 |
| jeblair | #topic Request for comments on the horizon split plan (rdopiera) | 19:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Request for comments on the horizon split plan (rdopiera) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:10 | |
| jeblair | is this old? | 19:10 |
| anteaya | I think so? | 19:10 |
| anteaya | I could never find out for sure | 19:10 |
| anteaya | and I don't know who has the next itme | 19:10 |
| jeblair | yes, this one is old | 19:11 |
| jeblair | #topic Designate repository renames (stackforge -> openstack) | 19:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Designate repository renames (stackforge -> openstack) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:11 | |
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| Kiall | Heya :) | 19:11 |
| jeblair | designate is incubated now | 19:11 |
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| jeblair | so we should move it to openstack/ | 19:12 |
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| fungi | i'm pretty well open to work on a project rename batch any time between now and darmstadt | 19:12 |
| Kiall | So - I had a Q or 2 related to renaming the projects.. First was scheduling the rename, and the second was what can we expect to explode (e.g. I've seen some if org == 'openstack':'s in the code..) | 19:12 |
| Kiall | The second is probably more of a non-meeting time Q, but worth a quick mention :) | 19:13 |
| jeblair | Kiall: when we do that, all the changes will move over, but devs will need to update their git remotes -- that's the main point of disruption | 19:13 |
| jeblair | Kiall: we usually do renames on friday afternoons or weekends -- any time/date that's particularly good or bad for you? | 19:13 |
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| jeblair | Kiall: (it's a 15 minute downtime for all of gerrit, so that's the primary scheduling motivator) | 19:14 |
| Kiall | Ideally, I'd like to be around, so the US morning on a weekend seems reasonable | 19:14 |
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| Kiall | (US morning so it's not 3am or something for me!) | 19:14 |
| zaro | o/ | 19:15 |
| Kiall | Re date, the sooner the better IMO. | 19:15 |
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| fungi | if it needs to be before the north-american west-coasters are awake, i'm happy to take point on it (well, i'm happy to regardless) | 19:16 |
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| Kiall | fungi: west coast before midday works for me, I live in Ireland, but work with the Seattle office.. So I'm used to that ;) | 19:16 |
| clarkb | this next weekend is hard for me | 19:16 |
| clarkb | I am doing thing | 19:16 |
| jeblair | i can do saturday at 1600 utc... fungi if you want to volunteer for ealier i'm not going to object ;) | 19:17 |
| jeblair | actually, if clarkb isn't around anyway, i can go ahead and commit to 1500 | 19:17 |
| fungi | i'm fine with 1600utc if it means more of us around to fix whatever i accidentally break ;) | 19:17 |
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| fungi | or 1500 | 19:17 |
| Kiall | That sounds good to me | 19:17 |
| Kiall | (either 15 or 1600 UTC) | 19:17 |
| clarkb | I can do weekend after easy enough though | 19:17 |
| clarkb | will nurse post 4th hangover | 19:18 |
| clarkb | and be lazy >_> | 19:18 |
| * SergeyLukjanov can help with renaming patches and side effects q. | 19:18 | |
| fungi | heh | 19:18 |
| jeblair | yeah, i don't really want to do this wknd after | 19:18 |
| jeblair | SergeyLukjanov: cool | 19:18 |
| jeblair | #agreed rename designate (and bash8) saturday 1500 UTC | 19:18 |
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| jeblair | i'll send an announcement | 19:18 |
| Kiall | Great - Thanks guys :) | 19:18 |
| clarkb | wfm | 19:18 |
| jeblair | Kiall: np, thank you! | 19:18 |
| fungi | looked like we also had murano projects to move to the attic? | 19:18 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ok | 19:18 |
| SergeyLukjanov | fungi, yup | 19:19 |
| fungi | though i guess we could wait until we get to those on the agenda | 19:19 |
| SergeyLukjanov | I think ruhe could talk about it | 19:19 |
| ruhe | o/ | 19:19 |
| jeblair | #topic Deprecate deprecated Murano projects (move to attic or completely remove?) [ruhe] | 19:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Deprecate deprecated Murano projects (move to attic or completely remove?) [ruhe] (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:19 | |
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| jeblair | since we're here... | 19:19 |
| SergeyLukjanov | heh, agenda wiki page is still loading for me :( | 19:19 |
| anteaya | yup | 19:19 |
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| ruhe | jeblair: thanks | 19:19 |
| ruhe | several murano repositories were deprecated after we merged functionality into stackforge/murano. they have nothing but a readme file with a deprecation notice. | 19:19 |
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| fungi | and the answer is... move to attic since we don't delete projects ;) | 19:20 |
| ruhe | i see two options: 1) remove them completely (and preserve history somewhere in github), 2) move them to attic, but afaik current attic is only for projects from openstack group (not for stackforge projects) | 19:20 |
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| ruhe | fungi: is attic for all projects, or just those from openstack group? | 19:20 |
| fungi | oh, i see. this comes back to the need for a stackforge-attic | 19:20 |
| SergeyLukjanov | we could make a stackforge-attic too IMO | 19:20 |
| jeblair | or 3) just set them to read-only and leave in stackforge | 19:20 |
| SergeyLukjanov | we have some dead projects in stackforge | 19:21 |
| ruhe | jeblair: sometimes they confuse newcomers, that's why we wanted to get rid of them | 19:21 |
| jeblair | the main reason to have an openstack attic is so that when people look at the "openstack" org in github, they only see real live openstack projects... | 19:21 |
| fungi | that also seems like a fine option (i was in favor of doing that for openstack deprecated projects too, fwiw) | 19:21 |
| SergeyLukjanov | jeblair, it's an option too, but it could be a bit frustrating for newcomers | 19:21 |
| jeblair | i'm not sure the same thing is true for stackforge? it seems like ruhe and SergeyLukjanov think so :) | 19:21 |
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| fungi | well, if the project had a final commit which removed all files except for a readme with a deprecation "we have moved" notice, i don't think that should be too frustrating for newcomers | 19:22 |
| jeblair | anyone else with opinions? | 19:22 |
| anteaya | I have no opinion, the only stackforge project I have interacted with is gertty | 19:22 |
| SergeyLukjanov | jeblair, I see stackforge like our one more our org | 19:22 |
| SergeyLukjanov | and IMO it's good to keep it clean | 19:22 |
| SergeyLukjanov | jeblair, but I'm agreed that it's not so important as keeping clean github.com/openstack | 19:23 |
| anteaya | so I don't know how stackforge contributors think | 19:23 |
| ruhe | there is also MRaaS, which seems to be dead. and might confuse people about MRaaS vs Sahara | 19:23 |
| jeblair | okay, i won't try to argue that we keep it "dirty", so i guess we can move them to the attic | 19:24 |
| jeblair | the stackforge-attic | 19:24 |
| jeblair | which i just made on github | 19:24 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | :) | 19:24 |
| jeblair | ruhe: are those projects ready to move now? | 19:25 |
| ruhe | jeblair: yes | 19:25 |
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| jeblair | okay, so we can move them on saturday then with the other renames | 19:25 |
| fungi | sounds good | 19:25 |
| SergeyLukjanov | jeblair, would we like to collect list of completely dead projects on stackforge? | 19:25 |
| SergeyLukjanov | like mraas | 19:25 |
| clarkb | SergeyLukjanov: that is probably not a bad idea | 19:25 |
| fungi | SergeyLukjanov: that might be hard to identify without input from their core review teams | 19:26 |
| clarkb | if for no other reason to get an idea of how prevalent it is | 19:26 |
| fungi | but is possibly worth pursuing | 19:26 |
| Kiall | fungi: maybe 6 months no commits or something? | 19:26 |
| Kiall | (or pick a number...) | 19:26 |
| ruhe | jeblair: cool. i can create needed patches (in cases if they're needed) using SergeyLukjanov's help, since i have him in the same room :) | 19:26 |
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| fungi | Kiall: i don't want to rule out the possibility that a project can be "finished" and not have any reported bugs/fixes or new features needed | 19:26 |
| jeblair | Kiall: we'll exclude any projects that don't get commits from 6 months and have Donald Knuth as a core reviewer. ;) | 19:26 |
| fungi | hah | 19:27 |
| SergeyLukjanov | :) | 19:27 |
| Kiall | lol | 19:27 |
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| Kiall | Well, 6 months might be a list, rather than shortlist :) | 19:27 |
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| jeblair | #topic What server for devstack.org documentation? (anteaya) | 19:27 |
| fungi | 6 months of inactivity might make for a good list of core review teams to follow up with at least | 19:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "What server for devstack.org documentation? (anteaya) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:27 | |
| anteaya | hi | 19:27 |
| jeblair | fungi: ++ | 19:28 |
| anteaya | dtroyer has the docs in devstack now | 19:28 |
| anteaya | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/101668/ | 19:28 |
| jeblair | oh neat | 19:28 |
| anteaya | merged yesterday | 19:28 |
| anteaya | so now we just need a job to publish them somewhere | 19:28 |
| SergeyLukjanov | I'll review the list of stackforge projects to find persons who we'd like to contact about removing repos from stackforge | 19:28 |
| anteaya | unfortunately our meeting is a hard time for dtroyer to make | 19:29 |
| anteaya | so we need something like puppet to run build_docs | 19:29 |
| jeblair | anteaya: has the domain been moved yet? | 19:29 |
| anteaya | and publish | 19:29 |
| anteaya | dtroyer says he wants the server first | 19:29 |
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| anteaya | and I know you want the domain name first | 19:29 |
| jeblair | er | 19:29 |
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| anteaya | and I have seen no action on the domain name | 19:29 |
| jeblair | i think the domain should be _transferred_ first | 19:29 |
| anteaya | so I don't know what to do | 19:29 |
| anteaya | yeah, I know that | 19:29 |
| jeblair | continuing to point to gh-pages | 19:29 |
| anteaya | ahd dean can't come to infra meetings | 19:30 |
| anteaya | so I do't know what to do next | 19:30 |
| jeblair | then we can publish the docs, then point the domain at the new location | 19:30 |
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| anteaya | right | 19:30 |
| anteaya | _I_ know that | 19:30 |
| anteaya | but I can't seem to convince dtroyer | 19:30 |
| anteaya | so what to do next? | 19:30 |
| jeblair | because, honestly, that's the hard part of this -- that's the part that people have said they wanted to do for like a year, but nothings happening | 19:31 |
| anteaya | right | 19:31 |
| anteaya | I have an email out, I have seen no action | 19:31 |
| anteaya | I talked to dtroyer | 19:31 |
| anteaya | he wants the server first | 19:31 |
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| jeblair | it's not his domain name | 19:31 |
| anteaya | he says don't worry about the domain name | 19:31 |
| jeblair | it's jesse andrews | 19:31 |
| anteaya | true, it isn't | 19:31 |
| anteaya | correct | 19:31 |
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| anteaya | jeblair: can you talk to dtroyer? | 19:32 |
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| jeblair | anteaya: sure? | 19:32 |
| anteaya | I have asked him to come to infra meetings, he can't come | 19:32 |
| anteaya | thanks | 19:32 |
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| fungi | is the plan a rackspace cloudsites server for now? if so, i think we may not be able to add one for devstack.org until the domain is hosted on rackspace's nameservers? (unless we pick some other name and set up an alias later) | 19:32 |
| jeblair | fungi: i'm not sure it's even worth making a detailed plan until the domain is transferred, but yeah, we could do cloud sites, or something on static.o.o | 19:33 |
| anteaya | right now we just need a server with apache to server static html files | 19:33 |
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| anteaya | he didn't mention needing cloudsites | 19:33 |
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| fungi | otherwise "server first" is a little irrelevant, since it would be a different "server" | 19:33 |
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| anteaya | mostly he wants a script to run the build_docs job | 19:33 |
| anteaya | which I do think puppet can fire | 19:34 |
| jeblair | i think our options are: transfer ownership of the domain, then move the site. or deprecate the domain and host the docs at docs.o.o/devstack | 19:34 |
| jeblair | anteaya: jenkins will run it | 19:34 |
| annegent_ | o/ | 19:34 |
| anteaya | great | 19:34 |
| fungi | i'm more in favor of the latter anyway (and have devstack.org just serve as a redirect) | 19:34 |
| annegent_ | I'd rather not increase the scope of docs further all the time | 19:34 |
| jeblair | fungi: yeah, that still needs to be foundation owned though | 19:34 |
| fungi | not necessarily docs.o.o/devstack specifically, but somewhere on an existing site | 19:34 |
| clarkb | annegent_: I don't think it is a scope incrase. | 19:34 |
