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| * Sam-I-Am too | 02:59 | |
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| Loquacities | heya everyone | 03:00 |
|---|---|---|
| Sam-I-Am | howdy | 03:00 |
| fifieldt | hi Loquacities | 03:00 |
| Loquacities | shall we get started? | 03:00 |
| Loquacities | #startmeeting DocTeamMeeting | 03:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 17 03:00:58 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is Loquacities. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 03:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 03:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: DocTeamMeeting)" | 03:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'docteammeeting' | 03:01 |
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| Loquacities | agenda is here: | 03:01 |
| Loquacities | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/DocTeamMeeting#Agenda_for_next_meeting | 03:01 |
| Loquacities | #topic Action items from the last meeting | 03:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Action items from the last meeting (Meeting topic: DocTeamMeeting)" | 03:01 | |
| Loquacities | chandankumar to update https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/HowTo#Reviewing_Documentation with note about WIP | 03:02 |
| Loquacities | chandankumar isn't up yet, by the looks, so we can probably move right on | 03:02 |
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| fifieldt | welcome NickChase | 03:02 |
| Loquacities | #topic Monthly Google Hangout starting Jan 2014 | 03:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Monthly Google Hangout starting Jan 2014 (Meeting topic: DocTeamMeeting)" | 03:03 | |
| Loquacities | anne has agreed to start running these monthly, now | 03:03 |
| Loquacities | starting in jan | 03:03 |
| Loquacities | any comments on that? | 03:03 |
| Sam-I-Am | sounds like a great idea | 03:03 |
| Loquacities | yeah, everyone seems very positive about it :) | 03:04 |
| fifieldt | it's continuing in line with our previous one, pretty much, isn;t it? | 03:04 |
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| fifieldt | which was pretty cool | 03:04 |
| Loquacities | yep, pretty much | 03:04 |
| fifieldt | cool, it's a good idea :) | 03:04 |
| Loquacities | also, the office hours are officially dead now | 03:04 |
| slong | sorry, forgot to switch | 03:04 |
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| Loquacities | #topic Operations Guide developmental edit | 03:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Operations Guide developmental edit (Meeting topic: DocTeamMeeting)" | 03:04 | |
| Loquacities | i'm going to c&p some stuff from anne from the last meeting on this topic ... | 03:05 |
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| fifieldt | ta | 03:05 |
| Loquacities | 14:06:07 <annegentle> As most of you probably know, the Ops Guide is being edited by O'Reilly | 03:05 |
| Loquacities | 14:06:34 <annegentle> We have our first set of comments, mostly high level, and next week we'll have annotaed PDFs of the first couple of chapters | 03:05 |
| Loquacities | 14:06:43 <annegentle> I can't spell annotated apparently | 03:05 |
| Loquacities | 14:07:14 <annegentle> then, by mid-January, we'll have edits of the entire book, and at the end of January we're doing a mini sprint in Boston with the original authors | 03:05 |
| Loquacities | 14:07:46 <nermina> nice | 03:05 |
| Loquacities | 14:07:49 <annegentle> I think Brian, the O'Reilly editor, can meet us those days since they're nearby | 03:05 |
| Loquacities | 14:08:48 <annegentle> Some of the tasks: expand the preface to situate the Ops Guide in relation to the other guides, an intro chapter about OpenStack showing a high-level overview and emphasizing how components work together | 03:05 |
| Loquacities | 14:10:43 <annegentle> Another interesting comment we're working through is that the book contains tactics but not a lot of strategy | 03:06 |
| Loquacities | 14:10:53 <annegentle> My favorite is that it is quite "clean" heh | 03:06 |
| Loquacities | 14:11:12 <annegentle> So we'll answer questions like, how does the cloud controller make your job easier? what do you need to be concerned about? | 03:06 |
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| Loquacities | i think that covers the highlights | 03:06 |
| nermina | hi all | 03:06 |
| Loquacities | any comments on that? | 03:06 |
| Loquacities | hey nermina | 03:06 |
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| slong | hi nermina | 03:06 |
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| slong | Loquacities, | 03:06 |
| slong | just a question about timing for new info going in. Have a contributor. | 03:07 |
| sgordon | Loquacities, insert misgivings about annotated PDFs here | 03:07 |
| sgordon | ;) | 03:07 |
| Loquacities | sgordon: they're just for the review AIUI, what's the concern? | 03:07 |
| Loquacities | slong: i'm fairly certain we can't get any real new content into it at this stage | 03:07 |
| Loquacities | but i'm happy to chase that up with anne | 03:07 |
| Loquacities | can you drop me an email? | 03:08 |
| slong | Ok, will wait until after the January sprint perhaps. | 03:08 |
| fifieldt | do we know what kind of content? | 03:08 |
| sgordon | Loquacities, having already been through the process of actioning such a review of one of the guides in the past i feel for whoever ends up doing the work | 03:08 |
| Loquacities | slong: i think that would be wise | 03:08 |
| Loquacities | sgordon: ah, fair enough | 03:08 |
| Loquacities | concern noted, in that case ;) | 03:08 |
| slong | fifieldt, rhel architecture, since it's pretty ubuntu-centric. | 03:08 |
| fifieldt | oh | 03:08 |
| fifieldt | right | 03:08 |
| slong | Just would like to get it in before the next release. | 03:09 |
| Loquacities | slong: it's needed, for sure | 03:09 |
| fifieldt | do we know operators who have many months of experience running a production openstack cloud on rhel? | 03:09 |
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| sgordon | fifieldt, is that a joke? | 03:09 |
| sgordon | yes | 03:09 |
| Loquacities | lol | 03:09 |
| sgordon | that was what the mailing list thread was about, we were asked to identify someone | 03:10 |
| slong | The contributor is one such, Graeme Gillies (if I spelled it right). | 03:10 |
| slong | He's volunteered to take a look. | 03:10 |
| Loquacities | nice | 03:10 |
| fifieldt | doesn't look like a cloud operator to me ... ? | 03:10 |
| sgordon | fifieldt, how do you figure | 03:10 |
| fifieldt | linkedin ? | 03:11 |
| sgordon | he operates our internal openstack cloud | 03:11 |
| fifieldt | a lab cloud, then | 03:11 |
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| sgordon | fifieldt, it's not a lab cloud | 03:11 |
| Loquacities | it's production | 03:11 |
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| fifieldt | cool, well maybe writing up a description of that for the examples in the tail end of the book would be a good start | 03:12 |
| Loquacities | but it's not like he's the only one, either | 03:12 |
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| slong | Just have to start somewhere. | 03:12 |
| fifieldt | of course | 03:12 |
| fifieldt | just want to avoid "vendor" labels | 03:12 |
| Loquacities | let's chat to anne about late additions | 03:12 |
| slong | Definitely. | 03:12 |
| Loquacities | ok, moving on | 03:12 |
| sgordon | fifieldt, given the way the book was set up that is a tad rich ;) | 03:12 |
| Loquacities | #topic Doc core can now set a patch to WIP | 03:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Doc core can now set a patch to WIP (Meeting topic: DocTeamMeeting)" | 03:13 | |
| fifieldt | I'd be interested in knowing more sgordon, but let's do that in pm channel :) | 03:13 |
| Loquacities | 14:13:03 <annegentle> This is just a public service reminder as a new part of our review process | 03:13 |
| Loquacities | 14:14:03 <annegentle> Anyone up for updating the wiki with the new ability to set a patch as WIP? | 03:13 |
| Loquacities | 14:14:19 <annegentle> I think it goes in https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/HowTo#Reviewing_Documentation | 03:13 |
| sgordon | i think the open question here is, when do we want to use this facility | 03:13 |
| Loquacities | so it doesn't look as though that's been updated yet | 03:14 |
| Loquacities | sgordon: i confess, i'm not across this issue | 03:14 |
| sgordon | gerrit will automatically abandon a patch that has been minused and not touched for two weeks | 03:14 |
| sgordon | but we need to determine what makes a patch something we want to push to WIP | 03:14 |
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| fifieldt | I have an example of a -core using WIP: | 03:14 |
| fifieldt | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/61898/ | 03:14 |
| fifieldt | see this terrible patch and the change to WIP not done by mde | 03:14 |
| fifieldt | me* | 03:14 |
| Loquacities | hrm, ok | 03:15 |
| Loquacities | seems sane | 03:15 |
| Loquacities | no other comments on that? | 03:16 |
| Sam-I-Am | well, sort of... | 03:16 |
| Loquacities | go ahead | 03:16 |
| slong | There's nothing at all about WIP in the HowTo. Should be added for the normal user as well,or? | 03:17 |
| Sam-I-Am | i noticed that the associated launchpad bug will change to 'in progress' but only after i submit something for review. would this set some sort of similar flag there? | 03:17 |
| Loquacities | yeah, good point slong | 03:17 |
| Loquacities | the bug changes in response to the Partial-Bug flag in the commit message | 03:18 |
| Loquacities | slong: it's probably worth mentioning that core is able to do this | 03:18 |
| slong | Yes, both,would say. | 03:18 |
| Loquacities | yep | 03:18 |
| slong | Didn't know to use WIP until fifieldt clued me in. | 03:18 |
| Loquacities | are you volunteering to update that, slong? ;) | 03:19 |
| fifieldt | yeah, would be good to put something in | 03:19 |
| slong | On largish commits... | 03:19 |
| fifieldt | encouraging people to put stuff "up early" | 03:19 |
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| slong | Sure, but might have to wait a bit. | 03:20 |
| sgordon | you can submit your own changes as WIP | 03:20 |
| Loquacities | slong: thanks | 03:20 |
| Loquacities | #action slong to update the HowTo to include WIP info | 03:20 |
| Loquacities | #topic Doc tools update - openstack-doc-tools repository | 03:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Doc tools update - openstack-doc-tools repository (Meeting topic: DocTeamMeeting)" | 03:21 | |
| * slong can never tell when sgordon is pulling a funny | 03:21 | |
| Loquacities | 14:15:54 <annegentle> Andreas has been working steadily at the new repo setup | 03:22 |
| Loquacities | 14:16:10 <annegentle> Here's a link to the review queue | 03:22 |
| Loquacities | 14:16:12 <annegentle> #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/openstack-doc-tools,n,z | 03:22 |
| Loquacities | 14:17:11 <annegentle> He's also working through the right way to get consistent gate checks on all the docs repos | 03:22 |
| Loquacities | 14:17:43 <annegentle> This move also helps with building translated documents | 03:22 |
| Loquacities | there was no further comment in last week's meeting | 03:22 |
| Loquacities | any comment from this side of the globe? | 03:22 |
| Loquacities | i'll take that as a no | 03:22 |
| Loquacities | #topic Doc Bug Day Dec 20 | 03:22 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Doc Bug Day Dec 20 (Meeting topic: DocTeamMeeting)" | 03:22 | |
| Loquacities | that's this friday, folks | 03:23 |
| fifieldt | yay :) | 03:23 |
| fifieldt | can I ask someone in .au to send a reminder when they wake up | 03:23 |
| fifieldt | to start the day | 03:23 |
| slong | 4am work for you? | 03:23 |
| Sam-I-Am | 00 utc to 00 utc? | 03:23 |
| Sam-I-Am | i should plan to be up 24 hours... | 03:23 |
| fifieldt | lol, nice early start there slong :D | 03:24 |
| Loquacities | fifieldt: i can try and make sure i put something in the irc chan in our tz, if you like | 03:24 |
| fifieldt | I'm thinking also the mailing list | 03:24 |
| fifieldt | just replying to the post I have there | 03:24 |
| Loquacities | oh, that's a good idea too | 03:24 |
| Loquacities | it might also be a good idea to make some noise the day before, as well | 03:24 |
| Loquacities | just so people don't forget | 03:24 |
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| Loquacities | ok, that's all i have on the agenda | 03:25 |
| Loquacities | #topic Open discussion | 03:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: DocTeamMeeting)" | 03:25 | |
| Sam-I-Am | so whats the game plan for these sprints? | 03:25 |
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| Loquacities | for the doc bug day? | 03:25 |
| Sam-I-Am | yeah | 03:25 |
| Loquacities | just do as many bugs as you can :) | 03:25 |
| Sam-I-Am | any priorities? heat? age? | 03:26 |
| Loquacities | docs! | 03:26 |
| Loquacities | ;) | 03:26 |
| fifieldt | :D | 03:26 |
| Sam-I-Am | what about reviewing? leave that until later? | 03:26 |
| Loquacities | just get in an do what you can | 03:26 |
| Loquacities | and* | 03:27 |
| Loquacities | good question | 03:27 |
| Loquacities | what do you think fifieldt? | 03:27 |
| Sam-I-Am | also wondering about working on the same thing someone else is working on | 03:27 |
| fifieldt | I think I'll switch between both reviewing and writing | 03:27 |
| fifieldt | make sure you assign yourself straight away | 03:28 |
| fifieldt | don't start writing until you do | 03:28 |
| Loquacities | fifieldt: yeah, i had vague plans of the same thing | 03:28 |
| Loquacities | and yes, change the bug owner to yourself before you start | 03:28 |
| Sam-I-Am | sure. i've had them stolen before... | 03:28 |
| fifieldt | and triage before the day if you get a chance | 03:28 |
| Loquacities | and make sure you hit refresh on the bug before you take it, too | 03:28 |
| Sam-I-Am | also found cases of similar bugs being worked on by multiple people at the same time | 03:29 |
| Loquacities | yep, it happens | 03:29 |
| Sam-I-Am | Loquacities: is there any way to set 'in progress' in launchpad before the first submission for review? | 03:29 |
| Loquacities | yes, you can just change the status of the bug | 03:29 |
| Sam-I-Am | i dont think i can triage anything in lp | 03:30 |
| fifieldt | yes, all users have this feature | 03:30 |
| Loquacities | but assigning it to yourself is the best way to indicate that you're working on it | 03:30 |
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| Sam-I-Am | ok, i see now :) | 03:30 |
| Loquacities | awesome | 03:30 |
| Loquacities | any other business? | 03:30 |
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| Loquacities | oh, before i close the meeting, i wanted to reiterate anne's comment about the docs meeting ... | 03:31 |
| Loquacities | no one is expected to attend a docs meeting that is outside of their timezone | 03:32 |
| Loquacities | two a month is plenty, so hopefully this mechanism of alternating each week will work for that | 03:32 |
| nermina | i'm just online all the time | 03:33 |
| Sam-I-Am | this is way outside of my time zone, but more convenient | 03:33 |
| Loquacities | nermina: sleep is for the weak ;) | 03:33 |
| slong | :D nermina, you work slug | 03:33 |
| Loquacities | Sam-I-Am: whatever tz works for you is fine :) | 03:33 |
| nermina | it's overrated | 03:33 |
| Loquacities | ok, that's it folks ... | 03:33 |
| Loquacities | #endmeeting | 03:33 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 03:33 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 17 03:33:47 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 03:33 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docteammeeting/2013/docteammeeting.2013-12-17-03.00.html | 03:33 |
| Sam-I-Am | one day i hope to fix bugs in my sleep | 03:33 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docteammeeting/2013/docteammeeting.2013-12-17-03.00.txt | 03:33 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docteammeeting/2013/docteammeeting.2013-12-17-03.00.log.html | 03:33 |
| Loquacities | thanks everyone :) | 03:34 |
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| fifieldt | cheers Loquacities | 03:34 |
| Sam-I-Am | thanks! | 03:34 |
| nermina | thanks | 03:34 |
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| bauzas | o/ | 09:58 |
| DinaBelova | o/ | 09:59 |
| bauzas | DinaBelova: you have 50 secs for opening the meeting :p | 09:59 |
| SergeyLukjanov | o/ | 09:59 |
| DinaBelova | #startmeeting climate | 09:59 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 17 09:59:39 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is DinaBelova. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 09:59 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 09:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: climate)" | 09:59 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'climate' | 09:59 |
| *** Nikolay_1t has joined #openstack-meeting | 09:59 | |
| Nikolay_1t | hola | 09:59 |
| bauzas | o/ | 09:59 |
| bauzas | (again :D) | 10:00 |
| Nikolay_1t | yeap | 10:00 |
| DinaBelova | Me and Sergey are also here | 10:00 |
| DinaBelova | f_rossigneux_, scroiset_? | 10:00 |
| f_rossigneux_ | Hi | 10:00 |
| DinaBelova | Ok, nice | 10:00 |
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| DinaBelova | scroiset_, are you here? | 10:00 |
| bauzas | scroiset is still on paternity leave :) | 10:00 |
| DinaBelova | Ok, forgot about it | 10:01 |
| DinaBelova | let's start then | 10:01 |
| bauzas | sure | 10:01 |
| DinaBelova | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Climate#Agenda_for_December_17_2013 | 10:01 |
| DinaBelova | it's our agenda | 10:01 |
| DinaBelova | for today | 10:01 |
| bauzas | pretty busy agenda :) | 10:01 |
| bauzas | we have to be quick :) | 10:01 |
| DinaBelova | #topic Action items from the last meeting + reviews queries | 10:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Action items from the last meeting + reviews queries (Meeting topic: climate)" | 10:01 | |
| bauzas | esp. there are quite chatty topics | 10:01 |
| DinaBelova | As for the actioan items from last session | 10:02 |
| DinaBelova | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/climate/2013/climate.2013-12-09-20.01.html | 10:02 |
| DinaBelova | Let's move through them quickly | 10:02 |
| DinaBelova | Nick, you had two of them | 10:02 |
| bauzas | I can't get the webpage, so I will only speak by mind | 10:02 |
| DinaBelova | bauzas, ok | 10:03 |
| DinaBelova | Nikolay_1t, as I see you have delivered new patchsets as discussed | 10:03 |
| DinaBelova | great | 10:03 |
| Nikolay_1t | yeap | 10:03 |
| bauzas | ok, any reviews needed ? | 10:03 |
| Nikolay_1t | and also for vm_plugin | 10:03 |
| DinaBelova | As for my action item, I also reviewed it https://review.openstack.org/#/c/57200/ | 10:03 |
| bauzas | saw it | 10:03 |
| Nikolay_1t | bauzas: yes, please | 10:03 |
| bauzas | ok, which ones to be prioritized ? | 10:04 |
| Nikolay_1t | today we'll test all this stuff about vms | 10:04 |
| Nikolay_1t | well | 10:04 |
| bauzas | all of them ? :D | 10:04 |
| DinaBelova | bauzas, they are connected with each other | 10:04 |
| Nikolay_1t | you were interested in openstack utils | 10:04 |
| bauzas | sure, will do again | 10:04 |
| DinaBelova | the last won't work without first two :) | 10:04 |
| bauzas | my concern is just about time :) | 10:04 |
| DinaBelova | bauzas, they all are needed for the release 0.1 | 10:05 |
| bauzas | because I will be on holidays starting end of this week, until Jan 4 | 10:05 |
| DinaBelova | bauzas, we need to try review all of them | 10:05 |
| DinaBelova | as yours ones | 10:05 |
| Nikolay_1t | utils-->trust-->plugin | 10:05 |
| bauzas | ok, will do | 10:05 |
| DinaBelova | because in the other case we need to postpone release | 10:05 |
| bauzas | yup, that's something we need to discuss afterwards | 10:06 |
| SergeyLukjanov | due to the holidays in FR and RU it sounds impossible to release 0.1 before the NY | 10:06 |
| DinaBelova | bauzas, you had two action items | 10:06 |
| DinaBelova | SergeyLukjanov, looks so for me too | 10:06 |
| SergeyLukjanov | so, it sounds reasonable to move release to the mid-end Jan | 10:06 |
| DinaBelova | ... | 10:06 |
| Nikolay_1t | ... | 10:06 |
| bauzas | what are your vacancies ? | 10:06 |
| DinaBelova | SergeyLukjanov, maybe that's a good point | 10:06 |
| SergeyLukjanov | me and Dina have 2w vacations around the NY | 10:07 |
| bauzas | ok, let's discuss that on the next topic item | 10:07 |
| DinaBelova | ok | 10:07 |
| bauzas | so for my action items | 10:07 |
| DinaBelova | bauzas, you have two of them | 10:07 |
| bauzas | I had to fix a blueprint | 10:07 |
| bauzas | it's done | 10:07 |
| DinaBelova | great | 10:07 |
| bauzas | sorry, can't give you the link :( | 10:07 |
| DinaBelova | the next one was Agree on delivery date | 10:07 |
| DinaBelova | don't worry, we'll find it | 10:08 |
| bauzas | yup, and as said, we're focusing on delivering the merge code by this week | 10:08 |
| DinaBelova | the second one was about when you | 10:08 |
| DinaBelova | ... will have all needed for hosts reservation implemented | 10:08 |
| bauzas | so I would say the prototype would be there, but it would still require reviews | 10:08 |
| DinaBelova | bauzas, ok, nice | 10:08 |
| DinaBelova | we have the folowing open reviews now | 10:09 |
| DinaBelova | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:stackforge/climate,n,z | 10:09 |
| DinaBelova | changes by Nikolay_1t are essential for the VM reservation | 10:09 |
| bauzas | we're still missing a Climate filter for hosts reservations, but that's only for preventing other requests to be spawn on the hosts | 10:10 |
| bauzas | and we also need to hack the client | 10:10 |
| DinaBelova | and we have 3 changes by bauzas and one by f_rossigneux_ | 10:10 |
| DinaBelova | bauzas, as for client | 10:10 |
| DinaBelova | I propose to merge first commit | 10:10 |
| DinaBelova | after some testing | 10:10 |
| DinaBelova | because we have large patchset really... | 10:10 |
| bauzas | sure | 10:10 |
| DinaBelova | too large... | 10:11 |
| bauzas | which one is huge ? | 10:11 |
| * SergeyLukjanov thinking about the pros/cons of weekly reviews sync | 10:11 | |
| bauzas | client CR ? | 10:11 |
| DinaBelova | in climate it's Francois's one | 10:11 |
| DinaBelova | and in client it's my | 10:11 |
| DinaBelova | I'll try to find way of splitting for both of them | 10:11 |
| DinaBelova | I think we should move to next topic | 10:12 |
| bauzas | sorry, can't get the point | 10:12 |
| DinaBelova | bauzas, they are too huge to be quick reviewed | 10:12 |
| bauzas | ah ok | 10:12 |
| DinaBelova | I think we should move to next topic, because we do not have much time | 10:12 |
| f_rossigneux_ | My patchet could be splitted in two parts: the reservation plugin and the reservation algos. | 10:12 |
| DinaBelova | f_rossigneux_, would be nice if you'll do it | 10:12 |
| bauzas | Host Admin Manager and Physical Host Reservation are the only ones scoped for 0.1 | 10:13 |
| DinaBelova | because it's almost impossible to review huve amount of code quickly | 10:13 |
| bauzas | there will be a 3rd one | 10:13 |
| DinaBelova | huge* | 10:13 |
| DinaBelova | bauzas, ok | 10:13 |
| bauzas | the review will be the merge of all the code | 10:13 |
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| DinaBelova | bauzas, can't get your point | 10:13 |
| bauzas | sorry | 10:14 |
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| bauzas | I will provide another CR for merging both Francois and mine' code | 10:14 |
| DinaBelova | hm... | 10:14 |
| DinaBelova | they are quite big | 10:14 |
| DinaBelova | themselves | 10:14 |
| bauzas | yup | 10:14 |
| DinaBelova | if there is possibility to stay for them separated | 10:15 |
| bauzas | yep | 10:15 |
| DinaBelova | it would be nice | 10:15 |
| DinaBelova | to review them in more comfortable way | 10:15 |
| DinaBelova | ok? | 10:15 |
| DinaBelova | I think we have discussed also the second topic somehow :) | 10:15 |
| bauzas | that's why I'm doing a merging CR, only for managing the few discrepancies | 10:15 |
| bauzas | but let's discuss that offline | 10:15 |
| DinaBelova | ok | 10:15 |
| bauzas | because the automatic merge is failing on some patches | 10:16 |
| DinaBelova | I think we may move to the Openstack new Program or not? | 10:16 |
| DinaBelova | because the second topic was also discussed | 10:16 |
| DinaBelova | Is that ok for you? | 10:16 |
| bauzas | which date do we plan ? | 10:16 |
| SergeyLukjanov | Jan 21/24 should work | 10:16 |
| DinaBelova | bauzas, I think that should be second half of the Jan | 10:17 |
| bauzas | agree | 10:17 |
| DinaBelova | because of all these holidays | 10:17 |
| DinaBelova | ok | 10:17 |
| SergeyLukjanov | 21/23 | 10:17 |
| bauzas | ok | 10:17 |
| bauzas | DinaBelova: could you please raise that point ? | 10:17 |
| DinaBelova | #agreed New release date Jan 21/23 | 10:17 |
| DinaBelova | ok | 10:17 |
| SergeyLukjanov | %(meeting_chair) please add info item | 10:17 |
| SergeyLukjanov | see it ;) | 10:17 |
| DinaBelova | let's move to the Openstack new Program or not? https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/NewPrograms | 10:18 |
| DinaBelova | ok? | 10:18 |
| SergeyLukjanov | yup | 10:18 |
| bauzas | sure, new topic ? | 10:18 |
| bauzas | : | 10:18 |
| DinaBelova | #topic Openstack new Program or not? https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/NewPrograms | 10:18 |
| bauzas | :D | 10:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Openstack new Program or not? https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/NewPrograms (Meeting topic: climate)" | 10:18 | |
| DinaBelova | ok, as we want to be incubated somehow | 10:18 |
| DinaBelova | we need to think about our program | 10:18 |
| bauzas | so, I don't feel quite comfortable with this | 10:18 |
| DinaBelova | there are some existing ones | 10:18 |
| DinaBelova | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Programs | 10:18 |
| bauzas | that's something which is unclear, even for TC | 10:18 |
| bauzas | we are a new team | 10:19 |
| SergeyLukjanov | it looks like there is now existing program fully compatible with project's scope/plans | 10:19 |
| bauzas | s/now/no ? | 10:19 |
| DinaBelova | yep | 10:19 |
| DinaBelova | *no* | 10:19 |
| SergeyLukjanov | bauzas, yes | 10:19 |
| SergeyLukjanov | there is no such program | 10:19 |
| DinaBelova | So I propose to heve new program like "Resource Reservation" | 10:19 |
| DinaBelova | or something like this | 10:19 |
| SergeyLukjanov | or just reservations | 10:20 |
| bauzas | if we agree with that, we would need to ask for a mission statement | 10:20 |
| DinaBelova | SergeyLukjanov, yes | 10:20 |
| *** _jmp_ has quit IRC | 10:20 | |
| DinaBelova | bauzas, so we need to create document, describing our project, our view on it | 10:20 |
| SergeyLukjanov | I think that we should start working on Incubation application without sending it | 10:20 |
| DinaBelova | SergeyLukjanov, | 10:20 |
| DinaBelova | +1 | 10:20 |
| SergeyLukjanov | just to be sure that everything is ok | 10:20 |
| bauzas | just one comment, our current usecases could all fit under the Compute umbrella :) | 10:20 |
| DinaBelova | not really... | 10:20 |
| SergeyLukjanov | bauzas, there are plans for supporting all other services/resources for reservations | 10:21 |
| bauzas | well, reserving Nova resources could be seen as a feature of Nova :) | 10:21 |
| SergeyLukjanov | like stacks, networks and etc. | 10:21 |
| bauzas | floating IPs are Nova | 10:21 |
| Nikolay_1t | no | 10:21 |
| bauzas | we need to provision routers | 10:21 |
| DinaBelova | bauzas, we have plans about new resources - Neutron's, Heat's | 10:21 |
| Nikolay_1t | IPs is neutron | 10:21 |
| DinaBelova | and we were talking about reserving of storage nodes | 10:22 |
| DinaBelova | and so on | 10:22 |
| bauzas | yup | 10:22 |
| DinaBelova | so that's not about Nova | 10:22 |
| Nikolay_1t | on last summit they said that it's a good point to manage network resources using Neutron | 10:22 |
| DinaBelova | Compute, sorry*** | 10:22 |
| bauzas | I'm just speaking as Devil lawyer :) | 10:22 |
| DinaBelova | bauzas, | 10:22 |
| DinaBelova | :D | 10:22 |
| DinaBelova | ok, so agreed on creating new prorram | 10:22 |
| bauzas | because if we apply as new Program, there will be some contradictors | 10:22 |
| bauzas | #agreed ? :D | 10:22 |
| DinaBelova | bauzas, sorry | 10:23 |
| DinaBelova | lost your disagreements | 10:23 |
| DinaBelova | what kind of contradictors? | 10:23 |
| SergeyLukjanov | there are still no programs with more than one project in it :) | 10:23 |
| bauzas | nah nah, I'm just saying I'm OK, but we need to prepare our mission statement | 10:23 |
| DinaBelova | bauzas, absolutely! | 10:23 |
| bauzas | provisioning Neutron routers should be explicit | 10:24 |
| SergeyLukjanov | except maybe TripleO + Tuskar, but I don't know much about their relationship | 10:24 |
| bauzas | SergeyLukjanov: I could speak about them, but we would be running out of time :) | 10:24 |
| DinaBelova | #agreed Prepare new program's description and start working on incubation proposal with mission, etc. | 10:24 |
| *** ArthurBerezin has joined #openstack-meeting | 10:24 | |
| DinaBelova | okay | 10:24 |
| bauzas | these discussions should be public thanks to the ML | 10:25 |
| SergeyLukjanov | writing new program application + incubation application will help us to analyze the gaps in scope/etc. | 10:25 |
| DinaBelova | SergeyLukjanov, +1 | 10:25 |
| DinaBelova | bauzas, of course | 10:25 |
| DinaBelova | are you ok with moving to the next topic? | 10:25 |
| bauzas | ok, once we agreed that, we need to go to the next point | 10:25 |
| bauzas | because there is a consequence | 10:25 |
| DinaBelova | #topic PTL election questions | 10:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "PTL election questions (Meeting topic: climate)" | 10:26 | |
| DinaBelova | I've asked Sergey to help us | 10:26 |
| DinaBelova | because he has much more experience :) | 10:26 |
| bauzas | jd__ could also help | 10:26 |
| DinaBelova | bauzas, of course | 10:26 |
| SergeyLukjanov | there are many options on how to make it, but I think that the right approach for climate is to use the common OS process | 10:26 |
| bauzas | sure | 10:26 |
| SergeyLukjanov | 1w for proposing candidates | 10:26 |
| bauzas | a Condorcet election | 10:26 |
| SergeyLukjanov | self-propositions I mean | 10:26 |
| SergeyLukjanov | + 1w for elections | 10:26 |
| SergeyLukjanov | yup http://civs.cs.cornell.edu | 10:26 |
| bauzas | yup, we need to formalize that | 10:27 |
| SergeyLukjanov | #info http://civs.cs.cornell.edu | 10:27 |
| *** Shaan7 has quit IRC | 10:27 | |
| bauzas | there is a link for this | 10:27 |
| bauzas | hold on | 10:27 |
| SergeyLukjanov | yup, process is well defined | 10:27 |
| bauzas | that's on wiki | 10:27 |
| bauzas | we just need to propose the process and vote for it | 10:28 |
| *** doron is now known as doron_afk | 10:28 | |
| *** Jianyong has quit IRC | 10:28 | |
| SergeyLukjanov | bauzas, I can do it for the next meeting | 10:28 |
| SergeyLukjanov | we've done the same in Savanna | 10:28 |
| SergeyLukjanov | and I can find old etherpads | 10:28 |
| DinaBelova | SergeyLukjanov, yes, I saw that | 10:28 |
| *** ArthurBerezin has quit IRC | 10:29 | |
| SergeyLukjanov | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Election_Officiating_Guidelines | 10:29 |
| bauzas | that's basically only matter of giving the wikipage, and asking for +1/-1 ? | 10:29 |
| SergeyLukjanov | some info ^^ | 10:29 |
| *** Jianyong has joined #openstack-meeting | 10:29 | |
| bauzas | so, we agree on the proposal, and then we go thru it | 10:29 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | I think that the process is well defined, so, we just to agree on that by voting on the next meeting for example | 10:29 |
| SergeyLukjanov | then wait foor candidates for a week | 10:29 |
| bauzas | exactly | 10:30 |
| SergeyLukjanov | and then setup condorset elections | 10:30 |
| bauzas | that's what I was trying to sat :) | 10:30 |
