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| dhellmann | #startmeeting oslo | 14:01 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Fri Nov 15 14:01:30 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is dhellmann. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: oslo)" | 14:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'oslo' | 14:01 |
| markmc | hey | 14:01 |
| dhellmann | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Oslo | 14:01 |
| dhellmann | Show of hands, please? | 14:01 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 14:01 |
| bpokorny | o/ | 14:01 |
| e-vad | \o | 14:01 |
| dims | o/ | 14:02 |
| bnemec_ | \o | 14:02 |
| dhellmann | luisg, here? | 14:02 |
| dhellmann | ok, we'll start without him... | 14:02 |
| dhellmann | #topic Pecan/WSME status | 14:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Pecan/WSME status (Meeting topic: oslo)" | 14:02 | |
| dhellmann | bnemec, the floor is yours | 14:03 |
| flaper87 | o/ | 14:03 |
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| bnemec_ | Okay | 14:03 |
| bnemec_ | This came up with some of the work around Tuskar/Ironic. | 14:03 |
| bnemec_ | They apparently just copy-pasted the basic code for Pecan/WSME and were wondering if there's anything going on in Oslo to make some of that common code available. | 14:03 |
| ryanpetrello | so pecan comes with a "project scaffold", but it's really meant for web applications | 14:04 |
| dhellmann | we had planned to create some common base code, but had not yet | 14:04 |
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| ryanpetrello | Doug and I discussed the possibility of one that was basically a pecan+wsme REST API scaffold | 14:04 |
| markmc | yeah, ironic API stuff was based on ceilometer and tuskar was based on ironic | 14:04 |
| markmc | definitely some stuff copied around | 14:05 |
| jd__ | o/ | 14:05 |
| bnemec_ | I didn't see a blueprint for any of this. | 14:05 |
| sileht | o/ | 14:05 |
| bnemec_ | Should we get one opened to track it? | 14:05 |
| flaper87 | +1 | 14:05 |
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| dhellmann | we should start figuring out how much of that we can share through oslo | 14:05 |
| dhellmann | yes, a blueprint would make sense | 14:05 |
| dhellmann | bnemec_, want to open that? | 14:06 |
| jd__ | what the common mode would look like? I wonder if it makes sense to release an oslo lib for that, or just putting that in Pecan makes sense | 14:06 |
| bnemec_ | I can, but I don't know much about it so it's going to be pretty basic if I write it. | 14:06 |
| dhellmann | jd__, yeah I'm not sure -- let's get it into the incubator, and then decide where it makes sense to put it | 14:06 |
| bnemec_ | I suppose someone else can add to it later. | 14:06 |
| dhellmann | bnemec_, ok, I'll open one | 14:06 |
| jd__ | works for me :) | 14:06 |
| bnemec_ | dhellmann: Okay, thanks. | 14:06 |
| dims | +1 | 14:07 |
| dhellmann | #action dhellmann open blueprint to track adding common pecan/wsme API code to the incubator | 14:07 |
| bnemec_ | I guess that's all I was looking for on that topic. | 14:07 |
| ryanpetrello | looks like pecan exposes a setuptools entrypoint for defining new scaffolds: https://github.com/stackforge/pecan/blob/master/setup.py#L118 | 14:07 |
| dhellmann | ok, thanks | 14:07 |
| ryanpetrello | (in other packages) | 14:07 |
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| dhellmann | yeah, there's scaffold code and then there's truly sharable code that we can place in a library | 14:08 |
| ryanpetrello | right | 14:08 |
| dhellmann | we need to work out how much of the latter we really have | 14:08 |
| dhellmann | next up... | 14:09 |
| dhellmann | #topic python3 requirements file | 14:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "python3 requirements file (Meeting topic: oslo)" | 14:09 | |
| dhellmann | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/55606/ | 14:09 |
| dhellmann | dims? | 14:09 |
| * jd__ hides | 14:09 | |
| dims | lol | 14:09 |
| flaper87 | lol | 14:09 |
| dims | so, do we want to maintain py3 requirements in another file? :) | 14:10 |
| bnemec_ | -1, needs a better commit message :-) | 14:10 |
| dhellmann | jd__ and I discussed this at the summit | 14:10 |
| jd__ | I'm ok to go to the front and ask -infra FWIW | 14:10 |
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| dhellmann | we need to track the requirements for each version of python separately (e.g., mox vs. mox3) | 14:10 |
