Tuesday, 2016-05-17

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vilobhmm11#startmeeting quotas-wg17:02
openstackMeeting started Tue May 17 17:02:08 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is vilobhmm11. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.17:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: quotas-wg)"17:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'quotas_wg'17:02
vilobhmm11Courtesy quotas-wg meeting reminder: nikhil, vilobhmm, DuncanT, mc_nair, ninag, amrith17:02
amrith./17:02
vilobhmm11hi all17:02
thingeeo/17:02
DuncanTHi17:03
vilobhmm11hi thingee, amrith, DuncanT17:03
vilobhmm11we can get started17:03
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vilobhmm11#topic Updates17:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Updates (Meeting topic: quotas-wg)"17:04
vilobhmm11lets wait 2 more min for nikhil, harlowja, itisha17:04
DuncanTDo you have the link for the agenda, please?17:05
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vilobhmm11DuncanT : https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/quotas-wg-meeting-agenda17:05
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DuncanTThanks17:06
vilobhmm11alrite lets start17:07
vilobhmm11#1. Last week Delimiter was added to CI system : https://review.openstack.org/#/c/315232/17:07
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vilobhmm11its a good start since this helps us to get the CI support and we can follow the same methods for pushing/revieing/merging code as other projects do..17:08
vilobhmm11but even before that to make good progess we had set up travis to run nightly job https://github.com/vilobhmm/delimiter/commit/62b89b853b4e4a879e135bc8a24ec58ec5ea591c17:09
vilobhmm11so now since we have openstack ci we don't need travis anymore17:09
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vilobhmm11#. The project launchpad page is all set up17:09
vilobhmm11https://launchpad.net/delimiter17:09
vilobhmm11#2. ^^17:09
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vilobhmm11#3. Delimiter library is now under openstack umbrella https://github.com/openstack/delimiter17:10
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vilobhmm11#4. To get things started we have basic interface and support for zookeeper based driver https://github.com/openstack/delimiter/blob/master/delimiter/drivers/zookeeper.py17:10
vilobhmm11#5. For SQL based driver work is in progress and should be up for review this week17:11
vilobhmm11#6. We had interestring discussion on generation-id and how it should be used by the consumers of delimiter library here http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-May/095029.html just in case you missed it17:12
vilobhmm11We will have a document under delimiter/docs short doc to explain it to the consumers of library17:12
amrithvilobhmm11, I have two questions re: updates17:13
vilobhmm11thanks to amrith, jaypipes for there clear and concise explinations for #617:13
vilobhmm11amrith : sure17:13
vilobhmm11before the questions17:13
amriththe first is about the discussion at the oslo meeting yesterday and the second is about the irc chat with jay yesterday.17:13
vilobhmm11thats it about the updates for the library17:13
vilobhmm11for this week17:13
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vilobhmm11thingee, amrith, DuncanT : any questions , suggestions, feedback ?17:14
amrithyes, these two are updates.17:14
vilobhmm11ok17:14
amrith#7. oslo meeting yesterday17:14
vilobhmm11amrith : please proceed will take suggestion, feedback later17:14
amrith#8. irc chat with jaypipes yesterday17:14
DuncanTI need to read the linked thread some more, but it certainly helps17:14
amriththere appears to still be a signficant disconnect on the nature and scope of delimiter library17:14
amrithfor example, you ask about generation id's and things like that.17:15
amrithyet projects (example. Nova) feel that all that will be in the projects scope, not delimiter scope17:15
amrithso before going further, we need to all get on the same page about what the scope of delimiter is.17:15
vilobhmm11irc://irc.freenode.net:6667/#8. irc chat with jaypipes yesterday on openstack-dev between 3-4 EST17:15
amrithand whether consumers of the project would be interested in that converstaion.17:15
amrithalso whether consumers of the projectw would be interested in the outcome of the project.17:16
amrithcurrently, as described by jay for example, delimiter is not a very interesting project (i.e. what does it really do?)17:16