| bauzas | say | 10:30 |
| DinaBelova | and then have 1week lonf elections | 10:30 |
| SergeyLukjanov | I think that I now several questions | 10:30 |
| bauzas | it will be a little hard due to the vacancies | 10:30 |
| SergeyLukjanov | that we'll need to discuss | 10:30 |
| DinaBelova | SergeyLukjanov, what are they? | 10:31 |
| DinaBelova | bauzas, what do you mean? | 10:31 |
| *** paragan has quit IRC | 10:31 | |
| SergeyLukjanov | 1. for which time range we'll elect ptl | 10:31 |
| SergeyLukjanov | 2. how we'll collect ATCs list | 10:31 |
| bauzas | +1 | 10:31 |
| DinaBelova | okay | 10:31 |
| bauzas | 1. 6 months sound okay to me | 10:32 |
| SergeyLukjanov | so, for the #1 icehouse will be the best option | 10:32 |
| SergeyLukjanov | to be aligned with openstack elections | 10:32 |
| bauzas | well, that's a good point | 10:32 |
| SergeyLukjanov | in savanna we've elected me for the end of current and next cycle | 10:32 |
| SergeyLukjanov | it works too :) | 10:32 |
| DinaBelova | so we are speaking about time till the end of Icehouse release | 10:32 |
| DinaBelova | am I right? | 10:33 |
| bauzas | yup | 10:33 |
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| bauzas | 4 months | 10:33 |
| bauzas | and then we revote | 10:33 |
| SergeyLukjanov | If we'll complete elections in mid-end Jan than it'll the mid Icehouse | 10:33 |
| SergeyLukjanov | looks like that it's ok | 10:33 |
| DinaBelova | ok, nice | 10:33 |
| SergeyLukjanov | let's setup voting right now? | 10:33 |
| DinaBelova | Nikolay_1t, are you ok with that? | 10:33 |
| SergeyLukjanov | it'll be better to have voting results for all our decisions | 10:33 |
| DinaBelova | SergeyLukjanov, +1 | 10:34 |
| Nikolay_1t | +1 for icehouse PTL | 10:34 |
| bauzas | +1 for Icehouse timeframe | 10:34 |
| DinaBelova | #startvote Elect PTL for the Icehouse timeframe? Yes,No | 10:34 |
| openstack | Begin voting on: Elect PTL for the Icehouse timeframe? Valid vote options are Yes, No. | 10:35 |
| openstack | Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts. | 10:35 |
| SergeyLukjanov | #vote Yes | 10:35 |
| bauzas | #vote Yes | 10:35 |
| DinaBelova | #vote Yes | 10:35 |
| f_rossigneux_ | #vote Yes | 10:35 |
| Nikolay_1t | #vote Yes | 10:35 |
| bauzas | ok, we can close the vote :) | 10:36 |
| SergeyLukjanov | looks like that's enough :) | 10:36 |
| DinaBelova | #endvote | 10:36 |
| openstack | Voted on "Elect PTL for the Icehouse timeframe?" Results are | 10:36 |
| openstack | Yes (5): bauzas, f_rossigneux_, DinaBelova, SergeyLukjanov, Nikolay_1t | 10:36 |
| SergeyLukjanov | yay! | 10:36 |
| DinaBelova | :) | 10:36 |
| SergeyLukjanov | the next question is about choosing electorate | 10:36 |
| DinaBelova | so the next point was about how we'll collect ATCs list | 10:36 |
| bauzas | ok, next question was : how we can find Climate ATCs ? | 10:36 |
| SergeyLukjanov | the common practice is take all commiters | 10:37 |
| bauzas | eactly | 10:37 |
| Nikolay_1t | yeap, that's good | 10:37 |
| SergeyLukjanov | but I have a concern that there was some initial code that was obsolete and removed afaiu | 10:37 |
| DinaBelova | but the question is for what period | 10:37 |
| bauzas | do we also take current reviews ? | 10:37 |
| Nikolay_1t | well | 10:37 |
| DinaBelova | Icehouse? Or whenever> | 10:37 |
| Nikolay_1t | why not? | 10:37 |
| DinaBelova | ? | 10:37 |
| SergeyLukjanov | bauzas, in OpenStack only existing commits used | 10:37 |
| Nikolay_1t | on review I think | 10:37 |
| Nikolay_1t | :( | 10:37 |
| Nikolay_1t | okay | 10:37 |
| *** jcooley_ has quit IRC | 10:38 | |
| * SergeyLukjanov looking for the doc | 10:38 | |
| bauzas | well, briefly checking at the git log | 10:38 |
| DinaBelova | That's for the Icehouse http://stackalytics.com/?release=icehouse&metric=commits&project_type=stackforge&module=climate&company=&user_id= | 10:38 |
| SergeyLukjanov | I have some scripts to build ATC list | 10:38 |
| bauzas | let's vote then | 10:38 |
| DinaBelova | That's for all periods http://stackalytics.com/?release=all&metric=commits&project_type=stackforge&module=climate&company=&user_id= | 10:38 |
| SergeyLukjanov | are there any initial thoughts to exclude initial climate code? | 10:39 |
| bauzas | I don't think we have to exclude | 10:39 |
| bauzas | because any committed code is good for climate | 10:39 |
| bauzas | even if that's useless now | 10:39 |
| SergeyLukjanov | but it was replaced, isn't it? | 10:40 |
| bauzas | that would send a bad signal | 10:40 |
| SergeyLukjanov | doesn't really matter for me | 10:40 |
| bauzas | and that doesn't change | 10:40 |
| bauzas | the list of ATCs | 10:40 |
| *** vkozhukalov has quit IRC | 10:40 | |
| bauzas | but that would only be a terrible mistake in terms of communication | 10:40 |
| SergeyLukjanov | Except otherwise-noted in the program description, the electorate for a given program PTL election are the Foundation individual members that are also committers for one of the program projects over the Grizzly-Havana timeframe | 10:40 |
| bauzas | generally speaking, a 2 cycle-period is a timeframe for electing ATCs | 10:41 |
| SergeyLukjanov | yup | 10:41 |
| DinaBelova | As i looked, the list of ATC will be the same anyway | 10:41 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ok | 10:41 |
| SergeyLukjanov | so, let's vote to confirm it | 10:41 |
| bauzas | ok | 10:41 |
| *** ArthurBerezin has joined #openstack-meeting | 10:42 | |
| DinaBelova | #startvote Use 2 OpenStack release cycles as a timeframe for electing ATCs? Yes,No | 10:42 |
| openstack | Begin voting on: Use 2 OpenStack release cycles as a timeframe for electing ATCs? Valid vote options are Yes, No. | 10:42 |
| openstack | Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts. | 10:42 |
| bauzas | #vote Yes | 10:42 |
| DinaBelova | #vote Yes | 10:42 |
| SergeyLukjanov | #vote Yes | 10:42 |
| f_rossigneux_ | #vote Yes | 10:42 |
| Nikolay_1t | #vote Yes | 10:42 |
| DinaBelova | #endvote | 10:43 |
| openstack | Voted on "Use 2 OpenStack release cycles as a timeframe for electing ATCs?" Results are | 10:43 |
| openstack | Yes (5): bauzas, f_rossigneux_, DinaBelova, SergeyLukjanov, Nikolay_1t | 10:43 |
| bauzas | ok | 10:43 |
| DinaBelova | okay | 10:43 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ok | 10:43 |
| SergeyLukjanov | do we have any other topics to discuss? | 10:43 |
| bauzas | a big one :( | 10:43 |
| SergeyLukjanov | except elections | 10:43 |
| bauzas | Cafe | 10:43 |
| DinaBelova | I think for this topic that's it | 10:43 |
| DinaBelova | let's move to the next | 10:43 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | I need some time to think about other elections-related stuff | 10:43 |
| DinaBelova | SergeyLukjanov, okay | 10:44 |
| SergeyLukjanov | #action SergeyLukjanov to prepare aggregated doc about Climate PTL elections | 10:44 |
| DinaBelova | #topic Cafe project https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Cafe | 10:44 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Cafe project https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Cafe (Meeting topic: climate)" | 10:44 | |
| bauzas | how did you find them ? | 10:44 |
| DinaBelova | Okay, today I found one email | 10:44 |
| bauzas | because I can't find any code on Stackforge | 10:44 |
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| DinaBelova | #link http://www.mail-archive.com/openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org/msg11857.html | 10:44 |
| DinaBelova | because they have not shared it yet | 10:44 |
| Nikolay_1t | just from mailing list, yes | 10:45 |
| DinaBelova | But their initiative was after ours | 10:45 |
| DinaBelova | And Nick and I wrote them to look on Climate | 10:45 |
| bauzas | missed it ?! | 10:45 |
| DinaBelova | bauzas, looks so... | 10:45 |
| bauzas | ok, anyway, let's wait for feedback | 10:46 |
| bauzas | that's something we need to know | 10:46 |
| DinaBelova | because they definitely have overlaps with us.... | 10:46 |
| bauzas | what's bad is that they did prototype without checking what's existing | 10:46 |
| SergeyLukjanov | overlaps, or climate do the same? | 10:46 |
| DinaBelova | SergeyLukjanov, not really a copy | 10:46 |
| DinaBelova | but the most of things - yes | 10:46 |
| bauzas | ok, then maybe that's good news then :) | 10:47 |
| DinaBelova | the only thing they have different from us - they propose the users creating mechanism in the Cafe | 10:47 |
| bauzas | because if they have new usecases, then they could contribute to Climate | 10:47 |
| SergeyLukjanov | it'll be really cool to have one more team and usecases pack | 10:47 |
| bauzas | +1 | 10:47 |
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| DinaBelova | +1 | 10:47 |
| DinaBelova | so let's wait their reaction | 10:47 |
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| bauzas | sure | 10:47 |
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| bauzas | anyway, we're pretty well implemented now | 10:48 |
| bauzas | so I'm not so worried | 10:48 |
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| DinaBelova | and the thing is they did not share their code proposal... | 10:48 |
| SergeyLukjanov | btw today will be tc meeting with the final barbician incubation discussions, so, it could be useful for you guys | 10:48 |
| DinaBelova | so we know nothing about what do they relly implemented | 10:48 |
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| bauzas | Climate is already known by TC | 10:49 |
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| DinaBelova | SergeyLukjanov, let's move it now to the open discussion | 10:49 |
| DinaBelova | bauzas, that's about incubaion process | 10:49 |
| bauzas | yup, followed ity | 10:49 |
| DinaBelova | #topic Open discussion | 10:49 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: climate)" | 10:49 | |
| SergeyLukjanov | bauzas, I'm speaking not about talking about climate but listening about how other guys trying to become incubated ;) | 10:49 |
| DinaBelova | ok, so I think we may take a look on this process closer :) | 10:50 |
| DinaBelova | SergeyLukjanov, yep | 10:50 |
| bauzas | SergeyLukjanov: yup yup | 10:50 |
| DinaBelova | They had problems | 10:50 |
| DinaBelova | we may prevent them on our case | 10:50 |
| bauzas | SergeyLukjanov: I'm just saying that Climate is already known | 10:50 |
| DinaBelova | :) | 10:50 |
| bauzas | contrary to Cafe | 10:50 |
| SergeyLukjanov | yup and it's good | 10:50 |
| SergeyLukjanov | and that's cool that Tim B. points to climate in response to the cafe proposal | 10:51 |
| bauzas | well, about holidays, maybe we should just share our periods | 10:51 |
| DinaBelova | I was really impressed Tim Bell said about us :) We have met on Summit, but discussed another problem | 10:51 |
| DinaBelova | So I was glad he noticed our Climate thing | 10:51 |
| DinaBelova | ok, as for holidays | 10:51 |
| bauzas | I spoke with Tim Bell last week | 10:51 |
| bauzas | that's why he knew it | 10:51 |
| DinaBelova | ok | 10:52 |
| *** vkozhukalov has joined #openstack-meeting | 10:52 | |
| bauzas | this guy was leading the CERN summit where I presented Climate | 10:52 |
| SergeyLukjanov | let's make one more vote to confirm how candidates for ptl elections will be choosen | 10:52 |
| *** Jianyong has quit IRC | 10:52 | |
| bauzas | and my team and I are planning to go back at CERN speaking about our usecases | 10:52 |
| SergeyLukjanov | I mean that anyone can self-nominate | 10:52 |
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| *** sushil_ has joined #openstack-meeting | 10:53 | |
| *** mrunge has joined #openstack-meeting | 10:53 | |
| SergeyLukjanov | and I think that there is no need to make voting to confirm http://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/~andru/civs/ as a tool and to confirm 1w elections duration | 10:53 |
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| DinaBelova | #startvote May the PTL candidate be self-nominated? Yes,No | 10:53 |
| openstack | Begin voting on: May the PTL candidate be self-nominated? Valid vote options are Yes, No. | 10:53 |
| openstack | Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts. | 10:54 |
| bauzas | #vote Yes | 10:54 |
| SergeyLukjanov | may -> should | 10:54 |
| DinaBelova | oh | 10:54 |
| DinaBelova | sorry | 10:54 |
| DinaBelova | #undo | 10:54 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x3963790> | 10:54 |
| DinaBelova | hm | 10:55 |
| SergeyLukjanov | hm, looks like there is no more open discussions :) | 10:55 |
| bauzas | close the vote and reopen it | 10:55 |
| DinaBelova | #endvote | 10:55 |
| openstack | Voted on "May the PTL candidate be self-nominated?" Results are | 10:55 |
| openstack | Yes (1): bauzas | 10:55 |
| bauzas | oops :) | 10:55 |
| DinaBelova | #startvote Should the PTL candidate be self-nominated? Yes,No | 10:55 |
| openstack | Begin voting on: Should the PTL candidate be self-nominated? Valid vote options are Yes, No. | 10:55 |
| openstack | Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts. | 10:55 |
| bauzas | #vote Yes | 10:55 |
| DinaBelova | #vote Yes | 10:55 |
| SergeyLukjanov | #vote Yes | 10:55 |
| f_rossigneux_ | #vote Yes | 10:56 |
| Nikolay_1t | #vote Yes | 10:56 |
| DinaBelova | #endvote | 10:56 |
| openstack | Voted on "Should the PTL candidate be self-nominated?" Results are | 10:56 |
| openstack | Yes (5): bauzas, f_rossigneux_, DinaBelova, SergeyLukjanov, Nikolay_1t | 10:56 |
| bauzas | ok | 10:56 |
| *** suo has quit IRC | 10:56 | |
| SergeyLukjanov | it looks like all elections-related question are already discussed and we can send an announce 1w for self-nomination | 10:56 |
| bauzas | +1 | 10:57 |
| DinaBelova | Ok, so that's it :) | 10:57 |
| DinaBelova | bye, guys :) | 10:57 |
| DinaBelova | #endmeeting | 10:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 10:57 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 17 10:57:34 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 10:57 |
| Nikolay_1t | bye | 10:57 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/climate/2013/climate.2013-12-17-09.59.html | 10:57 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/climate/2013/climate.2013-12-17-09.59.txt | 10:57 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/climate/2013/climate.2013-12-17-09.59.log.html | 10:57 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | ok, I'll aggregate info about elections and return back todays night with an email in ML | 10:57 |
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| *** jcooley_ has joined #openstack-meeting | 10:58 | |
| bauzas | ok | 10:58 |
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| cloudon1 | ls -lrt | 14:25 |
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| n0ano | #startmeeting scheduler | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 17 15:00:06 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: scheduler)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'scheduler' | 15:00 |
| n0ano | anyone here for the scheduler meeting? | 15:00 |
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| garyk | hi | 15:02 |
| MikeSpreitzer | hello | 15:03 |
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| n0ano | I was beginning to think I had the wrong time or something :-) | 15:03 |
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| comstud | o/ | 15:05 |
| n0ano | hmm, looks like the mirantis guys aren't here so can't talk about the nodb scheduler status | 15:05 |
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| n0ano | In that case | 15:05 |
| n0ano | #topic scheduler code forklift | 15:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "scheduler code forklift (Meeting topic: scheduler)" | 15:05 | |
| n0ano | I can definitely report that we are making good progress on separating out the scheduler code... | 15:06 |
| n0ano | we have created two new repos, one for the scheduler and one for the client APIs... | 15:06 |
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| n0ano | you can get to these repos at... | 15:06 |
| n0ano | #link https://github.com/openstack/gantt | 15:07 |
| n0ano | #link https://github.com/openstack/python-ganttclient | 15:07 |
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| n0ano | They are not quite ready for prime time yet, I'm trying to do a simple patch (update the readme file) and we're having issues with Jenkens... | 15:08 |
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| n0ano | once we get that resolved the repos should be ready for normal updates & reviews | 15:08 |
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| garyk | i still have issues with the client - we have yet to even talk about interfaces. | 15:09 |
| garyk | is the client here just a interface for the rpc? | 15:09 |
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| n0ano | that's all that's there so far but I belive it should be extended to a restfull interface | 15:10 |
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| garyk | ok, thanks for the clarification | 15:10 |
| n0ano | can you articulate your issues with the client, are the architectural or implementation specific? | 15:10 |
| n0ano | s/are the/are they | 15:11 |
| garyk | just one concern about the developments in 2 different trees - will the imports be the diffs? | 15:11 |
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| n0ano | my thought was, until we move to the new trees, the primary development is in nova and I can take on the task of mirroring changes to the new trees. | 15:11 |
| garyk | n0ano: i am not sure why we need a client defined at the moment. the reason for that is there is no actual API defined. | 15:11 |
| alaski | o/ | 15:11 |
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| n0ano | hopefully, there won't be too many changes before we can move to the new trees | 15:12 |
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| garyk | ok. thanks for doing this. | 15:12 |
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| n0ano | garyk I think that's a reasonable concern, we should discuss the actual API and define it, the real question will be who wants to take on the task of doing that (design by committee not one of my favorite modes) | 15:13 |
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| garyk | i think that the ideal place for that would be the next summit. a few people in a room… only get out for beer when there is an API defined | 15:14 |
| alaski | Do we have enough details to try to define the api yet? | 15:14 |
| hnarkaytis | update on memcached scheduler: devstack was broken last week, so still can't make end-to-end tests. Hopefully this will be completed on this week | 15:14 |
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| garyk | alaski: no, not yet | 15:15 |
| n0ano | alaski I don't so, not yet | 15:15 |
| garyk | all we have decided on is the forklift. which is just moving code from a to b | 15:15 |
| MikeSpreitzer | In what way was DevStack broken? How would I know about this? (Sorry for the newbie questions) | 15:15 |
| n0ano | I agree with garyk, a session in Atlanta would be appropriate but we still need one person to drive | 15:15 |
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| alaski | garyk: thanks, just confirming | 15:16 |
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| garyk | MikeSpreitzer: www.devstack.org - this is used for the gating and helping one spin up a setup with openstack | 15:16 |
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| garyk | it is used for testing and development | 15:16 |
| MikeSpreitzer | I know that much. My question is about how I know about it being broken. | 15:16 |
| hnarkaytis | kvm crushes on attempt to start new VM | 15:17 |
| n0ano | #topic memcached base scheduler | 15:17 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "memcached base scheduler (Meeting topic: scheduler)" | 15:17 | |
| MikeSpreitzer | Is "devstack is broken" the same as "problem in the gate"? | 15:17 |
| n0ano | MikeSpreitzer, +1 | 15:17 |
| garyk | MikeSpreitzer: over the last few weeks the gating has been broken every now and then. Last week it was due to some issues with Neutron | 15:17 |
| hnarkaytis | MikeSpreitzer: no, DevStack doesn't work locally | 15:17 |
| hnarkaytis | it is not a problem on a gate | 15:18 |
| n0ano | so the problem was your local development environment was broken - ick | 15:18 |
| hnarkaytis | correct | 15:18 |
| n0ano | but sounds like there are gate issues also, just to make life interesting | 15:19 |
| n0ano | hnarkaytis, will the holidays slow you down? | 15:19 |
| hnarkaytis | we are in Russia, so we will have holidays in Jan | 15:20 |
| hnarkaytis | we will work till Dec 31st | 15:20 |
| n0ano | cool, you work while we play :-) | 15:20 |
| hnarkaytis | I expect that end-to-end tests will be completed on this week | 15:20 |
| n0ano | hnarkaytis, with patches up for review shortly afterwards? | 15:21 |
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| hnarkaytis | crushing KVM is the only problem. We spent Friday and Monday on this | 15:21 |
| MikeSpreitzer | sounds violent | 15:21 |
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| hnarkaytis | I will alert all reviewers via gerrit | 15:22 |
| n0ano | hnarkaytis, tnx for the effort, looking forward to the patches, any other questions on this subject? | 15:23 |
| n0ano | in that case, garyk did you want to talk about instance groups (I've kind of been ignoring you) | 15:23 |
| garyk | n0ano: sure. just wanted to give a quick update | 15:25 |
| n0ano | #topic instance groups | 15:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "instance groups (Meeting topic: scheduler)" | 15:25 | |
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| n0ano | garyk, you have the floor | 15:25 |
| garyk | 1. we have a scheduling patch in review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/33956/ | 15:25 |
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| garyk | 2. we are currently working on the V2 and V3 API's - the code needs a little rafactor and hopefully we'll post it sooner than later | 15:26 |
| garyk | 3. we have the client V2 support, need to add the V3 support | 15:26 |
| garyk | thats about it at the moment. We are progressing slowly at the moment but hope to have it all done by I2 | 15:27 |
| n0ano | (great, first set of patches I need to mirror to the new tree :-) | 15:27 |
| garyk | if not we should be tarred and featherd :) | 15:27 |
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| garyk | regarding the new tree - maybe we should have a script that notifies if one of the files in the scheduling directory or rpc interfaces are updated…. | 15:27 |
| n0ano | garyk, that'd be great, otherwise I was just planning on monitoring things carefully, fortunately it's a relatively know set of files to monitor | 15:28 |
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| garyk | n0ano: i'll try and script something for that in the coming days | 15:29 |
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| n0ano | garyk, cool, let me know, we should be able to work it out | 15:29 |
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| garyk | ok, will do. | 15:30 |
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| n0ano | #topic administrivia | 15:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "administrivia (Meeting topic: scheduler)" | 15:30 | |
| garyk | i guess that you can go to the next topic - nothing else to update regarding the instance groups | 15:30 |
| garyk | :) | 15:30 |
| n0ano | I'm going to be out the next two week (major holidays here), unless someone else wants to chair I propose we just cancel the next two meetings and start up again on 1/7/14 | 15:31 |
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| n0ano | work can still progress (email is a wonderful thing) | 15:31 |
| alaski | +1 | 15:32 |
| jgallard | +1 | 15:32 |
| toan-tran | +1 | 15:32 |
| n0ano | I'll take that as unanimous consent :-) | 15:32 |
| n0ano | #topic opens | 15:32 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "opens (Meeting topic: scheduler)" | 15:32 | |
| garyk | +1 | 15:32 |
| n0ano | Anyone have anything new for today? | 15:33 |
| garyk | wishing you all a merry xmas and happy new year (our side of the world it is business as usual till april :() | 15:33 |
| n0ano | +1 | 15:33 |
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| n0ano | OK, I'm hearing silence, tnx everyone and we'll meet here again next year | 15:34 |
| n0ano | #endmeeting | 15:35 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:35 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 17 15:35:16 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:35 |
| alaski | thanks | 15:35 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2013/scheduler.2013-12-17-15.00.html | 15:35 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2013/scheduler.2013-12-17-15.00.txt | 15:35 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2013/scheduler.2013-12-17-15.00.log.html | 15:35 |
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| jamespage | o/ | 16:00 |
| jamespage | gah - wrong -meeting :-) | 16:01 |
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| primeministerp | hi all | 16:03 |
| primeministerp | #startmeeting hyper-v | 16:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 17 16:03:54 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is primeministerp. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: hyper-v)" | 16:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'hyper_v' | 16:03 |
| primeministerp | quick meeting today just to catch up | 16:04 |
| primeministerp | mtaylor: ping | 16:04 |
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| primeministerp | alexpilotti: ping | 16:05 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: do you have anything to discuss today, I know we everyone is busy prior to the holidays | 16:05 |
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| alexpilotti | yep | 16:07 |
| alexpilotti | we have new on cloudbase-init | 16:07 |
| alexpilotti | passwordless authentication | 16:07 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: nice | 16:08 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: anything else | 16:11 |
| alexpilotti | primeministerp: sorry I was on the phone | 16:11 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: understood | 16:11 |
| alexpilotti | I'm going to follow up on the ML | 16:11 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: great | 16:11 |
| alexpilotti | on the certificate auth | 16:11 |
| primeministerp | mtaylor: I need to follow up w/ you as well | 16:11 |
| alexpilotti | as we need to figure auth how to handle teh certificates | 16:12 |
| alexpilotti | which IMO should be treated like the keypairs | 16:12 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: agreed | 16:12 |
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| primeministerp | alexpilotti: ok then, i'm going to end the meeting | 16:12 |
| primeministerp | alexpilotti: we'll meet after the new year again | 16:13 |
| alexpilotti | ok! | 16:13 |
| primeministerp | #endmeeting | 16:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:13 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 17 16:13:15 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:13 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2013/hyper_v.2013-12-17-16.03.html | 16:13 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2013/hyper_v.2013-12-17-16.03.txt | 16:13 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2013/hyper_v.2013-12-17-16.03.log.html | 16:13 |
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| primeministerp | #endmeeting | 17:06 |
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| boris-42 | #startmeeting rally | 17:10 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 17 17:10:16 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is boris-42. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:10 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: rally)" | 17:10 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'rally' | 17:10 |
| boris-42 | msdubov ping | 17:10 |
| msdubov | boris-42 hi | 17:10 |
| boris-42 | jaypipes ping | 17:10 |
| boris-42 | harlowja_away ping | 17:10 |
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| boris-42 | Alexei_987 ping | 17:11 |
| Alexei_987 | pong | 17:11 |
| boris-42 | okay let's start | 17:12 |
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| boris-42 | #topic Benchmark periodic execution | 17:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Benchmark periodic execution (Meeting topic: rally)" | 17:12 | |
| jaypipes | o/ | 17:12 |
| boris-42 | msdubov pls could you explain what you done and what is the goal and status | 17:12 |
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| msdubov | boris-42 Well the patch has been actually pending for review for quite a while, but I've rewritten it so that it now launches benchmark scenarios in separate threads and counts periods between two consecutive scenario STARTS, which is different from the previous implementation where the engine counted the period between the end of one scenario and the beginning of the next one | 17:14 |
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| msdubov | Besides, threading allows the benchmark engine to be error-resistant | 17:14 |
| msdubov | so if one of the periodic launches fails, the work still continues | 17:15 |
| boris-42 | msdubov could you share with url of patch? | 17:15 |
| msdubov | Now the patch has been tested on Servers.boot_and_delete() | 17:15 |
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| msdubov | sure | 17:15 |
| msdubov | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/57628/ | 17:15 |
| boris-42 | msdubov did you try to set really small period? | 17:15 |
| boris-42 | msdubov tol get a lot of threads ? | 17:15 |
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| msdubov | boris-42 Nope, I tested it with 30 seconds | 17:16 |
| msdubov | Is there a well-known boundary for the number of threads? | 17:16 |
| Alexei_987 | ^ unsigned int lol | 17:17 |
| boris-42 | msdubov idk, but just try for example to run start_stop every 5 seconds | 17:17 |
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| boris-42 | msdubov 500times | 17:17 |
| msdubov | Alexei_987 in Python that shouldn't be a problem? | 17:17 |
| msdubov | boris-42 Ok thanks for the advice | 17:17 |
| Alexei_987 | threads are OS dependent. anyway should be enough for us :) | 17:17 |
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| msdubov | Alexei_987 Now I see | 17:18 |
| boris-42 | redixin could you take a look at that patch also ^ | 17:18 |
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| msdubov | boris-42 I think we could just increase the period programmatically to, say, 5 seconds, if it is set to 0.0001 for example | 17:18 |
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| boris-42 | msdubov okay | 17:18 |
| msdubov | to avoid such problems | 17:18 |
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| boris-42 | #topic Stress tests | 17:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Stress tests (Meeting topic: rally)" | 17:19 | |
| boris-42 | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/rally/+spec/benchmark-stress-test-execution | 17:20 |
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| boris-42 | There is already blueprint about it | 17:20 |
| msdubov | This is what I'm working on now | 17:20 |
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| boris-42 | So the idea is to simplify stress testing of OpenStack | 17:20 |
| boris-42 | instead of writing each benchmark with specific "concurrency" we will have more compact record for this | 17:21 |
| boris-42 | as in a description of BP | 17:21 |
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| boris-42 | msdubov are you going to finish it by the end of next week? | 17:21 |
| msdubov | boris-42 Yes | 17:22 |
| boris-42 | msdubov okay nice | 17:22 |
| boris-42 | msdubov so next time we will discuss it=) | 17:22 |
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| boris-42 | #topic Fuel based deployer | 17:22 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Fuel based deployer (Meeting topic: rally)" | 17:22 | |
