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| ttx | jpich, david-lyle: I'll create the milestones today, as I officialize the icehouse schedule | 08:07 |
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| bauzas | #startmeeting climate | 09:59 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Nov 13 09:59:46 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is bauzas. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 09:59 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 09:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: climate)" | 09:59 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'climate' | 09:59 |
| bauzas | morning all | 09:59 |
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| bauzas | could you please raise hands when present ? o/ | 10:00 |
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| bauzas | s/o there ? | 10:01 |
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| scroiset | o/ | 10:02 |
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| f_rossigneux | Hi! | 10:02 |
| bauzas | ok, seems like Dina and Nikolay are absent | 10:03 |
| bauzas | let's wait 10 mins | 10:03 |
| bauzas | and if not present, we will close the room | 10:03 |
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| bauzas | Nikolay_St: you there ? | 10:07 |
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| Nikolay_St | bauzas: yeap | 10:09 |
| bauzas | Nikolay_St: cool | 10:09 |
| bauzas | Nikolay_St: do you know if Dina's present ? | 10:09 |
| Nikolay_St | she's taking PTO today | 10:09 |
| bauzas | what do you mean by PTO ? | 10:10 |
| bauzas | ah ok | 10:10 |
| bauzas | gotcha | 10:10 |
| Nikolay_St | she's take a day off | 10:10 |
| bauzas | ok, then quickly review the agenda | 10:10 |
| bauzas | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Climate#Agenda_for_November.2C_13 | 10:11 |
| bauzas | #topic Summit review | 10:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Summit review (Meeting topic: climate)" | 10:11 | |
| bauzas | as Dina is not there, we won't discuss about actions to do | 10:11 |
| Nikolay_St | bauzas: mm... okay | 10:12 |
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| bauzas | on an overall note, I would say there are various Oslo libs we need to integrate in Climate | 10:13 |
| bauzas | I noted Pecan/WSME (which is not yet part of Oslo) | 10:14 |
| bauzas | Oslo.messaging.rpc | 10:14 |
| bauzas | that's all I noted | 10:14 |
| Nikolay_St | can you give me first explonation about it? | 10:14 |
| bauzas | yup | 10:14 |
| bauzas | we're currently running Flask as WSGI fremework | 10:15 |
| bauzas | there is a global move to Pecan for most of the Openstack projects, excl. Marconi | 10:15 |
| bauzas | that should be investigated on our side | 10:15 |
| bauzas | re: oslo.messaging.rpc, it's only about making sure we're using the latest Oslo version for RPC proxying | 10:16 |
| Nikolay_St | I think that's a good point | 10:17 |
| bauzas | which is not yet the case | 10:17 |
| Nikolay_St | both of it | 10:17 |
| bauzas | #idea Investigate use of Pecan/WSME for API | 10:18 |
| bauzas | #idea Investigate move to oslo.messaging.rpc for RPC proxying | 10:18 |
| Nikolay_St | or | 10:18 |
| bauzas | there was also a discussion about two other concerns : | 10:19 |
| bauzas | 1/ for virtual leases, instead of modifying Nova code, use Nova V3 extension called "shielved instances" | 10:20 |
| bauzas | we have to dig in and look what's doing what | 10:20 |
| bauzas | but on a first glance, it seems it does exactly the same thing as you wish : wipe an instance but keep it in database and do a snapshot before stopping it | 10:21 |
| Nikolay_St | I think I can do it after I finish with tests to API (it's very close to end I think) and manager | 10:21 |
| Nikolay_St | Dina said me about 'shielved instances' | 10:21 |
| bauzas | #link https://github.com/openstack/nova/blob/master/nova/api/openstack/compute/plugins/v3/shelve.py | 10:23 |
| bauzas | Nikolay_St: cool | 10:23 |
| Nikolay_St | bauzas: also, I think we need to think about roadmap | 10:24 |
| Nikolay_St | bauzas: what do you think about it? | 10:24 |
| bauzas | I think that's a good idea | 10:25 |
| bauzas | #action POC using shelved instances | 10:26 |
| bauzas | about roadmap, I think that should be discussed by email | 10:26 |
| bauzas | on openstack-dev@ | 10:26 |
| Nikolay_St | mmm | 10:26 |
| bauzas | so, people interested in Climate could contribute | 10:26 |
| Nikolay_St | may be it's better to discuss draft of roadmap inside Climate team | 10:27 |
| bauzas | at first, we need to put all our needs in blueprints | 10:27 |
| bauzas | well, as said, we first need to collect all our ideas as blueprints | 10:28 |
| bauzas | once done, we'll triage those | 10:28 |
| bauzas | it should raise a roadmpa | 10:29 |
| bauzas | roadmap | 10:29 |
| bauzas | #action to_all : make sure all the blueprints match the needs, if one is missing, create it | 10:29 |
| bauzas | one last point about physical host reservations, we reviewed the pcloud framework | 10:30 |
| bauzas | choice is made to switch to AZ instead of Pclouds | 10:30 |
| bauzas | #action Change implementation of ReservationPools from Pclouds to AZ | 10:31 |
| bauzas | I think we're done with this topic | 10:31 |
| bauzas | any other comments about Summit ? | 10:31 |
| Nikolay_St | nope | 10:31 |
| Nikolay_St | I don't think we loose anything | 10:32 |
| bauzas | #topic Reviews follow-up | 10:32 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Reviews follow-up (Meeting topic: climate)" | 10:32 | |
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| bauzas | so we had previous actions http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/climate/2013/climate.2013-10-28-10.00.html | 10:33 |
| bauzas | Manager review to be delivered EOB todays and deps being rebased | 10:33 |
| bauzas | Reviews of 52296, 52294, 52903, 52396 and 49363 this week as priority | 10:33 |
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| bauzas | I would say the Manager review (45600) is still top priority | 10:34 |
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| bauzas | I'm taking the action to review the #49 patchset by this week, and if OK, merge it to trunk | 10:35 |
| bauzas | #action bauzas Review Manager code (45600) and if OK, merge it to trunk by end of the week | 10:35 |
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| bauzas | Nikolay_St: do you have other changes to be reviewed as prioritary ? | 10:36 |
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| Nikolay_St | bauzas: api tests as soon as I finish them | 10:36 |
| Nikolay_St | and then manager test | 10:36 |
| bauzas | ok | 10:36 |
| Nikolay_St | I think it'll be ok in 2 days | 10:37 |
| bauzas | when do you expect to finish the tests ? By this week ? | 10:37 |
| bauzas | ok | 10:37 |
| bauzas | let's take it as action but for the week after then | 10:37 |
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| Nikolay_St | okay | 10:37 |
| Nikolay_St | #action Review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/52903/ https://review.openstack.org/#/c/53896/ till 25 of November | 10:38 |
| bauzas | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/52296/ needs to be rebased | 10:39 |
| bauzas | who can do that ? | 10:39 |
| Nikolay_St | almost done | 10:40 |
| bauzas | yup, but I would like to review it quickly and add it to trunk | 10:40 |
| bauzas | and I don't want to both commit and review on the same patchset :) | 10:40 |
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| bauzas | scroiset: would you mind doing it ? | 10:41 |
| Nikolay_St | we need to merge manager service first | 10:41 |
| bauzas | Nikolay_St: oh, just saw you did it | 10:42 |
| bauzas | yep | 10:42 |
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| bauzas | but I will probably review both Manager and utils at the same time | 10:42 |
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| bauzas | #action bauzas Review 52296 by end of the week | 10:43 |
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| bauzas | ok, I think we're done with the review priorities | 10:43 |
| bauzas | the next step would be to review pcloud support (52294) but it will be refactored this week by scroiset | 10:44 |
| bauzas | so Nikolay_St and Dina, you won't have to review our code by this week | 10:44 |
| bauzas | next week, we would have probably to ask you to review a huge number of reviews thou | 10:45 |
| bauzas | make sure you dedicate enough time about it | 10:45 |
| Nikolay_St | oh, sorry about it | 10:45 |
| bauzas | no pb | 10:45 |
| bauzas | #info Physical use-cases reviews will need to be done intensively by next week, make sure dedicating enough time for it | 10:46 |
| bauzas | ok, I think w're done with this topic | 10:47 |
| bauzas | any other reviews to discuss ? | 10:47 |
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| bauzas | ok, last topic then | 10:48 |
| bauzas | #topic open discussion | 10:48 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: climate)" | 10:48 | |
| bauzas | any other concerns to raise, folks ? | 10:48 |
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| Nikolay_St | I don't think so | 10:48 |
| bauzas | me too | 10:48 |
| scroiset | nop | 10:48 |
| Nikolay_St | Can't remember anything to discuss | 10:48 |
| bauzas | ok, closing the conf then, thanks all for your presence | 10:49 |
| bauzas | #endmeeting | 10:49 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 10:49 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Nov 13 10:49:15 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 10:49 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/climate/2013/climate.2013-11-13-09.59.html | 10:49 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/climate/2013/climate.2013-11-13-09.59.txt | 10:49 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/climate/2013/climate.2013-11-13-09.59.log.html | 10:49 |
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| johnthetubaguy | #startmeeting XenAPI | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Nov 13 15:00:04 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is johnthetubaguy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: XenAPI)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'xenapi' | 15:00 |
| johnthetubaguy | hello everyone | 15:00 |
| johnthetubaguy | who is around for today's meeting? | 15:00 |
| zigo_ | Hi! | 15:00 |
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| johnthetubaguy | cool, waiting for a few others to drop in | 15:01 |
| johnthetubaguy | #topic Blueprints | 15:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Blueprints (Meeting topic: XenAPI)" | 15:02 | |
| johnthetubaguy | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/IcehouseXenAPIRoadmap | 15:02 |
| johnthetubaguy | so we had a good design summit session | 15:02 |
| johnthetubaguy | just wanted to make sure I got the summary of what we said correct: | 15:02 |
| johnthetubaguy | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/IcehouseNovaSummit | 15:03 |
| johnthetubaguy | The big headlines are deprecating stuff | 15:03 |
| johnthetubaguy | just wondering about who is going to come forward for some of the other features | 15:03 |
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| zigo_ | I'm sorry I missed them... :( | 15:03 |
| johnthetubaguy | and reminding people about getting blueprint in soon, and getting sponsors for those blueprints | 15:03 |
| BobBallAway | Sorry | 15:04 |
| BobBallAway | I'm here | 15:04 |
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| BobBallAway | looks like our clocks were wrong | 15:04 |
| matel | Hi | 15:04 |
| BobBallAway | Mate's clock says it's 2 minutes to | 15:04 |
| matel | It's 14:58 | 15:04 |
| BobBallAway | but mine says 4 minutes past! | 15:04 |
| johnthetubaguy | lol | 15:05 |
| matel | I'm pretty sure someone has already solved this problem. | 15:05 |
| johnthetubaguy | OK, so just wanted to go through my summary of the session | 15:05 |
| johnthetubaguy | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/IcehouseNovaSummit | 15:05 |
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| johnthetubaguy | mostly just the headlines about deprecating stuff | 15:05 |
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| johnthetubaguy | Then would be good to talk about blueprints for Icehouse-1 (and maybe Icehouse-2/3) | 15:06 |
| BobBallAway | The deprecations should never be headlines... :) | 15:06 |
| johnthetubaguy | ah, always headlines else no one reads it | 15:06 |
| johnthetubaguy | So, I have some dodgy draft patchs for: VCPU masking and VIF hotplug for XenAPI, so I will try push those soon | 15:07 |
| BobBallAway | perfect | 15:08 |
| johnthetubaguy | Did them while waiting for the plane first thing in the morning, so it could be all rubbish, not looked at them again | 15:08 |
| BobBallAway | Mate and I were just discussing VIF hotplug | 15:08 |
| johnthetubaguy | Got a patch for the kernel args stuff, but not seen the KVM patch go in yet, but I may have missed it | 15:08 |
| johnthetubaguy | Anyways, what do we think we want to do in Icehouse-1 | 15:09 |
| BobBallAway | Great | 15:09 |
| BobBallAway | Is that something that RS wants to use? | 15:09 |
| BobBallAway | The kernel args I mean | 15:09 |
| johnthetubaguy | Not yet, as far as I know, I was just bored in the airport, the shops had shut | 15:09 |
| BobBallAway | Wow - airport shops that were shut. That's new! | 15:09 |
| johnthetubaguy | just picked some easy stuff to hack on | 15:09 |
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| johnthetubaguy | Yeah, 2am flight out of HK | 15:10 |
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| BobBallAway | The real problem with Icehouse-1 is that it's only 4 weeks :( | 15:10 |
| BobBallAway | I think of all things -1 should be longer than -2 and -3 | 15:10 |
| BobBallAway | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Icehouse_Release_Schedule | 15:10 |
| BobBallAway | is the release schedule for those who haven't seen it | 15:10 |
| matel | Let's try to find some small items. | 15:10 |
| BobBallAway | When I say 4 weeks, I mean 3 weeks. | 15:10 |
| BobBallAway | 4 weeks total, 3 weeks left. | 15:11 |
| johnthetubaguy | right, well if they are bigger then so be it right? | 15:11 |
| johnthetubaguy | just start now and target Icehouse-2 | 15:11 |
| BobBallAway | Absolutely | 15:11 |
| johnthetubaguy | so whats that list? | 15:11 |
| BobBallAway | Targetting Icehouse-2 makes sense to me | 15:11 |
| matel | Maybe it's only me, but do we have a proper list, which just lists the items? | 15:11 |
| johnthetubaguy | I want to target icehouse-1, assuming I get them pushed up this week | 15:11 |
| johnthetubaguy | for those little bits I mentioned, but we can ignore them | 15:12 |
| johnthetubaguy | they are low priority | 15:12 |
| BobBallAway | I don't think there is a proper list Mate, no | 15:12 |
| BobBallAway | We've got the summit etherpad | 15:12 |
| matel | Should we create one? | 15:12 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, just the etherpad | 15:12 |
| BobBallAway | but that's got multiple lists | 15:12 |
| matel | Maybe a XenAPI wiki page? | 15:12 |
| BobBallAway | yes - let's create one | 15:12 |
| johnthetubaguy | why? | 15:12 |
| matel | So that it's a good starting point? | 15:12 |
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| johnthetubaguy | just collaspse the stuff in the etherpad into a single list | 15:13 |
| BobBallAway | Why on XenAPI wiki? | 15:13 |
| johnthetubaguy | if thats what we want | 15:13 |
| BobBallAway | yes agree with John | 15:13 |
| matel | It would be useful for me to have a proper list. | 15:13 |
| BobBallAway | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/IcehouseXenAPIRoadmap_Condensed | 15:13 |
| matel | Which would show the progress... | 15:13 |
| johnthetubaguy | what is proper? what info are you looking at? | 15:13 |
| johnthetubaguy | well thats the blueprints in launchpad right? | 15:13 |
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| matel | A list, who is assigned to it, and a link to the blueprint | 15:13 |
| johnthetubaguy | we just need to decide what is worth going into a blueprint for Icehouse | 15:13 |
| johnthetubaguy | sure | 15:14 |
| matel | Okay, let me find the perfect launchpad query. | 15:14 |
| johnthetubaguy | well, I think we are probably better doing this offline, and claiming things we want to work on in the etherpad? | 15:14 |
| matel | My problem with etherpad is that it's a bit too dynamic... | 15:14 |
| johnthetubaguy | its got versions and snapshots etc, just need to use them | 15:15 |
| johnthetubaguy | its ours to use as we please right? | 15:15 |
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| johnthetubaguy | anyways, feel free to put it into a wiki if that works better for you | 15:15 |
| matel | A launchpad query is fine. | 15:15 |
| BobBallAway | See the condensed list I just made | 15:15 |
| BobBallAway | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/IcehouseXenAPIRoadmap_Condensed | 15:15 |
| johnthetubaguy | just wondering if we can decide some big "Themes" of stuff we want to do | 15:15 |
| johnthetubaguy | cool, so who ones to own the deprecation stuff? | 15:16 |
| johnthetubaguy | wants to own^ | 15:16 |
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| matel | deprecation stuff - what does that mean? | 15:16 |
| BobBallAway | Absolutely not - it's fine to say it's deprecated, but I have no plans to actually remove it | 15:16 |
| johnthetubaguy | yes, we need to add log messages and stuff | 15:16 |
| johnthetubaguy | I can take that on | 15:17 |
| matel | you guys overuse stuff | 15:17 |
| BobBallAway | So you actually see that as a priority? | 15:17 |
| johnthetubaguy | yup | 15:17 |
| BobBallAway | heh :) | 15:17 |
