Friday, 2016-07-08

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piet#startmeeting openstack_ux15:01
openstackMeeting started Fri Jul  8 15:01:13 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is piet. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: openstack_ux)"15:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'openstack_ux'15:01
hurgleburglero/15:01
pietShow of hands15:01
pieto/15:01
robcresswello/15:01
julimhi all15:01
uxdanielleo/15:02
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pietMorning!15:02
piethttps://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/UX#Next_meeting15:02
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lcastello/15:03
rcaballeromxHello15:03
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pietAny thoughts on how we handle folks who do not attend UX meetings regularly?15:03
pietSpecifically, cores15:03
pietNever mind ;^)15:04
piet#topic Research15:04
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*** openstack changes topic to "Research (Meeting topic: openstack_ux)"15:04
robcresswellEmail, ask to be involved, kick if they dont have time15:04
robcresswellI'm doing exactly that in Horizon right now :)15:04
hurgleburglerand have meetings regularly … at the same time15:04
pietYeah, Shamail was mentioning that I set expectations on time committment15:04
julim+1 on expectations and commitment levels15:05
piethurgleburgler Out sick two weeks ago15:05
pietKk15:05
pietWill send something out15:05
piet#topic research15:05
*** openstack changes topic to "research (Meeting topic: openstack_ux)"15:05
pietIs everyone familar with the application developer recruitment survey?15:06
uxdanielleYes ;)15:06
pietAnyone else? If not, I will describe15:06
lcastelldescribe please15:06
pietKk15:06
lcastell:)15:06
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pietThere has been a push by the App Ecosystem and Foundation to begin focusing on app devs since they are ultimately our customers.15:07
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pietThe hassle with recruiting app devs for user research studies is that they do not live in the community channels15:08
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TravTo/15:09
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pietSo, we are distributing a survey to recruit app devs to create a db of available participants.  We are having a sweepstakes for $100 in July and August15:09
julimSee https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/newton-osux-appsurvey15:10
pietAlso, see https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/appdev-survey15:10
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pietWe're currently at n=291, but would like to get to 60015:10
pietuxdanielle Any comments on the current limitations of the current sample of respondents?15:11
julimalso https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/newton-osux-appdevinterview15:11
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pietIt's currently heavily biased towards Intel devlopers15:12
pietAnd upstream developers15:12
julimif folks know / recommend some twitter channels to tweet it on, I'm happy to promote there15:12
robcresswellNeed to be reaching out to managers15:13
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julimI promoted the survey on the #openstack tokyo days15:13
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uxdanielleWe have quite a few people who do not use OpenStack, but I imagine it's hard to find people who use it but aren't actively involved15:13
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pietrobcresswell julim any suggestions on who we should contact?15:14
julimwe could all try and reach out to our individual organizations15:14
julimbut seems like it might be somewhat biased15:14
pietThis one is a big deal because the foundation threw some money at use to use as a sweepstakes15:14
robcresswellWell the problem is that most upstream developers live in their own team15:14
pietat "us"15:14
julim291 is pretty good though15:15
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robcresswellIts common for large organisations to have an "upstream team"15:15
pietWe did try reaching-out to a few schools15:15
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robcresswellWhich isnt useful when you want to reach out to the people building on that stuff15:15
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robcresswellCity meetups are normally a good place to meet people15:15
pietrobcresswell Good idea15:16
robcresswellThe London ones at least tend to be all devs who use and build on top of clouds.15:16
pietAre they inmeetup?15:16
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pietSo, distribute the link as much as possible15:17
robcresswellYeah15:17
uxdanielleDon't know why meetup.com didn't occur to me - I can post a link to it in the Austin OpenStack meetup group.15:17
