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| chmouel | mordred: you are on EU timezone, right? | 08:20 |
|---|---|---|
| chmouel | mordred: was it you or joe who was telling me that you were going to come to europython? | 08:20 |
| chmouel | jog0: ^ | 08:21 |
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| n0ano | #startmeeting scheduler | 14:59 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 4 14:59:58 2013 UTC. The chair is n0ano. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:59 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: scheduler)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'scheduler' | 15:00 |
| n0ano | show of hands, anyone here for the scheduler meeting? | 15:00 |
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| belmoreira | here | 15:01 |
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| jgallard | hi! | 15:01 |
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| n0ano | hmmm, thin turnout so far, we should make all our major decisions today and force them through :-) | 15:02 |
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| senhuang | hello~ | 15:03 |
| belmoreira | :) | 15:03 |
| n0ano | BTW, my new tip for the day, when moving into a new house, don't plug your computers into a switched outlet, the total silence when you swith it off is very disconcerting :-) | 15:03 |
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| n0ano | Well, let's get started... | 15:04 |
| * glikson here | 15:04 | |
| n0ano | #topic host directory service | 15:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "host directory service (Meeting topic: scheduler)" | 15:04 | |
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| n0ano | Does anyone here know enough about this to talk about it, I don't | 15:05 |
| PhiLDay | sorry - missed the subjet ? | 15:05 |
| n0ano | host directory service | 15:05 |
| n0ano | the issue came up at the Havana summit but there's no BP and I don't really know what it is | 15:06 |
| PhiLDay | Don't even remember it from the summit to be honest | 15:06 |
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| belmoreira | I'm not aware of that… can you explain? | 15:06 |
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| n0ano | it't there on the etherpad but that's about it, if no one is knowledgeable about it I'm just going to drop it from our list | 15:07 |
| senhuang | i believe it is something like polling the hosts for their capabilities? | 15:08 |
| senhuang | but i am not sure. | 15:08 |
| n0ano | if someone is really interested they can create a BP, until then I'd prefer to drop it. | 15:08 |
| PhiLDay | "Host directory service" which stores extended information about hosts and configuration for scheduler. It is located inside the environment and has authentication. (cooperative work of the Dell and Mirantis teams). | 15:08 |
| PhiLDay | Taken from teh Summet abstract | 15:09 |
| n0ano | PhiLDay, is there a BP for that? | 15:09 |
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| PhiLDay | Not that I know of | 15:09 |
| n0ano | Well, no BP and the people involved haven't attended this meeting yet so I'm not seeing that much interest in the subject. | 15:10 |
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| n0ano | Why don't we move on for now... | 15:10 |
| n0ano | #topic opens | 15:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "opens (Meeting topic: scheduler)" | 15:11 | |
| n0ano | I think I'd like to open things up, we've discussed all the issues from the Havanna summit, is there anything people want to go over in more detail for now? | 15:11 |
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| PhiLDay | Nothing burning for me - just need to free up some time to start work | 15:13 |
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| n0ano | I'm hearing a lot of silence (which is not necessarily bad) | 15:14 |
| belmoreira | I have a BP that probably is good to have a discussion on it | 15:14 |
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| belmoreira | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/schedule-set-availability-zones | 15:14 |
| belmoreira | but probably is good to do it in other meeting after people reading it | 15:15 |
| belmoreira | I can give you an overview if you are interested | 15:15 |
| PhiLDay | Just taking a quick look now. | 15:15 |
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| belmoreira | The idea is to define a list of default availability zones not only one like what you have now | 15:16 |
| n0ano | #topic set availability zones | 15:16 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "set availability zones (Meeting topic: scheduler)" | 15:16 | |
| PhiLDay | BTW we could also talk about the isolation filter change ? | 15:16 |
| belmoreira | if we do that it's needed to select the best one | 15:16 |
| senhuang | what do you mean by "the best" availability zone? | 15:17 |
| n0ano | belmoreira, so, if I read you, you are only addressing where availabilty zones are defined but none is specified in the schedule request | 15:18 |
| belmoreira | schedule the availability zone that has for example more free ram | 15:18 |
| glikson | belmoreira: how would this compare to cells? | 15:18 |
| senhuang | it seems to me "ram" is more like a property of node | 15:18 |
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| PhiLDay | The biggest issue I see is that in some configurations (like ours ;-) Instances and volumes have to be in the same AZ - so if you change the "default" az dynamically in Nova then it will cause issues for people expecting to work accross Nova and Cinder | 15:18 |
| glikson | there is ongoing work to add scheduling capabilities across cells.. | 15:18 |
| n0ano | senhuang, indeed, .5 G for each of 5 nodes is not the same as 2G on one node | 15:19 |
| belmoreira | what I would like to have is a set of default availability zones if the user don't define any on vm create | 15:19 |
| belmoreira | more or less like aws ec2 | 15:19 |
| senhuang | n0ano: yes. it also depends on the algorithm to calculate/aggregate the capabilities for nodes in a zone | 15:20 |
| PhiLDay | I think if your lookign for cross AZ or cross Cell criteria then it should be things like #instances, #running_creates | 15:20 |
| belmoreira | it can be random the selection (if you have a list of az) | 15:20 |
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| belmoreira | or it can use the scheduler for select the az | 15:20 |
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| jgallard | nice idea, but from my understanding, cells will do that, no? | 15:21 |
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| PhiLDay | but not everyone will deploy cells | 15:21 |
| belmoreira | in our setup we have az inside cells | 15:21 |
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| belmoreira | the scheduler is done inside a cell | 15:21 |
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| PhiLDay | I like the idea - just trying to think how to make it work consistently across Nova and Cinder | 15:22 |
| n0ano | I plead ignorance, what does the scheduler currently do in your situation | 15:22 |
| senhuang | when all the nodes within the configured set of az's run out of resources, what the scheduler will do | 15:23 |
| senhuang | PhiLDay: i think you can define the same defatul set of az's for both cinder and nova | 15:23 |
| * jgallard is thinking about the potential complexity of the scheduling : scheduling between host aggregates / scheduling between AZ / scheduling between cells | 15:24 | |
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| senhuang | jgllard: once the query-scheduler function is implemented, the scheduler will be only responsible for host/ selection. it might be not a big issue of complexity. | 15:25 |
| belmoreira | I will be more descriptive in the BP. And if we can discuss then in the next meeting will be great. | 15:25 |
| PhiLDay | Today you can set the same default AZ (single) for both Nova and Cinder - but with this BP you would get a list - and so an instance create and a volume create both without an AZ specified could end up in different AZs | 15:25 |
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| n0ano | belmoreira, NP, I'll add this to the agenda, looks like there are still some details that need to be sorted out | 15:26 |
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| senhuang | PhilDay: the right solution will be having a cross-project resource selection/scheduler | 15:27 |
| jgallard | senhuang, ok, maybe, I need to think a little bit more about it | 15:27 |
| belmoreira | PhiLDay: yes good point. In my setup we don't have cinder in different az. | 15:27 |
| jgallard | senhuang, +1 | 15:27 |
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| n0ano | OK, let's all think about this and discuss further next week | 15:28 |
| n0ano | #topic isolation filter | 15:28 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "isolation filter (Meeting topic: scheduler)" | 15:28 | |
| n0ano | PhiLDay, this is yours, right? | 15:28 |
| PhiLDay | You almost want it to be sticky for a user - i.e the first default AZ is random, but after that they always go to that one. If you coudl define teh defautk AZ per project in Keystome maybe | 15:28 |
| PhiLDay | It was a question really about a review that belmoreira has going through, that others have suggestes my be related to whole-host allcoation | 15:30 |
| PhiLDay | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/28635/ | 15:30 |
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| PhiLDay | The filter is similar to an existing filter - but there wasn't any consensus amongst the reviewers on whether to have 3 simple (but similar) filters or one configurable filter | 15:31 |
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| PhiLDay | Also whether he aggregate metadata used by the filters should be the same or different | 15:32 |
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| PhiLDay | IAs its scheduler related, and it seems to be a slow news day here I thought it might be worth getting opiions | 15:32 |
| belmoreira | Would be good to have other opinions | 15:32 |
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| n0ano | hmmm, I don't like the idea of 3 mostly the same filters (code duplication issues with things getting out of sync) but configuration can be a pain also, I think this is all in the implementation details | 15:32 |
| PhiLDay | I was leaning towards having 3 filters but aligning on metadata (As configuring which filter to use is the same as configuring a filter) | 15:33 |
| belmoreira | Having different filters is more clean and don't change any behavior from previous releases. | 15:34 |
| n0ano | PhiLDay, back to the code duplication concerns | 15:34 |
| n0ano | belmoreira, but making sure the default configuration matches the previous releases should solve that issue | 15:34 |
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| belmoreira | PhiLDay: the only problem that I see having the same metadata is if someone wants to use the filters simultaneously but with different behaviors. It will not be possible to configure in that case. | 15:35 |
| PhiLDay | Each filter is very short - and it is easier to see what it does as a spereate filter. But I think we shouldl make it easy for someone to switch between them without having to set up new metadata values ion their aggregates | 15:35 |
| n0ano | I think I'm talking myself into one configurable filter, but it's not a strong preference | 15:35 |
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| PhiLDay | belmoreira> I was lookign at teh filters as being in effect exclusive - do you think there is a valid use case for using them in combination ? | 15:36 |
| PhiLDay | AggregateMultiTenancyIsolation: Reserves hosts in specific aggregates only for use by selected projects (in effect limits other projects to the subset of the nodes not on those aggregates) - Controlled Projects can use specific aggregate and any other non-specific aggregate - Other Projects can use any non-specific aggregate ProjectsToAggregateFilter: Constrains projects to specific aggregates. - Co | 15:37 |
| PhiLDay | Ok - that didn't paste well ;-( | 15:37 |
| n0ano | PhiLDay, you noticed :-) | 15:37 |
| PhiLDay | AggregateMultiTenancyIsolation: Reserves hosts in specific aggregates only for use by selected projects (in effect limits other projects to the subset of the nodes not on those aggregates) | 15:37 |
| belmoreira | yes… I agree with you. I can't find a valid use case :) | 15:37 |
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| PhiLDay | ProjectsToAggregateFilter: Constrains projects to specific aggregates. (i.e mandatory isolation) | 15:38 |
| PhiLDay | and then for whole-host I want something more like AggregateMultiTenancyIsolation but with the user able to chose if tey want to go into a restrcited aggregate or not | 15:39 |
| belmoreira | but makes sense to change the metadata in AggregateMultiTenancyIsolation to be the same as ProjectsToAggregateFilter | 15:40 |
| belmoreira | and also give support to multiple projects in AggregateMultiTenancyIsolation | 15:41 |
| belmoreira | instead using the metadata key in AggregateMultiTenancyIsolation | 15:41 |
| belmoreira | ? | 15:41 |
| PhiLDay | I hadn't picked up that AggregateMultiTenancyIsolation was single tenant only ? I agree that would be cleaner - I guess it causes a compatibility issue though. | 15:42 |
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| belmoreira | yes… that's why at the end I moved to a different filter | 15:43 |
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| PhiLDay | The doc string says "If a host is in an aggregate that has the metadata key "filter_tenant_id" it can only create instances from that tenant(s)." | 15:44 |
| PhiLDay | isn't filter_tenant_id in fact a list of tenant IDs ? | 15:45 |
| belmoreira | no. It only supports one project. | 15:45 |
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| PhiLDay | if tenant_id not in metadata["filter_tenant_id"]: is treating the metdata value as a list no ? | 15:46 |
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| jgallard | URL : https://github.com/openstack/nova/blob/master/nova/scheduler/filters/aggregate_multitenancy_isolation.py#L43 | 15:49 |
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| belmoreira | yes… you get all filter_tenant_ids from that host | 15:52 |
| jog0 | I joined the meeting late, but was wondering if the floor will be open for a few minutes at the end? I have a general question | 15:52 |
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| n0ano | jog0, as long as it's quick, we're running out of time. | 15:53 |
| belmoreira | but you can only define one filter_tenant_id per aggregate | 15:53 |
| jog0 | So at the last summit BlueHost announced they have a 16k node openstack cluster | 15:54 |
| n0ano | belmoreira, PhiLDay are we winding down on this, maybe people should follow the review link and chime in there or we can continue the discussion next week. | 15:54 |
| jog0 | and one of the first things that they had to change was the scheduler. As it didn't work at that scale, what are you guys discussing to make scheduling work at scale? | 15:54 |
| belmoreira | PhiLDay: this means we can't have filter_tenant_id=id1, id2, id3 | 15:55 |
| belmoreira | per aggregate | 15:55 |
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| n0ano | jog0, would be very interested to see what BlueHost did, I don't think we're doing anything specific to address scale right now. | 15:55 |
| jog0 | n0ano: ohh :(, scale seems like one of the most important use cases for all this stuff | 15:56 |
| jog0 | bluehost gutted the scheduler all together | 15:56 |
| jog0 | and just swapped in a simple one | 15:56 |
| jog0 | compute nodes broadcasting stats to all schedulers every minute turns out to not scale well among other things | 15:57 |
| n0ano | jog0, without identifying what the problems were with the current scheduler? | 15:57 |
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| PhiLDay | @belmoreira - have to fly no, maybe we can follow up on e-mail (phil.day@hp.com) | 15:58 |
| jog0 | n0ano: ^, and the schedulers just spun processing all the incomming compute node reports | 15:58 |
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| jog0 | comstud and I have a bug open on this, https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1178008 | 15:58 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1178008 in nova "publish_service_capabilities does a fanout to all nova-compute" [Undecided,Triaged] | 15:58 |
| n0ano | jog0, maybe that was a solveable problem rather than just replacing things | 15:58 |
| jgallard | PhiLDay, belmoreira , but as a compute can belongs to several aggregates, it can have several tenants? | 15:58 |
| senhuang | bluehost's scalability is amazing | 15:58 |
| jog0 | n0ano: agreed, so lets solve it | 15:59 |
| n0ano | jog0, I would love to discuss this further next week if possible, will you be here then? | 15:59 |
| jog0 | sure | 15:59 |
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| n0ano | OK, we'll have to close for now but I'm hoping next week will be lively | 15:59 |
| n0ano | Tnx everyone | 15:59 |
| n0ano | #endmeeting | 15:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings" | 15:59 | |
| senhuang | thanks | 15:59 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 4 15:59:54 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2013/scheduler.2013-06-04-14.59.html | 15:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2013/scheduler.2013-06-04-14.59.txt | 15:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/scheduler/2013/scheduler.2013-06-04-14.59.log.html | 16:00 |
| belmoreira | jgallard: yes… But each aggregate can't have a list of project ids | 16:00 |
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| belmoreira | thanks everyone | 16:00 |
| primeministerp | #startmeeting hyper-v | 16:00 |
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| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 4 16:00:44 2013 UTC. The chair is primeministerp. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: hyper-v)" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'hyper_v' | 16:00 |
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| primeministerp | hi all, this is going to be quick | 16:00 |
| ociuhandu | hi all | 16:01 |
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| primeministerp | multiple people not able to make it to today | 16:01 |
| primeministerp | ociuhandu: howdy | 16:01 |
| primeministerp | hopefully luis will show up | 16:01 |
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| primeministerp | I wanted to talk some puppet bits w/ lluis | 16:02 |
| primeministerp | ociuhandu: you have anything to add | 16:02 |
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| primeministerp | if not going to cut it early | 16:02 |
| primeministerp | and continue being heads down | 16:02 |
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| ociuhandu | primeministerp: not really | 16:02 |
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| primeministerp | ok, then I'm calling it. | 16:02 |
| primeministerp | #endmeeting | 16:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings" | 16:03 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 4 16:03:02 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:03 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2013/hyper_v.2013-06-04-16.00.html | 16:03 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2013/hyper_v.2013-06-04-16.00.txt | 16:03 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/hyper_v/2013/hyper_v.2013-06-04-16.00.log.html | 16:03 |