| BobBallAway | So you'll add a BP for that then | 15:18 |
| johnthetubaguy | its extra stuff to maintain otherwise | 15:18 |
| johnthetubaguy | I will do what we need to, not sure what that is yet | 15:18 |
| matel | How can you specify a blueprint filter? | 15:18 |
| BobBallAway | I guess you're managing those two too | 15:18 |
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| matel | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/?searchtext=xenapi | 15:19 |
| matel | Is this the list that we need? | 15:19 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, that should do the trick | 15:19 |
| johnthetubaguy | not sure if you can tag blueprints, maybe not | 15:19 |
| BobBallAway | Thought you added the kernel command line support John? | 15:19 |
| matel | Let's say this is the list. | 15:19 |
| BobBallAway | That's the list of current blueprints | 15:20 |
| BobBallAway | however we need to write new ones for Icehouse | 15:20 |
| johnthetubaguy | indeed | 15:20 |
| johnthetubaguy | so what you fancy for Icehouse | 15:20 |
| matel | Or modify the existing ones. | 15:20 |
| johnthetubaguy | matel: sure, in some cases, could just mark some obsolete as well | 15:20 |
| BobBallAway | Personally I fancy us doing vGPU | 15:21 |
| BobBallAway | but I haven't sized things to see if that fits | 15:21 |
| johnthetubaguy | thats a good one, marketing wise | 15:21 |
| johnthetubaguy | how about PCI passthrough as well, given thats going to be changing good to get that in there | 15:22 |
| BobBallAway | It probably will, but I can't promise anything until next wednesday - we'll be having discussions internally on what we're prioritising | 15:22 |
| BobBallAway | Maybe | 15:22 |
| BobBallAway | PCI pass through is a poor-mans vGPU | 15:22 |
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| BobBallAway | and other people have expressed interest in helping | 15:22 |
| BobBallAway | so I don't want Citrix to commit to it. | 15:22 |
| johnthetubaguy | OK | 15:23 |
| BobBallAway | I think we can probably say it's likely to make I-3 - even if we don't do it ourselves | 15:23 |
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| BobBallAway | Don't need to advertise | 15:23 |
| johnthetubaguy | why? | 15:23 |
| BobBallAway | I'm in discussions with someone about it ATM | 15:23 |
| johnthetubaguy | OK, if they can be public it helps people | 15:24 |
| BobBallAway | it will be entirely public | 15:24 |
| BobBallAway | or did you mean now? It's some guys from bull.net who are interested | 15:24 |
| johnthetubaguy | what I mean is, we can same people are showing an intested, cool | 15:24 |
| BobBallAway | yup | 15:25 |
| johnthetubaguy | we will need full tempest before Icehouse-2 | 15:25 |
| johnthetubaguy | I mean 2 | 15:25 |
| johnthetubaguy | grrr | 15:25 |
| johnthetubaguy | I mean 3 | 15:25 |
| BobBallAway | Yup | 15:26 |
| BobBallAway | I'd like to see it in I-1 but realistically it might not make it till I-2 | 15:26 |
| BobBallAway | depends on what we have to do | 15:26 |
| johnthetubaguy | Ok | 15:27 |
| johnthetubaguy | I just saw your notes on neutron security groups, thats all | 15:27 |
| johnthetubaguy | is that neutron full tempest? | 15:27 |
| BobBallAway | yes | 15:27 |
| johnthetubaguy | cool | 15:27 |
| johnthetubaguy | using ML2? | 15:27 |
| BobBallAway | nova network full tempest is "working" | 15:27 |
| johnthetubaguy | right, in its broken way | 15:27 |
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| BobBallAway | Please expand? | 15:28 |
| matel | Sorry, what's the question here? | 15:28 |
| BobBallAway | Is neutron using ML2 | 15:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | well, I think you said the tests were not swesome at the moment | 15:28 |
| BobBallAway | uhhh I did? | 15:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | I was thinking about neutron + XenServer + ML2 and its status | 15:29 |
| johnthetubaguy | anyways, we can come back to that | 15:29 |
| matel | I don't know, if it's an ML2 config. | 15:29 |
| matel | Afaik ML2 is just a framework, isn't it? | 15:29 |
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| matel | I think secgroups will be broken there as well. | 15:30 |
| johnthetubaguy | duno about ML2 | 15:30 |
| johnthetubaguy | I got the idea it was the next generation plugin | 15:30 |
| matel | But the fair answer is that I don't know what is the status of ML2 - XenServer | 15:31 |
| johnthetubaguy | but anyways | 15:31 |
| johnthetubaguy | I added a few more into the back list with my name | 15:31 |
| johnthetubaguy | I notice there is nothing about getting XenServer onto supported APIs further | 15:31 |
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| BobBallAway | Correct | 15:32 |
| BobBallAway | That will be a priority again soon | 15:32 |
| BobBallAway | but we need changes in XenServre | 15:32 |
| johnthetubaguy | well, that should go on the list I guess | 15:32 |
| BobBallAway | and they won't fit in Augusta | 15:32 |
| johnthetubaguy | ah | 15:32 |
| BobBallAway | so XenServer changes will be post-Icehouse | 15:32 |
| johnthetubaguy | maybe not on the list then | 15:32 |
| johnthetubaguy | OK... | 15:32 |
| BobBallAway | hence no point in making changes in Icehouse for them :) | 15:32 |
| johnthetubaguy | so lets move away from blueprints | 15:32 |
| johnthetubaguy | we clearly need to all go away and do our own planning | 15:32 |
| johnthetubaguy | but we have a start | 15:33 |
| BobBallAway | yes | 15:33 |
| BobBallAway | That's our current thinking which is great | 15:33 |
| johnthetubaguy | cool | 15:33 |
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| BobBallAway | but all caveated by we need to do internal planning | 15:33 |
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| BobBallAway | do you care about live migrate for resize if it's being deprecated? | 15:34 |
| johnthetubaguy | resize down is deprecated | 15:34 |
| johnthetubaguy | not resize up | 15:34 |
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| BobBallAway | Hang on - isn't resize down is to be removed rather than deprecated? | 15:34 |
| johnthetubaguy | maybe that wasn't clear in the session, oops | 15:34 |
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| johnthetubaguy | we can't remove it | 15:35 |
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| BobBallAway | oh - why not? | 15:35 |
| johnthetubaguy | we can deprecate it in Icehouse then remove in J | 15:35 |
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| johnthetubaguy | its our agreed contract with users | 15:35 |
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| matel | I guess we can't remove anything - we need to deprecate things first. | 15:35 |
| matel | Which is good. | 15:35 |
| BobBallAway | meh | 15:35 |
| johnthetubaguy | and give them a chance to shout | 15:35 |
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| johnthetubaguy | to fix it up themselves, should they want it | 15:35 |
| BobBallAway | we change the contract willy nilly in other places :P | 15:35 |
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| BobBallAway | but fair enough :P | 15:35 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, we do define where the contract is firm | 15:36 |
| johnthetubaguy | the API | 15:36 |
| johnthetubaguy | almost everything else may change | 15:36 |
| johnthetubaguy | RPC must be backwards compatible | 15:36 |
| BobBallAway | ok | 15:36 |
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| johnthetubaguy | anyways | 15:36 |
| johnthetubaguy | #topic Docs | 15:36 |
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| johnthetubaguy | any updates here? | 15:37 |
| johnthetubaguy | any new plans? | 15:37 |
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| BobBallAway | 'fraid no updates or new plans | 15:38 |
| BobBallAway | we need to do it | 15:38 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sure, we can agree that :) | 15:38 |
| johnthetubaguy | #topic Bugs and QA | 15:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs and QA (Meeting topic: XenAPI)" | 15:38 | |
| johnthetubaguy | any updates on getting tempest running on all commits? | 15:38 |
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| BobBallAway | yes | 15:39 |
| BobBallAway | There's lots of work to do and lots of options to look at | 15:39 |
| BobBallAway | and we might need some hardware - so we'll probably be asking Rackspace if they can help out at all on that :) | 15:39 |
| BobBallAway | Chances are we have to use TripleO to get gating | 15:39 |
| johnthetubaguy | so how have you got running it in the cloud? | 15:39 |
| BobBallAway | because even if we can get it working in RS cloud, we need redundancy and it can't run in HP cloud | 15:40 |
| johnthetubaguy | we can have multiple regions | 15:40 |
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| BobBallAway | Monty was quite clear about RS vs HP cloud | 15:40 |
| johnthetubaguy | I am worried here about tempest running, not us gating on things | 15:40 |
| johnthetubaguy | I know we should have both to become a gate | 15:40 |
| BobBallAway | he didn't mention regions - and I assume he knows about them | 15:40 |
| BobBallAway | Ah, fair enough | 15:40 |
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| johnthetubaguy | I worry about tempest tests asap | 15:41 |
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| BobBallAway | well - our focus is gating. Not sure if we'll be pursuing full tempest non gating | 15:41 |
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| johnthetubaguy | we can talk to him separately about different regions, we have a lot more regions now then when they last looked | 15:41 |
| johnthetubaguy | Ah | 15:41 |
| johnthetubaguy | can I look at helping with tempest | 15:41 |
| johnthetubaguy | I don't want to drop out of tree | 15:41 |
| BobBallAway | Agreed | 15:41 |
| BobBallAway | What are you thinking we'd do though? | 15:42 |
| johnthetubaguy | an non-voting zuul test using rax cloud seems good | 15:42 |
| BobBallAway | use xenserver-core on a RS performance flavor? | 15:42 |
| johnthetubaguy | yup | 15:42 |
| BobBallAway | That's pretty close now I think/hope... ... ... :) | 15:42 |
| BobBallAway | as we discussed | 15:42 |
| johnthetubaguy | yes, but you said you were not going to bother with that any more | 15:42 |
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| johnthetubaguy | I see that as top priority myself | 15:42 |
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| BobBallAway | Let me refresh my memory on the current status then we can sync up outside of the meeting | 15:43 |
| johnthetubaguy | OK | 15:43 |
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| johnthetubaguy | well I am happy to help join up some docs | 15:43 |
| johnthetubaguy | dots^ | 15:43 |
| johnthetubaguy | if thats what we need to get tempest tests | 15:43 |
| BobBallAway | As we talked about at the summit I think the missing piece is that we might need to have a Nova call to boot a VM in HVM mode | 15:44 |
| johnthetubaguy | I can use the same thing to look at cloud-cafe tests, with cells, etc, etc | 15:44 |
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| johnthetubaguy | well, we have image sharing soon I hope, which is an alternative | 15:44 |
| BobBallAway | Maybe | 15:44 |
| BobBallAway | Monty wanted it to be set up on default images | 15:44 |
| BobBallAway | rather than a custom made one | 15:44 |
| BobBallAway | but perhaps he can be convinced on that | 15:45 |
| johnthetubaguy | well, we can see what we can do | 15:45 |
| johnthetubaguy | it might just mean building the cached template stuff etc could be a little harder | 15:45 |
| johnthetubaguy | lets sync up about the options | 15:45 |
| BobBallAway | yup | 15:45 |
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| johnthetubaguy | #topic Open Discussion | 15:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: XenAPI)" | 15:46 | |
| johnthetubaguy | anything else people are worrying about? | 15:46 |
| matel | A q | 15:46 |
| johnthetubaguy | matel: fire away | 15:46 |
| matel | Could we have this meeting in a video conference or something like that? | 15:46 |
| matel | Or what is your idea about it? | 15:47 |
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| johnthetubaguy | not really, IRC is the default, because you get minuets | 15:47 |
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| johnthetubaguy | there is a phone bridge that openstack has setup | 15:47 |
| BobBallAway | I think I'd rather see us change the things that mean that the IRC meetings are effective | 15:47 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sure, basically, what is causing you problems with participating? | 15:48 |
| johnthetubaguy | ideas are welcome | 15:48 |
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| johnthetubaguy | lets try them, if its better, we keep them | 15:48 |
| BobBallAway | they are not as useful as they should be ATM because the three of us are so close and talk during the week - so it's usually just a reminder of what we've already talked about | 15:48 |
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| johnthetubaguy | well, there is no point it just being a reminder, I usually find its new stuff for me | 15:48 |
| BobBallAway | If we had more participants from RS or the guys from bull.net (which I'll suggest) then the meeting would make more sense :P | 15:48 |
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| johnthetubaguy | what time would work for bull.net? | 15:49 |
| BobBallAway | I don't know - but I'm sure its' not a question of the meeting time. | 15:49 |
| johnthetubaguy | there is little for other at Rax to contribute at the moment, we are not really doing loads of work on the xenapi layer, its mostly all above that | 15:49 |
| BobBallAway | As I said - I'll suggest it | 15:49 |
| johnthetubaguy | sure, well happy to get bull.net more involved in these meeting, would be good to understand what is blocking participation | 15:50 |
| johnthetubaguy | we could try google hangout or whatever if this really doesn't work for everyone | 15:50 |
| johnthetubaguy | but not sure how much that will buy us | 15:50 |
| matel | Okay, then not do that. | 15:51 |
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| matel | I think it would be better if we had more people here. | 15:51 |
| matel | having a hangout would be a more closed thing. | 15:51 |
| BobBallAway | Even if they are only interested parties rather than people coding XenAPI | 15:51 |
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| johnthetubaguy | well, not sure who all these people would be, I have invited others working on XenAPI at Rax to drop in when they do related stuff | 15:52 |
| johnthetubaguy | but thats just not very often, apart from chasing down the odd bug | 15:52 |
| BobBallAway | It is a shame - cuz there are quite a few commits in the XenAPI tree from others at RS | 15:53 |
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| BobBallAway | e.g. one where it would have made a lot of sense was the ghosting work done a while ago, or the memory prediction stuff - they would have been useful to have IRC discussions about rather than discussions on the reviews | 15:53 |
| matel | I suggested the hangout, because sometimes I get lost in the communication, but that might only be me. | 15:54 |
| johnthetubaguy | well, we need to rework all that I think | 15:54 |
| johnthetubaguy | so might be worth it | 15:54 |
| johnthetubaguy | the main issue is this time doesn't work well for most of them | 15:54 |
| BobBallAway | Well we can move an hour later or to a diff day if that works better | 15:55 |
| matel | What time would work for them? | 15:55 |
| johnthetubaguy | thing is the old time we had that worked fro them, didn't work for you guys | 15:55 |
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| matel | What's the time that was working for them? | 15:56 |
| BobBallAway | But they weren't coming :) | 15:56 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sure | 15:56 |
| BobBallAway | If they were attending the meeting then it would have been a good reason to find a comproimise or stick with that time | 15:56 |
| johnthetubaguy | so lets just see what happens | 15:56 |
| BobBallAway | but since it was only us it didn't make sense to do it so late | 15:56 |
| johnthetubaguy | OK | 15:56 |
| BobBallAway | But this time should be OK most of the time anyway | 15:56 |
| matel | The main point here is that we just need to make it clear: these meetings are not useful enough, and we need to understand why is that. | 15:57 |
| BobBallAway | I used to have my call with Ant at this time | 15:57 |
| BobBallAway | :) | 15:57 |
| BobBallAway | I agree with Mate - I know you said you get new stuff John - but from my perspective they could be - and should be - more useful than I find them ATM | 15:57 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, he is in the texas office, all the nova devs are working from home | 15:57 |
| BobBallAway | Ahh - didn't know that | 15:58 |
| BobBallAway | so we have to work with west coast? :/ | 15:58 |
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| johnthetubaguy | our lead dev is west coast, comstud | 15:58 |
| BobBallAway | that's a pain... | 15:58 |
| BobBallAway | hadn't realised that | 15:58 |
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| BobBallAway | Anyway | 15:59 |
| BobBallAway | we're out of time | 15:59 |
| BobBallAway | John - could you have a chat with comstud and see if it's the meeting time that stops him attending, or something else? | 15:59 |
| BobBallAway | maybe others in the team you think would be useful | 16:00 |
| BobBallAway | I'll talk with the bull.net guys to see if they can come sometimes | 16:00 |