| boris-42 | redixin ping | 17:22 |
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| boris-42 | redixin could you share with us about Fuel based deployer | 17:22 |
| redixin | there is 2 patches | 17:22 |
| redixin | add Fuel client https://review.openstack.org/#/c/59943/ | 17:23 |
| redixin | add Fuel engine https://review.openstack.org/#/c/61963/ | 17:23 |
| boris-42 | redixin does that work? | 17:23 |
| boris-42 | =) | 17:23 |
| redixin | yep. with Fuel-4.0-dev | 17:23 |
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| redixin | which isnt released yet | 17:24 |
| boris-42 | redixin could you some details and limitations of Fuel deployer? | 17:24 |
| boris-42 | redixin for example how long it takes to deploy 1 node OS | 17:24 |
| boris-42 | redixin how long in takes to deploy multimode | 17:24 |
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| redixin | Fuel is refusing to deploy 1 node OS. 2 nodes minimum | 17:25 |
| redixin | it takes about 30 min | 17:25 |
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| redixin | there is no limitations. only limitation is Fuel. | 17:25 |
| boris-42 | redixin but we are not able to deploy OS from custom code? | 17:26 |
| boris-42 | redixin I mean custom nova/cinder/.. | 17:26 |
| redixin | yes. we can deploy with this provider only whay possible to do with Fuel itself | 17:27 |
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| boris-42 | redixin eh we will need to extend this | 17:27 |
| redixin | Fuel can't do this, so FuelEngine also can't do that | 17:27 |
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| redixin | boris-42: indeed | 17:28 |
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| boris-42 | redixin so with Fuel Engine we are able to deploy on servers provided by any existing server provider multimode OpenStack installation in HA? | 17:28 |
| redixin | no | 17:28 |
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| boris-42 | redixin so there are some limitation? | 17:28 |
| boris-42 | limitations* | 17:28 |
| redixin | it can deploy on servers only provisioned by Fuel | 17:29 |
| redixin | I said only limitation is Fuel. We can only do things than can do Fuel itself | 17:29 |
| redixin | This engine is just client for FuelWeb | 17:30 |
| boris-42 | redixin but it is useless then, because developers don't have own baremetall servers | 17:30 |
| redixin | It is not useless if they have | 17:30 |
| boris-42 | redixin I thought that we are using only deploy part of FUEL | 17:30 |
| boris-42 | redixin without provision | 17:30 |
| redixin | boris-42: not yet | 17:30 |
| boris-42 | redixin what means "not yet" | 17:31 |
| boris-42 | redixin it is the FUEL or our problem? | 17:31 |
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| redixin | boris-42: theoretically Fuel api can do this, but I not tested it yet | 17:32 |
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| boris-42 | redixin could you test it, because it is super interesting for developers | 17:33 |
| boris-42 | redixin ? | 17:33 |
| redixin | boris-42: sure | 17:33 |
| boris-42 | redixin thanks | 17:33 |
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| boris-42 | #topic Improvements in DevStack engine | 17:33 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Improvements in DevStack engine (Meeting topic: rally)" | 17:33 | |
| boris-42 | redixin I have couple of thoughts about current DevStack Engine | 17:34 |
| boris-42 | redixin at this moment we are able to specify only the repository for devstack | 17:34 |
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| boris-42 | redixin but it is extra useful to be able to specify something like take my NovaRepo and all others from current master | 17:35 |
| boris-42 | redixin so you will be able to get clouds with your patches | 17:35 |
| redixin | boris-42: it is possible to build totally custom localrc | 17:35 |
| redixin | and in localrc we can specify NOVA_REPO | 17:35 |
| boris-42 | redixin could you add tutorial/readme/samples about how to do it in rally | 17:36 |
| boris-42 | redixin we should make it simpler & cleaner then now | 17:36 |
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| boris-42 | redixin ok? | 17:37 |
| redixin | boris-42: it is already there AFAIR | 17:37 |
| boris-42 | redixin where what how? | 17:37 |
| boris-42 | redixin i see only samples/deployemnts/ directory | 17:38 |
| redixin | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Rally/DeployEngines#Configuration_Example_2 | 17:38 |
| boris-42 | redixin and there is nothing about custom Nova | 17:38 |
| redixin | see NOVA_REPO in localrc | 17:38 |
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| boris-42 | redixin this should be in rally/doc/samples/deployments as well IMHO | 17:39 |
| redixin | boris-42: ok | 17:39 |
| boris-42 | redixin okay it is nice that we have support of such functionallity | 17:39 |
| boris-42 | redixin next topic | 17:39 |
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| boris-42 | #topic OpenStack Server provider | 17:39 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Server provider (Meeting topic: rally)" | 17:39 | |
| boris-42 | When I run e.g. DevStack Engine with OpenStack Server provider | 17:40 |
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| boris-42 | I saw that I don't have access to horizon | 17:41 |
| boris-42 | neither via fixed neither via floating IP | 17:41 |
| redixin | boris-42: oh yes. it is caused by default access rules | 17:41 |
| redixin | only port 22 is allowed by default | 17:41 |
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| boris-42 | redixin yep yep | 17:41 |
| boris-42 | redixin so could we fix this? to make it work out of box? | 17:42 |
| redixin | boris-42: why dont you filed bug? | 17:42 |
| boris-42 | redixin okay I will file it | 17:42 |
| boris-42 | okay then next topic | 17:42 |
| boris-42 | #topic Benchmarks for Keystone | 17:43 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Benchmarks for Keystone (Meeting topic: rally)" | 17:43 | |
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| boris-42 | So there is a big interest in testing keystone performance with Rally | 17:43 |
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| boris-42 | As we can see from this recent thread http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack/2013-December/003947.html | 17:44 |
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| boris-42 | This wiki page https://blueprints.launchpad.net/rally/+spec/keystone-benchmark | 17:44 |
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| boris-42 | So it is reasonable to use for such things Rally | 17:44 |
| boris-42 | instead of bash scripts | 17:44 |
| boris-42 | So today we get new BP https://blueprints.launchpad.net/rally/+spec/keystone-benchmark | 17:45 |
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| boris-42 | and I am working on INIT patches that will allow us to write benchmarks for keystone | 17:45 |
| msdubov | boris-42 You've probably posted a wrong link to wiki | 17:45 |
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| boris-42 | msdubov this one https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/KeystonePerformance | 17:46 |
| boris-42 | so we should make a couple of thing to simplify this process | 17:46 |
| boris-42 | Fix user_init methods | 17:47 |
| boris-42 | Add admin_init mechanism | 17:47 |
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| boris-42 | Add cleanups for keystone benchmarks (we should delete all created users/projects/...) | 17:47 |
| msdubov | boris-42 I'd suggest to leave init() methods named init(), not user_init() | 17:48 |
| msdubov | boris-42 Sad that we'll have to introduce additional cleanups | 17:48 |
| msdubov | This will make everything more complex | 17:48 |
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| boris-42 | msdubov I think that user_init() admin_init() will be much more simple for understaning | 17:48 |
| boris-42 | msdubov we only need to improve generic cleanups | 17:48 |
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| boris-42 | msdubov and add some rules about naming resources when we are testing keystone | 17:49 |
| msdubov | boris-42 We somehow now need to track created resources? | 17:49 |
| boris-42 | msdubov like rally-keystone-<uuid> | 17:49 |
| boris-42 | msdubov no I don't like idea of tracking created users | 17:49 |
| msdubov | boris-42 Ok just by using naming rules? That's an oprion | 17:49 |
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| msdubov | *option | 17:49 |
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| boris-42 | msdubov yep and this hardcoded pattern will be in keystone utils | 17:49 |
| boris-42 | msdubov so if you create keystone resources through it you don't have any problems | 17:50 |
| boris-42 | with cleanups | 17:50 |
| msdubov | boris-42 I see | 17:50 |
| boris-42 | msdubov so after this will be done we will be able to add keystone benchmarks | 17:50 |
| boris-42 | okay seems enough for this topic | 17:50 |
| boris-42 | #topic OpenStack Profiling | 17:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Profiling (Meeting topic: rally)" | 17:51 | |
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| boris-42 | Alexei_987 ping | 17:51 |
| Alexei_987 | pong | 17:51 |
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| boris-42 | Alexei_987 could you share the latest thoughts and ideas about profiling | 17:51 |
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| Alexei_987 | well currently we have 2 patches: 1 in ceilometer and 1 in oslo waiting for review | 17:51 |
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| Alexei_987 | meanwhile we are working on patches for clients and nova | 17:51 |
| Alexei_987 | that add profiling capabilities | 17:52 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 what about clients, when we could expect some patches? | 17:52 |
| Alexei_987 | for clients we'll have to add something like an event framework | 17:52 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 on review | 17:52 |
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| Alexei_987 | based on nova/hooks | 17:52 |
| Alexei_987 | for this we'll move hooks nova -> olso -> clients | 17:53 |
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| boris-42 | Alexei_987 so we should just move nova python clients hooks from it to oslo | 17:53 |
| boris-42 | and then back | 17:53 |
| Alexei_987 | yes | 17:53 |
| boris-42 | to all clients | 17:53 |
| boris-42 | Seems like not so super hard | 17:53 |
| Alexei_987 | it's currently in progress | 17:53 |
| boris-42 | So do we have already BP? | 17:53 |
| boris-42 | could you share with link | 17:53 |
| boris-42 | ? | 17:53 |
| Alexei_987 | I haven't created a BP for this yet | 17:53 |
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| boris-42 | Alexei_987 okay pls could you creat it tomorrow at morning? | 17:54 |
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| Alexei_987 | ok | 17:54 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 thanks | 17:54 |
| Alexei_987 | and for nova I hope that you'll help me with proper patches architecture | 17:54 |
| boris-42 | And also we have one more thing it is visualization of logs | 17:54 |
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| Alexei_987 | cause it requires some solution for dependency injection problem | 17:54 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 ? | 17:55 |
| Alexei_987 | tie all objects together :) | 17:55 |
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| boris-42 | Alexei_987 objects? | 17:55 |
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| Alexei_987 | profiler + client + other objects | 17:55 |
| boris-42 | yep | 17:55 |
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| boris-42 | it is not simple task | 17:55 |
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| boris-42 | So here is the part of Rally | 17:56 |
| boris-42 | http://pavlovic.me/drawer.html | 17:56 |
| boris-42 | visualisation | 17:56 |
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| boris-42 | I think during this week I will finish work around integrating it into Rally | 17:56 |
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| boris-42 | So we will need only patches in clients | 17:56 |
| boris-42 | patches for 2 core projects | 17:56 |
| boris-42 | e.g. nova/glacne | 17:56 |
| boris-42 | to show the demo | 17:56 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 yep? | 17:56 |
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| Alexei_987 | even 1 project should be enough for start | 17:57 |
| Alexei_987 | glance is not required I guess :) | 17:57 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 we need 2 | 17:57 |
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| Alexei_987 | ok | 17:57 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 to show that cross projects requests works | 17:57 |
| boris-42 | Alexei_987 not only cross nova services. | 17:57 |
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| Alexei_987 | well we'll be able to show it to display cross request rally -> nova | 17:57 |
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| boris-42 | Alexei_987 it is not enough for public=) | 17:58 |
| boris-42 | okay seems like times come to the end | 17:58 |
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| boris-42 | #topic free discussions | 17:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "free discussions (Meeting topic: rally)" | 17:58 | |
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| boris-42 | Any questions/thougths? | 17:58 |
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| boris-42 | Ok if somebody have any questions just ask it in #openstack-rally channel | 17:59 |
| boris-42 | #endmeeting | 17:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 17 17:59:53 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2013/rally.2013-12-17-17.10.html | 17:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2013/rally.2013-12-17-17.10.txt | 17:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/rally/2013/rally.2013-12-17-17.10.log.html | 17:59 |
| morganfainberg | o/ | 18:00 |
| dolphm_afk | o/ | 18:00 |
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| fabiog | o/ | 18:00 |
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| fabiog | I guess this is the last meeting of the year ... | 18:01 |
| dolphm | ayoung: gyee: bknudson: stevemar: o/ | 18:01 |
| lbragstad | hey | 18:01 |
| stevemar | o/ | 18:01 |
| dolphm | fabiog: ++ | 18:01 |
| ayoung | w00t | 18:01 |
| shardy | o/ | 18:01 |
| marekd | hi | 18:01 |
| dolphm | shardy: o/ | 18:01 |
| dstanek | hi | 18:01 |
| bknudson | hi | 18:01 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, | 18:01 |
| gyee | \o | 18:01 |
| morganfainberg | OMG MEEEETING TIME | 18:01 |
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| dolphm | #startmeeting keystone | 18:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 17 18:01:49 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is dolphm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:01 |
| dolphm | #topic Reminder: Hackathon January 15-17th @ Rackspace in San Antonio, TX | 18:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Reminder: Hackathon January 15-17th @ Rackspace in San Antonio, TX (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:02 | |
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| dolphm | feel free to book flights :) sounds like a couple have already been done | 18:02 |
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| morganfainberg | ooh, on vacation starting next week. (read: snowboarding trip!) | 18:02 |
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| dolphm | i'm curious if anyone has gotten a hotel in SA yet | 18:02 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: be careful! :P | 18:02 |
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| topol | dolphm, fly in the night before make the most sense? | 18:02 |
| gyee | dolphm, I'll know my status by end of the week | 18:02 |
| dstanek | dolphm: i have not, but i'm planning on just staying at the courtyard | 18:02 |
| dolphm | topol: that's what i would do personally | 18:03 |
| ayoung | Yeah there was one hotel walking distance to the office that seemed to make sense | 18:03 |
| topol | dolphm, stevemar and I are a GO! Contingent on you giving us a personal tour of the Alamo | 18:03 |
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| topol | dolphm, we will come in the night before | 18:03 |
| dolphm | topol: i shall personally point you to it on a map | 18:03 |
| morganfainberg | i have not booked hotel, but courtyard seems like the best choice | 18:03 |
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| dolphm | valencia is damned nice and downtown if you're into that, courtyard has free transport | 18:04 |
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| dolphm | so, pick your poison | 18:04 |
| topol | can we all pick the same hotel? Are we going with the courtyard? | 18:04 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, i'm leaning towards free transport since i'm still wokring on details to see if i am paying for this out of my own pocket | 18:04 |
| dolphm | topol: courtyard is definitely the easier & slightly cheaper option | 18:04 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, so les $ is my goal. | 18:05 |
| topol | morganfainberg I'll have a car | 18:05 |
| stevemar | cheaper is good | 18:05 |
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| dstanek | i would be up for either - the only thing i don't like about the Valencia is that i'll need a car and you have to valet it | 18:05 |
| dolphm | #link https://gist.github.com/dolph/5cfa70c02f5b141060c5 | 18:05 |
| morganfainberg | dstanek, ++ | 18:05 |
| topol | Let's agree on courtyard | 18:05 |
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| morganfainberg | topol, sounds good to me. | 18:06 |
| dstanek | i'll be booking my travel tonight | 18:06 |
| dolphm | topol: noted on the gist | 18:06 |
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| stevemar | any international guests? henrynash or jamielennox ? | 18:07 |
| dolphm | if anyone has trouble booking at the discounted rate, chase me down | 18:07 |
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| topol | dolphm, excellent | 18:07 |
| dolphm | i'm told there's not a group code, and that you have to call | 18:07 |
| jamielennox | stevemar: a little hard to justify for a hackathon | 18:07 |
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| ayoung | any reason not to take the Pear Tree hotel? Easy walk to the office | 18:07 |
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| ayoung | $80 / night | 18:07 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: frankly i wouldn't make the trip unless you're planning on staying longer than 3 days lol | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | jamielennox, you know you want to hop on a ~19hr flight :P | 18:07 |
| morganfainberg | for 3 days | 18:08 |
| dolphm | ayoung: i'm not familiar with it | 18:08 |
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| ayoung | https://plus.google.com/104227517689615970183/about?gl=us&hl=en | 18:08 |
| jamielennox | dolphm:, morganfainberg: would end up just sleeping through the whole thing | 18:08 |
| morganfainberg | jamielennox, i hear ya man. | 18:09 |
| ayoung | 0.5 mi, 9 mins | 18:09 |
| ayoung | Interstate 35 Frontage Rd/NE | 18:09 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung, either that or the shuttle from the courtyard, both seem reasonable and in the same-class of price | 18:09 |
| morganfainberg | for the most part | 18:09 |
| bknudson | dolphm: it's next to the red lobster | 18:09 |
| bknudson | by the home depot | 18:10 |
| ayoung | I hate waiting on shuttles. We're coders...and I won;t have the kids to keep me on a regular schedule | 18:10 |
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| bknudson | what's Shoney's? | 18:10 |
| ayoung | So we won't go hungry | 18:11 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: as i understand it, the shuttles have a regular schedule (they run 3 times a day each way) you just need to give the front desk a heads up that you'd like to be on it | 18:11 |
| dolphm | bknudson: a chain diner | 18:11 |
| ayoung | Marie Callendars | 18:11 |
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| dolphm | there's food within walking distance of rax, and we have vendors in house every day | 18:11 |
| stevemar | topol and i should have rentals - i think? | 18:11 |
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| topol | yes we will!!! | 18:12 |
| stevemar | we could car pool | 18:12 |
| morganfainberg | works for me | 18:12 |
| ayoung | Is there any reason not to go to the PearTree? | 18:12 |
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| topol | Im fine with either. I need to check what options pop up in our hotel reservation tool. will do that now | 18:13 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung, i think it is all personal preferance at this point | 18:13 |
| ayoung | It would be good to all be at the same hotel | 18:13 |
| ayoung | makes Logisitics easier | 18:13 |
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| stevemar | topol, nothing pops up :( | 18:13 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung, nod | 18:14 |
| ayoung | Link to the Courtyard? | 18:14 |
| bknudson | mordred road. that's weird. | 18:14 |
| dstanek | ayoung: i have heard that it's not a great hotel | 18:15 |
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| topol | whats rackspace's address | 18:15 |
| stevemar | Rackspace Hosting, 1 Fanatical Place, Windcrest | 18:15 |
| stevemar | topol ^ | 18:15 |
| stevemar | postal code 78218 | 18:15 |
| ayoung | "1803 E Sonterra Blvd, San Antonio, TX 78259" That Courtyard? | 18:16 |
| dolphm | stevemar: or 5000 Walzem Rd. (Fanatical Place was just built & named) | 18:16 |
| dolphm | ayoung: definitely not | 18:16 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: that's near my house though lol | 18:16 |
| dolphm | ayoung: http://www.marriott.com/hotels/travel/satca-courtyard-san-antonio-airport/ | 18:16 |
| ayoung | so I could get a ride in | 18:16 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: 8615 Broadway Street San Antonio Texas 78217 USA | 18:17 |
| dolphm | ayoung: there's a damn good coffee shop right there... | 18:17 |
| dstanek | http://www.marriott.com/hotels/travel/satca-courtyard-san-antonio-airport/ | 18:17 |
| dolphm | ayoung: (on Sonterra Blvd) | 18:17 |
| ayoung | After the Summit I am sick of Airports.... | 18:17 |
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| topol | stevemar, we can get an exception | 18:17 |
| ayoung | Never even made it past Kowloon | 18:17 |
| dolphm | ayoung: lol | 18:17 |
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| ayoung | Is the courtyard the Hotel of choice then? That alone is reason to book it | 18:18 |
| topol | 99$ courtyard is within budget | 18:18 |
| dolphm | ayoung: sounds like it | 18:18 |
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| stevemar | topol, i figured that, just never had the need to | 18:18 |
| dolphm | ayoung: there are a couple definites for courtyard | 18:18 |
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| dolphm | #topic Next Keystone meeting: January 7th | 18:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Next Keystone meeting: January 7th (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:19 | |
| ayoung | 6.2 mi, 2 hours 5 mins | 18:19 |
| ayoung | NE Interstate 410 Loop That estimate seems long | 18:19 |
| ayoung | ah, still set for walking | 18:19 |
| dolphm | anyone is welcome to use this time slot and have a meeting if you want, but i'll be AFK for most of the next two weeks | 18:19 |
| topol | Any hotels with a bedbug special??? | 18:19 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: walking is slow in texas | 18:19 |
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| ayoung | Biking route looks cool, | 18:19 |
| ayoung | 7.8 ,moiles, 48 minutes, WTF? | 18:20 |
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| bknudson | it's hot there and people move slowly | 18:21 |
| dolphm | bknudson: ++ | 18:21 |
| ayoung | Do they estimate based on a tricycle? | 18:21 |
| dolphm | cars ftw | 18:21 |
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| ayoung | My experience in TExas in January was that it is not hot....very not hot. | 18:21 |
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| dolphm | yeah, it'll be really nice | 18:21 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, s/cars/cats <xkcd plugin /> | 18:21 |
| dolphm | in the 55-70 F range at the moment | 18:21 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: lol | 18:22 |
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| * ayoung watches the snow fall outside | 18:22 | |
| dolphm | k, let's move on to actually important things | 18:22 |
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| dolphm | it's almost marekd's bed time | 18:22 |
| topol | stevemar, courtyard at the airport has an IBM negotiated rate. Is thatw here everyone is staying? | 18:22 |
| dolphm | #topic Leveraging mod_shib / mod_mellon to handle interaction with federated identity providers | 18:22 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Leveraging mod_shib / mod_mellon to handle interaction with federated identity providers (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:22 | |
| dolphm | marekd: o/ | 18:22 |
| marekd | dolphm: \o | 18:22 |
| marekd | still awake | 18:23 |
| dolphm | topol: yes | 18:23 |
| ayoung | mod_auth_mellon...I'll find the linlk | 18:23 |
| dolphm | #link https://code.google.com/p/modmellon/ | 18:23 |
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| ayoung | anyone tried it out yet? I know people in our IdM team have, but not me myself. | 18:24 |
| marekd | me, but not mod_mellon. | 18:24 |
| marekd | mod_shib. | 18:24 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, i haven't had a chance to yet. | 18:24 |
| stevemar | ayoung, marekd tried it out: https://gist.github.com/zaccone/914822d37ac2eea420ce | 18:24 |
| dolphm | mod_mellon seems to be pretty well packaged (debian, centos, rhel) | 18:24 |
| stevemar | we get a whole whack of stuff back | 18:24 |
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| bknudson | to use saml you need to run in apache? | 18:25 |
| marekd | yes. | 18:25 |
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| ayoung | #link reference http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1218:_Doors_of_Durin | 18:25 |
| dolphm | bknudson: ++ | 18:25 |
| marekd | another this is: is relies on static config files | 18:25 |
| marekd | mod_mellon for 100% - asked on their mailing list. | 18:25 |
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| marekd | (completely reasonable) | 18:26 |
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| dolphm | bknudson: i'd rather not re-invent the wheel in the next few weeks, but we could implement the same in middleware eventually | 18:26 |
| marekd | dolphm: ++ | 18:26 |
| dolphm | marekd: mod_mellon relies on static config? | 18:26 |
| marekd | dolphm: yes. | 18:27 |
| dolphm | marekd: does that imply that mod_shib doesn't? | 18:27 |
| marekd | dolphm: mod_shib uses files too... | 18:27 |
| marekd | i just said i am 100% about mod_mellon, because I asked it's authors. | 18:27 |
| bknudson | I assume that keystone is going to have to support more than just REMOTE_USER then? | 18:28 |
| marekd | however i have never seen any plugin for mod_shib + SQL/something. | 18:28 |
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| dolphm | mod_mellon is GNU GPL v2 | 18:28 |
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| dolphm | bknudson: ++, the federation middleware will have to read headers from the apache module | 18:28 |
| ayoung | bknudson, they should come through as additional env vars | 18:28 |
| dolphm | bknudson: see stevemar's link to marekd's example | 18:28 |
| marekd | bknudson: modules would do the job. | 18:28 |
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| marekd | bknudson: keystone would get set of parsed attributes. | 18:29 |
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| marekd | which is great, as I personally find SAML not very 'clean' atribute and would rather not write soft for parsing those all XMLs :-) | 18:29 |
| topol | GNU GPL v2. Isnt that like buying a hot rolex? A big no no? | 18:29 |
| marekd | topol: why? | 18:30 |
| bknudson | is it the ADFS_* attrs are the assertions? | 18:30 |
| marekd | yes | 18:30 |
| marekd | bknudson: ^ | 18:30 |
| dolphm | topol: considering the nature of our dependency on it, i don't know how much we need to care? worth asking the list | 18:30 |
| dolphm | bknudson: ++ | 18:30 |
| marekd | and as a matter of fact YOU configure in the mod_ how to make a initial mapping. | 18:30 |
| marekd | #link https://gist.github.com/zaccone/021203cab26c9e4b0baf | 18:31 |
| marekd | here is the code, that produced the output for my SP | 18:31 |
| marekd | (mod_shib) | 18:31 |
| marekd | but mod_mellon would work pretty much the same way. | 18:31 |
| ayoung | reference link http://www.freeipa.org/page/Environment_Variables | 18:31 |
| dolphm | topol: i'm looking for the license to mod_shib... can't find much | 18:31 |
| ayoung | SAML not yet made it in there, though | 18:31 |
| fabiog | topol, I think it is complicated to re-package that code, you need to use the same licensing model | 18:32 |
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| ayoung | http://code.google.com/p/modmellon/wiki/GenericSetup#Retrieving_attributes_from_mod_mellon | 18:32 |
| topol | fabiog exactly | 18:33 |
| dolphm | fabiog: i believe it's okay for us to support it, as long as we don't have a hard dependency on it | 18:33 |
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| marekd | anyway, using mod_* implies static configuration. dolph said it should be generated manually, one day we could add some code -> keystone would generate config based on the data stored in it's backend. | 18:33 |
| fabiog | dolphm, we need to be careful, because even re-distributing it could be an issue outside GPL | 18:33 |
| dolphm | fabiog: +++ | 18:33 |
| topol | fabiog exactly +++ | 18:34 |
| morganfainberg | why can't everyone use ASLv2 these days | 18:34 |
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| bknudson | so keystone would provide a way to map ADFS_* to roles? | 18:34 |
| topol | morganfainberg, preaching to the choir! | 18:34 |
| marekd | yes, mapping. | 18:34 |
| bknudson | and that's going to be some middleware? | 18:34 |
| marekd | bknudson: ^^ | 18:34 |
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| bknudson | is the config in a config file or in keystone db? | 18:34 |
| ayoung | ASL? American Sign Language? Didn';t realize there was an updated version | 18:34 |
| fabiog | morganfainberg, I think MIT License is also goo | 18:34 |
| fabiog | good | 18:34 |
| marekd | bknudson: what config? | 18:35 |
| morganfainberg | fabiog, prefer apache myself | 18:35 |
| topol | ayoung, out in left field again :-) | 18:35 |
| bknudson | or do we have something that translates ADFS_* to some keystone structure | 18:35 |
| topol | fabiog, we must have the same lawyers :-) | 18:35 |
| marekd | bknudson: mapping attributes, completely internal stuff, right stevemar ? | 18:35 |
| dolphm | bknudson: config for mod_mellon / mod_shib should be deployer-handled in icehouse | 18:35 |
| ayoung | Are we OK with mod_mellon as a starting point? Not a hard dep, but a way to get things moving? Put it to avote? | 18:35 |
| marekd | dolphm: ++ | 18:36 |
| fabiog | topol, in reality lawyers are all the same ;-) | 18:36 |
| dolphm | bknudson: config for how keystone handles assertions is basically in SQL for us, as we're exposing it to the API | 18:36 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: i'd like to answer that today, but can you find a license for mod_shib ? | 18:36 |
| bknudson | I'm fine going with an apache/external auth method. | 18:37 |
| topol | dolphm, I think you should ask if any concerns on the dev list or the OpenStack gods | 18:37 |
