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piet | #startmeeting openstack_ux | 15:01 |
---|---|---|
openstack | Meeting started Fri Jul 8 15:01:13 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is piet. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:01 |
openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:01 |
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: openstack_ux)" | 15:01 | |
openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_ux' | 15:01 |
hurgleburgler | o/ | 15:01 |
piet | Show of hands | 15:01 |
piet | o/ | 15:01 |
robcresswell | o/ | 15:01 |
julim | hi all | 15:01 |
uxdanielle | o/ | 15:02 |
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piet | Morning! | 15:02 |
piet | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/UX#Next_meeting | 15:02 |
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lcastell | o/ | 15:03 |
rcaballeromx | Hello | 15:03 |
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piet | Any thoughts on how we handle folks who do not attend UX meetings regularly? | 15:03 |
piet | Specifically, cores | 15:03 |
piet | Never mind ;^) | 15:04 |
piet | #topic Research | 15:04 |
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*** openstack changes topic to "Research (Meeting topic: openstack_ux)" | 15:04 | |
robcresswell | Email, ask to be involved, kick if they dont have time | 15:04 |
robcresswell | I'm doing exactly that in Horizon right now :) | 15:04 |
hurgleburgler | and have meetings regularly … at the same time | 15:04 |
piet | Yeah, Shamail was mentioning that I set expectations on time committment | 15:04 |
julim | +1 on expectations and commitment levels | 15:05 |
piet | hurgleburgler Out sick two weeks ago | 15:05 |
piet | Kk | 15:05 |
piet | Will send something out | 15:05 |
piet | #topic research | 15:05 |
*** openstack changes topic to "research (Meeting topic: openstack_ux)" | 15:05 | |
piet | Is everyone familar with the application developer recruitment survey? | 15:06 |
uxdanielle | Yes ;) | 15:06 |
piet | Anyone else? If not, I will describe | 15:06 |
lcastell | describe please | 15:06 |
piet | Kk | 15:06 |
lcastell | :) | 15:06 |
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piet | There has been a push by the App Ecosystem and Foundation to begin focusing on app devs since they are ultimately our customers. | 15:07 |
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piet | The hassle with recruiting app devs for user research studies is that they do not live in the community channels | 15:08 |
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TravT | o/ | 15:09 |
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piet | So, we are distributing a survey to recruit app devs to create a db of available participants. We are having a sweepstakes for $100 in July and August | 15:09 |
julim | See https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/newton-osux-appsurvey | 15:10 |
piet | Also, see https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/appdev-survey | 15:10 |
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piet | We're currently at n=291, but would like to get to 600 | 15:10 |
piet | uxdanielle Any comments on the current limitations of the current sample of respondents? | 15:11 |
julim | also https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/newton-osux-appdevinterview | 15:11 |
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piet | It's currently heavily biased towards Intel devlopers | 15:12 |
piet | And upstream developers | 15:12 |
julim | if folks know / recommend some twitter channels to tweet it on, I'm happy to promote there | 15:12 |
robcresswell | Need to be reaching out to managers | 15:13 |
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julim | I promoted the survey on the #openstack tokyo days | 15:13 |
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uxdanielle | We have quite a few people who do not use OpenStack, but I imagine it's hard to find people who use it but aren't actively involved | 15:13 |
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piet | robcresswell julim any suggestions on who we should contact? | 15:14 |
julim | we could all try and reach out to our individual organizations | 15:14 |
julim | but seems like it might be somewhat biased | 15:14 |
piet | This one is a big deal because the foundation threw some money at use to use as a sweepstakes | 15:14 |
robcresswell | Well the problem is that most upstream developers live in their own team | 15:14 |
piet | at "us" | 15:14 |
julim | 291 is pretty good though | 15:15 |
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robcresswell | Its common for large organisations to have an "upstream team" | 15:15 |
piet | We did try reaching-out to a few schools | 15:15 |
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robcresswell | Which isnt useful when you want to reach out to the people building on that stuff | 15:15 |
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robcresswell | City meetups are normally a good place to meet people | 15:15 |
piet | robcresswell Good idea | 15:16 |
robcresswell | The London ones at least tend to be all devs who use and build on top of clouds. | 15:16 |
piet | Are they inmeetup? | 15:16 |
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piet | So, distribute the link as much as possible | 15:17 |
robcresswell | Yeah | 15:17 |