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pietuxdanielle coolio15:18
julimany thoughts about reaching out to the folks in google summer of code program? could we?15:18
robcresswellI just think posting it to upstream devs is a dead end, because they wont know where to send it within their own org15:18
julimI've been tweeting to different conferences where there might be developers...15:18
pietrobcresswell Yep - also trying to avoid devs that contribute to OS because of bias15:19
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pietI'll plan to make a second push for folks today15:19
pietuxdanielle is also recruiting app devs for a series of interviews next week15:20
pietAny help recruiting would be epic.15:20
pietuxdanielle Can you describe the study?15:20
uxdanielleWe currently have 1/5, potentially 2. But will need more for sure :)15:20
rcaballeromxHave you tried to send it to Android or IOS devs through the Google and Apple develper mailing lists? Or is that an audience you are not trying to reach.15:21
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pietuxdanielle Did we send out a second email blast?15:21
pietrcaballeromx Would like to recruit indiscriminately and then recruit from that list based on specific criteria15:22
rcaballeromxGot it.15:22
uxdanielleYes - the goal of the interviews it to capture the opinions/needs of app devs in order to understand them better. The interviews are no longer than one hour and will cover basic background stuff like their current workflow and painpoints while using OpenStack15:22
uxdanielleNot yet. I have the email addresses and will send them to Anne today. I think it would be best if we waited until Monday to send the blast out so it does't get buried in their inboxes15:23
uxdanielleThe interview questions can be found here: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/newton-osux-appdevinterview15:23
pietExcited about uxdanielle study. Lots of interest fromt eh App Dev WG amonf others...15:24
rcaballeromxuxdanielle: I'll take a look at those and edit them.15:24
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uxdanielleThanks! Appreciate the review.15:25
rcaballeromxNo problem.15:25
pietReady to change topics? Ready to close?15:25
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uxdanielleYep15:25
piet#topic operator help study15:26
*** openstack changes topic to "operator help study (Meeting topic: openstack_ux)"15:26
pietThis is uxdanielle 's study15:26
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pietAs you know, operators have been noting that finding help or educating themselves on OS has been an issue.  Take a look at the semi annuals user seurvey15:27
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pietNo learn; no adoption of OS15:28
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pietuxdanielle Can you briefly describe the study?15:28
uxdanielleStudy planning etherpad: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/newton-help15:28
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pietWhere is the doodle link?15:29
uxdanielleSure. We are looking to talk to 10 operators to get a sense for how they actually go about finding and consuming information that helps them overcome issues. We'll talk about how they currently get help, as well as how they ideally would like things to be15:29
uxdaniellehttp://doodle.com/poll/396nfcs324yfsd5y15:30
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pietPlease forward to any software architects , devops and operators that you know15:32
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pietuxdanielle How may have signed-up15:32
rcaballeromxHow are you choosing the operators?15:32
uxdanielle2/1015:32
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pietCurrently I'm pulling from my contacts15:32
uxdanielleWas going to ask about criteria since we had been using convenience sampling...15:33
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pietrcaballeromx Interesting you mention because I need to create a new operator recruitment survey15:33
pietSimilar to the app developer recruitment survey15:33
rcaballeromxThat can be problematic when interpreting the results, but if it cannot be avoided there is some math that might help.15:34
pietrcaballeromx How do you mean?15:34
rcaballeromxYou have to try to include people with many different backgrounds and levels of expertise within a range.15:34
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rcaballeromxOld, young, multiple geos, etc.15:35
pietrcaballeromx It's interesting because I ran into the same issue at another company.  Burned through the operator population in Seattle15:36
rcaballeromxOtherwise the results become very limited.15:36
pietrcaballeromx However, we did identify a few people that provided good info and did occasionally chose to use them in 2-3 studies15:36