| jamielennox | is there a pros/cons for mellon vs shib? i've at least heard of mellon and i'm pretty sure it's packaged | 18:37 |
| marekd | dolphm: one thing, not sure if it's relevant: mod_mellon is a pure apache module | 18:37 |
| dolphm | topol: ++ | 18:37 |
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| dolphm | jamielennox: it's packaged | 18:37 |
| bknudson | looks like it will be a lot of work to reimplement all that ourselves. | 18:37 |
| ayoung | dolphm, I can., but I think we've found mellon is much more in line with what we are looking for. Let me see | 18:38 |
| marekd | dolphm: whereas shibboleth works slightly different: there is a standalone daemon, that does it's work, accessible on unix sockets or tcp, mod_shib actually is a frontend and communicates with shibd daemon | 18:38 |
| jamielennox | i think the external approach is good, one mod vs the other is just selecting the better i think | 18:38 |
| dolphm | ayoung: good to hear | 18:38 |
| dolphm | bknudson: ++ | 18:38 |
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| marekd | dolphm: on the other hand, i didn't find info about protocol for communicating between peers.... | 18:38 |
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| ayoung | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth_%28Internet2%29#Development | 18:39 |
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| marekd | guys, how determined are you to decide today? | 18:39 |
| bknudson | since there's potentially multiple providers, I think it makes sense to translate whatever they give us (ADFS_* attrs or whatever) to a keystone structure that keystone uses. | 18:39 |
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| topol | ayoung, yay that one is Apache 2 License | 18:40 |
| dolphm | marekd: i'd like to know about blockers on one other the other today | 18:40 |
| dolphm | so it's GPL w/ easy deployments vs Apache 2 w/ complicated deployment | 18:40 |
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| marekd | dolphm: IdP discovery. i am not sure it's stararized and whether both modules will work in the same way... | 18:40 |
| marekd | https://wiki.shibboleth.net/confluence/display/SHIB2/IdPDiscovery | 18:41 |
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| marekd | this is for shibboleth (grep for From a Known Home) | 18:41 |
| marekd | however i couldn't make it work or my shib :P | 18:41 |
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| dolphm | lol | 18:41 |
| jamielennox | bknudson: ++ keep the provider specific interface to a minimum | 18:41 |
| topol | marekd that joke went over my head | 18:42 |
| ayoung | The Shibboleth License, Version 1. | 18:42 |
| ayoung | * Copyright (c) 2002 | 18:42 |
| ayoung | * University Corporation for Advanced Internet Development, Inc. | 18:42 |
| ayoung | * All rights reserved | 18:42 |
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| marekd | topol: hm? | 18:42 |
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| dolphm | bknudson: sure, and you could probably abstract away the difference between _shib and _mellon eventually | 18:42 |
| dolphm | ayoung: wtf lol | 18:42 |
| ayoung | dolphm, looking for a short link | 18:43 |
| ayoung | but that was dated 2002 | 18:43 |
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| ayoung | MIT cached version | 18:43 |
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| marekd | th other thing i am worried veryy much is the client side. | 18:43 |
| marekd | wherever you google for SAML the use-case is a browser one. | 18:43 |
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| marekd | 'a client uses his WEB BROWSER and logs in' | 18:44 |
| bknudson | we're not going to have a library for python-keystoneclient to use? | 18:44 |
| marekd | bknudson: keystoneclient will be a big part in federation authn | 18:44 |
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| marekd | https://developers.google.com/google-apps/sso/saml_workflow_vertical.gif | 18:44 |
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| marekd | bknudson: if that was your question :P | 18:45 |
| dolphm | bknudson: keystoneclient can't pretend to know how to auth with all existing IdP's though | 18:45 |
| ayoung | https://github.com/sonian/shibboleth-sp2/blob/master/apache/mod_shib_20.cpp | 18:45 |
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| bknudson | keystone isn't going to provide saml assertions, only accept them | 18:45 |
| marekd | bknudson: correct. | 18:45 |
| dolphm | bknudson: correct | 18:46 |
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| jamielennox | marekd: what are you expecting the client to have to do extra? | 18:46 |
| bknudson | that's like step 8 of https://developers.google.com/google-apps/sso/saml_workflow_vertical.gif | 18:46 |
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| jamielennox | oh right, i know what you mean | 18:46 |
| bknudson | it's like you need a token from idp to get a token form keystone | 18:46 |
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| marekd | jamielennox: keep the session, handle HTTP redirects. | 18:46 |
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| marekd | jamielennox: that's for sure. | 18:46 |
| dolphm | bknudson: ++ | 18:46 |
| dolphm | bknudson: that's exactly how it works (SAML being the token) | 18:47 |
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| marekd | dolphm: to me SAML likes like a web-browser only protocol, seriously :( | 18:47 |
| morganfainberg | so we're using the standard SAML workflow instead of the EC or Proxy method? | 18:47 |
| jamielennox | marekd: session and redirects are fine, i'm not sure if we can handle pointing keystoneclient at any random idp provider though | 18:47 |
| bknudson | the client need to get the "encoded SAML response" (step 6) and send it to keystone server | 18:47 |
| morganfainberg | simply because EC / Proxy doesn't require redirects | 18:47 |
| ayoung | So..before we run out of time...I'd like to suggest we discuss https://blueprints.launchpad.net/python-keystoneclient/+spec/endpoint-versioning | 18:47 |
| dolphm | morganfainberg: ooh, what are the other two methods... | 18:47 |
| marekd | jamielennox: willing to talk after the meeting? | 18:47 |
| jamielennox | marekd: sure | 18:47 |
| morganfainberg | dolphm, Enhanced client and proxy. but the details i've drummed up are light so far | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | let me see if i can find that diagram | 18:48 |
| bknudson | jamielennox: maybe if we had idp plugins in the client ? | 18:48 |
| jamielennox | actually auth plugins will fix a lot of this anyway | 18:48 |
| dolphm | ayoung: we've talked about that elsewhere, extensively | 18:48 |
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| marekd | morganfainberg: SP and IdP doen't require direct communication, it's client who transport requests/responses. | 18:48 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, ah. i see. | 18:49 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, then it is OK if I go ahead an implement> | 18:49 |
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| ayoung | ? | 18:49 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: that's why keystoneclient will play a big role gere. | 18:49 |
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| marekd | s/gere/here | 18:49 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, that is standard, i think it's doable with EC or proxy though where SP -> idp is in direct communication | 18:49 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, like i said, the info on EC / Proxy methods with saml seemed very light | 18:50 |
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| marekd | morganfainberg: standard direct communication between SP<->IdP? | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | so might not be really usable. | 18:50 |
| atiwari | marekd, direct communication will be needed for artifact profile | 18:50 |
| dolphm | ayoung: no | 18:50 |
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| marekd | atiwari: can you say more? | 18:50 |
| atiwari | when SP wants to pull the SAML from IdP | 18:50 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: absolutely not -- all the prior art and design direction directly conflicts with everything this blueprint describes | 18:50 |
| ayoung | dolphm, nope | 18:50 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, http://appliedlife.blogspot.com/2007/06/saml-enhanced-client-or-proxy.html | 18:51 |
| dolphm | ayoung: search on the mailing list for discovery | 18:51 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, so long as we don;t lock ourselves into requiring version, we should be OK | 18:51 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, without it, we are stuck on v2 | 18:51 |
| atiwari | In the SAML artifact profile, artifact will not be provided to SP initially | 18:51 |
| marekd | atiwari: any links, docs for that? I never heard of that. | 18:51 |
| atiwari | artifact +> assertion | 18:51 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, people are writing scripts etc and its all based around the current endpoints coming back from the Service Catalog | 18:51 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: which is a terribly broken approach that we need to rectify and not further | 18:52 |
| ayoung | we just need to A) work around it until the v2 is deprecated B) do discovery, and C) stop telling people to put versions on their endpoints | 18:52 |
| shardy | ayoung: IMO all the client libs should be able to do version negotiation via an unversioned endpoint | 18:52 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: the reason everyone else is writing broken code is because we've failed to set the example | 18:52 |
| ayoung | but we need the workaround | 18:52 |
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| dolphm | shardy: ++ | 18:52 |
| ayoung | shardy, eys, but people can't change the endpoints that are in the SC | 18:52 |
| atiwari | marekd, link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAML_2.0#HTTP_Artifact_Binding but it is for the future | 18:52 |
| ayoung | I agree with all of this | 18:52 |
| dolphm | ayoung: this is not a matter of deprecating v2 | 18:52 |
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| ayoung | but still insist that we need a wrokaround or we are stuck | 18:53 |
| atiwari | may be we can avoid it for now | 18:53 |
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| morganfainberg | marekd, dolphm, though it looks like ECP might preclude using the apache mod | 18:53 |
| ayoung | wreakaround? | 18:53 |
| ayoung | reakhavocaround | 18:53 |
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| bknudson | so identity providers have a standard for authenticating? (SAML SOAP binding?) | 18:53 |
| ayoung | anyway, we need to assume that endpoints come back saying V2.0 at the end, or old clients are going to break | 18:53 |
| fabiog | dolphm, less than 10 min left ... | 18:53 |
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| ayoung | can we just be pragmatic here, so long as we avoid the pitfalls of the past? | 18:54 |
| bknudson | from http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Hu8FwD79TOo/RoK5RmNAebI/AAAAAAAAAA4/trnodJ9iZ9s/s1600-h/ecp-diagram.jpg | 18:54 |
| dolphm | ayoung: you're proposing we regurgitate all the pitfalls of the past | 18:54 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: to be honest, the more i read about saml, the more i ask aroung, the more i am convinced everybody has his standard :( | 18:54 |
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| dolphm | fabiog: not sure we're going to have time to discuss notifications, other than direct people to it | 18:54 |
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| marekd | bknudson: i dont see direct arrows between SP & IdP. | 18:55 |
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| morganfainberg | marekd, the arrow crosses the SP, SP is the Proxy via SOAP bindings | 18:55 |
| jamielennox | fabiog: i like the idea - not every extension can be implemented purely in a pipeline | 18:55 |
| dolphm | bknudson: SP never talks to IdP directly | 18:55 |
| morganfainberg | and directs the request to the known IdP | 18:55 |
| dolphm | bknudson: afaik | 18:55 |
| marekd | dolphm: ++ | 18:55 |
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| morganfainberg | in that diagram | 18:55 |
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| morganfainberg | well, ECP being the "smart" proxy | 18:56 |
| atiwari | dolph, "SP never talks to IdP directly" is not correct | 18:56 |
| fabiog | jamielennox: and currently the data is not in sync if there are any dependencies | 18:56 |
| dolphm | atiwari: feel free to correct me with an example | 18:56 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: directs the requests mean directs the client to go there, right? | 18:56 |
| jamielennox | fabiog: there are a bunch of extensions that i think will need to simply run and that shouldn't have a middleware component - is this how the other projects do it though? | 18:56 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, as far as i can tell, yes | 18:56 |
| jamielennox | nova must have this problem | 18:56 |
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| atiwari | but yes not in post profile , it is correct | 18:56 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: because i was referring to a direct TCP connection between IdP and SP | 18:56 |
| morganfainberg | http://docs.oasis-open.org/security/saml/v2.0/saml-profiles-2.0-os.pdf 4.2.1 | 18:56 |
| ayoung | dolphm, no, I am proposing we ignore the versions on the URLs | 18:56 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: and then i say : never heard about that (TCP conns) | 18:57 |
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| morganfainberg | erm 4.2 | 18:57 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: i got that much; don't do that | 18:57 |
| ayoung | we need to do at least that in order to get v2 and v3 interop | 18:57 |
| ayoung | dolphm, we have to. | 18:57 |
| fabiog | jamielennox: this is only for registered Keystone extensions, if you want a generic notification you can re-use the rabbitmq model | 18:57 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, i think this is super complex :P | 18:57 |
| ayoung | This is the corner we;ve been painted into | 18:57 |
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| ayoung | versions in the URLS are stupid, I agree | 18:58 |
| fabiog | jamielennox: but for the extensions that are interested only in Keystone this will be very efficient and simple (I think) | 18:58 |
| jamielennox | fabiog: yea i get that, i was just thinking that nova v3 is based around an extensions model and they must be doing notification like this | 18:58 |
| bknudson | is PAOS the opposite of SOAP? | 18:58 |
| ayoung | and this is not something we can be a purist about, or we will not be able to get rid of them | 18:58 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: i think this is overkill, seriously. i think i must check whether mod_shib, mod_mellon has ECP implemented. | 18:58 |
| marekd | bknudson: yes. | 18:58 |
| marekd | bknudson: whatever it means... | 18:58 |
| dolphm | ayoung: we put ourselves here; version discovery in the clients will push deployers to revise their catalogs | 18:58 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, lol | 18:58 |
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| morganfainberg | bknudson, i never noticed that. | 18:58 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: he is right :) | 18:58 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, i know. | 18:59 |
| dolphm | ayoung: have you seen the crap nova and cinder are doing? that's our fault too | 18:59 |
| ayoung | dolphm, Ifd we tell people to change the endpoints in their service catalog to either drop the version or have v3, it will break all of the v2 clients out there | 18:59 |
| fabiog | jamielennox: since I have extended the Oslo notification model, I believe it should be available to all the Openstack modules | 18:59 |
| morganfainberg | it makes sense, but i just... never connected it | 18:59 |
| ayoung | so discovery solves it in the future, but it doens't get the car out of the ditch | 18:59 |
| atiwari | dolphm, link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAML_2.0#HTTP_Artifact_Binding has good desc of artifact binding | 18:59 |
| dstanek | ayoung: can you just start accepting a version via HTTP headers and have the server redirect in the case where a version is in the url and a different one is requested? | 18:59 |
| jamielennox | fabiog: ah, ok, that's fine, i agree with the approach was just interested to know if you were re-using the concept from other projects or if we were going out on our own here | 19:00 |
| dolphm | ayoung: understood, but let's write the tools to make the problem non-existant rather than advocating a hacky approach that we've demonstrated is garbage | 19:00 |
| ayoung | dstanek, avoid using the word 'just' cuz no solution here is going to be neat or easy | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, i wasn't saying ECP was required, just wanted to ask if we were looking at it vs the "browser" style SAML ("traditional web SSO") model) | 19:00 |
| marekd | morganfainberg: ah, ok. | 19:00 |
| dstanek | ayoung: s/just // | 19:00 |
| fabiog | jamielennox: no not reinventing the weel, just connecting it to the rods ;-) | 19:00 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, and the reasoning is it _could_ support CLi nicely | 19:01 |
| bknudson | did nova / cinder ever ask us if they should have new service for different versions? | 19:01 |
| morganfainberg | marekd, but that is all speculation | 19:01 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, the problem is the old tools | 19:01 |
| ayoung | not new | 19:01 |
| jamielennox | time people | 19:01 |
| atiwari | time is up | 19:01 |
| ayoung | we go to great lengths to avoid breaking old clients | 19:01 |
| dolphm | jamielennox: ah, thanks | 19:01 |
| dolphm | #endmeeting | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 17 19:01:28 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2013/keystone.2013-12-17-18.01.html | 19:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2013/keystone.2013-12-17-18.01.txt | 19:01 |
| ayoung | we need to include the endpoints from the SC in the def | 19:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2013/keystone.2013-12-17-18.01.log.html | 19:01 |
| fabiog | all: merry christmas and happy new year! | 19:01 |
| morganfainberg | fabiog, wantt o chat about notifcations | 19:01 |
| jeblair | hi infra folks | 19:01 |
| anteaya | o/ | 19:01 |
| fungi | heyhey kids! | 19:01 |
| morganfainberg | fabiog, -> -dev | 19:01 |
| zaro | o/ | 19:02 |
| pleia2 | o/ | 19:02 |
| clarkb | o/ | 19:02 |
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| jeblair | #startmeeting infra | 19:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 17 19:02:31 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:02 |
| jeblair | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting | 19:02 |
| jeblair | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-12-10-19.02.html | 19:02 |
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| fungi | jeblair: before you go reassigning the tarballs action items to yourself, don't. almost done... | 19:03 |
| jeblair | fungi: oh cool, thanks. :) | 19:03 |
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| clarkb | ninja fungi | 19:03 |
| jeblair | fungi: how's the quota increase request? | 19:04 |
| jeblair | #topic actions from last meeting | 19:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:04 | |
| SergeyLukjanov | o/ | 19:04 |
| fungi | done. our openstackci account can go up to 25tb in rackspace now, and up to 100 cinder volumes | 19:04 |
| clarkb | fungi: awesome | 19:04 |
| jeblair | fungi: yaaay! | 19:04 |
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| anteaya | fungi: woohoo | 19:04 |
| fungi | i've added a 200gb volume for tarballs on static.o.o | 19:04 |
| fungi | rsync'd the contents in | 19:04 |
| anteaya | what did you say in the request? | 19:05 |
| fungi | checked out the vhost | 19:05 |
| fungi | lowered ttl on the dns record to 5 minutes | 19:05 |
| fungi | one minor cosmetic issue outstanding... can't get the new filesystem usage to show up in cacti | 19:05 |
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| fungi | restarted snmpd on static, re-ran the graph creation scripts on cacti manually, no good | 19:05 |
| jeblair | fungi: cool, so i think next maybe just put jenkins.o.o in shutdown mode so it doesn't generate new tarballs, then do an rsync/dns switch | 19:05 |
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| fungi | agreed. catch-up rsyncs are taking on the order of 10 seconds looks like, so should go quickly | 19:06 |
| clarkb | ++ | 19:06 |
| fungi | #action fungi move tarballs.o.o to static.o.o | 19:07 |
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| fungi | sligtly closer to tearing down the old wiki server | 19:07 |
| jeblair | almost there! | 19:07 |
| jeblair | #topic Tripleo testing (lifeless, pleia2) | 19:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Tripleo testing (lifeless, pleia2) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:07 | |
| jeblair | pleia2: anything to coordinate on here? | 19:08 |
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| pleia2 | I don't think so | 19:08 |
| jeblair | cool | 19:08 |
| pleia2 | I now have derekh's setup to test, but that's more on my side than infra just yet | 19:08 |
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| jeblair | pleia2: do you know if anyone has volunteered/been assigned to do ipv6 nodepool/jenkins work? | 19:09 |
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| pleia2 | jeblair: afaik, no one yet | 19:10 |
| jeblair | k | 19:10 |
| jeblair | #topic Savanna testing (SergeyLukjanov) | 19:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Savanna testing (SergeyLukjanov) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:10 | |
| SergeyLukjanov | hey | 19:10 |
| jeblair | SergeyLukjanov: anything new here? | 19:10 |
| SergeyLukjanov | everything is ok, waiting for review for tempest patches | 19:10 |
| SergeyLukjanov | nothing new atm | 19:10 |
| clarkb | SergeyLukjanov: the jobs are running though correct? | 19:11 |
| clarkb | SergeyLukjanov: they just don't actually test much yet | 19:11 |
| SergeyLukjanov | yup! | 19:11 |
| SergeyLukjanov | only api for node group templates | 19:11 |
| SergeyLukjanov | waiting for review | 19:11 |
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| jeblair | that's the best way to go -- things will be self-testing as they go into tempest | 19:11 |
| SergeyLukjanov | and then will add test for the rest api edpoints | 19:11 |
| SergeyLukjanov | hope to receive some reviews this week | 19:12 |
| SergeyLukjanov | tempest guys are very busy as I see | 19:12 |
| anteaya | tempest people | 19:12 |
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| jeblair | SergeyLukjanov: cool, thanks | 19:13 |
| SergeyLukjanov | btw we're starting using zuul+nodepool to run savanna-ci and I hope that will return back with some patches to support neutron in nodepool | 19:13 |
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| jeblair | SergeyLukjanov: yeah, that'd be great | 19:13 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | changes are pretty small atm | 19:13 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | and I'd like to start discussion about dib jobs | 19:14 |
| SergeyLukjanov | but I'm not prepared atm, so, let's do it offline | 19:14 |
| SergeyLukjanov | I'll try to prepare some initial queestions | 19:14 |
| jeblair | (though i hope you don't have to run savanna-ci much longer as we move things into openstack) | 19:14 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | jeblair, we'll need it to run slow tests | 19:14 |
| SergeyLukjanov | like sequential scaling of clusters | 19:15 |
| jeblair | well, as much as we can :) | 19:15 |
| SergeyLukjanov | yep :) | 19:15 |
| SergeyLukjanov | we'd like to have at least all tests in tempest | 19:15 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | and run them if needed in savanna-ci but from tempest | 19:16 |
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| * fungi imagines a 100-node hadoop cluster being spun up for each change | 19:16 | |
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| SergeyLukjanov | :) | 19:16 |
| jeblair | fungi: we'll need you to write more nice quota requests | 19:16 |
| SergeyLukjanov | we've tested 200 nodes clusters | 19:16 |
| jeblair | #topic Trove testing (mordred, hub_cap) | 19:16 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Trove testing (mordred, hub_cap) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:16 | |
| hub_cap | heyo jeblair | 19:17 |
| jeblair | hub_cap: heya! | 19:17 |
| hub_cap | so SlickNik has updates (hes working on the dib elements) | 19:17 |
| SlickNik | hey guys. | 19:17 |
| hub_cap | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/trove/+spec/trove-tempest | 19:17 |
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| anteaya | people | 19:17 |
| hub_cap | i think next hes going to work on the image caching, right SlickNik? ;) | 19:17 |
| SlickNik | I didn't have much of a chance to work on this last week, but I'm going to be working on this 100% this week. | 19:18 |
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| SlickNik | Yup image caching and devstack-vm-gate changes to run the tests. | 19:18 |
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| SlickNik | A couple of other folks from the trove team signed on to get started moving trove integration tests to tempest. | 19:19 |
| hub_cap | and we have some people from mirantis working on server side tests, and we have some client tests in a review (iirc) already | 19:19 |
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| jeblair | SlickNik, hub_cap: yes tarballs.o.o is where we will stick images we build | 19:20 |
| SlickNik | flying-bond (Debashish) and dlakunchikov (Dmitri) | 19:20 |
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| hub_cap | horray for progress | 19:21 |
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| jeblair | hub_cap: sounds good; any questions or blockers atm? | 19:22 |
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| hub_cap | none from myself | 19:22 |
| hub_cap | <3 | 19:22 |
| SlickNik | jeblair: none at the moment. I'll likely be bugging people for reviews this week, so stay tuned! | 19:22 |
| * hub_cap turns a prop radio nob | 19:22 | |
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| jeblair | cool, looking forward to it! | 19:22 |
| jeblair | #topic Jenkins 1.540 upgrade (zaro, clarkb) | 19:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Jenkins 1.540 upgrade (zaro, clarkb) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:23 | |
| jeblair | so that happened, briefly, then unhappened. | 19:23 |
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| anteaya | the reason for the unhappening was lost or truncated logs, was it not? | 19:23 |
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| zaro | so i'm trying to setup latest jenkins with scp plugin to see what happened there. | 19:23 |
| clarkb | ya it was sad | 19:23 |
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| jeblair | zaro: cool. clarkb and i have both worked on that plugin | 19:24 |
| clarkb | anteaya: correct, new version of jenkins didn't play nice with teh scp plugin console copying | 19:24 |
| anteaya | ah | 19:24 |
| anteaya | :( | 19:24 |
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| jeblair | zaro: i think if you write a job that emits 10 or 20k lines to the console, that will probably be enough to replicate | 19:24 |
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| zaro | yeah i have it setup in my dev env now, but having difficulties even getting plugin to connect to a server. | 19:25 |
| zaro | still working on it. | 19:25 |
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| jeblair | #topic Maven clouddoc plugin move (zaro, mordred) | 19:26 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Maven clouddoc plugin move (zaro, mordred) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:26 | |
| zaro | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/java-release-process | 19:26 |
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| zaro | haven't heard from sharwell since last wedn. 12/11. | 19:26 |
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| zaro | should we just go ahead with this? #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/58349/ | 19:27 |
| fungi | it looks like i need to go into the sonotype jira and open a case requesting a dedicated groupId, based on subsequent info from dcramer | 19:27 |
| zaro | fungi: yes, that does need to happen | 19:28 |
| fungi | zaro: so i think that brings us back to the etherpad i originally prepopulated with all the info they want in the jira ticket fields | 19:28 |
| anteaya | so is the situation that you were coordinating with someone and now someone else is involved in the process, with no access to the prior person? | 19:28 |
| fungi | need to figure out all the little details about our org.openstack.cloud.api | 19:28 |
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| zaro | fungi: i think you'll need to coordinate with sharwell on those fields. | 19:29 |
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| zaro | according to dcramer sharwell can provide access. | 19:29 |
| fungi | okay, i guess they need to match what's on org.rackspace.cloud.api? | 19:29 |
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| fungi | er, com.rackspace | 19:29 |
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| zaro | ohh, wait that's right this is a new groupId. | 19:30 |
| fungi | i'll find out | 19:30 |
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| zaro | then i think you can just make it your own. | 19:30 |
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| fungi | yeah, we have to ask sonotype to create it in maven central | 19:30 |
| zaro | i mean create it like new. | 19:30 |
| zaro | yes, you can probably create without sharwell or dcramer input then. | 19:31 |
| fungi | okay. do we request org.openstack.cloud.api or just org.openstack and then get the ability to create sub-ids i wonder | 19:31 |
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| fungi | i'll check with them | 19:31 |
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| zaro | i think former. | 19:31 |
| zaro | ohh definately former. cannot create subs. | 19:32 |
| jeblair | #topic Private gerrit for security reviews (zaro, fungi) | 19:32 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Private gerrit for security reviews (zaro, fungi) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:32 | |
| jeblair | (the zaro-fungi part of the meeting continues) | 19:32 |
| zaro | just got good feedback from fungi on the change. | 19:32 |
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| zaro | yes, nothing new ATM, just WIP | 19:33 |
| fungi | sorry it's taken me so long to find time to go over it, but i think it's close to what we need | 19:33 |
| zaro | good to hear! | 19:33 |
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| fungi | probably worth bringing to the group is whether we want to start it on latest gerrit rather than giving ourselves yet one more gerrit to upgrade from 2.4 | 19:33 |
| clarkb | I would be all for starting it on new gerrit | 19:33 |
| zaro | i think fungi mentioned that we should wait until 2.8 upgrade. | 19:33 |
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| zaro | or after 2.8 upgrade | 19:34 |
| fungi | well, or just build it on 2.8 (there's not a lot special it really needs for the workflow we outlined) | 19:34 |
| zaro | yeah, ++ | 19:34 |
| jeblair | yeah, i think for the moment we can say we'll target the rollout of security after we deploy 2.8 | 19:34 |