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| clarkb | annegent_: it would just host the docs for that project like we host docs for all other projects | 19:35 |
| reed | i have asked Jesse and Soo multiple times, in real life, too... I will ask more | 19:35 |
| reed | s/more/again | 19:35 |
| jeblair | anteaya: annegent_ sorry, i meant http://docs.openstack.org/developer/devstack | 19:35 |
| jeblair | annegent_: so yeah, not intending to increase scope | 19:35 |
| annegent_ | clarkb: jeblair: I guess I'm ok with /developer/devstack | 19:35 |
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| fungi | annegent_: something similar to the developer reference content we currently publish for the python clients, presumably | 19:35 |
| anteaya | reed: dtroyer said he had asked jesse and jesse had said yes | 19:35 |
| anteaya | reed: I don't get the feeling there needs to be more asking | 19:36 |
| clarkb | fungi: ya | 19:36 |
| anteaya | just the domain transfer needs to happen | 19:36 |
| reed | anteaya, when did dtroyer ask last time? | 19:36 |
| lsell | i can chime in on the domain transfer -- jesse said yes, but we still need credentials and he's gone quiet | 19:36 |
| lsell | it's quick to do, but he's been unresponsive for about a month now | 19:36 |
| anteaya | reed: couple weeks before summit | 19:36 |
| anteaya | reed: permissions are in place afaik | 19:37 |
| reed | exactly, and in order to transfer the domain you need to be quick and responsive at the right time | 19:37 |
| jeblair | lsell: weird :( thanks | 19:37 |
| anteaya | reed: looks like lsell is on it | 19:37 |
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| reed | anteaya, I and her both are | 19:37 |
| anteaya | okay | 19:37 |
| lsell | we just need the auth code, stefano has sent him about five emails | 19:37 |
| anteaya | well keep us informed on your progress | 19:37 |
| lsell | but yes, any help appreciated | 19:37 |
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| anteaya | lsell: ah, I didn't know that | 19:38 |
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| anteaya | hmmmm, anyone live close to him? perhaps he needs another beer? | 19:38 |
| anteaya | anyway that is all from me | 19:38 |
| anteaya | and ttx has two items | 19:38 |
| jeblair | thanks | 19:38 |
| ttx | i do! | 19:38 |
| jeblair | #topic Support for proposed/* pre-release branches instead of milestone-proposed [ttx] | 19:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Support for proposed/* pre-release branches instead of milestone-proposed [ttx] (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:38 | |
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| ttx | so I looked up my old patch for this, and I'm not even sure it's needed | 19:39 |
| ttx | Current plan is to use proposed/juno pre-release | 19:39 |
| ttx | that would generate nova-proposed-juno.tar.gz, which doesn't look any weirder than milestone-proposed.tar.gz | 19:40 |
| ttx | so unless you have process adherence to milestone-proposed.tar.gz, I'm not sure we need to rename tarballs to match old name | 19:40 |
| jeblair | ttx: agreed, the new name should be fine | 19:40 |
| ttx | there will be leftovers tarballs, but we can leave with that | 19:41 |
| ttx | so i'm not sure where to look for other needed changes | 19:41 |
| fungi | and probably the biggest to-do items from infra on this are all-projects and individual acl updates, changes to logic in zuul's layout and devstack-gate/grenade setup... | 19:41 |
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| jeblair | we could probably delete those milestone-proposed tarballs as a special case | 19:41 |
| ttx | I suspect somewhere deep in there is the magic that makes stable/* work together with stable/* when available | 19:41 |
| anteaya | how would the acl files change? anything with milestone would be pre-release? | 19:41 |
| jeblair | since they are potentially confusing (and would have been overwritten if we did not change schemes) | 19:41 |
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| nibalizer | openstack: | 19:42 |
| nibalizer | erp | 19:42 |
| ttx | and we need to teach that to look for proposed/* just in case stable/* doesn't exist | 19:42 |
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| jeblair | ttx: it's actually magical enough that i don't think it needs updating | 19:42 |
| fungi | anteaya: right now we have a lot of acl references to refs/heads/milestone-proposed which would probably need to be switched to refs/heads/proposed/* | 19:42 |
| anteaya | ah | 19:42 |
| anteaya | that makes sense | 19:42 |
| anteaya | then the grand renaming of the gerrit groups | 19:42 |
| ttx | fungi: yep, that's the only change I found so far | 19:42 |
| anteaya | once folks catch on | 19:42 |
| ttx | jeblair: that would truly be magic. I don't believe it. | 19:43 |
| fungi | i'm not so picky that i care about .*-milestone groups being renamed | 19:43 |
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| fungi | but perhaps others disagree | 19:43 |
| anteaya | kk | 19:44 |
| anteaya | good | 19:44 |
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| jeblair | we do still have milestones, after all :) | 19:44 |
| ttx | jeblair: also was wondering how we could test that, do you have a test project with pre-release / release jobs enabled ? | 19:44 |
| ttx | that said, worst case scenario we'll have the same issues as with milestone-proposed | 19:45 |
| jeblair | ttx: no, but we could probably use the sandbox repo; though i'm inclined to say let's just try to have people on-deck to re-run jobs if there are problems the first time we do this | 19:45 |
| ttx | #info needs to switch ACLs from refs/heads/milestone-proposed to refs/heads/proposed/* | 19:45 |
| clarkb | ++ on deck sounds good | 19:46 |
| ttx | OK I'll update the release scripts so that they use proposed/* on pre-release | 19:46 |
| jeblair | ttx: anything else on this topic? | 19:46 |
| ttx | jeblair: nope, looks simpler than I thought | 19:47 |
| fungi | i can probably wrap the milestone-proposed to proposed/* acl changes into my normalization script series just so we catch any stragger open reviews ion a subsequent pass | 19:47 |
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| jeblair | #topic Is merge_tags.sh broken ? [ttx] | 19:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Is merge_tags.sh broken ? [ttx] (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:47 | |
| fungi | s/stragger/straggler/ | 19:47 |
| ttx | jeblair: you'll have to explain to me the magic that will make us degrade to using proposed/* in testing, though | 19:47 |
| ttx | so the second part of my patch was to teach proposed/* to merge_tags.sh | 19:48 |
| ttx | but looking into it I realized that it must fail most of the time | 19:48 |
| ttx | in particular it fails on stable/* tags | 19:48 |
| ttx | but silently (reports SUCCESS) | 19:48 |
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| ttx | it also failed on all 2014.1 tags | 19:49 |
| fungi | ttx: it was fixed prior to https://jenkins.openstack.org/job/swift-merge-release-tags/3/console | 19:49 |
| ttx | with errors around CLA | 19:49 |
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| ttx | fungi: OK, couldn't find reference to fix | 19:49 |
| clarkb | ya the CLA thing should be sorted out | 19:49 |
| clarkb | ttx: it was fixed int he context of translation proposals iirc | 19:49 |
| ttx | ok, so it should work on release | 19:49 |
| * fungi checks for a more recent example as proof | 19:50 | |
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| ttx | Does it make sense to fix it for stable/* ? | 19:50 |
| ttx | It's a release job, not a pre-release job, right | 19:50 |
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| clarkb | yes should be a release job | 19:50 |
| jeblair | confirmed | 19:51 |
| ttx | Ok, so I'll teach it proposed/* | 19:51 |
| fungi | here's a fun silent failure... | 19:51 |
| ttx | does it make sense to merge tags on stable releases ? | 19:51 |
| fungi | #link https://jenkins.openstack.org/job/cinder-merge-release-tags/2/console | 19:51 |
| ttx | fungi: yeah right :) | 19:51 |
| fungi | "error: malformed object name origin/milestone-proposed" | 19:51 |
| ttx | stable releases are tagged on stable/foo | 19:51 |
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| ttx | fungi: it's when milestone-proposed doesn't exist anymore | 19:51 |
| ttx | so I don't think there is anything that should be merged back | 19:52 |
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| ttx | since I'm not 100% sure I got why we were doing merge_tags.sh in the first place, I figured I should ask before I "fix" it there | 19:53 |
| clarkb | ttx: the reason merge tags exists is so that the pbr versions works when you go to the next version | 19:53 |
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| clarkb | since it is git tag based you have ot make sure the tags end up in your history | 19:53 |
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| fungi | in the history of your current branch, specifically | 19:53 |
| ttx | clarkb: so we shouldn't merge tags back to master for stable/foo release tags, right ? | 19:54 |
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| jeblair | ttx: that sounds reasonable to me | 19:54 |
| ttx | good thing it fails, after all. | 19:54 |
| clarkb | ttx: you should for the first stable release but probably not for subsequent ones | 19:54 |
| fungi | presumably not, no. also pbr versioning is different for the projects which have a stable branch model, such that the old tag names are irrelevant anyway, right? | 19:54 |
| ttx | clarkb: so we should merge tags back from proposed/foo to master, but not from stable/foo | 19:55 |
| jeblair | ttx: we may want to follow up with mordred on this | 19:55 |
| clarkb | ttx: that sounds right | 19:55 |
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| fungi | because we configure the package to have metadata about the next version being worked toward, and pbr uses that to determine what to set the current version to | 19:55 |
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| clarkb | but we should get mordred's input | 19:55 |
| ttx | ok, i'll fix merge_tags.sh and make sure mordred reviews it | 19:55 |
| ttx | that's all I had -- thanks for making the time | 19:56 |
| jeblair | ttx: cool, thanks | 19:56 |
| jeblair | #topic Open discussion | 19:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:56 | |
| jeblair | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Qa_Infra_Meetup_2014 | 19:56 |
| jeblair | there's a qa/infra joint meetup/sprinty thing happening in a few weeks | 19:56 |
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| clarkb | I have a couple changes up to ease the pain of the trusty transition for a couple projects | 19:56 |
| fungi | and swift is a hybrid between library serial release model and server stable branching, so it makes use of the pbr tag-based postversioning i assume | 19:56 |
| jeblair | you should come unless you're having a family reunion | 19:56 |
| clarkb | getting quick review on that would be great and make our users happy :) | 19:56 |
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| clarkb | I will be there :) | 19:57 |
| fungi | is most everyone staying at the maritim? | 19:57 |
| fungi | i need to go ahead and book my lodging this week | 19:57 |
| anteaya | clarkb: topic name for patch series? | 19:57 |
| anteaya | I | 19:57 |
| anteaya | m staying in frankfurt | 19:57 |
| clarkb | anteaya: there is no patch series because they are independent. I will post links in -infra | 19:57 |
| anteaya | but I think I am the only one | 19:57 |
| clarkb | I am staying at maritim in darmstadt | 19:57 |
| anteaya | clarkb: cool or an etherpad | 19:57 |
| mrodden | did anyone need anything else from me re: the bash8 rename? | 19:57 |
| mrodden | i saw it will be done on sat. | 19:57 |
| jeblair | anteaya: i suspect mordred will -- starwood and all | 19:57 |
| anteaya | jeblair: he is leaning darmstadt | 19:57 |
| notmyname | fungi: FWIW, it was recently (circa atlanta summit) pointed out that swift's versioning via pbr isn't actually what anyone wants. we'll be updating it to be more like other server projects during juno (still semver, but not using the pbr+tags like client libs) | 19:58 |
| fungi | mrodden: yeah, you'll want to be around if possible to make sure your stuff is working and approve the .gitreview update patch for it | 19:58 |
| anteaya | so I went ahead and booked without hearing from him | 19:58 |
| jeblair | anteaya: now i'm just confused! :) | 19:58 |
| fungi | notmyname: oh, right, i remember being in that session now ;) | 19:58 |
| anteaya | jeblair: yeah, me too | 19:58 |
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| mrodden | fungi: be around on sat.? | 19:59 |
| anteaya | 1500 utc | 19:59 |
| jeblair | oh, i added some potential sprint topics to the wiki page; feel free to add more | 19:59 |
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| clarkb | cool /me checks if zuul is on there :) | 19:59 |
| fungi | mrodden: or just be ready to deal with it on monday when you get around to it, assuming it's a low-volume sort of project | 19:59 |
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| anteaya | I might have to add infra-manual if the first commit doesn't merge before then | 19:59 |
| jeblair | anteaya: nicely done! | 19:59 |
| anteaya | ha ha ha | 20:00 |
| mrodden | fungi: np i can be around on sat. at 1500 UTC i think, just wanted to clarify | 20:00 |
| anteaya | oh I think we are done | 20:00 |
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| jeblair | thanks everyone! | 20:00 |
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| jeblair | #endmeeting | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 24 20:00:43 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-06-24-19.02.html | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-06-24-19.02.txt | 20:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2014/infra.2014-06-24-19.02.log.html | 20:00 |