amrithhow do we propose to address that.17:17
vilobhmm11Thought about it yesterday17:18
vilobhmm11#1. to answer that everyone agrees that quota infrastructure is not in a good shape in projects using quota17:18
DuncanTamrith: It's in the project scope but a prerequisit for delimiter AFAICT17:19
vilobhmm11#2. projects may be don't want to spend time in investigating time in going for "no-reservation" based approach which the library provides17:19
vilobhmm11#3. support for quota calculation for hierarchical/non-hiearchical projects17:19
amrithDuncanT, please elaborate. What is in the project scope and prerequisite for delimiter?17:20
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vilobhmm11amrith : +117:20
vilobhmm11DuncanT : please elaborate17:20
amrithvilobhmm11, all of what you say fails to account for the fact that projects who want to use delimiter don't want to relinquish either the recording of the allocation or the actual process for consuming.17:21
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DuncanTamrith: Things like using generation ids17:21
amrithDuncanT, what about them?17:22
amriththey are, apparently, not in delimiter scope17:22
amriththat is part of the 'how projects record allocations'17:22
vilobhmm11amrith : will get back to that…listening to DuncanT now..17:22
DuncanTamrith: But they do seem to be a prerequisit17:22
amrithpreprequisite for whom?17:22
amrithfor the projects17:23
amrithdelimiter neither sees nor touches them17:23
DuncanTamrith: For projects that want to use delimiter17:23
amrithabsolutely not true17:23
amriththat's an example17:23
amrithof how nova wants to do things17:23
amriththey aren't prescriptive about it17:23
amrithfor example, jay says there's no guarantee that projects will store this data in a relational database.17:23
DuncanTamrith: I'm confused then about how else we can make things work, but I'm happy to wait to see code to a certain degree17:23
amrithand very clearly, the whole generation concept depends on a transactional rdbms.17:23
amrithDuncanT, did you read the chat with jay yesterday (3-4pm eastern)17:24
DuncanTI think if we go too far into what is possible then we never get anything actually usable17:24
DuncanTI have the log, I've not read it yet. I wouldn't take everything Jay says as gospel though.17:24
amrithI don't take anything, anyone says, as gospel, even if it is printed in a book17:25
amrithbut that aside.17:25
amrithhe is illustrative of a consumer17:25
amrithof the library17:25
amrithand he describes what he views as delimiter.17:25
amrithnow, if he is one ... what about others?17:26
amrithwhat do others expect of delimiter?17:26
amrithI've seen no other 'consumer' tell what they want17:26
DuncanTI'm one. What I most of all want right now is something less nebulous to talk about17:26
vilobhmm11DuncanT : what does that mean ?17:26
DuncanTI don't much care what scope delimiter chooses, I want to see if it produces something useful to the cinder project17:27
vilobhmm11since its cross project it would be nice to limit t scope beforehand and see if it works in a cross project sense17:27
vilobhmm11and not for a particular project otherwise we will have to go back-n-forth17:27
DuncanTSo what is the smallest possible scope we can start with? I'd say getting RDBMS working is absolutely needed for most existing deployments - cinder won't, I think, take anything that requires zookeeper, for example17:28
vilobhmm11amrith : to answer your question ; in the current design that few of us have discussed delimiter can be seen as a proxy where it doesn't own any data, neither it directly manipulates any data but just acts as a mediator17:28
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vilobhmm11amrith : delimiter needs to provide something more than just being a proxy for the calls and doing some computation based of the data provided by the consumers is what you are pointing to right ?17:29
nikhilhey guys, my previous meeting rolled over. sorry about the delay.17:30
vilobhmm11np nikhil17:30
vilobhmm11we are discussing about the scope for delimiter17:30
vilobhmm11and going through the discussion that jay and amrith had yesterday on openstack-dev 3-4 pm about the scope of delimiter17:30
nikhilThanks!17:31
vilobhmm11amrith : ^^17:32
vilobhmm11you there ?17:32
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vilobhmm11DuncanT : you there ?17:33
DuncanTYes17:33
vilobhmm11how will the solution proposed above will help17:33