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| johnthetubaguy | well I don't think he generally has anything to discuss about XenAPI, he is working on the objects stuff and cells right now | 16:00 |
| johnthetubaguy | #endmeeting | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Nov 13 16:00:33 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/xenapi/2013/xenapi.2013-11-13-15.00.html | 16:00 |
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| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/xenapi/2013/xenapi.2013-11-13-15.00.txt | 16:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/xenapi/2013/xenapi.2013-11-13-15.00.log.html | 16:00 |
| johnthetubaguy | damm, sorry bob, meant to let you kill that one | 16:00 |
| BobBallAway | Well the cells stuff is kinda relevant if we're saying that pools should use cells :) | 16:00 |
| BobBallAway | oh | 16:01 |
| johnthetubaguy | well, not for six months or more | 16:01 |
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| BobBallAway | I'd forgotten :D | 16:01 |
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| BobBallAway | gotta run | 16:01 |
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| DuncanT- | Anybody for the cinder meeting? | 16:02 |
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| jungleboyj | Yes. jgriffith said this was the time. :-) | 16:02 |
| jbernard | i thought one more hour to go, no? | 16:02 |
| winston-d | no, should be now | 16:02 |
| jungleboyj | jbernard: No, DST change. | 16:02 |
| jbernard | ahh | 16:02 |
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| caitlin56 | i am | 16:03 |
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| * jungleboyj calendar is now updated to GMT. :-) | 16:06 | |
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| med_ | no, should be now as the meetings are on UTC | 16:07 |
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| DuncanT- | Give jgriffith 5 minutes then start without him.... | 16:08 |
| med_ | and it is 1600 right now | 16:08 |
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| DuncanT- | Mentioning his name usually summmons him... | 16:08 |
| med_ | he may be mid-commute | 16:08 |
| DuncanT- | He was online 30 mins ago and seemed to have the time shift correct | 16:09 |
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| guitarzan | sure... jgriffith reminds us all about DST and then doesn't show up | 16:10 |
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| med_ | heh | 16:10 |
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| DuncanT- | Shall we go anyway? | 16:13 |
| med_ | avishay should go imho | 16:13 |
| DuncanT- | #startmeeting Cinder | 16:13 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Nov 13 16:13:17 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is DuncanT-. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:13 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Cinder)" | 16:13 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'cinder' | 16:13 |
| winston-d | DuncanT-: good call | 16:13 |
| DuncanT- | avishay isn't here yet AFAICT | 16:13 |
| DuncanT- | Is Ehud Trainin here? | 16:14 |
| ehudtr | yes | 16:14 |
| jgriffith | go figure | 16:14 |
| DuncanT- | #topic Fencing | 16:14 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Fencing (Meeting topic: Cinder)" | 16:14 | |
| DuncanT- | Oh, hi Jogn, all yours ;-) | 16:14 |
| DuncanT- | Jogn? John even | 16:15 |
| jgriffith | :) | 16:15 |
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| jgriffith | Looks like Ehud is hanging with Dave W | 16:15 |
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| DuncanT- | ehudtr: The stage is all yours.... | 16:15 |
| ehudtr | Following last dicussion I agree two of your comments regarding the fencing implementation | 16:15 |
| ehudtr | I accept your comment fencing should take care also for detaching the volumes at the Cinder level. | 16:16 |
| ehudtr | I accept your comment it is not necessary to add into Cinder a blacklist of hosts nor an unfence method. | 16:16 |
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| ehudtr | I do think it should be possible to fence/force-detach a host through a new method of force-detach-host, rather then trying to change the current detach-volume method to force a detachment at the storage level and use such method for each one of the volumes attached to a host. | 16:17 |
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| ehudtr | for several reasons | 16:17 |
| ehudtr | In case of NFS it is not possible to force-detach a volume. | 16:17 |
| ehudtr | In cases it is possible, there would still be a problem when shared volumes would supported by Cinder | 16:18 |
| jgriffith | ehudtr: TBH in NFS we don't really ever detach to begin with :) | 16:18 |
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| ehudtr | It is an optimization, which may be valuable for fast recovery: send 1 request rather than N (e.g. 100) requests | 16:18 |
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| caitlin56 | Isn't "NFS support" something the specific volume driver would be responsible for? | 16:19 |
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| jgriffith | I still have the same concerns I raised previously WRT the complication and potential for errant fencing to occur | 16:19 |
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| ehudtr | I think we would like to prevent access at the storage level | 16:20 |
| caitlin56 | jgriffith: +1 | 16:20 |
| jgriffith | My only other question is "is this a real problem" | 16:20 |
| jgriffith | anybody else have any thoughts on this? | 16:20 |
| guitarzan | is there a proposal written up somewhere? | 16:21 |
| winston-d | live migration, maybe | 16:21 |
| DuncanT- | I think it is a real problem, yes. We do something very similar to a fence in compute node startup | 16:21 |
| jgriffith | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/cinder/+spec/fencing-and-unfencing | 16:21 |
| guitarzan | jgriffith: thanks! | 16:21 |
| ehudtr | Fencing is something standard done in HA clusters like pacemaker | 16:21 |
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| winston-d | someone reported such issue, when using ceph | 16:21 |
| jgriffith | too bad this wouldn't apply to Ceph :) | 16:21 |
| dosaboy | winston-d: did they raise a bug for that in the end, i did not see one | 16:22 |
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| jungleboyj | I think as OpenStack is moving to HA we need to be considering how Cinder fits into that. | 16:22 |
| ehudtr | The current option in openstack to do a rebuild without first fencing is a bug in my opinion | 16:22 |
| winston-d | dosaboy: no, i don't think so. | 16:22 |
| jgriffith | jungleboyj: don't confuse this with HA impl | 16:22 |
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| jgriffith | Ok | 16:23 |
| jgriffith | ehudtr: sounds like folks are in favor of moving forward on this | 16:23 |
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| jungleboyj | jgriffith: Ah, sorry. | 16:23 |
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| jgriffith | ehudtr: My concerns as I stated are just how to do this cleanly and mitigating having admins shoot themselves | 16:23 |
| guitarzan | as a counter example, we were looking at a way to do the exact opposite and whitelist at the ip level | 16:23 |
| jgriffith | guitarzan: I thnk that's kinda how the LIO target works | 16:24 |
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| jgriffith | guitarzan: or how it "could" work I guess, right now we just read the connector info but it has hooks to have a white list | 16:24 |
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| guitarzan | jgriffith: nice, I'll have to look at that | 16:25 |
| ehudtr | I think one possible way to prevent admin to press to easily on the fence botton is enabling only if a host in a failed state | 16:25 |
| DuncanT- | I can see the point of the idea... waiting to see code before I have a strong opinion... | 16:25 |
| DuncanT- | How does cinder know a host is failed? | 16:25 |
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| jgriffith | guitarzan: https://github.com/openstack/cinder/blob/master/cinder/brick/iscsi/iscsi.py#L441 | 16:25 |
| ehudtr | Cinder needs not know the host is failed Nova and possibly Heat will know | 16:26 |
| winston-d | DuncanT-: notified by Nova? | 16:26 |
| caitlin56 | I agree, cinder cannot determine this itself. It needs to come from other OpenStack components. | 16:27 |
| jgriffith | so add an API call to "notify-invalid-iqn's" or something of the sort? | 16:27 |
| jgriffith | and how is it cleared :) | 16:27 |
| jgriffith | nova has to then have another command to add something back in | 16:27 |
| jgriffith | honestly seems like this all needs to happen in nova first | 16:27 |
| caitlin56 | Would't it be a one time transition. "Clear any attached volumes held by this compute instance."? | 16:28 |
| jgriffith | I think there's more work there than on this side (ie failure detection etc) | 16:28 |
| jgriffith | caitlin56: sure, but if you blacklist a node, what happens when it comes back up and you want to add it back in to your cluster | 16:28 |
| jgriffith | You have to clear it somehow | 16:28 |
| jgriffith | It's not just clear current attach if I understand ehudtr correctly | 16:29 |
| caitlin56 | A node is attempting to re-attach without having been in contact with nova? | 16:29 |
| jgriffith | ehudtr: it's clear an attach and prevent that attach from being reconnected no? | 16:29 |
| jungleboyj | jgriffith: I was assuming that this would be managed by Nova and Cinder would just provide the tools. | 16:29 |
| jgriffith | thus the term "fencing" | 16:29 |
| jgriffith | jungleboyj: yes, that's what I'm getting at | 16:29 |
| jgriffith | jungleboyj: a good deal of nova work before getting to Cinder | 16:29 |
| jgriffith | and the Cinder side might not be so tough to implement | 16:30 |
| jungleboyj | jgriffith: +2 | 16:30 |
| jgriffith | emphasis on *might* | 16:30 |
| jgriffith | :) | 16:30 |
| caitlin56 | I can definitely see the need for nova being able to tell Cinder "this guy is gone" but "don't talk to this guy" is something more dangerous. | 16:30 |
| jungleboyj | jgriffith: Just wanted to emphasize that. | 16:30 |
| caitlin56 | Couldn't nova use neutron to enforce that without bothering Cinder? | 16:30 |
| jgriffith | caitlin56: but I think that's what we're talking about... ehudtr ?? ^^ | 16:30 |
| winston-d | and that's nova's problem | 16:30 |
| jgriffith | caitlin56: nope | 16:31 |
| ehudtr | Yes, I agree this would be managed by Nova. The fence host is needed to disconnect the host at the storage level | 16:31 |
| jgriffith | I don't want Neutron mucking about with my data path | 16:31 |
| DuncanT- | caitlin56: Nope, neutron doesn't get in the way of storage network usually | 16:31 |
| jgriffith | ehudtr: but the question is you also want to prevent the failed node from connecting again right? | 16:31 |
| jgriffith | I think this is where the debate started last week :) | 16:31 |
| jungleboyj | ehudtr: The important part is that you don't have the 'failed' host's node attempting to access the storage while the new node is being brought up. | 16:32 |
| jungleboyj | jgriffith: I would assume that is only if a new node has taken over. | 16:32 |
| caitlin56 | Such a "failed node" shouldn't be using *any* OpenStack services, right? It's not just Cinder. | 16:32 |
| jgriffith | Ok, two more minutes for this topic and then I think we should move on | 16:33 |
| jgriffith | jungleboyj: sure | 16:33 |
| jgriffith | caitlin56: haha... probably | 16:33 |
| DuncanT- | caitlin56: Some services multiple accesses don't matter... block store it does | 16:33 |
| jungleboyj | caitlin56: Depends on how it fails. In situations like this you need to cover all the bases. | 16:33 |
| jgriffith | this is where I went all wonky in the last discussion :) | 16:33 |
| ehudtr | Yes, this was part of the original suggestion, but last meeting you suggested that preventing the failed node attempting during a new node creation may be done in Nova. I checked it and it seems this might be done in Nova only after the attach volume would be moved from nova-compute to nova-conductor. | 16:34 |
| jgriffith | Ok... so my proposal: | 16:34 |
| jgriffith | ehudtr: | 16:34 |
| jgriffith | 1. Take a look at the nova work | 16:34 |
| jgriffith | Focus on things like failure detection | 16:34 |
| jgriffith | How you would generate a notification | 16:34 |
| jgriffith | what would be needed from cinder (if anything versus disabling the initiator files etc) | 16:35 |
| jgriffith | 2. After getting things sorted in Nova | 16:35 |
| ehudtr | I know how to do failure detection with Nova | 16:35 |
| jgriffith | Great, step 1 is almost done then :) | 16:35 |
| guitarzan | hah | 16:35 |
| jgriffith | Then put together the proposal, make sure the Nova team is good with that | 16:35 |
| jgriffith | from there we can work on providing an API in Cinder to fence of initiators | 16:36 |
| jgriffith | I'd like to see what the code for that looks like though | 16:36 |
| jgriffith | and how to clear it | 16:36 |
| jgriffith | ehudtr: sound reasonable? | 16:36 |
| ehudtr | yes | 16:36 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT-: guitarzan jungleboyj caitlin56 ok ^^ | 16:36 |
| jgriffith | winston-d: | 16:36 |
| DuncanT- | Sounds sensible to me | 16:36 |
| jungleboyj | jgriffith: Sounds good to me. Good summary to keep moving forward. | 16:36 |
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| jgriffith | winston-d: seem like that works for the error case you were thinking of? | 16:37 |
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| jgriffith | dosaboy: I have no idea how to make this work with Ceph but that's why you're an invaluable asset here :) | 16:37 |
| jgriffith | hemna_: you'll have to figure out FC :) | 16:37 |
| jgriffith | Ok... | 16:38 |
| guitarzan | just go yank the cable out | 16:38 |
| jgriffith | guitarzan: I'm down with that | 16:38 |
| jgriffith | guitarzan: DC Monkey.. fetch me that cable! | 16:38 |
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| hodos | hi guys, we at Nexenta are implementing a storage-assisted volume migration; we have run into a problem: there can be multiple storage hosts connected to a single NFS driver. So there's one-to-many mapping... | 16:38 |
| winston-d | dsfasd | 16:38 |
| jgriffith | #topic patches and release notes | 16:39 |
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| jgriffith | winston-d: what's dsfasd? | 16:39 |
| dosaboy | jgriffith: it may actually be easier for ceph since it has the notion of 'watchers' | 16:39 |
| guitarzan | winston-d: lagging? | 16:39 |
| jgriffith | dosaboy: yeah :) | 16:39 |
| winston-d | jgriffith: sorry lagging | 16:39 |
| jgriffith | haha | 16:39 |
| DuncanT- | hodos: Please wait until the any other business section of the meeting | 16:39 |
| jgriffith | no prob | 16:39 |
| jgriffith | So quick note on this topic | 16:39 |
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| hodos | ok, sorry ) | 16:39 |
| DuncanT- | #topic patches and release notes | 16:39 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "patches and release notes (Meeting topic: Cinder)" | 16:39 | |
| jgriffith | reviewers, I'd like for us when adding a patch that's associated with a BP or a Bug to update the doc/src/index file | 16:40 |
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| jgriffith | that way I don't have to go back and try to do it every milestone :) | 16:40 |
| jgriffith | Same format as what's there | 16:40 |
| jgriffith | simple summary, link | 16:40 |
| jgriffith | sound reasonable? | 16:40 |
| jgriffith | rolling release notes :) | 16:40 |
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| * jgriffith takes silence as agreement :) | 16:41 | |
| winston-d | sounds good | 16:41 |
| jungleboyj | jgriffith: Sounds reasonable. | 16:41 |
| jgriffith | or just plain lack of interest and apathy | 16:41 |
| jgriffith | kk | 16:41 |
| jgriffith | now to the hard stuff :) | 16:41 |
| DuncanT- | Something for reviewers to catch I guess... | 16:41 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT-: to catch yes | 16:41 |
| winston-d | we do agree to write a cinder dev doc, right. make sure this is documented as well | 16:42 |
| jgriffith | not a horribly big deal but it would be helpful IMO | 16:42 |
| jungleboyj | jgriffith: So just to be clear as a newbie ... | 16:42 |
| DuncanT- | Might be able to get a bot to catch simple cases after a while | 16:42 |
| jgriffith | winston-d: excelelnt point | 16:42 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT-: hmmm... perhaps a git hook, yes | 16:42 |
| jungleboyj | jgriffith: If I approve something associated with a BP I would need to go update that file with appropriate information? | 16:42 |
| jgriffith | jungleboyj: oh.. no | 16:42 |
| jgriffith | jungleboyj: so the idea is that the submitter would add it | 16:42 |
| jgriffith | when core reviews it we should look for that entry | 16:43 |
| jgriffith | if people hate the idea or think it's a waste that's ok | 16:43 |
| jgriffith | just say so | 16:43 |
| jgriffith | I don't mind doing it the way I have been | 16:43 |
| caitlin56 | and if you don't approve patches without that link people should learn very quickly. | 16:43 |
| jgriffith | just don't complain if your change isn't listed :) | 16:43 |
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| jungleboyj | jgriffith: Ahhh, ok ... That makes more sense. Thanks for the clarification. | 16:43 |
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| DuncanT- | I'd say we try it for a couple of weeks and see how it works out | 16:44 |
| jgriffith | works for me | 16:44 |
| jgriffith | trial basis | 16:44 |
| jgriffith | kk | 16:44 |
| jgriffith | #topic summit summary | 16:44 |
| jgriffith | hmmm | 16:44 |
| jgriffith | #topic summit-summary | 16:44 |