| ttx | OK... Anyone here for the TC meeting ? | 20:01 |
| devananda | o/ | 20:01 |
| russellb | o/ | 20:01 |
| jeblair | o/ | 20:01 |
| markwash | o/ | 20:01 |
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| markmc | hey | 20:01 |
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| sdague | o/ | 20:01 |
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| mikal | Ahoy | 20:01 |
| ttx | annegentle, mordred, markmcclain, jaypipes, dhellmann : around ? | 20:01 |
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| annegent_ | here | 20:01 |
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| dhellmann | o/ | 20:01 |
| ttx | vishy is proxied by markwash | 20:01 |
| ttx | OK, looks like we can have a meeting | 20:01 |
| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 24 20:02:01 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:02 |
| jeblair | annegent_: ping | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:02 |
| ttx | Agenda for today: | 20:02 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee | 20:02 |
| ttx | markwash: you're available now ? | 20:02 |
| markwash | I'm here! | 20:02 |
| markwash | :-) | 20:02 |
| ttx | #topic Glance gap coverage plan | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Glance gap coverage plan (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:02 | |
| annegent_ | jeblair: pong | 20:02 |
| ttx | Two weeks ago a single gap was raised against Glance in the integrated requirements gap analysis: | 20:02 |
| zehicle_at_dell | o/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | - Lack of testing a binary image in integration tests | 20:02 |
| ttx | markwash posted the following plan to address it: | 20:03 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee/Glance_Gap_Coverage | 20:03 |
| ttx | Pretty simple, looks good to me | 20:03 |
| markwash | yeah, we targeted j-2 and feel good about it | 20:03 |
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| markwash | tried to get it done this past week but couldn't quite find the immediate manpower | 20:03 |
| ttx | Unless someone has an issue with it, I'll add it to the TC wikipage for tracking | 20:03 |
| dhellmann | seems good to me | 20:04 |
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| ttx | and we'll haunt markwash back about this targeting in a few weeks time | 20:04 |
| ttx | when we review gap coverage progress post-j2 | 20:04 |
| sdague | wfm | 20:04 |
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| ttx | #action ttx to add Glance gap coverage plan to TechCommittee wiki page for tracking | 20:04 |
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| ttx | #topic Other governance changes in review | 20:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Other governance changes in review (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:04 | |
| ttx | * Modify Images mission to fit Artifact Repository (https://review.openstack.org/98002) | 20:05 |
| markwash | thanks dhellman for the wording | 20:05 |
| dhellmann | markwash: glad I could help :-) | 20:05 |
| ttx | This one is Glance territory too | 20:05 |
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| ttx | A new wording was proposed, hopefully it will please enough people. | 20:05 |
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| ttx | The marketing folks approached me about the change from "image service" to "artifact repository" | 20:05 |
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| markwash | I have a call with them tomorrow | 20:05 |
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| ttx | they want to have a chance to discuss that name and weigh in on the review before this is finally approved | 20:05 |
| ttx | Nobody suggested something better yet, though | 20:06 |
| ttx | but that name leaks into the "official naming" so I think that request is fair | 20:06 |
| annegent_ | it means docs changes too | 20:06 |
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| markwash | I would also like a little time for some other glance folks to respond to the latest patch, if that's okay | 20:06 |
| annegent_ | we use Image Service currently | 20:06 |
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| ttx | so yes, I'll stall this until at least next meeting | 20:06 |
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| annegent_ | ttx: markwash: can I get in on that call? | 20:07 |
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| * annegent_ is not a marketer | 20:07 | |
| ttx | annegent_: i'm not on that call, but maybe markwash can include you | 20:07 |
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| markwash | annegent_: I'll ask to have you included | 20:07 |
| annegent_ | thanks markwash | 20:07 |
| lsell | yes | 20:08 |
| ttx | * Add translation support requirement (https://review.openstack.org/97872) | 20:08 |
| ttx | Requirements changes need consensus, as they reflect the base set of requirements we all agree on | 20:08 |
| ttx | I'm not sure this one is ready to gather that consensus | 20:08 |
| ttx | Looks like policy could mature a bit and the technical result could be tested | 20:08 |
| dhellmann | The i18n team has been trying for 2 summits to move ahead on this. | 20:08 |
| dhellmann | I'd like to at least be able to go back to them with specific instructions about what they need to do. | 20:09 |
| ttx | dhellman_: that's fair | 20:09 |
| dhellmann | we have a lot of the tooling in place already | 20:09 |
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| dhellmann | including the CI jobs | 20:09 |
| ttx | dhellman_: personally I think of two things | 20:09 |
| dhellmann | and a few projects are accepting changes | 20:09 |
| ttx | (1) we need to somehow test that what we do is usable | 20:09 |
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| ttx | because I know of at least two releases where it wasn't the case | 20:09 |
| dhellmann | ok | 20:09 |
| sdague | dhellmann: where are the CI jobs? I guess that's something I'm not aware of. | 20:10 |
| ttx | because there is no automated test around that | 20:10 |
| dhellmann | sdague: jobs to extract the messages, not to run tests | 20:10 |
| jeblair | heh, literally "continuous integration" :) | 20:10 |
| jeblair | unlike most of the jobs we run | 20:10 |
| sdague | ok, fair :) | 20:10 |
| dhellmann | unit tests exist, so what other tests do we want? a full d-g job with an alternate translation? | 20:10 |
| sdague | but that's not the jobs we know we need | 20:10 |
| jeblair | sdague: ++ | 20:10 |
| sdague | dhellmann: yeh | 20:10 |
| ttx | (2) I would like to clarify end-user facing vs. operator-facing messages. The plan was to enable two separate translation domains to be able to prioritize one over the other | 20:10 |
| dhellmann | do we have the resources to run a d-g job with translations? we're already talking about combining some gate jobs | 20:11 |
| ttx | markmc: do we have support for multiple translations domains now ? | 20:11 |
| * ttx lost track of that | 20:11 | |
| markmc | ttx, dhellman has written some nice docs clarifying some of this in the last week | 20:11 |
| sdague | dhellmann: even nightlies are fine | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | ttx: we now have several domains, one for API and other user messages and a bunch of others for different log levels for operators | 20:11 |
| annegent_ | dhellmann: ttx: and documentation | 20:11 |
| sdague | honestly, I'm totally happy to have the i18n jobs be nightlies, but we do need to actually see if that works for reals | 20:12 |
| jeblair | ttx: yeah, if that's something we want to do, we should standardize that (2 domains) at the tc level | 20:12 |
| dhellmann | docs are waiting for the requirements issue to clear up so they can merge: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/96961/ | 20:12 |
| ttx | the current wording places end-user-facing and operators-facing on the same level though. | 20:12 |
| markmc | ttx, http://docs-draft.openstack.org/61/96961/7/check/gate-oslo.i18n-docs/c4074a7/doc/build/html/guidelines.html#log-translation | 20:12 |
| markmc | docs haven't been merged yet | 20:12 |
| dhellmann | ttx, jeblair : there are 5 different domains | 20:12 |
| dhellmann | that's what the translators wanted | 20:12 |
| jeblair | dhellmann: user + 4 logs? | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | they actually wanted 6, but we agreed not to translate debug messages | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | yes | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/96961/7/doc/source/guidelines.rst | 20:13 |
| ttx | dhellmann: ok, so it looks like we could iterate on the current proposal | 20:13 |
| markmc | I think this is progressing well, but we do need the policy to link to these guidelines | 20:13 |
| markmc | and then there's the testing issue | 20:13 |
| ttx | i'll get my feedback in | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | ok, I think we can land the doc changes ^^ this week, and I can update the policy | 20:13 |
| dhellmann | I'll tell the i18n team they need to find someone to work on the test job before we can approve the policy | 20:14 |
| dhellmann | was that the only objection? | 20:14 |
| ttx | it felt like we were farther away from a solution, reading the comments | 20:14 |
| * dhellmann thought so too | 20:14 | |
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| jeblair | i'm optimistic | 20:14 |
| dhellmann | #action dhellmann talk to i18n team about finding someone to create a test job with translations | 20:15 |
| annegent_ | dhellmann: we have a doc gate test for translation job on japanese | 20:15 |
| annegent_ | dhellmann: if it helps | 20:15 |
| dhellmann | annegent_: yes, that may help as an example | 20:15 |
| ttx | OK, let's iterate a bit more on this, if it's not blocked | 20:15 |
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| dhellmann | no, it sounds like they have more work to do, and that's fine now that we know what it is | 20:15 |
| ttx | next topic... | 20:15 |
| devananda | dhellmann: with those doc changes, I think my concern is addressed. | 20:15 |
| dhellmann | devananda: ok, thanks | 20:16 |
| ttx | nice doc | 20:16 |
| ttx | #topic Defcore | 20:16 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Defcore (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:16 | |
| ttx | We have two resolutions covering the recent requests for technical input from Defcore: | 20:16 |
| ttx | * Resolution requesting designated sections from projects (https://review.openstack.org/100675) | 20:16 |
| ttx | Still missing input from Swift, Glance, keystone, Horizon, Neutron and Cinder | 20:17 |
| mikal | So we talked about this one last week | 20:17 |
| mikal | ttx: well, not really | 20:17 |
| ttx | I informed all those PTLs during the 1:1 sync points today | 20:17 |
| markwash | does anyone here have the link to the original etherpad? | 20:17 |
| mikal | My proposal was that we merge this, and then take patches from those projects on top | 20:17 |
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| ttx | mikal: ah. hmm | 20:17 |
| zehicle_at_dell | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/openstack-designated-sections | 20:17 |
| markwash | ty | 20:17 |
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| mikal | ttx: hence the TODOs | 20:18 |
| ttx | mikal: the trick is we'd merge (i.e. approve) a partial thing | 20:18 |
| dhellmann | I like that. I think I would have preferred to have the nova stuff in a separate patch, but there's probably not much to discuss about the header of the resolution itself. | 20:18 |
| ttx | mikal: I thought people would just propose further changesets | 20:18 |
| mikal | dhellmann: I wanted an example to help PTLs work out what to write | 20:18 |
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| jeblair | ttx, mikal: was there a -dev list thread for these? | 20:18 |
| dhellmann | mikal: I thought that's probably what you were doing. | 20:18 |
| russellb | further changesets might get frustrating, fragmenting discussion | 20:18 |
| mikal | ttx: well, I wanted to allow the TC to discuss each project indivisually | 20:18 |
| mikal | i.e. if we dig into a thing on neutron, we should not block say glance | 20:18 |
| dhellmann | they can submit patches on top of this patch, too, it doesn't have to merge first | 20:18 |
| ttx | mikal: right, I just fear that will push us past "end of month" | 20:19 |
| dhellmann | mikal: +1 | 20:19 |
| mikal | ttx: well, it means we can do them in parallel | 20:19 |
| eglynn | zehicle_at_dell: is backporting test coverage to tempest:stable/havana an option at this stage for a project that's not currently included in these designated sections? | 20:19 |
| mikal | But I agree that I've sat on this too long | 20:19 |
| ttx | jeblair: no specific thread on that specific request, no | 20:19 |
| zehicle_at_dell | eglynn, it's not required | 20:20 |
| ttx | jeblair: it's been documented through all the defcore posts | 20:20 |
| zehicle_at_dell | we agreed with the Tempest team that we could test Havana using trunk branchless | 20:20 |
| ttx | also input was already provided in an etherpad before | 20:20 |
| zehicle_at_dell | since Havana is advisory, it's OK | 20:20 |
| markmc | we could add a designated sections template and ask each project to complete it | 20:20 |
| markmc | don't need all projects in one file | 20:20 |
| ttx | markmc: +1 | 20:21 |
| eglynn | zehicle_at_dell: ok, interesting ... I though branchless tempest only applied to stable/icehouse not before | 20:21 |
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| sdague | zehicle_at_dell: branchless tempest doesn't work on havana | 20:21 |
| mikal | markmc: that's true, I hadn't thought of that | 20:21 |
| sdague | it's icehouse and forward | 20:21 |
| mikal | We could for example build a little directory tree or something | 20:21 |