| fungi | but i'm fine with prioritizing the upgrade project, given limited resources | 19:34 |
| jeblair | i don't think we should try to run it on 2.8 while we're running regular gerrit on 2.4 | 19:34 |
| fungi | yep, totally agree | 19:34 |
| zaro | ++ | 19:35 |
| jeblair | though since we don't know for certain everything that will be involved in the 2.8 upgrade and timeline yet, we should feel free to revisit that... | 19:35 |
| jeblair | if it looks like it'll be 3 months till we upgrade and security is ready to go, it'd probabl be better to go ahead and deploy security on 2.4 and upgrade it too. | 19:36 |
| fungi | okay | 19:36 |
| zaro | cool. | 19:36 |
| jeblair | #topic Upgrade gerrit (zaro) | 19:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Upgrade gerrit (zaro) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:36 | |
| jeblair | speaking of | 19:36 |
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| zaro | Blueprint https://blueprints.launchpad.net/openstack-ci/+spec/gerrit-2.8-upgrade | 19:37 |
| zaro | Etherpad #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/gerrit-2.8-upgrade | 19:37 |
| zaro | jeblair: had a question in there about alternative to WIP plugin. | 19:37 |
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| zaro | also I’m blocked waiting for approval on #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/61542/ | 19:38 |
| jeblair | _david_ wrote up some text about the upgrade, so i copied it into the etherpad | 19:38 |
| jeblair | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/gerrit-2.8-upgrade | 19:38 |
| jeblair | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/openstack-ci/+spec/gerrit-2.8-upgrade | 19:38 |
| jeblair | and then annotated it with some of my thoughts | 19:38 |
| jeblair | fungi, clarkb: ^ that's probably worth a read over and your initial feedback too | 19:38 |
| fungi | adding to my list | 19:39 |
| jeblair | it has some deployment choices | 19:39 |
| clarkb | jeblair: ok bookmarking | 19:39 |
| fungi | zaro: on 61542 i think we were waiting for mordred to chime in, but he's been absent for a few days | 19:39 |
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| jeblair | yeah, if he doesn't vote this afternood, let's aprv | 19:39 |
| jeblair | afternoon | 19:39 |
| clarkb | wfm | 19:40 |
| jeblair | i'd like to continue the tradition of unanimous approvals of ssh access if we can. :) | 19:40 |
| fungi | agreed | 19:40 |
| jeblair | #topic Zuul release (2.0?) / packaging (pabelanger) | 19:41 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Zuul release (2.0?) / packaging (pabelanger) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:41 | |
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| jeblair | this might be stale... | 19:41 |
| jeblair | and pabelanger isn't here... | 19:41 |
| jeblair | #topic Open discussion | 19:41 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:41 | |
| pleia2 | if I could get feedback here, that would be useful: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2013-December/000515.html | 19:41 |
| zaro | can we circle back to clouddocs? | 19:41 |
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| pleia2 | working through publications, but we need branch names that make sense | 19:41 |
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| jeblair | pleia2: eek, i missed that mail, sorry. | 19:42 |
| zaro | not sure i got an answer whether we should just go ahead with https://review.openstack.org/#/c/58349/ | 19:42 |
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| jeblair | zaro: i think we should sit on it for now. | 19:42 |
| pleia2 | and I also confirmed that we have all history from https://github.com/openstack-ci/publications so it can be deleted | 19:42 |
| zaro | jeblair: np | 19:42 |
| fungi | pleia2: i think the concern originally expressed was that until we move those into branches in the new location (and out of old git commits in the history) they're not exposed anywhere easily consumable | 19:43 |
| pleia2 | fungi: fair enough, so we'll have that problem solved soon | 19:44 |
| jeblair | yeah, so let's keep ci/pub around until we finish the other branches | 19:44 |
| jeblair | and then delete | 19:44 |
| fungi | i think it's safe to hold off deleting from github until then | 19:44 |
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| jeblair | so it turns out that crm114 adds enough time to log processing that the workers got backlogged | 19:45 |
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| jeblair | i'm working on a logstash worker puppet module refactor that will let us colocate multiple logstash workers on a single host | 19:45 |
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| jeblair | to better utilize cpu there -- especially once we move the workers to rax performance nodes | 19:45 |
| fungi | oh, one other thing which sprang to mind for the tarballs move. the target path changes slightly on the new server, so i'll need to tweak the publisher location on jenkins.o.o for it after it quiesces | 19:45 |
| jeblair | and we'll add some more nodes as well | 19:46 |
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| jeblair | it would be swell if we could graph the gearman queue... | 19:46 |
| jeblair | clarkb: maybe we could have the log client splat that to statsd/graphite? | 19:46 |
| clarkb | jeblair: right I was thinking of adding that feature to geard directly | 19:47 |
| clarkb | jeblair: unless yo uthink that is better off living external | 19:47 |
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| jeblair | fungi: ok, is that a change to the publishers in jobs, or is it a change to the scp site in the global config? | 19:47 |
| zaro | fungi: will all the jjb jobs refer to static instead of tarballs.o.o now? | 19:47 |
| fungi | jeblair: the latter | 19:47 |
| jeblair | clarkb: hrm; adding it to geard has a certain elegance | 19:47 |
| fungi | zaro: they won't. the jobs stay the same because the publisher target stays the same | 19:48 |
| clarkb | jeblair: yeah may be generally useful to other geard users | 19:48 |
| fungi | zaro: jeblair: it's the "Root Repository Path" which i'll need to update | 19:48 |
| jeblair | clarkb: yep. we probably _don't_ want it for zuul though. | 19:49 |
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| jeblair | oh, and i've proposed two changes to zuul that should allow us to start using templates in layout.yaml will will make it much smaller | 19:49 |
| jeblair | https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack-infra/zuul,n,z | 19:49 |
| fungi | saw the titles, haven't had time to review yet but very excited by the promise they make | 19:50 |
| zaro | ohh that would be nice! | 19:50 |
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| fungi | oh, and stable/havana backports of the tox.ini sync are proposed now... https://review.openstack.org/#/q/branch:stable/havana+topic:tox-sync,n,z | 19:51 |
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| fungi | mostly working, sdague and mtreinish helped me on missing/broken prereqs in devstack and tempest | 19:52 |
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| jeblair | fungi: cool | 19:52 |
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| jeblair | anyone have anything else? | 19:52 |
| clarkb | fungi: is grizzly affected? | 19:52 |
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| fungi | clarkb: grizzly affected grenade upgrades to the havana patches, so there was some involvement there | 19:53 |
| fungi | for tempest anyway | 19:53 |
| clarkb | thank | 19:54 |
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| fungi | though havana and grizzly stable branches of most of the servers are back to being testable again as of this week | 19:54 |
| fungi | finally | 19:54 |
| clarkb | I don't have anything else | 19:55 |
| zaro | yep, all done | 19:55 |
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| jeblair | thanks all! | 19:55 |
| fungi | nothing else for me | 19:56 |
| jeblair | #endmeeting | 19:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:56 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 17 19:56:02 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:56 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-12-17-19.02.html | 19:56 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-12-17-19.02.txt | 19:56 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-12-17-19.02.log.html | 19:56 |
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| ttx | Anyone here for the TC meeting ? | 20:00 |
| mikal | Hi | 20:00 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 20:00 |
| jeblair | o/ | 20:00 |
| sdague | o/ | 20:00 |
| jraim | I'm here for questions on Barbican | 20:00 |
| * devananda lurks | 20:00 | |
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| ttx | russellb, markmc, annegentle, mordred/mtaylor, jgriffith, vishy, markmcclain, lifeless: around ? | 20:00 |
| markmcclain | o/ | 20:01 |
| russellb | o/ | 20:01 |
| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 17 20:01:30 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:01 |
| ttx | Last meeting for 2013 ! | 20:01 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee | 20:01 |
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| ttx | #topic Becoming a Program, before applying for incubation | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Becoming a Program, before applying for incubation (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:02 | |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-December/022202.html | 20:02 |
| ttx | Let's discuss this first, as suggested by sdague at last meeting | 20:02 |
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| ttx | So... the idea is to somehow bless the idea / scope / mission of a team or a project before it files for incubation | 20:02 |
| ttx | That way it can actually attract enough contributors to pass our ever-higher technical barriers to entry | 20:02 |
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| ttx | Which solves the chicken-and-egg problem we had with various recent incubation proposals | 20:02 |
| lifeless | o/ | 20:02 |
| ttx | Various solutions tossed in that thread: | 20:02 |
| ttx | 1. Reuse "Programs" for that (original solution proposed on the thread) | 20:03 |
| ttx | 2. Reuse "Programs" but make new ones go through a trial period ("emerging programs") | 20:03 |
| ttx | 3. Bless teams/missions, but don't call them programs yet ("emerging efforts" badge) | 20:03 |
| ttx | 4. Bless projects themselves rather than teams/missions ("emerging projects" badge) | 20:03 |
| ttx | 5. Don't bless, just set up an "Emerging projects" page containing prose describing the TC feedback on it | 20:03 |
| ttx | Comments / thoughts ? | 20:03 |
| ttx | (personally I'm hesitating between (3) and (5) at that point) | 20:03 |
| dhellmann | I'm starting to like 5 myself | 20:03 |
| jeblair | i think the suggestions on the thread to make this a very light-weight endorsement sound good. i think we should hold programs to a high standard, but if indicating that we think a project is a good idea and we'd like to encourage it helps, i think that's worthwhile. | 20:03 |
| jeblair | so i think 5 fits the bill | 20:04 |
| mtaylor | o/ | 20:04 |
| sdague | yeh #5 seems reasonable to me | 20:04 |
| markmcclain | I like 5 | 20:04 |
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| ttx | I'm fine with trying (5) as a first incremental improvement. I fear that won't generate enough visibility to make them reach critical mass, but we can revisit later. | 20:04 |
| russellb | sure, it's a pretty light weight step in the direction | 20:04 |
| russellb | yeah, we could do #5 for now, and more later if we feel it's necessary and justified | 20:04 |
| vishy | o/ | 20:04 |
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| lifeless | I don't think blessing something without substantial momentum makes sense | 20:05 |
| lifeless | tripleo only applied for incubation when it was already attracting developers | 20:05 |
| dhellmann | that's the difference between 3 and 5, right? | 20:05 |
| dhellmann | 5 gives us a way to avoid having multiple groups going off and trying to do the same thing (ceilometer and healthnmon) | 20:05 |
| lifeless | oh god yes | 20:05 |
| russellb | lifeless: tripleo applied to be a program, not incubation ;-) | 20:05 |
| ttx | dhellmann: yes, 3 in boolean, 5 is float | 20:06 |
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| markmcclain | 5 also doesn't necessarily pick a team only that the we like the direciton | 20:06 |
| lifeless | russellb: actually, we started before programs existed; our application was part of the 'oh yeah, we should change this' discussion AIRI :) | 20:06 |
| ttx | OK, I'll work on documenting the process around (5) | 20:06 |
| ttx | Additional question: should we still auto-create programs for incubated projects, or should we wait until they graduate to being part of the integrated release ? | 20:06 |
| ttx | It affects ATC/voting rights on one side, and what level of commitment we want "program" to actually mean on the other. | 20:06 |
| lifeless | I don't think an incubated project without a program makes any sense | 20:07 |
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| dhellmann | I agree | 20:07 |
| russellb | agreed | 20:07 |
| lifeless | if the project hasn't attracted the attention it needs to also qualify as a program, thats a red flag to me | 20:07 |
| dhellmann | the question of which program the project will be in should be part of the application | 20:07 |
| ttx | status quo would be "you shoudl have a program attached, even if that means creating it at incubation request time" | 20:07 |
| jeblair | yeah, keep programs for incubated projects -- it makes sense -- they are actively working on a deliverable and making measurable progress! | 20:07 |
| ttx | OK, all clear to me | 20:07 |
| ttx | I'll propose a change which adds a reference/emerging-projects page full of prose that will be published somewhere | 20:08 |
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| ttx | anything else on that subject ? | 20:09 |
| markmcclain | so the program springs into existence when they project is incubated? | 20:09 |
| markmcclain | or is the program incubated too? | 20:09 |
| * markmcclain isn't clear on the idea here | 20:10 | |
| ttx | markmcclain: unless the project is already part of an existing program yes | 20:10 |
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| ttx | we'd not have an incubation state for programs. We'd remove the program if the project fails to incubate | 20:10 |
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| lifeless | so what about | 20:10 |
| markmcclain | ttx: thanks for the clarification | 20:11 |
| lifeless | incubation requires a program that has been around for > 3 months | 20:11 |
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| lifeless | give the program time to get out of the float area and be real before incubating a project | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | I thought we just said we don't want programs without real projects? and "real" means incubated or graduated | 20:11 |
| ttx | lifeless: that means back to option (1) up there | 20:11 |
| lifeless | ttx: does it? | 20:11 |
| ttx | well 5+1 admittedly | 20:12 |
| dhellmann | where do programs without projects come from? | 20:12 |
| lifeless | 09:03 < ttx> 5. Don't bless, just set up an "Emerging projects" page containing prose describing the | 20:12 |
| lifeless | TC feedback on it | 20:12 |
| lifeless | oh, I see - emerging projects | 20:12 |
| * lifeless sits to think for a sec | 20:12 | |
| ttx | lifeless: you'd require that incubation wannabees ask for a program before filing for incubation | 20:12 |
| ttx | which is what the whole thread was about | 20:12 |
| * mtaylor doesn't understand the point of emerging projects vs. programs | 20:13 | |
| mtaylor | both require the TC to say "yup, that workstream seems great" | 20:13 |
| mtaylor | so both are a blessing, and we'll wind up wanting critera | 20:13 |
| mtaylor | criteria | 20:13 |
| mtaylor | we already have programs, and programs do not require any projects in the program to be incubated yet | 20:13 |
| ttx | mtaylor: (5) is a feedback, not a blessing. It's not yes/no | 20:14 |
| mtaylor | it's a blessing | 20:14 |
| mtaylor | it will be seen as a blessing | 20:14 |
| mtaylor | because it's official feedback from us | 20:14 |
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| lifeless | so - let me check constraints: programs that aren't /delivering/ something are problematic [what deliver means is open for debate]; new programs (implied by new projects) want blessing to ramp up interest faster; delivering something is then key; but we don't want to add things that aren't mature to incubation. | 20:14 |
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| ttx | mtaylor: except anyone can ask for that feedback and receive it | 20:14 |
| dhellmann | editing a wiki page isn't a blessing, is it? | 20:14 |
| ttx | mtaylor: see markmc's posts on the thread | 20:15 |
| lifeless | ttx: ok so I think 5 is fine : it's enough recognition to help force a collapse of the wave function from multiples to one; and its where things stay until they are really mature enough for incubation. | 20:15 |
| lifeless | at the point they are that mature there should be enough interest and multi-vendor collaboration to make a program non contentious | 20:15 |
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| ttx | mtaylor: 5 is different from 1-4 because the feedback is in shades of grey rather than black or white | 20:16 |
| mtaylor | I think it's overhead with no benefit. but I don't feel strongly enough about it to hold this up | 20:16 |
| dhellmann | I don't even think the TC needs to do anything for 5 other than direct people to how to edit the right page to list themselves | 20:16 |
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| ttx | mtaylor: also in the thread there was the concern of making sure a "program" came with some reasonable expectation of staying there | 20:17 |
| ttx | so it should not be granted to lightly | 20:17 |
| ttx | too* | 20:17 |
| mtaylor | the problem as I see it is that designate does things that we clearly want, and it works, and it's participating to a degree - but it's not quite ready for incubation | 20:17 |
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| mtaylor | so letting designate tell people that they're working on things solves nothing | 20:17 |
| mtaylor | and random feedback solves nothing | 20:18 |
| ttx | in the new world order, they would ask for feedback to the TC, which would be "very interesting, we want you, just mature a bit" | 20:18 |
| sdague | mtaylor: it doesn't? you don't think it drives people over there | 20:18 |
| dhellmann | so this page wouldn't be something anyone could edit, then? | 20:18 |
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| mtaylor | the actual probelm is the chicken and egg problem of resources waiting for blessing and blessing waiting for resources | 20:18 |
| russellb | a TC curated list of projects we like seems like a good page to be able to go to and see what's coming | 20:18 |
| mtaylor | sdague: no. I do not | 20:18 |
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| lifeless | but there are two sorts of resources right? | 20:18 |
| dhellmann | I thought the problem was groups not having enough publicity to gain enough contributors to meet incubation requirements | 20:19 |
| dhellmann | what are we trying to solve? | 20:19 |
| russellb | TC curated meaning at least we're keeping it up to date, and it doesn't have stupid crap in it | 20:19 |
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| mtaylor | I don't think it's publicity | 20:19 |
| ttx | mtaylor: I agree with you. I /fear/ that (5) won't give them the visibility they want either | 20:19 |
| lifeless | there are volunteers and there are foundation sponsoed | 20:19 |
| ttx | but i'm fine with giving it a try | 20:19 |
| mtaylor | most of our devs are corporate sponsored | 20:19 |
| lifeless | e.g. more people hacking vs -infra support when things go pearshaped | 20:19 |
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| ttx | markmc: o/ | 20:19 |
| mtaylor | which means that most of them come from product efforts - we want those to wind up in good openstack things | 20:19 |
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| lifeless | to get more people hacking, as mtaylor says, it's a corporate engagement issue | 20:19 |
| markmc | (sorry, family stuff) | 20:19 |
| mtaylor | so if it's not "OpenStack" - the people providing the devs are less likely in some cases to pony up the people - I think we're seeing this more and more now that we have so many projects | 20:20 |
| ttx | markmc: mtaylor was unconvinced by your prose page, and thinks projects want to be blessed | 20:20 |
| mtaylor | hrm. why am I mtaylor? | 20:20 |
| markmc | sure projects want to be blessed :) | 20:20 |
| ttx | mtaylor: good question | 20:20 |
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| lifeless | mordred: I thought you were trolling us :) | 20:20 |
| russellb | mordred: thanks, i was worried about you | 20:20 |
| markmc | there'll always be some point we're not prepared to bless them though | 20:20 |
| * markmc likes the idea of giving concrete feedback rather than ever fine-grained levels of incubating status | 20:21 | |
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| mordred | so, if it's not a mechanism for us to 'bless' an effort or a direction, I think it's a waste and we should just do nothing because I dont' think it will appreciably change what's going on | 20:21 |
| mordred | and just adding overhead for the heck of it is the last thing we need | 20:21 |
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| ttx | markmc: like I said, i'm fine with giving it a try, just fearing it won't get the projects what they want, so they will continue to rush incubation requests | 20:22 |
| markmc | people want to know what we think of e.g. Designate | 20:22 |
| markmc | what's our answer? | 20:22 |
| markmc | go read the irc logs ? | 20:22 |
| ttx | and preserve the chicken-and-egg issue we are trying to solve here | 20:22 |
| markmc | we might invent a "promising" status to give them and every other nascent project? | 20:22 |
| mordred | I mean, hell - let's try it - I might be wrong - I just think it's not going to work any better than the last time we tried it | 20:22 |
| lifeless | I think the real question is: | 20:22 |
| markmc | people just want to know what we think of it, how it's likely to proceed, what we think it needs | 20:22 |
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| lifeless | - do we want other companies to compete with e.g. designate or | 20:23 |
| lifeless | - do we want them to collaborate on e.g. designate | 20:23 |
| mordred | we used to have a special category for ecosystem projects - atlas lb wound up there | 20:23 |
| mordred | look at how that worked | 20:23 |
| russellb | is the "emerging projects" page proposed with #5 something maintained through the governance repo? | 20:23 |
| annegentle_ | mordred: do you sense that designate is getting stalled because of the tc or other factors? | 20:23 |
| russellb | or is it just a random wiki page? | 20:23 |
| ttx | lifeless: the latter, at this point | 20:23 |
| lifeless | And and *what point* do we signal to other companies that we want this to happen. | 20:23 |
| markmc | lifeless, whatever gets us a viable project, in the end | 20:23 |
| lifeless | Blessing is all about that. | 20:23 |
| ttx | russellb: governance repo | 20:23 |
| lifeless | markmc: ttx: It was a rhetorical question meant to frame discussion :) | 20:24 |
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| russellb | ttx: if it's in our repo, then it's sure going to look like a blessing to some degree, right? | 20:24 |
| annegentle_ | and I agree with lifeless's heart of the matter | 20:24 |
| markmc | lifeless, rhetorical question means implied answer - you just got two different answers :P) | 20:24 |
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| lifeless | markmc: :) | 20:24 |
| ttx | russellb: maybe. | 20:24 |
| lifeless | So actually I think that shows up the issue | 20:24 |
| lifeless | ... | 20:24 |
| ttx | OK, let's try it | 20:24 |
| lifeless | there are two big phases we go through for new projects | 20:24 |
| markmc | lifeless, an issue, for sure | 20:24 |
| lifeless | there is the thousand flowers blooming phase | 20:25 |
| ttx | nobody says it's wrong, seom people think it's not enough | 20:25 |
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| russellb | fair enough. | 20:25 |
| ttx | let's try it and see | 20:25 |
| markmc | if we were sure designate was absolutely the way forward, why not incubate it? | 20:25 |
| lifeless | where there are lots of independent attempts, some proprietary, some open and unaffiliated, some affiliated with openstack | 20:25 |
| sdague | ttx: +1 - I say try, and try to fail quickly if it's wrong | 20:25 |
| markmc | we're not - a community hasn't formed around it? | 20:25 |
| lifeless | and then we incubate one and it all changes - it's a phase transition | 20:25 |
| lifeless | I think the thing we're struggling with is just where we trigger the transition | 20:26 |
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| ttx | let's go to practical exercise now, Barbican. | 20:26 |
| lifeless | And having reframed it this way, I'm now changing my opinion on what we should do :) | 20:26 |
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| ttx | ow. | 20:26 |
| lifeless | ttx: go on, barbican ? | 20:26 |
| ttx | #topic Barbican incubation request | 20:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Barbican incubation request (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:27 | |
| mordred | markmc: how many of our projects formed a community pre-blessing? | 20:27 |
| ttx | lifeless: thought you were disagreeing with way forward | 20:27 |
| mordred | markmc: honestly | 20:27 |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-December/020830.html | 20:27 |
| lifeless | ttx: Oh I am | 20:27 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Barbican | 20:27 |
| russellb | and | 20:27 |
| dhellmann | mordred: was there a blessing for ceilometer that I'm not aware of? | 20:27 |
| russellb | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Barbican/Incubation | 20:27 |
| markmc | mordred, sure - that's what we want - and "blessing" becomes about recognizing that | 20:27 |
| mordred | markmc: I'm saying I think it might be unreasonable | 20:28 |
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| ttx | lifeless: so should we continue to discuss it ? | 20:28 |
| markmc | mordred, oh, I see - so, were we unreasonable not to bless designate? | 20:28 |
| mordred | markmc: no - I'm not saying that | 20:28 |
| mordred | I'm saying that we might have a expectation that projects are going to grow vibrant communities outside of our context, and I'm not sure we have much evidence that that ever happens | 20:29 |
| mordred | as we are a lovely incubator for community formation | 20:29 |
| jeblair | mordred: neutron, ceilometer, heat, trove, ironic, marconi, savanna, tripleo all formed communities before blessing. | 20:29 |
| mordred | jeblair: I disagree | 20:29 |
| mordred | jeblair: neutron was blessed by fiat back in the ppb days, heat was largely redhat, ironic was a nova splitout | 20:30 |
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| ttx | mordred: let's go back to this if there is tima at the end of meeting | 20:30 |
| mordred | ok | 20:30 |
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| ttx | so, second session on barbican | 20:31 |
| ttx | I don't think this week actually changed my view on this... quoting me from last week: | 20:31 |
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| ttx | <ttx> it looks like the scope of the project is well-defined and makes sense | 20:31 |
| ttx | <ttx> there are some concerns about team size/diversity and some work to be done before filling all the current requirements for incubation | 20:31 |
| russellb | though +1 for the team working quickly on the incubation requirements in the last couple of weeks | 20:31 |
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| ttx | I liked the recent discussions around whether it could belong to the Identity program or not - really appreciated | 20:31 |
| jraim | At this point, we've nailed down the technical reqs. Oslo.messaging has landed and after a rebase, pbr and global-reqs will land | 20:32 |
| ttx | ultimately barbican / secrets management warrants its own program... separate from identity/auth. | 20:32 |
| russellb | jraim: devstack-gate still pending right? | 20:32 |
| sdague | the relatively concrete tasks on testing (testr & d-g jobs) aren't done yet | 20:32 |
| jraim | russellb yeah, we needed pbr and globals first, which needed oslo | 20:32 |
| jraim | so a bit of a house of cards | 20:32 |
| russellb | k | 20:32 |
| jraim | testr is done in branch, but we need to work through the implications on our existing testing | 20:33 |
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| jraim | should be soon (tm) | 20:33 |
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| ttx | if I were to write feedback in prose, I'd say "we want that, and really close to meet technical incubation requirements" | 20:33 |
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| ttx | but then, I have concerns with team diversity. And I fear not blessing them in any way won't give them an easy way to solve that one | 20:34 |
| lifeless | so this is the bit mordred is talking about | 20:34 |
| lifeless | and in a way me too | 20:34 |
| jraim | I did ask some people that have expressed interest to say so on the list | 20:34 |
| jraim | So we saw some traffic from RedHat, HP and Nebula | 20:34 |
| russellb | it's cheap to express interest, though | 20:34 |
| lifeless | I think by saying 'you know, you're /nearly there/' we're well past the point where we want to see more competition | 20:34 |
| russellb | that doesn't mean a whole lot | 20:34 |
| sdague | so we just went through making technical requirements for the bar you had to pass to incubate | 20:34 |
| ttx | lifeless: yes, and why I think ultimately (5) won't give them enough visibility to reach critical mass | 20:34 |
| jraim | and we have an active contributor from eValut that strated recently | 20:34 |
| mordred | lifeless: ++ | 20:35 |
| lifeless | I think we're into the 'we want collaboration' phase of the lifecycle. | 20:35 |
| annegentle_ | the team diversity concern is why we are also discussing designate in a similar vein | 20:35 |
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| sdague | so I really think those a requirements to complete first, and the whole thing is sort of moot until that's checked off. | 20:35 |
| lifeless | sdague: some of our requirements are more social than technical | 20:35 |
| russellb | sdague: yeah but realistically they could have the rest of those requirements checked off by january | 20:35 |
| mordred | we're not questioning if we want this thing, and I don't think we actually are afraid it's going to top having devs this instant - I _do_ think that we dont' want to graduate it without a bunch of things | 20:35 |
| lifeless | sdague: and the team can't do /those/ on their own. | 20:35 |
| russellb | and then we're back to the team diversity questions | 20:35 |
| markmc | lifeless, honestly, if we're past the point of wanting to entertain any competition - it's time to incubate | 20:35 |
| jraim | russellb that's our plan | 20:35 |
| sdague | lifeless: sure | 20:36 |
| lifeless | markmc: I agree | 20:36 |
| mordred | markmc: ++ | 20:36 |
| lifeless | mordred: I was leading there gently ;) | 20:36 |
| sdague | russellb: also, sure, but if today is an incubation vote, then it should be a clear "no" | 20:36 |
| russellb | fair point | 20:36 |
| lifeless | bah | 20:36 |
| lifeless | markmc: ^ | 20:36 |
| russellb | so maybe the team diversity question should be more about graduation than incubation? | 20:36 |
