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| barruf | hi | 15:04 |
|---|---|---|
| barruf | no one? | 15:05 |
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| barruf | http://ced85.wordpress.com | 15:12 |
| barruf | if someone is getting bored like me... | 15:12 |
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| barruf | nice to see | 15:13 |
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| barruf | hi | 15:15 |
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| barruf | anyone is gettign bored? | 15:16 |
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| barruf | and enjoys to see some paints? | 15:17 |
| barruf | http://ced85.wordpress.com | 15:17 |
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| jgriffith | I see most cinder folks lurking already :) | 15:59 |
| * DuncanT tries not to look suspicious | 15:59 | |
| jgriffith | #startmeeting cinder | 16:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Jan 23 16:00:01 2013 UTC. The chair is jgriffith. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:00 |
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| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'cinder' | 16:00 |
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| jgriffith | Looks like we're missing winston and thingee... | 16:00 |
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| jgriffith | DuncanT: Do you want to start or would you prefer to wait for Winston and Mike? | 16:00 |
| jgriffith | hmmm.... | 16:01 |
| DuncanT | I can start... if you think they'll have opinions then I can postpone til they turn up | 16:01 |
| jgriffith | Fair | 16:01 |
| jgriffith | #topic snapshots and backups etc etc | 16:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "snapshots and backups etc etc (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 16:01 | |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: How's that for a segway :) | 16:01 |
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| JM1 | hi | 16:01 |
| DuncanT | So my first question is snapshots and their lifecycle .v. the volume they came from (and go to) | 16:02 |
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| * jgriffith ducks... this always gets messy :) | 16:02 | |
| DuncanT | At the moment, if you create vol1, snap it to snap1, delete vol1 then try to clone snap1, badness happens | 16:02 |
| jgriffith | Actually right now you can't do that | 16:02 |
| DuncanT | It doesn't appear to stop me | 16:03 |
| JM1 | the vol delete command complains that the vol is in use | 16:03 |
| rushiagr1 | jgriffith: exactly, you arent alowd to delete vol if snap exist, i guess | 16:03 |
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| jgriffith | You shouldn't be able to | 16:03 |
| jgriffith | If you can that's a bug | 16:03 |
| jgriffith | LVM will have a fit | 16:03 |
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| DuncanT | Oh, maybe I've too many hacks in there, I'll try again on devstack later | 16:03 |
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| jgriffith | DuncanT: If it does, file a bug :) | 16:04 |
| DuncanT | I want to be able to, either way | 16:04 |
| jgriffith | errr.... I knew you were going to say that | 16:04 |
| jgriffith | I just don't understand the big advantage of this | 16:04 |
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| guitarzan | jgriffith: we want to be able to as well | 16:05 |
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| guitarzan | :) | 16:05 |
| DuncanT | Customers who pay for disk space | 16:05 |
| jgriffith | Especially once we get backup to swift or xxxx in | 16:05 |
| bswartz | I'm here | 16:05 |
| * jgriffith is always in the minority! | 16:05 | |
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| guitarzan | history, snapshots aren't snapshots, they're backups | 16:05 |
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| guitarzan | but that's another topic | 16:05 |
| DuncanT | If you want to keep a golden image around for fast instance creation, you probably don't want to pay for the space twice | 16:05 |
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| xyang_ | I don't think you should delete vol when it has a snapshot | 16:05 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: sure, so do a clone | 16:05 |
| DuncanT | You /could/ use a backup, but they are slow | 16:06 |
| jgriffith | :) | 16:06 |
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| jgriffith | Not as slow as LVM snapshots :) | 16:06 |
| DuncanT | I'm not running LVM ;-) | 16:06 |
| smulcahy | we also allow the creation of volumes from volumes (is that what people mean by a clone?) | 16:06 |
| jgriffith | smulcahy: yup | 16:06 |
| DuncanT | smulcahy: That is the new clone interface, yes | 16:06 |
| jgriffith | Ok, seems I'm finally going to have to give in on this one | 16:07 |
| DuncanT | Clone is a possibility, but I don't see a strong reason for the limitations of snapshots, beyond LVM suckage | 16:07 |
| bvibhu | How about -force option? As long as the user knows what he/she is doing. | 16:07 |
| DuncanT | (and it works on amazon) | 16:08 |
| jgriffith | but I still say it has to be consistent behavior for ALL drivers | 16:08 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: Well I agree to a point | 16:08 |
| jgriffith | but really tht was the WHOLE reason I did clones | 16:08 |
| DuncanT | Should need to be a force option | 16:08 |
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| DuncanT | Shouldn't. rather | 16:08 |
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| guitarzan | I think volume->snap dependency is completely driver dependent | 16:09 |
| DuncanT | clones loose the read-only-ness though | 16:09 |
| Navneet | Hello every one...I am Navneet from NetApp | 16:09 |
| jgriffith | guitarzan: yes, it is but I want that dependency abstracted out | 16:09 |
| bswartz | hi navneet | 16:09 |
| guitarzan | abstracted out? | 16:09 |
| guitarzan | how so? | 16:09 |
| guitarzan | morning Navneet | 16:09 |
| JM1 | I agree with DuncanT that immutability of a snap is an important property | 16:09 |
| bswartz | jgriffith: how about making snapshot dependency on volumes a driver capability that can be reported back? | 16:10 |
| Navneet | bswartz: hi ben | 16:10 |
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| jgriffith | In terms of I don't want our api to be "if this back-end you can do this, if that back-end you can do that" | 16:10 |
| JM1 | when then entity is immutable, you know precisely the stat of your golden image | 16:10 |
| JM1 | state* | 16:10 |
| Navneet | good morning huitarzan | 16:10 |
| DuncanT | bswartz: driver capability reporting is another subject I'd like to bring up ;-) | 16:10 |
| guitarzan | jgriffith: but it already is | 16:10 |
| guitarzan | our driver doesn't support clone | 16:10 |
| guitarzan | someone elses does | 16:10 |
| jgriffith | Right but where this is going I tihnk somebody is going to suggest changing that :) | 16:10 |
| DuncanT | clone is not (yet) supported by most drivers | 16:11 |
| guitarzan | but you can't force me to implement it | 16:11 |
| jgriffith | ala "allow delete volumes with snaps on *some* back-ends" | 16:11 |
| xyang_ | we support it | 16:11 |
| guitarzan | I guess I don't see the problem | 16:11 |
| bswartz | jgriffith: it sounds like you're arguing for homogeneity and against driver capabilities | 16:11 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: +1 | 16:11 |
| JM1 | what if generic code supported some form of refcounting? | 16:12 |
| jgriffith | at least in the core api calls | 16:12 |
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| bswartz | the downside with homogeneity is that it impedes progress | 16:12 |
| DuncanT | We were talking about what the minimum feature set for a driver to be accepted is last week | 16:12 |
| guitarzan | if uncle rackspace decides that it really wants independent snapshots (and our customers definitely do) I'd have to just fork/patch cinder api to allow it | 16:12 |
| JM1 | I mean, one could mark a volume for deletion, and space could be reclaimed when possible, depending on the driver capabilities | 16:13 |
| DuncanT | Same. We already support it (viz a bug found last week) on hpcloud | 16:13 |
| jgriffith | alright, I'm going to loose this debate so no use continuing | 16:13 |
| JM1 | either immediately, or when the last snap is deleted | 16:13 |
| jgriffith | We can go that route if folks would like | 16:13 |
| jgriffith | I still don't like it, and don't understand WTF we have clones for then | 16:13 |
| guitarzan | well, I'm just saying that the product specifies the features | 16:13 |
| jgriffith | Sorry for the language, I think when it acronyms it's ok though right? :) | 16:14 |
| guitarzan | yes :) | 16:14 |
| DuncanT | jgriffith: If we do read-only volumes in future, we can redo most of the snapshot capabilites with them | 16:14 |
| bswartz | jgriffith: clones can be faster/more efficient that snapshot+create_vol_from_snapshot | 16:14 |
| jgriffith | guitarzan: Sure, but how is that communicated to the end user? | 16:14 |
| guitarzan | in our product documentation | 16:14 |
| JM1 | jgriffith: I thought clones were cheap writable copies of a volume, while snaps were cheap immutable copies | 16:14 |
| guitarzan | openstack is just a means to an end | 16:14 |
| jgriffith | The end user shoudln't know aything about what the back-end is | 16:14 |
| jgriffith | JM1: yes | 16:14 |
| DuncanT | I agree that, in order for this feature to be merged, it should be made to work on the the LVM backend (at a minimum) in some sensible manner | 16:15 |
| winston-d_ | JM1: i like your definition | 16:15 |
| jgriffith | guitarzan: DuncanT or are you suggesting it's a global config and admin beware if they're back-end supports it or not? | 16:15 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: Yeah, that can be done | 16:15 |
| DuncanT | jgriffith: I'd like the drivers to report it, ideally, rather than needing flags, but yeah | 16:16 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: but that's what I don't like | 16:16 |
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| guitarzan | I'm ok with either choice | 16:16 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: So if some provider has multiple back-ends | 16:16 |
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| jgriffith | one supports it and one doesnt | 16:16 |
| avishay | hi sorry im late | 16:16 |
| jgriffith | how does the user know what to expect? | 16:16 |
| jgriffith | The end user that is | 16:16 |
| guitarzan | that's certainly a complication | 16:16 |
| xyang_ | I prefer drivers to report it | 16:16 |
| jgriffith | Just run it and see if it fails | 16:16 |
| DuncanT | jgriffith: Ideally I'd make LVM able to do create-from-snap-of-deleted-volume by some manner | 16:16 |
| DuncanT | jgriffith: Possibly by doing some clone magic behind the scenes | 16:17 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: Sure, but back up to my issue with different back-ends having different behavior | 16:17 |
| DuncanT | jgriffith: I can't do that for all backends though | 16:17 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: right | 16:17 |
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| DuncanT | We already have that with clone; | 16:17 |
| jgriffith | Ok, we're on the same page | 16:17 |
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| jgriffith | haha!!!! | 16:18 |
| DuncanT | If I use e.g. solidfire and bock, one supports clone, one doesn't | 16:18 |
| jgriffith | Well get clones added to bock already :) | 16:18 |