| jgriffith | come on meetbot | 16:44 |
| DuncanT- | #topic summit-summary | 16:45 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "summit-summary (Meeting topic: Cinder)" | 16:45 | |
| DuncanT- | I started the meeting | 16:45 |
| jungleboyj | It knows I am also in another summit summary meeting and my head may explode. | 16:45 |
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| jgriffith | lol | 16:45 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT-: thanks :) | 16:45 |
| jgriffith | okie | 16:45 |
| jungleboyj | o-) | 16:45 |
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| jgriffith | I threw a quick overview together: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/cinder-icehouse-summary | 16:45 |
| jgriffith | of course it's handy to review the etherpads from the sessions | 16:46 |
| jgriffith | but I wanted to capture the main points in one doc | 16:46 |
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| jgriffith | I *think* these are the items that we had moderate concensus on | 16:46 |
| jgriffith | the capabilities reporting maybe not so much... but I'm still pushing to go this route | 16:46 |
| jgriffith | We can always make things *harder* but I don't know that we should | 16:47 |
| DuncanT- | I'd add that we seemed to agree state machine with atomic transitions was a good route to try, re taskflow | 16:47 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT-: for sure | 16:47 |
| jgriffith | added | 16:47 |
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| jgriffith | anything else glaring that I missed (that somebody will actually get to)? | 16:48 |
| winston-d | jgriffith: i think most of us in this room agreed on those capabilities | 16:48 |
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| caitlin56 | Making snapshots a first layer object. | 16:48 |
| jgriffith | I left the import out intentionally for now by the way | 16:48 |
| DuncanT- | My take-away from the capabilities reporting was that we couldn't agree on anything at all | 16:48 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT-: I don't think that's really true | 16:48 |
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| jgriffith | I think one person didn't agree | 16:48 |
| DuncanT- | jgriffith: I see no harm in adding it anyway | 16:49 |
| jgriffith | I think most of us agreed with what i've put on the list | 16:49 |
| jgriffith | winston-d: I think you may have some other ideas/adds that would be fine as well | 16:49 |
| jgriffith | anyway... | 16:49 |
| jgriffith | anything pressing to add or remove here? | 16:49 |
| DuncanT- | jgriffith: O'll try to BP the stuff that redhat guy eventually explained, since it seemed valuable once I finally understood him | 16:49 |
| DuncanT- | s/O'll/I'll/ | 16:50 |
| jgriffith | We need more thought/info around the ACL's I think | 16:50 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT-: cool | 16:50 |
| winston-d | DuncanT-: can't wait to see the BP | 16:50 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT-: or work off the ehterpad for now | 16:50 |
| jgriffith | whichever is faster and more effective | 16:50 |
| jgriffith | if we reach concensus prior to the BP it might help :) | 16:50 |
| DuncanT- | jgriffith: Etherpad might be easiest... I'll post a link when I'm done | 16:51 |
| jgriffith | sounds good | 16:51 |
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| jgriffith | Everybody should feel free to put some notes add question to the etherpad | 16:51 |
| jgriffith | but the intent is not to open debate | 16:51 |
| jgriffith | just to focus on what's there and build the ideas up | 16:51 |
| jgriffith | and use that info to build blueprints | 16:51 |
| jgriffith | and assign :) | 16:51 |
| jgriffith | anybody want to talk more on that? | 16:52 |
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| jgriffith | if not I believe hodos had some things to talk about | 16:52 |
| jgriffith | #topic open | 16:52 |
| * jgriffith never learns | 16:52 | |
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| DuncanT- | #topic open | 16:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open (Meeting topic: Cinder)" | 16:52 | |
| hodos | ok so it touches not only Nexenta | 16:52 |
| jungleboyj | :-) | 16:53 |
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| jgriffith | hodos: back up... what's "it" | 16:53 |
| jgriffith | afraid I ignored you earlier :) | 16:53 |
| hodos | so if we want ot do storage-to-storage migration without routing data through Cinder | 16:53 |
| hodos | on NFS | 16:53 |
| hodos | we have 2 NFS drivers | 16:54 |
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| caitlin56 | hodos: our bigger priority is enabling more operations on snapshots. I think the fix required for NFS is too much to tackle by icehouse. | 16:54 |
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| thingee | lawl, time change | 16:55 |
| hodos | so how does the source driver knows what storage host to use on the dest | 16:55 |
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| jgriffith | thingee: :) | 16:55 |
| winston-d | thingee: you made it | 16:55 |
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| jgriffith | hodos: scheduler could help with that | 16:55 |
| caitlin56 | Speaking of snapshots, I didn't hear any opposition to enabling snapshot replication. Shouldn't that be added to your list jgriffith? | 16:55 |
| jgriffith | that is it's job after all | 16:55 |
| hodos | yes, but when I issue a command on the source storage driver | 16:55 |
| hodos | i need that info | 16:56 |
| jgriffith | hodos: :) | 16:56 |
| vito-ordaz | u | 16:56 |
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| jgriffith | hodos: frankly this is why I hate the whole "I'm going to talk to this backend directly" problem | 16:56 |
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| vito-ordaz | update_volume_stats for NFS driver not provide information about host | 16:56 |
| jgriffith | I'm not a fan of trying to implement Cinder based replication | 16:57 |
| hodos | hmm | 16:57 |
| * jgriffith thinks it's a bad idea | 16:57 | |
| thingee | why does the driver need to know which host (sorry catching up) | 16:57 |
| caitlin56 | jgriffith the alternative is inefficient replication | 16:57 |
| jgriffith | thingee: he wants to talk directly from his backend to his *other* backend | 16:57 |
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| hodos | to *my* other backend | 16:58 |
| jgriffith | caitlin56: actually the atlernative is cinder doesn't do replication | 16:58 |
| winston-d | vito-ordaz: feel free to add any capability that you want to report,just note that scheduler can only consume some of them (basic ones) | 16:58 |
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| med_ | maybe hodos is not a "he" | 16:58 |
| hodos | i'am | 16:58 |
| hodos | ) | 16:58 |
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| jgriffith | med_: fair | 16:58 |
| med_ | or not. | 16:58 |
| jgriffith | everyone... I aplogize for being gender specific | 16:58 |
| thingee | jgriffith, hodos: what's the use case? | 16:58 |
| guitarzan | thingee: migration from one backend to another | 16:59 |
| guitarzan | homogeneous | 16:59 |
| thingee | why does a driver have to know? shouldn't cinder just be the bridge with that knowledge? | 16:59 |
| hodos | yes, say the same vendor, so these backends know how to talk | 16:59 |
| vito-ordaz | problem it that NFS drivers can control many storage backend at the same time. | 16:59 |
| thingee | of another backend that meets that requirement...the scheduler will figure | 16:59 |
| guitarzan | thingee: so they can do it more cheaply | 16:59 |
| winston-d | hodos: don't we have a shortcut in migration? | 16:59 |
| guitarzan | it sounds hard to me :) | 16:59 |
| thingee | so cinder says, hey you two backends, talk to each other | 17:00 |
| hodos | ) | 17:00 |
| thingee | the other backend never initates it is my point | 17:00 |
| thingee | jgriffith: that's time | 17:00 |
| jgriffith | For the record, I don't think we should even implement replication in Cinder | 17:00 |
| guitarzan | got it | 17:00 |
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| guitarzan | DuncanT- has to throw the switch today | 17:00 |
| jgriffith | Let the sysadmin setup replication between devices if avaial and create a volume-type for it | 17:00 |
| DuncanT- | Right, I'm afraid we need to move channels | 17:00 |
| med_ | yep | 17:01 |
| DuncanT- | #endmeeting | 17:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Nov 13 17:01:02 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cinder/2013/cinder.2013-11-13-16.13.html | 17:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cinder/2013/cinder.2013-11-13-16.13.txt | 17:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cinder/2013/cinder.2013-11-13-16.13.log.html | 17:01 |
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| * hartsocks waves | 17:01 | |
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| hartsocks | Who's around for the VMwareAPI subteam? | 17:01 |
| tjones | good morning | 17:01 |
| rgerganov | hi guys | 17:02 |
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| hartsocks | #startmeeting VMwareAPI | 17:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Nov 13 17:03:22 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is hartsocks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: VMwareAPI)" | 17:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'vmwareapi' | 17:03 |
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| vito-ordaz | it's not replication it standard call migrate_volume | 17:03 |
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| hartsocks | Hey folks. Last week was the summit. | 17:04 |
| hartsocks | So we're just starting our IceHouse efforts. | 17:04 |
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| hartsocks | I'm going to spend some quality time with the bugs & reviews today and send out a note later. | 17:05 |
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| hartsocks | but, for today, I'll post the etherpad link Tracy & Gary used during the HK summit. | 17:05 |
| hartsocks | #link #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/T4tQMQf5uS | 17:06 |
| hartsocks | #undo | 17:06 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Link object at 0x39fba10> | 17:06 |
| hartsocks | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/T4tQMQf5uS | 17:06 |
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| hartsocks | Do we want to discuss blueprints that came out of that talk? | 17:06 |
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| tjones | i've started one on the heathcheck (config check) item. Ive gotten some interest from another team as well | 17:07 |
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| tjones | https://launchpad.net/rubick | 17:08 |
| ogelbukh | hi | 17:08 |
| ogelbukh | tjones: hello | 17:08 |
| tjones | hi ogelbukh | 17:08 |
| smurugesan | Hey all, Sabari here. Didn't realize Daylight ended, and we have the meeting an hour earlier. | 17:08 |
| ogelbukh | I confirm we're working on the configuration validation topic | 17:09 |
| tjones | i have not had a chance to look into your project yet but will today. | 17:09 |
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| ogelbukh | thanks! | 17:09 |
| tjones | great - lets not duplicate work :-) | 17:09 |
| ogelbukh | tjones: it would be awesome to get your feedback | 17:09 |
| hartsocks | Today I Learned (TIL) project Rubick. | 17:09 |
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| tjones | :-) hartsocks it would be great if you can take a look too as this started out as your idea | 17:10 |
| hartsocks | ogelbukh: so you are on Rubick? | 17:10 |
| ogelbukh | hartsocks: yes | 17:10 |
| hartsocks | tjones: Ideas are cheap, execution is hard. :-) | 17:10 |
| tjones | LOL | 17:10 |
| ogelbukh | we're getting it to stackforge atm | 17:10 |
| hartsocks | ogelbukh: so we started out (not just me) thinking we should fail-fast if our driver is configured wrong. | 17:11 |
| ogelbukh | we have a basic framework and reference implementation | 17:11 |
| ogelbukh | for keystone and couple other services | 17:11 |
| hartsocks | nice | 17:11 |
| ogelbukh | hartsocks: that's reasonable | 17:11 |
| hartsocks | ogelbukh: so this project would fit that? | 17:11 |
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| hartsocks | I guess I'm asking if it will be a library, service, or etc. | 17:12 |
| ogelbukh | well, we're planning it to be a service | 17:13 |
| ogelbukh | but we're in early stage now | 17:13 |
| ogelbukh | so we could adjust it | 17:13 |
| ogelbukh | for example, get a library and API service around it | 17:13 |
| hartsocks | nice. | 17:14 |
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| ogelbukh | and as I understand you want some call that will tell if the configuration is valid | 17:15 |
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| ogelbukh | as a hook in startup script | 17:15 |
| ogelbukh | correct? | 17:15 |
| hartsocks | basically, I'm all about accomplishing more with less work. If something validates the config already, let's not do that again. | 17:15 |
| ogelbukh | (one option) | 17:15 |
| ogelbukh | ok | 17:15 |
| tjones | yes there were 2 issues - bad config and servce health | 17:15 |
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| hartsocks | good point. Service health is a separate but related thing. | 17:16 |
| ogelbukh | yep | 17:16 |
| ogelbukh | hartsocks: tjones: could you explain your vision of service health check? | 17:17 |
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| * hartsocks defers to tjones c | 17:17 | |
| ogelbukh | just check that vCenter API is responsive? or something else? | 17:17 |
| tjones | perhaps we can meet separately on this once we have a chance to take a look ? so for checking our connection to VC - we would check that we can talk to it, that the clusters defined are there, that there are hosts in the cluster (other stuff probably) | 17:18 |
| rgerganov | I think there is health service in vCenter | 17:18 |
| ogelbukh | sure | 17:18 |
| tjones | there is but this is more checking that the nova.conf info matches what is in VC | 17:19 |
| ogelbukh | that deserves separate meeting | 17:19 |
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| ogelbukh | and probably more than one ) | 17:19 |
| tjones | ogelbukh: yes i am sure more than 1 ;-) | 17:19 |
| hartsocks | okay. | 17:19 |
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| hartsocks | We'll watch that one with interest. | 17:19 |
| ogelbukh | hartsocks: does it worth an action item? | 17:20 |
| hartsocks | #action tjones, hartsocks to follow up with ogelbukh on project Rubick | 17:20 |
| ogelbukh | excellent! | 17:20 |
| ogelbukh | thanks | 17:21 |
| tjones | ogelbukh: what timezone are you in? | 17:21 |
| ogelbukh | GMT+4 | 17:21 |
| tjones | ok will schedule appropriately | 17:21 |
| ogelbukh | thx | 17:22 |
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| hartsocks | Any other interesting/new things to come out of Hong Kong's design summit folks want to talk about? | 17:22 |
| hartsocks | I heard live-snapshots were nixed. I was looking forward to writing that one. | 17:23 |
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| tjones | i've got a link somewhere with notes… looking | 17:24 |
| tjones | here we go - https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/IcehouseNovaSummit | 17:24 |
| dims | hartsocks, they said NO to discovery of existing vm(s) | 17:25 |
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| tjones | dims: they said NO many many times :-D | 17:25 |
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| hartsocks | *lol* | 17:25 |
| dims | :) | 17:25 |
| dansmith | NO | 17:26 |
| dansmith | oh, sorry, it's a reflex | 17:26 |
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| hartsocks | *lol* | 17:26 |
| tjones | see - he did it again ;-) | 17:26 |
| dims | i have a TODO to write a blueprint for passing hints to select specific datastore / compute based on tags or something else | 17:27 |
| dims | dansmith, LOL | 17:27 |
| hartsocks | dims: oh! wait... | 17:27 |
| hartsocks | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/vmware-datastore-selection-by-scheduler-filter | 17:27 |
| hartsocks | I wrote this BP up a while ago, 'cuz the way we're doing datastore now is kind of forced by not getting any hints down from the scheduler. | 17:28 |
| dims | another feedback was to find a better abstraction other than the virt driver (may be something similar to cells) over time | 17:28 |
| dansmith | +1024 | 17:28 |
| dims | hartsocks, right, if we can get scheduler to help select something, then the driver would honor that | 17:28 |
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| hartsocks | dims: yeah, our current driver design is just the way it is because the scheduler doesn't know about the datastores. | 17:29 |
| hartsocks | dims: however, I don't know much about cells. | 17:30 |
| hartsocks | dims: is that a distributed scheduler design? | 17:30 |
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| dansmith | hartsocks: cells breaks nova up into .. cells | 17:31 |
| dansmith | hartsocks: but specifically, it breaks it up into chunks of things that have their own scheduler inside them, and a group of compute hosts | 17:31 |
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| dansmith | so something gets scheduled quickly to a cell, and then again within the cell | 17:32 |
| dims | hartsocks, a nova cell would be one implementation is what i heard being said - https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Blueprint-nova-compute-cells...someone has to come up with API's so a nova cell or a vsphere impl would be 2 implementations of something higher than a virt driver | 17:32 |