| dims | +1 to that jd__ since they need to think about global-requirements and devstack etc | 14:10 |
| flaper87 | yeah, we need to get -infra thoughts and considerations here | 14:11 |
| jd__ | basically the requirements are the same, except that python 3 can't have everything installed | 14:11 |
| markmc | would be good if we had requirements.txt, requirements-py2.txt and requirements-py3.txt | 14:11 |
| markmc | and for most things to live in requirements.txt | 14:11 |
| jd__ | but we could have mox3 and mox installed in parallel for all Python to minimize divergence | 14:11 |
| markmc | only exceptions in py2.txt and py3.txt | 14:11 |
| flaper87 | markmc: +1 | 14:11 |
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| jd__ | markmc: we just need requirements.txt and requirements-py2.txt then | 14:12 |
| dhellmann | markmc: that would be more complicated to track upstream in the requirements project, I think | 14:12 |
| flaper87 | that's the common way to do it, AFAIK | 14:12 |
| dhellmann | that was one option we talked about | 14:12 |
| dhellmann | oh, there's precedent? | 14:12 |
| markmc | dhellmann, yeah - maybe what I describe only belongs in the requirements repo | 14:12 |
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| markmc | dhellmann, and we autogenerate distinct python2 and python3 requirements files from the sources in the requirements repo | 14:12 |
| dhellmann | markmc: I like that | 14:13 |
| bnemec_ | +1 | 14:13 |
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| dims | nice | 14:13 |
| dhellmann | if we leave the python 2 requirements file in each project "requirements.txt" then we don't have to change devstack | 14:14 |
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| dhellmann | doesn't it merge the requirements together now? | 14:14 |
| dhellmann | oh, no, nevermind, the way they implemented that was to update the requirements in each repo before installing anything | 14:14 |
| dhellmann | still, it feels like keeping python 2 in requirements.txt will result in fewer changes overall | 14:15 |
| flaper87 | mmh, but I think requirements.txt should have Py2 and Py3 requirements | 14:15 |
| flaper87 | otherwise we won't be able to know which packages are not py3k compatible | 14:16 |
| flaper87 | (unless I'm missing something) | 14:16 |
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| dhellmann | how does combining them tell us which are not py3 compatible? | 14:16 |
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| flaper87 | it doesn't but at least we know they work for both. | 14:17 |
| flaper87 | ahh, you are suggesting to have requirements.txt for py2 and requirements-py3.txt for py3k | 14:17 |
| dims | i like 3 files - common/py2-only/py3-only approach then we know the py2 wont work in py3 and vice versa and common will work on both | 14:18 |
| dhellmann | flaper87: yes | 14:18 |
| flaper87 | damn, it's friday! :D | 14:18 |
| *** bnemec_ is now known as beekneemech | 14:18 | |
| beekneemech | Yes | 14:18 |
| flaper87 | yeah, that would make it easier | 14:18 |
| beekneemech | Yes it is :-) | 14:18 |
| dims | dhellmann, in that approach won't you have some stuff in py2 file that wont work in py3? | 14:18 |
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| flaper87 | the only downside is that we would have some packages duplicated in both requirements, IIUC | 14:19 |
| dhellmann | dims: the idea would be to ignore requirements.txt when installing under python 3 | 14:19 |
| dhellmann | thinking about where we need to make changes, this is going to be complicated | 14:19 |
| beekneemech | So I gather from this conversation that "remove all deps that don't work in py3" is not an option? | 14:19 |
| dims | dhellmann, got it. | 14:19 |
| dhellmann | pbr will have to look at different file(s) | 14:19 |
| dhellmann | the requirements updater tool will have to modify more files | 14:19 |
| dhellmann | the mirror building tool will have to look at all of these files | 14:20 |
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| dhellmann | I wonder if we can keep a single global requirements list in the requirements project, and only have separate files in the repos where we run tox | 14:20 |
| dhellmann | that would work as long as we don't require different versions of the same library under python 2 and 3 | 14:21 |
| dhellmann | which I don't think we do now | 14:21 |