| Navneet | if every backend uses clone it can be done | 16:18 |
| DuncanT | It's on the list | 16:18 |
| jgriffith | There.. problem solved :) | 16:18 |
| xyang_ | we shouldn't force all drivers to support delete vol with snapshot | 16:18 |
| DuncanT | But going forward, some drivers will always lag others | 16:18 |
| DuncanT | It is going to happen the minute you add a new feature to the driver | 16:19 |
| DuncanT | Some mechanism to manage that seems sensible | 16:19 |
| JM1 | then you could have a slow fallback strategy for said new feature | 16:19 |
| xyang_ | clone support is different. If it is not supported by a driver, mark it not implemented. | 16:19 |
| xyang_ | for the force flag to work, that's is very specific. | 16:19 |
| DuncanT | And since some drivers have different abilities (like snap/clone/delete not needing to be run on the volume node 'owning' the volume), a using the same mechanism to express capabilities would be ncie | 16:20 |
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| jgriffith | DuncanT: sure but major things like "deleting" a volume should work the same always IMO | 16:20 |
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| jgriffith | I just think it's bad user experience to sometimes be able to delete a volume and sometimes not and never knowing why | 16:21 |
| DuncanT | The advantage of a driver expressing capabilities means you can test in API and give back a sensible error message, rather than silent failure like you get with raise NotImplementedException | 16:21 |
| jgriffith | Just give your customers free or cheap snaps, you're not using any real space anyway :) | 16:21 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: Sure but the end user doesn't see that | 16:21 |
| guitarzan | but the volume is expensive, and they don't want it anymore! | 16:22 |
| avishay | what's the use case for this feature anyway? | 16:22 |
| jgriffith | The end user just knows this volume can delete, but this one can't | 16:22 |
| JM1 | if you have cheap snaps, the cost of keeping the volume around should be low | 16:22 |
| jgriffith | guitarzan: I know.. I hear ya | 16:22 |
| DuncanT | jgriffith: If we add a get_capabilites call to the driver, the API can give some explaination why, rather than silent failure | 16:22 |
| jgriffith | Like I said, you guys are going to win on this, I'm just saying there's a major concern IMO | 16:22 |
| JM1 | DuncanT: that can make higher-level automation tedious | 16:23 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: I understand that | 16:23 |
| DuncanT | JM1: Silent failures make it worse! | 16:23 |
| guitarzan | JM1: how so? | 16:23 |
| JM1 | DuncanT: I never pushed for silent failures :) | 16:23 |
| guitarzan | we're not giving our customers much credit here... they're going to know what product they're buying | 16:23 |
| xyang_ | are we talking about a force flag in clone volume or delete volume? that is different | 16:23 |
| jgriffith | xyang_: that's diff | 16:24 |
| jgriffith | xyang_: We're talking about being able to delete a vol that has a snap on "some" back-ends that support it | 16:24 |
| * jgriffith thinks it needs to be all or nothing | 16:24 | |
| DuncanT | I'd like to push towards fixing up all drivers to support the facility where possible, just like clone, but having a mechanism to express to the user where that hasn't been done yet / is impossible is also good to have | 16:24 |
| xyang_ | a force flag in delete volume makes sense | 16:24 |
| DuncanT | force flag is meaningless though | 16:25 |
| jgriffith | xyang_: We have a force flag | 16:25 |
| JM1 | guitarzan: well what if you mix different backends? I think it's planned | 16:25 |
| jgriffith | and it doesn't have anything to do with the problem here | 16:25 |
| xyang_ | ok | 16:25 |
| DuncanT | If your backend doesn't support it, what is --force supposed to do? | 16:25 |
| guitarzan | JM1: I personally think that's less likely than others seem to think | 16:25 |
| guitarzan | DuncanT: silently fail! | 16:25 |
| DuncanT | guitarzan: Silent failures bad. Worse than just about anything else IMO | 16:25 |
| guitarzan | sorry, couldn't help it :) | 16:26 |
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| guitarzan | anyway, this horse is dead | 16:26 |
| DuncanT | I'll code up a concrete patch and get comments then, I think | 16:26 |
| DuncanT | It sounds like at least some people agree with me | 16:26 |
| guitarzan | DuncanT: excellent, I'd like to see it | 16:26 |
| jgriffith | haha | 16:26 |
| jgriffith | guitarzan: dead horses | 16:27 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: Just for the record, I don't disagreee with you, I just don't like different behaviors | 16:27 |
| DuncanT | You've heard about our burgers, right? We can make good use of dead horses | 16:27 |
| jgriffith | but alas, I'll approve the patch | 16:27 |
| jgriffith | hey now... remember who you're talking to | 16:28 |
| jgriffith | :) | 16:28 |
| jgriffith | Us horsey people are funy about that sort of thing | 16:28 |
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| DuncanT | jgriffith: I'll try to fix up can't-do-clone error reporting in the same patch | 16:28 |
| DuncanT | Talk to Tesco about the horses, not me | 16:28 |
| JM1 | ah, horse breeders vs. horse eaters, always funny to watch :) | 16:28 |
| jgriffith | haha | 16:29 |
| Navneet | :) | 16:29 |
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| jgriffith | Ok... DuncanT I think you had another topic? | 16:29 |
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| DuncanT | Capability reporting, but I think that will fall out in the same patch then get extended... | 16:30 |
| DuncanT | Multi AZ was my next one | 16:30 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: I would prefer it's a seperate patch | 16:30 |
| winston-d_ | jgriffith: +1 | 16:30 |
| DuncanT | jgriffith: Sure, ok, same patch series | 16:30 |
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| jgriffith | sure | 16:30 |
| jgriffith | Plans to expose that as an admin extension? | 16:30 |
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| jgriffith | I'm assuming we don't want it customer visible | 16:31 |
| DuncanT | Indeed | 16:31 |
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| jgriffith | righty oh then | 16:31 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: anything else? | 16:31 |
| DuncanT | Multi-AZ | 16:31 |
| jgriffith | #topic multi-az | 16:32 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "multi-az (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 16:32 | |
| DuncanT | Is anybody else doing it? | 16:32 |
| jgriffith | So I have a blue print | 16:32 |
| jgriffith | I'm going to have to look at sooner rather than later | 16:32 |
| jgriffith | We have to do it really else ec2 is going to be broken | 16:32 |
| guitarzan | link? | 16:32 |
| jgriffith | Nova put it in via aggregates | 16:32 |
| DuncanT | Question 1) Should cross-az volume mounting work? | 16:33 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: I don't think EC2 allows it, no | 16:33 |
| DuncanT | (Nova's AZ support is broken in places - this is being looked at) | 16:33 |
| jgriffith | guitarzan: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/cinder/+spec/aggregates-in-cinder | 16:33 |
| DuncanT | Good, because as ideas go, allowing it sucks ;-) | 16:34 |
| jgriffith | Not much there yet | 16:34 |
| jgriffith | hehe | 16:34 |
| guitarzan | cool, thanks | 16:34 |
| jgriffith | Everybody feel free to provide input on this one | 16:34 |
| jgriffith | I'm getting a handle on AZ and now aggregates but honestly I dislike all of the above :) | 16:34 |
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| jgriffith | Not in on a philosophical or implementation level or anything, I just find it a bit tedious :) | 16:35 |
| DuncanT | Syncronising the default AZ in nova with the default AZ in cinder, particularly if you want that to vary per tenant for load ballancing, is an issue, though probably not a major one (e.g. let keystone pick it) | 16:35 |
| winston-d_ | jgriffith: could you elaborate a little bit on this BP? | 16:35 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: That's actually the point of that BP | 16:35 |
| jgriffith | winston-d_: sure | 16:35 |
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| jgriffith | As DuncanT just pointed out AZ's between Nova and Cinder need to be synched | 16:36 |
| jgriffith | In other words instance and volume have to be in same AZ for attach to work | 16:36 |
| winston-d_ | right | 16:36 |
| jgriffith | We cheated before and just said, admin set the AZ | 16:36 |
| jgriffith | But now it's not going ot be quite so simple | 16:36 |
| jgriffith | The changes in Nova will allow aggreagates, which results in multiple AZ's for a single node | 16:37 |
| jgriffith | in essence | 16:37 |
| jgriffith | Also, it's now a bit dynamic | 16:37 |
| xyang_ | what about cells? How does cells affect this? | 16:37 |
| jgriffith | well, not a *bit*, it is | 16:37 |
| jgriffith | cells are different, and I have chosen to ignore them :) | 16:37 |
| guitarzan | cells shouldn't make much difference I think | 16:37 |
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| winston-d_ | xyang_: i don't think so. cell is transparent to end-users | 16:37 |
| JM1 | storage location isn't very dynamic by nature | 16:38 |
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| jgriffith | JM1: well yes and no | 16:38 |
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| jgriffith | JM1: You may start with an AZ based on a data center, then break it down to racks | 16:38 |
| jgriffith | then break it down to PDU's | 16:38 |
| jgriffith | etc etc | 16:38 |
| JM1 | do people expect such small AZ ? | 16:39 |
| jgriffith | although folks like guitarzan and DuncanT would have better use case descriptions than I | 16:39 |
| winston-d_ | jgriffith: so you want cinder to be able to support aggreagates? | 16:39 |
| jgriffith | they actually deal with this stuff on a daily basis :) | 16:39 |
| jgriffith | winston-d_: correct | 16:39 |
| bswartz | In my experience, AZs for storage never get smaller than a rack -- usually a group of racks | 16:39 |
| jgriffith | winston-d_: I think it's goint o have to | 16:39 |
| jgriffith | to | 16:39 |
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| DuncanT | So we have 3 AZs in a datacenter, each in their open fire-cell and independant core switching etc | 16:40 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: Yeah, but doesn't the netapp cluster take up an entire rack :) | 16:40 |
| DuncanT | s/open/own/ | 16:40 |
| bswartz | jgriffith: lol | 16:40 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: :) | 16:40 |
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| jgriffith | So DuncanT does this line up with what you were wanting to talk about | 16:40 |
| JM1 | so even with small AZ, data is either here or there, and has to move somehow | 16:41 |
| JM1 | it's still not very dynamic I think | 16:41 |
| jgriffith | JM1: the dynamic piece is the ability to create/change names at any time | 16:41 |
| DuncanT | jgriffith: Yes, though I'm not yet massively familiar with agrigates .v. cells .v. azs - I can grab a nova person and get them to educate me though | 16:41 |
| DuncanT | jgriffith: It sounds like you're heading in the same general direction though, which is good | 16:42 |
| JM1 | jgriffith: ah ok, that sounds more realistic | 16:42 |
| winston-d_ | DuncanT: so what is your use cases for multiple-AZ? | 16:42 |
| jgriffith | Basicly just making sure we can sync with Nova and not break | 16:42 |