| liuxpei | <primeministerp>: will Alexssandro join the meeting? I want to discuss https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1177927 with him | 16:03 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1177927 in nova "VHD snapshot from Hyper-V driver is bigger than original instance" [Undecided,In progress] | 16:03 |
| ociuhandu | primeministerp: as i've been looking on deploying the compute + quantum I think I can check if the list of dependencies is actual, maybe it'll help u on puppet too | 16:03 |
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| shahzad | Can any body help me to know where does discussion happen..because here i just see the people logging in/out | 16:16 |
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| shahzad | hi | 16:24 |
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| sjensen | test | 17:11 |
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| sjensen | ping | 17:24 |
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| hartsocks | hello | 17:44 |
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| stevemar | hello | 18:00 |
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| henrynash | hi | 18:01 |
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| bknudson | hi | 18:01 |
| ayoung | KEYSTONE! | 18:01 |
| gyee | \o | 18:01 |
| topol | Hi | 18:01 |
| ayoung | KEYSTONERS ASSEMBLE! | 18:01 |
| stevemar | yay keystone | 18:01 |
| ayoung | Uncle topolino! | 18:01 |
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| dolphm | o/ | 18:01 |
| lbragstad | Hi | 18:01 |
| topol | somehow they made me come back to work | 18:02 |
| dolphm | #startmeeting keystone | 18:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 4 18:02:08 2013 UTC. The chair is dolphm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'keystone' | 18:02 |
| dolphm | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting | 18:02 |
| ayoung | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/KeystoneMeeting | 18:02 |
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| dolphm | #topic High priority bugs or immediate issues? | 18:02 |
| dolphm | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/1179955 | 18:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "High priority bugs or immediate issues? (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:02 | |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1179955 in keystone "Disabling a tenant would not disable a user token" [Critical,In progress] | 18:02 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, so...just to point out | 18:03 |
| dolphm | ayoung: that doesn't need to be in the meeting notes every week :P | 18:03 |
| ayoung | this is a slippery slope | 18:03 |
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| dolphm | there's a few high priority bugs on our plate that we need to get backported to grizzly | 18:03 |
| ayoung | I mean, we are not yet disabling projects | 18:03 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: sure we are | 18:03 |
| ayoung | we meaning Keystone | 18:04 |
| ayoung | we are not disabling the hyopervisors | 18:04 |
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| ayoung | or, the VMS rather | 18:04 |
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| dolphm | correct, that's a whole different issue tracked in bp notifications | 18:04 |
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| dolphm | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/notifications | 18:04 |
| dolphm | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/notifications | 18:04 |
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| ayoung | but...we will need to be able to list tokens by project, which will be expensive, and not make termie happy | 18:05 |
| bknudson | termie's been quiet lately | 18:05 |
| ayoung | bknudson, day job has demanded his attention | 18:05 |
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| bknudson | should the project be in the token table/ | 18:06 |
| dolphm | regarding disabling tenants, we've had several related issues over the past 6 months regarding authz against disabled entities... we really need a framework to consistently handle the consequences of disabling/deleting any given entity | 18:06 |
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| henrynash_ | dolphm: agreed, I think was a bit over zealous in the changes i made to grants/disabling/deletions etc. | 18:07 |
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| dolphm | performance has to come second to security related functionality... i think it's alright if disabling/deleting an entity is understood to be an expensive operation... we can fix performance later | 18:07 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, my suggestion is that we focus on short term tokens, and then the whole disable/revoke mechanism is not required. | 18:08 |
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| bknudson | we still have existing code out there that has to work. | 18:08 |
| simo | ayoung: I guess you need to define short-term | 18:08 |
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| ayoung | simo, 5 minutes | 18:08 |
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| simo | ayoung: does that mean users need to renew credentials every 5 minutes ? | 18:09 |
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| ayoung | simo, within clock skew, the same amount of time for a change to propate through the system | 18:09 |
| ayoung | simo, they will need a new token, yes | 18:09 |
| simo | from a master token ? | 18:09 |
| simo | or full re-authentication ? | 18:10 |
| simo | what happens for requests that needs longer time ? | 18:10 |
| dolphm | bknudson: project / domain, depending on scope | 18:10 |
| dolphm | henrynash_: i think you made great progress in the right direction, but there's still some gaps to fill | 18:10 |
| dolphm | i'd just like to make sure they're all filled so this is the last such defect we get | 18:10 |
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| ayoung | simo, later discussion | 18:10 |
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| henrynash | dolphm: agreed..feel free to assign some of these to me to sfix if we think we need to | 18:11 |
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| henrynash | hmm…is the chat room misbehaving for others….I seem to get only bursts of messages every few minutes... | 18:13 |
| bknudson | henrynash: working for me. | 18:14 |
| henrynash | ok | 18:14 |
| gyee | henrynash, I am having the same problem | 18:14 |
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| dolphm | henrynash: sure | 18:14 |
| dolphm | two other reviews that simply need some love, as they're relatively high priority for backporting https://review.openstack.org/#/c/31552/ https://review.openstack.org/#/c/31559/ | 18:14 |
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| topol | dolphm, I will review today. Will help me get back into the swing of things | 18:15 |
| ayoung | approaved and ... | 18:15 |
| dolphm | henrynash: that's happened to me w/ irc on poor wifi in the past | 18:15 |
| dolphm | #topic Inherited roles from domain | 18:15 |
| dolphm | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/29781/ | 18:15 |
| dolphm | henrynash: was this just on the agenda from last week? | 18:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Inherited roles from domain (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:15 | |
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| dolphm | topol: thanks | 18:16 |
| henrynash | dolphm: yes, but I left it on since we've not managed to close it yet... | 18:16 |
| gyee | I have two issues on that one | 18:16 |
| henrynash | I went ahead and updated it as we discussed last week... | 18:16 |
| gyee | 1) we need to extend the capability to all domains | 18:17 |
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| henrynash | but gyee and others have some legit concerns | 18:17 |
| gyee | 2) one, instead of multiple, APIs to get the effective role grants | 18:17 |
| dolphm | henrynash: anything worth discussing here, or just want more attention on the review? | 18:17 |
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| henrynash | so I think I'd like some guidance on the one vs multiple apis | 18:17 |
| henrynash | (Gyee's 2nd point) | 18:17 |
| henrynash | two choices: | 18:17 |
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| henrynash | a) extending, as is shown in the current proposal, various apis to support inherited roels | 18:18 |
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| henrynash | b) change the format of the grant call, to provide more or less terms to achieve this: | 18:19 |
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| henrynash | e.g. Role applicable to all projects within a domain | 18:20 |
| henrynash | PUT /domains/{domain_id}/users/{user_id}/roles/{role_id}/projects | 18:20 |
| henrynash | Roles inherited by all projects in all domains | 18:20 |
| henrynash | PUT /usrs/{user_id}/roles/{role_id}/projects | 18:20 |
| henrynash | Roles inherited by all domains, at the domain level | 18:20 |
| henrynash | PUT /usrs/{user_id}/roles/{role_id}/domains | 18:20 |
| gyee | I would like to see GET /user/{id}/roles return the effective grants, plus extra information on where the roles are granted | 18:20 |
| ayoung | gyee, would "extrat info" be an additional call? | 18:20 |
| henrynash | (which was Gyee's suggestion) | 18:20 |
| gyee | ayoung, no | 18:21 |
| henrynash | (so this is actually Gyee's 1st point, sort) | 18:21 |
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| ayoung | gyee, how would it look? | 18:21 |
| gyee | it would be in the same collection | 18:21 |
| gyee | just add an extra "scope" field or something | 18:21 |
| henrynash | gyee: that's already in the spec…we just need to change the name slightly and implemt it as speced | 18:21 |
| henrynash | (i.e. it's in the v3 spec!!!) | 18:21 |
| dolphm | on point 1) i'd argue that global roles are completely out of scope for this change, HOWEVER, this change should be made with thought put towards what global roles would look like. global roles have been repeatedly poo-poo'd by the community since diablo | 18:21 |
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| gyee | dolphm, inherited is semi or not full global :) | 18:22 |
| gyee | if not | 18:22 |
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| dolphm | gyee: henrynash: i think point 2 can be discussed better in review, with the context of the calls themselves? | 18:22 |
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| gyee | same use case | 18:22 |
| gyee | role assignment is really about the scope it covers | 18:23 |
| gyee | global, domain-global, domain-local, or project | 18:23 |
| henrynash | dolphm: agreed | 18:23 |
| gyee | that's essentially what "inherited" means | 18:23 |
| gyee | really about role scoping | 18:23 |
| henrynash | so "inherited" as I defined it is "domain-local" in your terminology? | 18:24 |
| gyee | if we are going down the inherited path, we need something generic | 18:24 |
| gyee | henrynash, it would be domain-global | 18:24 |
| gyee | since it covers the entire domain | 18:24 |
| gyee | domain-local is just domain grant without inheritance | 18:25 |
| henrynash | gyee: ahh, so domain-local is what we have today for a domain role | 18:25 |
| gyee | correct | 18:25 |
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| bknudson | can a role scope be both domain-local and domain-global? | 18:26 |
| henrynash | do my argument agains global is simply that .given that domain creation is either a rare occurrence (which case adding a role to each domain is not a chore) or frequent and automated (in which case automation could do the role assignment) - is the lack of global role really that bad? | 18:26 |
| topol | would help to somewhere clearly define domain-local, domain-global, etc. | 18:26 |
| gyee | bknudson, if we want, my point is we need something generic so we can extend later if we want | 18:26 |
| ayoung | what is the distinction between domain-global and domain-local? | 18:27 |
| gyee | domain-global = inherited by all projects | 18:27 |
| gyee | domain-local = domain only | 18:27 |
| simo | better nming perhaps: global-scope, domain-scope, project-scope | 18:27 |
| ayoung | ok, can we not call it domain-global | 18:27 |
| topol | simo +1 | 18:28 |
| ayoung | simo, +1 | 18:28 |
| gyee | simo, that's fine, we can make the names more intuitive | 18:28 |
| gyee | but we need something extensible | 18:28 |
| simo | gyee: it' half the work, really :) | 18:28 |
| gyee | and generic | 18:28 |
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| simo | dolphm: may I raise a concern ? | 18:28 |
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| simo | maybe it's my lack of knowledge though | 18:28 |
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| ayoung | so...isn't this really a mapping issue | 18:29 |
| ayoung | users in Group X get a role on all projects in domain Y | 18:29 |
| henrynash | gyee: so your argument is that the api changes should allow a progression to more globalness in the future if we chose that path? | 18:29 |
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| gyee | henrynash, correct | 18:29 |
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| henrynash | gyee: Ok, understand that | 18:30 |
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| ayoung | So...dchadwick would, if he were here, point out that this is just the sort of problem the mapping code is supposed to solve | 18:31 |
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| simo | ayoung: it is possible | 18:31 |
| ayoung | maybe we should punt on this until we have a plan to get that integrated instead | 18:31 |
| gyee | ayoung, mapping is a different issue I think | 18:31 |
| ayoung | gyee, mapping is a mechanism | 18:31 |
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| simo | ayoung: is there a concept of groups in keystone currently ? | 18:31 |
| henrynash | ayoung: it's rally how we express that various mappings we want (or might want) | 18:32 |
| henrynash | gyee: so you would be ok if we didn't go all the way to "global", but the api changes we make would allow us a natural progression to that in the future if we chose it? | 18:32 |
| ayoung | simo, yes | 18:32 |
| gyee | mapping is name manipulation | 18:32 |
| simo | ayoung: what for ? I can't think of why you would want it | 18:32 |
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| ayoung | gyee, mapping is "attribute in" becomes "Attribute out" | 18:32 |
| gyee | henrynash, as long as we make it generic and extensible, I am fine | 18:32 |
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| ayoung | gyee, "attribute out" in this case would be "role in project" | 18:33 |
| simo | aren't projects sufficient ? | 18:33 |
| ayoung | simo, nope | 18:33 |
| ayoung | projects are the groupsing for external resources | 18:33 |
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| henrynash | gyee: ok, let me work on that and update the bp | 18:33 |
| ayoung | groups are like LDAP groups for users | 18:33 |
| gyee | ayoung, role is just a name today | 18:33 |
| gyee | nothing more | 18:33 |
| ayoung | gyee, it is the inheritance thing that mapping solves | 18:33 |
| ayoung | the mechanism for assigning implicit roles | 18:33 |
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| simo | you know the concern I have is that it seem we have nowhere a document that describes the security model and all the security/identity elements in the system and what they are intended to be used for | 18:34 |
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| simo | this means everyone will have their own ideas about things | 18:34 |
| simo | and there will be friction implementing any change | 18:34 |
| gyee | ayoung, role manipulation can be done in the pluggable token provider if you want :) | 18:34 |
| henrynash | dolphm: ok, maybe time for another topic…I still 20 mins | 18:34 |
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| henrynash | (I stole 20 mins) | 18:34 |
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| gyee | that's where we pull all the roles and stuff them into token | 18:34 |
| ayoung | gyee, mapping is the mechanism for implementing | 18:34 |
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| ayoung | so, yes | 18:34 |
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| ayoung | simo, you had an issue with the service catalog | 18:35 |
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| simo | well sort of | 18:35 |
| ayoung | you need to get an endpoint out, but don't jhave a token | 18:35 |
| ayoung | and right now we say that is "admin only" | 18:35 |
| simo | I think that's a big dicussion and I gave up on it for now | 18:35 |
| ayoung | dolphm, is there any reason to "protect" the service catalog? | 18:35 |
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| simo | but the quesiton I have is why read access to the catalog is restricted ? | 18:35 |
| gyee | yeah, we need an interface for service catalogs, similar to AccessInfo | 18:35 |
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| gyee | perhaps it can lives in oslo | 18:36 |
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| simo | oslo ? | 18:36 |
| ayoung | simo, I do know that it is supposed to be scoped to give the user the "right" service catalog | 18:36 |
| simo | gyee: you mean as a client ? | 18:36 |
| ayoung | simo, oslo is openstack common | 18:36 |
| simo | ayoung: I know | 18:36 |
| bknudson | all data from Keystone should be protected by ssl | 18:36 |
| simo | (found out :) | 18:36 |
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| gyee | right, we need a consistent way for clients to access the service catalog | 18:36 |
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| simo | bknudson: ? | 18:36 |
| gyee | parse and access | 18:36 |
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| ayoung | gyee, so the question is do we need to protect the query for endpoints? | 18:37 |
| simo | bknudson: unless you are talking ssl client certs, ssl does not 'protect' much, on its own | 18:37 |
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| gyee | ayoung, sure, that's what endpoint-filter bp's about | 18:37 |
| ayoung | I would think that, at a minimum, we should drop the "admin is required" on querying the service catalog | 18:37 |
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| simo | gyee: is there any place that explains why the catalog must be secret? | 18:37 |
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| gyee | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/endpoint-filtering | 18:38 |
| ayoung | gyee, yeah, but I was think that was what we put in the token. But maybe direct query of all endpoints for a service would be exposing too much info? | 18:38 |
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| dolphm | (i'll take that as a yes) | 18:38 |
| dolphm | #topic DB2 enablement | 18:38 |
| dolphm | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/DB2Enablement | 18:38 |
| dolphm | bknudson: all yours | 18:38 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "DB2 enablement (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:38 | |
| simo | what is the point in withholding information about endpoints ? | 18:38 |
| bknudson | this should be a quick one... | 18:38 |
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| bknudson | others here have been working with the community to set up DB2 test env | 18:38 |
| bknudson | we have some docs up on the wiki now: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/DB2Enablement | 18:39 |
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| bknudson | that I've asked the guy who wrote it here to update with more detailed instructions for those not familiar with db2 | 18:39 |