| dansmith | the way you guys are treating a whole vsphere cluster as a single compute host through the virt driver API is something we want to do away with at some point, and exposing yourself as a cell may be the way to do that | 17:32 |
| dansmith | you're not the only offender, just the most icky one :) | 17:32 |
| * hartsocks bows | 17:33 | |
| dims | hartsocks, there was general admiration for the minesweeper work. so kudos. | 17:33 |
| dansmith | and I meant "vmware" not "hartsocks" as the target of my "you're" of course | 17:33 |
| hartsocks | In our defense, we kind of inherited what's there now and had to make it "work" :-) | 17:33 |
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| hartsocks | :-) | 17:34 |
| dansmith | hartsocks: not only that, but there is no higher abstraction in which to plug yourselves in, so it couldn't be any different right now anyway | 17:34 |
| dims | right | 17:34 |
| tjones | dansmith: isn't VC like a cell then? | 17:35 |
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| dansmith | tjones: I don't actually know the details of VC, VS, etc | 17:35 |
| hartsocks | Just for group knowledge... | 17:35 |
| dansmith | tjones: but anything that hides >1 compute node behind a single virt driver in nova is what we're trying to avoid | 17:35 |
| ogelbukh | concepts look very similar to me | 17:35 |
| hartsocks | vCenter is a server that binds multiple ESXi together. | 17:35 |
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| dansmith | i.e. anything that ends up scheduling underneath nova | 17:36 |
| ogelbukh | though I'm not an expert in vmware nor in cells | 17:36 |
| hartsocks | the hypervisor + API are in aggregate called vSphere. | 17:36 |
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| dansmith | hartsocks: meaning vcenter is a thing, and vcenter+esx == vsphere ? | 17:36 |
| hartsocks | yeah | 17:36 |
| hartsocks | more or less. | 17:36 |
| dansmith | okie | 17:36 |
| hartsocks | The bare hypervisor has API | 17:37 |
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| ogelbukh | the main difference between cell and vsphere+vcenter is that cells communicate via rpc | 17:37 |
| dims | hartsocks, problem is right now we implement driver.ComputeDriver - someone needs to define driver.CellDriver and Nova Cell and VC and ovirt would be implementations | 17:37 |
| hartsocks | The vCenter has API | 17:37 |
| dansmith | so yeah, if the nova driver is managing an ESX, then that's fine. if it's managing a vcenter then it's bad | 17:37 |
| hartsocks | BTW … together all the API are vSphere | 17:37 |
| ogelbukh | which would not be a case with VC to my knowledge | 17:37 |
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| hartsocks | vCenter can do some things that are scheduler level… but… I think there are some things it doesn't do. | 17:38 |
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| hartsocks | The API are easier to work with through vCenter… so what I would hope is ... | 17:39 |
| * hartsocks digs out blueprint | 17:39 | |
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| hartsocks | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/vmware-auto-inventory | 17:39 |
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| hartsocks | … this would be having vCenter just act as an API proxy to the driver. | 17:40 |
| ogelbukh | so some driver will be required in cells | 17:40 |
| ogelbukh | to plug in vc api to replace an rpc | 17:40 |
| ogelbukh | right? | 17:40 |
| dansmith | hartsocks: is vcenter a horizontally scalable service? | 17:40 |
| hartsocks | not really. | 17:40 |
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| hartsocks | it's a kind of management API server. | 17:41 |
| dansmith | hartsocks: then it's pretty uncloudy to use it for more than one compute node, right? | 17:41 |
| dansmith | I don't mean to take up your meeting time with this, it just snowballed | 17:41 |
| hartsocks | heh. I'm kind of bad for letting things go into the weeds. | 17:41 |
| hartsocks | Just to cap this off tho' | 17:42 |
| tjones | you can link multiple VC to scale out | 17:42 |
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| tjones | wow - sorry for the bold - dunno how that happened | 17:42 |
| hartsocks | tjones: I don't see bold | 17:42 |
| tjones | ok good - i do | 17:42 |
| tjones | looks like shouting | 17:42 |
| hartsocks | *lol* | 17:42 |
| hartsocks | Long and short… I don't think the metaphors match up cleanly so I think we need some creative lee-way... | 17:43 |
| tjones | hartsocks: i think we need to look into cells and see how this maps out | 17:44 |
| dansmith | again, cells is not really suitable for this right now, | 17:44 |
| hartsocks | dansmith: is that something we should invest in helping with? | 17:44 |
| dansmith | we're just saying you seem a lot more like a cell than a virt driver, but I'm happy to have a discussion about the real architecture of vmware stuff so we know what we're talking about | 17:44 |
| dansmith | hartsocks: yes, definitely | 17:45 |
| hartsocks | cool. | 17:45 |
| hartsocks | #action vmwareapi team to spend some time with cells | 17:45 |
| dansmith | but lets have a discussion about what vmware really looks like under the covers sometime before we get too far towards anything | 17:45 |
| hartsocks | #undo | 17:45 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Action object at 0x3652350> | 17:45 |
| hartsocks | okay how about this... | 17:45 |
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| hartsocks | #action vmwareapi team to discuss driver and cells with core team | 17:46 |
| dansmith | sure | 17:46 |
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| hartsocks | #topic open-discussion | 17:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open-discussion (Meeting topic: VMwareAPI)" | 17:47 | |
| hartsocks | not that we weren't kind of there already. | 17:47 |
| hartsocks | :-) | 17:47 |
| tjones | :-D | 17:48 |
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| ogelbukh | ) | 17:48 |
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| hartsocks | If you have a "my pants are on fire" bug… nows the time to mention it :-) | 17:49 |
| rgerganov | is it ok to work on this bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1216209 | 17:50 |
| rgerganov | or this is in conflict with the scheduler story | 17:50 |
| rgerganov | from the blueprint? | 17:50 |
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| hartsocks | rgerganov: IMHO we have to make what's there work reasonably, many of these things will take significant time to iron out… so… especially if it's back-port potential we should still fix it. | 17:51 |
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| tjones | vuil: are you working on that one? | 17:52 |
| tjones | it's assigned to you | 17:52 |
| hartsocks | I'm going to target that one to icehouse-1 … that seems like a significant thing to get working. | 17:53 |
| rgerganov | ok | 17:54 |
| hartsocks | rgerganov: thanks for highlighting it. | 17:54 |
| rgerganov | vuil: please tell if you don't mind to help on this | 17:54 |
| rgerganov | sure | 17:54 |
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| hartsocks | #action followup on +bug/1216209 | 17:55 |
| tjones | im looking for him in the other room but he's not around. | 17:55 |
| hartsocks | yeah, we'll have to follow up later. I figured the DST change would mess up some people | 17:55 |
| hartsocks | Anything else folks need to talk about? | 17:57 |
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| hartsocks | Okay. | 17:58 |
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| hartsocks | We're over in #openstack-vmware if you want to chat. | 17:59 |
| hartsocks | #endmeeting | 17:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Nov 13 17:59:31 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:59 |
| tjones | vuil is there too | 17:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/vmwareapi/2013/vmwareapi.2013-11-13-17.03.html | 17:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/vmwareapi/2013/vmwareapi.2013-11-13-17.03.txt | 17:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/vmwareapi/2013/vmwareapi.2013-11-13-17.03.log.html | 17:59 |
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| notmyname | swift meeting time https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Swift | 19:01 |
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| notmyname | #startmeeting swift | 19:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Nov 13 19:01:35 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is notmyname. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'swift' | 19:01 |
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| notmyname | thanks for joining. today's agenda is at https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Swift | 19:01 |
| notmyname | who's here | 19:01 |
| notmyname | ? | 19:01 |
| peluse | here | 19:01 |
| zaitcev | o/ | 19:02 |
| portante | o/ | 19:02 |
| torgomatic | o/ | 19:02 |
| briancline | +1 | 19:02 |
| koolhead17 | o/ | 19:02 |
| * clayg lurks | 19:02 | |
| notmyname | great | 19:02 |
| lincolnt | o/ | 19:02 |
| notmyname | so first item of business it to figure out the proper way to wrap uuid4(). because reasons | 19:02 |
| notmyname | ;-) | 19:02 |
| notmyname | (not really) | 19:02 |
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| zaitcev | I am confused. How hard can it be? | 19:03 |
| notmyname | #topic HK summit recap | 19:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "HK summit recap (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:03 | |
| briancline | we'll need a plugin manager | 19:03 |
| notmyname | the hong kong summit was great | 19:03 |
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| peluse | agreed! | 19:03 |
| notmyname | swift keynote on the first day. kinetic drives. just about every conversation involved storage policies. tons of interest from IBM, HP, and others | 19:03 |
| notmyname | thanks peluse for doing the multi-ring demo | 19:04 |
| peluse | my pleasure! I'm just glad it worked :) | 19:04 |
| notmyname | heh | 19:04 |
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| notmyname | overall, I was very happy with the summit. part of that, I think, was because we had the hackathon 2 weeks prior | 19:04 |
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| notmyname | any other questions or comments about the summit? | 19:05 |
| peluse | I miseed the mercado libre talk but saw it was posted on IRC - good to watch if anyone missed it | 19:05 |
| notmyname | I think koolhead17 has a blog post about it (from a swiftstack perspective) that will go up soon. If needed, I can fill in any other gaps from a general swift perspective | 19:05 |
| zaitcev | creiht's RAX preso was V.interesting, although he didn't divulge the number of objects | 19:05 |
| notmyname | oh yeah. mercado libre loves swift | 19:05 |
| notmyname | ya, RAX talked about 85 PB across their swift clusters (raw) | 19:06 |
| notmyname | 20 PB deployed in france by enovance for cloudwatt | 19:06 |
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| koolhead17 | Swift ^^ | 19:06 |
| notmyname | global clusters from concur | 19:06 |
| creiht | zaitcev: :) | 19:06 |
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| notmyname | zaitcev: billions and billions? | 19:06 |
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| clayg | I think the most interesting part was creiht's sports coat - very snazzy | 19:07 |
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| creiht | haha | 19:07 |
| notmyname | probably part of his new secret job as a spy | 19:07 |
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| peluse | don't sell yourself short clayg - the daemon factory stuff eas very cool | 19:07 |
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| clayg | yeah i suppose I need to finish that up and get up a patch | 19:08 |
| zaitcev | I understand the danger of racing Azure and S3 but I was thinking about how much our containers can take... S3 has some nifty auto-sharding thing, and I am curious if we're at the point where we need it or not. | 19:08 |
| notmyname | the profiling middleware stuff was very cool. along with clayg's "pluggable" things | 19:08 |
| clayg | whoa! | 19:08 |
| portante | were the unconference sessions recorded as well? | 19:08 |
| notmyname | zaitcev: we've "always" needed it. and we've always said "just use ssds" | 19:08 |
| notmyname | portante: not AFAIK | 19:08 |
| notmyname | portante: not any tech sessions, actually | 19:09 |
| portante | oh | 19:09 |
| portante | would be interested in blog posts on those sessions | 19:09 |
| notmyname | there was also a really interesting tech session where a potential user went down a list of questions, essentially evaluating swift as the storage engine for a massive global messaging app | 19:09 |
| portante | clayg: was your "pluggable" things recorded? | 19:09 |
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| briancline | me as well, I was pulled between the general and design stuff far too much | 19:09 |
| notmyname | I want to try to have that in atlanta again in may | 19:09 |
| torgomatic | atlanta? | 19:10 |
| notmyname | also, next summit is in atlanta in may | 19:10 |
| portante | or in the atlantic? | 19:10 |
| notmyname | then paris in november | 19:10 |
| peluse | have what in atlanta? | 19:10 |
| glange | the paris summit is going to be so romantic | 19:10 |
| notmyname | peluse: a tech session similar to the one LINE did this time where they are asking real-world use case questions about swift | 19:10 |
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| peluse | ahh, gotcha | 19:11 |
| notmyname | glange: nothing like eating snails under the eiffel tower | 19:11 |
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| notmyname | anything else on HK or the summit? | 19:11 |
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| peluse | any next steps on the profiling middleware? | 19:12 |
| notmyname | thanks to everyone who participated there | 19:12 |
| notmyname | peluse: I think it's up for review | 19:12 |
| portante | any design decisions made? | 19:12 |
| peluse | I think KT was asking for core comm to pick it up right? | 19:12 |
| notmyname | portante: like normal, not really | 19:12 |
| portante | was it really a design summit for tings? | 19:12 |
| portante | k | 19:12 |
| notmyname | portante: never really has been for swift | 19:12 |
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| notmyname | portante: that stuff normally happens in irc and in the day-to-day (and now maybe at hackathons) | 19:12 |
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| portante | but nobody else in openstack made sweeping design decisions that affect swift either? | 19:13 |
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| notmyname | portante: not that I know of. I'm sure they'll let us know ;-) | 19:13 |
| torgomatic | well, we are going to be switching to Trove-provisioning for our Mongo databases, which are replacing sqlite | 19:13 |
| portante | :) | 19:13 |
| torgomatic | also, rabbitmq EVERYWHERE | 19:13 |
| portante | torgomatic: I hope you are joiking | 19:13 |
| notmyname | torgomatic: before or after using a pluggable library to replace uuid4()? | 19:13 |
| portante | joking | 19:13 |
| notmyname | ok, let's move on :-) | 19:14 |
| notmyname | #topic swift-bench separation | 19:14 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "swift-bench separation (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:14 | |
| notmyname | this needs to happen. it's half-done now, which is really the worse place to be | 19:14 |
| notmyname | and volunteers to lead the -ectomy in swift and cleaning up the swift-bench repo? | 19:15 |
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| notmyname | *crickets* | 19:15 |
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| * portante whistles quietly to himself | 19:16 | |
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| * torgomatic takes one giant step backward | 19:16 | |
| zaitcev | I thought Sam knew what he was doing there | 19:16 |
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| torgomatic | I know what needs to happen, but I'm doing other stuff at the moment | 19:16 |
| notmyname | as is everyone else it seems ;-) | 19:16 |
| clayg | it's just so easy to not care about patches that want to add dependencies to swiftclient for "reasons" and admit that having bench in repo is sorta handy in a super lazy sort of way. | 19:16 |
| notmyname | clayg: heh, ya | 19:17 |
| notmyname | ok, I want to keep it in everyone's mind. still an outstanting TODO | 19:17 |
| clayg | BEFORE ICEHOUSE! | 19:17 |
| * clayg feels a mantra coming on | 19:17 | |
| notmyname | I can keep bugging people in day-to-day IRC | 19:17 |
| notmyname | #topic test coverage | 19:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "test coverage (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:18 | |
| clayg | you should tag it to a milestone | 19:18 |
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| notmyname | clayg: ooohh. that's a good way to get it done ;-) | 19:18 |
| zaitcev | I am having a vague feeling that Fedora packaging may win if we separate... I did stuff like that before but I need to see the benefit. | 19:18 |
| portante | how 'bout create a test that fails until it is done? | 19:18 |
| notmyname | in my catching up after the summit, there were some concerns raised about patches landing that lowered test coverage | 19:18 |
| clayg | out coverage went down? | 19:19 |
| notmyname | mostly this is a reminder to make sure that test coverage is checked when doing reviews | 19:19 |
| notmyname | new patches should have tests for the lines of code they change | 19:19 |