| jgriffith | sorry.. that was for DuncanT regarding my direction | 16:42 |
| DuncanT | winston-d_: Multiple firecells within a datacentre... scalability beyond a few hundred compute nodes | 16:42 |
| DuncanT | jgriffith: Yeah, but we're also evolving nova at the same time ;-) | 16:43 |
| guitarzan | and as an aside, I don't think rackspace uses AZs | 16:43 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: Yeah, that's the problem :) | 16:43 |
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| jgriffith | guitarzan: oh... really? | 16:43 |
| guitarzan | we just use cells to scale out, and regions for datacenters | 16:43 |
| jgriffith | Yay! | 16:43 |
| DuncanT | Can you connect storage across cells? | 16:43 |
| winston-d_ | DuncanT: yes, that i can understand. | 16:43 |
| jgriffith | well... doesn't the region coorelate to an AZ? | 16:43 |
| guitarzan | DuncanT: yes | 16:43 |
| guitarzan | jgriffith: I don't know, maybe? | 16:43 |
| jgriffith | guitarzan: isn't cells really just a tag? | 16:43 |
| jgriffith | ie metadata | 16:44 |
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| DuncanT | So our idea with multiple AZs in a region/datacentre is that if one goes down, the other is pretty much independant | 16:44 |
| guitarzan | it's passing messages through different queues | 16:44 |
| guitarzan | but you'll have to talk to comstud to find out what all it entails :) | 16:44 |
| winston-d_ | jgriffith: no, my understanding is cell is a small cloud with almost everything: API/DB/scheduler/ComputeNodes | 16:44 |
| jgriffith | winston-d_: haha.. that's what I thought of as an AZ :) | 16:45 |
| JM1 | DuncanT: isn't that a region within a region? | 16:45 |
| guitarzan | winston-d_: api calls tend to go to the parent cell | 16:45 |
| jgriffith | alright, Ithink we're all going to get much smarter on cells and AZ's in the coming weeks | 16:45 |
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| winston-d_ | guitarzan: that's right, but as i said, cell is transparent to end users. | 16:45 |
| guitarzan | yep | 16:45 |
| jgriffith | Anything else on the topic of AZ's, cells etc? | 16:45 |
| DuncanT | JM1: Pretty much, currently each of our AZs has its own set of endpoints, which we don't really like | 16:45 |
| xyang_ | and a child cell can have its own child cell | 16:45 |
| jgriffith | #topic G3 | 16:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "G3 (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 16:46 | |
| DuncanT | jgriffith: I'll probably have more in future, for now I need to get reading up on nova approaches a bit more | 16:46 |
| jgriffith | DuncanT: sounds like we all need to do that homework | 16:46 |
| jgriffith | :) | 16:46 |
| jgriffith | I've updated the G3 targets again | 16:47 |
| jgriffith | https://launchpad.net/cinder/+milestone/grizzly-3 | 16:47 |
| jgriffith | There's an awful lot going on again :) | 16:47 |
| jgriffith | Big chunk of it is new drivers | 16:47 |
| JM1 | sorry :) | 16:47 |
| jgriffith | :) | 16:48 |
| rushiagr1 | jgriffith: need to add cinder protocol enhancements aka 'nas as service' | 16:48 |
| avishay | I'll probably have another small driver + driver update for new API and bug fixes | 16:48 |
| jgriffith | rushiagr1: the BP is there, we can target it if you think you'll have something in the next couple weeks | 16:48 |
| bswartz | rushiagr1: +1 | 16:48 |
| jgriffith | How are things going on that BTW? | 16:49 |
| jgriffith | Haven't heard anything in a bit | 16:49 |
| bswartz | jgriffith: we're aiming to be COMPLETE on 2/14 with some WIP submitted before then | 16:49 |
| jgriffith | 2/14 with some WIP? | 16:49 |
| jgriffith | Cutting it kinda close for a large change isn't it? | 16:49 |
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| jgriffith | bswartz: that sounds good if you guys can hit it | 16:50 |
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| bswartz | jgriffith: you yourself said a week before the milestone would be okay as long as the overlap with existing code was minimized | 16:50 |
| rushiagr1 | jgriffith: a WIP version before 2/14 | 16:50 |
| bswartz | we're doing the best we can to make it available before then | 16:50 |
| jgriffith | That was when the milestone was G2 :) | 16:50 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: I hear ya | 16:50 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: I think that's fine | 16:50 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: I'm just saying be kind to us | 16:50 |
| jgriffith | I've got patches that are only in the teens in terms of lines | 16:51 |
| jgriffith | folks haven't been able to review them in a wekk | 16:51 |
| jgriffith | week | 16:51 |
| kmartin | jgriffith: Still waiting for some core nova reviewers(russellb and/or vishy) to look at the FC nova changes https://review.openstack.org/#/c/19992/ only one review since we put the review in on Jan 17th | 16:51 |
| jgriffith | Your patch is going to be significantly larger :) | 16:51 |
| Navneet | we have also submitted NetApp direct drivers for review | 16:51 |
| bswartz | we'll help out with reviews from our side | 16:51 |
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| jgriffith | Navneet: Yeah, I'm working on that one | 16:52 |
| bswartz | Navneet: are those done or going to be revised once more? | 16:52 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: how about helping with reviews that are non-netapp? | 16:52 |
| bswartz | jgriffith: absolutely | 16:52 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: awesome | 16:52 |
| jgriffith | ok.. that all sounds good | 16:52 |
| jgriffith | I'm looking forward to what you guys came up with | 16:52 |
| rushiagr1 | jgriffith: I would be there for reviews too.. Sorry, wasnt able to dedicate time in this first half of this week | 16:52 |
| Navneet | jgrifith: thats final from us...it contaons clone vol and filter scheduler related capabilities | 16:52 |
| bswartz | Navneet, rushiagr1: please review stuff from https://launchpad.net/cinder/+milestone/grizzly-3 | 16:52 |
| jgriffith | remember, if you can share the source before review even better | 16:52 |
| esker | jgriffith: we're absolutely interested in doing so | 16:52 |
| jgriffith | ie github or draft etc | 16:53 |
| jgriffith | bswartz: Navneet rushiagr1 actually if you could just poke around here: https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+cinder,n,z | 16:53 |
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| jgriffith | esker: cool.. thanks | 16:53 |
| jgriffith | We can use all the review help we can get | 16:54 |
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| winston-d_ | jgriffith: hasn't been doing reviews lately, will catch up | 16:54 |
| Navneet | ok | 16:54 |
| avishay | kmartin: when do we get the cinder FC patches? is it waiting on nova getting merged? | 16:54 |
| jgriffith | That link I gave shows all open cinder patches | 16:54 |
| jgriffith | and dont' forget there are cinderclient patches too :) | 16:54 |
| kmartin | avishay: yes, that was the plan | 16:55 |
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| avishay | kmartin: ok thanks | 16:55 |
| jgriffith | Ok folks, we've got 5 minutes til the other John kicks us out :) | 16:55 |
| jgriffith | #topic open discussion | 16:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 16:55 | |
| kmartin | Can winston-d give an update on the volume stats changes that we talked about last week? | 16:55 |
| rushiagr1 | jgriffith: sure. Would take some more time before I start cinderclient reviews | 16:55 |
| jgriffith | winston-d_: ^^ | 16:55 |
| Navneet | jgrifith: the latest submit from us is large in size...if we can get review comments soon to get it in...request | 16:56 |
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| winston-d_ | kmartin: i'm working on RetryFilter, should be able to submit this week. by then the scheduler is able to handle those 3 cases we talked about last week. | 16:57 |
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| kmartin | winston-d_: thanks. | 16:57 |
| jgriffith | winston-d_: speaking of which, any chance you can throw out some info on how to configure the fitlers, and how we might do custom filters in the future? | 16:57 |
| jgriffith | Also how to set up back-end filter :) | 16:57 |
| jgriffith | maybe a wiki? | 16:58 |
| jgriffith | design theory, control flow type thing? | 16:58 |
| winston-d_ | jgriffith: sure. my document plan is pending, i have something already but not complete yet. | 16:58 |
| jgriffith | winston-d_: Ok, great! | 16:58 |
| jgriffith | alright.. anybody else have anything? | 16:58 |
| jgriffith | we've got two minutes :) | 16:59 |
| jgriffith | DOH one minute | 16:59 |
| smulcahy | When you send a request to cinder, it returns a unique request id - presumably for support/diagnostics | 16:59 |
| smulcahy | this is currently called X-Compute-Request-Id | 16:59 |
| smulcahy | should it be called something else? | 16:59 |
| winston-d_ | jgriffith: sure. if you like i can even do a session for filter/weigh development in next summit. :) | 16:59 |
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| jgriffith | winston-d_: +1 | 16:59 |
| jgriffith | winston-d_: fantastic idea! | 16:59 |
| avishay | jgriffith: any thoughts on safely disconnecting iscsi connections w/ multiple LUNs/target? | 16:59 |
| smulcahy | and currently there is v little diff between /volumes and /volumes/detail - is that intentional or are there plans to strip down the output of /volumes ? | 16:59 |
| rushiagr1 | winston-d_: +1 | 17:00 |
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| kmartin | winston-d_: +1, but we would like to get in Grizzly :) | 17:00 |
| jgriffith | smulcahy: probably, I'll have to llok | 17:00 |
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| guitarzan | smulcahy: is that the same header name as from compute? | 17:00 |
| jgriffith | avishay: I think your'e the only one with multiple luns per target | 17:00 |
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| smulcahy | jgriffith: I'm guessing something like X-Volume-Request-Id or maybe just X-Request-Id | 17:00 |
| winston-d_ | kmartin: yup, all basic filter scheduler features to make cinder work will get in G. and more advanced filter/weigher can come later. | 17:01 |
| avishay | xyang_ has also :) | 17:01 |
| xyang_ | We also have multiple luns per target | 17:01 |
| smulcahy | guitarzan: didn't check but I'm guessing we inherited it in move from nova | 17:01 |
| jgriffith | might be easiset to just over-ride the disconnect, but I honestly never got back to it | 17:01 |
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| xyang_ | LVM supports it too | 17:01 |
| kmartin | winston-d_: ok great, looking forward to it | 17:01 |
| guitarzan | smulcahy: sure, but since those request ids are the same across the service, it might not make sense to use different header names | 17:01 |
| jgriffith | avishay: That would be a band-aid at least | 17:01 |
| jgriffith | guitarzan: smulcahy IIRC there was a reason I left those headers | 17:02 |
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| smulcahy | guitarzan: right, so maybe then something service neutral like X-Request-Id ? | 17:02 |
| guitarzan | smulcahy: no argument about that from me :) | 17:02 |
| avishay | xyang_: can you explain about LVM to me and jgriffith? | 17:02 |
| jgriffith | and I believe it had something to dow ith attach/detach as well as avoiding some keystone work | 17:02 |
| jgriffith | but not sure | 17:02 |
| smulcahy | not a big issue, just thought I'd mention it | 17:02 |
| jgriffith | avishay: sure, meet me in #openstak-cidner | 17:02 |