| lifeless | russellb: yes! | 20:36 |
| russellb | sdague: yep, but might as well discuss | 20:36 |
| jraim | I think we would be fine picking this back up in Jan once we've merged the last technical bits | 20:36 |
| ttx | markmc, lifeless, mordred: so what you're saying is.. we should NOT have team diversity/size requirements in incubation requirements ? | 20:37 |
| lifeless | ttx: Size yes, diversity no. IMO. | 20:37 |
| sdague | jraim: yeh, realistically that's what I'm proposing. | 20:37 |
| jraim | But as people have said, the team composition probably isn't going to change by then | 20:37 |
| russellb | and add diversity for graduation, yes? | 20:37 |
| mordred | russellb: ++ | 20:37 |
| russellb | that seems reasonable i think | 20:37 |
| markmcclain | I think diversity should be part of incubation | 20:37 |
| ttx | lifeless: could you expand on that in a way that would be fair to designate ? | 20:37 |
| mordred | it takes time to grow team, and it takes a decent investment by devs to earn that team status | 20:37 |
| jeblair | i think diversity is important for incubation and we should hold our standards there | 20:37 |
| markmc | diversity is important, but more for graduation I think | 20:37 |
| markmcclain | otherwise we'll have large entities apply based on team size | 20:38 |
| mikal | Has anyone taken a look at if barbican is using all the bits of olso we think it should? | 20:38 |
| lifeless | ttx: rationale: If a company sponsors a project that we are convinced makes sense for the project technically and scope wise, and they fund it to a sufficient degree... meet technical merits, and stability... | 20:38 |
| russellb | well we'll have to look at relative contributions when looking at size | 20:38 |
| jeblair | incubation means devoting limited openstack-project-wide resources to a project | 20:38 |
| jeblair | and i don't think that's appropriate to do when a project has only managed to get contributors from one vendor | 20:38 |
| ttx | lifeless: i'm easily convinced in my evenings | 20:38 |
| dhellmann | jeblair: +1 | 20:38 |
| sdague | jeblair: +1 | 20:38 |
| markmcclain | jeblair: +1 | 20:38 |
| annegentle_ | ttx: must be the dinner wine | 20:39 |
| ttx | I'm with jeblair on that | 20:39 |
| mikal | Has anyone taken a look at if barbican is using all the bits of olso we think it should? | 20:39 |
| mordred | I think with some of the smaller projects we're not going to get contributors from other vendors until it's incubated | 20:39 |
| lifeless | why not? Ignore the single vendor aspect for a second | 20:39 |
| lifeless | If: | 20:39 |
| lifeless | - we want the project | 20:39 |
| markmc | I think there's a point between "single company dominated and controlled project" and diverse project | 20:39 |
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| lifeless | - we want collaboration at this point, not competition | 20:39 |
| mordred | and also - I argue all the time that nobody should care that I work for HP | 20:39 |
| jraim | mordred that's my concern | 20:39 |
| lifeless | - it's the only one being offered up to us | 20:39 |
| markmc | i.e. a "totally open and meritocratic, in excellent shape, crying out for others to come along and play" project | 20:40 |
| lifeless | => how is it inappropriate? | 20:40 |
| markmc | lifeless, diversity is important for long-term viability, is the point | 20:40 |
| jeblair | lifeless: it could indicate a lack of viability | 20:40 |
| ttx | lifeless: I guess it boils down to: do we want 2 stages of incubation (tech + social requirements met) or just one | 20:40 |
| lifeless | markmc: totally agreed, but the chicken and egg problem ttx describes is /all about collapsing the competition function/ | 20:40 |
| jeblair | it might suggest there's something about how the project is run so that others are having trouble participating; or it could mean no one outside of that company is interested | 20:41 |
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| mordred | HP funded infra single-handedly for a while - did that make any of us think that infra was somehow less OpenStack worthy? | 20:41 |
| dhellmann | right, if a project comes along in that state I wonder why that company hasn't *already* started trying to find other contributors | 20:41 |
| mordred | or did it mean that HP was the only one with a person who was fighting to put employees on it | 20:41 |
| lifeless | jeblair: it could, and thats the question. Monty doesn't see a lot - any - evidence that viability correlates with diversity pre-incubation | 20:41 |
| lifeless | in fact, I would point at neutron | 20:41 |
| ttx | mordred: I'd argue it's a bit of a corner case. | 20:41 |
| markmc | lifeless, so, do we do that only after diversity is achieved or in order to encourage diversity - that's the question | 20:41 |
| lifeless | and say that diversity is at best a weak predictor of viability | 20:41 |
| mordred | ttx: I wouldn't - geting FTEs on a project is hard | 20:41 |
| * markmc is okay with using it to encourage diversity if everything else is in great shape | 20:42 | |
| mordred | ttx: it's even harder when companies do not see product potential | 20:42 |
| lifeless | markmc: yeah, thats where I have circled around to | 20:42 |
| markmc | and we believe the project is truly welcoming, meritocratic, etc. | 20:42 |
| jeblair | lifeless: monty struck a number of projects from my quick list, but not all of them | 20:42 |
| lifeless | we shouldn't go light on /technical requirements/ | 20:42 |
| mordred | and they have a BUNCH of openstack projects to contend with - so if they have to choose between putting people on barbican or on nova ... | 20:42 |
| jeblair | i think we've switched back to the other topic. | 20:42 |
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| ttx | yes, let's stop for a sec | 20:43 |
| ttx | I think we owe barbical an answer | 20:43 |
| ttx | Barbican* | 20:43 |
| lifeless | lol | 20:43 |
| lifeless | I like the new name | 20:43 |
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| ttx | and I think it should be: come back to us when all tefchnical checkboxes are crossed, which should be anytime now | 20:43 |
| sdague | ttx: +1 | 20:43 |
| mikal | ttx: I'd like to dig into oslo and barbican a bit more if I could | 20:43 |
| lifeless | +1 | 20:43 |
| jraim | ttx That's fine with us | 20:43 |
| ttx | rather than rush the decision today while they are not all crossed | 20:44 |
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| dhellmann | is there an official checklist they are working from? | 20:44 |
| jraim | mikal If we take this back up in Jan, would that give you enough time to dig in a bit more? | 20:44 |
| ttx | jraim: hopefully we'll have gotten our mind together on the spcoam aspect in the mean time | 20:44 |
| sdague | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Barbican/Incubation | 20:44 |
| mikal | jraim: sure | 20:44 |
| sdague | dhellmann: ^^^ | 20:44 |
| dhellmann | sdague: thanks | 20:44 |
| mikal | jraim: mostly I want to dicsuss it and reach a concensus | 20:44 |
| sdague | twards the bottom | 20:44 |
| ttx | s/spcoam/social | 20:44 |
| mikal | jraim: but that can wait, so long as we do it before voting... | 20:45 |
| jraim | mikal that's fine. We're on #openstack-barbican if you have questions | 20:45 |
| ttx | #topic incubation vs. recognition | 20:45 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "incubation vs. recognition (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:45 | |
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| ttx | ok, back to the bazaar | 20:45 |
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| mikal | Heh | 20:45 |
| ttx | so, like I said, it boils down to... | 20:45 |
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| mordred | tripleo was all HP when it got accepted, trove only picked up a second vendor because of internal herculean efforts by jcooley, savanna was questionable as to real diversity but we made a judgement call | 20:46 |
| jeblair | mordred: i'm sensitive to what you're saying about getting companies to contribuet fte to a project; maybe you can help me understand how incubation helps there -- how does that make them see product potential and devote fte? | 20:46 |
| ttx | should we care about diveristy at incubation time | 20:46 |
| lifeless | mordred: we had sigificant rackspace and bluebox interest - even a couple patches IIRC | 20:46 |
| mordred | jeblair: yes, it does | 20:46 |
| ttx | jeblair says yes | 20:46 |
| lifeless | mordred: + some early redhat fixes | 20:46 |
| ttx | mordred says no | 20:46 |
| lifeless | mordred: but we didn't have any non-HP -core. | 20:47 |
| mordred | jeblair: because it makes them se that they're going to need to engage with the project coming down the pipeline | 20:47 |
| markmc | could we be more explicit about long term viability - e.g. identify things that could prevent diversity ? | 20:47 |
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| lifeless | jeblair: I would say it doesn't help them see product potential. | 20:47 |
| markmc | rather than making it a numbers game | 20:47 |
| mordred | jeblair: also, it shows them that it's more costly to do internal private dev than to collaborate with openstack | 20:47 |
| lifeless | jeblair: it helps them see where they need to collaborate vs wrap | 20:47 |
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| jeblair | markmc: a single vender changing their mind and retasking/laying off a team seems like a big risk | 20:47 |
| mordred | without that, it's the question of collaborating with 'random-open-source' - which does not carry the same weight right now | 20:47 |
| ttx | incubation triggers non-trivial support efforts from various programs in openstack... Should we require a minimum of diversity before granting those ? | 20:48 |
| mordred | jeblair: right. which is why I think it's _ESSENTIAL_ for graduation | 20:48 |
| lifeless | jeblair: the mindset many vendors have is 'we need X for our customers, is X part of OpenStack? No -> spin up a team and build it in-house. Yes? Collaborate' | 20:48 |
| mordred | lifeless: ++ | 20:48 |
| markmc | jeblair, oh, it is - it's extremely important for graduation IMHO | 20:48 |
| mordred | I think there is no dissent that diversity is required for graduation, actually | 20:48 |
| jeblair | mordred: half of our development infrastructure is now devoted to helping new projects bootstrap themselves in our environment | 20:48 |
| lifeless | jeblair: some orgs build it in-house and open source it (which is how e.g. designate came about AIUI) | 20:49 |
| sdague | so we should probably be giving our existing incubating projects a report card on how they are doing there | 20:49 |
| mordred | jeblair: that is true | 20:49 |
| lifeless | jeblair: others build it in-house and sell it as part of their offering. | 20:49 |
| annegentle_ | I'm with jeblair on concerns about halving resources just to help out incubating projects | 20:49 |
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| lifeless | jeblair: either way, the lack of a 'this is part of OpenStack' creates a void, which for some companies is an opportunity, for others a weakness | 20:49 |
| * mordred still points out that other companies are welcome to contribute FTEs to Infra - which would help | 20:50 | |
| annegentle_ | we've seen difficulty with large projects like neutron getting vendor support but not core support, so there's some nugget of concern about too much diversity too. | 20:50 |
| annegentle_ | jus' sayin' | 20:50 |
| lifeless | annegentle_: +1. Though I wouldn't say 'too much diversity', I would say thats a cultural norm issue. | 20:50 |
| sdague | annashen: I think that's a different issue | 20:50 |
| annegentle_ | I'm more leaning towards concerns about long term viability -- and user and operator uptake. | 20:50 |
| lifeless | annegentle_: We want a norm of 'we're all building this together' within teams. | 20:50 |
| sdague | lifeless: +1 | 20:51 |
| lifeless | not, a 'ok there is an API shuim and ALL MY GOODNESS IS PROPRIETARY' | 20:51 |
| jeblair | annegentle_: i agree, it does suggest that it's more than just numbers we need to consider | 20:51 |
| annegentle_ | lifeless: yes I like collab models better than compete | 20:51 |
| mordred | jeblair: ++ | 20:51 |
| mordred | or, annegentle_ ++ rather | 20:51 |
| lifeless | jeblair: so concretely, what I'm suggesting is tht when we - the TC - /want/ the project [vs it being pushed onto us] | 20:51 |
| lifeless | jeblair: that all the questions about infra resources etc are moot: we've already decided *we want it* | 20:52 |
| ttx | One question is, would we punt projects from incubation because they fail to get more diverse ? | 20:52 |
| lifeless | the questions that matter are: | 20:52 |
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| lifeless | - is it technically viable - all the stuff we seem to agree on | 20:52 |
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| lifeless | - and some thorny social assessment, do we expect it to play well with others and have good norms | 20:52 |
| lifeless | All I'm saying is that we can't really assess the second via a hard rule of 'X vendors involved' because of the dynamics of how vendors get involved. | 20:53 |
| lifeless | It's the heart of the chicken and egg issue. | 20:53 |
| ttx | lifeless: would you say we rejected designate on a diversity argument, or a size argument ? | 20:54 |
| ttx | mordred: ^ | 20:54 |
| markmc | I'd say both | 20:54 |
| markmc | diversity definitely came into it, though | 20:54 |
| markmc | if it was a larger team, it might have been a good discussion as to whether we could have passed on diversity | 20:55 |
| ttx | OK, 5min left, we need to move on, let's push that to a thread | 20:55 |
| ttx | mordred, lifeless: and since you seem to care about it, please participate to it | 20:55 |
| ttx | because nothing in the thread posted last week actually let us anticipate your concerns | 20:56 |
| markmc | heh | 20:56 |
| ttx | since you didn't post to it. | 20:56 |
| jeblair | looking at barbican's irc meeting logs | 20:56 |
| jeblair | http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/barbican_weekly_meeting/2013/barbican_weekly_meeting.2013-12-05-20.01.log.txt | 20:56 |
| jeblair | there are 78 lines | 20:56 |
| ttx | #topic J naming determination process | 20:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "J naming determination process (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:56 | |
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| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-tc/2013-December/000444.html | 20:56 |
| lifeless | ttx: I hadn't gotten to the heart of it before | 20:57 |
| ttx | Unless there are objections, I'll follow the SurveyMonkey route with the 10 candidates mentioned on: | 20:57 |
| lifeless | ttx: before the meeting it all sounded plausible. | 20:57 |
| jeblair | how do we determine the viabality of a community based on so little evidence | 20:57 |
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| lifeless | ttx: then new data -> ideas -> changed opinion | 20:57 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ReleaseNaming | 20:57 |
| lifeless | jeblair: perhaps we don't; perhaps we make it easy to handle failures instead? | 20:57 |
| sdague | ttx: +1 survey monkey | 20:57 |
| ttx | lifeless: apology accepted :) | 20:57 |
| mordred | ttx: ++ | 20:57 |
| annegentle_ | Survey monkey ftw | 20:57 |
| dhellmann | ttx: +1 | 20:57 |
| jeblair | ttx: wfm | 20:57 |
| notmyname | let's please not name a release after other major open source projects (jekyll) | 20:57 |
| lifeless | Jenkins! | 20:58 |
| ttx | notmyname: I actually got the express authorization from Tom Preston-Warner | 20:58 |
| ttx | that we can reuse jekyll in that context | 20:58 |
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| dhellmann | #link http://jekyllrb.com/ | 20:59 |
| * dhellmann doesn't think there's anything static about openstack | 20:59 | |
| ttx | Nick Quaranto also agreed there was no namespace overlap | 20:59 |
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| ttx | both were fine with us reusing it for a release cycle naùe | 20:59 |
| ttx | name | 20:59 |
| ttx | #topic Other governance changes in progress | 20:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Other governance changes in progress (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:59 | |
| ttx | quickly | 20:59 |
| lifeless | 60 seconds | 20:59 |
| ttx | Provide infrastructure for publishing docs to docs.openstack.org: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/61380/ | 20:59 |
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| ttx | This one is more technical than governance, so I'm fine with approving it once infra / Anne vets it | 21:00 |
| ttx | Attach extra ATCs to programs: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/62009/ | 21:00 |
| annegentle_ | so I don't get it | 21:00 |
| ttx | This one will be approved as soon as it reaches enough approvals | 21:00 |
| ttx | annegentle_: ask question | 21:00 |
| annegentle_ | is the proposal to provide only sphinx/oslo infra for publishing docs? or to provide sphinx/oslo infa for publishing governance pages that are considered sources of truth? | 21:00 |
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| jeblair | annegentle_: one of the things we talked about when moving the tc motions into git was that we could publish what we produce | 21:01 |
| ttx | the latter, I think | 21:01 |
| annegentle_ | that's at the heart of my comment about the commit message possibly being misleading. It made me read it twice. | 21:01 |
| sdague | annegentle_: it is providing infrastructure so that we can publish contents of the repository to the web | 21:01 |
| annegentle_ | if it's the latter, then why not publish to the wiki? | 21:01 |
| jeblair | annegentle_: so essentially governance is a doc repo only | 21:01 |
| jeblair | annegentle_: so the latter | 21:01 |
| sdague | vs. sending people to git urls | 21:01 |
| sdague | which is what we do now | 21:01 |
| ttx | annegentle_: because it's not really simpler | 21:01 |
| annegentle_ | I have concerns about publishing to docs.o.o: version tracking, keeping history, search capability, and where do bugs get tracked | 21:01 |
| ttx | ok, time is up, move discussion to corresponding review. | 21:02 |
| annegentle_ | git is a perfectly good publishing system | 21:02 |
| sdague | and I'm -1 to publishing to wiki automatically anyway, because a wiki is a rw medium | 21:02 |
| sdague | and this isn't | 21:02 |
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| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:02 |
| annegentle_ | wiki gives us the concerns addressed abo ve | 21:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:02 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 17 21:02:20 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:02 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2013/tc.2013-12-17-20.01.html | 21:02 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2013/tc.2013-12-17-20.01.txt | 21:02 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2013/tc.2013-12-17-20.01.log.html | 21:02 |
| annegentle_ | ttx: where should I continue to discuss these concerns? | 21:02 |
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| ttx | on the review, and in a -tc thread if that fails | 21:02 |
| dhellmann | annegentle_: this feels like a ML discussion to me | 21:02 |
| annegentle_ | dhellmann: ok | 21:02 |
| jeblair | annegentle_: it'll take an infra review to actually happen as well. you'll be on it. | 21:03 |
| ttx | dhellmann, dolphm, notmyname, jd__, markwash, jgriffith, russellb, stevebaker, david-lyle, markmcclain, hub_cap: around ? | 21:03 |
| dhellmann | annegentle_: I share some of your concerns, but I think we can address them by linking to git for the history | 21:03 |
| notmyname | hello | 21:03 |
| dolphm | o/ | 21:03 |
| jd__ | o/ | 21:03 |
| david-lyle_ | o/ | 21:03 |
| ttx | #startmeeting project | 21:03 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 21:03 |
| markmcclain | o/ | 21:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 17 21:03:32 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'project' | 21:03 |
| devananda | o/ | 21:03 |
| markwash | o/ | 21:03 |
| ttx | Agenda for today: | 21:03 |
| ttx | #link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/ProjectMeeting | 21:03 |
| kgriffs | o/ | 21:03 |
| stevebaker | \o | 21:03 |
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| russellb | o/ | 21:03 |
| ttx | #topic Icehouse-2 roadmap | 21:04 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | o/ | 21:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Icehouse-2 roadmap (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:04 | |
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| ttx | All looks good from our 1:1s | 21:04 |
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| ttx | we'll skip the next two meetings | 21:04 |
| ttx | and check back progress on the Jan 7th meeting | 21:04 |
| hub_cap | bam | 21:05 |
| ttx | #topic Gate checks (notmyname) | 21:05 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "Gate checks (notmyname) (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:05 | |
| notmyname | hello | 21:05 |
| lifeless | hello! | 21:05 |
| ttx | notmyname: hi! care to introduce topic ? | 21:05 |
| notmyname | here's where we start: | 21:05 |
| notmyname | I've been hearing (and experiencing) some major frsutration the the amount of effort it takes to get stuff through the gate queue | 21:05 |
| notmyname | in some cases, it takes days of rechecks. other times, it's merely a dozen hours or so | 21:06 |
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| notmyname | so I started using the stats to graph out what's happening | 21:06 |
| notmyname | http://not.mn/gate_status.html | 21:06 |
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| notmyname | and the end result, as shown on the graph above, is that we've got about a 60-70% chance of failure for gate jobs, just based on nondeterministic bugs | 21:07 |
| jog0 | notmyname: we also wedged the gate twice in less then 3 months | 21:07 |
| notmyname | this means that any patch that tries to land has a pretty poor chance of actually passing | 21:07 |
| notmyname | note that over the last 14 days, there are 9 days where a coin flip would have given you better odds on the top job in the gate passing | 21:07 |
| russellb | I feel like folks like jog0 and sdague have done a nice job watching this status and raising extra awareness for important issues | 21:08 |
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| russellb | there's plenty of room for more attention to some of the bugs, though, for sure | 21:08 |
| russellb | notmyname: but do you have anything in particular you'd like to propose? | 21:08 |
| notmyname | so I want to do 2 things | 21:08 |
| notmyname | (1) raise awareness of the issue (now with real data!) | 21:08 |
| notmyname | (2) propose some ideas to fix it | 21:08 |
| russellb | i feel like everyone has been very aware already :-) ... but your graph is neat | 21:09 |
| notmyname | which leads to other ideas, I hope | 21:09 |
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| notmyname | so for (1), I claim that a 60% pass chance for gate jobs is unacceptable | 21:09 |
| dolphm | ++ | 21:09 |
| markwash | +1 | 21:09 |
| david-lyle_ | +1 | 21:09 |
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| russellb | i don't think anyone is going to argue with failures being bad | 21:10 |
| notmyname | and I have 3 proposals of how we can potentially still move forward with day-to-day dev work | 21:10 |
| dolphm | can we gate on pass chance? :P | 21:10 |
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| jog0 | russellb: I would disagree with me doing a good job of raising awareness and watching status. we haven't been able to get the base line low enough and getenough bugs fixed. wehave been able to track how bad it is and prioritize but that isn't enough | 21:10 |
| russellb | jog0: OK, well just trying to give props where it's due for those working extra hard on things | 21:10 |
| sdague | dolphm: only if we can take people's +2 away from them for a week when they push a 100% guarunteed to fail change to the gate :) | 21:10 |
| russellb | your reports help me | 21:10 |
| dolphm | sdague: where do we sign people up | 21:10 |
| dhellmann | jog0: yeah, +1 to what russellb said, don't knock yourself for not having super powers | 21:11 |
| notmyname | russellb: yes, I agree that the -infra team has done a great job triaging things when they get critical. but let's not stay there (as we have been) | 21:11 |
| sdague | which was actually a huge part of the issue the last 4 days with all the grizzly changes | 21:11 |
| notmyname | first idea: multi-gate-queue | 21:11 |
| notmyname | in this case, instead of having one gate queue, have 3 | 21:11 |
| notmyname | Have N gate queues (for this example, let's use 3). In gate A, run all the patches like today. In gate B, run all but the top patch. In gate C, run all but the top 2. This way, if gate A fails, you already have a head start on the rechecks (and same for B->C). If gate A passes, then throw away the results of B and C. | 21:11 |
| notmyname | this is a pessimistic version of what we have today | 21:11 |
| markwash | sdague: I would love to drill down on that past your warranted frustrations | 21:12 |
| notmyname | idea two: cut down on what's tested | 21:12 |
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| jeblair | notmyname: i would be happy to have zuul start exploring alternate scenarios sooner, even ones heuristically based on observed conditions like job failure rates | 21:12 |
| jeblair | notmyname: that's not a simple change, so it'd be great if someone wants to sign up to dev that. | 21:13 |
| jog0 | proposal 1 doesn't help get things to merge, it just gets them to merge faster | 21:13 |
| notmyname | in this case, there is no need to test the same code for both postgress and mysql functionality (or normal and large ops) if the patch doesn't affect those at all | 21:13 |
| jog0 | or fail faster | 21:13 |
| notmyname | jog0: correct. things eventually merge today | 21:13 |
| jeblair | jog0: i agree with that. | 21:13 |
| notmyname | where eventually is really long | 21:13 |
| dolphm | jog0: faster dev cycle is always appreciated, at least | 21:14 |
| portante | and seems too long | 21:14 |
| notmyname | for idea two, I'm proposing that the set of things that are tested are winnowed down | 21:14 |
| russellb | i'm -1 on testing things less in general ... if things fail, they're broken, and should just be fixed | 21:14 |
| russellb | i don't think the answer to failures is do less testing | 21:14 |
| jog0 | notmyname: I am much more concerned about false gate failures then gate delay. if you fix false gate failure you fix gate delay too | 21:14 |
| notmyname | eg why test postgres and mysql functionality in neutron for a glance client test? | 21:14 |
| jeblair | notmyname: one of the benefits of running extra jobs -- evon ones that don't seem to be needed (testing mysql/pg) is that we do hit nondeterministic failures more often | 21:14 |
| markmcclain | I think testing less items is bad idea too | 21:15 |
| notmyname | in all cases, the nondeterministic bugs need to be squashed | 21:15 |
| mordred | the gate issues are actual openstack bugs | 21:15 |
| jeblair | notmyname: neutron was in a bad state for a while because it only ran 1 test whereas everyone else ran 6; it was way more apt to fail changes | 21:15 |
| jog0 | I would rather make it harder to get the gate to pass then have these nondetermistic failures leak out into the releases for users to experience | 21:15 |
| sdague | notmyname: yeh, we invented more jobs for neutron for exactly that case | 21:15 |
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| markwash | to notmyname's point, though. . we just recheck through those failures of actual nondeterministic bugs mostly, do we not? | 21:16 |
| dolphm | jog0: so you're opposed to option 2? | 21:16 |
| sdague | and I agree that race conditions need to be stompt out | 21:16 |
| dolphm | jog0: err, idea 2 | 21:16 |
| markwash | rechecking is just *slow* ignoring | 21:16 |
| jog0 | dolphm: very much so, we need more tests | 21:16 |
| notmyname | but the point is, if neutron jobs are still failing a lot, then they don't need to be run for every code repo | 21:16 |
| notmyname | s/neutron/whatever/ | 21:16 |
| david-lyle_ | all projects are gated on those failures, related or not | 21:16 |
| lifeless | uhh | 21:16 |
| jog0 | markwash: that is a problem | 21:16 |
| lifeless | I don't follow your logic | 21:16 |
| sdague | markwash: you need to stop thinking about those as non deterministic, they are race conditions | 21:16 |
| torgomatic | it's not a matter of "run less things because they fail", it's a matter of "run less things because they're not needed" | 21:17 |
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| markwash | sdague: agreed, both to me carry the same level of badness (high) | 21:17 |
| jeblair | notmyname: neutron even got so bad that we pulled it out of the integrated gate -- it pretty much _instantly_ fully broke | 21:17 |
| mordred | ++ | 21:17 |
| dolphm | what's the realistic maximum number of changes openstack has ever seen merge cleanly in succession? | 21:17 |
| notmyname | torgomatic phrased it better than I was doing | 21:17 |
| dolphm | 4? 5? | 21:17 |
| sdague | dolphm: 20+ | 21:17 |
| dhellmann | torgomatic: but they *are* needed because the failures don't occur all of the time, so we need as many examples of failures as possible to debug | 21:17 |
| jog0 | dolphm: I saw 10 recently | 21:17 |
| torgomatic | like, does keystone really need the gate job with neutron-large-ops? I don't think you can break Keystone in such a way as to only hose the large ops jobs | 21:17 |
| dolphm | sdague: wow | 21:17 |
| ttx | dolphm: I witnessed 25 myself | 21:17 |
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| lifeless | notmyname: if we don't run it, and there is any dependency in that thing on the other projects we let change, we have asymmetric gating. | 21:17 |
| sdague | it's not been a good couple of weeks | 21:17 |
| jeblair | notmyname: so we've learned that with no testing, real solid bugs (as opposed to transient ones) land almost immediately in repo. | 21:17 |
| jog0 | torgomatic: yes it does | 21:17 |
| sdague | we also had a lot of external events in these 2 weeks | 21:18 |
| lifeless | notmyname: asymmetric gating is a great way to wedge another project entirely, instantly. | 21:18 |
| ttx | dolphm: granted, it was full moon outside. | 21:18 |
| sdague | sphinx, puppetlabs repo, jenkins splode | 21:18 |
| jog0 | both nova and neutron use keystone so it can break neutron-large-ops | 21:18 |
| mordred | yup. we've seen that almost every time we've had assymetric gating | 21:18 |
| torgomatic | jog0: maybe a bad example, then, but there are other cases where the difference between two gate jobs has 0 effect on the patch being tested | 21:18 |
| dhellmann | I would rather spend the effort needed to figure out which subset of all our tests need to be run for any given change to fixing these race conditions themselves | 21:18 |
| sdague | dhellmann: +1 | 21:18 |
| russellb | dhellmann: +100 | 21:18 |
| markmcclain | dhellmann: +1 | 21:18 |
| jeblair | dhellmann: +1 | 21:19 |
| jog0 | dhellmann: amen! | 21:19 |
| * jd__ nods | 21:19 | |
| mordred | dhellmann: ++ | 21:19 |
| notmyname | ok, so option 3: enforce strong SAO-style interaction between projects | 21:19 |
| sdague | hey, look we even have a reasonable currated list - http://status.openstack.org/elastic-recheck/ - (will continue to try to make it better) | 21:19 |
| markwash | dhellmann: that's obviously better but I hope we *do* it | 21:19 |
| notmyname | Embrase API contracts between projects. If one project uses another openstack project, treat it as any other dependency with version constraints and a defined API. Use pip or packages to install it. And when a project does gate checks, only check based on that project's tests. | 21:19 |