pietrcaballeromx But we need more diversity15:37
rcaballeromxThat is, statistically speaking, not good.15:37
rcaballeromxThen your results become only applicable to those few people.15:37
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rcaballeromxI would try to focus less on the amount of participants and more on their diversity.15:37
pietShoudl send an email to the ops email list15:37
rcaballeromxYes, the mailing lists are a great place to start.15:38
pietKk15:38
pietready to close?15:38
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rcaballeromxyep.15:38
piet515:39
piet415:39
piet315:39
piet215:39
piet115:39
piet#topic UI guideline15:39
*** openstack changes topic to "UI guideline (Meeting topic: openstack_ux)"15:39
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pietrcaballeromx Can you describe?15:40
rcaballeromxYes15:40
rcaballeromxThe basic idea is to provide devs with non-prescriptive guidelines for their GUIs.15:40
pietrcaballeromx you have the floor15:40
rcaballeromxThe basic components come from Bootstrap, which apparently is being used by Horizon right now.15:41
pietNon-prescriptive in a caring and loving way15:41
uxdanielle:)15:41
pietThe bootstrap thing is an interesting discussion15:41
rcaballeromxPatterns are going to be defined using a basic graphic unit of 16 by 16 pixels.15:42
pietWant to avoid prescribing a UI toolkit15:42
rcaballeromxUsing those "atoms" devs can proportion the different graphic components consistently regardless of toolkit.15:42
pietrcaballeromx But up for review so that can change15:42
rcaballeromxYes, right now the spec is up for review and in the process of being accepted.15:43
pietrcaballeromx Re basic graphic unit of 16 by 16 pixels15:43
rcaballeromxOnce that happens, we can start creating the guidelines with more detailed info.15:43
pietAny questions from the group?15:43
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rcaballeromxThat means that your graphic components have to be composed of multiples of those 16 by 16 building blocks.15:44
rcaballeromxIt allows for a lot of flexibility and creative freedom, but, at the same time, allows us to provide easy to implement guides for devs.15:44
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robcresswellWhats this 16x16 thing? You've lost me15:45
rcaballeromxFor example,15:45
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rcaballeromxOne guide could be that the error message and the edge of the error message window has to have a margin of at least three blocks on all sides.15:46
rcaballeromxYour error message can be as large as you want, as can your window, but the proportions will always be the same.15:46
piethurgleburgler Any thoughts on this?15:46
robcresswellI don't really like the idea of writing down pixel measurements for where things should or shouldnt be15:47
pietrobcresswell Too prescriptive?15:47
rcaballeromxThat is not the idea, you can place them anywhere, just keep the proportions.15:47
robcresswellHigh level rules are useful, but when we start getting down to "this thing needs to be >= 48px from this other thing"15:47
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rcaballeromxMaybe I was unclear.15:48
hurgleburglerNot sure why we need to worry about margins?15:48
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rcaballeromxIt would be at least 3 * #of 16x16 blocks.15:48
hurgleburglerThat's something that is configured in the theme variables15:49
hurgleburglerdefault padding sizes15:49
rcaballeromxWhere the # of blocks is up to you.15:49
hurgleburglerits not something we need to dictate15:49
hurgleburglerrobcresswell: we wanted to get away from dictating paddings and such, right?15:49
rcaballeromxMaybe that was a bad example.15:49
hurgleburglerContent, not style or layout15:49
rcaballeromxsay, the proportions of a button.15:49
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hurgleburglerProportions are paddings15:50
hurgleburglerthat's something that exists int he theme15:50
rcaballeromx2 by 415:50
hurgleburglerand something that has a default value already defined for vanilla bootstrap15:50
rcaballeromxYes, but everyone is doing it differently.15:50
hurgleburglerwhich is what Horizon is gonna use going forward15:50
rcaballeromxAnd that would be the base for everything.15:50
hurgleburglerVanilla Bootstrap is the base for everything15:50
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hurgleburglerand those proportions are already defined15:51
rcaballeromxOf the guideline.15:51
piethurgleburgler When you say bootstrap do you mean that the other projects shoudl use bootstrap?15:51
piethurgleburgler Or just use their patterns?15:51
rcaballeromxWe would recommend that, yes.15:51
hurgleburglerWe are using default bootstrap and all of its proportions going forward15:51
robcresswellYeah, we're already just using default bootstrap as the default for everything. I don't have intention of altering that15:51