| dhellmann | markmc: we could add that to the programs.yaml file, too | 20:21 |
| eglynn | zehicle_at_dell: i.e. wot sdague said | 20:21 |
| zehicle_at_dell | eglynn, we're testing the stable APIs. It's a pretty good test of the ones we are most interested in | 20:21 |
| sdague | there were too many API breaks between havana and icehouse | 20:21 |
| ttx | mikal: maybe make a directory under resolutions | 20:21 |
| * dhellmann still needs to work on turning programs.yaml into html | 20:21 | |
| mikal | eglynn: well, except it will change over time and the historical values matter | 20:21 |
| mikal | Would people like me to refactor this into a directory and see what it looks like? | 20:22 |
| zehicle_at_dell | sdague, it they are breaks in "core" APIs then we want to know that | 20:22 |
| ttx | mikal: +1 | 20:22 |
| dhellmann | +1 | 20:22 |
| mikal | I could do that now and we could circle back in a few minutes | 20:22 |
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| ttx | mikal: also redirect people to doing their own change, because I told them all to changeset your original change | 20:22 |
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| ttx | mikal: so you can add a note on the commit message to redirect them | 20:22 |
| sdague | zehicle_at_dell: well, it's more complicated, because of the way tempest used to coevolve with projects, the APIs could slip over time | 20:22 |
| jeblair | mikal: do i understand correctly that your nova change means a public cloud can run nova with a proprietary compute driver, scheduler, and database, and declare that they are running "OpenStack"? | 20:22 |
| russellb | jeblair: correct. | 20:23 |
| zehicle_at_dell | sdague, it really makes it easier if we focus on the forward direction of Tempest instead of trying to make it work for a release that we're not really enforcing | 20:23 |
| mikal | jeblair: OMG, can we decouple that for just a moment? | 20:23 |
| mikal | I'm happy to discuss it, but I want to unblock the process first | 20:23 |
| russellb | jeblair: well, potentially. | 20:23 |
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| sdague | and we looked at what it would take to get havana in line, and it really was more work than anyone was willing to sign up for | 20:23 |
| ttx | jeblair: well, they would need to run a few other openstack pieces :) | 20:23 |
| sdague | zehicle_at_dell: agreed | 20:23 |
| zehicle_at_dell | sdague, happy to discuss it more. would want to involve davidlenwell_ | 20:23 |
| sdague | that's why our focus is icehouse forward | 20:23 |
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| jeblair | mikal: okay sure -- i thought we were good on the process. :) | 20:23 |
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| sdague | plus it gets rid of backport burden | 20:24 |
| ttx | jeblair: also I don't think they would run "openstack". They would maybe run "an openstack compatible cloud" or "an openstack interoperable cloud" | 20:24 |
| mikal | jeblair: well, except I have to do this refacotr | 20:24 |
| ttx | trademarks to be defined | 20:24 |
| jeblair | mikal: it's the first time we're seeing this whole thing converge and i'm just sanity checking my understanding | 20:24 |
| jeblair | mikal: carry on! | 20:24 |
| markmc | ttx, nope, this would be an OpenStack cloud | 20:25 |
| * ttx wants to decouple "openstack" the thing we work on from the trademark programs | 20:25 | |
| zehicle_at_dell | ttx, the specific trademarks are "powered" and "compatible" as defined by the Foundation | 20:25 |
| zehicle_at_dell | but compatible does not mean quite what you may thing - it's not about APIs | 20:25 |
| ttx | zehicle: right | 20:25 |
| markmc | ttx, OpenStack Compatible (if such a TM existed) would be where you're not running the designated sections | 20:25 |
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| ttx | markmc: so.. "OpenStack powered" ? | 20:25 |
| markmc | ttx, yeah | 20:26 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | markc, we'd have to use a different name but the API only mark is still a ways off. We've deliberately NOT done that | 20:26 |
| markmc | zehicle_at_dell, that's why I said "(if such a TM existed)" | 20:26 |
| zehicle_at_dell | markc, and it's not clear that we will at this time | 20:26 |
| markmc | and it's markmc not markc | 20:26 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | markc, I understand. the trick is that there IS a compatible mark. | 20:26 |
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| dhellmann | mikal: these all look like reasonable plugin spots in nova. I assume there are designated sections that call all of these things listed as exceptions? | 20:27 |
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| ttx | markmc: I still think we should prefix whatever technical input we produce for Defcore with clear warnings that we do not encourage substituting pieces of openstack code | 20:27 |
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| mikal | dhellmann: well, all of those things have well defined plug in layers, and existing out of tree extensions (to the best of my knowledge) | 20:28 |
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| dhellmann | mikal: like, you say "scheduler driver" but that implies the scheduler service is still considered designated? | 20:28 |
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| ttx | because I want to just designate areas of code that are desogned to be extensible | 20:28 |
| markmc | ttx, as in, that would be the TC's consensus input to the board's TM policy decision making ? | 20:28 |
| jeblair | ttx: i think that may be in conflict with the actual content of that change | 20:28 |
| mikal | dhellmann: agreed. You run the service, but you can plug in your own algorithm | 20:28 |
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| dhellmann | cool | 20:28 |
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| mikal | Is https://review.openstack.org/#/c/100675/4 closer? | 20:28 |
| dhellmann | that seems like exactly what we want to be doing when we specify designated sections -- specifying the bits we think should and should not be replaceable | 20:28 |
| russellb | ttx: i don't know why we'd list anything if we felt you shouldn't actually replace code | 20:29 |
| mikal | dhellmann: noting that we have already passed a set of guidelines which basically say that | 20:29 |
| ttx | jeblair: on one side, we the TC are the ultimate technical representation, and we are asked to provide a technical input, which is basically which parts of the code allow plugins | 20:29 |
| mikal | i.e. we're being consistent over time which is a nice feeling | 20:29 |
| jeblair | mikal: you have extra content in 'instructions.rst' | 20:29 |
| mikal | jeblair: doh | 20:29 |
| dhellmann | mikal: you probably want a file in the resolutions/ dir to point to all of those little files so they render properly. I can help you with that offline. | 20:29 |
| ttx | jeblair: on the other, we are the representation of the contributors of the project, and as mordred said last week, we should not encourage building proprietary products on top of openstack | 20:29 |
| russellb | ttx: we can't pretend to be ignorant to the purpose of why we're providing this list ... | 20:29 |
| mikal | dhellmann: ta | 20:30 |
| mikal | dhellmann: perhaps instructions.rst should be up a dir level? | 20:30 |
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| mikal | dhellmann: and include the sub files? | 20:30 |
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| mikal | jeblair: fix uploaded | 20:30 |
| ttx | russellb: the alternative would be what ? To refuse to produce that information, so that they have to make their own idea ? | 20:30 |
| dhellmann | mikal: that would work, maybe using a toctree | 20:30 |
| mikal | dhellmann: got an example I can copy? | 20:30 |
| ttx | I prefer to provide a conservative version | 20:30 |
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| jeblair | ttx: i lean toward very conservative. | 20:31 |
| ttx | at least we cna make sure that it follows technical lines | 20:31 |
| dhellmann | mikal: let me whip one up | 20:31 |
| russellb | ttx: to say that what we support is getting involved and contributing to the project, and that what we deliver is OpenStack, not intended to be replaced by outside code, even if technically possible | 20:31 |
| mikal | dhellmann: thanks man | 20:31 |
| * zehicle_at_dell would like to have a follow-up from last week to review the process and clearify how designated sections and capabilities become core | 20:31 | |
| ttx | jeblair: we approved guidelines before -- do you still agree with them ? | 20:31 |
| mikal | dhellmann: Or just upload a new version of that review with it done... | 20:31 |
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| mikal | dhellmann: we don't need too much process for that | 20:31 |
| ttx | jeblair: http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/governance/tree/resolutions/20140402-defcore-designated-sections-guidelines.rst | 20:32 |
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| dhellmann | mikal: ok, doing that now | 20:32 |
| mikal | dhellmann: :) | 20:32 |
| ttx | If we follow those guidelines we previously approved, we can provide a technical answer | 20:33 |
| markmc | ttx, the important point IMHO is that we should not be in a position where it looks like the TC is the ones pushing a TM policy that allows drivers to be replaced with proprietary alternatives | 20:33 |
| russellb | markmc: +100 | 20:33 |
| ttx | markmc: that I agree on | 20:33 |
| markmc | ttx, we can provide technical input (perhaps policy opinions too), but ultimately the board is the one making this policy decision | 20:34 |
| ttx | we need to be able to provide that etchnical info without endorsing the policy that might be driven from it | 20:34 |
| devananda | markmc: ++ | 20:34 |
| jeblair | ttx: i abstained from that vote. i'm still trying to understand the ramifications of this; thus my question earlier. | 20:34 |
| mikal | markmc: do you feel we're doing that now though? | 20:34 |
| mikal | markmc: we're effectively just listing the areas we think plugins are ok | 20:34 |
| russellb | i feel we're being roped in as accomplices by generating this list, yes. | 20:34 |
| russellb | and the more i think about it, the less I like this whole thing. | 20:34 |
| jeblair | ttx: i will vote on the actual resolutions, however. | 20:35 |
| markmc | mikal, I've seen language in the etherpads that suggests we have full control over this aspect of the TM policy | 20:35 |
| devananda | OTOH, we should not be in a position where we prevent folks from making necessary customizations for their environment (eg, changing scheduler filters, or adding hardware drivers, etc) | 20:35 |
| mikal | Picking on the nova example, I think that horse has bolted for all these examples | 20:35 |
| dhellmann | mikal: updated | 20:35 |
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| dhellmann | mikal: oops, should update the instructions, too | 20:36 |
| jeblair | devananda: i'm not sure we have the power to prevent that sort of thing. what we may have the power to prevent is people doing that sort of thing and calling their work ours. | 20:36 |
| mikal | dhellmann: yeah, just noticed that | 20:36 |
| zehicle_at_dell | russellb, "roped in" - we're trying to have Board & TC collaboration FWIW | 20:36 |
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| dhellmann | mikal: fixed | 20:37 |
| russellb | zehicle_at_dell: *nod* and that much is appreciated | 20:37 |
| mikal | dhellmann: am I fixing or you? | 20:37 |
| mikal | Ok, cool | 20:37 |
| sdague | markmc: is your statement just in reference to the TM? because the projects being apache licensed do kind of explicitly allow for proprietary mix. | 20:37 |
| sdague | (note: mostly playing devil's advocate there, because I want people upstream as much as possible) | 20:37 |
| markmc | sdague, yeah, it's just about the TM | 20:37 |
| ttx | hmm | 20:37 |
| markmc | sdague, we can value people's freedom to mix with proprietary | 20:37 |
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| ttx | so I think we should have a lot of discussions about this this week | 20:37 |
| sdague | markmc: ok, sure, I agree with that | 20:37 |
| ttx | this meeting won't be enough | 20:37 |
| markmc | sdague, we don't have to value it so much that they should be able to call it OpenStack | 20:37 |
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| russellb | markmc: indeed | 20:38 |
| jeblair | ttx: agreed | 20:38 |
| markmc | sdague, OTOH, I do like the idea of an OpenStack Compatible Cloud TM | 20:38 |
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| * zehicle_at_dell repeats that a single topic meeting on this may be helpful to resolve concerns and help collaboration. I don't want to hijack TC meetings with concerns over the broader process | 20:39 | |
| mikal | Ok, so... | 20:39 |
| devananda | zehicle_at_dell: ++ to separate meeting | 20:39 |
| mikal | dhellmann and I now have https://review.openstack.org/#/c/100675 ready for people to take another look please | 20:39 |
| russellb | we've spent a ton of a lot of meetings on this | 20:39 |
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| sdague | markmc: sure. Though I think we've got a lot of internal technical work to make that meaningful. /me stares at how optional the nova api is, for instance. | 20:39 |
| russellb | could at least move to the ML after this to keep it moving | 20:40 |
| zehicle_at_dell | russellb, yes and likely many more to come. there's a lot at stake and we're taking it slow | 20:40 |
| ttx | zehicle: right, I'd like to see if i can find a middle path first | 20:40 |
| markmc | sdague, we can value people with products that are compatible with OpenStack; but we likely value them less than OpenStack products | 20:40 |
| ttx | but then we can certainly do a single-topic meeting | 20:40 |
