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| rosmaita | Courtesy meeting reminder on #openstack-meeting-4: ativelkov, cpallares, flaper87, flwang1, hemanthm, jokke_, kragniz, lakshmiS, mclaren, mfedosin, nikhil_k, Nikolay_St, Olena, pennerc, rosmaita, sigmavirus24, sabari, TravT, ajayaa, GB21, bpoulos, harshs, abhishek, bunting, dshakhray, wxy, dhellmann, kairat, aavraham, alex_bash | 13:58 |
| jokke_ | o/ | 13:59 |
| dharinic | \o | 13:59 |
| abhishek_k | o/ | 13:59 |
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| rosmaita | too soon, hasn't started yet! | 13:59 |
| rosmaita | #startmeeting glance | 14:00 |
| sigmavirus | o/ | 14:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Dec 22 14:00:07 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is rosmaita. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: glance)" | 14:00 | |
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| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'glance' | 14:00 |
| rosmaita | #topic roll call | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "roll call (Meeting topic: glance)" | 14:00 | |
| rosmaita | ok, now everyone can say hi | 14:00 |
| sigmavirus | o/ | 14:00 |
| abhishek_k | once again o/ | 14:00 |
| dharinic | \o | 14:00 |
| alex_bash | o/ | 14:00 |
| jokke_ | o/ | 14:00 |
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| stevelle | o/ | 14:01 |
| rosmaita | i see our light meeting has been given some content by stevelle and dharinic | 14:01 |
| rosmaita | just a reminder of where the agenda is: | 14:02 |
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| rosmaita | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-team-meeting-agenda | 14:02 |
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| rosmaita | #topic updates | 14:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "updates (Meeting topic: glance)" | 14:02 | |
| rosmaita | don't forget no meeting next week | 14:02 |
| sigmavirus | s/don't forget/remember/ | 14:02 |
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| rosmaita | remember not to forget | 14:03 |
| rosmaita | i've been away and haven't looked through all of the priorities, but i did see some action on some of the patches | 14:03 |
| rosmaita | i'll send out a new list later today | 14:04 |
| rosmaita | ok, might as well move onto the big issue of the day | 14:04 |
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| rosmaita | #topic Community Images feature is blocked by Tempest tests | 14:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Community Images feature is blocked by Tempest tests (Meeting topic: glance)" | 14:04 | |
| rosmaita | so, i cleared this with operators and the api wg | 14:04 |
| rosmaita | didn't realize tempest was the guardian of truth | 14:05 |
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| rosmaita | anyway, stevelle, you have the floor | 14:05 |
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| stevelle | right, so we are hard blocked on community images work | 14:05 |
| jokke_ | they should not be ... so IMO if they are not willing to a) fix their tests, b) revert it we have option c) to drop it from the glance tests | 14:06 |
| rosmaita | i am on board with jokke_ , but stevelle seems a bit more sympathetic | 14:06 |
| rosmaita | stevelle: should we take 5 min to read what you put on the agenda? | 14:06 |
| rosmaita | or would you rather talk us through it? | 14:06 |
| * jokke_ just had read through it from the agenda | 14:07 | |
| stevelle | it would be best to read through what I put in the agenda, but I can quickly summarize | 14:07 |
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| stevelle | a recently-added tempest test, prevent's timothy's patch set from passing the gate clean | 14:07 |
| jokke_ | IMO this is pretty clear ... it should not be tempest's call and if they think it is, we just drop tempest off from glance CI | 14:07 |
| stevelle | wow, typing badly today :) | 14:08 |
| stevelle | I presented 3 options to proceed | 14:09 |
| stevelle | 1) we argue with tempest cores, and assemble the evidence to support it | 14:09 |
| sigmavirus | jokke_: I disagree, but that's a separate topic | 14:09 |
| dharinic | tiny clarification. Actually, Timothys PS passed the gate clean. After we added the migration part, the tempests failed cos the new tempest tests were added at a later time (just before migration with visibility was added to CI) | 14:10 |
| stevelle | 2) we actually start to implement microversion support (api-wg flavor, which is the nova flavor) for this change | 14:10 |
| stevelle | 3) we back up and modify the spec and impl again to do something which I seem to recall jokke_ suggested several weeks ago | 14:11 |
| rosmaita | i dont' think we want to do option 2 this late in the cycle | 14:11 |
| alex_bash | -1 on 2) | 14:11 |
| jokke_ | 2) is not an option to unblock this work | 14:12 |