| gyee | simo, what's the point of returning an endpoint you don't have access to? | 18:39 |
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| bknudson | we had a blueprint https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/db2-database that was closed | 18:39 |
| simo | gyee: (define you) | 18:39 |
| bknudson | and it seemed like the correct way to proceed was to file a bug and submit the code | 18:39 |
| ayoung | bknudson, so, my position is the same as before: we should make sure thatthe generic DB code executes the same on all platforms. THat requires getting the DB code into gate first and foremost | 18:39 |
| gyee | you = token holder | 18:39 |
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| bknudson | so that's what I plan to do | 18:39 |
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| simo | gyee: in my case I do not even have a token (and don't need one for now) | 18:40 |
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| ayoung | bknudson, so the issue is provisiong the DB for testing, and it sounds like tempest is the right place to do that. Ideally, the Postgresql and DB2 code paths would be identical | 18:40 |
| bknudson | ayoung: I agree it would be great to have it in the gate. | 18:40 |
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| bknudson | ayoung: I thought even the postgres testing was out of the gate since nobody was supporting it? | 18:41 |
| dolphm | (i got booted by freenode) | 18:41 |
| simo | bknudson: I use it every day :) | 18:41 |
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| simo | dolphm: seem there are issues on freenode today | 18:42 |
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| ayoung | bknudson, for now, you can add a config file in test so that we can run the migrations against DB2, and we'll work on getting the rest of the backend tests running against the real RDBMSs afterwards | 18:42 |
| dolphm | simo: are you supporting it? | 18:42 |
| gyee | sure, lets include DB2 | 18:42 |
| ayoung | dolphm, yes we are | 18:42 |
| bknudson | ayoung: easy to do. | 18:42 |
| simo | dolphm: you got booted for 'excess flood' | 18:42 |
| gyee | more tests more merrier | 18:42 |
| ayoung | DB2 won't go into gate, though | 18:42 |
| ayoung | That can be your companies Special sauce, bknudson | 18:42 |
| dolphm | simo: postgres gate is failing | 18:42 |
| bknudson | http://logs.openstack.org/31559/2/check/gate-tempest-devstack-vm-postgres-full/20047 : FAILURE in 53m 03s (non-voting) | 18:42 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: or ibm can donate CI resources to make it a gate | 18:43 |
| simo | tbh I find it a bit ridiculous we need to have more and more and more DBs ... | 18:43 |
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| gyee | bknudson, does DB2 need to be open sauce first? | 18:43 |
| simo | dolphm: I and ayoung will make sure someone takes a look | 18:43 |
| dolphm | simo: agree, but there's not one db that fits all | 18:43 |
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| simo | dolphm: it needs to fit US! right ? | 18:43 |
| dolphm | simo: everyone's deployment is different | 18:43 |
| simo | sigh | 18:43 |
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| dolphm | agree | 18:44 |
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| bknudson | gyee: I guess it's up to the community if they will accept code changes to support a non-open-source db. | 18:44 |
| simo | dolphm: it's just a slow down, crappy inducing factor, but I do understand, for once I can;t stand mysql :) | 18:44 |
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| dolphm | simo: agree | 18:44 |
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| dolphm | gyee: depends on the extent of the changes :( | 18:45 |
| dolphm | bknudson: * | 18:45 |
| gyee | knudson, should this be a legal discussion first? | 18:45 |
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| dolphm | bknudson: if you need proprietary support, then it's tough odds | 18:45 |
| simo | do we have db specific code actually ? | 18:45 |
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| simo | isn't everythign wrapped into sqlalchemy ? | 18:45 |
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| dolphm | bknudson: if you're simply discovering issues using db2 that benefit other backends, then great | 18:45 |
| dolphm | simo: migrations, typically | 18:45 |
| bknudson | simo: there are several places where we've got db-specific code in migrations. | 18:45 |
| gyee | simo, problem is sqlalchemy behave differently for different dbs | 18:45 |
| gyee | that's why more tests is good | 18:46 |
| bknudson | the changes I've got to support db2 are similar to the ones for mysql/postgres/sqlite. | 18:46 |
| simo | gyee: well of course, given different DBs have different features ... | 18:46 |
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| gyee | simo, no, I mean basic stuff like renaming a table | 18:47 |
| ayoung | bknudson, yeah...on that point | 18:47 |
| gyee | some support it some don't | 18:47 |
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| dolphm | bknudson: feel free to put them up for review | 18:47 |
| simo | dolphm: wouldn't it be beneficial at least to try to confine all 'special' code into a pluggable module ? | 18:47 |
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| ayoung | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/31249/ is not longer DB specific | 18:47 |
| bknudson | dolphm: ok, I'll try it. | 18:47 |
| dolphm | simo: migrations can be broken down that way already | 18:47 |
| simo | gyee: in fact renaming tables is a 'feature' :-/ | 18:47 |
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| bknudson | ayoung: I think https://review.openstack.org/#/c/31249/ is a good example where db2 support might be helpful. | 18:47 |
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| ayoung | bknudson, try running the Postgresl live tests against DB2 and post your results | 18:48 |
| bknudson | the mysql fix was specific to mysql whereas this one should work with db2. | 18:48 |
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| bknudson | I'll give it a try | 18:48 |
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| ayoung | bknudson, you should be able to modify the test config for DB2 and run | 18:49 |
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| ayoung | So...one issue on splitting identity if we have time? | 18:49 |
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| ayoung | I wrote it up as Mapping Usernames from Multiple IdP's to Keystone | 18:50 |
| ayoung | and sent it in email | 18:50 |
| ayoung | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/mapping-user-ids | 18:50 |
| dolphm | (fyi, i'm going to #endmeeting a bit early) | 18:51 |
| ayoung | jamielennox, dchadwick/ksiu and I have be debating this one, and I wanted to get a larger perspective | 18:51 |
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| gyee | ayoung, I'll take a look | 18:51 |
| ayoung | I think I want to drop the "expires" time thing from the user bp | 18:51 |
| gyee | on my todo list | 18:51 |
| gyee | +1 on dropping expires | 18:52 |
| ayoung | it seems to me that it should be role assignments which are time limited | 18:52 |
| gyee | nope | 18:52 |
| gyee | role assignments shouldn't have a time limit either | 18:52 |
| dolphm | #topic open discussion | 18:52 |
| mordred | fwiw - I don't think there are any problems adding db2 support patches - but it's unlikely that the CI systems will be able to test them for you | 18:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: keystone)" | 18:52 | |
| gyee | that's strictly a backend/provider issue | 18:52 |
| ayoung | gyee, true, it can be enforced by token expiriy | 18:52 |
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| ayoung | gyee, this is for autoprovisioning | 18:53 |
| dolphm | bknudson: mordred: nor does the community necessarily have the expertise to properly review them | 18:53 |
| mordred | dolphm: ++ | 18:53 |
| ayoung | So, what we need is a policy that enforces the token creation, but we don't need expl;icit APIs for them. | 18:53 |
| gyee | ayoung, not sure what you mean | 18:54 |
| ayoung | gyee, I am agreeing with you | 18:54 |
| gyee | how does token expiry related to role expiry? | 18:54 |
| bknudson | dolphm: I think we'll have ci infra internally here, so I'll probably post a fix if it breaks. | 18:54 |
| ayoung | gyee, think of it as "on demand you get a limited amount of resources for a limited time" | 18:54 |
| gyee | btw, my colleague is ready to work on the generic signature auth bp | 18:55 |
| gyee | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/generic-signature-validation | 18:55 |
| gyee | my colleague Nachi | 18:55 |
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| gyee | if you guys have some time, please review the proposal | 18:55 |
| ayoung | gyee, that is kindof what simo is working on, isn't it? | 18:55 |
| dolphm | bp temporary-user-provisioning can certainly be done as an extension - it doesn't need to be done as core | 18:55 |
| gyee | dolphm, +1 | 18:55 |
| dolphm | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/temporary-user-provisioning | 18:55 |
| gyee | ayoung, no, that's different | 18:55 |
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| gyee | I think simo is working on the kerberos stuff | 18:56 |
| ayoung | dolphm, agreed, and I think we don't need to expand the API to support it, the more I think about it, the more I am convinced it can be handled with current public APIs | 18:56 |
| ayoung | gyee, no, he is doing the messaging crypto stuff | 18:56 |
| ayoung | which includes HMAC | 18:56 |
| simo | gyee: no I am doing message signing | 18:56 |
| gyee | ok, we're good then | 18:57 |
| simo | gyee: and I have a patch in oslo-incubator that will give you access to generic HMAc as part of my bp | 18:57 |
| simo | gyee: so let's try not to duplicate work | 18:57 |
| ayoung | simo, I thought you were doing HMAC as part of that? | 18:57 |
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| simo | what I said precisely | 18:57 |
| gyee | simo, beautiful | 18:57 |
| ayoung | yes, you type faster than I do | 18:57 |
| gyee | we can definitely leverage your stuff | 18:57 |
| simo | gyee: please tell your colleague to review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/28471/ | 18:58 |
| simo | gyee: and let me know if he needs anything else | 18:58 |
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| dolphm | just a couple minutes left, but i'd suggest switching to -dev :) | 18:58 |
| dolphm | #endmeeting | 18:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings" | 18:59 | |
| gyee | simo, sure, thanks | 18:59 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 4 18:58:59 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2013/keystone.2013-06-04-18.02.html | 18:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2013/keystone.2013-06-04-18.02.txt | 18:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/keystone/2013/keystone.2013-06-04-18.02.log.html | 18:59 |
| simo | gyee: however I am not proposing an API, I see no point in doing HMAC through an API | 18:59 |
| simo | dolphm: agree | 18:59 |
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| jeblair | ci/infra meeting? | 19:00 |
| *** jeblair sets mode: -o jeblair | 19:00 | |
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| fungi | ya | 19:01 |
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| mordred | o/ | 19:01 |
| jeblair | #startmeeting infra | 19:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 4 19:01:32 2013 UTC. The chair is jeblair. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'infra' | 19:01 |
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| olaph | o/ | 19:01 |
| jeblair | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/InfraTeamMeeting | 19:01 |
| jeblair | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-05-28-19.02.html | 19:01 |
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| jeblair | #topic actions from last meeting | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:01 | |
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| jeblair | clarkb: did you get up to speed on recent testr'ing? | 19:02 |
| pleia2 | o/ | 19:02 |
| * mordred failed at his action from last week - but has had several emails indicating people are coming | 19:02 | |
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| zul | hola | 19:02 |
| jeblair | mordred: okay. are the dates confirmed? | 19:03 |
| fungi | mordred: do you have a venue? or is this taking place in your living room? | 19:03 |
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| nati_ueno | hi o/ | 19:03 |
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| mordred | fungi: I do not yet have a venue, but it will be near my living room | 19:03 |
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| mordred | jeblair: yes. june 27/28 | 19:03 |
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| mordred | we will either be in a swanky meeting place in soho if I can figure out how HP pays for such things - or a room at NYU :) | 19:04 |
| jeblair | #action mordred make a signup thingy for bootcamp | 19:04 |
| zul | oooooh nyu | 19:04 |
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| jeblair | reed: do we need to talk about the mailing list? | 19:05 |
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| fungi | i think we lost clarkb | 19:06 |
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| fungi | yeah, that was another massive netsplit | 19:06 |
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| fungi | or server drop | 19:06 |
| jeblair | #topic TryStack user management | 19:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "TryStack user management (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:06 | |
| mordred | clarkb1 is here | 19:06 |
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| mordred | hey nati_ueno ! | 19:07 |
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| fungi | bunch of people just flooded back in | 19:07 |
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| jeblair | annegentle: ping (you added this topic) | 19:07 |
| annegentle | jeblair: heya | 19:07 |
| jeblair | reed: ping (you mentioned this topic) | 19:07 |
| annegentle | nachi__: around? | 19:07 |
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| jeblair | nati_ueno: is here | 19:07 |
| annegentle | nati_ueno: woo! | 19:08 |
| annegentle | I'll just bring up the topics for your team's input if that's ok | 19:08 |
| annegentle | does anyone need trystack background info? | 19:08 |
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| clarkb1 | fungi: I am sort of here | 19:08 |
| clarkb1 | it finally dropped my other connection | 19:09 |
| annegentle | The goal for TryStack is to use donated hardware and admin resources to give people a chance to try OpenStack as cloud consumers/devs. | 19:09 |
| annegentle | nati_ueno and jaypipes started it a while back | 19:09 |
| reed | jeblair, I have nothing to report unfortunately | 19:09 |
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| annegentle | originally Facebook was the starting point for user access, with the intention to move it | 19:09 |
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| annegentle | a kerfluffle came up last week where Facebook wanted a privacy policy in place for what happens with user info for a group. Sorry I don't have many details there. | 19:10 |
| reed | now it seems that Facebook has kicked the app for lack of a privacy policy | 19:10 |
| annegentle | Ideally we'd have a user identity layer that enables access to Trystack without the use of Facebook | 19:11 |
| fungi | ...launchpad? | 19:11 |
| mordred | I know of people in this channel who would like that | 19:11 |
| reed | fungi, anything | 19:11 |
| annegentle | The short list of requirements would be: | 19:11 |
| annegentle | 1. Group member management (CRUD, remove) | 19:11 |
| annegentle | 2. ensure real identities, not bots | 19:11 |
| annegentle | 2.a not spammers | 19:12 |
| annegentle | 3. Enable group communication with users | 19:12 |
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| annegentle | Facebook does meet these except well you know, walled garden and all | 19:12 |
| fungi | ahh, okay, so just general unvetted openid providers are off the table | 19:12 |
| annegentle | really just want to get ideas for managing 8000+ users and how to migrate | 19:12 |
| reed | regarding 3, I think we should re-use what we have | 19:12 |
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| reed | that is: mailing lists and ask | 19:12 |
| fungi | (...and irc!) | 19:13 |
| clarkb | and IRC (it is linked to directly on trystack.org) | 19:13 |
| * fungi laughs | 19:13 | |
| annegentle | well, is it apprporiate to use openstack-announce for Trystack announcements? (seems like it) | 19:13 |
| reed | clarkb, I don't see the 8k facebook users use irc... but I may be wrong :) | 19:13 |
| clarkb | however, there is a fair amount of churn on #openstack about trystack and none of the people with answers seem to hang out there... | 19:13 |
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| reed | ask is IMHO the best place to ask trystack things | 19:14 |
| mordred | reed: I think clark is saying that tons of people _do_ show up to IRC and ask questions about trystack | 19:14 |
| annegentle | clarkb: the churn happens when there's a problem with the cluster. I think #openstack is okay for asking questions about trystack, I can update the page to not use a separate channel. | 19:14 |
| reed | annegentle, for the migration, if we enable simply authentication via facebook (no group management) it should be ok | 19:14 |
| mordred | reed: and they do so in a channel that doesn't have trystack coverage | 19:14 |
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| jeblair | I think launchpad is as good as any other authn/authz system as the things you mention, and of course we use it for everything else openstack. | 19:14 |
| mordred | jeblair: ++ | 19:14 |
| annegentle | mordred: I haven't seen a trystack question in #openstack for a while | 19:14 |
| mordred | annegentle: ossum | 19:15 |
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| mordred | I think it if wants to 'feel' like an openstack project thing, launchpad is the way to go | 19:15 |
| annegentle | mordred: but might be a timing thing too | 19:15 |
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| clarkb | mordred: correct | 19:15 |
| clarkb | I think #openstack is fine but if trystack is going to continue advertising it on their website it should have more trystack people in that channel | 19:15 |
| annegentle | mordred: so originally I was thinking it's a different audience than the Launchpad crowd, that we should enable multiple identities to try to get coverage in more than just the dev crowd | 19:16 |
| annegentle | mordred: or go right to github since more activity there. | 19:16 |
| mordred | eh | 19:16 |
| fungi | how many trystack support people are there currently and what times do they hang out in #openstack? | 19:16 |
| reed | does anybody know what it takes to remove that facebook app auth from trystack and enable facebook oauth (and LP, maybe)? | 19:16 |
| annegentle | fungi: probably 3 | 19:16 |
| mordred | annegentle: what's the goal we're trying to get with using a different auth system? | 19:16 |
| annegentle | mordred: trying to expand the "community" beyond LP | 19:17 |
| mordred | annegentle: why | 19:17 |
| reed | mordred, because LP user experience sucks | 19:17 |
| mordred | we're not expecting that we're going to draw our community _from_ LP | 19:17 |
| mordred | it's a login mechanism | 19:17 |
