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| rosmaita | Courtesy reminder: Cinder meeting in #openstack-meeting-4 at 1400 UTC | 13:57 |
|---|---|---|
| rosmaita | jungleboyj rosmaita smcginnis tosky whoami-rajat m5z e0ne geguileo eharney walshh_ jbernard ^^ | 13:57 |
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| rosmaita | #startmeeting cinder | 14:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Jan 15 14:00:04 2020 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is rosmaita. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'cinder' | 14:00 |
| rosmaita | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/cinder-ussuri-meetings | 14:00 |
| rosmaita | #topic roll call | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "roll call (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 14:00 | |
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| tosky | o/ | 14:00 |
| whoami-rajat | hi | 14:00 |
| whfnst17 | hi | 14:00 |
| enriquetaso | hi | 14:00 |
| m5z | hi :) | 14:01 |
| lseki | hi | 14:01 |
| jungleboyj | O/ | 14:01 |
| dviroel | hi | 14:01 |
| e0ne | hi | 14:01 |
| smcginnis | o/ | 14:01 |
| geguileo | hi! o/ | 14:01 |
| rosmaita | looks like a good turnout! | 14:01 |
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| rosmaita | #topic announcements | 14:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "announcements (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 14:03 | |
| rosmaita | some upcoming deadlines | 14:03 |
| LiangFang | hi | 14:03 |
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| rosmaita | spec freeze: 31 Jan 2020 (23:59 UTC) | 14:03 |
| rosmaita | new driver/new target driver must be merged by 13 February 2020 (23:59 UTC) | 14:03 |
| rosmaita | i should probably send out a reminder to the ML about that one | 14:03 |
| rosmaita | #action rosmaita send email about driver merge deadline | 14:04 |
| rosmaita | that same week we have Ussuri milestone-2: 13 February 2020 | 14:04 |
| rosmaita | other news | 14:04 |
| rosmaita | virtual mid-cycle part 1 next week on Tuesday 1300-1500 UTC | 14:04 |
| *** andrebeltrami has joined #openstack-meeting-4 | 14:04 | |
| rosmaita | thanks to everyone who participated in the poll to select the time/date | 14:05 |
| rosmaita | we'll be holding the meeting in bluejeans like we did for the virtual PTG | 14:05 |
| rosmaita | info is here: | 14:05 |
| rosmaita | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2020-January/011968.html | 14:05 |
| rosmaita | also, if you have specific items you want to discuss, please add them to the etherpad: | 14:06 |
| rosmaita | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/cinder-ussuri-mid-cycle-planning | 14:06 |
| rosmaita | ok, final announcement is a reminder | 14:06 |
| rosmaita | Voting for the 2020 Individual Directors of the OpenStack Foundation Board of Directors is now open and will remain open until Friday, January 17th, 2020 at 11:00am CST/1700 UTC | 14:06 |
| rosmaita | to vote, you have to use the link that is sent to you in your email | 14:07 |
| rosmaita | so i can't put a link here | 14:07 |
| rosmaita | and that's all the announcements | 14:07 |
| rosmaita | on to real business | 14:07 |
| smcginnis | Thanks for the reminder. ;) | 14:07 |
| jungleboyj | :-) | 14:07 |
| rosmaita | np | 14:07 |
| rosmaita | #topic Spec: Volume local cache | 14:08 |
| rosmaita | #link https://review.opendev.org/#/c/684556/ | 14:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Spec: Volume local cache (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 14:08 | |
| rosmaita | LiangFang: that's you! | 14:08 |
| rosmaita | i see you pushed an update, i haven't had time to look at it yet | 14:08 |
| geguileo | I've added more comments on the previous patch | 14:09 |
| LiangFang | yes, Gorka give lots of comments | 14:09 |
| geguileo | in response to LiangFang responses | 14:09 |
| LiangFang | most of the schedule things | 14:09 |
| LiangFang | corrently in flavor, no space for volume type | 14:10 |
| geguileo | so they cannot schedule it correctly? | 14:10 |