| ttx | could even be a TC meeting dedicated to the issue | 20:40 |
| devananda | it seems like this derails the TC every time it comes up -- which should tell us something about the topic | 20:40 |
| ttx | yes, we need to clarify our positions | 20:40 |
| * zehicle_at_dell is in the Bay area this week. happy to also meet 1x1 with people if they'd like. | 20:41 | |
| ttx | ok, so I'll be in touch via IRC with various members soon | 20:41 |
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| ttx | and will consider dedicating a full meeting to that issue, maybe next week | 20:41 |
| russellb | thanks, ttx. | 20:41 |
| zehicle_at_dell | ttx, please let me know so I can include DefCore members | 20:41 |
| dhellmann | zehicle_at_dell: I would actually prefer that you not meet 1:1 with anyone. Having separate in person meetings that we can't all attend is in part why some of us are confused. | 20:41 |
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| ttx | zehicle: you can already warn them, that would be 20:00 UTC on Tuesday | 20:42 |
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| zehicle_at_dell | dhellmanm, hmmm. not sure I agree | 20:42 |
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| ttx | The other review is: | 20:42 |
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| ttx | * Propose scores for DefCore capabilities (https://review.openstack.org/100721) (https://review.openstack.org/100722) | 20:43 |
| ttx | I think it's in the same bag though. | 20:43 |
| dhellmann | zehicle_at_dell: the DefCore team has produced a lot of written stuff that I personally have had trouble wading through because I don't have the context from the meetings. | 20:43 |
| ttx | #topic Election behavior guidelines | 20:43 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Election behavior guidelines (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:43 | |
| ttx | We have two competing proposals now: | 20:43 |
| ttx | * Adds a resolution addressing expected election behaviour (https://review.openstack.org/98675) | 20:43 |
| ttx | * A resolution on standards of behavior during elections (https://review.openstack.org/100445) | 20:43 |
| dhellmann | zehicle_at_dell: that's not a knock on your work, just a thing I've been struggling with as I review the output | 20:43 |
| ttx | Both describe expected behavior from candidates in a way that will reach the intended goal IMHO | 20:43 |
| markmc | ttx, heh, which is which :) | 20:44 |
| ttx | They differ in the way they suggest issues are to be handled: | 20:44 |
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| ttx | First one describe a process to report issues privately, which then may escalate to the Community Code of Conduct violation process | 20:44 |
| ttx | Second one suggests to report issues publicly and let voters be influenced (or not) by the publicly reported issue | 20:44 |
| ttx | Personally I prefer the first one because (1) not everybody is comfortable with reporting issues publicly | 20:44 |
| ttx | and (2) I fear that without independent investigation imaginary claims would have the same impact as real issues in the public forum | 20:44 |
| ttx | BUT it's worth noting that whichever we choose to explicitly promote, both options are always present: | 20:44 |
| zehicle_at_dell | dhellmann, that's why we create summaries. don't know how to have a transparent process with less clutter. the 1x1 helps me have better back and forth with people who have strong opinions | 20:45 |
| jeblair | ttx: i agree, and i believe the second one does not address the actual problems we've seen | 20:45 |
| ttx | - you can always report a CoC violation | 20:45 |
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| ttx | - you can always publicly shame behavior in an attempt to influence voters | 20:45 |
| ttx | A third proposal would be to not promote any specific way issues are to be handled. | 20:45 |
| ttx | and just adopt Anita's draft line 1-21 or Eoghan's draft lines 1-12 + 30-42 | 20:45 |
| mikal | The third way sounds like a cop out to me | 20:45 |
| jeblair | i'd like to find out what people think the reporting mechanism should be, and fix up the first one. | 20:45 |
| sdague | so I'd be fine with the private reporting, though I do like the pledge in the 2nd one | 20:45 |
| annegent_ | to me, the reporting mechanism should be the same as a violation of code of conduct | 20:45 |
| * anteaya would like to know what people think will happen if someone loses foundation membership | 20:45 | |
| sdague | because I actually think that, by itself, is a powerful deterant | 20:46 |
| annegent_ | easier to explain and remember | 20:46 |
| jeblair | sdague: i don't like the pledge -- i think forced pledges are insincere and we've seen no objectionable behavior from actual candidates | 20:46 |
| dhellmann | as was pointed out, the pledge wouldn't have solved the issue we had last cycle because the candidate wasn't acting "badly" | 20:46 |
| ttx | anteaya: can't vote, can't be elected to TC (can still be PTL I think) | 20:46 |
| jeblair | sdague: i think that fundamentally, it's the communication that's the deterrent, and that's what we should do | 20:46 |
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| anteaya | txx can't get summit passes | 20:46 |
| dhellmann | and we essentially have the "no clear reporting guidelines" now, and so we have this issue that no one wants to talk about publicly | 20:46 |
| ttx | hmm no, can't be elected PTl either | 20:47 |
| anteaya | so what is wrong with losing voting previledges and summit passes? | 20:47 |
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| anteaya | and not being able to stand for election | 20:47 |
| ttx | anteaya: tat we can easily fix | 20:47 |
| ttx | (the pass) | 20:47 |
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| anteaya | right | 20:47 |
| annegent_ | I'm also a bit concerned about the pledge and any legal ramifications for poor wording or definitions that aren't crisply legal | 20:47 |
| anteaya | so all the lose is the right to vote and lead | 20:47 |
| anteaya | I dont' think that is excessive for violations of fair elections | 20:47 |
| annegent_ | what if the candidate herself is not the bad actor? Has that already been discussed? | 20:47 |
| jeblair | and to be fair, i think anteaya's inclusion of language about the existing CoC is helpful -- it already exists, says what it says and has penalties; nothing about this can or should change that. | 20:48 |
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| jeblair | we could not mention it, but that won't change that it exists | 20:48 |
| ttx | jeblair: right, that's my point about the choice not being that much relevant anyway, both options exist already | 20:48 |
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| jeblair | ttx: yeah | 20:49 |
| markmc | rather than focus on punishment, maybe it should be on correcting our culture | 20:49 |
| anteaya | mostly this gives me the right to investigate, if someone makes a report, and says who I report to | 20:49 |
| markmc | e.g. in the cases in the last cycle, it might have been enough to talk about the concrete issues without naming names | 20:49 |
| ttx | jeblair: which is why a 3rd proposal where you just reaffirm the behavior and link to the CoC would be sufficient | 20:49 |
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| markmc | I'm not sure the people involved realized they were necessarily doing anything terribly wrong | 20:50 |
| ttx | markmc: i'm not sure eglynn's proposal achieves "correcting our culture" better, though | 20:50 |
| markmc | that's what needs correcting | 20:50 |
| markmc | ttx, it talks about culture, and reinforcing it | 20:50 |
| anteaya | really? | 20:50 |
| ttx | I fear that public shaming is not the solution we shoud encourage either | 20:50 |
| markmc | ttx, "talk about the concrete issues without naming names" | 20:51 |
| anteaya | you think people in opensource dint' know that circualteing private emails was not a good idea | 20:51 |
| markmc | i.e. not quite publich shaming, but at least publicly discuss the behavior | 20:51 |
| anteaya | and using the voters list for the emails? | 20:51 |
| jeblair | (or private campaign events) | 20:51 |
| anteaya | I don't buy they didn't know | 20:51 |
| markmc | anteaya, I was a recipient of that email, saw how the recipients responded to it and felt the sender's apology was sincere | 20:51 |
| markmc | anteaya, people can get carried away with their enthusiasm | 20:52 |
| anteaya | okay well you know more than I | 20:52 |
| anteaya | because I never saw it | 20:52 |
| mikal | So, I think it might be harder than we realize to draw the line by the way | 20:52 |
| anteaya | becaue noone filed a report | 20:52 |
| markmc | anteaya, that's what concerns me about all of this - it lacks empathy for people making genuine mistakes | 20:52 |
| annegent_ | anteaya: besides, legally, if I RSVP to a Summit party, how do I know I haven't opted in to being on a mailing? | 20:52 |
| mikal | So... Is a summit party "hosted" by a person intending to run for election inappropriate for example? | 20:52 |
| anteaya | markmc: so as a receiptent do you think this was a genuine mistake? | 20:52 |
| annegent_ | markmc: yes, me too | 20:52 |
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| markwash | is it really the job of the resolution to show empathy? | 20:52 |
| markmc | anteaya, very much so, yes | 20:52 |
| anteaya | and do you think if I read the email, I would reach the same conclusion? | 20:52 |
| markmc | anteaya, poorly judged, I'd say | 20:52 |
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| anteaya | do you think I would conclude the same as you | 20:53 |
| markmc | anteaya, where the sender realized the error when it was pointed out | 20:53 |
| annegent_ | markwash: not empathy but fairness and rights | 20:53 |
| markmc | russellb, would you agree ? | 20:53 |
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| russellb | i think the apology was sincere, yes | 20:53 |
| russellb | so yes, agreed | 20:53 |
| dhellmann | mikal: good question, and I'd like to think if there was some formal way to raise the issue an attendee who was uncomfortable would at least have a way to get an answer. | 20:53 |
| markmc | it wasn't acceptable behavior, that's not the point | 20:53 |
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| anteaya | so the email and using teh voters list was one incident | 20:53 |
| jeblair | markmc: i think the existing proposal in 1 is quite fair -- it does not rely on the election inspector to make significant judgements -- it does rely on the ED to do so, but he or she is already empowered by the bylaws and coc to do exactly that | 20:53 |
| russellb | very poorly judged mistake, with a sincere apology after it was calledo ut | 20:53 |
| anteaya | the other was the private meeting | 20:53 |
| annegent_ | dhellmann: but we have a reporting structure already | 20:54 |
| russellb | i don't know if it was a single incident or not, but markmc were on the same one | 20:54 |
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| russellb | markmc and I* | 20:54 |
| dhellmann | annegent_: do we? what is it? | 20:54 |
| ttx | I could go with a new version of eglynn's proposal that would at least mention that the CCoC covers election behavior, and does not go into such great lengths to encourage public shaming | 20:54 |
| anteaya | annegent_: yes, I too would like to know | 20:54 |
| jeblair | markmc: i feel like we could drop the second part of the first proposal and we would have a lot more agreement, however, i'm not sure it would actually change any of the facts | 20:54 |
| dhellmann | annegent_ : I thought anteaya said she didn't receive any complaints? | 20:54 |
| anteaya | since i didn't and noone else did | 20:54 |
| annegent_ | dhellmann: http://www.openstack.org/legal/code-of-conduct/ << possibly we need a tc resolution for our elections that enhances this, but this document is well tested and clear | 20:54 |
| anteaya | whom I consulted while this was going on | 20:54 |
| ttx | or with a new version of Anita's that would not feel like empathy is not an option | 20:54 |
| anteaya | annegent_: yes, that is what my proposal references | 20:55 |
| annegent_ | dhellmann: but anyone could report the violation, does it have to go through election officials? | 20:55 |
| anteaya | I had many questions during this situation | 20:55 |
| eglynn | ttx: I could draft something of that ilk, keeping the original "ethos" of the proposal | 20:55 |
| ttx | annegent_: technically, not | 20:55 |
| anteaya | and zero reports | 20:55 |
| annegent_ | ttx: so you're asking for another proposal? | 20:55 |
| dhellmann | annegent_: I don't know. Maybe you're right and we just need to clarify the answer to that question | 20:55 |
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| jeblair | ttx: i'd be okay with just the first part of anteaya's but i feel like we'd be dropping the ball on trying to clarify a policy and not actually clarifying how to deal with violations | 20:55 |
| anteaya | jeblair: + | 20:55 |
| anteaya | we need to know how this is resolved | 20:56 |
| annegent_ | to me, we either are drafting a separate code of conduct for tc / ptl candidates or asking those candidates and the electorate to follow the existing CoC | 20:56 |
| ttx | annegent_: I think we can't choose between the two because we want both (and will have both anyway) | 20:56 |
| annegent_ | there may be a third option | 20:56 |
| anteaya | otherwise we end up feeling it isn't even after it is | 20:56 |
| sdague | I do think the empathy piece is important. As we grow in community size, we don't know each other like we used to, and if we don't give the benefit of the doubt I'm concerned where that takes us | 20:56 |
| ttx | annegent_: since nothing will prevent people from filing CCoC violations and/or publicshame people on -dev | 20:56 |