| jgriffith | Ok wer'e out of time | 17:02 |
| jgriffith | thanks everyone | 17:02 |
| jgriffith | #openstack-cinder | 17:02 |
| jgriffith | and reviews, reviews, reviews!!!!! | 17:02 |
| jgriffith | #endmeeting | 17:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack" | 17:03 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Jan 23 17:03:03 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:03 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cinder/2013/cinder.2013-01-23-16.00.html | 17:03 |
| JM1 | thanks john for hosting the party | 17:03 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cinder/2013/cinder.2013-01-23-16.00.txt | 17:03 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cinder/2013/cinder.2013-01-23-16.00.log.html | 17:03 |
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| johngarbutt | #startmeeting XenAPI | 17:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Jan 23 17:03:27 2013 UTC. The chair is johngarbutt. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: XenAPI)" | 17:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'xenapi' | 17:03 |
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| johngarbutt | hello all | 17:03 |
| nikhil | hi | 17:03 |
| matelakat | hi | 17:03 |
| ameade_ | hey hey | 17:03 |
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| Mr_T | hola | 17:04 |
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| johngarbutt | #topic agenda | 17:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "agenda (Meeting topic: XenAPI)" | 17:04 | |
| johngarbutt | what do people want to cover? | 17:04 |
| johngarbutt | there was the swift upload stuff | 17:04 |
| johngarbutt | anything else? | 17:04 |
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| johngarbutt | ideas: blueprints, docs, QA, Bugs | 17:05 |
| matelakat | I would like to have some xenapi lib code pulled to oslo. | 17:05 |
| matelakat | But that's far away from being ready. | 17:05 |
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| johngarbutt | right, Cinder now contacts XenAPi | 17:06 |
| johngarbutt | as does Nova | 17:06 |
| johngarbutt | lets not get into more cut and paste | 17:06 |
| johngarbutt | OK | 17:06 |
| nikhil | :) | 17:06 |
| johngarbutt | lets move on to swift | 17:06 |
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| johngarbutt | #topic swift client in dom0 | 17:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "swift client in dom0 (Meeting topic: XenAPI)" | 17:07 | |
| johngarbutt | let me find the link | 17:07 |
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| nikhil | should we ans any concerns? | 17:07 |
| johngarbutt | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/17803/ | 17:08 |
| johngarbutt | so, what was the issue getting the swift CLI working in Dom0 again? | 17:08 |
| BobBall | I haven't been following this properly - what's the current proposal? a python 2.4 compatible client in dom0? | 17:08 |
| johngarbutt | nope | 17:08 |
| johngarbutt | install python 2.6 | 17:08 |
| johngarbutt | then use a custom swift client | 17:08 |
| johngarbutt | with some chunking code from glance | 17:08 |
| johngarbutt | as plugins | 17:08 |
| BobBall | good for the first bit! I was a little worried :D | 17:08 |
| johngarbutt | I think that is right? | 17:08 |
| ameade_ | that's what is in the patch atm | 17:09 |
| * notmyname is lurking because you mentioned swift | 17:09 | |
| johngarbutt | so I just wondered, why don't we install all of the swift client, unmodified | 17:09 |
| ameade_ | so I thought maybe packaging swiftclient code into the rpm for dom0 would work | 17:10 |
| ameade_ | but turns out that it also has a dependency of keystoneclient | 17:10 |
| ameade_ | when using auth v2 | 17:10 |
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| johngarbutt | OK | 17:10 |
| ameade_ | which has a few other dependencies | 17:10 |
| johngarbutt | is keystone a problem? | 17:10 |
| johngarbutt | hmm, true | 17:10 |
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| johngarbutt | I understand we want to minimize the changes to dom0 | 17:11 |
| nikhil | do we run yum on dom0, is that something advised? | 17:11 |
| johngarbutt | but it seems better to use the standard swift client, | 17:11 |
| matelakat | virtualenv? | 17:11 |
| johngarbutt | good idea | 17:12 |
| nikhil | please just quantify here, why would consider it better john? | 17:12 |
| johngarbutt | the only issue is on non python stuff like lxml | 17:12 |
| johngarbutt | sure | 17:12 |
| johngarbutt | basically we have much less code to maintain | 17:12 |
| nikhil | matelakat: how much memory do you think it will take additionally? | 17:12 |
| matelakat | nikhil: I don't think a virtualenv would cause memory overhead. | 17:13 |
| johngarbutt | so XCP/XenServer doesn't use python 2.6 | 17:13 |
| johngarbutt | so installing pure python 2.6 dependencies should be no issue right? | 17:14 |
| johngarbutt | its the extra bits I fear | 17:14 |
| johngarbutt | let me check out the pip requires for keystone client... | 17:14 |
| nikhil | johngarbutt: pure python 26 screws up a yum and stuff on dom0 | 17:14 |
| johngarbutt | ouch, really? | 17:14 |
| johngarbutt | what happens? | 17:14 |
| nikhil | we could not run yum after installing py26 | 17:14 |
| johngarbutt | hmm, that sucs, I see your yum question before | 17:15 |
| johngarbutt | what package did you use? the one from EPEL? | 17:15 |
| nikhil | right | 17:15 |
| matelakat | can we compile stuff within dom0? | 17:15 |
| johngarbutt | I guess the key thing is not to change the default python to 2.6, leave that at 2.4 | 17:15 |
| nikhil | yes | 17:15 |
| johngarbutt | presumably anyway | 17:16 |
| matelakat | So can we compile a python26, and use it separately? | 17:16 |
| johngarbutt | I didn't spot they when I tried it | 17:16 |
| johngarbutt | I was thinking an extra rpm to switch the default back to python 2.4 | 17:16 |
| matelakat | without disturbing yum? | 17:16 |
| BobBall | The epel packages just sit as new pythons - don't replace the 2.4 at all | 17:16 |
| johngarbutt | that is what I remembered | 17:17 |
| johngarbutt | maybe something deeper is breaking yum | 17:17 |
| johngarbutt | OK, well that is a problem for any of the approaches here | 17:17 |
| johngarbutt | doh | 17:17 |
| johngarbutt | #action johngarbutt: ask about yum and python 2.6 packages | 17:17 |
| nikhil | the minimal py26 works for the swiftclient | 17:18 |
| ameade_ | yeah, we just need to see if getting keystone client and things is more trouble than it's worth | 17:18 |
| nikhil | spot on | 17:18 |
| johngarbutt | right, again, better than writing our own keystone client though? | 17:18 |
| johngarbutt | #link https://github.com/openstack/python-keystoneclient/blob/master/tools/pip-requires | 17:18 |
| johngarbutt | looks quite small | 17:19 |
| matelakat | The effort wouldn't be wasted, if anyone would try to run compute in dom0. | 17:19 |
| nikhil | all the more, we were advised against having to install a package on dom0 | 17:19 |
| nikhil | its a big No No from the Ops | 17:19 |
| johngarbutt | agreed, because of the risk of Citrix saying its not supported, and security risks I guess | 17:19 |
| nikhil | right | 17:20 |
| johngarbutt | virtual env could be the answer, and adding permissions and users etc | 17:20 |
| johngarbutt | but it seems overkill | 17:20 |
| nikhil | matelakat: don't think dom0 could handle running entire compute on it (from the current experience) | 17:20 |
| ameade_ | yeah seems like a possibility but really heavy handed | 17:21 |
| matelakat | These keystoneclient deps does not seem to be too serious. | 17:21 |
| nikhil | another dev had mentioned virtualenv | 17:21 |
| johngarbutt | I think the security risk of bad code due to copy and paste would be bigger than most of the others | 17:21 |
| matelakat | johngarbutt +1 | 17:21 |
| johngarbutt | but that is just my view, willing to be corrected! | 17:21 |
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| nikhil | but hw backed from that opinion as some of them were concerned about small memory on dom0 | 17:21 |
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| nikhil | johngarbutt: think keystone is quite fragile | 17:22 |
| nikhil | having keystone client would make it worse | 17:22 |
| johngarbutt | the process is very short lived, so it should be OK, but testing is the only well to tell I guess | 17:22 |
| nikhil | not sure if can expect security changes from swift anytime soon | 17:22 |
| johngarbutt | you can increase dom0 memory, but obviously that reduces what is left for VMs | 17:22 |
| nikhil | right you are | 17:22 |
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| nikhil | yes | 17:23 |
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| johngarbutt | its not just changes right, we have new code that might have its own issues | 17:23 |
| nikhil | guess as a Citrix person you would suggest against increasing dom0 memory? | 17:23 |
| johngarbutt | I know Citrix recommends it for XenDeskop customers, for certain density reasons. Newer versions actually have higher defaults | 17:24 |
| johngarbutt | but not sure | 17:24 |
| johngarbutt | for the general case | 17:24 |
| BobBall | We're quite happy for dom0 memory to be increased now - in fact it's going to be the default in some scenarios. The only downside is there is a reduction in some blk performances | 17:24 |
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| johngarbutt | BobBall: was that only over 2GB of RAM though? or something? | 17:24 |
| johngarbutt | anyway | 17:25 |
| johngarbutt | we got side tracked | 17:25 |
| nikhil | well to have to increase the dom0 memory for 1000s of servers might just do some trick in the deployment, i would guess? | 17:25 |
| nikhil | yes yes | 17:25 |
| nikhil | swift client | 17:25 |
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| johngarbutt | can we try and see if that installs OK? | 17:26 |
| johngarbutt | using pip is easiest | 17:26 |
| johngarbutt | pip-2.6 or something like that I gues | 17:26 |
| johngarbutt | if its really bad, then I guess we need to look at something else? | 17:27 |
| ameade_ | yeah i think this is something to look into | 17:27 |
| johngarbutt | we should be able to run it and see how much memory that process uses | 17:27 |
| ameade_ | is there another option we aren't considering? | 17:27 |
| ameade_ | currently the glance plugin just does communication through httplib | 17:27 |
| johngarbutt | so, there was some code from glance in there for chunking, could the swift client not do that for us now? | 17:27 |
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| johngarbutt | ah, I guess that answers my question! | 17:27 |
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| johngarbutt | I don't understand why glance does that? I guess someone will know | 17:28 |
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| nikhil | dom0 streams images to glance | 17:28 |
| nikhil | so there is an open connection for doing that | 17:28 |
| johngarbutt | yes, it just uses wget I think | 17:29 |
| johngarbutt | I would have to check | 17:29 |
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| johngarbutt | I think we could look at using the official glance client if this other stuff goes well | 17:29 |
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| johngarbutt | if Dom0 had python 2.6 by default, I am guessing we would not even worry about this | 17:30 |
| johngarbutt | sorry I see httplib | 17:30 |
| johngarbutt | for the upload | 17:30 |
| nikhil | yes, however at the same time we would like to avoid installing anything on dom0 | 17:31 |