| dhellmann | jd__: I think we need a blueprint, and input from infra on this, but I think we can make it work | 14:22 |
| flaper87 | dhellmann: +1 for bp and input from -infra | 14:22 |
| jd__ | yeah, I'm just waiting for instructions on how to build it basically | 14:22 |
| jd__ | either 2 files or 3 files | 14:22 |
| dims | and devstack folks | 14:22 |
| flaper87 | I think this affects other projects as well so, definitely -infra input is worth it. | 14:22 |
| dhellmann | #action jd__ open a blueprint for tracking python 3 requirements and solicit input from -infra | 14:22 |
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| dhellmann | dims: I think we can assume devstack runs python 2 for the time being | 14:23 |
| jd__ | dhellmann: bp on oslo ? | 14:23 |
| dhellmann | jd__: probably on the requirements project, but oslo if there isn't a launchpad project for that | 14:23 |
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| jd__ | dhellmann: I don't know nor think there's a LP for that indeed :) | 14:23 |
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| jd__ | I can use https://launchpad.net/openstack-ci | 14:24 |
| dhellmann | that works | 14:24 |
| dims | jd__, worst case mailing list | 14:24 |
| jd__ | dims: yeah, worst case, I'd like to avoid bikeshedding :D | 14:24 |
| dhellmann | once we figure out how to manage the requirements, we should update the python 3 page in the wiki with directions, too | 14:24 |
| flaper87 | mailing-list +1 | 14:24 |
| dims | jd__, agree :) | 14:24 |
| jd__ | dhellmann: fair enough | 14:25 |
| dhellmann | luisg: ping? | 14:25 |
| luisg | dhellmann, here | 14:25 |
| dhellmann | hi! | 14:25 |
| dhellmann | anything else on python 3 requirements before we move on? | 14:25 |
| dhellmann | #topic Message code changes & implications to the current code base | 14:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Message code changes & implications to the current code base (Meeting topic: oslo)" | 14:25 | |
| dhellmann | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/i18nmessages | 14:25 |
| dhellmann | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/56093/ | 14:26 |
| dhellmann | luisg, you have the floor | 14:26 |
| luisg | thx, sorry i was late | 14:26 |
| luisg | so i implemented the changes that we had agreed on our last meeting on this topic | 14:26 |
| luisg | and i have been running into several issues, that i documented in that ehterpad | 14:26 |
| luisg | basically one of the one that worries me more is the first one in the etherpad, about logging exceptions | 14:27 |
| dhellmann | for the first issue, with passing exceptions to the logging code, I like option 3 | 14:27 |
| dhellmann | however, I think this is why we at one point said we would support .__unicode__() on Message | 14:27 |
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| dhellmann | to cut down on code churn in the other projects, where exceptions are turned into strings explicitly like this | 14:28 |
| luisg | dhellmann, y im finding that not supporting unicode() can be problematic | 14:28 |
| dhellmann | what do you think about supporting it for now, and phasing it out later? | 14:29 |
| luisg | even for non-exceptions, like in the example of logging a connection object | 14:29 |
| dhellmann | smaller steps... | 14:29 |
| luisg | if we phase it out eventually, would u want to phase it out in favor of a "translate()" interface? | 14:29 |
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| luisg | or how would we w2nt to address that and the other issues | 14:30 |
| dhellmann | it seems like we'll always be merging an exception with a message object, right? | 14:30 |
| dhellmann | _('some text: %s') % the_exception | 14:30 |
| dhellmann | if that's the case, we can have Message look for exceptions when doing the final interpolation, and treat them differently | 14:31 |
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| dhellmann | the *right* way to do it is to pass them separately: log.error(_('bad thing happened: %s'), the_exception) | 14:31 |
| dhellmann | or just log.exception(the_exception) | 14:32 |
| dhellmann | but that really just delays the point at which the % operator is used | 14:32 |
| dhellmann | so we still have to look for them explicitly | 14:32 |
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| dhellmann | make sense? | 14:32 |
| luisg | yeah..whether they 7use % or , it is ultimately the same | 14:32 |