| LiangFang | yes | 14:10 |
| LiangFang | some work around | 14:10 |
| geguileo | then if os-brick just fails, it will be a nightmare | 14:11 |
| geguileo | users attaching volumes to nodes without cache won't know why they can't attach | 14:11 |
| geguileo | boot from cinder vol will fail until it lands on a node with cache (if there is one) | 14:11 |
| LiangFang | they can create the VM to the servers with cache capability | 14:12 |
| rosmaita | so they could define a flavor that has a cache? | 14:12 |
| LiangFang | I got the new laptop, and no dictionary installed yet:( | 14:12 |
| LiangFang | gibi said we can design the schedule later | 14:13 |
| rosmaita | you may answer this question on the current version, but i will ask it anyway | 14:13 |
| LiangFang | corrently use zone | 14:13 |
| LiangFang | currently use zone | 14:14 |
| LiangFang | or aggragate | 14:14 |
| geguileo | my concern is that this is going to be complicated for customers | 14:14 |
| LiangFang | so the VM can be scheduled to correct zone | 14:14 |
| rosmaita | is there a reason why a cacheable volume type *must* be cached? could we have it be cached if it lands on a compute that supports it (user picks the flavor for the VM), and not cached if user picks non-cache flavor? | 14:15 |
| geguileo | I think that's what's best right now | 14:16 |
| smcginnis | I would think if someone requested a volume to be cached, it could be confusing to them to end up with a volume that is not cached. | 14:16 |
| smcginnis | Especially if their service provider charges more for the cached volume types. | 14:16 |
| LiangFang | I talked with Alex (Nova core), he suggest to fail the request if not supported. | 14:16 |
| rosmaita | i was thinking of the caching as an attribute of the compute, not the volume | 14:17 |
| geguileo | LiangFang: do they have a way to report to the users why it failed? | 14:17 |
| geguileo | like we do with the user messages? | 14:17 |
| rosmaita | so the provider would charge more for a flavor with a cache | 14:17 |
| geguileo | rosmaita: makes sense to me | 14:17 |
| smcginnis | Not sure, but I could see that being a "premium" option. | 14:17 |
| rosmaita | because the nice thing about LiangFang's choice of open-cas (as opposed to bcache) is that it doesn't have to modify the volume at all | 14:18 |
| LiangFang | geguileo: we plan the throw exception, | 14:18 |
| rosmaita | so the volume itself could be attached anywhere | 14:18 |
| geguileo | LiangFang: that's useless for users | 14:18 |
| geguileo | only useful for admins | 14:18 |
| geguileo | rosmaita: I think you were onto something when you said cacheable should be a Nova attribute or something | 14:19 |
| eharney | i think some basics are missing about how this interacts w/ cinder features -- if using a write-back cache, how do you reliably use cinder snapshots, as a user? | 14:19 |
| geguileo | eharney: and live migrations must be disabled somehow | 14:19 |
| eharney | it would also affect consistency groups, backups, etc.. | 14:20 |
| smcginnis | eharney: Good point, we would need a hook for flushing cache. | 14:20 |
| eharney | but for snapshots, you don't have a way to even know if the data you want to snapshot was written | 14:20 |
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| geguileo | eharney: I believe that's the case for migrations as well, because the hypervisor would just flush and expect that to do what it's meant to do | 14:21 |
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| LiangFang | write-back indeed have data integrity issues | 14:21 |
| eharney | geguileo: right | 14:21 |
| LiangFang | for data integrity scenarios, they should choose write-through | 14:22 |
| eharney | i think we have to assume that data integrity is a priority in general | 14:22 |
| smcginnis | Kind of a base requirement for a storage service. | 14:23 |
| LiangFang | yes, so in most case, write-through is selected by default | 14:24 |
| rosmaita | well, if you use a cache, you sometimes want to trade off speed for data integrity | 14:24 |