| reed | and we don't want to force *users* to create yet another login in a system we don't control | 19:17 |
| mordred | and it's the one we use for SSO for OpenStack things | 19:17 |
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| fungi | reed: i don't think any of us disagree about lp being suboptimal. i'd love to see us have something better available to the project | 19:17 |
| mordred | our wiki is tied to it | 19:17 |
| annegentle | reed: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/trystack/+spec/openid-registration | 19:17 |
| annegentle | mordred: is doing the five whys with me. | 19:17 |
| reed | fungi, in the long run I think we will be using the openstack foundation db... | 19:18 |
| mordred | annegentle: I don' tknow what those are :) | 19:18 |
| jeblair | reed: if that is ever open sourced. :( | 19:18 |
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| fungi | reed: yeah, but lp between now and the openstack official identity provider means one fewer places we need to migrate from when that happens | 19:18 |
| jeblair | reed: i would not recommend trystack wait on the foundation db at the moment due to very slow progress. | 19:18 |
| mordred | I don't like facebook as a source, because it's not open source, and because there are community members who refuse to use it | 19:18 |
| annegentle | mordred: walled gardens abound :) | 19:18 |
| jeblair | fungi: +1 | 19:18 |
| reed | jeblair, talked to todd, it's not as simple... he can give you the details | 19:18 |
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| pleia2 | fungi +1 | 19:19 |
| mordred | I don't like github as a source, because it's not open source, and it would be more more step of confusion of people thinking that openstack uses github | 19:19 |
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| jeblair | reed: i would love for him to do that. it seemed simple when we last talked about it at the summit. | 19:19 |
| mordred | it doesn't have to be launchpad | 19:19 |
| reed | mordred, facebook is like any other oauth system, you don't have to use it | 19:19 |
| mordred | but I would like to see whatever the source is be somethign that's open source, and something that doesn't present a confusing experience | 19:19 |
| jeblair | mordred: +1 | 19:19 |
| mordred | reed: what? for trystack, currently, you have to have a facebook account | 19:20 |
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| fungi | and if it happens to be launchpad, it can just piggyback on the later migration we're going to have to do for everything else anyway | 19:20 |
| reed | mordred, what's wrong with the approach that Ask takes? authenticate using any system you want or create a new id | 19:20 |
| annegentle | mordred: I think the ideal experience is enabling people to identify using what ever auth they like | 19:20 |
| annegentle | reed: +1 | 19:20 |
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| jeblair | annegentle: then openid with allowing any providers is a good way to do that | 19:20 |
| mordred | reed, annegentle: so, that's a potential thing - but it completely misses out on points 2 and 3 you listed above | 19:20 |
| annegentle | I don't mean "what ever auth" that's silly, but I do mean that people represent themselves differently and may have reasons for which auth they want to id as | 19:21 |
| mordred | it doesn't provide for a group management system | 19:21 |
| jeblair | annegentle: if you allow any openid provider, it is a little easier for spammers | 19:21 |
| fungi | annegentle: sure but one of your other requirements was tying those identities back to some sort of group management and communication platform | 19:21 |
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| annegentle | mailing list can help with 3 | 19:21 |
| reed | mordred, right! that's why using oauth via FB is a good thing | 19:21 |
| mordred | reed: no | 19:21 |
| jeblair | reed: it is one of the reasons i have never seen trystack | 19:21 |
| reed | point 3 is IMHO not a priority of this project | 19:21 |
| mordred | reed: oauth via fb prevents jeblair from using trystack | 19:22 |
| reed | he is not the target audience :) | 19:22 |
| mordred | reed: who is? | 19:22 |
| annegentle | oath via more providers seems like the right direction? | 19:22 |
| mordred | we might need to go back to that question | 19:22 |
| annegentle | oauth | 19:22 |
| reed | consumers of API are | 19:22 |
| mordred | jeblair is a consumer of the API | 19:22 |
| mordred | in | 19:22 |
| jeblair | annegentle: i think openid with more providers is the right direction | 19:22 |
| mordred | in fact | 19:22 |
| reed | mordred, but he has tens of other and better places to test openstack | 19:22 |
| mordred | he might be one of the most active consumers of the OpenStack API | 19:22 |
| * annegentle studies oauth v openid | 19:22 | |
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| jeblair | mordred: and earliest | 19:23 |
| reed | let me recap | 19:23 |
| mordred | reed: he's also indicitive of a type of alpha developer | 19:23 |
| reed | we are getting sidetracked | 19:23 |
| mordred | we're not | 19:23 |
| mordred | this is what the conversatoin started on | 19:23 |
| mordred | and it's an important point that you're trying to blow off | 19:23 |
| reed | I would like to re-frame the conversation | 19:23 |
| nati_ueno | hi sorry i'm back now | 19:23 |
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| mordred | yay! it's nati_ueno | 19:24 |
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| reed | we have now a very poweful tool that is not getting used at its best, we have limited resources to manage it, too | 19:24 |
| annegentle | nati_ueno: hurrah | 19:24 |
| nati_ueno | mordred: yay | 19:24 |
| reed | one of the issues that trystack faces is spammers and abuse | 19:24 |
| fungi | i think the question of whether we're targeting lowest-common-denominator users with near-zero technical skills, a la the facebook crowd, is a very valid question | 19:24 |
| reed | those things take *lots* of time | 19:24 |
| mordred | fungi: ++ | 19:24 |
| mordred | reed: right. launchpad, it turns out, is a pretty good spammer filter :) | 19:25 |
| reed | as we've seen with the previous wiki, launchpad does a bad job at preventing spammers | 19:25 |
| fungi | people who are interested in testing cloud servers also are not likely afraid of launchpad, irc, mailing lists, and so on | 19:25 |
| mordred | it does? | 19:25 |
| mordred | oh. ok. my bad | 19:25 |
| mordred | wait | 19:25 |
| mordred | what did launchpad have to do with spam on the previous wiki? | 19:25 |
| reed | mordred, I remember the contrary... spam was an issue on the previous wiki | 19:25 |
| jeblair | annegentle: i thought when we turned on openid on the wiki the spam was redured? | 19:25 |
| mordred | reed: how is that related to launchpad? | 19:25 |
| annegentle | We also need to figure out whether the useage/experience of the current 8000 users is more worth maintaining than disrupting. That might help shape priorities. | 19:25 |
| annegentle | are we going to get 8000 more? | 19:25 |
| annegentle | If we got 8000 on FB that's something to consider is what I mean. | 19:25 |
| mordred | reed: the previous wiki started off not using launchpad auth | 19:26 |
| mordred | which is when we had spam issues | 19:26 |
| annegentle | jeblair: yes the openid on the wiki helped immensely with the spam problem | 19:26 |
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| mordred | the current wiki uses - launchpad | 19:26 |
| reed | I thought there was a bot that via lp kept adding bad edits | 19:26 |
| annegentle | I'm still saying, what about 8K FB users? Is that meaningful to y'all? We have over 9000 Launchpad users? We have no way of seeing an intersection there but I bet it's less than 1k | 19:27 |
| fungi | the later moin spam issues had mostly to do with someone leveraging a compromised lp account, i believe | 19:27 |
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| jeblair | so openid is a good tech choice because it gives us a lot of options for providers now and in the future. | 19:27 |
| fungi | same sort of thing is possible with just about any auth provider | 19:27 |
| reed | fungi, ok, at least I didn't dream of that :) | 19:27 |
| nati_ueno | yeah, I'm scaring spam users | 19:27 |
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| nati_ueno | We are giving free VM with root | 19:27 |
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| jeblair | we could do openid with any provider and make it very easy for people and spammers | 19:27 |
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| jeblair | or we could do openid with launchpad as the provider, and use that for the following side effects: | 19:27 |
| nati_ueno | Yes but we need manegement ui for that | 19:28 |
| nati_ueno | Just one click and ban the spammer | 19:28 |
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| nati_ueno | I can't find such providers which can provide user management UI otherwise facebook | 19:28 |
| reed | openID is one choice, oauth via facebook IMHO needs to be part of the range of possibilities | 19:28 |
| jeblair | - spammers are less likely to go through the lp signup process repeatedly | 19:28 |
| jeblair | - lp provides group management, meaning it can be used for authz as well as authn | 19:28 |
| nati_ueno | So there are some way to spam | 19:28 |
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| nati_ueno | just spam comment | 19:28 |
| nati_ueno | or use the VM for VM | 19:29 |
| fungi | i really think that it's hard to scare spammers away from free services anyway. in my service provider life we had customers who offered free trials for their mail marketing services and were plagued by spammers signing up for free trials with stolen credit card numbers | 19:29 |
| nati_ueno | sorry typo | 19:29 |
| nati_ueno | using VM for spamming | 19:29 |
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| nati_ueno | For attacher, it is worth login to the lp for spamming | 19:29 |
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| nati_ueno | also we can create any number of lp id | 19:29 |
| nati_ueno | without Name | 19:29 |
| nati_ueno | so IMO, lp id is not sufficient for trystack | 19:30 |
| fungi | so yes, any barrier to entry lower than or equal to requiring a credit card is little barrier at all to criminal spammers | 19:30 |
| jeblair | nati_ueno: but if you're using a lp group, then you can only add people with names (and maybe email addresses) | 19:30 |
| mordred | ok. I'd like to make a suggestion. we've now been on this topic for 22 minutes and we have several more to go | 19:30 |
| jeblair | nati_ueno: and if they are abusive, you can remove them from the group | 19:30 |
| mordred | there seem to be as many opinions here as people | 19:30 |
| nati_ueno | jeblair: But what's if the spanner creates new lp id after we banned him? | 19:30 |
| mordred | how about we have someone go away and write up a list of proposals/possibilities | 19:30 |
| fungi | mordred: secondeed | 19:30 |
| nati_ueno | mordred: +1 | 19:30 |
| reed | I'll do it | 19:30 |
| mordred | that we can read offline and discuss and we can come back to the meeting next week | 19:31 |
| pleia2 | thanks reed | 19:31 |
| annegentle | thanks reed | 19:31 |
| jeblair | nati_ueno: i don't think an authentication system can prevent spammers. | 19:31 |
| nati_ueno | jeblair: Yes. We need some ID. | 19:31 |
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| reed | #action reed to summarize the discussion so far and send recap to mailing list | 19:31 |
| nati_ueno | jeblair: credit card is best | 19:31 |
| nati_ueno | however it costs | 19:31 |
| nati_ueno | Facebook ID is easier way to get some kind of IDs | 19:31 |
| reed | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/trystack/+spec/openid-registration | 19:32 |
| fungi | stolen credit card numbers abound and can be had for cheap | 19:32 |
| jeblair | regardless, additional work will be required. i don't think any system suceptible to spam has solved the problem just with authentication. | 19:32 |
| nati_ueno | It is easy to check spammer because he has no friends | 19:32 |
| jeblair | nati_ueno: i have no friends and i am not a spammer. you can get false positives that way too. | 19:32 |
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| nati_ueno | jeblair: I can be your friend :). | 19:32 |
| jeblair | that's a great way to end this topic. :) | 19:33 |
| mordred | :) | 19:33 |
| jeblair | nati_ueno: thank you | 19:33 |
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| jeblair | #topic TripleO Testing (TOCI) | 19:33 |
| nati_ueno | jeblair: We are accepting new users without check for now | 19:33 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "TripleO Testing (TOCI) (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:33 | |
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| pleia2 | so, last week I was testing TOCI and learned we can't use kvm, so I tried using qemu | 19:33 |
| pleia2 | that was unuseably slow on hpcloud | 19:33 |
| jeblair | action mordred get hpcloud to support nested kvm | 19:34 |
| pleia2 | I then started looking into lifeless' takeover node to see if we could launch multiple vms instead of doing nested | 19:34 |
| mordred | jeblair: haha | 19:34 |
| pleia2 | but that 1) causes lots more problems (local lan between them?) 2) ends up not testing all of what we want to test anyway (it's not really tripleo anymore) | 19:34 |
| pleia2 | so lifeless suggested trying with lxc instead | 19:35 |
| pleia2 | that's where I'm at now | 19:35 |
| fungi | this would be lxc on (essentially) a devstack throwaway test slave? | 19:35 |
| pleia2 | fungi: right | 19:35 |
| fungi | i think lxc for testing things like that will probably work great. it has some security challenges still, but shouldn't be an issue in that situation | 19:36 |
| mordred | ++ | 19:36 |
| pleia2 | so I'm working through some lxc configs and doing some tests on hpcloud | 19:37 |
| jeblair | pleia2: sounds good! | 19:37 |
| jeblair | end of topic? | 19:38 |
| pleia2 | yeah | 19:38 |
| jeblair | #topic Py3K support, testing and potential platforms | 19:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Py3K support, testing and potential platforms (Meeting topic: infra)" | 19:38 | |
| lifeless | pleia2: SpamapS_ suggested it; I misunderstood then got it :) | 19:38 |
| clarkb | woo this has been fun :) | 19:38 |
| mordred | clarkb: ++ | 19:38 |
| pleia2 | lifeless: oh right, thanks SpamapS_! :) | 19:38 |
| clarkb | so I got into running things with py3k because my log pusher script is a py3k script and I want to use gear | 19:38 |
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| * zul ears perked up | 19:39 | |
| clarkb | I basically learned that you start scratching at the surface of this problem and very quickly find yourself deep underground | 19:39 |
| jeblair | also, zul wants to start running tests | 19:39 |
| clarkb | yes, I think tests are super important so that we stop ending up in giant pits | 19:39 |
| mordred | I don't like giant pits | 19:39 |
| fungi | so the question here is test with what version(s) on what platform(s) | 19:40 |
| fungi | and how to get there | 19:40 |
| clarkb | now /me gives it over to zul so he can talk about why testing is hard ;) | 19:40 |
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| jeblair | at the design summits, it was generally agreed to target 3.3 because supporting <3.3 and 2.x is hard | 19:40 |
| zul | thats what i rember as well | 19:40 |
| fungi | that matches my recollection | 19:40 |
| zul | and precise only have 3.2 | 19:41 |
| mordred | which is why we should ditch ubuntu for debian on our test slaves | 19:41 |
| * mordred ducks | 19:41 | |
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| mordred | honestly - I think the open question is do we revisit our recent decision to just run precise for our test slaves | 19:41 |
| fungi | mordred: to be fair you get 3.3 on debian stable right now by installing it from testing, at least until it starts getting into the backports repo | 19:41 |
| mordred | because we could test 3.3 on quantal or raring | 19:42 |
| clarkb | quantal also has 3.3 | 19:42 |
| fungi | quantal also has not a lot of life left in it already, right? | 19:42 |
| mordred | but quantal only has a 9 month release window | 19:42 |
| clarkb | I really don't think we can do raring | 19:42 |
| jeblair | or do we add new slaves to do 3.x testing? | 19:42 |
| mordred | oh - sorry , that's what I was suggesting | 19:42 |
| jeblair | and perhaps treat it more opportunistically? | 19:42 |
| mordred | not moving our precise slaves back to quantal | 19:42 |
| clarkb | jeblair: yes | 19:42 |
| clarkb | if we do Debian we could have python3.alltheversions on the same box and use those slaves to test python3 | 19:43 |
| jeblair | we'll try to run python3.x tests on branches as long as we can, but we're not going to do crazy things when they go eol | 19:43 |
| mordred | quantal slaves for 3.3 testing and then move them to raring when we have raring slaves availble? | 19:43 |
| mordred | jeblair: ++ | 19:43 |
| jeblair | mordred: +1, and if raring works on stable/havana, sure, and if it doesn't, drop the tests? | 19:43 |
| zul | raring should already be avialable on hp cloud btw | 19:43 |
| mordred | jeblair: yah | 19:43 |
| fungi | if we decide to go the debian route, i spun a test slave up in rackspace and threw together a quick gap list... | 19:44 |
| fungi | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/debian-wheezy-slave-todo | 19:44 |
| mordred | zul: nope | 19:44 |
| mordred | zul: I see no raring | 19:44 |
| jeblair | fungi: oh yeah, quantal puppet issue. :( | 19:44 |
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| zul | mordred: ugh ill bug them again | 19:45 |
| mordred | jeblair: oh. wait. which one was that? | 19:45 |
| fungi | jeblair: right several of the items on that debian/wheezy list also apply to quantal and raring | 19:45 |
| jeblair | mordred: what fungi said | 19:45 |
| mordred | yum | 19:45 |
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| jeblair | mordred: specifically, the puppetlabs thing was the shebang problem, iirc | 19:45 |
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| mordred | ah. yes | 19:46 |
| mordred | that | 19:46 |
| mordred | wow | 19:46 |
| mordred | everything about this is making me have memories of hating people | 19:46 |
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| * lifeless whispers | 19:46 | |
| lifeless | heat | 19:46 |
| lifeless | oac | 19:46 |
| lifeless | orc | 19:46 |
| lifeless | doit | 19:46 |
| * mordred kickbans lifeless | 19:46 | |
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| zul | so yeah python3 get it done ;) | 19:47 |
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| fungi | thanks zul ;) | 19:47 |
| jeblair | my sense is that we're generally in favor of launching quantal slaves for python3.3 testing... that sound about right? | 19:47 |
| mordred | zul: add python3.3 to precise-backports might be easier? | 19:47 |
| mordred | jeblair: yes | 19:47 |
| mordred | jeblair: pending the work to make the puppet happy | 19:48 |
| zul | mordred: easier to stick it a ppa | 19:48 |
| jeblair | (and some of us are ready to hop on over to debian at the first sign of trouble) | 19:48 |
| mordred | oh - well... | 19:48 |
| mordred | jeblair: one thought zul brought up was - what if he put python3.3 in a ppa? | 19:48 |
| jeblair | i can't immediately come up with a reason to to do that | 19:49 |
| zul | mordred: then you arent going to get other crap in the backport-archive | 19:49 |
| fungi | it's really just a question of whether someone is taking care of continually backporting new 3.3 releases to cover security issues | 19:49 |