| anteaya | take the shanley thing, which reached a resolution, but people thought it didnt' | 20:56 |
| markwash | but empathy has other vehicles than the resolution, too | 20:57 |
| anteaya | and still have the perception that it didn't | 20:57 |
| ttx | choosing one feels like we promote one behavior over the other | 20:57 |
| dhellmann | sdague: +1 | 20:57 |
| jeblair | sdague: what do you think the reporting mechanism should be? | 20:57 |
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| anteaya | I'm really surprised at suggestions that conducting an investigation implies I will lack empathy | 20:57 |
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| anteaya | I just want to find the facts | 20:57 |
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| anteaya | not dwell in gossip | 20:57 |
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| dhellmann | ttx: I don't know that I could point to any example of public shaming in open source that had a good outcome. | 20:58 |
| annegent_ | anteaya: it's not you specifically, it's whether it makes sense to make the election official apart from the foundation | 20:58 |
| mikal | anteaya: I agree. There is no harm in the election officials investigating concerns. | 20:58 |
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| anteaya | mikal: thank you | 20:58 |
| anteaya | that is all I am asking for | 20:58 |
| anteaya | the abiltiy to investigate | 20:58 |
| annegent_ | and to me, the election officials serve an important role of knowing the CoC and reporting mechanisms but that they shouldn't be separate from the rest of the membership | 20:58 |
| anteaya | if the mistake was genuine | 20:58 |
| anteaya | that comes out in the facts | 20:59 |
| markmc | anteaya, would you (as the election official) be comfortable summarizing complaints with names redacted? | 20:59 |
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| markmc | anteaya, publicly | 20:59 |
| annegent_ | I'd rather the foundation do the investigations and that I know who to report to rather than spreading out the reporting further | 20:59 |
| anteaya | markmc: if that is the structure that is decided upon, yes | 20:59 |
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| markmc | that could be a part of the process | 20:59 |
| markmc | not necessarily the whole thing | 20:59 |
| anteaya | though my preference would be to report to at least one other body before doing so | 20:59 |
| markmc | just an idea | 20:59 |
| jbryce | this last time around, i heard concerns after the election was already closed and a comment from those people that they weren’t sure how to report beforehand | 20:59 |
| ttx | dhellmann: I agree... which is why i don't really like eglynn's proposal saying "openly draw attention to cases where the actual behavior of candidates is questionable" | 20:59 |
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| mikal | annegent_: I think what anteaya is saying is that she's effectively the person delegated by the foundation to run the election, and therefore should be the first point of contact for election issues. | 21:00 |
| jbryce | so if anything, i think that some guidance on whom to contact is needed. whicever path is chosen | 21:00 |
| anteaya | mikal: I'm delegated byt the tc | 21:00 |
| ttx | jbryce: +1 | 21:00 |
| devananda | jbryce: +1 | 21:00 |
| mikal | annegent_: this might be because for example we might need to stop and re-run the election, which would require the election official's involvement | 21:00 |
| anteaya | mikal: the elections follow the tc charter, I report to the tc | 21:00 |
| jbryce | whether that’s list, tc delegate, foundation officer…i think right now people just don’t know | 21:00 |
| markmc | anteaya, nicely clarified :) | 21:00 |
| * anteaya nods | 21:00 | |
| mikal | anteaya: sure, but that's the TC acting on behalf of the foundation, right? | 21:00 |
| ttx | ok, time is running out | 21:00 |
| ttx | mikal: no | 21:01 |
| dhellmann | anteaya: so it sounds like you already know your reporting structure for issues, but people don't know they can report them to you | 21:01 |
| anteaya | mikal: yes | 21:01 |
| eglynn | any closer to a decision point, folks? | 21:01 |
| jeblair | well, the tc is chartered by the foundation bylaws, so there's a relationship there | 21:01 |
| mikal | LOL | 21:01 |
| anteaya | dhellmann: yes | 21:01 |
| anteaya | dhellmann: that is how I felt | 21:01 |
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| anteaya | I tried to get people to file a report | 21:01 |
| ttx | jeblair: yes, partly | 21:01 |
| anteaya | they wouldn't | 21:01 |
| anteaya | because they didn't kow how it worked | 21:02 |
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| ttx | ok... next steps? | 21:02 |
| annegent_ | I'm okay with documenting the reporting... I'm struggling with documenting what behavior to report. | 21:02 |
| sdague | anteaya: ok, so with that context, I think it's fine to clarify the reporting | 21:02 |
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| anteaya | sdague: great thanks | 21:02 |
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| anteaya | pick whatever body you want | 21:02 |
| anteaya | that is whom I will report to | 21:02 |
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| ttx | we have until the next elections to pick the right thing :) | 21:02 |
| dhellmann | annegent_: is there harm in leaving the behavior open-ended, and applying judgement to the reports? | 21:02 |
| devananda | I would think folks will continue to hesitate to report a preceived issue when they do not know what that report will lead to | 21:02 |
| ttx | and this meeting is over | 21:03 |
| mikal | Sigh | 21:03 |
| annegent_ | dhellmann: it's less risky from a legal standpoint, to me | 21:03 |
| devananda | but knowing who to report to is, at least, something :) | 21:03 |
| mikal | I feel like sometimes IRC is the wrong format for these contentious issues | 21:03 |
| devananda | mikal: ++ | 21:03 |
| annegent_ | mikal: truth | 21:03 |
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| dhellmann | mikal: +1 | 21:03 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:03 | |
| anteaya | mikal: your living room for the next? | 21:03 |
| mikal | I want to lock you all in a room and not let you out until we reach a concensus | 21:03 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 24 21:03:45 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:03 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-06-24-20.02.html | 21:03 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-06-24-20.02.txt | 21:03 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-06-24-20.02.log.html | 21:03 |
| annegent_ | lol | 21:03 |
| anteaya | mikal: I'm bringing my cat | 21:04 |
| mikal | anteaya: heh, sure! | 21:04 |
| ttx | mikal: it would probably help a lot. | 21:04 |
| mikal | anteaya: and cats are welcome | 21:04 |
| jogo_ | zehicle_at_dell: DefCore question http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/foundation/2014-June/001697.html | 21:04 |
| jbryce | mikal: but who do you escalate to if someone else has the key to the lock?? | 21:04 |
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| mikal | ttx: in all seriousness, I'm starting to think we need a TC midcycle meetup | 21:04 |
| mikal | ttx: I feel some of these issues will never be resolved this way | 21:04 |
| ttx | isn't that called OSCON? | 21:04 |
| mikal | ttx: which sucks because they're important | 21:04 |
| ttx | oh wait | 21:04 |
| ttx | dhellmann, dolphm, notmyname, eglynn, markwash, jgriffith, mikal, zaneb, david-lyle, kmestery, SlickNik, SergeyLukjanov: around ? | 21:04 |
| russellb | maybe if OSCON tickets weren't 18 thousand dollars or whatever | 21:04 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 21:05 |
| mikal | ttx: well, we haven't been explicit about that, so I for example am not approved to go to OSCON | 21:05 |
| mestery | o/ | 21:05 |
| eglynn | o/ | 21:05 |
| dolphm | o/ | 21:05 |
| david-lyle | o/ | 21:05 |
| notmyname | here | 21:05 |
| SlickNik | o/ | 21:05 |
| markwash | o/ | 21:05 |
| ttx | #startmeeting project | 21:05 |
| dhellmann | mikal, ttx : yeah, I didn't even know I was supposed to ask | 21:05 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 24 21:05:17 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:05 |
| mikal | I am not here. I am in a cloud of annoyed. | 21:05 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:05 |
| jgriffith | o/ | 21:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:05 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'project' | 21:05 |
| ttx | Sorry for the lateness | 21:05 |
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| mikal | Ok fine, I'm here | 21:05 |
| ttx | damn TC cahir can't keep meeting on rails | 21:05 |
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| ttx | chair* | 21:05 |
| SlickNik | lol | 21:05 |
| ttx | Agenda for today is available at: | 21:05 |
| ttx | #link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/ProjectMeeting | 21:05 |
| mikal | ttx: yeah, _that_guy_ | 21:05 |
| ttx | #topic News from the 1:1 sync points | 21:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "News from the 1:1 sync points (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:06 | |
| ttx | See log at: | 21:06 |
| ttx | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ptl_sync/2014/ptl_sync.2014-06-24-08.01.html | 21:06 |
| therve | o/ | 21:06 |
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| ttx | Juno-2 plans look relatively good, thanks to autokick.py invaluable contribution to clarity | 21:06 |
| mikal | ttx: I feel like we should tell people to hold off on proposing dedicated sections for their things until the TC is finished arguing | 21:06 |
| ttx | mikal: we can parallelize | 21:06 |
| ttx | #topic Other program news | 21:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Other program news (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:07 | |
| ttx | Infra, QA, Docs... anything you'd like to mention ? | 21:07 |
| mtreinish | ttx: we started running some tempest jobs on trusty today | 21:07 |
| mtreinish | seems to be working well so far | 21:08 |
| eglynn | mtreinish: as an experiment? | 21:08 |
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| mestery | mtreinish: Yay! | 21:08 |
| eglynn | mtreinish: ... or in anger? | 21:08 |
| ttx | mikal: we just need to have 1:1 discussions over those topics over the week, not just all at once in a one-hour slot | 21:08 |
| SlickNik | mtreinish: nice! | 21:08 |
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| mtreinish | eglynn: as the first step in migrating over. I think they're in the check queue | 21:08 |
| eglynn | mtreinish: "in anger" == voting? | 21:08 |
| eglynn | mtreinish: cool | 21:08 |
| mtreinish | clarkb has been doing all the work | 21:08 |
| mtreinish | eglynn: yeah they're voting | 21:08 |
| eglynn | clarkb: kudos! | 21:08 |
| * eglynn looks forward to the happy day when ceilo gates against mongodb :) | 21:09 | |
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| clarkb | eglynn: well it does gate against mongodb on cetnos6 right? | 21:09 |
| clarkb | eglynn: also pecan is guinea pigging for you and will run ceilometer tests on trusty | 21:09 |
| eglynn | clarkb: not py27 or tempest | 21:09 |
| eglynn | clarkb: but yeah, jut py26 units | 21:10 |
| eglynn | *just | 21:10 |
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| clarkb | that should happen real soon now then we can expand to the rest of ceilometer | 21:10 |
| eglynn | clarkb: excellent! :) | 21:10 |
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| ttx | ok, anything else ? | 21:11 |
| mtreinish | nothing from me | 21:11 |
| ttx | #topic Common spec proposal/approval deadlines | 21:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Common spec proposal/approval deadlines (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:11 | |
| ttx | As was predicted, -specs review represents a lot of work | 21:11 |
| dhellmann | I'm anticipating markmc releasing a new version of oslo.messaging soon, so heads-up on that | 21:11 |
| ttx | nova wins with a specs backlog of 154 | 21:12 |
| ttx | I still think design up-front will ultimately result in less wasted effort | 21:12 |
| ttx | But as we get closer to feature freeze (juno-3) there will be a point in time where stuff under spec review can't possibly make it into Juno | 21:12 |
| ttx | And reviewing specs after that point will be a distraction from Juno work | 21:12 |
| mikal | We're going to try a specs review day tomorrow to see if that helps | 21:12 |
| ttx | So we discussed today the idea of a Juno spec proposal deadline | 21:12 |
| ttx | It would come a few weeks before a Juno spec approval deadline | 21:12 |
| mikal | ttx: did you see my email to openstack-dev with nova's proposed dates for such a thing? | 21:12 |
| ttx | which would come before the Feature proposal Freeze (the deadline for proposing implementation code for review) | 21:13 |
| ttx | mikal: yes | 21:13 |
| ttx | which in itself comes before Feature freeze (September 4) | 21:13 |
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| ttx | The question is, which projects are interested in following that, and is there convergence on dates (or is each project using different dates) | 21:13 |
| therve | ttx, Sounds like a lot of process... | 21:13 |
| ttx | Personally I think SpecApprovalDeadline (SAD) should be at least 3 weeks before FPF, so before July 31 | 21:13 |
| ttx | And SpecProposalDeadline (SPD) at least two weeks before that, so before July 17 | 21:13 |
| ttx | mikal proposed for Nova: July 3 for SPD, July 10 for SAD | 21:13 |
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| ttx | therve: it might not make sense for smaller projects | 21:13 |
| mikal | We had a bit of a balancing act | 21:13 |