| sigmavirus | jokke_: actually it is, because if we actually implemented microversions correctly (allowing users to request old behaviour based on the version) then this wouldn't be an issue | 14:12 |
| sigmavirus | But we don't | 14:12 |
| sigmavirus | We have "microversions" in that we bump the version of the API when we change things and users be damned | 14:13 |
| rosmaita | we have milliversions | 14:13 |
| sigmavirus | (I've been saying this for a while now) | 14:13 |
| jokke_ | sigmavirus: as we do not do microversions ;) | 14:13 |
| jokke_ | we just have minor version number in our API version to indicate that something has changed | 14:13 |
| rosmaita | stevelle: quick question | 14:13 |
| rosmaita | if the migration put all images into 'shared', the tempest tests would pass? | 14:14 |
| rosmaita | not all, but you know what i mean | 14:14 |
| jokke_ | there has been no agreement nor even discussions of moving Glance to microversions and I'd be not fond of having that discussion now either | 14:14 |
| sigmavirus | jokke_: but when a user sees the listing of versions, v2.{N-1} is listed as supported, which is a lie | 14:14 |
| rosmaita | sigmavirus: it's supported, just not enthusiastically | 14:14 |
| stevelle | rosmaita: no, the test is not a migration test. it is a new-images thing | 14:14 |
| rosmaita | ok, got it | 14:15 |
| rosmaita | so the problem is that they are creating an image with --visibility private | 14:15 |
| rosmaita | and then trying to share it | 14:15 |
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| rosmaita | so you said, they shoudl just create a "default" image | 14:15 |
| stevelle | yes | 14:15 |
| rosmaita | and they said, | 14:15 |
| rosmaita | well, i won't give an interpretation | 14:15 |
| rosmaita | ok | 14:15 |
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| stevelle | they said we're breaking the api | 14:16 |
| dharinic | and making it backward incompatible | 14:16 |
| stevelle | and tempest is stopping us from doing that. | 14:16 |
| rosmaita | we're fixing a bug in the implementation | 14:16 |
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| jokke_ | well we have known all the time that we are breaking the API and that was agreed acceptable with multiple stakeholders | 14:17 |
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| sigmavirus | jokke_: right, tempest didn't have that information | 14:18 |
| stevelle | if we have ample supporting evidence to point to, gmann grudgingly acknowledged that they would look at that and reconsider a solution that was more focused than what I submitted | 14:18 |
| rosmaita | well, it looks like we try option 1, then | 14:18 |
| jokke_ | sigmavirus: judging the timeline they made these new tests, I'm pretty sure they did and they just didn't bother to participate to the conversation | 14:18 |
| sigmavirus | jokke_: so you think tempest did this ... to hamper our development efforts? That's rather pessimistic, even for you | 14:19 |
| rosmaita | let's try option 1 first, and then we can try jokke_ 's "nuclear option" | 14:19 |
| sigmavirus | tempest is a large part of the interoperability team's efforts | 14:19 |
| rosmaita | i thought that was refstack, but we are getting off topic here | 14:19 |
| jokke_ | sigmavirus: what you just said ^^ | 14:19 |
| sigmavirus | This is documenting, for lack of a better term, our current API behaviour for interoperability in a way that interop can use | 14:19 |
| stevelle | having spent hours looking at this, I don't believe it is fair to suggest this test landing was anything more than a coincidence | 14:20 |
| jokke_ | Would not be first time these guys are jumping on something we try to do and not listening reasoning ;) | 14:20 |
| rosmaita | ok, let's break this up into work items | 14:20 |
| sigmavirus | jokke_: yeah, I thoroughly disagree and I think you're being entirely inappropriate in your characterizations of those team members | 14:20 |
| rosmaita | i can draft a message to tempest team | 14:20 |
| rosmaita | with refs to all the ML, patch, API-WG meeting discussions | 14:21 |
| rosmaita | i will need stevelle and dharinic to review | 14:21 |
| rosmaita | plus anyone else who's interested | 14:21 |
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| jokke_ | sigmavirus: Other option is that they are doing new tests without having a single word with the team affected nor looking into the specs on flight and I doubt the guys are that naive/stupid, so I rather believe it was intentional ;) | 14:21 |
| rosmaita | so i guess i will draft on an etherpad? | 14:21 |
| alex_bash | rosmaita: yes, I'm interested | 14:22 |
| rosmaita | ok, good | 14:22 |
| dharinic | sure rosmaita. | 14:22 |
| rosmaita | what is people's availability today? | 14:22 |
| dharinic | I am available | 14:22 |
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| rosmaita | #action rosmaita draft message to tempest team | 14:23 |