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| ameade_ | are we out of time? | 17:31 |
| matelakat | versioning would be another pain, I guess. | 17:31 |
| johngarbutt | if the swift code could be as simple, I guess I would be OK with it. its the chunking stuff that seems working sharing | 17:31 |
| ameade_ | yeah it would have to be much simpler for me to feel comfortable too | 17:32 |
| johngarbutt | ameade_: we have till 18:00 UTC as normal this week I think | 17:32 |
| ameade_ | kk | 17:32 |
| johngarbutt | but we should wrap this up | 17:32 |
| nikhil | yes, glance is flexible to handle that | 17:32 |
| ameade_ | off the top of my head i'm not sure how much simpler we can make that code | 17:32 |
| johngarbutt | is there some vote function on here | 17:32 |
| nikhil | what are the next steps we have considered then? | 17:32 |
| johngarbutt | #vote | 17:32 |
| nikhil | unless a decision has been made, seem unlikely | 17:32 |
| ameade_ | yeah i dont know how to do it | 17:33 |
| ameade_ | vote i mean | 17:33 |
| johngarbutt | #startvote | 17:33 |
| openstack | Unable to parse vote topic and options. | 17:33 |
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| johngarbutt | what we try to install swift client, and see how bad it is first | 17:34 |
| johngarbutt | please +1 or -1 that | 17:34 |
| nikhil | +1 | 17:34 |
| ameade_ | yeah i feel like we should look deeper into both options | 17:34 |
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| ameade_ | starting with installing | 17:34 |
| matelakat | +1 | 17:34 |
| ameade_ | so +1 | 17:34 |
| BobBall | +1 | 17:34 |
| ameade_ | +1 | 17:34 |
| johngarbutt | +1 | 17:34 |
| johngarbutt | OK | 17:35 |
| nikhil | :-) | 17:35 |
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| johngarbutt | #agreed try install swiftclient (and keystone client) into dom0 | 17:35 |
| johngarbutt | I think that is best | 17:35 |
| johngarbutt | we can then see how bad stuff is | 17:35 |
| nikhil | agree | 17:35 |
| johngarbutt | cool | 17:35 |
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| johngarbutt | any other concerns with this stuff? it looks good to me really | 17:36 |
| nikhil | well another collegue just pointed out | 17:36 |
| nikhil | the httplib connection seems insecure, although not in consideration just wanted to put it on the table | 17:37 |
| nikhil | insecure for dom0 | 17:37 |
| johngarbutt | for glance or swift or both? | 17:37 |
| nikhil | anyways, guessing we have our TODOs, do we meet again next Wed? | 17:37 |
| johngarbutt | yes, lets meet every wednesday | 17:38 |
| nikhil | in general | 17:38 |
| johngarbutt | you would like https? | 17:38 |
| nikhil | however glance is supposed to be an internal deployment and hidden behind nova | 17:38 |
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| johngarbutt | I assumed that was internal network | 17:38 |
| johngarbutt | at the moment | 17:38 |
| nikhil | https would be too slow if you want to upload 30G image | 17:38 |
| johngarbutt | glance can be external | 17:38 |
| nikhil | you'r right | 17:38 |
| nikhil | but that usecase for security hasn't come yet | 17:39 |
| johngarbutt | I guess its defence in depth | 17:39 |
| nikhil | right | 17:39 |
| johngarbutt | the checksums are probably worth checking | 17:39 |
| johngarbutt | to make sure it didn't get tampered with | 17:39 |
| nikhil | I would just like to rewrite a lot of stuff | 17:39 |
| johngarbutt | I can understand that! | 17:39 |
| ameade_ | story of my life | 17:39 |
| nikhil | those are checked in glance and swift | 17:39 |
| nikhil | checksums | 17:39 |
| johngarbutt | I like the boy scout rule | 17:39 |
| johngarbutt | make sure stuff is better after every checkin | 17:40 |
| johngarbutt | :-) | 17:40 |
| johngarbutt | anyway | 17:40 |
| ameade_ | me too but people dont like random improvments in merge props | 17:40 |
| ameade_ | lol | 17:40 |
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| johngarbutt | I guess we are finished | 17:40 |
| ameade_ | thanks | 17:40 |
| nikhil | thanks! | 17:40 |
| johngarbutt | #topic aob | 17:40 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "aob (Meeting topic: XenAPI)" | 17:40 | |
| johngarbutt | anything else? | 17:40 |
| notmyname | ameade_: feel free to submit "random improvements" into python-swiftclient :-) | 17:40 |
| johngarbutt | ameade_: yes, but you can impove stuff in separate checkins | 17:40 |
| johngarbutt | +1 | 17:41 |
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| ameade_ | definitely, just find me some time! | 17:41 |
| johngarbutt | OK, some extra love for the OVS reviews seems worth bringing up again, I guess | 17:41 |
| johngarbutt | but looks like that is getting closer now | 17:41 |
| johngarbutt | see you all next week | 17:41 |
| johngarbutt | thanks for your time | 17:42 |
| johngarbutt | I hope it helped! | 17:42 |
| johngarbutt | #endmeeting | 17:42 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack" | 17:42 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Jan 23 17:42:09 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:42 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/xenapi/2013/xenapi.2013-01-23-17.03.html | 17:42 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/xenapi/2013/xenapi.2013-01-23-17.03.txt | 17:42 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/xenapi/2013/xenapi.2013-01-23-17.03.log.html | 17:42 |
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| SpamapS | o/ | 18:01 |
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| notmyname | swift meeting time | 19:00 |
| notmyname | your favorite part of the fortnight ;-) | 19:00 |
| notmyname | #startmeeting swift | 19:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Jan 23 19:00:43 2013 UTC. The chair is notmyname. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'swift' | 19:00 |
| notmyname | I sent out an agenda outline to the mailing list | 19:01 |
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| notmyname | first up: slight change in versioning/tagging at common release time | 19:01 |
| notmyname | nothing major, but something I think you should be aware of | 19:01 |
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| notmyname | old way: we release when we're ready (hopefully close to the combined release time), and our last release during the cycle gets included | 19:02 |
| notmyname | in the case that we want to cut another release before the combined release comes out, we do it and versions get bumped | 19:02 |
| notmyname | new way: we release when we're ready (hopefully close to the combined rleease time), and that does the normal milestone-proposed dance as normal | 19:03 |
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| notmyname | except now, at the combined release time, the final version on milestone-proposed will not get the final version flag until the actual release, and instead will get a -rcX tag | 19:04 |
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| notmyname | no real change to us, but the impact is that we cannot release a full new version between what we think will be in the combined release and when the combined release actually releases | 19:05 |
| notmyname | any questions? | 19:05 |
| chmouel | so on milestone-proposed we get -rc? and on release remove the -rc? | 19:05 |
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| notmyname | chmouel: technically, a new non-rc tag (rather than deleting a tag), but yes | 19:05 |
| chmouel | ok | 19:05 |
| swifterdarrell | notmyname: "combined release" is like Essex or Folsom? or something inbetween? | 19:05 |
| notmyname | ya, the essex, folsom, etc releases | 19:06 |
| notmyname | but since the milestone-proposed will still be "active", we cannot use it for another release until the combined release comes out | 19:06 |
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| notmyname | oh, I should use the meetbot flags | 19:07 |
| swifterdarrell | so the tradeoff is potentially backporting (to -rcX) instead of rushing a new release if we have late changes which are important (between the milestone-proposed release and combined release), correct? | 19:07 |
| notmyname | correct | 19:07 |
| caitlinbestler | Does this reduce the amount of project-wide testing on a non-openstack-integrated release? | 19:07 |
| notmyname | but that's essentially what we do now anyway | 19:07 |
| tongli | @notmyname, is there a link to access the 'what's new in the release on Swift'? | 19:08 |
| notmyname | caitlinbestler: I think this mostly comes from distros being able to plan for the combined release. I think it may help the openstack CI team have consistent version numbers, though | 19:09 |
| notmyname | tongli: the CHANGELOG os the authoritative source, but I also normally send out an email about it too | 19:09 |
| malini | notmyname: -rcX is the X an integer, just bunp up X? or is it -rcGrisly .. I am wondering because we have milestones such as G1, G2 etc | 19:09 |
| creiht | notmyname: in other words, avoids everyone from going crazy because we add a .1 to the release? :) | 19:09 |
| notmyname | malini: integer | 19:09 |
| notmyname | creiht: ya :-) | 19:09 |
| creiht | lol | 19:09 |
| notmyname | it doesn't really change anything we've been doing, but I'm told it makes other people's lives easier :-) | 19:10 |
| creiht | seems like a reasonable compromise though | 19:10 |
| creiht | just funny | 19:10 |
| notmyname | ya | 19:10 |
| notmyname | #info swift candidates for the openstack combined release will have an -rcX tag until the combined release actually happens to avoid a version number dance in the case of backports | 19:11 |
| swifterdarrell | important changes between milestone-proposed release and combined release are a PITA any way you slice it, so seems reasonable (not any worse, etc.) | 19:11 |
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| notmyname | yup | 19:11 |
| notmyname | #topic swift next API wiki | 19:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "swift next API wiki (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:11 | |
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| notmyname | creiht and chmouel talked about and put together http://wiki.openstack.org/SwiftNextAPI. awesome. let's all add to it | 19:12 |
| notmyname | #link http://wiki.openstack.org/SwiftNextAPI | 19:12 |
| clayg | cool hadn't seen that | 19:13 |
| notmyname | some of the minor changes are things we should consider addressing sooner than later, but for the big stuff, I'd like you to think about "what does swift 2.0 mean?" | 19:13 |
| notmyname | creiht: thanks for putting it up | 19:13 |
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| notmyname | I don't have much to add there. just wanted to say I liked it and make sure people knew about it | 19:14 |
| notmyname | #topic pycon sprint | 19:14 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "pycon sprint (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:15 | |
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| malini | For me from an API standpoint, it means new user functionality. Including server side encryption, it could include stuff like cold-storage, reduce number of copies | 19:15 |
| notmyname | swiftstack and redhat are working together to host a sprint at pycon this year. our goal is not to work on swift directly, but to encourage client apps written against the swift api | 19:15 |
| creiht | notmyname: I'm planning on going through the apis before the conference | 19:15 |
| notmyname | If you would like to be involved, please let me know | 19:15 |