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| ttx | mikal: One week between the two might not be long enough to give them a chance | 21:14 |
| mikal | We wanted to have those earlier, but have left it too late | 21:14 |
| eglynn | I was think July 11th as SAD for ceilo, so similar | 21:14 |
| ttx | mikal: Also you could use the meetup for a quick approval round | 21:14 |
| ttx | therve: I like the SAD acronym though | 21:14 |
| mikal | Yeah, we can use the exceptions process to handle some of the fail here | 21:14 |
| mestery | I'm good with the same dates as mikal has selected. | 21:14 |
| mikal | And learn from the experience | 21:14 |
| mestery | mikal: +1 | 21:14 |
| markwash | mikal: +1 | 21:14 |
| mikal | The only contentious point seems to be when we open K specs | 21:14 |
| therve | ttx, Smelling a great slogan :) | 21:14 |
| mikal | Which is somethign I'm a little uncomfortable with dictating too closesly given I might not be the K PTL | 21:15 |
| ttx | mestery: do you think one week between proposal and approval will let you review/approve stuff proposed before SPD? | 21:15 |
| mestery | For K specs, the neutron drivers team is going to start putting -2 on specs we know won't land in Juno. | 21:15 |
| mestery | ttx: It's a bit tight, but I like the shorter gap, it forces the issue in some cases. | 21:15 |
| dhellmann | For oslo, we're going to hold off on setting firm deadlines and judge submissions when they come. We aren't seeing a lot of specs now, and if something good comes in we might just approve it for K. We try to be in sync, but tend to run ahead of the other projects to allow syncing or adoption, so if we cut things off too early we're going to have huge bits of unused time in the schedule. | 21:15 |
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| mikal | mestery: for ones previously approved, or those in flight, or both? | 21:15 |
| ttx | so maybe it only makes sense for neutron and nova | 21:16 |
| mestery | mikal: In flight which are proposed but not approved, and new submissions after the SAD. | 21:16 |
| jgriffith | mikal: honestly my policy on that is when K opens up | 21:16 |
| ttx | they are the only ones with a huge backlog | 21:16 |
| therve | The spec deadline makes for a short calendar. That's like half of the year where you can't land specs | 21:16 |
| dolphm | mestery: like, -2 pending re-proposal against a k* directory? | 21:16 |
| mestery | dolphm: Correct. | 21:16 |
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| mikal | therve: well, for nova its about not distracting cores from reviewing patches at certain points in the cycle | 21:16 |
| mikal | We want to set the expectation that we're busy elsewhere | 21:16 |
| mestery | At the start of K, we'll wipe the specs repo clean and start fresh, at least that was my thinking. Things which were not approved need to be re-proposed. | 21:17 |
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| eglynn | why the -2 if there's a separate k* directory in the specs repo? | 21:17 |
| mikal | mestery: we talked about that too, we're also going to unmerge approved things which never had code proposed | 21:17 |
| jgriffith | mestery: _1 | 21:17 |
| dolphm | mestery: as long as things can land in the K dir during juno development, that sounds totally reasonable ++ | 21:17 |
| jgriffith | err.. +1 | 21:17 |
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| therve | mikal, I understand. It'd be nice to be able to say "your spec looks good, but you can only propose the patch in release+1" | 21:17 |
| therve | which blueprints allowed | 21:17 |
| jgriffith | dolphm: I think trying to plan out to K right now is sort of a waste of my time | 21:17 |
| mestery | eglynn: That's another way of doing it, but I'd like to hold off on adding hte K directory as long as possible, I tend to agree with mikal's reasoning on the distraction thing. | 21:17 |
| jgriffith | in terms of a spec at least | 21:17 |
| eglynn | mestery: fair enough | 21:18 |
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| mikal | People can always be writing their rst file in their homedir for a week or two | 21:18 |
| mikal | I don't think its a super big deal | 21:18 |
| mestery | mikal: Agreed | 21:18 |
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| dolphm | therve: s/propose/have considered for merging/ | 21:18 |
| ttx | jgriffith: what's cinder take on this ? You're hit with a lot of specs too | 21:18 |
| dolphm | therve: or seriously consider as a release blocker | 21:19 |
| jgriffith | ttx: I liked the two weeks out from submission freeze | 21:19 |
| jgriffith | ttx: and like I said, I'm inclined to ignore anything K related until midway through J3 | 21:19 |
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| therve | dolphm, I guess my question is if we could distinguish specs merged into master with specs approved | 21:19 |
| therve | Maybe that defeats the purpose | 21:19 |
| jgriffith | ttx: I alredy know there will be exceptions | 21:19 |
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| jgriffith | so I'd rather plan on it and make it "harder" after mid July | 21:20 |
| jgriffith | therve: merged are approved... I'm confused? | 21:20 |
| jgriffith | therve: you want a long term db to look at? | 21:20 |
| eglynn | jgriffith: merged in juno dir == approved, or? | 21:21 |
| jgriffith | eglynn: that just puts us backin the mess of LP IMO | 21:21 |
| therve | jgriffith, Yeah that's my point, we used to have more states with blueprints. | 21:21 |
| jgriffith | the beauty of the specs for me is tracking and organization as well as detail | 21:21 |
| ttx | OK, so it looks like only a few projects would use that | 21:21 |
| jgriffith | therve: and I think that was *bad* | 21:21 |
| ttx | I hear nova and neutron | 21:21 |
| eglynn | jgriffith: fair point, though the overhead of proposing/landing a specs patch sets the bar significantly higher? | 21:21 |
| jgriffith | therve: chaos... look at al the "zombie" BP's out there | 21:22 |
| jgriffith | eglynn: true | 21:22 |
| eglynn | (as opposed to a drive-by filing on LP) | 21:22 |
| therve | jgriffith, Well nova spec backlog doesn't look great to me :) | 21:22 |
| ttx | so i propose each project announces its own date and deadlines | 21:22 |
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| jgriffith | eglynn: but I'm not convinced with rapid pace of change etc it's worth my time to deal with things that are 3+ months out | 21:22 |
| mestery | ttx: +1 | 21:22 |
| eglynn | ttx: subsidiarity, me likee! :) | 21:22 |
| jgriffith | ttx: sigh | 21:22 |
| mikal | therve: I think its great | 21:22 |
| ttx | and we'll look at it at the end of the cycle and see if we try to make it converged next time or not | 21:22 |
| jgriffith | ttx: probably the right answer | 21:22 |
| eglynn | jgriffith: that's fair | 21:23 |
| therve | ttx, °1 | 21:23 |
| mikal | therve: we're being more honest about how much we think we can get done | 21:23 |
| jgriffith | but means I'll be taking some flack again :) | 21:23 |
| mikal | therve: and we're designing things before we argue in code reviews for the implementation or roll it back | 21:23 |
| ttx | jgriffith: blame nova for it ? | 21:23 |
| mikal | therve: _and_ we're finally letting operators have a say | 21:23 |
| jgriffith | ttx: my new motto ;) | 21:23 |
| mikal | I don't think its slower at all | 21:23 |
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| therve | mikal, Fair enough. Heat clearly doesn't have that problem, so it's hard to imagine being in your shoes | 21:23 |
| mikal | It just feels that way because we're setting people's expectations better | 21:23 |
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| jgriffith | eglynn: yeah.. part of this is I want to se how specs works out for a full ccle | 21:23 |
| jgriffith | cycle | 21:23 |
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| ttx | I don't think it's slower. We are building a longer pipeline, so it takes time before things are aligned to it properly | 21:24 |
| dolphm | ttx: as long as we keep all the dates in a single wiki page / etherpad or something, so projects that want to settle on a single date can do so? if projects have a reason to deviate, that seems fair... but less than ideal | 21:24 |
| jgriffith | ttx: +1 | 21:24 |
| ttx | but then I'd expect things will flow better IN the new pipeline | 21:24 |
| eglynn | jgriffith: yep, exactly, it's a learning process for all | 21:24 |
| jgriffith | the good thing I'm seeing is that specs actually lead to implemented code | 21:24 |
| ttx | with less wated effort overall | 21:24 |
| ttx | wasted* | 21:24 |
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| jgriffith | as opposed to willy-nilly bp's that never get acted on | 21:24 |
| ttx | dolphm: hmm, would you be interested in it ? | 21:25 |
| jgriffith | therve: eglynn actually... that's an interesting point maybe | 21:25 |
| jgriffith | therve: eglynn still submit a bp.... submit spec during window | 21:25 |
| eglynn | the devs have to start to see the pay-off from the process as well /methinks | 21:25 |
| ttx | I can document them all in the juno release schedule | 21:25 |
| jgriffith | spec controls targetting so I'm happy that way | 21:25 |
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| eglynn | (before they *fully* buy into it) | 21:25 |
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| ttx | if you keep me in the lop | 21:25 |
| ttx | loop* | 21:26 |
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| jgriffith | ttx: "lop" isn't that the sound I hear when my head falls off | 21:26 |
| ttx | no, that's "bop" | 21:26 |
| jgriffith | ha | 21:26 |
| dolphm | ttx: interested in deviating? | 21:26 |
| ttx | dolphm: no, interested in SPD/SAD in the first place | 21:27 |
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| dolphm | ttx: oh, yes. | 21:27 |
| ttx | oh ok. It felt like it was a nova-neutron discussion here | 21:27 |
| eglynn | so I thinking part of the documentation of this process should emphasize the *direct* benefits to devs | 21:27 |
| ttx | +cinder although I have difficulty to parse "I liked the two weeks out from submission freeze" | 21:27 |
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| eglynn | otherwise it appears as a Kafkaesque maze to some ;) | 21:28 |
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| ttx | eglynn: ok, will document them all | 21:28 |
| * ttx needs to docuemtn RequirementsFreeze anyway | 21:28 | |
| eglynn | ttx: thank you sir! | 21:28 |
| ttx | so i'll go on a wiki rampage | 21:28 |
| ttx | once they are all documented i'll ML thread the thing | 21:28 |
| * mestery gest out of ttx's way. | 21:28 | |
| eglynn | LOL :) | 21:28 |
| eglynn | excellent! | 21:29 |
| ttx | #action ttx to document SPD/SAD as optyional steps | 21:29 |
| jgriffith | ttx: sorry... to clarify freeze spec submit/approve 1-2 weeks out from feature freeze | 21:29 |
| ttx | #action ttx to then start a ML thread about proposed dates and potential convergence | 21:29 |
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| ttx | #action ttx to document resultig dates to the Juno release schedule page | 21:29 |
| jgriffith | to ease confusion I'm going to "blame" nova and do whatever mikal does :) | 21:29 |
| ttx | sounds like a plan | 21:30 |
| ttx | famous last words on this topic ? | 21:30 |
| dolphm | actually, we talked about a SAD for each *milestone* for keystone | 21:30 |
| mikal | LOL | 21:30 |
| mestery | dolphm: That's a lot of SADness. :) | 21:31 |
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| ttx | mestery: you said it | 21:31 |
| ttx | #topic sahara-to-horizon merge | 21:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "sahara-to-horizon merge (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:31 | |
| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: around? | 21:31 |
| dolphm | yeah, but making the pipeline longer means that i'm starting to think we should have shorter milestones, to facilitate smaller changes | 21:31 |
| ttx | david-lyle: around? | 21:31 |
| david-lyle | yup | 21:31 |
| annegent_ | there needs to be a blame mikal song like blame canada | 21:31 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, yup, I'm here | 21:31 |
| * ttx sets up the boxing cage | 21:31 | |
| eglynn | SAD is already taken as a TLA == "seasonal affective disorder" ;) | 21:31 |
| * mestery makes some popcorn. | 21:31 | |
| ttx | eglynn: awesome. | 21:31 |
| mikal | Heh | 21:32 |
| dolphm | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sahara/+spec/merge-sahara-dashboard-to-horizon | 21:32 |
| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: i'll let you introduce the topic | 21:32 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, okay | 21:32 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | so, the topic is to merge sahara-dashboard to the horizon | 21:32 |
| SergeyLukjanov | I believe we have a bp for horizon too | 21:33 |
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| * ttx resists a Launchpad blame | 21:33 | |
| SergeyLukjanov | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/horizon/+spec/merge-sahara-dashboard | 21:33 |
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| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: is that the list of proposed patches ? https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:bp/merge-sahara-dashboard,n,z | 21:34 |
| SergeyLukjanov | so, the current state is that all (or 90%) needed patches are under reviewf | 21:34 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, yup, I think it's a complete list | 21:35 |
| ttx | Was there progress on this since the last episode ? Like more patches posted, or some patches merged ? | 21:35 |
| SergeyLukjanov | https://review.openstack.org/#/q/horizon+comment:%22Sahara%22,n,z works good too | 21:35 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, one patch merged IIRC - client bindings | 21:35 |