| dhellmann | right | 14:32 |
| luisg | the problem is that not all exceptions have their message in the same field | 14:32 |
| luisg | some use explanation, some use message, details.. | 14:33 |
| dhellmann | we should definitely not look inside the exception object | 14:33 |
| luisg | so it is up to each exception to choose its representation in their __unicode__ | 14:33 |
| luisg | not knowing what they use woudl kind of force us to look inside | 14:33 |
| dhellmann | we should either have an exception base class that supports translate() or just require it to support __unicode__ | 14:33 |
| luisg | unless we somehow unify where to look | 14:33 |
| * beekneemech notes that we just removed our exception base class :-) | 14:34 | |
| dhellmann | yeah | 14:34 |
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| luisg | ok that addresses exceptions only, but we are limiting devs to log anyother object | 14:34 |
| luisg | i.e. the connection example | 14:34 |
| dhellmann | I wonder, if we do nothing, would unicode(the_exception) return a Message instance? | 14:34 |
| luisg | they would only be allowed to log "translatables" | 14:34 |
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| dhellmann | because if that's the case, we could have our log formatter turn the exception into a message, and then call translate on it | 14:36 |
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| luisg | what i am seeing is that in the basic case where for instance in that cinder example | 14:36 |
| luisg | where we log message, unicode(e) | 14:36 |
| luisg | the exception was raised, but i need to see if that i b/c unicode was invoked inside Fault on the msg | 14:37 |
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| dhellmann | right | 14:37 |
| luisg | that is issue 1, what do u guys think about the other issues? | 14:37 |
| dhellmann | ok, let's err on the side of avoiding exceptions and support __unicode__ using the default translation | 14:38 |
| dhellmann | issues with messages not being logged with the proper language are then bugs in the app or library code that is handling the exception improperly, right? | 14:38 |
| dhellmann | although I guess we need to provide a path for getting a Message out of an exception, still | 14:39 |
| luisg | yeah so that we can do the secondary log | 14:39 |
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| dhellmann | ok, I'm going to have to spend more time thinking about that, I think | 14:39 |
| luisg | if we loose the M object say by supporting _uni_ we need to be able to recreate the msg | 14:39 |
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| luisg | k | 14:40 |
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| dhellmann | I think we'll have to handle it explicitly, so if someone calls unicode() on an exception, translation of the result will no longer be supported | 14:40 |
| dhellmann | but there might be a get_message() method or something | 14:40 |
| dhellmann | or get_translatable() | 14:40 |
| dhellmann | but in any case, let's start by avoiding unicode exceptions | 14:40 |
| luisg | k | 14:41 |
| dhellmann | how about the keystone context formatter issue? | 14:41 |
| dhellmann | do they not use it because they don't like it, or because no one has added it? | 14:41 |
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| luisg | yeah that is a nother tricky one, and it comes back to the fact that we now depend on that formatter or there will be no translation() and thig would crash | 14:42 |
| luisg | due to the explicit translation reuqired | 14:42 |
| luisg | i think we if allow unicode, this would not be a problem | 14:42 |
| luisg | but need to double check paths | 14:42 |
| luisg | i don't know why it's not used tbh | 14:42 |
| dhellmann | except that they would not have translated logs | 14:42 |
| luisg | but out of the box it's not used | 14:42 |
| dhellmann | do you feel up to proposing a patch to keystone to have it used? | 14:43 |
| luisg | dhellmann, yeah i could do that | 14:43 |
| dhellmann | cool -- add me as a reviewer | 14:43 |
| dhellmann | ok, the + operator | 14:43 |
| dhellmann | I thought we said we did need to go ahead and support that? | 14:43 |
| luisg | i was thinking that is the smaller issue, we just go in and change all to % | 14:43 |
| luisg | we said no add | 14:44 |
| luisg | only % and format | 14:44 |
| luisg | we can add add or change that to % | 14:44 |