nikhilI think we should be okay with the rdbms assumption17:34
nikhilmost projects default to that17:35
DuncanTI'm still trying to cartch up on the discussion yesterday and the email thread17:35
nikhiland I echo DuncanT that the ZK won't be acceptable to most projects by default and it can be good to have17:35
DuncanTBut I think we're running round in circles at the moment, and will be until we've got a PoC17:36
nikhil(I think good to have is just me)17:36
nikhilDuncanT: +117:36
vilobhmm11just wanted to see an alternative as generation concept depends on a transactional rdbms.17:36
vilobhmm11but for that delimiter should store generation-id17:37
vilobhmm11which it is not doing at this moment17:37
nikhilvilobhmm11: I think we should start with that approacha and then iterate over it17:37
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DuncanTFrom a cinder point of view, we're always going to have an rdbms, so I'm ok with that17:37
vilobhmm11ok17:37
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vilobhmm11#agenda  Tasks for this week17:38
vilobhmm11#1. Generation id documentation17:38
vilobhmm11#2. Internal object structure for delimiter - vilobhmm17:38
DuncanTWe don't use generations as a concept yet, and I'm still trying to figure their cost/benefit outside of quota management17:38
vilobhmm11DuncanT : is that targeted for Newton ?17:38
vilobhmm11for cinder usage of generation id17:39
nikhilI am wondering if sudipto and vilobhmm11 can pair on the gen_id documentation17:39
nikhilas I won't be reviewing it :-)17:39
DuncanTNot currently, we've no clear idea of the point, other than quota17:39
vilobhmm11sure that would be gr817:39
nikhilmy focus is the drivers17:39
vilobhmm11sudipto : if you can help it would be nice17:39
sudiptovilobhmm11, sure...17:39
vilobhmm11by next week if we have these 2 things sorted we should be in good shape17:40
DuncanTMigrating to generations on a live upgrade scenario looks challenging17:40
vilobhmm11I have also started working on the sql based driver17:40
* thingee has to disappear17:40
nikhilI wonder if we can extend the basic engine that doesn't have transactional guarantees now?17:40
vilobhmm11we have the initial template for zk based driver https://github.com/openstack/delimiter/blob/master/delimiter/drivers/zookeeper.py thanks to harlowja for that17:41
DuncanTHow can you use ZK without peppering ZK stuff all over the code? I've not got an understanding of that either17:41
nikhilvilobhmm11: I think it would be nice if we can just have the most simple driver for now17:42
nikhilDuncanT: it's a POC, we can iterate over it17:42
vilobhmm11DuncanT, nikhil: zk is just a placeholder17:42
vilobhmm11it won't be used17:42
nikhilvilobhmm11: for example, get_quota, set_quota, and delete_quota17:42
vilobhmm11it was something to startoff17:42
vilobhmm11the only driver that will be used whenever delimiter is used by a project is the sql driver17:43
nikhilvilobhmm11: without being transaction agnostic17:43
nikhilsorry, with being*17:43
vilobhmm11nikhil, DuncanT : ^^17:43
nikhilok17:43
vilobhmm11so getting SQL driver up and running is our top most priority!17:43
vilobhmm11and for that it will need the objects support etc which i plan to work on this week17:44
sudiptovilobhmm11, you can pull me in for any work you want to get done there.17:44
* sudipto is still catching up, but hopefully will be there soon17:45
vilobhmm11sudipto : sure will need you help here as well17:45
vilobhmm11thanks!17:45
vilobhmm11feel free to ping me if you have any queries17:45
vilobhmm11#topic open discussion17:45
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: quotas-wg)"17:45
nikhilare there any reviews ? :)17:46
vilobhmm11merged few of them yesterday17:46
vilobhmm11https://review.openstack.org/#/q/project:openstack/delimiter17:46
vilobhmm11everything that was out is merged now17:46
nikhillooks like all josh and all merged :)17:46
nikhilok17:46
vilobhmm11yup !17:46
nikhilI want to propose DuncanT and sudipto for core if they are interested ?17:47
DuncanTSure, thanks17:47
vilobhmm11cool17:47
sudiptoSure, thanks!17:47
vilobhmm11nice..welcome !17:48
vilobhmm11so just to recap17:48
vilobhmm11source : https://github.com/openstack/delimiter17:48
vilobhmm11launchpad : https://launchpad.net/delimiter17:48
DuncanTI suspect I won't provide much value until things have moved on slightly beyond where they are now and I've an actual picture in my head of what we're doing, but hopefully that is only a week or two away17:48