| notmyname | This is consistent for what we do today for other dependencies. If there are changes, then we can talk cross-project. That's the good stuff we have, so let's not throw that out. | 21:19 |
| dhellmann | notmyname: SOA? | 21:19 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: service orientated archivetture | 21:20 |
| lifeless | dhellmann: what we have | 21:20 |
| notmyname | service oriented architecture. IOW, just have well defined APIs with the commitment to not break it and only use that | 21:20 |
| lifeless | bah, architecture | 21:20 |
| dhellmann | lifeless: I know SOA, I didn't know SAO | 21:20 |
| jd__ | you typed SAO :) | 21:20 |
| lifeless | oh lol, my brain refused to notice that | 21:20 |
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| russellb | so, version pinning between openstack projects? | 21:20 |
| notmyname | sdague: the problem with elastic recheck (which it is good), is that it's hand-currated | 21:20 |
| russellb | seems like we'd just be kicking the "find the breakage" can down the road | 21:20 |
| mordred | russellb: ++ | 21:20 |
| mordred | in fact | 21:20 |
| sdague | notmyname: it's 54% of all the fails, and super easy to add another one | 21:21 |
| mordred | when you wanted to update the requirement, you would not have been testing the two together | 21:21 |
| notmyname | well, what happens now for other dependencies? eg we don't run eventlet tests for every openstack patch and vice versa | 21:21 |
| portante | so then why are we not pulling sphinx builds into our jobs? | 21:21 |
| sdague | we approve them super fast | 21:21 |
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| markmcclain | I don't think we can use pip packages otherwise for projects with strong integration we run into issues landing coordinated patches in the master branches | 21:21 |
| notmyname | or sphinx, as portante stated | 21:21 |
| mordred | notmyname: those are libraries, not thigns that do SDN | 21:21 |
| dhellmann | the whole point of gating on trunk is to ensure that trunk continues to work so we can prepare the integrated release, right? | 21:21 |
| sdague | because sphinx isn't openstack | 21:21 |
| notmyname | markmcclain: that's exactly my point. it needs strong API contracts | 21:21 |
| dhellmann | for other dependencies, we should be doing the same gate checks on the requirements project (if we're not already) | 21:21 |
| mordred | it's more tahn an API | 21:21 |
| notmyname | dhellmann: it still woiuld | 21:21 |
| lifeless | notmyname: we want to run eventlet tests on upstream pull requests actually. | 21:21 |
| markmcclain | notmyname: those contracts evolve | 21:22 |
| lifeless | notmyname: thats a test-the-world concept that infra have been kicking around | 21:22 |
| lifeless | notmyname: so that we're not broken by things like sphinx 1.2 | 21:22 |
| notmyname | markmcclain: of course, that's where deendency versions come from | 21:22 |
| mordred | the longer we diverge between these projects, the harder re-aligning is going to be | 21:22 |
| mordred | it also makes it REALLY painful for folks running CD from master | 21:22 |
| markmcclain | we do integrated releases so we should the tests should be intergrated | 21:23 |
| ttx | yes, it's not as if dependencies did not break us badly in the past | 21:23 |
| russellb | mordred: painful as in ... we stop testing that use case completely :( | 21:23 |
| notmyname | mordred: yes. integration is hard, so it needs to be continually done. if something breaks, fix it. what I'm suggesting is that treating the interdependencies as more dcoupled things | 21:23 |
| mordred | russellb: yup | 21:23 |
| jog0 | so one of the problems we have seen is that gate has so many false positives that its very easy for more to sneak in | 21:23 |
| mordred | notmyname: but they're not | 21:23 |
| lifeless | mmm, from a CD perspective, I don't object to carefully versioned API transitions upstream | 21:23 |
| jog0 | we have a horrible base line to compare against | 21:23 |
| mordred | they're quire interrelated | 21:23 |
| lifeless | but | 21:23 |
| lifeless | I strongly object to big step integrations | 21:23 |
| mordred | lifeless: ++ | 21:23 |
| portante | mordred: how are they not? | 21:23 |
| notmyname | mordred: again, that's why I'm here talking about this today. we've got a problem, and I'm throwing out ideas to help resolve it | 21:23 |
| mordred | because these are things with side effects | 21:24 |
| lifeless | if we bump the API a few times a day, that would be fine with me | 21:24 |
| lifeless | but more than that and we'll start to see nasty suprises I expect | 21:24 |
| portante | things with side effects sounds kinda general, no? | 21:24 |
| mordred | there is a reason that side effects are a bad idea in well constructed code - they aren't accounted for in the API | 21:24 |
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| mordred | but | 21:24 |
| portante | would notmyname's idea really make things worse than what we have today? | 21:24 |
| mordred | sometimes they're necessary | 21:24 |
| mordred | which is why scheme isn't actually used | 21:24 |
| mordred | yes | 21:25 |
| mordred | it would make it worse | 21:25 |
| mordred | unless | 21:25 |
| markmcclain | portante: yes | 21:25 |
| mordred | you happen to not care about integration | 21:25 |
| portante | how will it make it worse from what we have today? | 21:25 |
| mordred | if you don't care about integration, it would make your experience as a developer better | 21:25 |
| mordred | portante: define "worse" | 21:25 |
| notmyname | mordred: I didn't see portante say anything about not caring about integration | 21:25 |
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| notmyname | (ever in fact) | 21:25 |
| russellb | point is, that's the case it's not worse | 21:25 |
| dhellmann | russellb: ? | 21:26 |
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| mordred | notmyname: I'm saying that delaying integration until we have larger sets of things to integrate is going to make it more likely to introduce isseus, and harder to track them down when they happen | 21:26 |
| mordred | I believe that will be worse | 21:26 |
| russellb | heh, mordred is saying it's worse, unless you don't care about integration | 21:26 |
| jeblair | notmyname: because the proposal would mean we would perform integration testing less, essentially only once and on abi bumps. | 21:26 |
| mordred | however, doing such a delay | 21:26 |
| jog0 | we rarely change APIs | 21:26 |
| portante | integration tests would still be run at the same rate | 21:27 |
| mordred | will increase the pleasurability of folks doing development if those people are not concerned about the problems encountered in integration | 21:27 |
| dhellmann | portante: how so? | 21:27 |
| mordred | not against combinations that would show you that a patch introduced an issue | 21:27 |
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| mordred | which means that your patch against glance has no way of knowing that it breaks when combined with a recent patch to keystone | 21:27 |
| mordred | when neither patches have landed yet | 21:27 |
| portante | we would still run the same job sets as we do today, that would not change, it just that we would be work with sets of changes from projects instead of individual commits | 21:27 |
| mordred | which means you have to BUNDLE all of the possible new patches until there is a new release | 21:27 |
| mordred | which means _hundreds_ of patches | 21:28 |
| jeblair | and then bisect those out when you have a problem | 21:28 |
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| jog0 | so I think this whole discussion is looking at things the wrong way. Gate is effectively broken, we don't trust it and its slowing down development. The solution is to fix the bugs not find ways of running less tests | 21:28 |
| mordred | considering that it's hard enough to get it right when we're doing exact patch for patch matching | 21:28 |
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| russellb | jog0: +1 | 21:28 |
| markmcclain | jog0: +1 | 21:28 |
| portante | but why would my patch break something else without also breaking the API contract? | 21:28 |
| jeblair | jog0: ++ | 21:28 |
| mordred | think about how much worse it will be when you only test every few huundred patches | 21:28 |
| mordred | jog0: ++ | 21:28 |
| dhellmann | jog0: +1 | 21:29 |
| mordred | portante: because it can and will | 21:29 |
| jog0 | one thing that would help, is make sure we are collecting good data against master all the time | 21:29 |
| ttx | jog0: I think notmyanme's point is that it cannot ever be fixed so you need new ideas | 21:29 |
| mordred | because that's the actual reality | 21:29 |
| jog0 | so if we have free resources, run gate against it so we get more data to analyze and debug with | 21:29 |
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| dolphm | mordred: ++; it's happened plenty in our history | 21:29 |
| sdague | jog0: +1 ... so basically the ask back is what do we do (me & jog0 ... as I'm signing him up for this) to get better data in elastic recheck to help bring focus to the stuff that needs fixing | 21:29 |
| jog0 | ttx: I am not ready to accept that answer yet | 21:29 |
| ttx | jog0: do you think we can get to the bottom of those issues ? | 21:29 |
| notmyname | ttx: no, not that it can't be fixed, per se. but that openstack has grown to a scale where perhaps existing methods aren't as valuable | 21:29 |
| jog0 | ttx: yes, it may take a lot of effor but yes | 21:29 |
| mordred | I think the methods are fine | 21:29 |
| mordred | the main problem is getting people to participate | 21:30 |
| sdague | yeh, agree with mordred | 21:30 |
| markwash | I think we probably need some sort of painful freeze to draw attention to fixing these bugs | 21:30 |
| mordred | introducing more slack into the system will not help that | 21:30 |
| portante | it does not seem to be about adding more slack | 21:30 |
| sdague | markwash: if only developers were feeling some pain.... ;) | 21:30 |
| torgomatic | markwash: more pain as the answer to gate pain? | 21:30 |
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| mordred | the fact that we al know that jog0 and sdague have been killing themselves on this | 21:30 |
| mordred | is very sad | 21:30 |
| mordred | and many people should feel shame | 21:30 |
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| markwash | torgomatic: yeah, in one big dose, to reduce future gate pain | 21:30 |
| portante | but targetting a finite set of resources on the point of integration | 21:30 |
| mordred | because everyone should be | 21:30 |
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| mordred | portante: it's batching integration | 21:31 |
| mordred | portante: which is the opposite of continuous integratoin | 21:31 |
| dolphm | was the idea of prioritizing the gate queue ever shot down? (landing [transient] bug fixes before bp's, for example) or was that just an implementation challenge | 21:31 |
| mordred | and which will be a step backwards and will be a nightmare | 21:31 |
| portante | mordred: if the current system causes developers to assemble large patches unbeknownst to you, isn't that the same thing? | 21:31 |
| jeblair | dolphm: we just added the ability to do that | 21:31 |
| jog0 | so we are tracking 27 different bugs in http://status.openstack.org/elastic-recheck/ and that doesn't cover all the failures. Fixing these bugs takes a lot of effort | 21:32 |
| sdague | dolphm: we have manual ways to promote now. We've used it recently | 21:32 |
| dolphm | jeblair: oh cool - where can i find details? | 21:32 |
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| torgomatic | it seems like we're saying that we can leave the gate as-is if we would just stop writing intermittent bugs | 21:32 |
| jeblair | dolphm: we've done it ~twice now; it's a manual process that we can use for patches that are expected to fix gate-blocking bugs, and are limiting it to that for now. | 21:32 |
| notmyname | portante: that's actually my biggest fear. that current gate issues encourage people to go into corners to contribute to forks. which is bad for everyone | 21:32 |
| sdague | this is the in progress data to narrow things down furthere - http://paste.openstack.org/show/55185/ | 21:32 |
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| torgomatic | and if we can stop doing that, let's just stop writing bugs at all and throw the gate out | 21:32 |
| mordred | notmyname: what forks? | 21:32 |
| mordred | notmyname: what forks of openstack are there? | 21:32 |
| dolphm | jeblair: is the process to ping -infra when we need to land a community priority change then? | 21:33 |
| mordred | notmyname: and which developers are hacking on them? | 21:33 |
| jeblair | dolphm: yes | 21:33 |
| dolphm | jeblair: sdague: easy enough, thanks! | 21:33 |
| hub_cap | mordred: maybe internal "forks" cuz patches take a while to land? | 21:33 |
| * hub_cap guesses | 21:33 | |
| markwash | mordred: I guess many companies run private forks | 21:33 |
| portante | mordred: no names, dont' want the nsa to take them out. ;) | 21:33 |
| mordred | portante: ;) | 21:33 |
| notmyname | hub_cap: yes. but to portante's point, it happens privately | 21:33 |
| hub_cap | portante: the nsa knows already | 21:33 |
| markwash | guesses the nsa runs a fork :-) | 21:33 |
| mordred | well, those companies usually learn pretty quickly | 21:33 |
| portante | its does!? | 21:33 |
| creiht | what company doesn't have a fork of every openstack component as they try to get features in? | 21:33 |
| russellb | private forks seem natural | 21:33 |
| torgomatic | alternately, we can accept that bugs happen, including intermittent bugs, and restructure things to be less annoying when they do | 21:34 |
| mordred | that getting out of sync signficantly is super painful | 21:34 |
| * portante smashes laptop on the ground | 21:34 | |
| russellb | and honestly just seems like FUD | 21:34 |
| notmyname | torgomatic: yes! | 21:34 |
| * jd__ smells FUD | 21:34 | |
| jog0 | many of the bugs we see in gate are really bad ones | 21:34 |
| russellb | jd__: jinx | 21:34 |
| jd__ | raaah | 21:34 |
| markwash | portante: lol | 21:34 |
| sdague | yeh, a lot of these races are pretty fundamental things | 21:34 |
| * mordred hands portante a new laptop that he promises has no malware on it | 21:34 | |
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| sdague | where compute should go to a state... and it doesn't | 21:34 |
| * portante thankful for kind folks with hardware | 21:35 | |
| ttx | the tension is because some developers are slowed down by issues happening in other corners of the project and over which they have limited influence | 21:35 |
| torgomatic | to that end, I think notmyname's first two suggestions are both good ones | 21:35 |
| russellb | ttx: and the dangerous response is to continue not to care what's happening in the other corners | 21:35 |
| lifeless | we're all in this together :) | 21:35 |
| jeblair | ttx: they don't have limited influence though | 21:35 |
| russellb | lifeless: yes! | 21:35 |
| portante | can we at least run experiments with the suggestions to play them out? | 21:35 |
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| sdague | honestly, in the past we keep going in cycles where gate gets bad, pitch forks come out, people work on bugs, it gets better | 21:36 |
| ttx | but if you take the viewpoint of openstack as a whole, some parts may be slowed down, but the result is better in the end | 21:36 |
| sdague | this time... the number of folks working these bugs isn't showing up | 21:36 |
| russellb | portante: which ones? #2 and #3 there were fundamental disagreements from many people | 21:36 |
| sdague | which is really the crux of the problem | 21:36 |
| markwash | one policy that might help: as we triage a race-condition based failure in the gate, we need to require unit / lower level / faster tests that reproduce those failures to land in the projects themselves and fail every time | 21:36 |
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| jeblair | i hit a transient bug on a devstack-gate change, and with some help from sdague we tracked it down to a real bug in keystone, i filed the bug, wrote an er query and moved on | 21:36 |
| russellb | #1 jeblair invited some help to zuul dev to add | 21:36 |
| jeblair | i think that was beneficial to the project | 21:36 |
| lifeless | so I proposed that gate affecting bugs be critical by default | 21:36 |
| jog0 | markwash: that won't work many times we don't know why something is breaking | 21:37 |
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| lifeless | I think the stats we have here suggest that perhaps that isn't a bad an idea as folk thought :) | 21:37 |
| portante | it is okay to disagree, can't hurt to try a few things to see they pan out | 21:37 |
| russellb | can someone ban d0ugal? the join/parts are really annoying | 21:37 |
| jeblair | and i was glad i could help even though i knew that my shell script change to devstack-gate didn't cause it. | 21:37 |
| ttx | russellb: I use them as a clock | 21:37 |
| jog0 | take the http2 lib file descriptor bug | 21:37 |
| creiht | what if we just turn off the gate for a specific project until they fix the bugs that are clogging it? | 21:37 |
| markwash | jog0: ah, okay. .yeah its only for bugs where we understand the race but its hard to fix | 21:37 |
| dolphm | ttx: rofl. russellb: can your client hide join/parts? | 21:37 |
| markwash | creiht: +1 | 21:37 |
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| russellb | dolphm: probably, but i don't want to hide the non broken ones | 21:37 |
| creiht | well prevent the project from any further patches until they fix gate critical bugs | 21:38 |
| markmcclain | creiht: that is a bad idea… we've done this before and it caused more problems than it solved | 21:38 |
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| jeblair | lifeless: ++critical | 21:38 |
| creiht | markmcclain: my first explanation wasn't as clear sorry | 21:38 |
| russellb | heh, and now we have a pile of critical bugs that the same small number of people are looking at | 21:38 |
| dolphm | creiht: not sure i follow - block that project from being tested or block that project from landing irrelevant changes? | 21:38 |
| russellb | just saying, that alone doesn't get people to work on them :) | 21:38 |
| creiht | block from landing any changes until the critical bugs are fixed | 21:38 |
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| lifeless | russellb: sure, but can't we also say 'when there are critical bugs, we won't be reviewing or landing anything else' ? | 21:38 |
| lifeless | russellb: like, make it really crystal clear that these things are /what matters/ | 21:39 |
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| russellb | lifeless: sure, something, just saying that labeling things critical doesn't do anything by itself | 21:39 |
| ttx | creiht: I think we have that option, yes | 21:39 |
| lifeless | russellb: ack, agreed. | 21:39 |
| jeblair | markmcclain: you've done that once or twice, right? prioritized critical fixes to the exclusion of other patches? | 21:39 |
| dolphm | idea: can http://status.openstack.org/rechecks/ be redesigned so that you can see the most impactful bugs per project the associated bugs are tracked against? | 21:39 |
| ttx | creiht: if we can really identify a project that doesn't play ball | 21:39 |
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| russellb | dolphm: have you seen http://status.openstack.org/elastic-recheck/ ? | 21:39 |
| dolphm | it's impossible for me to glance and that page and see where i can help | 21:39 |
| sdague | dolphm: yes, moving towards eliminating it with the elastic recheck dashboard | 21:40 |
| markmcclain | jeblair: yes.. we blocked approvals until fixes landed | 21:40 |
| jog0 | dolphm: keystone doesn't have any gate issues as far as I know | 21:40 |
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| dolphm | russellb: yeah, that's not what i want either | 21:40 |
| sdague | it just... takes time | 21:40 |
| dolphm | jog0: understood, but still | 21:40 |
| jeblair | sdague, dolphm: ++ | 21:40 |
| clarkb | jog0: it does | 21:40 |
| clarkb | the port issue | 21:40 |
| sdague | jog0: that's not true | 21:40 |
| creiht | ttx: it isn't about playing ball... if there are critical bugs blocking the gate, then your project gets no new patches in until that bug is fixed | 21:40 |
| jog0 | clarkb: link | 21:40 |
| sdague | it bounced stuff this morning | 21:40 |
| jeblair | dolphm, jog0: and the keystoneclient issue we found yesterday | 21:40 |
| dolphm | jog0: actually we do have a couple issues ;) | 21:41 |
| portante | creiht: if there are critical bugs blocking the gate from your project, then your project .... | 21:41 |
| creiht | yes | 21:41 |
| jog0 | in that case I think most integrated projects have critical bugs | 21:41 |
| jog0 | if not all | 21:41 |
| portante | great, so let's do that creiht thingy then | 21:41 |
| creiht | lol | 21:41 |
| markwash | I mean, maybe they all need to stop and fix those | 21:41 |
| ttx | creiht: in some cases it's not as binary as that. Some bugs take time to investigate/reproduce, and blocking the project that makes progress on them is probably not very useful | 21:41 |
| lifeless | ttx: so, I disagree | 21:42 |
| torgomatic | that approach acknowledges that bugs happen, so it's got that going for it | 21:42 |
| creiht | ttx: it seems more usefull then just letting status quo go on | 21:42 |
| lifeless | ttx: when you make changes there is a chance you introduce new bugs right ? | 21:42 |
| lifeless | ttx: or make the current ones worse! | 21:42 |
| markwash | race condition bugs are a good situation for tough love | 21:42 |
| portante | nothing changes if nothing changes | 21:42 |
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| notmyname | well, that brings up another point. elastic-recheck doesn't do any alerting to a project. maybe that shoudl be added | 21:42 |
| sdague | notmyname: agreed | 21:42 |
| lifeless | ttx: so if you have critical issues, changing things that aren't fixing that issue, is just fundamentally a bad idea. | 21:42 |
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| jeblair | notmyname: sounds like a good idea | 21:42 |
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| russellb | or perhaps an openstack-dev email for each bug that gets added? or would that be too much? | 21:43 |
| portante | public flogging? | 21:43 |
| lifeless | might be too little | 21:43 |
| russellb | heh | 21:43 |
| jog0 | notmyname: so one issue is many times we don't know which project the bug is in | 21:43 |
| sdague | we were talking about that, if we can determine the project, or set of projects where the bug is, it should alert those channels whenever it fails a patch | 21:43 |
| ttx | ok, I think we are not maling anymore progress now | 21:43 |
| ttx | or making | 21:43 |
| sdague | so people shamed into how often they are breaking things | 21:43 |
| notmyname | so what's next, then? | 21:44 |
| notmyname | ttx: ^ | 21:44 |
| lifeless | I don't think shame really helps | 21:44 |
| creiht | status quo! | 21:44 |
| creiht | :) | 21:44 |
| lifeless | noone wanted to introduce these bugs | 21:44 |
| markmcclain | the downside of public is shaming is that sometimes the initial point of fault could be incorrect | 21:44 |
| russellb | what's next? how to get more people helping fix bus? | 21:44 |
| russellb | bugs* | 21:44 |
| lifeless | right! | 21:44 |
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| ttx | practical actions | 21:44 |
| russellb | continued work to raise awareness of the most impotant things is part of it | 21:44 |
| jog0 | russellb: agreed | 21:44 |
| markwash | yeah, not about shame, just about how do we progress when there are criitcal bugs | 21:44 |
| russellb | and i think some ideas are being tossed around for that right now | 21:44 |
| lifeless | is everyone raising their gate critical bugs in each weekly meeting ? | 21:45 |
| russellb | and then what hammers are available when not enough progress is made, and when we do we use them | 21:45 |
| ttx | notmyname: I think everyone agreed your suggestion 1 was interesting, just missing dev manpower to make it happen | 21:45 |
| russellb | and i'm not sure we have good answers for that part yet | 21:45 |
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| lifeless | Like as a dedicated section? And getting volunteers to work on them ? | 21:45 |
| ttx | (the multigate thing) | 21:45 |
| markmcclain | lifeless: it's the 1st real item in our meeting each week | 21:45 |
| torgomatic | some of us are giant fans of suggestion 2 as well | 21:45 |
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| torgomatic | (suggestion 2 is removing redundant gate jobs) | 21:46 |
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| markmcclain | torgomatic: no the extra data points are very helpful for diagnosing some the race conditions | 21:46 |
| lifeless | torgomatic: what redundant jobs? | 21:46 |
| ttx | I think that one was far from consensual | 21:46 |
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| markmcclain | it also helps us to prioritize based on frequency | 21:46 |
| markwash | I think we should just have a post-gate master integration job that is wired up to a thermonuclear device. . when the failure rate hits 50% it blows | 21:46 |
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| lifeless | markwash: sweet | 21:46 |
| russellb | ttx: if anything, more consensus on "no" for 2 and 3 IMO | 21:46 |
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| torgomatic | lifeless: like running devstack 5 times against every project, when there's not always a way for that project's patches to break stuff | 21:47 |
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| torgomatic | well, not only for one | 21:47 |
| torgomatic | I meant to say | 21:47 |
| lifeless | torgomatic: yes, your analysis is missing something | 21:47 |
| lifeless | torgomatic: which we disucussed | 21:47 |
| jog0 | https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack/+bugs?search=Search&field.importance=Critical&field.status=New&field.status=Incomplete&field.status=Confirmed&field.status=Triaged&field.status=In+Progress&field.status=Fix+Committed | 21:47 |
| russellb | don't want to rehash it | 21:47 |
| lifeless | torgomatic: whic his that the break relationship is often bidirectional, and transitive. | 21:47 |
| torgomatic | as in, I'm sure I can write a Swift patch that breaks devstack for everything, but I cannot write one that only breaks devstack-neutron-large-ops | 21:47 |
| jog0 | 117 critical bugs | 21:47 |
| jog0 | torgomatic: yes you can | 21:47 |
| torgomatic | jog0: great, please provide an existence proof in the form of a patch | 21:48 |
| lifeless | lets get out of the rabbit hole | 21:48 |
| jog0 | put some timeouts in swift to make things super slow for glance | 21:48 |
| lifeless | back to how do we get more people working on critical bugs | 21:48 |
| jeblair | btw, some projects have started tagging bugs with 'gate-failure' which can help folks searching for these bugs | 21:48 |
| sdague | jog0: yuo probably want to remove git committed | 21:48 |
| markwash | s/git/fix/ | 21:49 |
| russellb | which brings it to 44 | 21:49 |
| ttx | lifeless: suggestions ? | 21:49 |
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| lifeless | jog0: that includes non integrated project | 21:49 |
| ttx | We shall soon move on to the rest of the meeting content | 21:49 |
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| jog0 | lifeless: yeah, do you have a better link? | 21:49 |
| lifeless | jog0: not in time for the meeting | 21:50 |
| lifeless | jog0: LP limittion | 21:50 |
| ttx | I see no reason why we can't continue to discuss this on the ML, btw | 21:50 |
| ttx | Everyone agrees it's an issue | 21:50 |
| ttx | Just absence of convergence on solutions | 21:50 |
| russellb | let's fix it, and not by doing less testing of the continuous or the integrated varieties. | 21:50 |
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| ttx | except suggestion 1 which was pretty consensual | 21:51 |
| ttx | just missing resources to make it happen | 21:51 |
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| sdague | yeh, that's going to require dev resources on zuul | 21:51 |
| sdague | but jeblair said he'd be happy to entertain those adaptive algorithms | 21:52 |
| jeblair | and it's worth remembering, that's just speeding up the failures. | 21:52 |
| jog0 | so I am not too keen on the first idea | 21:52 |
| jog0 | actually | 21:52 |
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| jog0 | I think we can use the compute and human resources much better | 21:52 |
| russellb | jog0: I don't think it hurts, while the others arguably do hurt | 21:52 |
| jog0 | if we fix gate issue one goes away | 21:52 |
| sdague | well honestly, it also requires effort | 21:52 |
| jeblair | russellb: ++ | 21:52 |
| sdague | so if someone is signing up for it, cool. If people are just "someone else should do it" then it won't happen | 21:52 |
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| markwash | it seems like idea #1 is just tuning the existing optimizations we have in place, not sure why it would be bad if someone showed up with a patch? | 21:53 |
| russellb | like most things :) | 21:53 |
| ttx | ok, 7 minutes left let's move on | 21:53 |
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| ttx | #topic Red Flag District / Blocked blueprints | 21:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Red Flag District / Blocked blueprints (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:53 | |
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| russellb | i like this new cross project meeting style :) | 21:53 |
| russellb | we never had time for stuff like this before | 21:53 |
| portante | exciting | 21:53 |
| ttx | No blocked blueprint afaict | 21:54 |
| ttx | russellb: yes, we used to put that dust under carpets | 21:54 |
| ttx | at least we now voice the anger | 21:54 |
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| ttx | "put the dead fish on the table" | 21:54 |
| * markwash googles | 21:54 | |
| notmyname | ttx: I don't think "anger" is the right word | 21:54 |
| * jeblair thinks a failed patch in the queue should be called a dead fish | 21:55 | |
| russellb | jeblair: so the red circle in the zuul status page should be a dead fish instead? | 21:55 |
| notmyname | I think there is frustration, but there is quite a bit of grace given to the current state of things by those who are frsustrated | 21:55 |
| ttx | we still have a conflict between heat and keystone around service-scoped-role-definition | 21:55 |
| jeblair | russellb: with little stink lines | 21:55 |
| ttx | notmyname: yes, frustration ius a better term, sorry | 21:55 |
| ttx | heat/management-api still needs keystone/service-scoped-role-definition | 21:56 |
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| ttx | stevebaker, dolphm: did you solve it ? | 21:56 |
| stevebaker | ttx: that dep should be removed | 21:56 |
| dolphm | i followed up on that last week - heat really shouldn't be blocked on that | 21:56 |
| ttx | stevebaker: ah, great | 21:56 |
| dolphm | although heat *could* take advantage of it- and i understand the desire to | 21:56 |
| stevebaker | i thought I did that | 21:56 |
| creiht | notmyname: well said | 21:56 |
| ttx | stevebaker: yep it's removed now, thx | 21:57 |
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| ttx | Any other blocked work that this meeting could try to help unblock ? | 21:57 |
| ttx | I'll take that as a "no" | 21:58 |
| ttx | #topic Incubated projects | 21:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Incubated projects (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:58 | |
| ttx | devananda, kgriffs, SergeyLukjanov: around ? any question ? | 21:58 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, I'm here | 21:59 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, no questions atm | 21:59 |
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| kgriffs | no questions here | 21:59 |