| zul | i can do that | 19:49 |
| jeblair | sorry, 'a reason not to do that' | 19:49 |
| jeblair | assuming zul is minding that ship. :) | 19:49 |
| mordred | it might actually be less work than spinning up quantal slaves and porting puppet nonsense | 19:49 |
| jeblair | i hear he knows about packaging | 19:49 |
| mordred | what? | 19:49 |
| mordred | zul? | 19:49 |
| mordred | crazy! | 19:49 |
| fungi | i think it sounds great if zul's taking care of the package updates quickly | 19:49 |
| clarkb | I would be onboard wit ha py3k PPA | 19:50 |
| zul | whats more work for me to do | 19:50 |
| fungi | zul: so yeah python3 get it done ;) | 19:50 |
| zul | fungi: okie dokie...done...just kidding | 19:50 |
| jeblair | #action zul make py3k ppa | 19:50 |
| jeblair | actually, let's think that through a little more... | 19:51 |
| jeblair | if we used quantal/raring, we would have slaves dedicated to py3.3 testing | 19:51 |
| zul | right | 19:51 |
| dprince | I have another suggestion. Why not use Fedora 18 (which has python 3.3 natively) | 19:51 |
| fungi | that's also backporting things like python3-pip and whatever other libs we need, right? | 19:51 |
| * dprince will do the puppet work to make it work. | 19:51 | |
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| jeblair | which means we could make that be the only python env, which makes the puppet pip problem simple... | 19:52 |
| jeblair | if we used a backport ppa on precise, we would either still need to make dedicatde slaves for python3 testing | 19:52 |
| clarkb | It would be nice to support 3.2 too if possible | 19:52 |
| jeblair | or solve the puppet pip problem | 19:52 |
| mordred | jeblair: good point | 19:52 |
| clarkb | while more difficult it is not impossible to do 2.x and 3.2 and some projects may want to do that | 19:52 |
| jeblair | isn't that correct? (because we do have puppet pip installing things needed for tox testing; like tox?) | 19:52 |
| SpamapS_ | mordred: quantal is 18 month release window btw. | 19:53 |
| fungi | and raring is 9? | 19:53 |
| SpamapS_ | yes | 19:53 |
| pleia2 | fungi: right | 19:53 |
| fungi | k | 19:53 |
| mordred | jeblair: not to derail us further... but should we re-think about deb packaging the things we install via puppet from pip? | 19:53 |
| * zul sniggers | 19:53 | |
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| mordred | I think I like the dedicated python3.3 slave idea | 19:54 |
| jeblair | dprince: ack; (quantal|f18) might be an option, but the puppet pip thing is an issue regardless | 19:54 |
| fungi | dprince: what's the support period on f18? | 19:54 |
| mordred | jeblair: is it on f18 if python3.3 is just the python on f18? | 19:54 |
| dprince | fungi: 13 months. | 19:55 |
| fungi | k | 19:55 |
| fungi | dprince: when is f19 due out? | 19:55 |
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| SpamapS_ | how much effort does it take to bring new slave OS's online? | 19:55 |
| jeblair | mordred: i'm cool with deb packaging; several of our contributors deb package things we're using, so we can collab more there | 19:55 |
| jeblair | mordred: i phrased that poorly, i meant to say that f18 and quantal are in the same boat.... | 19:55 |
| clarkb | SpamapS_: not a whole lot anymore. mostly just making puppet handle corner cases | 19:55 |
| mordred | ah. gotcha | 19:55 |
| dprince | fungi: july | 19:55 |
| dprince | fungi: 2nd | 19:56 |
| fungi | SpamapS_: it is a nonzero effort, but no more than a week or two once the providers have images available to us generally | 19:56 |
| jeblair | mordred: so i think the decision tree is like "precise or (quantal or f18)" | 19:56 |
| zul | jeblair: just one thing the packages are called python3-all, etc | 19:56 |
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| SpamapS_ | Ok so if you do quantal, you are talking about having to do one more flip to saucy before you can bridge to 14.04... | 19:57 |
| fungi | SpamapS_: pretty much, yes, there's a gap there between either quantal or raring and the next lts | 19:57 |
| SpamapS_ | you could technically even just go right from quantal -> 12.04 if you start with the betas and don't mind the potential for being EOL'd whilst fixing issues | 19:58 |
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| SpamapS_ | fungi: there's no gap. 12.10 (quantal) is supported until April 2014. | 19:58 |
| SpamapS_ | Its just that.. there's no overlap | 19:58 |
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| fungi | ahh, right, and no guarantee our providers will have glance or images available immediately | 19:59 |
| jeblair | we're about out of time; let's take this back to #openstack-infra and see if we can get a consensus real quick... | 19:59 |
| * fungi agrees | 19:59 | |
| jeblair | #endmeeting | 19:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings" | 19:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 4 19:59:51 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-06-04-19.01.html | 19:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-06-04-19.01.txt | 19:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/infra/2013/infra.2013-06-04-19.01.log.html | 19:59 |
| *** SpamapS_ is now known as SpamapS | 19:59 | |
| *** SpamapS has quit IRC | 20:00 | |
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| ttx | Who is around for the TC meeting ? | 20:00 |
| markmc | me, me, me | 20:00 |
| markmc | that's three to start with | 20:00 |
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| notmyname | here | 20:00 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 20:01 |
| ttx | That would make 5 marks | 20:01 |
| dolphm | o/ | 20:01 |
| ttx | we need some kind of upper limit on the number of marks | 20:01 |
| zaneb | o/ | 20:01 |
| gabrielhurley | \o | 20:01 |
| russellb | \p | 20:01 |
| zaneb | (I am shardy's proxy for the day) | 20:01 |
| russellb | err. | 20:01 |
| russellb | \o | 20:02 |
| ttx | jd__, annegentle, mordred, markwash, jgriffith, vishy, markmcclain: around ? | 20:02 |
| jd__ | o/ | 20:02 |
| markwash | hello | 20:02 |
| dolphm | just fyi, freenode was super flaky during the keystone meeting a couple hours ago | 20:02 |
| annegentle | here o/ | 20:02 |
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| ttx | #startmeeting tc | 20:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 4 20:03:01 2013 UTC. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 20:03 |
| ttx | On the agenda today, mostly open discussion on governance topics | 20:03 |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/TechnicalCommittee | 20:03 |
| mordred | ttx: sup! | 20:03 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion: TC membership evolution, take 2 | 20:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion: TC membership evolution, take 2 (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:03 | |
| ttx | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/TC_Membership_Models | 20:03 |
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| ttx | We have been looking into various models to evolve the Technical Committee membership | 20:03 |
| ttx | The discussion on the -dev ML is at: | 20:03 |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-May/009578.html | 20:03 |
| ttx | For today I'd like us to come down to one or two models, discuss further this week and vote next week at the earliest | 20:04 |
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| ttx | So far two models emerged from the discussion: the "All-directly-elected 11" model and the "6 categorized PTLs + 7 directly-elected" model | 20:04 |
| ttx | Choice between the two all boils down to simplicity (simple direct election) vs. diversity (enforced by the categorized PTLs seats) | 20:04 |
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| ttx | Most opinions expressed on the thread were "I prefer All-directly-elected 11, but I could live with 6 categorized PTLs + 7" | 20:05 |
| ttx | Any other opinion ? Anyone strongly against one model or the other ? | 20:05 |
| markmc | good summary | 20:05 |
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| markwash | I must have misread the category support somehow | 20:05 |
| markmc | what happened to the best PTLs model? | 20:05 |
| russellb | i really, really want to just try directly-elected and see that it's a problem somehow before making it so darn complicated | 20:05 |
| markmc | that was my second preference | 20:05 |
| russellb | i don't like the categories approach very much at all, personally | 20:06 |
| jd__ | russellb: sounds reasonable to me too | 20:06 |
| markmc | russellb, these three marks agrees | 20:06 |
| ttx | markmc: so you prefer all-directed 11 but would pick "best 7 PTLs + 6" as your second preferred option ? | 20:06 |
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| russellb | i'd pick that over categories, as well | 20:06 |
| gabrielhurley | I'm still wary of an all-directly-elected, but I'm willing to be proven wrong | 20:06 |
| dolphm | ttx: does the +6 guarantee 6 seats for non-PTL's? | 20:06 |
| markmc | ttx, right | 20:06 |
| ttx | dolphm: no | 20:07 |
| markmcclain | I'm wary too of an all 11 election | 20:07 |
| zaneb | are there figures somewhere on which projects have how many ATCs? | 20:07 |
| markwash | (not that it matters as much, but) my second is categories + directly elected, but not "PTL" categories | 20:07 |
| ttx | markmcclain: why ? | 20:07 |
| ttx | markmcclain: diversity ? | 20:07 |
| ttx | would like to make sure we capture your wariness accurately :) | 20:08 |
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| markmcclain | yeah… I think that there needs to a be a certain level of enforced diversity | 20:08 |
| russellb | i'm expecting we'd elect 11 smart folks who deeply care about cross-project success, and would consult the right people depending on the issue | 20:08 |
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| vishy | o/ | 20:09 |
| vishy | sorry i'm late | 20:09 |
| ttx | It's difficult to enforce diversity and stay simple, so you have to pick one or the other. Personally I care more about representativity and size, so both models would be acceptable for me | 20:09 |
| notmyname | russellb: I'd expect that too, but isn't a point of setting up these rules to protect against the situation when our expectations aren't met? | 20:09 |
| markwash | ping | 20:09 |
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| russellb | notmyname: i'd just like to see an actual problem before making it overly complex | 20:09 |
| ttx | notmyname: some see simplicity as a key goal... so creating complex rules to prevent inexistant problems is seen as a net negative | 20:10 |
| notmyname | russellb: I agree, but I'd also like to avoid awkward situations before they happen. eg "no company may have more than 2 seats" | 20:10 |
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| russellb | do you feel people represent company interests on the TC as opposed to how they personally feel for broad success of OpenStack? | 20:11 |
| russellb | I do not | 20:11 |
| ttx | notmyname: which model(s) do you prefer ? | 20:11 |
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| russellb | i think if anyone is seen to be representing their company, they should not be re-elected | 20:12 |
| ttx | markmcclain: same question -- would the "categories + directly elected" model have your preference ? | 20:12 |
| russellb | someone said that on the ML, and I agree | 20:12 |
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| notmyname | ttx: I think I could go either way. I have more concerns over the "all directly elected" model, and those have to do with project representation (especially if the "PTL can override" rule still exists) | 20:12 |
| ttx | russellb: yeah, that should be seen as a bug, not a feature | 20:12 |
| notmyname | russellb: ok, a "no more than 2 ATCs from a single project" ;-) | 20:13 |
| markwash_ | ack :-/ got caught on the wrong side of a netsplit | 20:13 |
| markmcclain | ttx: yeah I like the cat+direct elect mix | 20:13 |
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| markmc | notmyname, I'd like to see more people contributing across projects, that rule would discourage it | 20:13 |
| russellb | notmyname: what if you're an ATC across many/most projects? | 20:14 |
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| notmyname | note the winking ;-) | 20:14 |
| russellb | ah. | 20:14 |
| ttx | notmyname: the only "control" the TC has over projects is about making them part of "OpenStack" or not. We don't have +2 on the repos. | 20:14 |
| notmyname | point being, I think some simplicity is worth sacrificing for better representation | 20:14 |
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| ttx | so there is a nuclear option, but otherwise PTLs and core people have control over their project | 20:15 |
| notmyname | ttx: and that's my point there. if the TC doesn't have representation from a particular subgroup, then it hurts the overall group (ie encourages divisions) | 20:15 |
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| jgriffit1 | notmyname: I'm mixed TBH, I don't know how often the TC steps in on a project | 20:16 |
| ttx | jgriffit1: never happened. | 20:16 |
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| notmyname | it's noble to hope for more cross-project contributions, but I don't think it's realistic. | 20:16 |
| dolphm | jgriffit1: good point | 20:16 |
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| jgriffit1 | ttx: well then it a non-issue for sure | 20:16 |
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| russellb | notmyname: certainly for all the projects that are using oslo, it's very common to work cross project | 20:17 |
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| russellb | notmyname: i actually feel like swift is the exception in that area, unfortunately | 20:17 |
| bcwaldon | markwash: pong | 20:17 |
| markwash_ | I'm a little meh oh categories being project-oriented, can somebody speak to the sense of that? | 20:17 |
| dolphm | russellb: +1 | 20:17 |
| notmyname | markwash_: it's a hash function to lower the total number of members | 20:18 |
| ttx | So, if we except markmc... does everyone put "All-directly 11" and "categorized+6" at the top two spots of their preference list ? | 20:18 |
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| ttx | Trying to reduce the options | 20:18 |
| markwash | did we bisect? | 20:18 |
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| russellb | ttx: i'm with markmc on my option #2 | 20:18 |
| markmc | do we have a proposed category list? | 20:19 |
| markwash | ttx: I'd have to know the categories first | 20:19 |
| dolphm | ttx: yes | 20:19 |
| jgriffit1 | ttx: I'm fine with either, think I prefer #2 | 20:19 |
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| jgriffit1 | markwash: people with blonde hair versus red | 20:19 |
| markwash | I'm in both categories! | 20:19 |
| jgriffit1 | :) | 20:19 |
| markwash | everything is true of the null set :-) | 20:19 |
| annegentle-web | I'm fine with either "best ptl" or "categories" | 20:19 |
| zaneb | the best 7 PTLs seems marginally better than categorised to me | 20:20 |
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| * annegentle-web read eavesdrop but might not be caught up | 20:20 | |
| zaneb | although I'm not sure it's helpful to have a hard link between being a PTL and being on the TC - they seem like very different jobs | 20:20 |
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| ttx | ok, so "best ptls+5" has supporters | 20:20 |
| zaneb | PTL seems to be more about project management | 20:20 |
| markwash | zaneb: +10 very different it seems | 20:20 |
| markmcclain | I'd be fine with best PTLs too | 20:20 |
| ttx | zaneb: +10 | 20:20 |
| zaneb | TC should be technical | 20:20 |
| annegentle-web | Categories got up to 12 first draft... | 20:20 |
| annegentle-web | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-January/004539.html | 20:20 |
| bcwaldon_ | zaneb: ttx and I were just talking about that - I wanted to suggest we actually drop the T from PTL | 20:20 |
| russellb | bcwaldon_: i've wondered that myself, as well | 20:21 |
| bcwaldon_ | but that's might be a conversation for a different time | 20:21 |
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| russellb | my PTL work is much more about project management than technical work | 20:21 |
| jgriffit1 | bcwaldon_: throws the chaos grenade and runs | 20:21 |
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| jgriffit1 | can we save that discussion for another day maybe :) | 20:21 |
| * russellb nods | 20:21 | |
| jgriffit1 | we could rat hole I think | 20:21 |
| dolphm | +1 for saving | 20:21 |
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| zaneb | I think having any representative from core on a project > having the PTL from a project on the TC | 20:22 |
| markwash | I really like cross-cutting concerns for categories, rather than projects for categories | 20:22 |
| ttx | Well that's the benefit of the direct election... you don't draw so many lines implying other rules | 20:22 |
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| annegentle-web | mordred: how does programs/projects work well in either election system? | 20:23 |
| zaneb | markwash: those seem really complex to manage in comparison though :/ | 20:23 |
| markmc | annegentle-web, programs would have PTLs | 20:23 |
| vishy | russellb: but how are you going to convince someone else to do the work if you remove the T? | 20:23 |
| russellb | the amount of time spent in this round of discussion, as well as the last one, discussing the idea of categories should be telling | 20:23 |
| vishy | :o | 20:23 |
| dolphm | so, in a all-directly elected 11, all ATC's across all projects would be able to vote on all TC members? | 20:23 |
| mordred | annegentle-web: what markmc said | 20:23 |
| annegentle-web | markmc: ok tx | 20:23 |
| annegentle-web | thx even | 20:23 |
| ttx | dolphm: yes | 20:23 |
| russellb | vishy: *shrug* can discuss another time i guess :) | 20:23 |
| markwash | zaneb: russellb: fair points | 20:24 |
| markwash | which brings us back to direct | 20:24 |
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| zaneb | a shardy's proxy, I'm compelled to bring up the concern that direct election will result in ~11 Nova developers on the TC | 20:24 |
| zaneb | ;) | 20:24 |
| mordred | so - I think that's fair | 20:24 |
| markmc | the amount of ongoing bikesheding we'll have with categories just won't be worth it | 20:25 |
| ttx | zaneb: except the current directly-elected seats prove otherwise | 20:25 |
| mordred | but I'd like to point out that annegentle-web and I and ttx are all on here | 20:25 |
| russellb | markmc: +1 | 20:25 |
| russellb | it's killing me | 20:25 |
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| annegentle-web | zaneb: niceone | 20:25 |
| russellb | mordred: +1, with really high votes, because you guys are clearly amazing candidates to engage in cross project issues | 20:25 |
| annegentle-web | russellb: aw I like naming things :) | 20:25 |
| ttx | also it's likely that we would engage with representative condorcet, once we investigate how well it performs, further limiting block voting | 20:26 |
| markmc | zaneb, you're not the first to say that, but I really doubt that - do a thought experiment with e.g. posters to openstack-dev and see what names you come up with | 20:26 |
| zaneb | mordred: and that's great, the issue would be for smaller projects | 20:26 |
| zaneb | i.e. things that don't cut across multiple areas | 20:26 |
| mordred | zaneb: you know I got your back :) | 20:26 |
| markwash | for me, "right categories" > direct 11 > "wrong categories", but we'll always tend towards wrong categories in time, so direct feels better | 20:26 |