| LiangFang | write-through is also the default cache mode of open-cas | 14:25 |
| rosmaita | but we could decide to support only those modes that ensure data integrity | 14:25 |
| rosmaita | so the speed boost would be mostly for subsequent reads | 14:25 |
| rosmaita | which is still a plus | 14:25 |
| eharney | rosmaita: sure, but to enable that trade-off we need a mechanism to make sure that things like live migration don't fall apart | 14:25 |
| rosmaita | eharney: ++ | 14:26 |
| eharney | and i think the spec doesn't cover such concerns yet | 14:26 |
| LiangFang | should we write this note in manual page? | 14:27 |
| LiangFang | e.g. tell operator, if you choose write-back, then cannot live migration | 14:28 |
| geguileo | LiangFang: that's not good enough, because users and admins are different people | 14:28 |
| rosmaita | either that, or we don't allow anything other than write-through for now | 14:28 |
| rosmaita | geguileo: ++ | 14:28 |
| rosmaita | LiangFang: if we only allowed write-through mode, would that make this feature useless? | 14:29 |
| LiangFang | rosmaita: then only read io could be boost | 14:29 |
| geguileo | rosmaita: we wouldn't know the mode they have actually selected | 14:29 |
| geguileo | because it's configured outside of openstack | 14:30 |
| rosmaita | geguileo: that's true | 14:30 |
| geguileo | but we can document why those modes are not supported | 14:30 |
| rosmaita | yes, that's what i was going to say | 14:30 |
| rosmaita | so we leave it up to the operator how to handle this | 14:31 |
| geguileo | if we document it then admins can ignore it and just be careful in those situations (I'm fine with that) | 14:31 |
| rosmaita | because, if they do a flavor, they could have cache in xxx-mode, another flavor cache in yyy-mode | 14:31 |
| rosmaita | and then the user picks which flavor to use depending on how risk-averse they are | 14:31 |
| geguileo | that changes the approach we had | 14:32 |
| geguileo | but I like it | 14:32 |
| geguileo | not being a Cinder volume thing | 14:32 |
| geguileo | except for the cacheable <is> True part | 14:32 |
| rosmaita | right, we are back to just 'cacheable' for volume-type | 14:32 |
| geguileo | because there are backends that don't support caching in OpenStack | 14:33 |
| rosmaita | I really think the way to go is that 'cacheable' means that this volume *could* be cached if it lands on the correct hypervisor | 14:33 |
| geguileo | so in the end Nova decides where to schedule, what mode it wants, etc | 14:33 |
| geguileo | rosmaita: on Cinder side yes | 14:34 |
| geguileo | rosmaita: it would be True by default and we would return False on RBD and RemoteFS | 14:34 |
| eharney | having "cacheable <is> True" seems like it assumes we could swap a different caching tool in later when we support a second one, do we know if that's the case? (it's not if part of your data is stored in an open-cas writeback cache..) | 14:34 |
| rosmaita | it really seems like we need some "live" discussion of this | 14:35 |
| geguileo | eharney: you are talking about in-use retype? migrate? | 14:35 |
| eharney | geguileo: talking about making sure we don't get stuck when we try to add another cache system into Cinder later | 14:36 |
| smcginnis | Definitely a midcycle topic I think. | 14:36 |
| geguileo | eharney: because cacheable only means, from Cinder perspective, that there is a /dev/xyz device that can be used by the cache system | 14:36 |
| geguileo | eharney: I don't think we would get stuck on a second one | 14:36 |
| eharney | geguileo: ok, so the implication for the future is that even if we have multiple cache drivers, you can only use one in a deployment, then? | 14:36 |
| geguileo | eharney: wouldn't that be a Nova thing? | 14:37 |
| eharney | geguileo: i'm not sure it would be | 14:37 |
| geguileo | how so? r:-?? | 14:37 |
| eharney | are we using this cache during reimage? image->volume? backup? | 14:37 |
| LiangFang | if the cache mode is hard coded to write-through, then even in future there's a different cache software, it still works | 14:38 |