| notmyname | creiht: cool | 19:16 |
| cschwede | i'd like to be involved, might add some code to server side encryption | 19:16 |
| notmyname | we have 2 ideas for the sprint, and I'd like your feedback: 1) add swift support to tools like boto and s3cmd 2) hackathon to build swift clients | 19:17 |
| notmyname | thoughts? | 19:17 |
| notmyname | what would be interesting to you to hack on? | 19:17 |
| creiht | notmyname: That will likely depends on who shows up for the sprints right? | 19:17 |
| notmyname | creiht: it does affect how we promote it though | 19:18 |
| chmouel | will probably not be able to make it | 19:18 |
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| creiht | true | 19:18 |
| creiht | I'm still looking into weather I can stay for the sprints or not | 19:18 |
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| notmyname | although the sprints are 3 days after the conference, I think we'll just be doing stuff on monday the 18th | 19:19 |
| notmyname | a single day | 19:19 |
| malini | I am new to all things Swift and would like to participate .. so I have some ramping to do till March before hackthon. Just went through John's swift workshop from the last summit. | 19:19 |
| creiht | k | 19:19 |
| malini | +1 for swift clients | 19:20 |
| notmyname | malini: that's what I'm leaning towards too | 19:20 |
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| swifterdarrell | I like the adding-swift-support to existing tools idea... since this is PyCon, we'd be talking tools implemented in python or python client libraries, right? | 19:20 |
| creiht | notmyname: that's cool with me, perhaps with a "or we will help you with whatever you would like to hack on" | 19:20 |
| clayg | yeah I'd rather see a new tool that is built for swift than adding swift support to something I don't know the guts of and has an impedence mismatch | 19:21 |
| clayg | heh | 19:21 |
| notmyname | creiht: of course | 19:21 |
| cschwede | does swift clients includes addons to the current swift.py? | 19:21 |
| notmyname | swifterdarrell: clayg: can I agree with both of you? ;-) | 19:21 |
| creiht | notmyname: another intersting one would be improving swift3 | 19:22 |
| * clayg is not that interested... | 19:22 | |
| clayg | ;) | 19:22 |
| notmyname | cschwede: perhaps, but also like "build a better cyberduck" or, in a hackathon sense, "build a small site that stores data in swift" | 19:22 |
| notmyname | creiht: indeed | 19:22 |
| creiht | lol | 19:22 |
| creiht | notmyname: I think a general cross-platform gui written in python would be very nice | 19:23 |
| creiht | and well received | 19:23 |
| notmyname | ya | 19:23 |
| clayg | cross-platform? you mean the web right? | 19:23 |
| cschwede | creiht: web or desktop? | 19:23 |
| clayg | lol | 19:24 |
| clayg | srly who does desktop apps anymore | 19:24 |
| creiht | of course there is also improving swiftly, or the user space wrappers (like fuse, etc.) | 19:24 |
| creiht | cschwede: desktop | 19:24 |
| tongli | probably swift-dropbox for mobile device is the best thing to do. | 19:24 |
| creiht | if you are looking at web based, actually it wouldn't be a bad idea to improve horizon support | 19:24 |
| swifterdarrell | cschwede: I hope so :) having python-swiftclient be a well-regarded, easy to use python client for Swift is a good goal; I'd like python devs who want to store and retrieve things to look at python-swiftclient and say, "Oh yeah, this is a breeze and does what I want" (not saying it's not already--I haven't looked at it from that perspective) | 19:24 |
| chmouel | or improve things like that https://github.com/reidrac/swift-nbd-server | 19:24 |
| creiht | I think there are plenty of opportunities | 19:25 |
| creiht | just depends on the interest of those that show up | 19:25 |
| notmyname | ya, tons of great ideas | 19:25 |
| chmouel | we probably should start a wiki page with the list of ideas | 19:25 |
| swifterdarrell | clayg: who does desktop apps? Um, Cyberduck? (which keeps coming up from real people as a client they're pointing at Swift) | 19:25 |
| tongli | I've noticed a lot of people have dropbox on their phone these days, including few 9 year-olders and I was bit surprised. | 19:25 |
| clayg | I acctally had a question about the api thing (tahnks for bringing that up notmyname) - it kinda moved by quickly - should I wait? | 19:25 |
| creiht | tongli: it is more difficult to do mobile dev with python | 19:26 |
| notmyname | clayg: let's move on. next topic is future plans for swift, so it fits there | 19:26 |
| notmyname | thanks for the great ideas for the sprint | 19:26 |
| tongli | developed a mobile app based on swift API will be useful and get product recongized by large number of people quickly. | 19:26 |
| creiht | tongli: I totaly agree that mobile apps would also be useful :) | 19:26 |
| tongli | true! | 19:26 |
| notmyname | tongli: provide a moble framework that app devs can use to store data in swift (ie what dropbox is doing) | 19:27 |
| malini | i like tongli mobile drop-box idea | 19:27 |
| malini | that meets GUI, swift client .. | 19:27 |
| creiht | malini: but this is a python conference, and the sprints are usually on python apps | 19:27 |
| creiht | which don't match well with mobile | 19:27 |
| chmouel | yeah not sure about the java part | 19:27 |
| tongli | since we were talking about client. right true for that conf. | 19:27 |
| notmyname | creiht: it did with the nokia OS ;-) | 19:27 |
| tongli | but client app can be built regardless that that meeting/conf | 19:28 |
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| creiht | oh great, so the 1 person with a nokia os phone and a swift cluster to talk to could use it :) | 19:28 |
| creiht | tongli: certainly | 19:28 |
| tongli | it will spread the Swift to bigger crowd. | 19:28 |
| notmyname | creiht: symbian | 19:28 |
| notmyname | creiht: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_for_S60 | 19:28 |
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| notmyname | ok, moving on... :-) | 19:29 |
| creiht | lol | 19:29 |
| notmyname | #topic swift in 2013 | 19:29 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "swift in 2013 (Meeting topic: swift)" | 19:29 | |
| swifterdarrell | we gonna wikify the ideas somewhere? | 19:29 |
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| notmyname | swifterdarrell: ya, I'll scape the transcript for it | 19:29 |
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| creiht | we should start a wiki to keep track of all the stuff we want to wiki | 19:29 |
| swifterdarrell | cool | 19:29 |
| notmyname | clayg: what's your API question? | 19:29 |
| clayg | well so... we have some "optional" middleware right now "enahcnes" the api | 19:30 |
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| clayg | do those ever becomes part of the core api? Like when you talk about what a POST means to the swift api - you have to talk about multipart forms and form-post (e.g.) | 19:31 |
| creiht | *crickets* | 19:33 |
| creiht | :) | 19:33 |
| clayg | I just ask because we talk about client tools - they want to know what they can count on from a swift endpoint, and a major version bump might be a good time to "officialize" some of the api enhancements that already have momentum - or double check to see if they have any warts? | 19:33 |
| notmyname | clayg: so since there is no doc defining the swift api as a spec, the "swift API" has pretty much meant "what can an app reasonably expect a deployer to do" | 19:33 |
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| notmyname | ya, a mojor version bump (or any version bump) would require some more formal definition | 19:33 |
| notmyname | *probably | 19:33 |
| swifterdarrell | discoverability of what's supported in a particular deployment's implementation of the API could be handy; don't want to overcomplicate things, but being able to tell something about what middleware is around or how proxy-server's configured, etc could be useful | 19:34 |
| notmyname | but I don't think that code organization affects what the API is (at least too much). IOW, it doesn't matter from an API perspective if it's in middleware or in the process | 19:34 |
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| swifterdarrell | I know the idea of exposing the configured swift limits was floated at one point | 19:35 |
| clayg | ^ good example! | 19:35 |
| uvirtbot | clayg: Error: "good" is not a valid command. | 19:35 |
| clayg | i hate you SO much uvirtbot | 19:35 |
| yuanz | notmyname: can I say that you will focus on the multi-region for swift 2013? seems there are lots of dependency on this in the blueprints page | 19:36 |
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| notmyname | clayg: example of discovering configured constraints as part of the API? | 19:36 |
| swifterdarrell | clayg: Error: "i hate you SO much uvirtbot" is not nice. | 19:36 |
| torgomatic | I like the middleware-queryability idea | 19:36 |
| notmyname | yuanz: ya, I'll get to that in just a bit | 19:36 |
| creiht | https://developers.google.com/discovery/ | 19:36 |
| clayg | swifterdarrell: sorry | 19:37 |
| swifterdarrell | torgomatic: I guess you can always "query" it by trying the API a middleware might be implementing and deduce its absence from the response | 19:37 |
| alpha_ori | creiht: interesting. | 19:37 |
| swifterdarrell | torgomatic: doh, misread that as "I don't like" | 19:37 |
| clayg | notmyname: yeah something like discovery would "need to be there" so if it's done in middleware it couldn't really be "optional" in your pipeline? | 19:37 |
| notmyname | swifterdarrell: essentially the web client model for feature degredation | 19:38 |
| creiht | alpha_ori: yeah I haven't had a chance to dig real deep into it yet, but seems like they have done a lot in that domain | 19:38 |
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| notmyname | clayg: ya, but things like cache and check_errors aren't really optional either | 19:38 |
| alpha_ori | notmyname: That's what we do now with our web client to some degree. | 19:38 |
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| alpha_ori | notmyname: but that puts some burden on the client. | 19:39 |
| notmyname | ya, it's not great. it's where we are today, and I do like the idea of discoverability | 19:39 |
| creiht | the easiest (and could still be v1 compatible) would be to add some sort of capabilities resource | 19:40 |
| caitlinbestler | Aren't we talking about two different things here? 1) a presumably wsgi method to find out exactly what middleware modules are enabled, and 2) what the relevant configuration options are for the swift relevant modules? | 19:40 |
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| creiht | a client could get that to know what apis are available | 19:40 |
| malini | would python decorators saying deprecated be adequate (java has deprecated tags) | 19:40 |
| creiht | caitlinbestler: it could be depending on how it is implemented | 19:40 |
| clayg | discoverability is great for *optional* elements, my originial question was really about getting things that clients want to count on in the api spec explicitly | 19:40 |
| swifterdarrell | Swift API 2.0 (or whatever) could define an API middlewares would implement, with, perhaps, proxy-server coughing up the proper "not present" response (for when an optional middleware isn't in the pipeline) | 19:40 |
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| notmyname | creiht: ya, I've got a (really, really dumb 30-minutes-spent-on-it) middleware in my github account that does that | 19:41 |