rcaballeromxHorizon is using it but other projects are not.15:52
robcresswellThe guidelines we want are more like, "you should use a primary button in these X use cases" and "you should use a success alert for these Y cases"15:52
pietrobcresswell hurgleburgler Should we be telling the other projects to use bootstrap?15:52
rcaballeromxThat would be part of it.15:52
hurgleburglerIf they want to conform to looking like Horizon, they would need to15:52
robcresswellHorizon and its plugins should all use it. I'm not sure what the ironic standalone is using, or fuel15:52
hurgleburgleror OOO15:52
rcaballeromxHowever, you cannot cover all possible use cases, so it would need to be more general.15:53
hurgleburglerHaving a bunch of highly customized styles for Horizon turned out to be a nightmare and was impossible to maintain and customize15:53
hurgleburglersorry rcaballeromx but these aren't he guidelines that we were looking for really15:53
rcaballeromx"You should use the success alert whenever the last change was successfully implemented.15:53
piethurgleburgler robcresswell Pretty heavy-handed to expect other projects to conform to Horizon unless developing plugins15:53
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hurgleburglerwe aren't telling other projects to conform15:54
piethurgleburgler Define "we"15:54
robcresswellWell the other suggestion is we conform to UX15:54
robcresswellSo everyone changes15:54
hurgleburglerbut, Horizon already has years of using an existing css framework and all of its glory15:54
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rcaballeromxThat is no argument for not changing things for the better, IMO.15:54
pietBut this isn't a toolkit spec15:54
hurgleburglerbeing someone who has had to customize Horizon over and over again downstream, not using a css framework isn't a possibility for Horizon15:55
robcresswellrcaballeromx: "better"?15:55
rcaballeromxFor all of projects.15:55
pietAnd there has been some acknowledgment that Horizon has the most mature UI and will likely be driving the patterns15:55
rcaballeromxThe plan is to use Horizon's framework as a basis.15:55
hurgleburglerrcaballeromx: we already discussed in great detail the benefits of using vanilla bootstrap at the summit, and came to that conclusion15:55
rcaballeromxSo Horizon will be the least affected.15:56
hurgleburgler'better' in terms of style is subjective15:56
piethurgleburgler Where did "style" come from?15:56
hurgleburglerpadding / proportions all relate to style15:57
rcaballeromxThe idea is to have the same type of component be at the same relative place accross all GUIs15:57
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hurgleburglermore so than content15:57
hurgleburgleror workflowish patterns15:57
piethurgleburgler Like workflow patterns and high level principles15:57
robcresswellRight, but saying  "an alert in the top right" is not the same as "an alert should be 16 px from the next thing"15:57
rcaballeromxSo the success alerts across all projects will appear in the same place under the same of similar circumstances.15:58
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hurgleburgleror even an alert should have padding of 1em, 2em, etc15:58
rcaballeromxBut you need a unit to define "top right"15:58
pietrcaballeromx Felt like we were being to specific on prescribing the number of px15:58
rcaballeromxNo, only the unit to define relative positions and proportions.15:58
hurgleburglerplacement doesn't  have to dictate units of padding15:58
pietfeel like we go into the weeds before having a high level discussion of what this thing is...15:59
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rcaballeromxYes.15:59
pietAnd what it isn't15:59
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rcaballeromxThis thing is about driving consistency across guis.15:59
pietKK one minute15:59
pietrcaballeromx Agreed.15:59
rcaballeromxHow we do that is very much up to debate, and all ideas are on the table.16:00
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pietGood discussion - let's close16:00
pietCalling time16:00
piet516:00
piet416:00
piet316:00
piet216:00
piet116:00
piet.....16:00
piet#endmeeting openstack_ux16:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"16:00
openstackMeeting ended Fri Jul  8 16:00:50 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)16:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_ux/2016/openstack_ux.2016-07-08-15.01.html16:00
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uxdanielle:) bye!16:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_ux/2016/openstack_ux.2016-07-08-15.01.txt16:00
pietCheers16:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_ux/2016/openstack_ux.2016-07-08-15.01.log.html16:00
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rcaballeromxBye.16:01
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