| rosmaita | LiangFang: when is the nova spec deadline? | 14:38 |
| eharney | i think the spec needs to spell out more about the interactions between cinder/nova and the cache | 14:38 |
| geguileo | eharney: +1 | 14:38 |
| LiangFang | rosmaita: sorry, I know very near, but don't know the date | 14:39 |
| jungleboyj | eharney: ++ | 14:39 |
| rosmaita | i couldn't find the date either | 14:39 |
| rosmaita | i think we really need to discuss this at the midcycle so we can give you specific things that need to be addressed, and so that we can determine what these specific things are | 14:39 |
| LiangFang | eharney: the cache is only in compute node | 14:40 |
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| eharney | LiangFang: if so, that has implications for how backups work | 14:40 |
| jungleboyj | rosmaita: ++ | 14:40 |
| LiangFang | rosmaita: ok. thanks | 14:40 |
| eharney | and reimage, etc | 14:40 |
| geguileo | Feb 10 - Feb 14: Ussuri-2 milestone, nova spec freeze | 14:41 |
| geguileo | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Nova/Ussuri_Release_Schedule | 14:41 |
| rosmaita | i think eric is bringing up some good points that we need to think about whether they impact your spec or not | 14:41 |
| rosmaita | geguileo: thanks | 14:41 |
| LiangFang | if the cache mode is write-through, then from cinder point of view, seems can ignore it, but all the data is backend volume | 14:41 |
| rosmaita | so it looks like if we can get this discussed on Tuesday, we can get it hammered out next week and there will still be some time on the nova side | 14:41 |
| rosmaita | especially if we push the idea of putting the cache as a flavor instead of into the scheduler | 14:42 |
| rosmaita | but we can discuss on Tuesday | 14:42 |
| rosmaita | LiangFang: i believe you will be available for the midcycle on tuesday? | 14:42 |
| LiangFang | yes:) | 14:43 |
| rosmaita | great! | 14:43 |
| LiangFang | it's my first time to join | 14:43 |
| LiangFang | I tried this afternoon:) | 14:43 |
| rosmaita | were you able to access bluejeans? | 14:43 |
| LiangFang | https://bluejeans.com/3228528973 | 14:44 |
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| LiangFang | yes, as guest | 14:44 |
| rosmaita | ok, great | 14:44 |
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| LiangFang | but I don't know how to register an account | 14:44 |
| rosmaita | LiangFang: i think you have to be a guest | 14:44 |
| LiangFang | OK | 14:44 |
| rosmaita | it's a paid service | 14:44 |
| LiangFang | ok | 14:45 |
| rosmaita | (our use is courtesy of Red Hat) | 14:45 |
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| rosmaita | ok, let's wrap up with everyone please read through the spec before the midcycle so we all are ready to discuss | 14:45 |
| LiangFang | thanks the discussion today, I will read the chat log later, because I may have not got all the points | 14:46 |
| rosmaita | ok, great, and you can ask in IRC also if things aren't clear | 14:46 |
| LiangFang | ok | 14:46 |
| rosmaita | #topic Update on community goal "Drop Python 2.7 Support" | 14:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Update on community goal "Drop Python 2.7 Support" (Meeting topic: cinder)" | 14:46 | |
| rosmaita | as is my wont, i put together an etherpad for this: | 14:47 |
| rosmaita | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/cinder-ussuri-community-goal-drop-py27-support | 14:47 |
| rosmaita | is xuanyandong here by any chance? | 14:47 |
| rosmaita | anyway, if you look at the etherpad, we are mostly OK except for cinderclient | 14:48 |
| eharney | the cinder-tempest-plugin question is interesting | 14:48 |
| rosmaita | eharney: yes, thanks for the reminder about that | 14:48 |
| rosmaita | i was hoping tosky might know | 14:49 |
| smcginnis | Tempest is dropping support too. | 14:49 |
| smcginnis | So though it's branchless, that's part of why they are still tagged. | 14:49 |
| eharney | so do we mark the plugin to only work with sufficiently new versions of tempest, or, what? | 14:49 |