| dhellmann | ok, it seems to me that the use of + in the specific example you've provided is a mistake anyway | 14:44 |
| luisg | line 22 says where we said no add | 14:44 |
| dhellmann | I believe you :-) | 14:44 |
| luisg | haha.. | 14:44 |
| luisg | the reason i pointed out the line was b/c of the rationale | 14:44 |
| dhellmann | would it help to support __add__ but have it log a deprecated message? | 14:45 |
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| luisg | it says that it would imply trnslation in improper ways | 14:45 |
| luisg | bnut can't rememebr what that was about | 14:45 |
| beekneemech | Do we have any idea how many places that's happening? | 14:45 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I'm thinking pragmatically again: can we get something working, then remove some of the parts we don't want long term? | 14:45 |
| luisg | i have only seen it in noa | 14:45 |
| luisg | *nova | 14:45 |
| beekneemech | Because it's definitely wrong to add translated strings. | 14:45 |
| dhellmann | are there a lot of cases like that in nova? | 14:45 |
| beekneemech | So that should be fixed anyway. | 14:46 |
| luisg | the whole exception module | 14:46 |
| luisg | k | 14:46 |
| dhellmann | anything outside of that module? | 14:46 |
| dhellmann | maybe beekneemech is right, and we should just fix nova first | 14:46 |
| luisg | i did not see, but there may still be stuff in there | 14:46 |
| dhellmann | ok | 14:46 |
| dhellmann | well, I'm willing to be flexible on __add__ and __radd__ if it gets us to the point where things mostly work, and we can phase out their use later | 14:47 |
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| dhellmann | rather than trying to make it all work right at one time, if you know what I mean | 14:47 |
| beekneemech | Yeah, that makes sense to me. | 14:47 |
| luisg | yeah that make sense | 14:47 |
| beekneemech | Logging the message would be nice so we can find out how much this is happening. | 14:47 |
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| dhellmann | yeah | 14:48 |
| beekneemech | (a deprecation message, not a Message message :-) | 14:48 |
| dhellmann | right :-) | 14:48 |
| dhellmann | ok, luisg, did we cover all of the issues you had? | 14:48 |
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| luisg | we didn't talk about the issue of sending Ex through RPC | 14:48 |
| luisg | that would be fixed with unicode worknig i guess | 14:49 |
| dhellmann | supporting __unicode__ should fix that for now -- right | 14:49 |
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| luisg | so still im worried about several things, 1) we can't log "non-translatables" 2) we depend on the contxt formatter and 3) strings don't support all operations, and 4) how to recover the M after unicoding for secondary log | 14:49 |
| dhellmann | and when we know what explicit interface we will provide, we can address it differently later | 14:49 |
| dhellmann | non-translatables? | 14:49 |
| luisg | i was wondering if u would allow me to send out a WIP with what I propose at the bottom | 14:49 |
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| dhellmann | what is a non-translatable? | 14:50 |
| luisg | sorry 1) is no t an issue only 4) | 14:50 |
| dhellmann | 2) relying on that class to handle translation is just going to have to be ok | 14:50 |
| dhellmann | 3) what operations/ | 14:51 |
| dhellmann | ? | 14:51 |
| dhellmann | 4) why would we need to do that? what is a "secondary log"? | 14:51 |
| luisg | like these places where ppl use + | 14:51 |
| dhellmann | ok, we can generalize that approach: if you find other operators that are needed, support them with deprecation warnings | 14:51 |
| luisg | i thought we were conswidering the requirement where we would log in different languages | 14:51 |
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| dhellmann | I thought we wanted to let the operator choose to log in one language, that might not be english | 14:52 |
| luisg | the default, but if there was another handler that wants to log in a diff lang thatn the default | 14:52 |
| dhellmann | in that case, the log record would be given to 2 formatters for 2 loggers and the translation would just happen twice, right? | 14:52 |
| luisg | there is another req to basically create different logs, e.g. one in INFO in the default locale, and a debug one in a diff one | 14:52 |