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| notmyname | but we don't have a formal gate on that, so it's easy to miss it from time to time | 19:20 |
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| clayg | moar gates! moar gates! moar gates! | 19:20 |
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| notmyname | anyone want to add anything specifically here, or can we leave it at that? | 19:20 |
| zaitcev | I don't see a lot of low-hanging fruit... | 19:20 |
| zaitcev | Container updater pehrpas | 19:20 |
| portante | notmyname: I believe there is a POST commit job that runs the coverage, but is not used | 19:20 |
| clayg | I'm getting like total 91% on my machine, i thought stuff had been coming up cause people have been adding tests for all that crap we never tested | 19:21 |
| zaitcev | I once was dinged for lowering coverage... That was awful. | 19:21 |
| * clayg glares at db_replicator | 19:21 | |
| notmyname | ya, and I'm looking forward to the discoverable constraints thingy landing so that we can add similar coverage to functional tests | 19:21 |
| notmyname | just saw this in -infra: "turns out swift wasn't designed to run in a single VM " yay! | 19:21 |
| clayg | REWRITE! | 19:22 |
| zaitcev | What do you mean wasn't designed? What about SAIO? | 19:22 |
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| notmyname | zaitcev: as in devstack. one replica on one loopback device with one process in one vm | 19:22 |
| notmyname | #topic metadata search API | 19:22 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "metadata search API (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:23 | |
| notmyname | HP presented on adding a metadata search API into swift | 19:23 |
| notmyname | and softlayer has had something like that for a while | 19:23 |
| lincolnt | Hi there, I presented. | 19:23 |
| notmyname | lincolnt: you led the talk in HK. take it away | 19:23 |
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| lincolnt | See https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/MetadataSearch | 19:24 |
| lincolnt | The design session went well, thanks everyone for the great feedback! | 19:24 |
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| lincolnt | Brian Cline (SoftLayer) and I have updated the blueprint and started that Wiki page | 19:24 |
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| lincolnt | I posted our strawman API spec we wrote at HP | 19:24 |
| lincolnt | And the design session slides | 19:24 |
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| portante | can you provide a sample use case? | 19:25 |
| lincolnt | We're developing against that spec for proof-of-concept | 19:25 |
| clayg | portante: you have metadata - you want to search it | 19:25 |
| lincolnt | treating Swift as a black box, but we (all) want it to be a new standard API and ref impl for Swift. | 19:25 |
| portante | just searching x-*-meta-* keys? | 19:25 |
| notmyname | portante: my understanding is that softlayer (IBM) has it, HP wants it, and they don't want there to be 50 different APIs to do it | 19:26 |
| lincolnt | portante: "Show me all objects in all containers where the object count > 10 and the last modified time is in the last 30 days and > 1 GB" | 19:26 |
| clayg | portante: probably more like content-type and size and last modified and stuff | 19:26 |
| clayg | oh heh | 19:26 |
| * clayg backs away | 19:26 | |
| creiht | searching user meta data would be nice | 19:26 |
| lincolnt | ...and BTW where the container-meta-location = "New Zealand" and object-meta-physician = "Smith" | 19:26 |
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| tomerm | the api support searching both system AND user metadata | 19:27 |
| briancline | precisely, we'd like to adopt whatever becomes the standard | 19:27 |
| lincolnt | Yes, searching system and custom metadata are both spec'd in the API | 19:27 |
| portante | so we'll need to formally define the system metadata, unless we already do that today? | 19:27 |
| lincolnt | The proposed API is broader and (we hope) more flexible/featureful/extensible than SoftLayer's but they have theirs established so they will be critical to the new API's success | 19:28 |
| notmyname | lincolnt: so what's the next step? | 19:28 |
| clayg | i'm keen on doing interesting indexing tricks with container db's, i don't really want "cluster search" and I'm less concerened about the api as long as it's usable. | 19:28 |
| zaitcev | I am wondering if it's a great way to bring the system to its knees by launching queries that chew up CPU | 19:28 |
| lincolnt | Asking everyone to review the Wiki, API, slides, and the blueprint pages there... | 19:28 |
| lincolnt | Give us your experiences / needs / wishlists for what you'd like to search in Swift metadata... | 19:28 |
| lincolnt | Poke holes in the API... | 19:28 |
| notmyname | lincolnt: how do you want feedback? | 19:28 |
| lincolnt | Suggest implementations e.g. metadata index stores to use. | 19:29 |
| notmyname | does this need to be on the openstack-dev mailing list? do we do it on the wiki? in IRC? what's best for you? | 19:29 |
| lincolnt | How would be best for the community? Add to the Wiki (I'd like, collects in one place)? | 19:29 |
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| briancline | preferably mailing list for discussion, with the wiki for the evolving idea on what it should look like | 19:29 |
| notmyname | the mailing list is best for async discussion | 19:29 |
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| notmyname | ya, what briancline said | 19:29 |
| lincolnt | We (briancline and I) will be sending a openstack-dev email after this, asking for the same inputs | 19:29 |
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| notmyname | the risk is too much "wrap uuid4()" style comments | 19:30 |
| notmyname | lincolnt: great | 19:30 |
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| lincolnt | Cool, we can own the Wiki and update it based on email list feedback | 19:30 |
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| notmyname | sounds good. thanks | 19:30 |
| notmyname | anything else on that topic for this meeting? | 19:31 |
| briancline | zaitcev: that'll depend largely on what sort of indexing backend one uses, but for as long as we've had it out there I don't think we've had any issues like that | 19:31 |
| lincolnt | zaitcev: Yes, good point, query optimizaton will be crucial | 19:31 |
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| lincolnt | And swift (ha) responses and ingests into the tables | 19:31 |
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| gholt | notmyname: We're starting to test ssync in staging now. Hopefully in prod in 2-3 weeks. | 19:31 |
| lincolnt | Also let me introduce tomerm, our primary developer of HP's PoC | 19:31 |
| notmyname | gholt: cool. I saw that you had packaged it | 19:31 |
| tomerm | hi | 19:31 |
| notmyname | tomerm: hi. welcome | 19:31 |
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| lincolnt | You can ping either of us, or briancline, on IRC | 19:32 |
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| gholt | notmyname: Oh sorry, I read your question as "anything else" without the "on that topic" ah well ;) | 19:32 |
| dfg | can I suggest that we fix the whole POST as copy thing if we're going to add metadata searching? | 19:32 |
| notmyname | gholt: :-) | 19:32 |
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| gholt | dfg: How's it broke again? | 19:32 |
| notmyname | dfg: ya, that's a good idea | 19:32 |
| notmyname | gholt: make POSTs update containers so you get fast posts | 19:32 |
| dfg | its not broken- but make it faster for large objects. | 19:33 |
| dfg | if we're going to be searching on metadata being able to do POSTs without COPYing the whole object seems like it'll come in handy | 19:33 |
| dfg | but maybe not | 19:33 |
| gholt | Gotcha, tbh I can't remember why we have the two POST processes anymore. Lol | 19:34 |
| torgomatic | something something container sync something something? | 19:34 |
| lincolnt | dfg: Please reply to the upcoming openstack-dev email we send on this topic, I think I know what youre talking about, good idea. | 19:34 |
| clayg | i mostly remember blaming container sync | 19:34 |
| dfg | i don't think there is a good reason- just time to fix | 19:34 |
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| notmyname | it's an optimization, but I can see how POST would be more popular if metadata searches are available | 19:34 |
| clayg | but I agree the real issue was content-type and container updates | 19:34 |
| briancline | quick side note, on the SoftLayer side, sudorandom and CrackerJackMack are also extremely familiar with our implementation if questions come up, however their availability may vary for this topic | 19:34 |
| notmyname | kk | 19:34 |
| clayg | notmyname: with the x-delete-at stuff it's already sorta getting in style to run fast-post | 19:34 |
| dfg | i might have gotten unsubscribed from openstack-dev... | 19:35 |
| notmyname | dfg: filtering to /dev/null doesn't count as unsubscribe | 19:35 |
| CrackerJackMack | I'm quasi available via IRC | 19:35 |
| peluse | is there already a bp to address POST w/o copy? | 19:35 |
| gholt | Yeah, every once in a while I think Rackspace marks it as spam and bounces everything and you have to resub | 19:35 |
| clayg | gholt: sounds like a feature | 19:36 |
| notmyname | gholt: and I'm not sure that's always a wrong choice ;-) | 19:36 |
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| notmyname | ok, moving on from metadata search | 19:37 |
| notmyname | thanks lincolnt | 19:37 |
| notmyname | #topic timestamps + modified-since headers | 19:37 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "timestamps + modified-since headers (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:37 | |
| notmyname | portante: you're up | 19:37 |
| portante | so are folks familiar with the problem? | 19:37 |
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| notmyname | rfc calls for int timestamps? | 19:37 |
| portante | we store timestamps using microsecond resolution | 19:37 |
| portante | the http protocol only allows for seconds resolution in last-modified, if-[un]modified-since heasders | 19:38 |
| portante | so if you HEAD an object after PUTing it | 19:38 |
| portante | you get a truncated timestamp: 13.9 ends up being 13 | 19:39 |
| portante | if you then use that last-modified value with if-unmodified-since, you get a 412 | 19:39 |
| portante | if you use that with if-modified-since you'll fetch the object, even though it has not changed | 19:39 |
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| portante | I am not sure what to do about this personally | 19:39 |
| notmyname | last-modified with "13" gives an error? | 19:40 |
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| notmyname | err...if-unmodified-since | 19:40 |
| torgomatic | well, if you only get second-level resolution with HTTP, we have to treat all same-second updates as identical | 19:40 |
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| torgomatic | so, maybe round up to <second>.99999 ? | 19:40 |
| notmyname | torgomatic: or floor it | 19:40 |
| notmyname | portante: does the normalize timestamp method not account for this? | 19:41 |
| portante | it does not have anything to do with this | 19:41 |
| portante | the x-timestamp value comes from the object | 19:41 |
| portante | the format of the last-modified and if-[un]modified-since headers is http-data format (verbose human readable time string) | 19:42 |
| notmyname | normalize what comes in on the request. is the question to count it as .99999 or .0? | 19:42 |
| briancline | flooring seems best | 19:42 |
| portante | I think we have to ceiling x-timestmap value when returning last-modified, and then do the same when generating datetime objects when comparing the if-* headers | 19:43 |
| lincolnt | Could we define a meta HTTP header to hold the microseconds so clients can provide it? | 19:43 |
| portante | lincolnt: that is an option, but clients would have to change | 19:43 |
| gholt | lincolnt: You could, but that doesn't help with all the existing http-based stuff out there. | 19:43 |
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| portante | and we tried changing the http-data format to add the trailing microseconds and some proxies just strip it and reformat the date without it | 19:44 |
| lincolnt | right, what youre saying about flooring etc would still have to happen, but allows clients to add it in the future | 19:44 |
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| briancline | if you're performing that in both places, why would it matter whether to floor or ceil it? | 19:45 |
| zaitcev | If I understood right, the problem is 412. Just make sure it doesn't happen and return the object. | 19:45 |
| portante | yes, if a request had an x-swift-if-[un]modified-since header, we could accept that full format | 19:45 |
| notmyname | we return x-timestamp, so if you floor the last-modified value, you satisfy the rfc and give the user the chance to get more accurate | 19:45 |
| portante | we don't return the x-timestamp value as is | 19:45 |
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| portante | that header I don't think is allowed in responses by default, though I could be wrong | 19:46 |
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| notmyname | hmm | 19:46 |
| portante | the last-modified header is represented by the last_modified property on a Response object, which is a _datetime_property() object | 19:46 |
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| portante | that object converts to the string our x-timestamp float value, dropping the microseconds on the flow | 19:46 |
| portante | floor | 19:47 |
| notmyname | ok | 19:47 |
| zaitcev | Do "swift stat" and get X-Timestamp: 1368649471.47379 | 19:47 |
| zaitcev | It started happening a while ago. Before 1.4 | 19:48 |
| portante | so we could change last-modified to ceiling and then change the if-[un]modified-since code to ceiling | 19:48 |
| zaitcev | At the time I found it annoying that it leaked. | 19:48 |
| torgomatic | I mean, fundamentally the problem is: if an object has Last-Modified: Blah, and I make a GET with If-Unmodified-Since: Blah, I want a 304 Not Modified response. Right? | 19:48 |
| torgomatic | or am I misunderstanding things? | 19:48 |
| portante | but then we have to document that there is a possibility of missing sub-second updates | 19:48 |
| portante | yes | 19:48 |
| portante | torgomatic | 19:48 |
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| portante | zaitcev: not sure we want to rely on that "leak" | 19:49 |
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| peluse | not I sure I follow the "leak" comment | 19:49 |
| notmyname | is -since inclusive or exclusive? | 19:49 |
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| portante | peluse: I believe zaitcev is saying that we did not return an x-timestamp header in responses before 1.4 | 19:50 |
| peluse | ahh | 19:50 |
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| zaitcev | yes | 19:50 |
| gholt | Quick test that shows the python libs floor: https://gist.github.com/gholt/6963bffe5a20cbded451 | 19:50 |
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| notmyname | portante: does that ^ give you anything? | 19:52 |
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| portante | sec | 19:52 |
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| notmyname | should we punt this to #openstack-swift in the interest of time? | 19:53 |
| portante | sure | 19:53 |
| notmyname | #topic open discussion | 19:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:53 | |
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| notmyname | anything else? if not, let's figure out the timestamp stuff | 19:53 |
| portante | acoles 's work | 19:53 |
| zaitcev | I meant to ask gholt to look out for "DB locked" failrues _in servers servince requests_. | 19:53 |
| notmyname | gholt: RAX is now testing basically at master, including ssync and early quorum | 19:54 |
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| zaitcev | like this https://bugs.launchpad.net/swift/+bug/1224253 | 19:54 |
| zaitcev | Apparently it started happening in Havana. No clue why or if it really is the case | 19:54 |
| portante | notmyname: there has been some discussion about pipelines and adding a manditory header stripper at the left of the pipeline | 19:54 |
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| notmyname | portante: ya. alpha_ori has a patch to do nifty things to the pipeline | 19:55 |
| portante | yes, he does it only for config dir environments | 19:55 |
| notmyname | swifterdarrell skewered it, and alpha_ori will be back in the office late this week or next week | 19:55 |
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| zaitcev | I see "DB locked" in auditors often but whatever, that may be ok unless it prevents repair. | 19:55 |
| portante | so I am looking at how to do that in general | 19:55 |
| notmyname | portante: use config dirs! ;-) | 19:55 |
| notmyname | acoles: did you have something? | 19:56 |
| portante | notmyname: sure! | 19:56 |
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| notmyname | ok, I don't think acoles is here | 19:58 |
| notmyname | thanks everyone for attending | 19:58 |
| notmyname | see you in two weeks | 19:58 |
| portante | thanks | 19:58 |
| notmyname | #endmeeting | 19:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:58 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Nov 13 19:58:43 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:58 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/swift/2013/swift.2013-11-13-19.01.html | 19:58 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/swift/2013/swift.2013-11-13-19.01.txt | 19:58 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/swift/2013/swift.2013-11-13-19.01.log.html | 19:58 |