| eharney | i guess we can just do that in requirements.txt | 14:49 |
| smcginnis | Yeah, since we don't have a lower-constraints file, I guess it would be there. | 14:50 |
| eharney | but the plugin is branchless, so then you have to pin jobs for stable branches too i guess? | 14:50 |
| smcginnis | But I'm not sure it needs to be strictly enforced in code. | 14:50 |
| smcginnis | It's a little on the consumer to get the right tempest plugin for the given tempest version. | 14:50 |
| smcginnis | Tagging of those are done to be able to match up what versions go together. | 14:51 |
| eharney | let's say we're the consumer in the stable/stein gate jobs :) | 14:51 |
| smcginnis | It *should* be using the stein plugin with the stein tempest, but I'm not entirely sure there. | 14:51 |
| tosky | eharney: no, tempest is going to run with python3 even on older branch | 14:51 |
| tosky | and the plugins are going to be used from master as well | 14:52 |
| eharney | oh | 14:52 |
| smcginnis | Oh right, because the tempest runtime doesn't matter. | 14:52 |
| tosky | tempest runs in its own venv, and the plugins are installed there | 14:52 |
| smcginnis | That's separate from the service runtime. | 14:52 |
| eharney | that works then | 14:52 |
| tosky | but yeah, the support for py2 should be removed as soon as all the consumers of cinder-tempest-plugin are not testing with py2 anymore | 14:53 |
| smcginnis | The python-cinderclient functional failure is odd. Looks like the project isn't being installed so it's not finding the cinder command. | 14:53 |
| rosmaita | yeah, ignore that result | 14:53 |
| rosmaita | i am having duelling patch sets with xuanyandon | 14:54 |
| tosky | re python-cinderclient: if we run out of time, just revert to the in-tree playbook for now and we can figure it out later | 14:54 |
| rosmaita | yeah, i am going to do what tosky suggests this afternoon | 14:54 |
| rosmaita | smcginnis: i fixed the missing /bin/cinder | 14:55 |
| rosmaita | ok, so it looks like the cinder-tempest-plugin is already using py3 as its basepython | 14:56 |
| rosmaita | i think we are ok there | 14:57 |
| whfnst17 | Does this mean that drivers should also start abandoning py2? | 14:57 |
| smcginnis | whfnst17: They can, but there isn't a priority to remove compatibility code. | 14:57 |
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| whfnst17 | ok | 14:57 |
| rosmaita | only remaining issue is Thing 5 on that etherpad | 14:58 |
| rosmaita | update setup.cfg to *require* py36 | 14:58 |
| rosmaita | that's the thing nova did in november that broke everything | 14:58 |
| rosmaita | but we should be in a better place now | 14:58 |
| eharney | it does sound like the right thing to do, but i don't know a lot about possible side effects | 14:59 |
| rosmaita | but i imagine that will be one of those bot-proposed items for all repos | 14:59 |
| rosmaita | so i don't think we need to do it? | 14:59 |
| smcginnis | I don't think so. | 14:59 |
| rosmaita | ok, cool | 14:59 |
| rosmaita | well, sorry that we are out of time for open discussion | 14:59 |
| rosmaita | see everyone on Tuesday at the virtual mid-cycle! | 15:00 |
| smcginnis | I think there's a difference between saying we don't support py2, and actually enforcing in code that it's absolutely disallowed. | 15:00 |
| smcginnis | Or even for py35. | 15:00 |
| rosmaita | smcginnis: that makes sense | 15:00 |
| rosmaita | #endmeeting | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/" | 15:00 | |
| whoami-rajat | Thanks everyone! | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Jan 15 15:00:27 2020 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cinder/2020/cinder.2020-01-15-14.00.html | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cinder/2020/cinder.2020-01-15-14.00.txt | 15:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/cinder/2020/cinder.2020-01-15-14.00.log.html | 15:00 |
| enriquetaso | bye! | 15:00 |
| jungleboyj | Thanks! | 15:00 |
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