sudipto+1 DuncanT17:48
nikhilDuncanT: is your email first.last@gmail ?17:48
DuncanTYes17:49
nikhilsudipto: DuncanT for cores you only get a free ping for review :)17:49
vilobhmm11DuncanT : np..17:49
nikhildone17:50
nikhil#link https://review.openstack.org/#/admin/groups/1393,members17:50
vilobhmm11thanks nikhil17:50
nikhiland17:50
nikhilhttps://review.openstack.org/#/admin/groups/1394,members17:50
nikhilđź‘Ť17:50
nikhilping me for reviews, I would like to wrap my head around gen_id stuff this week17:51
DuncanTI'm much the same17:51
vilobhmm11Also to wrap up I would like to thank nikhil for representing delimiter and replying to all the ML thread and driving the CI related effort so precisely..thanks much nikhil..much appreciated17:51
vilobhmm11any other open discussion17:51
amrithsorry, I lost my internet connection for 20m17:52
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amrithDuncanT, vilobhmm11 I'm back. sorry abotu that17:52
vilobhmm11amrith : np we are about to wrap up…the open discussion is going on..17:53
nikhilđź‘Ť17:53
nikhilmy pleasure17:53
nikhilI do want us to be on the same page with jay as much as possible17:53
tbarrondid you guys resolve yet whether delimiter will track resource usage or whether that will be done by the project who use delimiter?17:53
nikhilbut to do that, I need to understand him more than gen_id ;-)17:53
tbarronapologies, but I am trying to catch up17:53
vilobhmm11tbarron : good question17:53
nikhiltbarron: usage is recorded in the project17:53
amrithDuncanT, are you open to a phone call right after?17:54
nikhiltbarron: calculated at the compute time by delimiter17:54
vilobhmm11delimiter will be passed in with project usage record by the consuming project17:54
nikhilvilobhmm11: ?17:54
DuncanTamrith: Yes17:54
nikhilvilobhmm11: if it's a simple number on the DB tables then I would agree.17:54
nikhilvilobhmm11: do we need to have any more info on the usages?17:54
vilobhmm11and delimiter will compute the quota…based on info provided as nikhil mentioned above17:55
nikhilok17:55
vilobhmm11tbarron : does that answer your question17:55
tbarronyes, at least at my current level of understanding17:55
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vilobhmm11in your case direct usage of # of volumes will be fetched from cinder.volumes17:56
vilobhmm11rather than relying on cinder.quota_usages17:56
tbarronand you are still thinking of using, say, keystone to hold the actual resource limits per project, subproject, etc.17:56
tbarron?17:56
vilobhmm11nope the actual resource limits per projects will be fetched from respective projects and not keystone17:56
vilobhmm11keystone does not want to be a single hub for all data17:57
nikhil(no, all data lives in the project DB tables except the tree hierarchy from keystone)17:57
vilobhmm11nikhil : +117:57
tbarronvilobhmm11: ok, so tree hierarchy from keystone, and delimiter would know how to compute based on that hierarchy?17:58
vilobhmm11tbarron : yes17:58
vilobhmm11it will compute even if there is no hierarchy17:58
tbarronvilobhmm11: sure17:58
vilobhmm11the objective is to comute irrespective of hiearchy or no hiearchy17:58
vilobhmm11tbarron : was that helpful ?17:59
tbarronyes, again at this level :)17:59
vilobhmm11ok17:59
tbarroni'm looking at manila quota reform :)17:59
vilobhmm11ok shouldn't be different than other projects17:59
tbarronso will be following with interest17:59
sudiptoI will dare look at it for Nova.17:59
vilobhmm11please drop you suggestions here https://review.openstack.org/#/c/284454/ tbarron would be happy to see your requirement18:00
vilobhmm11alrite thats it for this week18:00
vilobhmm11#endmeeting18:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"18:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue May 17 18:00:42 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)18:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/quotas_wg/2016/quotas_wg.2016-05-17-17.02.html18:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/quotas_wg/2016/quotas_wg.2016-05-17-17.02.txt18:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/quotas_wg/2016/quotas_wg.2016-05-17-17.02.log.html18:00
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nikhilvilobhmm11: thanks for the excellent meeting!!!18:01
nikhilwe're making progress :)18:01
vilobhmm11:)18:01
vilobhmm11we both need to co-ordinate to get the sql driver out as early as we can…will ping offline18:02
vilobhmm11nikhil : ^^18:02
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