| gholt | The only dblocks I recall seeing here are because a user is doing really fast puts, sometimes to the same durn object. Eventually it clears. | 19:58 |
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| notmyname | gholt: zaitcev: that's what async pendings are for, right? | 19:59 |
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| gholt | Yeppers | 19:59 |
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| portante | over to #openstack-swift perhaps? | 19:59 |
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| zaitcev | okay. So without knowing who's holding hte lock we can't tell. | 19:59 |
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| stevebaker | #startmeeting heat | 20:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Nov 13 20:00:28 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is stevebaker. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:00 | |
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| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'heat' | 20:00 |
| stevebaker | #topic rollcall | 20:00 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "rollcall (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:00 | |
| randallburt | hola | 20:00 |
| andrew_plunk | heeey | 20:00 |
| stevebaker | booyaa | 20:00 |
| mspreitz | here | 20:00 |
| jpeeler | hi | 20:00 |
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| tims | o/ | 20:01 |
| asalkeld | o/ | 20:01 |
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| sdake | o/ | 20:01 |
| spzala | Hi | 20:01 |
| skraynev_ | o/ | 20:01 |
| andersonvom | o/ | 20:01 |
| shardy | o/ | 20:01 |
| zaneb | evening | 20:01 |
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| arbylee | hello | 20:01 |
| adrian_otto | hi | 20:01 |
| stevebaker | hope you've all recovered | 20:02 |
| stevebaker | no actions last meeting, so | 20:02 |
| zaneb | not even close | 20:02 |
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| randallburt | mostly. more lagged coming back than I was going over. | 20:02 |
| tspatzier_ | hi | 20:02 |
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| stevebaker | #topic Adding items to the agenda | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Adding items to the agenda (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:02 | |
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| stevebaker | Anything to add, so it doesn't get lost in the rolling-scrum of Open Discussion? | 20:02 |
| stevebaker | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/HeatAgenda | 20:03 |
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| adrian_otto | do you want to do any ODS retrospective? | 20:03 |
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| stevebaker | post it here and I will add it | 20:03 |
| shardy | adrian_otto: I put an item on the agenda for that | 20:03 |
| stevebaker | adrian_otto: we have Summit review, BPs/actions and prioritization | 20:03 |
| randallburt | adrian_otto: I think that's already on the agenda | 20:03 |
| shardy | Summit review, BPs/actions and prioritization | 20:03 |
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| adrian_otto | I see, tx. | 20:04 |
| asalkeld | do we want to talk about mistral? | 20:04 |
| sdake | Change scope of Orchestration program to "OpenStack Control Program" | 20:04 |
| stevebaker | sure | 20:04 |
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| sdake | can probably cover that there | 20:04 |
| randallburt | is there much to talk about at this point? I thought its mostly design/planning stages | 20:04 |
| stevebaker | #topic Icehouse API policy (keep adding stuff, or freeze v1 + version bump for new stuff?) | 20:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Icehouse API policy (keep adding stuff, or freeze v1 + version bump for new stuff?) (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:04 | |
| shardy | So I added this | 20:05 |
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| sdake | i'm not a big fan of rolling new features into an existing api | 20:05 |
| shardy | Wanted to discuss our policy on API additions, and also the possiblity of a new version without the tenant in the path | 20:05 |
| sdake | so i'd suggest freeze | 20:05 |
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| shardy | sdake: I'm tending to agree with you, but we're already seeing patches adding stuff to the existing API | 20:06 |
| asalkeld | what's wrong with new features in a version? | 20:06 |
| randallburt | +1 for revving the api to remove the tenant so we can have sane management -type calls in Icehouse | 20:06 |
| stevebaker | currently we're not planning on any breaking changes, just additions. This suggests v1_1 | 20:06 |
| shardy | so we need core to agree the review policy | 20:06 |
| asalkeld | -1 (until I get a reason) | 20:06 |
| shardy | randallburt: That is where I'm headed :) | 20:06 |
| zaneb | yeah, I think additions should go in v1_1 | 20:06 |
| sdake | wfm | 20:06 |
| asalkeld | obviously changing an api is really bad | 20:06 |
| mspreitz | what's wrong with additions in v1? | 20:06 |
| asalkeld | but adding a standalone new thing? | 20:07 |
| zaneb | -0 on removing the tenant thing, I am unconvinced by the arguments in favor | 20:07 |
| shardy | zaneb: and the removing tenants should be a major bump or also in v1_1? | 20:07 |
| stevebaker | however, "Build information API endpoint" is something deployers might want to turn off, which implies we need extensions if we do that | 20:07 |
| sdake | mspreitz some people will end up with v1 without additions, some people will end up with v1 wit hadditions | 20:07 |
| sdake | how are they to know which additions to use without versioning? | 20:07 |
| randallburt | the current url scheme is sub-optimal for the managment/monitoring type stuff we want to pull from the api. that's by def a contract breaking change. | 20:07 |
| mspreitz | I thought the API already has a way to query for extensions | 20:07 |
| zaneb | shardy: if we did it... dunno, in theory it's manageable by just changing the endpoint? | 20:07 |
| asalkeld | sdake not the job of the api for that | 20:07 |
| shardy | zaneb: How do you do a request which e.g lists multiple tenants stacks if the path impicitly scopes the request? | 20:07 |
| andrew_plunk | new endpoints could potentially break old endpoints, which is why a new version would be safer | 20:08 |
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| zaneb | shardy: /global/stacks ? | 20:08 |
| shardy | zaneb: I'd like the request scope to be purely based on context, not path | 20:08 |
| zaneb | why? | 20:08 |
| shardy | zaneb: Maybe that would work, seems less clean than GET /stacks | 20:08 |
| zaneb | true | 20:09 |
| shardy | and the scope is decided by the roles in the request context | 20:09 |
| shardy | roles/projects/domains | 20:09 |
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| zaneb | actually, there's nothing stopping us from adding that alongside the tenant-scoped stuff, since it's just for the management api | 20:09 |
| andersonvom | the tenant in the url shouldn't be trusted anyway, so it makes little sense to me that it is there in the first place | 20:09 |
| randallburt | andersonvom: agreed | 20:09 |
| shardy | andersonvom: agree | 20:09 |
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| sdake | agree | 20:10 |
| zaneb | "I'd like the request scope to be purely based on context, not path" <- this is the opposite of why HTTP was invented | 20:10 |
| stevebaker | GET /stacks?scope=global <- ? | 20:10 |
| asalkeld | this needs to be inline with other openstack api | 20:10 |
| randallburt | perhaps we need to discuss this with nova et al? | 20:10 |
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| shardy | zaneb: well we're implicitly tied to scoping the data we return based on the RBAC profile provided by keystone token validation | 20:10 |
| shardy | so why encode a subset of the stuff in the path? | 20:11 |
| stevebaker | they have different paths for admin actions | 20:11 |
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| shardy | The *heat specific* stuff should be encoded in the path IMHO | 20:11 |
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| randallburt | stevebaker: IIRC everyone wants to move away from that tho | 20:11 |
| shardy | not characteristics of the user making the request | 20:11 |
| stevebaker | so we're supposed to be talking about API versioning, not designing v2 ;) | 20:12 |
| shardy | stevebaker: the keystone devs said "don't do that" re admin specific endpoints | 20:12 |
| randallburt | stevebaker: fair point ;) | 20:12 |
| shardy | has caused them pain apparently | 20:12 |
| stevebaker | can we get back on topic for a bit? | 20:12 |
| shardy | stevebaker: sure, I'll follow up with ML/wiki discussion | 20:12 |
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| stevebaker | we're going to have minor additions within the scope of a v1_1 *or* extensions | 20:13 |
| asalkeld | if every time we add a feature we put it in a new version, we'll have v100 soon | 20:13 |
| randallburt | stevebaker: agreed, but I think it matters as to *why* we'd rev the api. is the question if we *should* in Icehouse? | 20:13 |
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| stevebaker | asalkeld: we have v1_1 for the duration of icehouse | 20:13 |
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| shardy | It could be argued that just adding stuff is OK | 20:13 |
| asalkeld | since when is the version related to the cycle? | 20:13 |
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| shardy | and that a bump is only required when existing interfaces change | 20:14 |
| randallburt | I think just adding stuff doesn't require a contract revision, as long as all the old calls work | 20:14 |
| asalkeld | we have continuous deployers | 20:14 |
| stevebaker | shardy: how do API consumers know if the API they are calling has the feature they need? | 20:14 |
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| shardy | stevebaker: That is a good point, but it's not specific to Heat | 20:15 |
| asalkeld | stevebaker, you publish features/capabilties | 20:15 |
| sdake | they know via the version #:) | 20:15 |
| randallburt | via the version number. | 20:15 |
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| stevebaker | asalkeld: like an extensions introspection call? | 20:15 |
| shardy | well Neutron for example have been adding stuff throughout Havana, haven't they? | 20:15 |
| asalkeld | yeah, just not extensions | 20:15 |
| randallburt | adding stuff without breaking old stuff doesn't need a new version, though. extensions are different and should be versioned independently IMO. | 20:15 |
| asalkeld | +1 | 20:16 |
| stevebaker | asalkeld: why not extensions? | 20:16 |
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| asalkeld | well we are not talking about 3rd party extensions | 20:16 |
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| zbitter | stevebaker: alternate answer: suck it and see | 20:16 |
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| asalkeld | how do users figure out the features | 20:16 |
| randallburt | stevebaker: I think its a slippery slope of compatibility hell. We see it in nova/cloud servers. | 20:16 |
| shardy | zaneb: discovery via 404 ;) | 20:16 |
| randallburt | lol | 20:17 |
| mspreitz | What about changes in the HOT language? | 20:17 |
| mspreitz | not changes in the API signature | 20:17 |
| asalkeld | that's template versioning | 20:17 |
| randallburt | mspreitz: define "changes" | 20:17 |
| stevebaker | mspreitz: different topic | 20:17 |
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| mspreitz | OK | 20:17 |
| shardy | mspreitz: that is a separate discussion, it's encoded in the template format | 20:17 |
| mspreitz | So I'm looking forward to the answer to the question about why extensions are different | 20:18 |
| stevebaker | so could a v1.1 rev remain with a /v1/ path or would we have to make it /v1_1/? | 20:18 |
| asalkeld | stevebaker, not sure | 20:18 |
| randallburt | we'd have to have a /v1.1/ path IMO | 20:18 |
| shardy | stevebaker: surely the paths have to differ? | 20:19 |
| zaneb | stevebaker: you're supposed to respond to both I believe | 20:19 |
| asalkeld | but the version is discoverable (not sure why features can't be) | 20:19 |
| zaneb | stevebaker: but luckily there's some middleware that handles it all for you | 20:19 |
| zaneb | or something | 20:19 |
| asalkeld | seems like abusing the version IMO | 20:19 |
| randallburt | the version middleware should sort it so that a call to the root of the service shows you what versions are available and what paths they have. | 20:19 |
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| asalkeld | so 20min in | 20:20 |
| zaneb | yep | 20:20 |
| shardy | Maybe we should move this discussion to the ML and document a policy on API revisions for next week | 20:20 |
| stevebaker | indeed | 20:20 |
| randallburt | I believe the keystone catalog supports different versions as well | 20:20 |
| randallburt | agreed | 20:20 |
| asalkeld | +1 | 20:20 |
| stevebaker | I'll do this next, because it is related | 20:21 |
| stevebaker | #topic Build information API endpoint (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/55434/) | 20:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Build information API endpoint (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/55434/) (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:21 | |
| shardy | So I'm still not sure what actual value this provides | 20:21 |
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| sdake | seems like questionable value with potential for abuse | 20:21 |
| shardy | other than providing a shortcut which avoids folks querying their CM tools managing Heat | 20:21 |
| stevebaker | I would find it useful, as long as the call was at least authenticated | 20:21 |
| randallburt | easily identify what version of heat is deployed even if you don't have access to the infra its running on | 20:21 |
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| randallburt | I believe the latest patch makes it optional as well as authenticated. | 20:22 |
| shardy | randallburt: Why do you care, unless you're the deployer or an attacker? | 20:22 |
| randallburt | or someone submitting a bug report | 20:22 |
| shardy | If you're the deployer, you have the info already, via some means | 20:22 |
| sdake | ya, the features are exported via the versioning of the api :) | 20:22 |
| stevebaker | I'd like template_guide to document what version resources and their properties were added (or deprecated) | 20:22 |
| randallburt | or a support technician | 20:22 |
| randallburt | that doesn't have access to the infra | 20:23 |
| sdake | stevebaker: in that case, the template would fail to validate with an invalid prop | 20:23 |
| sdake | or invalid versioning of the template | 20:23 |
| randallburt | stevebaker: that's a different bp, though | 20:23 |
| zaneb | you know, apache used to report it's version number in error pages and stuff | 20:23 |
| shardy | randallburt: I'm not saying don't provide the info, I'm saying, why does heat have to provide it? | 20:23 |
| stevebaker | the published version should not be too fine-grained - and deployers would often carry their own patches too | 20:23 |
| randallburt | and a little off topic ;) | 20:23 |
| zaneb | and now they don't do that because people use that info to hack it | 20:23 |
| kebray | shardy customers care. | 20:23 |
| kebray | they consume the API. | 20:23 |
| stevebaker | randallburt: my point is that the version becomes an interesting piece of information that a user will want to know | 20:23 |
| kebray | Support employees care, as we put out a new build, they would like to track that. they don't have access to the infrastructure, only the API. | 20:24 |
| shardy | kebray: Ok, so what version do you report, if you have a deployement scaled out running multiple versions of things? | 20:24 |
| sdake | keybray in this case, the version of the api changes | 20:24 |
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| randallburt | stevebaker: agreed. but that sort of supports having it. As a service provider, the information is useful | 20:24 |
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| randallburt | shardy: each version of the service would report independently | 20:25 |
| arbylee | sdake: the api doesn't necessarily change if you push out deploys with different configuration options | 20:25 |
| stevebaker | shardy: the version should be from whatever engine responded to the version rpc call | 20:25 |
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| kebray | shardy, that's the implementer to decide. e.g. at Rackspace, we might manually bump a version number in a file. Others may automate the version from a CI tool. If we return it as a string, it can have whatever info we want. | 20:25 |
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| andersonvom | shardy: if you have multiple versions, that would be a useful case to actually find out that different info is being reported. | 20:25 |
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| sdake | perhaps a different approach is a config option, rather then the git sha | 20:25 |
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| sdake | to handle arblyee's case | 20:26 |
| mspreitz | OpenStack is not monolithic, so the version is not monolithic | 20:26 |
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| asalkeld | I think it's ok if the deployer wants it | 20:26 |
| randallburt | sdake: that would also be acceptable; that way the deployer can define what it meands | 20:26 |