| ttx | zaneb: I actually think we'd end up with 11 core-project figures. | 20:26 |
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| vishy | mordred: agreed, we have proven with past elections that nova doesn't win all the elected seats. | 20:26 |
| ttx | + one or two pure Nova devs :) | 20:27 |
| mordred | zaneb: I think it we try to tie geting a TC seat to projects, we'll wind up rejecting smaller projects because epople don't want a huge tc | 20:27 |
| mordred | and I think that's worse for the 'small' projects in the long run | 20:27 |
| mordred | also - anybody can come pipe up during this meeting | 20:27 |
| zaneb | not picking on dolphm, but there are only like 5 people smart enough to work on keystone. yet it seems pretty important to me that it be represented | 20:27 |
| lifeless | oh hai | 20:27 |
| lifeless | piping up | 20:27 |
| jgriffit1 | mordred: I'm still confused on what the TC's are doing to projects that this is a concern? | 20:27 |
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| lifeless | tripleo is one of those small projects | 20:27 |
| russellb | programs? | 20:28 |
| russellb | :) | 20:28 |
| jgriffit1 | mordred: we seem to spend most of our time deciding what to vote on as we're doing now | 20:28 |
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| lifeless | russellb: indeed | 20:28 |
| mordred | jgriffit1: yeah. I agree | 20:28 |
| annegentle-web | one logistic aspect I realized when doing some math is that there's never 11 directly elected at once. Just five or six. | 20:28 |
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| annegentle-web | so the "all nova all the time" might be lessened as a risk | 20:29 |
| ttx | I'd like a quick show of hands: could you all tell which models are acceptable to you, so that we see which models emerge as favorites and clarify a bit | 20:29 |
| lifeless | ttx: also nova will lose leverage as it gets a narrower focus - when we finally kill nova volume and nova network. | 20:29 |
| * ttx says 1. "All-directly-elected 11" and 2. "Categorized + 7" | 20:30 | |
| markmc | 1) all 11, 2) best PTLs, 3) categories | 20:30 |
| russellb | 1) directly elected, distant 2) best PTLS + whatever, a very very distant 3) categories | 20:30 |
| annegentle-web | ttx: one more question. How is "best" PTL calculated -- must number of votes? | 20:30 |
| mordred | 1. "All-directly-elected 11" and 2. "Categorized + 7" | 20:30 |
| annegentle-web | most | 20:30 |
| ttx | markmc, russellb: "categories" or "categories + 7" ? | 20:30 |
| markmc | ttx, latter | 20:30 |
| dolphm | 1) torn between directly elected 11 and categorized+7 | 20:30 |
| russellb | i hate it so much i don't even care | 20:31 |
| markmc | heh | 20:31 |
| jgriffit1 | best PTL's + | 20:31 |
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| markmc | russellb, more than the current model ? | 20:31 |
| markmcclain | 1. best PTLs 2) cat+7 3) direct 11 | 20:31 |
| markwash | 1) good categories + N, 2) direct 11 | 20:31 |
| jd__ | 1. "All-directly-elected 11" and 2. "Categorized + 7" | 20:31 |
| russellb | ooh ... good question ... no. so, categories+7 > current | 20:31 |
| * dolphm s/categorized/best PTLs/ | 20:31 | |
| markmc | russellb, thought so :) | 20:31 |
| notmyname | categories+X or direct elected | 20:31 |
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| mordred | ttx: it's feeling like perhaps we should do a condorcet vote of three choices here | 20:32 |
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| russellb | basically no consensus at all ... | 20:32 |
| jgriffit1 | mordred: :) | 20:32 |
| dolphm | mordred: do it! | 20:32 |
| markmc | well, I don't see anyone saying they want it to stay as it is | 20:32 |
| ttx | mordred: yeah, unless we can narrow down to 2 :) | 20:32 |
| markmc | that's consensus | 20:32 |
| mordred | markmc: ++ | 20:32 |
| russellb | markmc: +1 | 20:32 |
| annegentle-web | is there a directly elected 13 option? | 20:32 |
| markmc | and a lot of people not hugely opposed to any of the 3 leading options | 20:32 |
| ttx | annegentle: I see it as an implementation detail | 20:33 |
| mordred | yeah. so I think we honestly need to do a ranked vote of the three leading options | 20:33 |
| mordred | and then just leave it at that | 20:33 |
| ttx | mordred: what would be the 3rd leading option ? | 20:33 |
| dolphm | annegentle-web: does the number of members affect your opinion on how they're allocated? | 20:33 |
| annegentle-web | I slightly prefer 6 Categories + 7 directly elected over directly 11. | 20:33 |
| mordred | ttx: direct, cat+7, best ptl+ | 20:33 |
| markmc | mordred, I object to your ordering! | 20:33 |
| * markmc chuckles | 20:34 | |
| annegentle-web | dolphm: more that I want to ensure people aren't concerned of teh diff between 13 and 11 TC members (it just won't matter) | 20:34 |
| mordred | or, let's call it direct, cat+ and ptl+ - and leave specifics on how many humans a type has as a detail | 20:34 |
| ttx | mordred: so, technically, motions are affirmative votes (agree or not agree), but I guess we can pick the motion using condorcet and see if it gets 2.3 of the votes afterwarrds | 20:34 |
| mordred | ttx: zomg | 20:34 |
| mordred | ttx: ok | 20:34 |
| ttx | 2/3 | 20:34 |
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| * mordred makes a motion that we do a condorcet vote, and then unanimously affirm the output of that vote | 20:35 | |
| ttx | Oh, the other way around. interesting. | 20:35 |
| ttx | isn't governance fun | 20:35 |
| russellb | quite. | 20:35 |
| markmc | mordred, on a point of order, you can't unilaterally unanimously anything | 20:35 |
| jgriffit1 | keep this up you won't get 13 people willing to run :) | 20:35 |
| * mordred shoots markmc in the head | 20:35 | |
| ttx | I'm ready to accept condorcet results over that set of 3 | 20:36 |
| zaneb | stepping back a little, why are we even worried about numbers? Everybody is already allowed/encouraged to participate in this meeting. The thing you have to be a TC member for - the voting part - is the only thing that already does scale | 20:36 |
| ttx | do we have 2/3 of our members agreeing on that ? | 20:36 |
| jgriffit1 | ttx: I agree | 20:36 |
| russellb | i'd rather know what i'm affirming | 20:36 |
| russellb | so, the earlier suggestion | 20:36 |
| dolphm | ttx: i agree | 20:36 |
| mordred | zaneb: I think the thing is that we like to avoid voting when we can | 20:37 |
| zaneb | mordred: so it doesn't matter who is on the TC at all then? | 20:37 |
| ttx | also we ahve the option to make the meeting +v if we can't have a discussion anymore | 20:37 |
| mordred | zaneb: except for when it does | 20:37 |
| ttx | so far people are behaving, which is great | 20:37 |
| ttx | looks like we don't have 2/3 in support of accepting whatever comes out of the condorcet poll of the three mentioned options | 20:38 |
| ttx | speak now or we'll do it in two steps | 20:38 |
| jgriffit1 | ttx: would it help if I voted 5 times | 20:38 |
| markwash | wait | 20:38 |
| markwash | was I supposed to #agree or something? | 20:39 |
| mordred | ttx: how about we do a #vote on the thign above | 20:39 |
| * markwash was waiting for the starting gun | 20:39 | |
| mordred | I tihnk it's not clear how you're counting | 20:39 |
| annegentle-web | I'm confused. | 20:39 |
| ttx | mordred: ok | 20:39 |
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| gabrielhurley | +1 | 20:39 |
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| gabrielhurley | also, are we voting on voting? | 20:39 |
| * annegentle is also confused | 20:39 | |
| russellb | i think so. | 20:40 |
| markmc | gabrielhurley, that's exactly what we're doing | 20:40 |
| markwash | annegentle-web died of confusion | 20:40 |
| markwash | only to be reborn | 20:40 |
| gabrielhurley | if you're gonna vote on something, then make it clear we need to respond | 20:40 |
| annegentle | markwash: snort | 20:40 |
| ttx | Let's vote on "let's have a condorcet poll with the direct, cat+ and ptl+ options and accept whatever comes out of it" | 20:40 |
| mordred | yes please | 20:40 |
| dolphm | +1 | 20:40 |
| ttx | we need 2/3 support otherwise we'll do it the other way around | 20:40 |
| annegentle | who are the voters in the poll? | 20:40 |
| mordred | the tc | 20:40 |
| markwash | what's the other way around? | 20:40 |
| ttx | 2/3 affirmative votes. TC members obviously | 20:41 |
| annegentle | mordred: ok | 20:41 |
| russellb | other way around: condorcet vote, then a vote to affirm the result | 20:41 |
| russellb | (or decline and go back to drawing board) | 20:41 |
| annegentle | why does it have to be condorcet? | 20:41 |
| jgriffit1 | 3 votes to get to a vote... sigh | 20:41 |
| markwash | russellb: thanks | 20:41 |
| mordred | annegentle: because we have three options | 20:41 |
| ttx | #startvote let's have a condorcet poll with the direct, cat+ and ptl+ options and accept whatever comes out of it? yes, no, abstain | 20:41 |
| dolphm | annegentle: because there's 3 options, and there's no clear best 2 | 20:41 |
| annegentle | mordred: ok, lightbulb, thanks | 20:41 |
| openstack | Begin voting on: let's have a condorcet poll with the direct, cat+ and ptl+ options and accept whatever comes out of it? Valid vote options are yes, no, abstain. | 20:41 |
| openstack | Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts. | 20:41 |
| zaneb | I propose we form a subcommittee to vote on how we will vote | 20:41 |
| * zaneb runs | 20:41 | |
| dolphm | #vote yes | 20:41 |
| russellb | #vote no | 20:41 |
| ttx | #vote yes | 20:41 |
| mordred | #vote yes | 20:41 |
| jgriffit1 | #vote yes | 20:42 |
| annegentle | #vote yes | 20:42 |
| markwash | #vote yes | 20:42 |
| markmcclain | #vote no | 20:42 |
| zaneb | #vote abstain | 20:42 |
| gabrielhurley | #vote yes | 20:42 |
| russellb | would you all actually be happy enough with any result? or do you just want it over? | 20:42 |
| markmc | #vote abstain | 20:42 |
| russellb | just making sure. | 20:42 |
| * ttx reads his copy of the charter to figure out if its enough | 20:42 | |
| dolphm | russellb: both | 20:42 |
| notmyname | #vote yes | 20:42 |
| mordred | russellb: I want to do a proper vote on the items | 20:42 |
| mordred | russellb: I don't think a straight IRC vote will work | 20:42 |
| mordred | russellb: so, whatever the outcome of the vote is, is the outcome of us voting | 20:43 |
| ttx | we need 10 yes, do we have them | 20:43 |
| mordred | russellb: so I will accept it, same as any vote | 20:43 |
| ttx | no we don't | 20:43 |
| ttx | anyone left to vote ? | 20:43 |
| ttx | vishy: ? | 20:43 |
| vishy | #vote abstain | 20:43 |
| markwash | thanks | 20:43 |
| dolphm | lol | 20:44 |
| vishy | sorry | 20:44 |
| ttx | #endvote | 20:44 |
| jd__ | #vote yes | 20:44 |
| openstack | Voted on "let's have a condorcet poll with the direct, cat+ and ptl+ options and accept whatever comes out of it?" Results are | 20:44 |
| vishy | misread the vote | 20:44 |
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| openstack | yes (8): ttx, notmyname, annegentle, markwash, mordred, gabrielhurley, dolphm, jgriffit1 | 20:44 |
| openstack | abstain (3): markmc, zaneb, vishy | 20:44 |
| vishy | :) | 20:44 |
| openstack | no (2): russellb, markmcclain | 20:44 |
| gabrielhurley | I blame the abstainers | 20:44 |
| dolphm | vishy: haha | 20:44 |
| ttx | we needed 10 yes, and even counting jd that's 9 | 20:44 |
| markmc | gabrielhurley, for our wisdom? | 20:44 |
| gabrielhurley | for perpetuating this debate on voting | 20:45 |
| ttx | so unless people regret their vote we'll do it the other way around. Condorcet on the 3 options, then draft a motion and approve it 2/3 | 20:45 |
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| gabrielhurley | though perhaps refusing to vote on a vote is a wise statement of principle... | 20:45 |
| mordred | gabrielhurley: heh | 20:45 |
| annegentle | gabrielhurley: heh | 20:45 |
| ttx | let's go to the next topic, unless someone has more to say on this one | 20:45 |
| markwash | I got something to say! | 20:46 |
| markwash | no wait, nevermind | 20:46 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion: where does diskimage-builder fit ? | 20:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion: where does diskimage-builder fit ? (Meeting topic: tc)" | 20:46 | |
| markwash | yay | 20:46 |
| ttx | This discussion is a bit linked to the outcome of the previous one | 20:46 |
| ttx | lifeless asked where diskimage-builder should fit at: | 20:46 |
| ttx | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-May/009539.html | 20:46 |
| ttx | Should it go through incubation and be an integrated project ? Should it be shipped as part of Glance ? as an Oslo library ? as a by-product of a TripleO program ? | 20:46 |
| ttx | As long as there are rights attached to specific types of projects (think PTL seats on the TC) this question is actually a bit loaded | 20:47 |
| ttx | (It's not as important if we opt for a model which requires less classification) | 20:47 |
| markwash | as somebody who hears a lot about images and interoperability, I think DiB is an awesome tool that deserves some sort of OS blessing of sorts | 20:47 |
| ttx | (Then I think it's safe to consider TripleO a "program" and diskimage-builder a deliverable of that "program") | 20:47 |
| markwash | that's right "sort of * of sorts" | 20:47 |
| annegentle | why not within glance? | 20:47 |
| ttx | annegentle: define "within" | 20:48 |
| ttx | as a separate deliverable of the Glance team ? | 20:48 |
| zaneb | so, to clarify, we're not envisioning diskimage-builder as a foundation for image building as a service, right? | 20:48 |
| annegentle | maybe it should be 'part of' glance in the same way python-glanceclient is 'part of' glance. | 20:48 |
| ttx | as a binary in glance tarball itself ? | 20:48 |
| mordred | zaneb: it has been discussed | 20:48 |
| annegentle | (quoting from lifeless 's email) | 20:48 |
| mordred | zaneb: but no work in that direction has happened | 20:48 |
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| markwash | annegentle: I'm open to that, but people have pointed out that glance is really api-focused | 20:48 |
| ttx | annegentle: only makes sense if that's the same team working on it | 20:49 |
| annegentle | markwash: ok | 20:49 |
| markwash | rather than getting down to the crunchy image bits | 20:49 |
| ttx | projects are TEAMS. | 20:49 |
| markwash | we are pretty agnostic about the bits of the image generaly | 20:49 |
| ttx | groups of people working on the same thing | 20:49 |
| russellb | I really like the idea of TripleO as a program with DiB as a deliverable | 20:49 |
| mordred | me too - it matches how oslo is working | 20:49 |
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| zaneb | it seems to me that DiB fits very comfortably in TripleO | 20:49 |
| ttx | russellb: +1 | 20:49 |
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| mordred | and it has an incubator repo as well | 20:49 |
| annegentle | I think a program with a deliverable makes sense | 20:49 |
| zaneb | russellb: +1 | 20:49 |
| markwash | I'm interestd in TripleO but would still want to know more | 20:49 |
| markmc | yeah, tripleo definitely seems like the big user of di-b | 20:49 |
| markmc | and most overlap in people working on it | 20:50 |
| lifeless | markwash: what would you like to know? | 20:50 |
| ttx | so the linked question is.. do we bless programs ? | 20:50 |
| lifeless | I'm here and can type to it | 20:50 |
| mordred | markmc: although reddwarf and others are starting to use it as well | 20:50 |
| annegentle | just trying to look at it from a consumer perspective - "where do I get an image builder?" they might go to glance | 20:50 |
| markmc | mordred, optionally? | 20:50 |
| ttx | does a program goves you ATC rigths ? | 20:50 |
| ttx | gives* | 20:50 |
| markmc | ttx, I think it would, yes | 20:50 |
| markmc | should | 20:50 |
| mordred | markmc: no. as the basis for how they build the images they use with their guest in them | 20:50 |
| markwash | lifeless: is it a set of deliverables for helping deploy openstack on openstack? or something more monolithic? | 20:50 |
| ttx | are the deliverables of a program covered by the vulnerability management team ? | 20:50 |
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| lifeless | markwash: it's a set of deliverables | 20:51 |
| markmc | mordred, but not at runtime, right ? | 20:51 |
| ttx | if it gives ATC rights, then the TC needs to bless them | 20:51 |
| mordred | markmc: so at the moment, reddwarf depends on dib as best as I understand it | 20:51 |
| mordred | markmc: I don't know what you mean? | 20:51 |
| ttx | (and program needs to accept oversight of the TC) | 20:51 |
| lifeless | markwash: some like dib are new code trees, others like contriutions to heat and nova are patches to existing openstack projects | 20:51 |
| markmc | mordred, building a guest image is more of a setup step, and I assume you could use any image builder | 20:51 |
| mordred | markmc: yes. I suppose you are completely right | 20:52 |
| markmc | mordred, as opposed to reddwarf calling out to di-b while processing an API request | 20:52 |
| markwash | lifeless: cool, makes sense then | 20:52 |
| lifeless | markmc: so reddwarf build a guest image as part of their test suite,a nd execute it. | 20:52 |
| mordred | markmc: totally | 20:52 |
| markmc | whereas di-b seems like more of a runtime dep for tripleo | 20:52 |
| markwash | lifeless: are there some long-term-plan docs / vision out there somewhere I could read? | 20:52 |
| lifeless | markmc: you can use any iamge builder; and we have a narrow definition for just that reason. | 20:52 |
| ttx | lifeless: ok, so it seems dib belongs in the tripleo program, we just need to finalize introducing the concept of programs first | 20:52 |
| lifeless | markwash: certainly. http://github.com/tripleo/incubator | 20:52 |
| jd__ | do we know more about the reddwarf/dib dependency? I find this odd at first glance (no pun intended) | 20:52 |
| markwash | lifeless: ty! | 20:52 |
| ttx | is that a good summary ? ^ | 20:52 |
| lifeless | ttx: works for me. | 20:52 |
| markmc | lifeless, yeah, but that would mean considering di-b as a test tool dependency | 20:53 |
| zaneb | ttx: +1 | 20:53 |
| lifeless | markmc: for reddwarf it is. it's a runtime dep for tripleo. | 20:53 |
| markmc | lifeless, right | 20:53 |
| lifeless | markmc: I'm not happy with di-b on stackforge when it's a CI dep for incubated/integrated project(s). | 20:53 |
| lifeless | markmc: which is why I mailed the list :). | 20:54 |
| markwash | ttx: intriguing. . do you have summary of "program vs project" on hand somewhere? | 20:54 |
| * markwash is sorry if he just wasn't doing his homework. . . | 20:54 | |
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| markmc | lifeless, fair enough | 20:54 |
| ttx | markwash: https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1t1t2Aj1rIvxNnIvbjsiTPe5Szpx-lXBpW1dbL4K08cE/edit?usp=sharing | 20:54 |
| ttx | everyone likes a drawing | 20:54 |
| markmc | wow | 20:54 |
| ttx | markwash: still very much WIP | 20:54 |
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| ttx | trying to understand all the consequences | 20:54 |
| markmc | just happened to have that "on hand", heh ? | 20:55 |
| ttx | worked on taht today | 20:55 |
| ttx | I've seen the future | 20:55 |
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| ttx | the interesting parts are actually in the empty spaces. Like where does the VMT support end ? What do we call the horizontal teams ? | 20:55 |
| markmc | ttx, I'll talk to you tomorrow about better colours for the colour blind :) | 20:55 |
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| zaneb | if moving to direct TC elections means we can get rid of all these ridiculous legalistic subcategories of names, then I will vote for it right now | 20:56 |