| notmyname | clayg: that would mean that we'd have to be explicit about the api | 19:41 |
| clayg | I also don't like the idea of "discoveribility" being "what middleware is in the pipeline" - I should be able to conform to the api (including a well speced ehancement) even if I'm running a *different* middleware that the one that comes stock? | 19:41 |
| notmyname | which would be a change | 19:41 |
| notmyname | clayg: like the deb packaging "provides" directive (eg you get "mail" with both postfix and sendmail) | 19:42 |
| alpha_ori | clayg: interesting, but that would require defining standards for features themselves. | 19:42 |
| alpha_ori | clayg: not that we couldn't do that. | 19:42 |
| torgomatic | could group things into conceptual "features"; then do something like OPTIONS /features/temporary-urls, and if it 404s, then tempurl's functionality isn't there | 19:42 |
| alpha_ori | clayg: What does it mean to provide S3 compatibility, for instance? | 19:43 |
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| torgomatic | then you can reimplement tempurl's API to your heart's content, and just make sure your new fancy middleware says 200 to OPTIONS /features/temporary-urls | 19:43 |
| swifterdarrell | clayg: my idea was that middleware would say kind of what it can do; so like you said, the Swift API would define an optional form-post subset; any middleware purporting to support form-post functionality would implement that API including answing some kind of discovery req about it | 19:43 |
| clayg | swifterdarrell: ok, that sounds reasonable | 19:44 |
| swifterdarrell | clayg: if an alternate implementation of Swift's optional subset API for form-post came along, it could conform to the discovery API response and be a drop-in replacement from a client perspective | 19:44 |
| swifterdarrell | clayg: (the point of APIs, right?) | 19:44 |
| alpha_ori | swifterdarrell: Do we yet have any examples of popular middleware that duplicate each other's efforts? | 19:44 |
| clayg | alpha_ori: s3 is hard, but if someone wrote a "better than swift3" middleware for swift - clients checking for "does this endpoint support s3 api" shouldn't have to know if I've installed swift3 or the other? | 19:44 |
| notmyname | alpha_ori: auth | 19:44 |
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| alpha_ori | notmyname: ok...anything else? | 19:45 |
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| notmyname | ok, we only have a few more minutes. let's put dsicoverability off till later (would make a great summit topic) | 19:45 |
| notmyname | ya | 19:45 |
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| notmyname | general 2013 goals. | 19:45 |
| clayg | swifterdarrell: I agree with 100%, i was worried for some reason that we'd "return a list of middleware - discoverable - done" | 19:46 |
| notmyname | what use case are we looking to solve or enhance this year? | 19:46 |
| creiht | clayg: hehe | 19:46 |
| creiht | clayg: you always asume the worst :) | 19:46 |
| notmyname | global clusters is something that we (swiftstack) are working on now | 19:46 |
| creiht | notmyname: any update as to where that is? | 19:47 |
| swifterdarrell | As mentioned, global clusters has been a community desire since at least the Boston conference (and probably before) | 19:47 |
| creiht | how things are coming? | 19:47 |
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| swifterdarrell | creiht: well the first two patches are languishing in Gerrit pretty well | 19:47 |
| torgomatic | well, ring enhancements are sitting in Gerrit (https://review.openstack.org/18263) | 19:47 |
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| creiht | there is a lot languishing in gerrit :) | 19:47 |
| notmyname | creiht: isn't one of those waiting for a follow up from you? ;-) | 19:48 |
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| creiht | notmyname: like I said, my list keeps getting longer :) | 19:48 |
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| notmyname | ya, so global clusters has some patches in gerrit now, and the other functionality will be coming, I hope, over the next month | 19:49 |
| creiht | swifterdarrell: I was asking that rather than submit a couple of patches and wait, could you at least throw some stuff in WIP so people could see how things are taking shape overall? | 19:49 |
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| notmyname | creiht: our list is long too, we'll submit them when we can :-) | 19:50 |
| swifterdarrell | creiht: because that'd speed up the reviews on the ready patches or because that'd be a good unrelated thing to have? | 19:50 |
| creiht | ok, so then future patches aren't hinging on those approvals... good :) | 19:51 |
| swifterdarrell | creiht: I think we'd like to submit a couple of patches and not have to wait (forever) | 19:51 |
| creiht | swifterdarrell: it would just be nice to see where things are going | 19:51 |
| swifterdarrell | ;) | 19:51 |
| notmyname | beyond global clusters, are there any other big things like that that your associated companies are working on? tiering? encryption ( caitlinbestler?) etc? | 19:51 |
| creiht | swifterdarrell: I think we can all agree that we all have a lot on our plates, and we are getting to things as we can | 19:51 |
| swifterdarrell | creiht: yup! | 19:51 |
| notmyname | generally, what are you working on or planning that will go into the core of Swift? | 19:51 |
| cschwede | Maybe not a big thing - but I'm working on a quota middleware | 19:52 |
| creiht | cschwede: have you seen the quota stuff that is currently in review? | 19:53 |
| notmyname | cschwede: ah, cool. have you seen mike barton's (redbo) patches | 19:53 |
| swifterdarrell | We'll continue to improve Swift monitoring as we get to it (see: plates and the count of things on them), but nothing earth-shattering planned there | 19:53 |
| cschwede | creiht: yes, my work is currently on an account level | 19:53 |
| chmouel | we'll probaby work on some migration tools for swift (cluster to cluster) probably not something for Core | 19:54 |
| cschwede | notmyname: no, will look into that. I talked to nijaba and chmouel (thanks for your comments!) | 19:54 |
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| notmyname | chmouel: cool | 19:54 |
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| clayg | wasn't rax looking at enhancements to object replication to leverage xfs internal data structures or do better prefix-hash-tree-rsync-faster-ninja-something? or is object repliation still cycling "fast enough"? | 19:55 |
| cschwede | notmyname: current working implementation supports tempauth, keystone and swauth: https://github.com/cschwede/swquota README is a little bit out of date - I'll update it tomorrow (added a tool for simpler quota set recently) | 19:55 |
| creiht | clayg: replication enhancements are still being looked into, but I think they have moved onto another idea | 19:55 |
| caitlinbestler_ | Reconnecting -- on encryption - Nexenta is working on encryption but specifically on solutions that would *not* be part of swift core. | 19:55 |
| yuanz | swifterdarrell: by monitoring do you mean the statsd+graphit work, or a new tool? | 19:55 |
| notmyname | caitlinbestler_: ok, good to know (I liek that approach, thanks for your ML comments) | 19:56 |
| clayg | creiht: awesome! | 19:56 |
| chmouel | cschwede: nice.. i am planning to test that sometime next week and we'll give you some feedback it could be nice to merge this with the redbo's container quota | 19:56 |
| notmyname | and we're pretty much out of time.. anything else for the last 3 minutes? | 19:56 |
| swifterdarrell | yuanz: I generally mean changes to core swift for emission of monitoring data (eg. statsd, but not graphite or any other consumer of StatsD output, which is outside the scope of core swift code) | 19:56 |
| notmyname | next meeting is Feb 6 at 1900UTC | 19:57 |
| yuanz | ok | 19:57 |
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| notmyname | I'll put together a summary based on the transcript and send it out | 19:57 |
| creiht | notmyname: redbo has some work on bit torrent support | 19:57 |
| swifterdarrell | yuanz: an example of "ongoing improvement" to that would be https://review.openstack.org/#/c/20089/ | 19:57 |
| notmyname | creiht: nice! | 19:57 |
| creiht | https://github.com/rackspace/cloudfiles-sworrent | 19:58 |
| creiht | if anyone would like to provide some feedback | 19:58 |
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| notmyname | creiht: 404 | 19:58 |
| creiht | oh dangit | 19:58 |
| creiht | heh | 19:58 |
| creiht | I thought he made that public :) | 19:58 |
| creiht | well once he is comfortable with others seeing it, I'll let you know :) | 19:58 |
| notmyname | cool | 19:58 |
| cschwede | chmouel: that would be nice - thanks! | 19:58 |
| creiht | notmyname: I'm trying to play with better ways with handling metadata | 19:59 |
| creiht | but that's very low priority | 19:59 |
| creiht | at the moment | 19:59 |
| notmyname | k | 19:59 |
| notmyname | and we're out of time | 19:59 |
| notmyname | thanks for attending. great feedback | 19:59 |
| notmyname | #endmeeting | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack" | 20:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Jan 23 19:59:59 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/swift/2013/swift.2013-01-23-19.00.html | 20:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/swift/2013/swift.2013-01-23-19.00.txt | 20:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/swift/2013/swift.2013-01-23-19.00.log.html | 20:00 |
| notmyname | wow. perfect timing | 20:00 |
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| sdake | #startmeeting heat | 20:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Jan 23 20:00:19 2013 UTC. The chair is sdake. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'heat' | 20:00 |
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| sdake | #topic rollcall | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "rollcall (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:00 | |
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| zaneb | o/ | 20:00 |
| sdake | sdake here | 20:00 |
| cody-somerville | Hi | 20:00 |
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| sdake | howdy zaneb | 20:00 |
| SpamapS | o/ | 20:00 |
| stevebaker | \O | 20:00 |
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| shardy | shardy here | 20:00 |
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| sdake | stevebaker has a big head ;) | 20:00 |
| zaneb | DSL works this week :) | 20:01 |
| sdake | nice zaneb | 20:01 |
| shadower | hey | 20:01 |
| asalkeld | hi | 20:01 |
| jpeeler | jpeeler here | 20:01 |
| stevebaker | full house | 20:01 |
| echohead | hi | 20:01 |
| sdake | #info sdake, cody-somrville, spamaps, stevebaker, shardy, zaneb, shadower, asalkeld, jpeeler, echohead present | 20:01 |
| sdake | #topic action review | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "action review (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:02 | |
| sdake | #info http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/heat/2013/heat.2013-01-16-20.00.html | 20:02 |
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| sdake | not sure what i was supposed to do with moving vpc resources to defn->approved - I think stevebaker was going to file separate blueprints for each vpc type | 20:03 |
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| stevebaker | I've just done the blueprints | 20:03 |
| sdake | ok, i'll move that to next week then :) | 20:03 |