uxdanielle | Don't know why meetup.com didn't occur to me - I can post a link to it in the Austin OpenStack meetup group. | 15:17 |
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piet | uxdanielle coolio | 15:18 |
julim | any thoughts about reaching out to the folks in google summer of code program? could we? | 15:18 |
robcresswell | I just think posting it to upstream devs is a dead end, because they wont know where to send it within their own org | 15:18 |
julim | I've been tweeting to different conferences where there might be developers... | 15:18 |
piet | robcresswell Yep - also trying to avoid devs that contribute to OS because of bias | 15:19 |
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piet | I'll plan to make a second push for folks today | 15:19 |
piet | uxdanielle is also recruiting app devs for a series of interviews next week | 15:20 |
piet | Any help recruiting would be epic. | 15:20 |
piet | uxdanielle Can you describe the study? | 15:20 |
uxdanielle | We currently have 1/5, potentially 2. But will need more for sure :) | 15:20 |
rcaballeromx | Have you tried to send it to Android or IOS devs through the Google and Apple develper mailing lists? Or is that an audience you are not trying to reach. | 15:21 |
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piet | uxdanielle Did we send out a second email blast? | 15:21 |
piet | rcaballeromx Would like to recruit indiscriminately and then recruit from that list based on specific criteria | 15:22 |
rcaballeromx | Got it. | 15:22 |
uxdanielle | Yes - the goal of the interviews it to capture the opinions/needs of app devs in order to understand them better. The interviews are no longer than one hour and will cover basic background stuff like their current workflow and painpoints while using OpenStack | 15:22 |
uxdanielle | Not yet. I have the email addresses and will send them to Anne today. I think it would be best if we waited until Monday to send the blast out so it does't get buried in their inboxes | 15:23 |
uxdanielle | The interview questions can be found here: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/newton-osux-appdevinterview | 15:23 |
piet | Excited about uxdanielle study. Lots of interest fromt eh App Dev WG amonf others... | 15:24 |
rcaballeromx | uxdanielle: I'll take a look at those and edit them. | 15:24 |
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uxdanielle | Thanks! Appreciate the review. | 15:25 |
rcaballeromx | No problem. | 15:25 |
piet | Ready to change topics? Ready to close? | 15:25 |
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uxdanielle | Yep | 15:25 |
piet | #topic operator help study | 15:26 |
*** openstack changes topic to "operator help study (Meeting topic: openstack_ux)" | 15:26 | |
piet | This is uxdanielle 's study | 15:26 |
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piet | As you know, operators have been noting that finding help or educating themselves on OS has been an issue. Take a look at the semi annuals user seurvey | 15:27 |
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piet | No learn; no adoption of OS | 15:28 |
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piet | uxdanielle Can you briefly describe the study? | 15:28 |
uxdanielle | Study planning etherpad: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/newton-help | 15:28 |
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piet | Where is the doodle link? | 15:29 |
uxdanielle | Sure. We are looking to talk to 10 operators to get a sense for how they actually go about finding and consuming information that helps them overcome issues. We'll talk about how they currently get help, as well as how they ideally would like things to be | 15:29 |
uxdanielle | http://doodle.com/poll/396nfcs324yfsd5y | 15:30 |
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piet | Please forward to any software architects , devops and operators that you know | 15:32 |
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piet | uxdanielle How may have signed-up | 15:32 |
rcaballeromx | How are you choosing the operators? | 15:32 |
uxdanielle | 2/10 | 15:32 |
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piet | Currently I'm pulling from my contacts | 15:32 |
uxdanielle | Was going to ask about criteria since we had been using convenience sampling... | 15:33 |
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piet | rcaballeromx Interesting you mention because I need to create a new operator recruitment survey | 15:33 |
piet | Similar to the app developer recruitment survey | 15:33 |
rcaballeromx | That can be problematic when interpreting the results, but if it cannot be avoided there is some math that might help. | 15:34 |
piet | rcaballeromx How do you mean? | 15:34 |
rcaballeromx | You have to try to include people with many different backgrounds and levels of expertise within a range. | 15:34 |
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rcaballeromx | Old, young, multiple geos, etc. | 15:35 |
piet | rcaballeromx It's interesting because I ran into the same issue at another company. Burned through the operator population in Seattle | 15:36 |
rcaballeromx | Otherwise the results become very limited. | 15:36 |
piet | rcaballeromx However, we did identify a few people that provided good info and did occasionally chose to use them in 2-3 studies | 15:36 |
piet | rcaballeromx But we need more diversity | 15:37 |