| ttx | zaneb: see, you're starting to get it | 20:56 |
| jgriffit1 | ttx: how about you just tell us what you saw in the future and we can skip the vote :) | 20:56 |
| ttx | markmc: was kinda hoping that "all-directed 11" would get so plebiscited that the whole drawing would be useless | 20:56 |
| markmc | ttx, heh | 20:57 |
| lifeless | so tripleo is about operating/deploying openstack - with a particular focus on eating-own-dogfood all the way up the stack. | 20:57 |
| lifeless | just for clarity | 20:57 |
| markmc | ttx, I'm thinking programs would be a useful concept anyway | 20:57 |
| annegentle | ttx: yay for data in diagrams | 20:57 |
| zaneb | ttx: I welcome our new Nova overlords ;D | 20:57 |
| * russellb isghs | 20:57 | |
| russellb | nova people are evil, too, watch out | 20:58 |
| ttx | markmc: sure | 20:58 |
| ttx | so... | 20:58 |
| ttx | #agree dib belongs in the tripleo program, we just need to finalize introducing the concept of programs first ? | 20:58 |
| markwash | #agree | 20:59 |
| mordred | ++ | 20:59 |
| annegentle | sounds right | 20:59 |
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| ttx | also known as "lifeless, please wait while we catch up | 20:59 |
| ttx | " | 20:59 |
| jgriffit1 | +1 | 20:59 |
| zaneb | +1 | 20:59 |
| russellb | ++ | 20:59 |
| ttx | #action ttx to set up TC condorcet poll to help select the model that will be put on the TC motion | 20:59 |
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| ttx | one more minute | 21:00 |
| mordred | #action ttx to buy mordred some beer | 21:00 |
| ttx | err not | 21:00 |
| mordred | does that work? | 21:00 |
| jd__ | you wish | 21:00 |
| mordred | drat | 21:00 |
| russellb | #undo | 21:00 |
| russellb | :-p | 21:00 |
| jgriffit1 | If it does I'm setting up an action item for mordred to buy me multiple beers | 21:00 |
| ttx | Only if it is Icehouse beer | 21:00 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 21:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings" | 21:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 4 21:00:55 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2013/tc.2013-06-04-20.03.html | 21:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2013/tc.2013-06-04-20.03.txt | 21:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2013/tc.2013-06-04-20.03.log.html | 21:01 |
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| ttx | Can't wait until we are over this governance refresh :) | 21:01 |
| jgriffit1 | ttx: +1 | 21:01 |
| ttx | markmc, dolphm, notmyname, jd__, markwash, jgriffith, russellb, zaneb, gabrielhurley, markmcclain: still around ? | 21:01 |
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| russellb | yep | 21:01 |
| notmyname | here | 21:01 |
| dolphm | o/ | 21:01 |
| zaneb | yep | 21:01 |
| markmcclain | +1o/ | 21:01 |
| markmcclain | o/ | 21:01 |
| jd__ | o/ | 21:01 |
| markwash | o/ \o | 21:02 |
| ttx | jgriffit1: protip: don't ever become a PSF fellow | 21:02 |
| gabrielhurley | \o | 21:02 |
| markmc | yep | 21:02 |
| ttx | #startmeeting project | 21:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 4 21:02:20 2013 UTC. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'project' | 21:02 |
| jgriffit1 | :) | 21:02 |
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| * russellb does his usual clean up of nova blueprints out from under ttx | 21:02 | |
| ttx | #link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/ProjectMeeting | 21:02 |
| ttx | #topic General stuff | 21:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "General stuff (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:02 | |
| ttx | Last week we published the havana-1 milestone... went mostly OK, except a regression was missed in Heat | 21:03 |
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| ttx | which streeses again the need for more integration tests there | 21:03 |
| zaneb | we have folks working on tempest integration | 21:03 |
| ttx | #info The "I" release will be named "Icehouse" | 21:03 |
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| ttx | (not my choice) | 21:03 |
| zaneb | which will hopefully resolve a lot of those issues | 21:03 |
| jgriffit1 | Ick | 21:03 |
| jgriffit1 | haha | 21:03 |
| ttx | We'll probably skip next week's meeting, unless swift is ready to release... | 21:03 |
| notmyname | not by next week | 21:04 |
| ttx | notmyname: awesome :) | 21:04 |
| ttx | adam_g: status for 2013.1.2 stable release ? | 21:04 |
| adam_g_ | FYI! stable/grizzly branches are frozen for 2013.1.2 release this Thursday. Don't be offended if you have a -2 on your merge until branches are open. Any testing on the current stable/grizzly branches is welcome prior to release. | 21:04 |
| markmc | adam_g_, nice :) | 21:04 |
| adam_g_ | If there's anything critical that needs in 2013.1.2 please get in touch quick! | 21:04 |
| annegentle | o/ | 21:05 |
| russellb | adam_g_: there was a critical nova patch | 21:05 |
| ttx | #info If there's anything critical that needs in 2013.1.2 please get in touch with adam_g quick! | 21:05 |
| russellb | adam_g_: that i had proposed but you -2'd :-) | 21:05 |
| adam_g_ | russellb, which? | 21:05 |
| russellb | adam_g_: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/31244/ | 21:05 |
| russellb | adam_g_: regression that has billing implications | 21:05 |
| dolphm | adam_g_: i probably have one from keystone | 21:05 |
| adam_g_ | russellb, i dont think we have a formal way of requesting an exception for the stable freezes, so apologies for the -2 | 21:05 |
| dolphm | adam_g_: https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/1170649 | 21:06 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1170649 in keystone "Removing a user from a project would result to all members of that project to be removed" [Critical,In progress] | 21:06 |
| ttx | dolphm: sounds embarassing | 21:06 |
| adam_g_ | dolphm, ack, i'll take a look | 21:06 |
| dolphm | ttx: criticals always are! | 21:06 |
| russellb | people get very unhappy if they underbill customers is all, heh | 21:06 |
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| ttx | annegentle: something about docs ? | 21:07 |
| annegentle | #info Docs are now automatically generating nova.conf config options and inserting into the Compute Admin Manual manually, will get the rest of it automated. | 21:07 |
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| adam_g_ | russellb, dolphm i'll get an email to the stable list today with possible exceptions. keep an eye out | 21:08 |
| annegentle | and a new intern welcome: We have Terri Yu working on Ceiliometer with Julian Danjou (jd__) through the GNOME Outreach Program for Women, welcome terriyu! | 21:08 |
| russellb | adam_g_: cool thanks! | 21:08 |
| annegentle | ttx: that's all I've got | 21:08 |
| ttx | welcome terriyu! | 21:08 |
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| ttx | jeblair/mordred, sdague/davidkranz: news from Infra/QA teams^Wprograms ? | 21:09 |
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| jeblair | ttx: nack | 21:09 |
| ttx | ok then let's go project-specific | 21:10 |
| ttx | #topic Oslo status | 21:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Oslo status (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:10 | |
| ttx | markmc: hi! | 21:10 |
| markmc | hey | 21:10 |
| ttx | #link https://launchpad.net/oslo/+milestone/havana-2 | 21:10 |
| * markmc knows he's behind on things | 21:10 | |
| * ttx refreshes | 21:10 | |
| ttx | You've got a number of blueprints there that are missing the "havana" series goal | 21:10 |
| ttx | oslo-scheduler, oslo-sqlalchemy-utils, service-restart, common-heartbeat-driver, oslo-base-manager | 21:11 |
| ttx | The last two are also missing priority set | 21:11 |
| markmc | yeah, I only noticed them earlier | 21:11 |
| markmc | will look properly tomorrow | 21:11 |
| ttx | 14 blueprints is a bit ambitious compared to the 5 delivered in H1... | 21:11 |
| markmc | I always miss these because I never get notifications of new blueprints | 21:11 |
| ttx | There is room in H3 for deferring, fwiw. You've got 3 blueprints assigned to you, for example | 21:11 |
| markmc | ok, cool | 21:11 |
| ttx | Did you make progress unblocking trusted-messaging ? | 21:12 |
| markmc | none jump out at me as being totally unrealistic at this point | 21:12 |
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| ttx | is it still a likely H2 target ? | 21:12 |
| markmc | no, I haven't heard an update on the key distribution server work | 21:12 |
| ttx | I'd rather not announce it and get people excited if we see no way of delivering it in the current state of affairs... | 21:12 |
| markmc | yeah, I'll catch up with simo again | 21:12 |
| markmc | the oslo side of things are in pretty good shape for it | 21:13 |
| ttx | markmc: anything you wanted to raise ? | 21:13 |
| dolphm | markmc: i'm told that it's still in progress, but not ready for review | 21:13 |
| markmc | not really | 21:13 |
| markmc | bit exhausted after writing this today: http://blogs.gnome.org/markmc/2013/06/04/async-io-and-python/ | 21:13 |
| markmc | it's some investigation work for the oslo messaging work | 21:13 |
| markmc | others should find it useful too, I hope | 21:13 |
| markmc | dolphm, cool | 21:13 |
| russellb | you had a quantum thing last week, with oslo.config, can't remember details | 21:13 |
| russellb | but it affected a nova patch series, too | 21:13 |
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| russellb | that get cleared up? | 21:14 |
| markmc | nearly | 21:14 |
| markmc | very nearly | 21:14 |
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| russellb | ok cool | 21:14 |
| markmc | we need this pbr fix https://review.openstack.org/#/c/30938/ | 21:14 |
| markmc | mordred is pushing a new release asap | 21:14 |
| ttx | Other questions about Oslo ? | 21:14 |
| mordred | there's another thing I need to fix before releasing a new pbr | 21:15 |
| mordred | but yeah | 21:15 |
| markmc | ok, cool | 21:15 |
| mordred | and I tihnk that it might be a bug in a new releaes of distributer | 21:15 |
| mordred | which is making me cry | 21:15 |
| ttx | #topic Keystone status | 21:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Keystone status (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:15 | |
| ttx | dolphm: o/ | 21:16 |
| dolphm | o/ | 21:16 |
| ttx | #link https://launchpad.net/keystone/+milestone/havana-2 | 21:16 |
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| ttx | dolphm: you deferred store-quota-data ? | 21:16 |
| dolphm | i dropped https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/store-quota-data from havana altogether, as it's api-impacting and i'd like to have an api-level feature freeze at the end of m2... it doesn't look like there's much momentum behind that bp at this point | 21:17 |
| ttx | api-level feature freeze at the end of m2++ | 21:17 |
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| ttx | I think that ll looks good | 21:18 |
| dolphm | cool | 21:18 |
| ttx | dolphm: Anything more about Keystone ? | 21:18 |
| dolphm | not unless you want to hear about bugs | 21:18 |
| ttx | if you tell me about bugs I'll tell you about vulnerabilities | 21:19 |
| ttx | Questions anyone ? | 21:19 |
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| ttx | #topic Ceilometer status | 21:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Ceilometer status (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:19 | |
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| ttx | jd__: hey | 21:19 |
| jd__ | o/ | 21:19 |
| ttx | #link https://launchpad.net/ceilometer/+milestone/havana-2 | 21:19 |
| ttx | I see you've got 8 blueprints assigned to you (and Eoghan's got 3) -- feeling confident ? | 21:20 |
| jd__ | for mine, pretty | 21:20 |
| jd__ | I can't tell for others unfortunately | 21:21 |
| ttx | we'll see progress in two weeks | 21:21 |
| ttx | Plan is looking good now | 21:21 |
| ttx | jd__: anything you wanted to mention ? | 21:21 |
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| jd__ | nop | 21:22 |
| jd__ | we're good :) | 21:22 |
| ttx | Questions on Ceilometer ? | 21:22 |
| ttx | #topic Swift status | 21:22 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Swift status (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:22 | |
| ttx | notmyname: o/ | 21:23 |
| notmyname | hi | 21:23 |
| ttx | notmyname: no new release in sight yet ? | 21:23 |
| notmyname | I don't think I have anything new to report this week | 21:23 |
| notmyname | still waiting for reviews on the final patches for this release | 21:23 |
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| notmyname | but they aren't trivial (and we're all busy), so it takes a while | 21:23 |
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| ttx | notmyname: you won't want to push it especially on the week I intended to skip this meeting on :) | 21:23 |
| notmyname | heh, no. if it's not done by now, it won't be ready for release next week | 21:24 |
| ttx | ack | 21:24 |
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| ttx | will you keep the 1.8.1 numbering, or switch to 1.9.0 ? | 21:25 |
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| notmyname | probably 1.9 | 21:25 |
| ttx | yeah, given the feature set | 21:25 |
| ttx | notmyname: anything else you wanted to raise ? | 21:25 |
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| notmyname | no, I'm good | 21:25 |
| ttx | Questions about Swift ? | 21:25 |
| ttx | #topic Glance status | 21:26 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Glance status (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:26 | |
| ttx | markwash: o/ | 21:26 |
| ttx | #link https://launchpad.net/glance/+milestone/havana-2 | 21:26 |
| markwash | ttx: hi hi! | 21:26 |
| ttx | use-oslo-common-db-code was proposed to h2 @ https://blueprints.launchpad.net/glance/havana/+setgoals | 21:26 |
| markwash | thanks again for that link | 21:26 |
| markwash | I've been in discussion with boris | 21:26 |
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| ttx | ok, just confirm or deny it sometimes in the next 2 weeks | 21:27 |
| ttx | 11 blueprints sounds a bit ambitious compared to the 2 completed in H1... | 21:27 |
| ttx | but then, those are almost all assigned to different people (except two for Iccha Sethi) | 21:27 |
| ttx | and there is a bit of room in H3 in case of spillover | 21:27 |
| markwash | I expect spillover, but can't pick which will spill yet | 21:28 |
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| ttx | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/glance/+spec/membership-policy has code proposed now... should we target it to H2 too ? | 21:28 |
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| markwash | sorry, thought I had already done that. . yes (and done) | 21:29 |
| ttx | markwash: anything you wanted to mention ? | 21:29 |
| markwash | not as such | 21:29 |
| markwash | thanks! | 21:29 |
| ttx | Questions on Glance ? | 21:29 |
| markwash | oh | 21:29 |
| markwash | one thing | 21:29 |
| markwash | thanks to the swift folks for looking into ACLs updates | 21:29 |
| ttx | yeah, cross-project love | 21:30 |
| markwash | struggling to find the link right now | 21:30 |
| markwash | but it will fix one of our bugs with the multi-tenant swift store | 21:30 |
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| ttx | #topic Quantum status | 21:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Quantum status (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:30 | |
| markmcclain | hi | 21:30 |
| ttx | markmcclain: hi! | 21:30 |
| ttx | #link https://launchpad.net/quantum/+milestone/havana-2 | 21:30 |
| ttx | Yay, 49 blueprints! | 21:31 |
| markmcclain | way too many BPs for H2 | 21:31 |
| ttx | Indeed, that's a decent increase compared to the 17 which were delivered during H1 :) | 21:31 |
| ttx | There is also a bit of oversubscription with a lot of assignees having 4 to 7 blueprints assigned... | 21:31 |
| markmcclain | yeah.. h2 seemed to be a popular place to cram things in | 21:31 |
| ttx | 2 of those don't have an assignee set yet | 21:32 |
| markmcclain | oops.. I missed those 2 | 21:32 |
| markmcclain | our subteams are using this week to revise the plan to a realistic number of BPs for h2 | 21:32 |
| ttx | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/quantum/+spec/provider-router is actually not even proposed to havana | 21:33 |
| * ttx curses the series goal / milestone target LP impedence mismatch | 21:33 | |
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| ttx | markmcclain: some of them don't have the priority set too :) | 21:33 |
| markmcclain | yeah we're stilling reviewing that blueprint | 21:34 |
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| markmcclain | I'll clean up the priorities | 21:34 |
| ttx | About remove-use-of-quantum: did you send in new names ? I'd like this one to be closed as early in H2 as possible | 21:35 |
| ttx | so that we don't affect the end of milestone | 21:35 |
| ttx | and merge when the waters are calm | 21:35 |
| markmcclain | yeah.. I was waiting feedback on some of the new candidates | 21:35 |
| markmcclain | I've got a new short list to send over | 21:36 |
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| ttx | markmcclain: anything you wanted to raise ? | 21:36 |
| markmcclain | not at this time | 21:36 |
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| ttx | Questions on Quantum ? | 21:37 |
| ttx | #topic Cinder status | 21:37 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Cinder status (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:37 | |
| ttx | jgriffith: hola! | 21:37 |
| jgriffith | o/ | 21:37 |
| ttx | #link https://launchpad.net/cinder/+milestone/havana-2 | 21:37 |
| jgriffith | hmm... | 21:37 |
| ttx | OK, you win. This is the most significant increase in velocity: 2 blueprints completed in H1, 29 targeted to H2 | 21:38 |
| jgriffith | optimistic I think | 21:38 |
| ttx | Do you expect a lot of losses along the way ? | 21:38 |
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| ttx | jgriffith: For those you have no idea whether they will be completed, I think it's fine to set them to "Low" and not target them to the milestone until they are done... | 21:38 |
| jgriffith | ttx: ahh.. excellent! | 21:38 |
| jgriffith | ttx: I have a list ;) | 21:38 |
| ttx | like stuff from random teams you never heard of before | 21:38 |
| jgriffith | indeed | 21:39 |
| ttx | I /think/ that's more accurate than letting them in the milestone and praying | 21:39 |
| jgriffith | agree | 21:39 |
| jgriffith | considering many are slips from H1 anyway :) | 21:39 |
| ttx | when it's people you know it's good to have it "in", but in your case... | 21:39 |
| jgriffith | I'm not overly optimistic in their ability to deliver at this point :) | 21:39 |
| ttx | volume-host-attching, db-archiving, huawei-hvs-volume-driver need to be confirmed in the havana series goal @ https://blueprints.launchpad.net/cinder/havana/+setgoals | 21:39 |
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| jgriffith | I think I tricked ya and updated that while you were on quantum :) | 21:40 |
| ttx | oh, you cleared that | 21:40 |
| jgriffith | sneaky | 21:40 |
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| ttx | Some still need an assignee :P | 21:41 |
| jgriffith | yep | 21:41 |
| jgriffith | I'll pull those for sure | 21:41 |
| ttx | Did you make progress with avishay on splitting volume-migration ? | 21:41 |
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| jgriffith | ttx: I've spoken to him about it, but he doesn't know how he'd split it | 21:42 |
| jgriffith | ttx: we should be discussing it again tomorrow | 21:42 |
| ttx | OK. Was also wondering if db-session-cleanup and hds-hus-iscsi-cinder-driver were not completed ? You can look them up off-meeting | 21:42 |