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| dhellmann | although the formatter would have to get the language value from somewhere other than the locale | 14:53 |
| luisg | yeah from the logg config most likely | 14:53 |
| dims | luisg, do we really need that "feature"? | 14:53 |
| dhellmann | let's get this working properly for one language at a time before we try to make it work in parallel | 14:53 |
| dims | right | 14:53 |
| dhellmann | one step at a time | 14:53 |
| luisg | dims, it's a controversial one, but there was a blueprint pushed out from havana | 14:53 |
| dhellmann | I won't say no to supporting it, but like I said, let's get one language working first :-) | 14:54 |
| beekneemech | +1 | 14:54 |
| dhellmann | ok, we're almost out of time and I need to talk schedule | 14:54 |
| dims | luisg, agree with dhellmann | 14:54 |
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| dhellmann | #topic scheduling | 14:55 |
| luisg | ok | 14:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "scheduling (Meeting topic: oslo)" | 14:55 | |
| dhellmann | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Icehouse_Release_Schedule | 14:55 |
| dhellmann | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Summit/Icehouse/Etherpads#Oslo | 14:55 |
| dhellmann | I need to know estimates for targets for the blueprints that are going into icehouse | 14:55 |
| dhellmann | so if you have a blueprint, either go ahead and set the target or email me the info (I'm not sure what permissions are required to change that field) | 14:55 |
| dhellmann | I'll be reviewing the summit etherpads today and at least setting the release on all of the blueprints | 14:56 |
| dhellmann | but we need to be more specific about which milestone, too | 14:56 |
| dhellmann | does anyone have any concerns about the blueprints based on what we discussed at the summit? are there any that we need to include that did not have a session? | 14:57 |
| flaper87 | I think we need to split oslo.config side effects into several blueprints | 14:57 |
| dhellmann | flaper87: good point, I have that on my list | 14:57 |
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| dhellmann | I was also going to open blueprints for graduating each part of the incubator, but not assign them to icehouse until we think we're actually going to be able to do them | 14:58 |
| dhellmann | that will give us a place to track what would be required for graduation for each piece, though | 14:58 |
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| flaper87 | sounds good, that'll also let us discuss the graduation aspects in the blueprint itself | 14:59 |
| flaper87 | for each module | 14:59 |
| dhellmann | right | 14:59 |
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| flaper87 | ah damn, I didn't read your last message | 14:59 |
| flaper87 | lol | 14:59 |
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| dhellmann | I'll take a stab at grouping some of the smaller modules into libraries, too, although that's up for discussion | 15:00 |
| flaper87 | Can we start discussing the grouping on an etherpad ? | 15:00 |
| flaper87 | if there isn't one already | 15:00 |
| dhellmann | flaper87: sure, we could do it that way | 15:00 |
| dhellmann | I'll start one and send an email | 15:00 |
| dhellmann | to the ml | 15:00 |
| flaper87 | then we can translate that into a blueprint! | 15:00 |
| flaper87 | awesome | 15:00 |
| dhellmann | we're at the end of our time slot for the meeting | 15:01 |
| dhellmann | thanks everyone! | 15:01 |
| flaper87 | good meeting! | 15:01 |
| flaper87 | thanks guys! | 15:01 |
| dims | markmc, sad to see the oslo.messaging abandoned :( | 15:01 |
| luisg | thank you! | 15:01 |
| dhellmann | #action dhellmann create etherpad to start grouping oslo modules into libraries | 15:01 |
| dims | patch to nova i mean | 15:01 |
| markmc | temporarily | 15:01 |
| dims | whew ok | 15:01 |
| dhellmann | good | 15:01 |
| dhellmann | #endmeeting | 15:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:02 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Fri Nov 15 15:02:06 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:02 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/oslo/2013/oslo.2013-11-15-14.01.html | 15:02 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/oslo/2013/oslo.2013-11-15-14.01.txt | 15:02 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/oslo/2013/oslo.2013-11-15-14.01.log.html | 15:02 |
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