rcaballeromx | That is, statistically speaking, not good. | 15:37 |
rcaballeromx | Then your results become only applicable to those few people. | 15:37 |
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rcaballeromx | I would try to focus less on the amount of participants and more on their diversity. | 15:37 |
piet | Shoudl send an email to the ops email list | 15:37 |
rcaballeromx | Yes, the mailing lists are a great place to start. | 15:38 |
piet | Kk | 15:38 |
piet | ready to close? | 15:38 |
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rcaballeromx | yep. | 15:38 |
piet | 5 | 15:39 |
piet | 4 | 15:39 |
piet | 3 | 15:39 |
piet | 2 | 15:39 |
piet | 1 | 15:39 |
piet | #topic UI guideline | 15:39 |
*** openstack changes topic to "UI guideline (Meeting topic: openstack_ux)" | 15:39 | |
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piet | rcaballeromx Can you describe? | 15:40 |
rcaballeromx | Yes | 15:40 |
rcaballeromx | The basic idea is to provide devs with non-prescriptive guidelines for their GUIs. | 15:40 |
piet | rcaballeromx you have the floor | 15:40 |
rcaballeromx | The basic components come from Bootstrap, which apparently is being used by Horizon right now. | 15:41 |
piet | Non-prescriptive in a caring and loving way | 15:41 |
uxdanielle | :) | 15:41 |
piet | The bootstrap thing is an interesting discussion | 15:41 |
rcaballeromx | Patterns are going to be defined using a basic graphic unit of 16 by 16 pixels. | 15:42 |
piet | Want to avoid prescribing a UI toolkit | 15:42 |
rcaballeromx | Using those "atoms" devs can proportion the different graphic components consistently regardless of toolkit. | 15:42 |
piet | rcaballeromx But up for review so that can change | 15:42 |
rcaballeromx | Yes, right now the spec is up for review and in the process of being accepted. | 15:43 |
piet | rcaballeromx Re basic graphic unit of 16 by 16 pixels | 15:43 |
rcaballeromx | Once that happens, we can start creating the guidelines with more detailed info. | 15:43 |
piet | Any questions from the group? | 15:43 |
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rcaballeromx | That means that your graphic components have to be composed of multiples of those 16 by 16 building blocks. | 15:44 |
rcaballeromx | It allows for a lot of flexibility and creative freedom, but, at the same time, allows us to provide easy to implement guides for devs. | 15:44 |
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robcresswell | Whats this 16x16 thing? You've lost me | 15:45 |
rcaballeromx | For example, | 15:45 |
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rcaballeromx | One guide could be that the error message and the edge of the error message window has to have a margin of at least three blocks on all sides. | 15:46 |
rcaballeromx | Your error message can be as large as you want, as can your window, but the proportions will always be the same. | 15:46 |
piet | hurgleburgler Any thoughts on this? | 15:46 |
robcresswell | I don't really like the idea of writing down pixel measurements for where things should or shouldnt be | 15:47 |
piet | robcresswell Too prescriptive? | 15:47 |
rcaballeromx | That is not the idea, you can place them anywhere, just keep the proportions. | 15:47 |
robcresswell | High level rules are useful, but when we start getting down to "this thing needs to be >= 48px from this other thing" | 15:47 |
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rcaballeromx | Maybe I was unclear. | 15:48 |
hurgleburgler | Not sure why we need to worry about margins? | 15:48 |
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rcaballeromx | It would be at least 3 * #of 16x16 blocks. | 15:48 |
hurgleburgler | That's something that is configured in the theme variables | 15:49 |
hurgleburgler | default padding sizes | 15:49 |
rcaballeromx | Where the # of blocks is up to you. | 15:49 |
hurgleburgler | its not something we need to dictate | 15:49 |
hurgleburgler | robcresswell: we wanted to get away from dictating paddings and such, right? | 15:49 |
rcaballeromx | Maybe that was a bad example. | 15:49 |
hurgleburgler | Content, not style or layout | 15:49 |
rcaballeromx | say, the proportions of a button. | 15:49 |
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hurgleburgler | Proportions are paddings | 15:50 |
hurgleburgler | that's something that exists int he theme | 15:50 |
rcaballeromx | 2 by 4 | 15:50 |
hurgleburgler | and something that has a default value already defined for vanilla bootstrap | 15:50 |
rcaballeromx | Yes, but everyone is doing it differently. | 15:50 |
hurgleburgler | which is what Horizon is gonna use going forward | 15:50 |
rcaballeromx | And that would be the base for everything. | 15:50 |
hurgleburgler | Vanilla Bootstrap is the base for everything | 15:50 |
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hurgleburgler | and those proportions are already defined | 15:51 |
rcaballeromx | Of the guideline. | 15:51 |
piet | hurgleburgler When you say bootstrap do you mean that the other projects shoudl use bootstrap? | 15:51 |
piet | hurgleburgler Or just use their patterns? | 15:51 |
rcaballeromx | We would recommend that, yes. | 15:51 |
hurgleburgler | We are using default bootstrap and all of its proportions going forward | 15:51 |
robcresswell | Yeah, we're already just using default bootstrap as the default for everything. I don't have intention of altering that | 15:51 |