| sdake | #action sdake to follow up on stevebaker's vpc blueprints | 20:04 |
| stevebaker | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/heat/+spec/vpc-resources | 20:04 |
| sdake | stevebaker to take on ubuntu ppa | 20:04 |
| stevebaker | They should all be hanging off that now | 20:04 |
| sdake | any progress there? | 20:04 |
| stevebaker | nothing this week, thats a long term project l) | 20:04 |
| stevebaker | 0 | 20:04 |
| sdake | ok, will move off the weekly beating on that one ;) | 20:05 |
| stevebaker | beat away | 20:05 |
| sdake | #action ubuntu PPA long term action | 20:05 |
| sdake | #topic blueprint review for g3 | 20:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "blueprint review for g3 (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:05 | |
| sdake | https://launchpad.net/heat/+milestone/grizzly-3 | 20:05 |
| sdake | ttx had asked us to sort out "Delivery" field | 20:05 |
| sdake | if unknown, should go to started or not started | 20:06 |
| sdake | can the assignees of the blueprint do that, since they are best suited to know the correct answer? | 20:06 |
| asalkeld | when i go to the bp there is no delivery | 20:07 |
| zaneb | how do you even do that? | 20:07 |
| zaneb | yeah, what asalkeld said | 20:07 |
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| sdake | "Implementation" | 20:07 |
| SpamapS | I think you mean Implementation | 20:07 |
| stevebaker | Does the Definition need to be set to something other than New before that happens? | 20:07 |
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| zaneb | ah yeah, Implementation did it | 20:08 |
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| zaneb | that seems like a bug in Launchpad | 20:08 |
| sdake | click through to the blueprint, then click "Implementation" | 20:08 |
| Slower | sorry here | 20:08 |
| sdake | ok, so asalkeld, shardy, stevebaker, jpeeler all have BPs, can you set the "Implementation" field then? | 20:09 |
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| * stevebaker does it now | 20:09 | |
| sdake | thanks | 20:09 |
| asalkeld | yip | 20:09 |
| shardy | sdake: done | 20:09 |
| sdake | #action asalkeld, shardy, stevebaker, jpeeler to set implementation field in BPs | 20:09 |
| jpeeler | is the implementation only changeable by the person who registered? | 20:10 |
| sdake | yes | 20:10 |
| SpamapS | or assignee should also be able to do it | 20:10 |
| sdake | or maybe only the asignee | 20:10 |
| jpeeler | i'm assigned, but have no way i see to change it. can sort it later | 20:10 |
| sdake | we should go through these vpc priorities | 20:11 |
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| sdake | i'd personally say they all should be hi | 20:11 |
| SpamapS | Its entirely possible that New has to be changed to a "defined" state for assignee to be allowed to mess with Implementation | 20:11 |
| sdake | gh | 20:11 |
| SpamapS | the whole thing is rather opaque and designed to fit the ubuntu dev workflow | 20:11 |
| sdake | jpeeler use the force (ie: play with it ;) | 20:11 |
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| stevebaker | They should all be the same priority, whatever it is | 20:12 |
| sdake | anyone have objections for high? | 20:12 |
| SpamapS | usually there's an approver (track lead) that sets Definition to Approved, and then the assignee is responsible from there | 20:12 |
| stevebaker | nope | 20:12 |
| sdake | thanks spamaps, new to launchpad here ;) | 20:12 |
| SpamapS | so, if you want asignees to have full control, make them approvers too | 20:13 |
| sdake | they are approvers I believe | 20:13 |
| sdake | we can chat after meeting if you have a moment | 20:13 |
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| sdake | #action sdake to set all VPC blueprints to high | 20:13 |
| SpamapS | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/heat/+spec/prebuilding-images <-- jpeeler is not approver, and definition is still Drafting | 20:14 |
| sdake | #topic preservation of resources | 20:14 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "preservation of resources (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:14 | |
| sdake | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/heat/+spec/preserve-resources | 20:14 |
| SpamapS | oh thats me :) | 20:14 |
| sdake | my initial thought is we have alot on our plate already for H - only 4 weeks left in the dev cycle | 20:15 |
| SpamapS | So, I think this will take a good discussion at the summit to fully flesh out, but I need to put together some PoC implementations before then so I thought I'd bring it up now | 20:15 |
| sdake | 15 blueprints, about 25 bugs to fix | 20:15 |
| sdake | ya, open to discussions at summit | 20:15 |
| stevebaker | This looks like another umbrella blueprint, which could do with a sub blueprint that specifies what each resource should do | 20:16 |
| asalkeld | SpamapS, that behaviour is what we want | 20:16 |
| sdake | poc sounds good so people have a chance to see whats there | 20:16 |
| SpamapS | I wanted to spitball a few ideas here and get people thinking about it now. | 20:16 |
| asalkeld | no need for poc | 20:16 |
| asalkeld | just implement | 20:16 |
| zaneb | is this proposal somehow different from what AWS has already? | 20:16 |
| SpamapS | as I say in the description, I'm not sure whether a new field, UpdatePolicy, or a whole new resource type would be best. | 20:16 |
| SpamapS | zaneb: yes | 20:17 |
| zaneb | in what way? | 20:17 |
| shardy | SpamapS: I believe that behavior will be provided by the UpdateStack blueprint I have for instance resources | 20:17 |
| SpamapS | zaneb: as far as I can tell, AWS will not let you update an instance's userdata without at least rebooting (EBS) or at worst terminate/create(instance store) | 20:17 |
| asalkeld | aaaa | 20:17 |
| SpamapS | Its also not well defined what happens if you just update Metadata | 20:18 |
| asalkeld | yes userdata is readonly | 20:18 |
| shardy | SpamapS: we can just re-parse the template via UpdateStack and then update the instance metadata | 20:18 |
| shardy | that will then get picked up via cfn-hup | 20:18 |
| shardy | which AFAICT is exactly what AWS does | 20:18 |
| asalkeld | but can't you put your data into metadata | 20:18 |
| asalkeld | ya | 20:18 |
| asalkeld | userdata is bootup only | 20:18 |
| shardy | No, cfn hup reads the metadata via the CFN API now (or at least it can | 20:18 |
| SpamapS | So perhaps I just didn't read the AWS docs well.. I couldn't find anywhere that Metadata's update behavior was defined. | 20:19 |
| shardy | if you provide credentials it will poll the CFN API for metadata updates | 20:19 |
| zaneb | Update requires: | 20:19 |
| zaneb | Update requires: some interruptions (EBS-backed AMIs) | 20:19 |
| zaneb | Update requires: replacement (instance-store backed AMIs) | 20:19 |
| zaneb | AWS docs ^ | 20:19 |
| SpamapS | zaneb: for userdata, or metadata? | 20:19 |
| zaneb | UserData | 20:19 |
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| SpamapS | Yeah so I need it to not reboot or replace. | 20:19 |
| SpamapS | And I do think Metadata should be changable without replacement. Right? | 20:20 |
| asalkeld | the trick is to put as much as possible in the metadata | 20:20 |
| asalkeld | should be | 20:20 |
| asalkeld | yes | 20:20 |
| shardy | but what we call metadata internally (for AWS::Cloudformation::Init) is not the same as EC2 metadata | 20:20 |
| shardy | we send that metadata via user data, and it can be updated via the CFN API route described above | 20:20 |
| shardy | ie we can update the stuff done by cfn-init, but not cloud-init | 20:21 |
| asalkeld | you need to poll it using cfn-hup | 20:21 |
| SpamapS | shardy: yes I nyes, thats yes, the heat metadata is what I call it | 20:21 |
| SpamapS | sorry, lag issues here causing keyboard fail | 20:21 |
| sdake | ok, sounds like some debate about what can/can't be done - perhaps can sort out if this is already possible in #heat over the coming week and bring up for discussion next week? | 20:21 |
| shardy | asalkeld: yep, but we already have that, so we just need to implement the capability to update the metadata parsed as part of the AWS::Cloudformation::Init section of the intance definition in the template | 20:22 |
| SpamapS | Yes that sounds great | 20:22 |
| SpamapS | shardy: not just AWS::Cloudformation::Init though | 20:22 |
| SpamapS | shardy: the whole Metadata block | 20:22 |
| shardy | sdake: FWIW, I was planning to implement (or at least try to implement) this next week | 20:22 |
| sdake | #action heat devs to sort out if updatestack can update rather then delete in coming week | 20:22 |
| sdake | cool sounds good :) | 20:22 |
| SpamapS | Cool, I have cycles to help with this btw | 20:23 |
| shardy | SpamapS: Ok, lets pick this up and work together to figure it out :) | 20:23 |
| SpamapS | indeed | 20:23 |
| sdake | #topic open discussion | 20:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: heat)" | 20:23 | |
| sdake | ok good work on the bugs - making good progress | 20:23 |
| sdake | remember our deadline is t-4 weeks | 20:23 |
| sdake | need to fix the bugs and fix the blueprints by then | 20:23 |
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| sdake | if you have something assigned to you that isn't going to make it, earlier notification better then later | 20:24 |
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| SpamapS | I poked at a few. Not many unassigned.. will continue to sift through them though. | 20:24 |
| asalkeld | SpamapS, shardy another option is to support configdrive | 20:24 |
| SpamapS | asalkeld: not an option for my use case. | 20:24 |
| asalkeld | ok | 20:24 |
| SpamapS | nova baremetal may one day support configdrive.. | 20:24 |
| shardy | asalkeld: Not looked into that myself, was thinking, lets just use cfn-hup since we already have it working | 20:24 |
| SpamapS | but that would require some iscsi hackery that we haven't done yet | 20:24 |
| SpamapS | +1 cfn-hup is the way to go IMO | 20:25 |
| asalkeld | sure | 20:25 |
| sdake | if you have alot of bugs assigned to you (I think this applies mostly to shardy) might think about releasing some of the easier ones for new community members to take on | 20:26 |
| shardy | sdake: most of mine are pretty easy I think, should be OK but will check | 20:26 |
| sdake | ok - well up to you ;) | 20:26 |
| sdake | just dont need to work a million hours a week - community effort here | 20:26 |
| zaneb | SpamapS, shardy: http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSCloudFormation/latest/UserGuide/using-cfn-updating-stacks.html implies that a standard UpdateStack is always able to update metadata | 20:27 |
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| shardy | sdake: k, will release any I'm not confident I'll finish | 20:27 |
| sdake | ok any other open discussion? | 20:27 |
| asalkeld | nope | 20:28 |
| SpamapS | zaneb: lets discuss further in #heat :) | 20:28 |
| sdake | ok thanks guys short meeting today ftw ;) | 20:28 |
| sdake | #endmeeting | 20:28 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack" | 20:28 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Jan 23 20:28:38 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:28 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/heat/2013/heat.2013-01-23-20.00.html | 20:28 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/heat/2013/heat.2013-01-23-20.00.txt | 20:28 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/heat/2013/heat.2013-01-23-20.00.log.html | 20:28 |
| SpamapS | sdake: thanks for chairing | 20:28 |
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