| stevelle | I expect to be around, but have some errands to run | 14:23 |
| alex_bash | I'm technically on vacation, but will be popping in | 14:23 |
| rosmaita | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-ocata-community-images-tempest-imbroglio | 14:23 |
| jokke_ | rosmaita: I was hoping to ~ start my X-mas holidays (have few things I will try to work through tonight/tomorrow around the import workflow) after I get the hour long meeting wrapped I have after this | 14:24 |
| rosmaita | sigmavirus: i guess we direct the result to the dev list with [glance][tempest] in the submect line | 14:24 |
| sigmavirus | jokke_: maybe they didn't look at specs because they'd never expect a project like Glance to break the API behaviour in the same major version? | 14:24 |
| sigmavirus | rosmaita: yes, I'd agree with that | 14:24 |
| rosmaita | sigmavirus: if they didn't expect weird stuff from glance ... then they can't have been around openstack very long | 14:24 |
| rosmaita | jokke_: ok, that's fine, i think we have enough people | 14:25 |
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| sigmavirus | rosmaita: to be fair, Glance attracts very little cross-project attention | 14:26 |
| rosmaita | writing stuff always takes me longer than i expect, so i will aim to have this done by 15:30utc | 14:26 |
| sigmavirus | People leave us alone until we do weird shit and then we work with them to fix it and then they disappear | 14:26 |
| rosmaita | i will put a note at the top of the etherpad indicating if i'm still writing and it's not ready yet | 14:26 |
| jokke_ | sigmavirus: I just find it quite incredible that it would be coincidence of ignorance and chance that they happen to implment these tests just after we have had huge discussion over multiple mailing lists and over that spec and got finally to the point that we have to do minor breakage to make sure that the future usability is reasonable ... and they write the exactly on the way that it will br | 14:27 |
| jokke_ | eak, not like it would have been convenient to write the test | 14:27 |
| rosmaita | #action stevelle dharinic alex_bash to look at etherpad around 16:00 utc | 14:27 |
| rosmaita | (and anyone else, of course, but those are the committed parties) | 14:28 |
| rosmaita | sigmavirus: if you have time, definitely could use your input | 14:28 |
| rosmaita | i will probably have to write 2 versions, the second one with all the bad language removed | 14:28 |
| rosmaita | but i digress | 14:28 |
| rosmaita | stevelle: thanks for your work on this | 14:29 |
| stevelle | with the time gap before next meeting, do we have a limit on the time we want to take for option 1? | 14:29 |
| rosmaita | stevelle: excellent question | 14:29 |
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| rosmaita | problem is, they will be on vacation too | 14:29 |
| rosmaita | if option 1 fails, we will go for option 3, i guess? | 14:31 |
| sigmavirus | rosmaita: absolutely | 14:31 |
| rosmaita | any idea how much time those code changes will absorb? | 14:31 |
| sigmavirus | I think if we remove tempest from our gate, we'll really invoke the ire of the community | 14:31 |
| rosmaita | well, i'm not opposed to doing it short-term as a kind of statement ... but only if they are completely unreasonable in rejection option 1 | 14:32 |
| stevelle | option 3 was, to reiterate, migrate images from private to shared when a member is added | 14:32 |
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| rosmaita | yes, it would basically allow member operations on a 'private' image, and change the visibility to shared at the same time | 14:33 |
| stevelle | option 2 was to do that on the base v2 api with microversions and retain our agreed on behavior forward | 14:33 |
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| sigmavirus | rosmaita: I don't think they will reject option 1 or be unreasonable | 14:33 |
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| sigmavirus | If they do object to that, though, then having a temporary version of option 3 is a good idea | 14:33 |
| alex_bash | tempirary? | 14:34 |
| sigmavirus | If not only from the tempest perspective but also from user experience for transitioning to a version of Glance's API they didn't get to pick | 14:34 |
| stevelle | dharinic: do you have any feel for the time the code changes would take? | 14:34 |
| sigmavirus | alex_bash: as in have behaviour that does the auto-transition that is temporary and document that it is transitional behaviour that disappears in queens | 14:34 |
| dharinic | Not too sure stevelle. But since I will be available through this year, i can work on it at a decent pace | 14:34 |
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| sigmavirus | 2 is not reasonable for the timelines in Ocata | 14:35 |