rcaballeromx | Horizon is using it but other projects are not. | 15:52 |
robcresswell | The guidelines we want are more like, "you should use a primary button in these X use cases" and "you should use a success alert for these Y cases" | 15:52 |
piet | robcresswell hurgleburgler Should we be telling the other projects to use bootstrap? | 15:52 |
rcaballeromx | That would be part of it. | 15:52 |
hurgleburgler | If they want to conform to looking like Horizon, they would need to | 15:52 |
robcresswell | Horizon and its plugins should all use it. I'm not sure what the ironic standalone is using, or fuel | 15:52 |
hurgleburgler | or OOO | 15:52 |
rcaballeromx | However, you cannot cover all possible use cases, so it would need to be more general. | 15:53 |
hurgleburgler | Having a bunch of highly customized styles for Horizon turned out to be a nightmare and was impossible to maintain and customize | 15:53 |
hurgleburgler | sorry rcaballeromx but these aren't he guidelines that we were looking for really | 15:53 |
rcaballeromx | "You should use the success alert whenever the last change was successfully implemented. | 15:53 |
piet | hurgleburgler robcresswell Pretty heavy-handed to expect other projects to conform to Horizon unless developing plugins | 15:53 |
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hurgleburgler | we aren't telling other projects to conform | 15:54 |
piet | hurgleburgler Define "we" | 15:54 |
robcresswell | Well the other suggestion is we conform to UX | 15:54 |
robcresswell | So everyone changes | 15:54 |
hurgleburgler | but, Horizon already has years of using an existing css framework and all of its glory | 15:54 |
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rcaballeromx | That is no argument for not changing things for the better, IMO. | 15:54 |
piet | But this isn't a toolkit spec | 15:54 |
hurgleburgler | being someone who has had to customize Horizon over and over again downstream, not using a css framework isn't a possibility for Horizon | 15:55 |
robcresswell | rcaballeromx: "better"? | 15:55 |
rcaballeromx | For all of projects. | 15:55 |
piet | And there has been some acknowledgment that Horizon has the most mature UI and will likely be driving the patterns | 15:55 |
rcaballeromx | The plan is to use Horizon's framework as a basis. | 15:55 |
hurgleburgler | rcaballeromx: we already discussed in great detail the benefits of using vanilla bootstrap at the summit, and came to that conclusion | 15:55 |
rcaballeromx | So Horizon will be the least affected. | 15:56 |
hurgleburgler | 'better' in terms of style is subjective | 15:56 |
piet | hurgleburgler Where did "style" come from? | 15:56 |
hurgleburgler | padding / proportions all relate to style | 15:57 |
rcaballeromx | The idea is to have the same type of component be at the same relative place accross all GUIs | 15:57 |
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hurgleburgler | more so than content | 15:57 |
hurgleburgler | or workflowish patterns | 15:57 |
piet | hurgleburgler Like workflow patterns and high level principles | 15:57 |
robcresswell | Right, but saying "an alert in the top right" is not the same as "an alert should be 16 px from the next thing" | 15:57 |
rcaballeromx | So the success alerts across all projects will appear in the same place under the same of similar circumstances. | 15:58 |
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hurgleburgler | or even an alert should have padding of 1em, 2em, etc | 15:58 |
rcaballeromx | But you need a unit to define "top right" | 15:58 |
piet | rcaballeromx Felt like we were being to specific on prescribing the number of px | 15:58 |
rcaballeromx | No, only the unit to define relative positions and proportions. | 15:58 |
hurgleburgler | placement doesn't have to dictate units of padding | 15:58 |
piet | feel like we go into the weeds before having a high level discussion of what this thing is... | 15:59 |
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rcaballeromx | Yes. | 15:59 |
piet | And what it isn't | 15:59 |
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rcaballeromx | This thing is about driving consistency across guis. | 15:59 |
piet | KK one minute | 15:59 |
piet | rcaballeromx Agreed. | 15:59 |
rcaballeromx | How we do that is very much up to debate, and all ideas are on the table. | 16:00 |
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piet | Good discussion - let's close | 16:00 |
piet | Calling time | 16:00 |
piet | 5 | 16:00 |
piet | 4 | 16:00 |
piet | 3 | 16:00 |
piet | 2 | 16:00 |
piet | 1 | 16:00 |
piet | ..... | 16:00 |
piet | #endmeeting openstack_ux | 16:00 |
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:00 | |
openstack | Meeting ended Fri Jul 8 16:00:50 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:00 |
openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_ux/2016/openstack_ux.2016-07-08-15.01.html | 16:00 |
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uxdanielle | :) bye! | 16:00 |
openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_ux/2016/openstack_ux.2016-07-08-15.01.txt | 16:00 |
piet | Cheers | 16:00 |
openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_ux/2016/openstack_ux.2016-07-08-15.01.log.html | 16:00 |
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rcaballeromx | Bye. | 16:01 |
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