| kebray | sdake agreed, I don't want a git sha. This number needs to be understandable by humans, and for our setup, we may choose to have it be an incrementing number. | 20:26 |
| sdake | ok well that approach wfm :) | 20:26 |
| randallburt | s/meads/means/ | 20:26 |
| zaneb | what mspreitz said. I don't see how this can be useful | 20:26 |
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| stevebaker | asalkeld: how do deployers turn it off if it is not an extension? maybe a config option. | 20:27 |
| shardy | andersonvom: but what version do you report, the API you hit, the engine which processes the request, both, versions of the platform it's all running on etc etc? | 20:27 |
| asalkeld | yeah, config option | 20:27 |
| randallburt | shardy: yes. when would they be different? | 20:27 |
| kebray | zaneb it's useful for us. I promise. API users need to know when our code has changed, even if nothing about the contract has changed. | 20:27 |
| zaneb | kebray: if you as a cloud operator don't know what version of Heat you've rolled out, we really can't help you | 20:27 |
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| lifeless | zaneb: wait, what? | 20:27 |
| * sdake giggles at zaneb | 20:27 | |
| kebray | zaneb I know what version.. the other 4000 employees don't know. I want an API call that allows them to get it. | 20:27 |
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| stevebaker | alright, lets move this to the review/ml | 20:28 |
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| randallburt | ok. | 20:28 |
| shardy | randallburt: you could be running slightly different versions of heat during a live upgrade couldn't you? | 20:28 |
| lifeless | zaneb: I think you need to take some anti-troll pills or something :) | 20:28 |
| lifeless | shardy: I would totally expect that. | 20:28 |
| stevebaker | #topic Summit review, BPs/actions and prioritization | 20:28 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Summit review, BPs/actions and prioritization (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:28 | |
| * sdake for once agrees with lifeless | 20:28 | |
| shardy | randallburt: assume you plan to chase trunk or do rolling updates of some sort | 20:28 |
| randallburt | shardy: fair point, but that's a very small windo | 20:28 |
| randallburt | window | 20:28 |
| lifeless | depends on the cloud size | 20:28 |
| lifeless | and update frequency | 20:29 |
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| randallburt | new topic, lets move on | 20:29 |
| lifeless | versions are useful, they can get captured in logs for automated post mortems - fin. | 20:29 |
| shardy | randallburt: but it's that window when things are most likely to break | 20:29 |
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| stevebaker | I need to triage the blueprint list, but here is where we are at https://launchpad.net/heat/+milestone/icehouse-1 | 20:29 |
| shardy | lifeless: +1, capture in logs, return in error message to (authenticated) users | 20:29 |
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| stevebaker | any general thoughts on summit? | 20:30 |
| asalkeld | too many | 20:30 |
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| randallburt | indeed. | 20:31 |
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| sdake | maybe best to let them filter out into the implementation over the next 6 mo | 20:31 |
| asalkeld | we need to go through the etherpads | 20:31 |
| asalkeld | and make blueprint / fill in current ones | 20:31 |
| stevebaker | I'm a little worried that options for software config have expanded, not reduced. But I still think that arguments need to be augmented with actual code from this point | 20:32 |
| randallburt | stevebaker: +9001 | 20:32 |
| shardy | stevebaker: do we have an umbrella BP showing the dependent BPs for software-config to happen? | 20:32 |
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| stevebaker | shardy: I think the blueprints need to be completely rejigged to reflect our refined understanding | 20:33 |
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| asalkeld | yeah, time consuming stuff | 20:33 |
| stevebaker | #action stevebaker re-organise software config blueprints | 20:33 |
| randallburt | heavy is the head... | 20:33 |
| shardy | stevebaker: Ok, cool, just wondered if we've started a task breakdown for that in particular, since it seems the biggest chunk of work | 20:33 |
| shardy | stevebaker: I'll raise some and do a wiki related to the request scoping, trusts, admin, in-instance auth related stuff | 20:34 |
| stevebaker | shardy: | 20:34 |
| stevebaker | shardy: thanks | 20:34 |
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| asalkeld | stevebaker, I can help with bp pruning too | 20:35 |
| shardy | What are the other big items, autoscaling, ...? | 20:35 |
| tspatzier | stevebaker, for software config which is the master BP? is it hot-software-config? | 20:35 |
| mspreitz | I'm still not clear on how the software config stuff will bootstrap | 20:35 |
| shardy | stevebaker: Yeah, get volunteers to help get things into shape or you'll go insane clicking in launchpad :) | 20:35 |
| stevebaker | so as per normal, people should be writing their own blueprints, and setting the Milestone Target based on what they think is achievable | 20:35 |
| shardy | stevebaker: My concern was taking the big items, breaking them up and getting folks commited to working on the bits | 20:36 |
| asalkeld | shardy, there was "stack <action> stop_on_error" | 20:36 |
| asalkeld | that enabled debugging, and retry | 20:37 |
| stevebaker | and you don't *need* something to be approved to work on it, but you carry the risk of being smacked with a banhammer at the end of the process | 20:37 |
| randallburt | we also should consider some of the incoming requirements from trove and savannah | 20:37 |
| stevebaker | randallburt: they know to raise blueprints | 20:37 |
| randallburt | if sdake will ever let me use the banhammer… :P | 20:37 |
| asalkeld | randallburt, yeah we probably need a way of prioritizing those features | 20:38 |
| randallburt | stevebaker: k. I'll ping hub_cap next week when I'm in SFO | 20:38 |
| stevebaker | shardy: I think all the big items have owners who can handle that, apart from software config | 20:38 |
| stevebaker | shardy: are there others you are aware of that need breaking down and delegating? | 20:38 |
| shardy | stevebaker: Ok, cool, as long as you're happy that's the case and know who they are :) | 20:38 |
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| stevebaker | radix, randallburt, autoscaling is big, let us know if help is needed | 20:39 |
| hub_cap | hi lo randallburt ill be around | 20:39 |
| sdake | yes we need to get rolling on autoscaling | 20:40 |
| shardy | stevebaker: No, we just discussed a lot last week so wanted to make sure we had owners for all the major items | 20:40 |
| stevebaker | #action stevebaker to go through summit etherpads and make sure all blueprints are raised https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Summit/Icehouse/Etherpads#Heat | 20:40 |
| asalkeld | maybe we can blog about summit? | 20:40 |
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| asalkeld | to clarify ideas | 20:40 |
| randallburt | stevebaker: will do | 20:40 |
| stevebaker | moving on? | 20:40 |
| asalkeld | yeah | 20:41 |
| randallburt | yup | 20:41 |
| stevebaker | #topic Change scope of Orchestration program to "OpenStack Control Program" | 20:41 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Change scope of Orchestration program to "OpenStack Control Program" (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:41 | |
| randallburt | here there be dragons. | 20:41 |
| zaneb | where did this come from? | 20:41 |
| sdake | this was mostly SpamapS idea, but since he isn't here, I'll suggest it | 20:41 |
| sdake | yes dragons indeed :) | 20:41 |
| mspreitz | do tell, why is this a good idea? | 20:41 |
| shardy | Why? | 20:41 |
| stevebaker | my opinion: Orchestration already means all things to all people, so we just need to redefine what *we* mean by "Orchestration" ;) | 20:41 |
| sdake | his argument was mostly of the line that "we are doing autoscaling in heat, and we do orchestration" | 20:41 |
| zaneb | stevebaker ++ | 20:41 |
| randallburt | stevebaker: +1. Let solum be the new dumping ground | 20:42 |
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| asalkeld | SpamapS, also was aiming at mistral I think | 20:42 |
| sdake | and there are other projects coming online such as qonos and mistral | 20:42 |
| sdake | i think his basic idea was to expand our scope to cover all the things ;) | 20:42 |
| stevebaker | asalkeld: so you think Mistral should be brought into our programme? | 20:42 |
| mspreitz | and "control program" is clearer? | 20:42 |
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| asalkeld | stevebaker, if we are going to use it for our core flow control | 20:43 |
| asalkeld | it would be nice | 20:43 |
| sdake | mistral controls workflow | 20:43 |
| sdake | autoscaling api controls autoscale | 20:43 |
| randallburt | wasn't the longer term goal to move autoscale *out* of heat, though? | 20:43 |
| sdake | heat controls the rest of the stack | 20:43 |
| sdake | they are all related, in some nebulous way | 20:43 |
| asalkeld | I am not sure on this move | 20:43 |
| stevebaker | randallburt: autoscaling will still be in the orchestration program though | 20:43 |
| kebray | we orchestrate autoscaling. autoscale doesn't necessarily have to be in orchestration. | 20:44 |
| sdake | one problem it would solve is "how to depend on mistral in an integrated program" like heat | 20:44 |
| randallburt | stevebaker: fair point | 20:44 |
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| stevebaker | #topic Mistral | 20:44 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Mistral (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:44 | |
| zaneb | autoscaling is going to be deeply connected to orchestration, they way we are planning to implement it | 20:44 |
| asalkeld | I don't want us to look like we are trying to take over openstack projects | 20:44 |
| asalkeld | but if those projects are keen, I have no problem | 20:45 |
| stevebaker | asalkeld: if they belong in orchestration we should make the case, like tusker merging with tripleo | 20:45 |
| kebray | I'm not convinced Mistral as a solid non-changing clear mission yet. So, shouldn't spin too many brain cycles on it just yet IMO. | 20:45 |
| randallburt | I don't want us to be a shortcut to integrated status though | 20:45 |
| shardy | stevebaker: +1, but we shouldn't redefine our scope to include totally non-orchestration related projects | 20:45 |
| stevebaker | no that wouldn't be the intent | 20:45 |
| asalkeld | I think we can defer this for a while | 20:45 |
| sdake | clearly we don't want to present an opportunity to game the system | 20:45 |
| stevebaker | shardy: agreed | 20:45 |
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| sdake | but mistral is related in some way i can't put my finger on to what heat does :) | 20:46 |
| stevebaker | asalkeld: anything technical about Mistral you can present yet? | 20:46 |
| zaneb | randallburt: in theory new projects have to be incubated, even if part of established programs | 20:46 |
| asalkeld | so it's in design | 20:46 |
| randallburt | zaneb: k | 20:46 |
| stevebaker | asalkeld: do you want to participate in that, so heat | 20:47 |
| asalkeld | we would need to build it (not head devs) | 20:47 |
| stevebaker | 's needs are represented | 20:47 |
| asalkeld | sure | 20:47 |
| asalkeld | I can make sure we get what we need | 20:47 |
| asalkeld | not sure of the time line tho' | 20:47 |
| stevebaker | #topic Open discussion | 20:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:47 | |
| sdake | they ahave a roadmap | 20:47 |
| asalkeld | long and winding road<map> | 20:48 |
| tims | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/heat/+spec/namespace-stack-metadata | 20:48 |
| randallburt | so, does this latest resolution change our status in any way other than calling ourselve's Openstack Orchestration (™)? | 20:48 |
| tims | looking for feedback on namespacing stack-metadata | 20:48 |
| sdake | well to do such a change, would require tc approval | 20:48 |
| sdake | which would require board approval | 20:48 |
| sdake | which means steve baker would have to sell it | 20:48 |
| stevebaker | tims: is this for horizion presentation hints? | 20:48 |
| sdake | and I assume we would all have to stand together to agree with the apporach | 20:48 |
| tims | stevebaker: yes | 20:48 |
| kebray | For those interested https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/MistralRoadmap | 20:49 |
| tims | as well as other things | 20:49 |
| stevebaker | lets not call it metadata, please! ;) | 20:49 |
| zaneb | randallburt: not at all | 20:49 |
| randallburt | stevebaker: lol | 20:49 |
| randallburt | zaneb: k | 20:49 |
| tims | I'm not attached to the name :) | 20:49 |
| tims | just a place where we can safely put things that Heat should ignore in the template | 20:49 |
| shardy | Yeah metadata is already thrice overloaded | 20:49 |
| kebray | stevebaker extra data? | 20:49 |
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| shardy | tims: Can it just be a comment block? | 20:50 |
| shardy | tims: or do you need it parsed and available via the API? | 20:50 |
| stevebaker | tims: so maybe a top-level template section which is ignored by heat engine | 20:50 |
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| randallburt | shardy: oh the looks tims gave me when I suggested that. | 20:50 |
| stevebaker | shardy: it needs to be structured, for things outside heat to parse | 20:50 |
| tims | haha randallburt | 20:50 |
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| shardy | OK | 20:50 |
| randallburt | besides, comments are lost when safeloaded | 20:50 |
| tims | yeah it should be a top level section | 20:51 |
| kebray | metadata is supposed to be overloaded... it means data about other data. It applies everywhere. | 20:51 |
| asalkeld | stack level Metadata? | 20:51 |
| stevebaker | imagine a visual template authoring tool, x,y coordinates of where resources are dragged need to be stored somewhere | 20:51 |
| asalkeld | to be inline with resource Metadata | 20:51 |
| kebray | ok, cube conversations just convinced me. Just call it data :-) | 20:51 |
| randallburt | in the context of Horizon, its actual data though | 20:51 |
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| shardy | kebray: but the template terminology should be distinct, because we already have metadata blocks which actually do stuff | 20:51 |
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| zaneb | kebray: if we had 50 sections called 'data', I would complain about that too ;) | 20:52 |
| stevebaker | asalkeld: there is no resource metadata in HOT (not exposed anyway) | 20:52 |
| asalkeld | stevebaker, cool:) | 20:52 |
| tims | soo stack-metadata then? | 20:53 |
| kebray | zaneb what should we call it? | 20:53 |
| shardy | stevebaker: Are you sure? We have a Metadata block in CFN templates? | 20:53 |
| stevebaker | tims: so, I think the answer is yes, but we need to bikeshed the name. I think I'd prefer something top-level rather than sprinkling data throughout the template | 20:53 |
| tims | stevebaker: agreed | 20:53 |
| randallburt | stevebaker: agreed | 20:53 |
| kebray | stevebaker agreed | 20:53 |
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| asalkeld | sounds ok | 20:54 |
| stevebaker | omg, we agreed on something! | 20:54 |
| asalkeld | :-O | 20:54 |
| stevebaker | 6 minute4s | 20:54 |
| tims | :) | 20:54 |
| shardy | https://github.com/openstack/heat-templates/blob/master/hot/F18/WordPress_NoKey.yaml#L93 | 20:54 |
| randallburt | tims is a consensus builder | 20:54 |
| shardy | stevebaker: ^^ | 20:54 |
| zaneb | kebray: sorry, that was supposed to be a reply to the earlier comment about 'metadata' being intentionally overloaded | 20:55 |
| * kebray says no worries zaneb | 20:55 | |
| stevebaker | shardy: HOT doesn't explicitly ban Metadata yet, but it is not part of the spec and there is no alternative until some bare-bones software config is implemented | 20:55 |
| radix | oh no | 20:55 |
| radix | *shakefist* time zoooooones! :( | 20:56 |
| randallburt | radix: time change getcha didn't it | 20:56 |
| radix | yes :( | 20:56 |
| stevebaker | DST can die in a fire | 20:56 |
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| sdake | move to arizona - we roll on UTC :) | 20:56 |
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| radix | so, I'm prepping a proposed api spec (actually I started it a long time ago but never published it) for autoscaling | 20:57 |
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| radix | I'll post it to the list when I've put it up for comment | 20:57 |
| zaneb | capital | 20:57 |
| stevebaker | lets mosey in a relaxed fashion back to #heat and have a friendly conversation | 20:58 |
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| stevebaker | #endmeeting | 20:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:58 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Nov 13 20:58:33 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:58 |
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| radix | okie | 20:58 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/heat/2013/heat.2013-11-13-20.00.html | 20:58 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/heat/2013/heat.2013-11-13-20.00.txt | 20:58 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/heat/2013/heat.2013-11-13-20.00.log.html | 20:58 |
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| stevebaker | thanks all | 20:58 |
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