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| stevelle | I'm in agreement on option 2 being problematic for process, but if we were looking at the beginning of a 6 month cycle I would feel differently | 14:35 |
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| rosmaita | stevelle: me too | 14:36 |
| * alex_bash really hopes option 1 works | 14:36 | |
| rosmaita | sigmavirus: i dont' like the idea of the "transitional" behavior | 14:36 |
| jokke_ | alex_bash: ++ | 14:36 |
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| jokke_ | rosmaita: sigmavirus: me neither | 14:36 |
| sigmavirus | stevelle: right, I think option 2 should be a thing for Pike in general | 14:36 |
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| jokke_ | I think doing stuff like that is worse than honestly breaking something for good reason | 14:36 |
| rosmaita | sigmavirus: take an action item to present a session at the design summit? | 14:37 |
| sigmavirus | jokke_: I think we all agree option 3 is bad from a Community Images perspective | 14:37 |
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| sigmavirus | rosmaita: won't make it | 14:37 |
| rosmaita | arrrrrrrrgh | 14:37 |
| sigmavirus | would probably have to pay my own way or find a new employer that would send me | 14:37 |
| * sigmavirus shrugs | 14:37 | |
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| rosmaita | #action someone start thinking about putting together a PTG session on microversioning glance | 14:37 |
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| rosmaita | ok, anything else on this topic? | 14:39 |
| jokke_ | rosmaita: please keep us up to date on mailing list | 14:39 |
| stevelle | as for community images... | 14:39 |
| * jokke_ will keep eye for that over the holidays | 14:40 | |
| rosmaita | jokke_: will do | 14:40 |
| jokke_ | or who ever is on this meanwhile | 14:40 |
| * jokke_ is expecting rosmaita having some time off as well | 14:40 | |
| stevelle | the only thing that the current patch set fails, with respect to our current spec, is this added tempest test. | 14:40 |
| dharinic | yes. | 14:40 |
| dharinic | 1 tempest test. | 14:40 |
| stevelle | if folks want to review it tentatively, that would be helpful | 14:40 |
| stevelle | dharinic has fixed the migrations | 14:41 |
| jokke_ | stevelle: thanks, I'll see if I have energy to read it through at some point | 14:41 |
| jokke_ | thanks dharinic ! | 14:41 |
| sigmavirus | I'll look at it today before I leave I hope | 14:41 |
| rosmaita | me three | 14:41 |
| sigmavirus | I'm off Friday through Jan 2. And will be sans computer | 14:41 |
| sigmavirus | (Tomorrow Friday) | 14:41 |
| dharinic | was altering between 2 different migrations models and the latest PS has the better efficient one i guess | 14:41 |
| * sigmavirus will be watching the mailing list thoug | 14:42 | |
| dharinic | awesome | 14:42 |
| rosmaita | how is this for the subject line to watch: | 14:42 |
| rosmaita | [glance][tempest] community images, tempest tests, and API stability | 14:42 |
| dharinic | Thanks stevelle and jokke_ | 14:42 |
| jokke_ | rosmaita: sounds good | 14:43 |
| dharinic | tempest test* probably? | 14:43 |
| alex_bash | when reviewing CI patch, might be prudent to diff with set 53 | 14:43 |
| alex_bash | that was Timothy's last PS which was nearly +A'd | 14:44 |
| sigmavirus | alex_bash: or diff against master if one hasn't looked at it at all | 14:44 |
| rosmaita | alex_bash: thanks, good suggestion | 14:44 |
| sigmavirus | because reviewing the whole patch rather than minor modifications is also valuable | 14:44 |
| jokke_ | ++ | 14:44 |
| stevelle | we should probably throw together an alternate review for tempest since we want to try that again? | 14:45 |
| jokke_ | we have 16min left ... should we move forwards? | 14:45 |
| sigmavirus | jokke_: let's | 14:45 |
| rosmaita | ok, next topic is open discussion | 14:45 |
| rosmaita | #topic open discussion | 14:45 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: glance)" | 14:45 | |
| rosmaita | so, let's set some tentative times for this tempest situation | 14:45 |
| rosmaita | i will aim to have draft ready at 16:00 utc today | 14:46 |
| rosmaita | will everyone have time then to look & comment? | 14:46 |
| rosmaita | would be good to have a comment deadline | 14:46 |
| sigmavirus | that's 1 hour from now, yes? | 14:47 |
| sigmavirus | I'll definitely have time to review it | 14:47 |
| rosmaita | right | 14:47 |
| rosmaita | cool | 14:47 |
| rosmaita | stevelle: alex_bash: ? | 14:47 |
| stevelle | ok | 14:47 |
| alex_bash | +1 | 14:47 |
| rosmaita | so, say review & comment before 18:00 utc? | 14:47 |
| dharinic | cool | 14:48 |
| alex_bash | sounds good | 14:48 |
| stevelle | yes | 14:49 |
| rosmaita | ok, great, thanks | 14:49 |
| jokke_ | sorry I dropped | 14:49 |
| rosmaita | jokke_: np | 14:50 |