| jgriffith | I'll see if I can help him figure out a way to clean it | 21:42 |
| jgriffith | They are | 21:42 |
| ttx | jgriffith: anything on your mind ? | 21:42 |
| jgriffith | I'm fixing that up now | 21:42 |
| jgriffith | Just having a ball :) | 21:42 |
| ttx | Questions on Cinder ? | 21:42 |
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| ttx | #topic Nova status | 21:42 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Nova status (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:42 | |
| ttx | russellb: hey | 21:42 |
| ttx | #link https://launchpad.net/nova/+milestone/havana-2 | 21:43 |
| russellb | hey | 21:43 |
| russellb | 73 blueprints ... | 21:43 |
| ttx | New world record, 73 blueprints (compared to 16 delivered in H1) | 21:43 |
| russellb | a bit insane. | 21:43 |
| ttx | That said, 10 of them are Christopher Yeoh's | 21:43 |
| russellb | yeah, v3-api work was broken up well | 21:43 |
| ttx | I suspect (hope) those are small bits | 21:43 |
| russellb | yep | 21:43 |
| ttx | And 6 of them were not in the series goal when I checked earlier: | 21:44 |
| ttx | user-locale-api, async-network-alloc, improve-vmware-disk-usage, revert-resize-force-option, encrypt-cinder-volumes, list-saving-images-through-admin-api | 21:44 |
| russellb | yeah, fixed those up at beginning of meeting | 21:44 |
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| russellb | this meeting is my reminder to do housekeeping :-/ | 21:44 |
| russellb | try to do it during the week too, but it's a lot | 21:44 |
| ttx | russellb: is it all known parties placing features in H2 ? Or more the Cinder "unknown people" case ? | 21:45 |
| russellb | so a ton of blueprints, but all with someone who has theoretically committed to doing the work | 21:45 |
| ttx | so, the former | 21:45 |
| russellb | mostly known | 21:45 |
| ttx | well, review early | 21:45 |
| * russellb nods | 21:45 | |
| ttx | russellb: anything else you wanted to mention ? | 21:45 |
| russellb | will be pushing on it every week | 21:45 |
| russellb | nope ... | 21:45 |
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| ttx | Any question on Nova ? | 21:46 |
| ttx | #topic Heat status | 21:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Heat status (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:46 | |
| zaneb | yo | 21:46 |
| ttx | zaneb: o/ | 21:46 |
| ttx | #link https://launchpad.net/heat/+milestone/havana-2 | 21:46 |
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| ttx | Do you have assignees for stack-metadata & discover-catalog-resources ? | 21:47 |
| zaneb | I think Randall was going to assign someone for those | 21:47 |
| zaneb | but he doesn't have rights to set it in launchpad | 21:47 |
| zaneb | so we'll have to check back with him whose names he wants on it | 21:47 |
| ttx | zaneb: ok... fix it in the next week, no urgency | 21:48 |
| zaneb | sorry - that's just for the stack metadata | 21:48 |
| ttx | ah | 21:48 |
| zaneb | misread the other one | 21:48 |
| zaneb | I don't think we have anyone assigned for that | 21:48 |
| ttx | if nobody signed up to do it, maybe deferring to H3 would be more realistic | 21:49 |
| zaneb | SpamapS raised it but it wasn't clear to me if he was going to work on it | 21:49 |
| ttx | maybe talk about it at next Heat meeting | 21:49 |
| ttx | Looking into heat-trusts... do we have progress on keystoneclient side yet ? | 21:49 |
| zaneb | ok, will do | 21:49 |
| ttx | dolphm: ? | 21:49 |
| ttx | "Blocked on keystoneclient support for trusts" | 21:49 |
| dolphm | ayoung: ^? | 21:49 |
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| dolphm | i'm not aware of anything in review | 21:50 |
| dolphm | i imagine ayoung would be working on trust support in keystoneclient, but haven't heard anything either way | 21:50 |
| SpamapS | I want to work on those.. | 21:51 |
| SpamapS | but they are secondary targets | 21:51 |
| ttx | dolphm: could you check and report back to zaneb or shardy ? Maybe add a comment on that blueprint whiteboard | 21:51 |
| ttx | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/heat/+spec/heat-trusts | 21:51 |
| dolphm | SpamapS: yours if you want it- https://blueprints.launchpad.net/python-keystoneclient/+spec/delegation-impersonation-support | 21:51 |
| ttx | dolphm: I think he is answering another question | 21:51 |
| dolphm | ah | 21:51 |
| zaneb | dolphm: bad luck ;) | 21:51 |
| dolphm | zaneb: +1 | 21:51 |
| ttx | #action dolphm to clarify progress on keystoneclient support for trusts and report on heat-trusts bp whiteboard | 21:52 |
| zaneb | SpamapS: I assigned you to discover-catalog-resources for now | 21:52 |
| ttx | zaneb: anything else you want to raise ? | 21:52 |
| dolphm | will do | 21:52 |
| zaneb | SpamapS: we can bump to H-3 if you want | 21:52 |
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| zaneb | ttx: nothing to report | 21:52 |
| ttx | Questions about Heat ? | 21:52 |
| ttx | #topic Horizon status | 21:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Horizon status (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:53 | |
| ttx | gabrielhurley: o/ | 21:53 |
| ttx | #link https://launchpad.net/horizon/+milestone/havana-2 | 21:53 |
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| gabrielhurley | \o | 21:53 |
| ttx | Looks good... almost realistic compared to some others ;) | 21:53 |
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| gabrielhurley | it's a bit of a jump from H1, but I polled everyone last week and nobody wanted to give up any of the ones that are left there for this cycle | 21:54 |
| ttx | there are a good number under review already | 21:54 |
| gabrielhurley | only david-lyle has more than 2 blueprints assigned | 21:54 |
| gabrielhurley | yeah | 21:54 |
| gabrielhurley | making progress | 21:54 |
| gabrielhurley | we'll see if it keeps up | 21:54 |
| ttx | ok, then we'll skip next week meeting to let you make progress uninterrupted | 21:54 |
| ttx | gabrielhurley: anything you wanted to mention ? | 21:54 |
| gabrielhurley | sounds good to me | 21:54 |
| gabrielhurley | nope | 21:55 |
| ttx | Questions on Horizon ? | 21:55 |
| ttx | #topic Incubated projects | 21:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Incubated projects (Meeting topic: project)" | 21:55 | |
| ttx | hub_cap(grapex?), devananda: around? | 21:55 |
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| ttx | If not i have canned updates I can post | 21:56 |
| ttx | #info not much news for Ironic, besides that docs.openstack.org/developer/ironic is up now, and we're still workin on everything else | 21:56 |
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| hub_cap | ttx: around | 21:57 |
| ttx | #info reddwarf chugging along w/ the h2 blueprints, still waiting for name vetting from Foundation crew | 21:57 |
| hub_cap | still no name update | 21:57 |
| hub_cap | and what u said ttx | 21:57 |
| ttx | hub_cap: any additional info or question ? | 21:57 |
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| hub_cap | ya can u prod mark to get the naming done? ;) | 21:57 |
| ttx | hub_cap: not sure my stick goes all the way to his vacation spot | 21:58 |
| hub_cap | thats my only question for now heh | 21:58 |
| hub_cap | ummmmm...... :P | 21:58 |
| hub_cap | ya we shall wait till the 10th and beyond | 21:59 |
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| ttx | hub_cap: someone else should be able to pick up the results | 21:59 |
| ttx | I'll prod | 21:59 |
| hub_cap | thx muchos | 21:59 |
| hub_cap | im liking what im seeing w/ heat fwiw | 21:59 |
| ttx | #action ttx to prod foundation staff for new name vetting for reddwarf | 21:59 |
| zaneb | \o/ | 21:59 |
| hub_cap | itll simplify installs | 21:59 |
| ttx | #topic Open discussion | 22:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: project)" | 22:00 | |
| ttx | #info No meeting next week, let's make progress and see how far we've got in two weeks | 22:00 |
| ttx | anything else anyone ? | 22:00 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 22:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings" | 22:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 4 22:01:18 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 22:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2013/project.2013-06-04-21.02.html | 22:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2013/project.2013-06-04-21.02.txt | 22:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/project/2013/project.2013-06-04-21.02.log.html | 22:01 |
| ttx | oops, one minute late | 22:01 |
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| gabrielhurley | #startmeeting horizon | 22:04 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Jun 4 22:04:24 2013 UTC. The chair is gabrielhurley. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 22:04 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 22:04 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: horizon)" | 22:04 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'horizon' | 22:04 |
| gabrielhurley | Hello Horizon people! | 22:04 |
| gabrielhurley | This one should be pretty short, I think. | 22:04 |
| david-lyle | Hello | 22:04 |
| jpich | Hello | 22:04 |
| bradjones | hey | 22:04 |
| gabrielhurley | H1 was a success, H2 is moving along. | 22:04 |
| lcheng | hello | 22:05 |
| BrooklynChen | hello | 22:05 |
| kspear | howdy | 22:05 |
| gabrielhurley | I've nominated david-lyle and lcheng for horizon core. Many of you have offered feedback there, and that's all very good. I'll give it another day or two just on principle. | 22:05 |
| gabrielhurley | Just wanted to make sure everyone was in the loop in case you missed it on the -dev mailing list | 22:06 |
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| gabrielhurley | Beyond that nothing's really changed since last week. | 22:06 |
| gabrielhurley | I've got a new intern starting here at Nebula who's eating a bunch of my attention currently, but I'm also actively engaged in Heat stuff, so hopefully we can finally get that merged in and close out that blueprint | 22:07 |
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| gabrielhurley | that's gonna be my focus this week | 22:07 |
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| gabrielhurley | I can't think of any other general announcements... | 22:08 |
| gabrielhurley | #topic blueprints and bugs | 22:08 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "blueprints and bugs (Meeting topic: horizon)" | 22:08 | |
| gabrielhurley | is meetbot ignoring me? I dunno... IRC's been flaky today. | 22:08 |
| gabrielhurley | ah. there it goes | 22:08 |
| gabrielhurley | I do have one note on bugs | 22:08 |
| gabrielhurley | I pinged dolph about the keystone regressions that showed up in Grizzly which we've been suffering from and he's gonna make sure those get fixed and backported. | 22:09 |
| gabrielhurley | specifically: | 22:09 |
| gabrielhurley | https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/1170186 | 22:09 |
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| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1170186 in horizon "Unscoped tokens are revoked when assigning a role to a user" [High,Confirmed] | 22:09 |
| gabrielhurley | https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/1161963 | 22:09 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1161963 in keystone "Editing User fails when the user already has a Primary Project" [Medium,In progress] | 22:09 |
| gabrielhurley | and https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/1170649 | 22:09 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1170649 in keystone "Removing a user from a project would result to all members of that project to be removed" [Critical,In progress] | 22:09 |
| gabrielhurley | so that's good news on those | 22:10 |
| gabrielhurley | anyone else have updates they'd like to give on blueprints (or bugs)? | 22:10 |
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| david-lyle | https://bugs.launchpad.net/horizon/+bug/1186379 question | 22:11 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1186379 in horizon "url_for() function needs refactoring of admin flag" [Undecided,Confirmed] | 22:11 |
| lcheng | gabrielhurley: dolph remove the token revocation call when adding roles to user. That is merged. | 22:11 |
| BrooklynChen | the ceilometer bp https://blueprints.launchpad.net/horizon/+spec/ceilometer | 22:11 |
| lcheng | However, adding/removing users to group still revokes the token. https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/1187359 | 22:11 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1187359 in keystone "Tokens are revoked when assigning a role to a group" [Medium,Confirmed] | 22:11 |
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| gabrielhurley | lemme go one at a time there | 22:13 |
| gabrielhurley | david-lyle: what's the question about that bug? | 22:13 |
| david-lyle | the submitter would like the option to attempt a fallback endpoint_type, specifically because so many api calls require adminURL, they would like that as the default in settings and then have the option to fallback to public. Are there any string objections to having a fallback setting as well handled in url_for? | 22:13 |
| gabrielhurley | I'd like to maintain the current behavior in the default case, but otherwise I'm fine with refactoring that code | 22:14 |
| gabrielhurley | how it arrives at that default behavior can be improved, I'm sure | 22:14 |
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| david-lyle | yes, purely settings driven changes and some logic around those | 22:14 |
| gabrielhurley | yep | 22:14 |
| david-lyle | also want to get rid of the admin param as it's not used anywhere and complicates the logic | 22:15 |
| gabrielhurley | marked it as H2 | 22:15 |
| david-lyle | thanks! | 22:15 |
| gabrielhurley | lcheng: hopefully that bug will also get fixed and backported. feel free to ping dolph about it. he's a nice guy. | 22:15 |
| gabrielhurley | BrooklynChen: I've been meaning to look at the ceilometer code you posted, but I haven't had a chance. perhaps you can try to work with some of the other core folks to get some eyes on it. | 22:16 |
| gabrielhurley | kspear, jpich, mrunge: any interest in following up with BrooklynChen about ceilometer? | 22:16 |
| BrooklynChen | gabrielhurley: ok. | 22:17 |
| lcheng | Okay. Btw, I've implemented the v3 auth for keystoneclient. It is up for review: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/21942/ After that get merged, I can go back on domain login support. | 22:17 |
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| gabrielhurley | lcheng: yep, I actually happened to see that this morning | 22:17 |
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| BrooklynChen | gabrielhurley: some questions about the bp. do we need to export charts to pdf? it will introduce other python lib | 22:17 |
| gabrielhurley | I'd really rather avoid that, actually | 22:18 |
| gabrielhurley | I'm not a fan of reportlab | 22:19 |
| jpich | So, is the idea to go with the separate ceilometer dashboard until we can implement the other "integrated" approach that seemed favoured during the summit? | 22:19 |
| gabrielhurley | there's another project called PyPDF which is newer that I haven't tried | 22:19 |
| gabrielhurley | but I'd like to just leave that out for now | 22:19 |
| BrooklynChen | gabrielhurley: okay. I agree with you. | 22:19 |
| gabrielhurley | jpich: to be honest I was hoping we could perhaps go straight to integrating things, but this code is here and it's worth evaluating | 22:19 |
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| BrooklynChen | that's developed by yolanda. | 22:20 |
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| BrooklynChen | another question. we need to choose date period for chats, it may need a datepicker js plugin. | 22:20 |
| jpich | gabrielhurley: Fair enough. I'll try to make the time to have a look | 22:21 |
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| jpich | BrooklynChen: There was an (unmerged) review by vkmc that meant to introduced a bootstrap date picker, maybe worth investigating | 22:23 |
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| BrooklynChen | jpich: great | 22:23 |
| jpich | BrooklynChen: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/22471/ http://www.eyecon.ro/bootstrap-datepicker/ -- I think vkmc looked at multiple ones and this one the most lightweight that does the job | 22:23 |
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| BrooklynChen | so we decide to integrate the ceilometer panel into the overview? I will do that and move the usage tables to the overview page. any idea about the chart? | 22:25 |
| gabrielhurley | jpich: thanks | 22:25 |
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| gabrielhurley | BrooklynChen: nothing explicit. we've got d3.js in horizon now, so building from there is the way to go. bradjones can probably be of assistance | 22:26 |
| bradjones | yeah I can help out with d3 | 22:27 |
| BrooklynChen | bradjones: thanks. :) | 22:27 |
| gabrielhurley | awesome | 22:28 |
| gabrielhurley | :-) | 22:28 |
| gabrielhurley | I love teamwork | 22:28 |
| gabrielhurley | #topic open discussion | 22:28 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: horizon)" | 22:28 | |
| gabrielhurley | questions on anything from other folks? | 22:28 |
| ayoung | sorry just saw that I was pinged. It was my understanding that the Heat team was working on the keystoneclient support for trusts since they needed it | 22:29 |
| gabrielhurley | uh... that was the previous meeting ayoung | 22:29 |
| ayoung | Hah | 22:29 |
| gabrielhurley | lol | 22:29 |
| gabrielhurley | but good to know | 22:29 |
| gabrielhurley | I *was* actually wondering about that | 22:29 |
| david-lyle | there have been a couple cases where the wrong django-compressor version has broken master, does anyone have a good idea as to how to include a javascript sanity test into the gate jobs? | 22:29 |
| jpich | Selenium to the rescue? | 22:30 |
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| gabrielhurley | two options: include a test that runs the django manage.py compress command and verifies the success of it, or write a selenium test that checks it | 22:30 |
| gabrielhurley | I prefer the latter (selenium) personally | 22:31 |
| david-lyle | it would be a nice addition | 22:31 |
| gabrielhurley | yeah, certainly wouldn't hurt | 22:33 |
| gabrielhurley | Last call on questions/comments before I wrap the meeting.... | 22:33 |
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| david-lyle | if anyone has time I'd love feedback on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/28855/ | 22:36 |
| bradjones | BrooklynChen: ping me offline let me know what I can do to help out with celiometer bp | 22:37 |
| BrooklynChen | bradjones: I will. | 22:37 |
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| kspear | #endmeeting | 22:46 |
| gabrielhurley | I keep forgetting to officially end these meetings | 22:46 |
| gabrielhurley | #endmeeting | 22:46 |
| kspear | haha | 22:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings" | 22:46 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Jun 4 22:46:27 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 22:46 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-06-04-22.04.html | 22:46 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-06-04-22.04.txt | 22:46 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2013/horizon.2013-06-04-22.04.log.html | 22:46 |
| gabrielhurley | thanks kspear ;-) | 22:46 |
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| kspear | have a good week :) | 22:46 |
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