| devananda | aside from wondering how much slower development on ironic will be when we get integration testing .... nope :) | 21:59 |
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| kgriffs | +1 for raising the bar on code quality | 21:59 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, first working code of heat integration already landed, waiting for reviews on tempest patches | 21:59 |
| ttx | kgriffs: had a question for you about when you wanted to switch to release amnagement handling your milestones | 21:59 |
| kgriffs | ah, great question | 22:00 |
| kgriffs | tbh, I don't have a good feel for what that entails | 22:00 |
| ttx | I see your i1 is still open | 22:00 |
| ttx | kgriffs: we should talk. Will ping you tomorrow ? | 22:00 |
| kgriffs | hmm. Thought I closed it. | 22:00 |
| * kgriffs hides | 22:00 | |
| kgriffs | ttx: sounds good | 22:00 |
| ttx | kgriffs: it's inactive but it looks in progress :) | 22:00 |
| kgriffs | I've been trying to move closer to tracking the i milestones, so this is timely | 22:00 |
| kgriffs | ttx: oic | 22:01 |
| ttx | kgriffs: awesome, talk to you tomorrow | 22:01 |
| kgriffs | kk | 22:01 |
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| ttx | and.. time is up | 22:01 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 22:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 22:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 17 22:01:16 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 22:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2013/project.2013-12-17-21.03.html | 22:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2013/project.2013-12-17-21.03.txt | 22:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2013/project.2013-12-17-21.03.log.html | 22:01 |
| ttx | Thanks everyone | 22:01 |
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| david-lyle_ | #startmeeting Horizon | 22:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Dec 17 22:02:02 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is david-lyle_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 22:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 22:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Horizon)" | 22:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'horizon' | 22:02 |
| jcoufal | o/ hi | 22:02 |
| lsmola_ | hello | 22:02 |
| david-lyle_ | Hello everyone | 22:02 |
| jtomasek | hi | 22:02 |
| jpich | hey | 22:02 |
| kspear | howdy | 22:02 |
| ohnoimdead | o/ | 22:02 |
| lblanchard | hi all | 22:02 |
| MaxV | hi | 22:02 |
| mrunge | o/ | 22:02 |
| tzumainn | hiya | 22:02 |
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| david-lyle_ | full house today, excellent | 22:03 |
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| ohnoimdead | woot | 22:03 |
| david-lyle_ | https://launchpad.net/horizon/+milestone/icehouse-2 | 22:03 |
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| david-lyle_ | just wanted take a quick look at the i-2 milestone | 22:03 |
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| david-lyle_ | things are progressing well and most things seem to be on track | 22:04 |
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| david-lyle_ | lots of review opportunities :) | 22:04 |
| david-lyle_ | And things that have been merging have been slowed a bit by gate difficulties, so let's remain patient and work these items through | 22:04 |
| david-lyle_ | Does any one have any concerns or questions re: i-2 | 22:05 |
| david-lyle_ | ? | 22:05 |
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| david-lyle_ | I'll take that as a no | 22:06 |
| mrunge | I see still a huge bunch of unreviewed patches | 22:06 |
| mrunge | gah, too late ;-) | 22:06 |
| david-lyle_ | no worries | 22:06 |
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| ohnoimdead | got through some reviews last week, will try to do more this week prior to holiday break | 22:06 |
| lsmola_ | me too | 22:06 |
| lsmola_ | we have to tame the review beast | 22:07 |
| mrunge | I'd like to encourage all of you to do more reviews! | 22:07 |
| david-lyle_ | I think we have ~10 bps close to landing, just a few more iterations on reviews | 22:07 |
| david-lyle_ | so let's keep on them | 22:08 |
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| david-lyle_ | Speaking of review load, I officially added tmazur to the horizon core list and retained ohnoimdead, as he expressed a strong interest and started reviewing again. | 22:09 |
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| david-lyle_ | So welcome tmazur and thanks ohnoimdead | 22:09 |
| mrunge | welcome both! | 22:09 |
| jpich | Cool, thanks tmazur and ohnoimdead | 22:09 |
| lsmola_ | welcome :-) | 22:09 |
| mrunge | *greatly appreciated* | 22:09 |
| jcoufal | welcome ;) | 22:09 |
| jpich | It's nice to also have people around with more historical knowledge of the code :) | 22:10 |
| ohnoimdead | hella! | 22:10 |
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| david-lyle_ | absolutely | 22:10 |
| ohnoimdead | i'm old TT | 22:10 |
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| jpich | Wise and experienced ;) | 22:11 |
| lsmola_ | :-) | 22:11 |
| david-lyle_ | ok, on to the planned agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Horizon | 22:11 |
| david-lyle_ | #topic Meeting Time | 22:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Meeting Time (Meeting topic: Horizon)" | 22:11 | |
| david-lyle_ | So the was a thread on the dev mailing list about more diverse timezone friendly meeting times | 22:12 |
| david-lyle_ | I know I have talked with some of you before about this | 22:12 |
| mrunge | yes... | 22:12 |
| jpich | Was that a horizon-meeting-specific thread? | 22:12 |
| david-lyle_ | I think our core team now covers enough timezones that finding one ideal time is going to be impossible | 22:13 |
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| mrunge | if we could move the meeting one or two hours earlier, I suspect tmazur could make it easier | 22:13 |
| david-lyle_ | jpich: no openstack-dev in general | 22:13 |
| jcoufal | would be great if we can move times | 22:13 |
| jpich | david-lyle_: ok, thanks, thought I missed it | 22:13 |
| david-lyle_ | Then amotoki and kspear have no chance | 22:13 |
| jpich | mrunge: but then we lose APAC | 22:13 |
| kspear | it's 9am at the moment | 22:13 |
| jcoufal | here it's 11pm | 22:14 |
| kspear | for me, but daylight saving will make it earlier... | 22:14 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle: true, e.g. Ceilometer uses two times | 22:14 |
| jpich | I think it's at 6 or 7am for amotoki at the moment | 22:14 |
| jcoufal | daylight will make it 00:00 for us :( | 22:14 |
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| mrunge | jpich, imho that discussion was arount summit time... | 22:14 |
| jpich | Ok | 22:14 |
| mrunge | kspear, currently, it's 23:14 for me | 22:14 |
| MaxV | same | 22:14 |
| lsmola_ | same | 22:15 |
| mrunge | and summer time, it will move later | 22:15 |
| david-lyle_ | so, I would be open to having a moving time or other suggestions | 22:15 |
| jpich | Personally, at the moment the meeting time is ok for me but when DST is on again it's really harder | 22:15 |
| david-lyle_ | I'm open to suggestions, because I have it the easiest right now | 22:15 |
| lsmola_ | :-) | 22:15 |
| mrunge | moving 1 hour earlier will make this meeting collide with the general meeting.... | 22:15 |
| jcoufal | 2h earlier will be really hard for kspear | 22:16 |
| jpich | Sounds like a discussion/vote to have on list :) So people who can't attend right now because the timing sucks can chime in | 22:16 |
| david-lyle_ | 1 hour earlier, I can't do | 22:16 |
| lblanchard | do we have any US West coasters? | 22:16 |
| kspear | could we all add our tz to some online tool to get a better idea of things? | 22:16 |
| lsmola_ | what about two times, repeating every two weeks? | 22:16 |
| mrunge | if we're up to move it earlier, then we need to pick another day | 22:16 |
| david-lyle_ | lcheng is typically on the west coast | 22:16 |
| mrunge | kspear, good idea | 22:16 |
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| lblanchard | what if we targeted morning time for EST like 9am…it would be 9pm-ish in APAC areas | 22:17 |
| lblanchard | ah okay | 22:17 |
| * kspear can't remember the name of any though | 22:17 | |
| lblanchard | that would be tough for west coasters :) | 22:17 |
| jcoufal | then west coast is out | 22:17 |
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| markwash | lblanchard: that's what glance does, it jsut means I have to get up at 6AM on standard time and 7AM on daylight savings | 22:17 |
| jpich | lsmola's and the ceilometer folks way to do it is probably the best, or would certainly be interesting to try (alternating meeting times) | 22:17 |
| mrunge | let's collect times, to get a better idea, and then take this to another meeting? | 22:18 |
| lblanchard | markwash: thanks! 6am is pretty darn early for me…but maybe it would work for some? | 22:18 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle: yep https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/MeteringAgenda | 22:18 |
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| lblanchard | mrunge: what is that tool that alvaro has used? | 22:18 |
| lblanchard | jpich: ^ | 22:18 |
| jpich | Agreed with mrunge, let's move it to the list, that won't be resolved here. Most people seem happy to consider a change | 22:19 |
| david-lyle_ | mrunge, good idea, let's leave the meeting time topic on the agenda page and just have people add their tz there | 22:19 |
| jpich | doodle? | 22:19 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle: this way all people can be here at least once in two weeks | 22:19 |
| mrunge | lblanchard, on fedora, we took whenisgood, but doodle does the jobs as well | 22:19 |
| lblanchard | yeah, I was thinking of this: http://www.doodle.com/ | 22:19 |
| david-lyle_ | or that works if someone will take the item to set it up | 22:19 |
| lsmola_ | jpich: alternating seems like a good idea | 22:20 |
| jcoufal | let's start the thread in ML to gather timezones and then we can set up doodle with concrete proposals | 22:20 |
| lblanchard | david-lyle: I can set up a doodle and share it with the ML | 22:20 |
| mrunge | would it be sufficient to check for 2 hour slots? | 22:20 |
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| mrunge | lblanchard, thank you! | 22:21 |
| david-lyle_ | thanks lblanchard | 22:21 |
| lsmola_ | lblanchard: thank you :-) | 22:21 |
| lblanchard | np! | 22:21 |
| david-lyle_ | #topic Tuskar-ui Code Merge Plan | 22:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Tuskar-ui Code Merge Plan (Meeting topic: Horizon)" | 22:21 | |
| lsmola_ | so, I have sent 2 email with 2 plans | 22:22 |
| david-lyle_ | lsmola sent a proposal that the tuskar-ui group created and then we readily stomped on it, discuss | 22:22 |
| david-lyle_ | :) | 22:22 |
| lsmola_ | :-) | 22:22 |
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| lsmola_ | seems we are leaning to codebase merge | 22:23 |
| lsmola_ | though we have some worries | 22:23 |
| lsmola_ | do you want to sum it up jcoufal or should I? | 22:23 |
| david-lyle_ | lsmola, is the main concern re: core and reviews? | 22:23 |
| jcoufal | david-lyle_: yeah | 22:23 |
| jcoufal | in few words | 22:23 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle: yeah, basically we need enough attention :-) | 22:23 |
| david-lyle_ | that's how many I can understand | 22:24 |
| jcoufal | tuskar-ui needs to be developed quickly, we have only 2 motnhs and the goal is to deliver functional installer | 22:24 |
| jcoufal | which is lot of work | 22:24 |
| jcoufal | which we are willing to do | 22:24 |
| david-lyle_ | ok, my thoughts are you are currently gated by horizon for the ui toolkit | 22:24 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle: lets say we have like 5 high priority tasks, that needs to be done by I3, so we have the deployment and manah=gement story upstream wants | 22:24 |
| david-lyle_ | I think that part remains with either proposal for now | 22:25 |
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| lsmola_ | david-lyle: will it be possible to remain high priority also when we are in Horizon? | 22:25 |
| david-lyle_ | I would be open to merging the core teams and letting the existing tuskar-ui core team +2 changes in that area of the code | 22:25 |
| david-lyle_ | to begin with | 22:25 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle: ok that would be great | 22:26 |
| david-lyle_ | I understand the need for agility in what is an incubating project, I don't see a need to block that | 22:26 |
| tzumainn | david-lyle, so the two-company policy of approvals would be suspended for the tuskar-ui code? | 22:26 |
| david-lyle_ | yes | 22:26 |
| jtomasek | david-lyle: how about the "multiple companies rule"? | 22:27 |
| david-lyle_ | I think it has to be | 22:27 |
| jcoufal | david-lyle_: we would like to keep cross-company reviews, so the only concern is if we can get enough attention | 22:27 |
| jtomasek | ok | 22:27 |
| jpich | Personally I would have concerns about just merging the core teams. The first proposal suggested having a separate team to work on the tuskar-ui code, to begin with (if i understood correctly) | 22:27 |
| david-lyle_ | I'm honestly not sure how to accomplish that jpich | 22:27 |
| mrunge | jpich that would imply to have a separate code base | 22:27 |
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| lsmola_ | jpich: yes | 22:28 |
| lsmola_ | it would be only a small step forward | 22:28 |
| david-lyle_ | I would like to get to the point of doing cross-company reviews for tuskar-ui, but I honestly don't feel comfortable enough at this point to place that requirement on me or other un-familiar cores | 22:28 |
| jpich | My understanding of the first proposal was that tuskar-ui would be in its own repository like now, except under the Horizon program - I was told that there could be a core team just for this, to begin with | 22:28 |
| mrunge | david-lyle, yes, I'd love to do that | 22:28 |
| lsmola_ | jpich: yes | 22:28 |
| mrunge | or to see that | 22:29 |
| jpich | lsmola_: Thanks for confirming :-) | 22:29 |
| jcoufal | david-lyle_: it sounds reasonable if everybody agrees, we can move to cross-company reviews in time | 22:29 |
| david-lyle_ | we could also do that, jpich. I think the open question then for tuskarui is why move? | 22:29 |
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| mrunge | david-lyle, I have discussed this with the tuskar guys earlier | 22:30 |
| jpich | Tuskar is based on Horizon | 22:30 |
| tzumainn | david-lyle, one reason might be - right now lifeless feels responsible for our code, but it's difficult for the tripleo cores to evaluate horizon-based code | 22:30 |
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| jpich | And when the project is integrated and has less of a requirement for turbo-velocity, we can work together on merging it into the main horizon codebase | 22:30 |
| mrunge | and I don't see a benefit for horizon nor for tuskar just to move to another separate repository | 22:30 |
| tzumainn | mrunge, regarding that, I should ask - our development is currently somewhat horizontal - starting at the api layer, and working its way up | 22:31 |
| mrunge | jpich, that would mean just to keep it like it is right now | 22:31 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle: well It could be a blocker if cores won't approve our patch because, they can't setup dev env | 22:31 |
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| tzumainn | the code would probably run off mock data for the immediate future | 22:31 |
| tzumainn | is that sort of code acceptable within horizon? | 22:31 |
| lsmola_ | mrunge: well that is the third and easiest plan to do :-D | 22:32 |
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| * david-lyle_ torn | 22:32 | |
| jpich | mrunge: the benefit would be that it gives us time to get used to the code, and the tuskar team to get more used to what the horizon core folks look for in reviews (we've seen pretty strong disagreements on the general horizon direction before...) | 22:32 |
| lsmola_ | :-) | 22:32 |
| mrunge | jpich, honestly? | 22:32 |
| mrunge | who would do that? | 22:33 |
| mrunge | if we aren't forced to do so? | 22:33 |
| lsmola_ | well | 22:33 |
| jpich | mrunge: It would be different because tuskar ui would be the responsibility of tuskar-ui core + horizon core, instead of tuskar-ui core + tripleo core, which seems to be a better match | 22:33 |
| lifeless | FWIW if david-lyle_ and the existing horizon cores are happy with a single code base and merging -core I think thats fantastic | 22:33 |
| mrunge | so jpich, why don't merge? | 22:33 |
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| mrunge | I'd love to see tuskar as tight as possible integrated into horizon codebase | 22:34 |
| david-lyle_ | mrunge, I think the concern would be we'd be managing it a bit like two code bases at the beginning | 22:34 |
| jcoufal | Personally I think it makes more sense to be part of one codebase | 22:34 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle: well the good thing about merge now is, it will be easy, we don't have almost any code after the cleanup | 22:34 |
| david-lyle_ | using artificial means | 22:34 |
| david-lyle_ | I think we're all capable of doing that | 22:35 |
| jtomasek | lsmola_: +1 | 22:35 |
| mrunge | david-lyle, I'd rather treat tuskar as normal code, without any other *special handling* at all | 22:35 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle: true, it's undercloud vs. overcloud right now | 22:35 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle: so for the main functionality, the priorities wont be the same | 22:35 |
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| tzumainn | mrunge, which brings me back to a question - is code that doesn't fully work okay to be accepted into horizon? | 22:36 |
| jpich | I think it makes sense to be part of one codebase once the project is integrated and we have similar requirements across the whole codebase (e.g. no more need for single company approval) | 22:36 |
| kspear | one issue is we're expanding horizon's scope to include incubated projects | 22:36 |
| mrunge | tzumainn, I'd say: yes | 22:36 |
| lsmola_ | mrunge: well you can see the infrastructure tab as a place where you manage a very special application you have deployed by heat | 22:36 |
| mrunge | kspear, we did with trove | 22:36 |
| kspear | which means core has less time to spend on core projects | 22:36 |
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| kspear | mrunge: and that didn't go well at all imo | 22:36 |
| jpich | mrunge: Trove was an exception because the code was all there and ready afaiui | 22:37 |
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| mrunge | kspear, trove didn't built on horizon | 22:37 |
| mrunge | nor is it tightly integrated | 22:37 |
| tzumainn | I kinda agree with jpich - tuskar-ui is in a teardown and re-build state, and I feel like it'll be hard to evaluate for non-tuskar-ui people | 22:37 |
| mrunge | but agreed. it could have worked better | 22:37 |
| jcoufal | tzumainn: jpich: +1 | 22:38 |
| lifeless | I think the key question isn't about the code state; its about what works better for everyone | 22:38 |
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| mrunge | lifeless, +1 | 22:38 |
| lsmola_ | lifeless: though seems like that is hard to find :-) | 22:38 |
| mrunge | ok, when we don't merge more or less now, when do we have the next chance? | 22:38 |
| jcoufal | yeah, the only concern here is if we can get the code in quickly for tuskar-ui | 22:38 |
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| mrunge | and what will we get then? | 22:39 |
| lifeless | which david-lyle_ seemed ok to facilitate:) | 22:39 |
| david-lyle_ | So the tuskarui folks think it's better to remain split, horizon-core seems split | 22:39 |
| mrunge | a finished product? | 22:39 |
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| jcoufal | david-lyle_: I don't think that tuskarui folks think it's better to remain split | 22:39 |
| david-lyle_ | I thought that was the proposal | 22:40 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle: well we would like to merge, though we need attention :-) | 22:40 |
| jpich | mrunge: The first proposal also said horizon core would be core for that project, it's up to us to get/keep up to date with it | 22:40 |
| david-lyle_ | per dev ml | 22:40 |
| jpich | There was a 2nd proposal sent about 12h ago as well | 22:40 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle: it would been healthier to build it under horizon cores eyes :-) | 22:40 |
| * david-lyle_ throws hands up | 22:40 | |
| lsmola_ | hehe | 22:40 |
| * jomara is late to the conversation | 22:41 | |
| tzumainn | lsmola_, but if we aren't enforcing the multi-company reviewer rule, then what's the point? | 22:41 |
| lsmola_ | tzumainn: well we are, that is why we need the attention | 22:41 |
| tzumainn | lsmola_, oh, are you saying you'd prefer a full merge, with the same reviewer rule that horizon uses, but we'd need a guarantee from horizon-cores that we'd get the appropriate attention? | 22:41 |
| jtomasek | lsmola_: tzumainn: I don't see what is the problem with what david-lyle offers | 22:42 |
| david-lyle_ | how did I miss that email | 22:42 |
| lsmola_ | tzumainn: yeah something like that I guess | 22:42 |
| jpich | I don't think anyone can reasonably guarantee that | 22:42 |
| tzumainn | jpich, yeah, I agree - which is why I don't think that plan will work | 22:42 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle: there is a lot of emails | 22:42 |
| jcoufal | david-lyle_: can we say that we merge, and we want to try to keep cross-company reviews? would it be possible? ask horizon-cores to keep eye on the code that it makes sense from horizon point of view (they don't have to check how it works in sense of tripleo from the beginning, but they will get there) | 22:42 |
| tzumainn | jcoufal, so are you okay if it turns out they don't have the bandwidth for those reviews? | 22:43 |
| mrunge | yes, I don't think there is a guarantee. on the other side, I don't see, how it could be so time-critical to get a patch in in e.g 4 hours | 22:43 |
| lsmola_ | mrunge: well more like review | 22:43 |
| mrunge | it would be easier for core reviewers, if we get enough reviews on code at all | 22:44 |
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| jtomasek | mrunge: exactly | 22:44 |
| lsmola_ | mrunge: that means you will have several reviews in one day, and you can address a feedback quickly | 22:44 |
| jpich | IMO this needs more discussion on list to surface a consensus (if there is one to be found :-)), 12h isn't a lot of time... | 22:44 |
| tzumainn | mrunge, it's because we're building from scratch somewhat, so future patches are likely to depend on recent ones | 22:44 |
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| tzumainn | mrunge, also, I think some of our dependent libraries and apis may be in flux | 22:44 |
| lsmola_ | jpich: sorry about that :-) | 22:44 |
| jpich | lsmola_: In an ideal world we want this for all the openstack patches | 22:44 |
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| mrunge | tzumainn, if you have dependent code, you could fetch it from gerrit | 22:45 |
| jtomasek | If the patch has 5 +1's on it I don't see a lot of work for core to approve it | 22:45 |
| jpich | lsmola_: No worries! | 22:45 |
| lsmola_ | jpich: yaaay lets build an ideal world :-) | 22:45 |
| mrunge | jtomasek, exactly | 22:45 |
| jcoufal | how many non-redhat core members horizon has? | 22:45 |
| lsmola_ | jpich: can openstack buy some island? | 22:45 |
| jpich | lsmola_: I'll prepare a proposal for the foundation :) | 22:45 |
| mrunge | jcoufal, 13 or so, if I'm not totally wrong | 22:46 |
| lsmola_ | hehe | 22:46 |
| david-lyle_ | ~6 with varying levels of engagement | 22:46 |
| mrunge | don't we have more core reviewers? | 22:46 |
| jcoufal | so about 6-7 active cores? | 22:46 |
| david-lyle_ | mrunge, cleaned up a little per ml outcome | 22:46 |
| mrunge | ah, yes | 22:46 |
| mrunge | you're right david-lyle_ | 22:46 |
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| david-lyle_ | mrunge, not enough reviewers in general, that's picked up lately | 22:46 |
| david-lyle_ | but I think a track record needs to be established before moving people to core | 22:47 |
| mrunge | well we have here 5(?) new contributors.... | 22:47 |
| lsmola_ | 6 | 22:47 |
| mrunge | and they should be able to do reviews as well, to help reducing the backlog | 22:48 |
| jcoufal | my proposal would be to try to keep cross-company reviews, we (tuskar-ui) can help as much as possible to ease reviews and then ask outside company cross members to have a look on almost ready code to get in... | 22:48 |
| jcoufal | I think it can work | 22:48 |
| tzumainn | what is review latency like? | 22:48 |
| david-lyle_ | jcoufal: I agree | 22:48 |
| mrunge | currently, we're getting about 5-6 new patches per day | 22:48 |
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| jtomasek | jcoufal: +1 | 22:49 |
| jpich | I think david's numbers were 18/day last week? | 22:49 |
| tzumainn | the part I have trouble with is that a) tuskar-ui will require additional setup for reviewers, and b) tuskar doesn't have the documentation to ease reviewers' understanding of what's going on | 22:49 |
| jcoufal | can we have fallback plan? if we find out that we can't move as quickly forward as we need to ask for exception for temporary 'one company' reviews? | 22:49 |
| david-lyle_ | jpich: that may have been patchsets | 22:49 |
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| david-lyle_ | but those all require reviews | 22:50 |
| jpich | david-lyle: Most of them need reviews though :) | 22:50 |
| jpich | yeah | 22:50 |
| mrunge | jpich, http://russellbryant.net/openstack-stats/horizon-reviewers-30.txt look at the bottom | 22:50 |
| david-lyle_ | it's 19.9 now, btw | 22:50 |
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| jcoufal | tzumainn: I don't think that horizon-core needs to ensure it works correctly from tripleo point of view - they can keep eye on if the code fits horizon way | 22:51 |
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| jcoufal | at least from the beginning until they get more familiar with the code | 22:51 |
| tzumainn | hm, is that true? | 22:51 |
| david-lyle_ | I think there is enough concern expressed here to put this on the mailing list for a little more fine tuning. | 22:51 |
| * jcoufal thinks - so that's not assured :) | 22:51 | |
| david-lyle_ | I don't want to drag this out, but I don't think there's a concensus here | 22:52 |
| jpich | mrunge: Thank you for the link | 22:52 |
| jpich | Agreed | 22:52 |
| jcoufal | david-lyle_: agree on ML | 22:52 |
| mrunge | yupp, agreed | 22:52 |
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| lsmola_ | david-lyle: seems like it, though it looks like another very long thread :-D | 22:52 |
| jcoufal | we can follow the new thread lsmola sent 12h ago | 22:52 |
| tzumainn | sounds like a plan to me : ) | 22:52 |
| lsmola_ | ok then | 22:53 |
| jpich | Is that email the new plan, or does a new-new plan needs to come out of this discussion first? | 22:53 |
| jcoufal | I'll write down some sort of summary or at least my point of view to kick this off | 22:53 |
| jomara | jcoufal: yes, reply to lsmola with it | 22:53 |
| david-lyle_ | jcoufal: thanks | 22:53 |
| jcoufal | I just want to ask for one thing | 22:53 |
| jcoufal | can we get attention to the ML to speed up the process of getting to consensus? | 22:53 |
| lsmola_ | i think we can build a new plan based on the feedback :-) | 22:53 |
| david-lyle_ | let's continue to work out the details. I think this is the right fit, we just need the mechanics | 22:53 |
| lsmola_ | david-lyle: so, talk about it again the next meeting? | 22:54 |
| jcoufal | next meeting is christmas | 22:54 |
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| jpich | Next meeting is... next year? | 22:54 |
| mrunge | next meeting will be on the 24th? | 22:54 |
| jcoufal | I would like to get to consensus until the end of the week. if all possible | 22:54 |
| lsmola_ | yes I believe so | 22:54 |
| jpich | Yes. We can work out a consensus on list | 22:54 |
| david-lyle_ | yes, the next two weeks should be off from this meeting | 22:54 |
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| jpich | The meetings shouldn't be a requirement to making decision | 22:55 |
| david-lyle_ | we can resolve this on the ml | 22:55 |
| jpich | *decisions | 22:55 |
| david-lyle_ | #topic Open | 22:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open (Meeting topic: Horizon)" | 22:55 | |
| mrunge | so, next meeting will be on Jan 7th, david-lyle_ ? | 22:55 |
| lsmola_ | ok, so let's make consensus on a list | 22:55 |
| lsmola_ | jcoufal: not sure if we are able to do it til lthe end of the week, but it would be great | 22:55 |
| jomara | +1 to jan7 | 22:55 |
| david-lyle_ | after short discussion of the agenda... | 22:55 |
| jcoufal | jpich, david-lyle_: thanks, tomorrow morning expect the starting e-mail | 22:55 |
| lblanchard | I just wanted to remind everyone that there is a Persona Working Group kickoff meeting tomorrow | 22:55 |
| jpich | jcoufal: Ok! Thanks | 22:56 |
| david-lyle_ | mrunge, yes that's inline with the project meeting | 22:56 |
| david-lyle_ | ml is always open for pressing issues in the interim | 22:56 |
| jpich | lblanchard: Thanks! Are there international numbers available? | 22:57 |
| lblanchard | jpich: great question! | 22:57 |
| lblanchard | julim is running the meeting | 22:57 |
| david-lyle_ | lblanchard: thanks for the reminder | 22:57 |
| lblanchard | I will follow up with her and cc you, jpich | 22:57 |
| david-lyle_ | what was the flow there IRC then phone? | 22:57 |
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| lblanchard | david-lyle: no problem. Yes, IRC and there is a conference call # in the invite | 22:57 |
| jpich | lblanchard: Ok, no problems. I think it would be useful to have it in the wiki and/or wherever else the meeting is announced :) | 22:58 |
| lblanchard | yes, good point. I will suggest this to Ju…I think maybe she will set up an etherpad early in the day and send that out to all | 22:58 |
| lblanchard | jpich: ^ | 22:58 |
| david-lyle_ | I see, that's an HP conference line, I'll see if I can dig up the international number for that | 22:58 |
| jcoufal | lblanchard: +1 that would be great | 22:58 |
| lblanchard | david-lyle: sounds great | 22:59 |
| jpich | lblanchard: Makes sense, cool | 22:59 |
| lblanchard | cool, catch those of you there who are interested :) | 22:59 |
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| david-lyle_ | Ok, thanks everyone. Have a good couple of weeks and provider you tuskar-ui feedback on the ml. | 23:00 |
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| david-lyle_ | oh, and review :) | 23:00 |
| david-lyle_ | #endmeeting | 23:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 23:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Dec 17 23:00:48 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 23:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-12-17-22.02.html | 23:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-12-17-22.02.txt | 23:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-12-17-22.02.log.html | 23:00 |
| jcoufal | thanks everyone, it was great discussion | 23:00 |
| kspear | bye all | 23:00 |
| jpich | Thanks! Happy end of year holidays | 23:01 |
| tzumainn | thanks all! | 23:01 |
| jcoufal | and reviews! :) | 23:01 |
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| lsmola_ | thanks everybody, have a beautiful holiday :-) | 23:01 |
| mrunge | thanks and good night! | 23:01 |
| jcoufal | have a great day/night | 23:01 |
| jomara | night guys | 23:01 |
| lblanchard | thanks everyone! Good night! | 23:01 |
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| jtomasek | thanks all | 23:02 |
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