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| ttx | david-lyle: so the main issue on your side is the size of the patch ? | 21:36 |
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| david-lyle | ttx: getting core focus on it | 21:36 |
| annegent_ | I want to raise a slight concern about how to document | 21:36 |
| annegent_ | horizon is core, sahara is not | 21:36 |
| SergeyLukjanov | there were a number of reviews for other patches and comments are resolved now, but the size of patches is very big, so, needs more iterations | 21:37 |
| david-lyle | I think that has been addressed | 21:37 |
| ttx | david-lyle: ok | 21:37 |
| ttx | annegent_: "core" ? | 21:37 |
| annegent_ | ttx: the docs mission scope is only for core | 21:37 |
| david-lyle | sahara is integrated | 21:37 |
| annegent_ | ttx: we try to get to integrated but don't promise | 21:37 |
| david-lyle | ah | 21:37 |
| ttx | annegent_: what definition of "core" are you using for that ? | 21:38 |
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| annegent_ | just saying it makes for a bit of doc difficulty across "how do I install OpenStack" | 21:38 |
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| annegent_ | ttx: the one in effect when we made our mission statement in july 2013 | 21:38 |
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| annegent_ | it's a known difficulty; just noting it here for others to note as a concern | 21:38 |
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| ttx | annegent_: hmm, not sure what that would include :) | 21:38 |
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| ttx | anyway, I see your point | 21:39 |
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| therve | david-lyle, Sorry if I say something dumb, but would it be possible for horizon to have integration points (plugins) so that sahara is in horizon the service but not horizon the code base? | 21:39 |
| ttx | how does that influence the discussion here ? | 21:39 |
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| ttx | integrated projects must be.. well.... integrated | 21:39 |
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| jogo_ | Heat is not core either | 21:39 |
| annegent_ | they can be integrated but we're not promising docs | 21:39 |
| ttx | so sahara dashboard must be in horizon | 21:40 |
| eglynn | therve: yeah out-of-tree dashboards, that's what I was thinking also | 21:40 |
| annegent_ | and by we I mean the doc team itself -- the horizon and sahara team are welcome to figure it out | 21:40 |
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| david-lyle | therve, we have a plugin mechanism and that's how the sahara dashboard was created, but if it's not in Horizon it becomes more difficult to maintain in the long run | 21:40 |
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| ttx | eglynn: that already exists, there is a sahara-dashboard | 21:40 |
| therve | That problem is meant to happen again, with solum for example | 21:40 |
| SergeyLukjanov | therve, it's already done as sahara-dashboard project and we're moving now it into the horizon | 21:40 |
| annegent_ | jogo_: sure but we (docs team) are working with them on integration in the user guide this cycle, it's just a few cycles later than their first integrated release | 21:40 |
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| ttx | it's supposed to be integrated within horizon now that sahara is integrated | 21:41 |
| eglynn | ttx: I guess the question is, why doesn't that suffice? | 21:41 |
| eglynn | ttx: (... to meet the integartion requirements?) | 21:41 |
| ttx | eglynn: because horizon ships with dashboard integration for all the other integrated buts | 21:41 |
| ttx | bits* | 21:41 |
| therve | david-lyle, SergeyLukjanov: Okay. I feel that if we could keep things smaller we should, but I understand maintenance would be easier this way | 21:41 |
| ttx | so it's a "first cycle requirement" to get your dashboard plugin into horizon mainline | 21:42 |
| ttx | it neevr was an issue before | 21:42 |
| jogo_ | annegent_: ahh so core first | 21:42 |
| david-lyle | There shouldn't be a reason we can't merge Sahara, it just takes time to integrate an 8k loc dashboard even if already existant | 21:42 |
| annegent_ | jogo_: right | 21:42 |
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| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: you feel like it's not going fast enough for a merge in Juno ? | 21:43 |
| annegent_ | ttx: david-lyle: any reason sahara can't be in a separate repo with separate reviewers under the Dashboard program? | 21:43 |
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| annegent_ | I might not understand the technical limits | 21:43 |
| eglynn | k, so it seems that evolving the dashboard for incubating proects *within* horizon somehow would avoid the need for a mega-merge post-integration? | 21:43 |
| therve | annegent_, From what we're talking, it's mostly a maintenance problem | 21:43 |
| ttx | annegent_: all the other integrated bits are in horizon repo, so why would we specialcase sahara ? | 21:43 |
| eglynn | incubating *projects | 21:43 |
| david-lyle | annegent_: we could take that approach, integration testing becomes more involved | 21:43 |
| annegent_ | ttx: because it's the biggest so far? | 21:44 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, it's difficult to say now - all patches are on review, but /me and david-lyle think that it could be done in time for juno | 21:44 |
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| dhellmann | yeah, making changes to the APIs the dashboards use is harder if they're in separate repos, because you have to figure out how to stage the changes and make all of them continue to work instead of doing it all in one patch | 21:44 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, there is already a huge work done on adjusting some parts for the whole chain of changes | 21:44 |
| annegent_ | dhellmann: ouch yeah then | 21:44 |
| david-lyle | we could do that with all service panels, but as soon as they become interdependent we get into troubled waters | 21:44 |
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| devananda | this discussion sounds similar to ironic's nova virt driver "prepare to merge during incubation" discussion. | 21:44 |
| devananda | also worth noting that horizon will face the same intergration for an ironic dashboard soon | 21:45 |
| eglynn | big-bang merge of pre-existing out-of-tree dashboard post-integration inevitably leads to a 8 KLOC set of patches festering on gerrit | 21:45 |
| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: OK, not sure we can do to help you guys sort it out. Anything you need from us? | 21:45 |
| eglynn | what if horizon had an incubation sandbox? | 21:45 |
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| therve | dhellmann, I guess one question would be if horizon shouldn't provide stable APIs for allowing custom integration | 21:46 |
| david-lyle | we've pulled in the tuskar-ui repo because of the scope and size of that | 21:46 |
| dhellmann | yeah, the policy in oslo has shifted to taking the first version of something like that as-is and then interating | 21:46 |
| ttx | eglynn: it's a bit of the same problem with nova ironic driver | 21:46 |
| eglynn | in-tree, then post-intregation could be just a matter of promoting out of a contrib area | 21:46 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, I think nope, I've added this point to agenda as we agreed with you to raise this topic every several weeks to monitor status | 21:46 |
| eglynn | ttx: fair point | 21:46 |
| ttx | you basically want to review in the original repo and just merge it all | 21:46 |
| dhellmann | therve: I'd love it if they did, since I want to add some dashboards for Dreamhost, but if they don't now we can't block sahara on that | 21:46 |
| david-lyle | so Horizon program has horizon and tuskar-ui repos | 21:46 |
| devananda | ttx: review code in antoher repo has not worked for the nova.virt.ironic driver at all | 21:46 |
| devananda | ttx: for that that's worth | 21:46 |
| therve | eglynn, We somewhat do that in Heat for resources | 21:46 |
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| eglynn | therve: interesting ... does the approach work? | 21:47 |
| ttx | devananda: yes, "you want" wasn't meant as a recommendation :) | 21:47 |
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| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: ok | 21:47 |
| therve | eglynn, I think so? We run the tests as part of everything else, but don't install the contrib resources by default. Obviously the amount of code is smaller. | 21:47 |
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| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: From a release management perspective, i can only reiterate that having dashboard functionality for integrated projects is high on the release priority list | 21:48 |
| eglynn | therve: smaller and also perhaps most "testable"? | 21:48 |
| therve | eglynn, Possibly yeah | 21:48 |
| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: so yes, we can follow up regularly | 21:48 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, ack | 21:48 |
| david-lyle | ttx: I think Horizon will be able to integrate the dashboard in J-2 | 21:48 |
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| ttx | david-lyle: I thin k that's a good target. We have some room for overflowing to early J3 that way | 21:49 |
| SergeyLukjanov | david-lyle, it'll be awesome - we'll have some time to implement dashboard features | 21:49 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, ++ | 21:49 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 21:49 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:49 | |
| ttx | We can continue discussing better options to integrate 8K lines of code in one shot, or discuss anything else | 21:50 |
| lifeless | gulp | 21:50 |
| ttx | well, not one shot :) | 21:50 |
| ttx | but it's true that it will bite us again | 21:50 |
| * dhellmann puts down his shot of whiskey | 21:50 | |
| david-lyle | ideally what I think would help is better inclusion of the Horizon team as part of UI development in incubated projects, the problem of course being resource constraint, pay me now or pay me later I suppose | 21:51 |
| eglynn | any opinions on the usefulness or otherwise of the PTL webinars? | 21:51 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, yeah, it'll happens again ~ each cycle | 21:51 |
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| * eglynn was disappointed not a single question from the floor at the cinder/ceilo webinar earlier today | 21:51 | |
| ttx | david-lyle: sahara had dashboards already developed -- did that actually help or hurt ? I can see that development goes faster but review goes slower ? | 21:52 |
| dhellmann | eglynn: how many people were listening live? I haven't done mine yet. | 21:52 |
| mikal | eglynn: do we have numbers on if people actually attend them? | 21:52 |
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| ttx | eglynn: dunno, that will be my first. Not sure what to expect | 21:52 |
| eglynn | dhellmann: dunno, I wasn't on the meetingburner (just phone + slides on a tablet) | 21:52 |
| eglynn | mikal: apparently more traffic on the youtube recording after the fact | 21:53 |
| david-lyle | ttx: it certainly helps, but now horizon core is looking at this thing cold and not watching it come together. quick ramp up and try to make sure it's consistent with the rest of Horizon | 21:53 |
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| mestery | eglynn: How long did you get to present? I | 21:53 |
| eglynn | mikal: ... otherwise relatively small attendence (10s as opposed to 100s) | 21:53 |
| mestery | eglynn: I'm up Thursday :) | 21:53 |
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| david-lyle | so far it looks like it was done well, but I haven't gotten to the end yet | 21:53 |
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| david-lyle | don't ruin it for me | 21:53 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, david-lyle, for example, in sahara, we've started dev. of both server side and dashboard in one day and the first version of dashboard has been released right after the first working version of server side | 21:53 |
| eglynn | mestery: 20 mins, I went overtime tho' | 21:53 |
| mestery | eglynn: :) | 21:53 |
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| david-lyle | ttx: there's now way we would have been able to reproduce in Juno the same degree of API coverage starting from scratch | 21:54 |
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| ttx | david-lyle: yeah. Ican see benefits to both approaches | 21:55 |
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| ttx | Anything else, anyone ? | 21:55 |
| devananda | david-lyle: given this context, any thoughts or suggestions w.r.t. tuskar / ironic UI integration next cycle? | 21:55 |
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| david-lyle | devananda: getting Horizon core looking at the patches now or designs at least would aid the adoption process | 21:56 |
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| devananda | david-lyle: ack | 21:57 |
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| ttx | ok, looks like that clsoes it | 21:59 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 24 21:59:04 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-06-24-21.05.html | 21:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-06-24-21.05.txt | 21:59 |
| ttx | thanks everyone! | 21:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2014/project.2014-06-24-21.05.log.html | 21:59 |
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| therve | Thanks! | 21:59 |
| mestery | Thanks ttx! | 21:59 |
| eglynn | good night folks! | 21:59 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, thx | 22:00 |
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