| jokke_ | and sorry I didn't realize that this was literally only topic we had in our list even I read through it ;) | 14:50 |
| rosmaita | :) | 14:50 |
| rosmaita | any other discussion? | 14:50 |
| dharinic | One question | 14:50 |
| rosmaita | sure | 14:50 |
| dharinic | Not related to CI | 14:50 |
| dharinic | I had put up a patch https://review.openstack.org/#/c/401391/ | 14:51 |
| stevelle | oh yeah, rosmaita you should pick some new review priority items | 14:51 |
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| stevelle | and update the #openstack-glance topic with them | 14:51 |
| jokke_ | I was hoping I had the import pathes up before this meeting ... well I didn't so I'm working on it | 14:52 |
| dharinic | that allows replacing of specific list entries on "locations" and "tags" for images. kairat pointed out that we need api-wg recommendation | 14:52 |
| rosmaita | i don't think so | 14:52 |
| jokke_ | still trying to have X-Mas preset for the folks and getting the WIPs to gerrit before weekend | 14:52 |
| dharinic | the bug for which that patch was put up is : https://bugs.launchpad.net/glance/+bug/1521607 | 14:52 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1521607 in Glance "v2 - replacing array elements with PATCH results in 400 error" [Medium,In progress] - Assigned to Dharini Chandrasekar (dharini-chandrasekar) | 14:52 |
| dharinic | needed some inputs | 14:52 |
| rosmaita | we already have the tags operations | 14:52 |
| rosmaita | http://developer.openstack.org/api-ref/image/v2/index.html#image-tags | 14:52 |
| rosmaita | so i see this change as orthogonal to kairat's issue | 14:53 |
| rosmaita | we have 2 ways to handle tags | 14:53 |
| rosmaita | the resource-in-the-url way, and PATCH | 14:53 |
| dharinic | This was to replace individual tag elements in a list using PATCH rather than giving the whole list | 14:53 |
| dharinic | I was working on the PATCH | 14:54 |
| stevelle | numeric 0-based index is the rfc6902 way? I need to review that one I guess | 14:54 |
| dharinic | sigmavirus and rosmaita: you guys had commented on the bug report | 14:54 |
| rosmaita | dharinic: i can't remember that far back | 14:54 |
| dharinic | that glance does not support rfc 6902 entirely | 14:55 |
| sigmavirus | dharinic: right, because someone thought it was a good idea for us to implement it ourselves rather than use a library that's already in g-r | 14:55 |
| dharinic | comments 7 and 8 | 14:55 |
| sigmavirus | I'm still in favor of properly fixing this bug | 14:56 |
| sigmavirus | And the related bugs | 14:56 |
| rosmaita | so this brings up the question of changing libraries | 14:57 |
| dharinic | cool. Would like some reviews on this at all of your convenience. | 14:57 |
| rosmaita | my feeling is that we shouldn't fix this piecemeal | 14:58 |
| dharinic | I totally think we should support PATCH according to rfc6902 in its entirity. | 14:58 |
| rosmaita | the problem was that glance went to PATCH early, before the standard was finalized | 14:58 |
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| jokke_ | so how big of a can of worms we will open if we claim to do so? | 14:58 |
| jokke_ | and how many things will break trying to achieve that? | 14:59 |
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| rosmaita | dharinic: can you investigate full json-patch support and report back to us? | 14:59 |
| sigmavirus | jokke_: well what we implemented was a strict subset | 14:59 |
| sigmavirus | We advertise support for JSON Patch but don't have it | 14:59 |
| dharinic | sure | 14:59 |
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| sigmavirus | If we add full support for it, we're expanding our API, not contracting it | 14:59 |
| sigmavirus | (In theory) | 14:59 |
| dharinic | yes. agree with sigmavirus | 14:59 |
| dharinic | sure rosmaita | 14:59 |
| jokke_ | rosmaita: on the other hand, being early adobter is not an excuse to not follow the standard once it's established | 15:00 |
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| dharinic | meanwhile, if you guys are free, please review and let me know. | 15:00 |
| jokke_ | ok, we're out of time | 15:00 |
| dharinic | again agree with jokke_ | 15:00 |
| rosmaita | jokke_: that was historical background, not justification! | 15:00 |
| rosmaita | well, we are indeed out of time ... see y'all in openstack-glance | 15:00 |
| jokke_ | rosmaita: I know ;) | 15:01 |
| rosmaita | and to those going on holiday, happy holidays! | 15:01 |
| rosmaita | #endmeeting | 15:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Dec 22 15:01:13 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/glance/2016/glance.2016-12-22-14.00.html | 15:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/glance/2016/glance.2016-12-22-14.00.txt | 15:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/glance/2016/glance.2016-12-22-14.00.log.html | 15:01 |
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