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| raginbajin | #startmeeting | 14:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | raginbajin: Error: A meeting name is required, e.g., '#startmeeting Marketing Committee' | 14:00 |
| raginbajin | #startmeeting Operators Ops Tools/Monitoring | 14:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Jun 17 14:00:31 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is raginbajin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Operators Ops Tools/Monitoring)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'operators_ops_tools_monitoring' | 14:00 |
| raginbajin | #topic Recap the Summit Meetup | 14:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Recap the Summit Meetup (Meeting topic: Operators Ops Tools/Monitoring)" | 14:01 | |
| raginbajin | Hi everyone. | 14:01 |
| GonZo2000 | Hi | 14:01 |
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| odyssey4me | o/ | 14:02 |
| raginbajin | Just waiting for some others to join. | 14:03 |
| pasquier-s | o/ | 14:03 |
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| GonZo2000 | ok | 14:03 |
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| ddutta | Hi | 14:05 |
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| raginbajin | Ok I think we will get started. | 14:07 |
| GonZo2000 | yep | 14:07 |
| raginbajin | The first thing is to recap our YVR meeting. | 14:07 |
| raginbajin | You can find the link here | 14:07 |
| raginbajin | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-ops-tools | 14:07 |
| raginbajin | our agenda for today can be find here | 14:08 |
| raginbajin | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/monitoring-ops-tools-meeting-agenda | 14:08 |
| raginbajin | So during our meeting we discussed the following items. | 14:08 |
| raginbajin | * ToolChains that people are using | 14:08 |
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| raginbajin | * Monitoring Tools - who's using what and a briefly why | 14:09 |
| raginbajin | * health checks | 14:09 |
| raginbajin | * dealing with logs | 14:09 |
| raginbajin | * gathering metrics | 14:09 |
| raginbajin | * Inventory data and using CMDB | 14:09 |
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| raginbajin | * Message Bus - thoughts (as always rabbitmq being a heartache for everyone) | 14:10 |
| raginbajin | * Monitoring the Network | 14:10 |
| raginbajin | * Storage Monitoring | 14:10 |
| raginbajin | * We broke down operatational areas usually covered by tools. | 14:10 |
| raginbajin | A lot of great comments started to go back and forth and the question was raised about how do we share this information. | 14:11 |
| raginbajin | We identified an over-arching pain points. | 14:11 |
| ddutta | yeah very good meeting | 14:11 |
| GonZo2000 | yep :) it was | 14:11 |
| raginbajin | So that's the basics of what we talked about. | 14:12 |
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| * odyssey4me is sorry that he missed it, but the notes were great for getting the gist of it | 14:12 | |
| raginbajin | Specifically we came away with the following things | 14:12 |
| raginbajin | How do we share this information | 14:12 |
| raginbajin | Some solutions was using the github repo called osops to share this information | 14:13 |
| raginbajin | and to start up this discussion on a bi-weekly basis | 14:13 |
| raginbajin | So that was the YVR meeting overview or meeting minutes from the last time we met. | 14:13 |
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| raginbajin | Any questions or comments before we move on to some of the actions that we created from that meeting? | 14:14 |
| ddutta | Did we send out email to ask for contributions? And also license checks | 14:14 |
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| ddutta | https://github.com/orgs/osops/dashboard | 14:15 |
| raginbajin | I don't think we did.. There was a few emails that I saw floating around about people mentioning it, but nothing directly related to it. | 14:15 |
| ddutta | doesn't have a license yet https://github.com/osops/example-configs | 14:15 |
| ddutta | Else everything seems to have apache 2.0 | 14:16 |
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| raginbajin | Should we create an action item for sending out a notice about using the osops github group? and maybe requirements for contributing. (ie. specify a license inside your directory) | 14:16 |
| ddutta | sure! | 14:16 |
| pasquier-s | +1 | 14:17 |
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| raginbajin | #action Create an email to the Operators List-serv discussing the OSOPS repo and what it should be used for | 14:17 |
| odyssey4me | Excuse me if this has been covered in previous discussion, but is there a particular reason why a github organisation has been setup for this instead of using stackforge? | 14:17 |
| raginbajin | #action Create a set of requirements that can be posted in email to the operators list as well in the github repo mentioning the requirements to contribute, specifically license requirements. | 14:17 |
| ddutta | no idea ... but yes stack forge would be the best home eventually | 14:18 |
| raginbajin | Yeah. I think this came out of a ops meet-up and was just stood-up to get going. | 14:18 |
| pasquier-s | odyssey4me, I think the reason was it would less "scary" for ops to contribute there (no gerrit process) | 14:18 |
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| raginbajin | Should we add that as an action to evaluate the pro's con's of moving osops to stackforge? I think we need to bring in the owners and maybe get some community feedback based on those pros/cons | 14:19 |
| ddutta | +1 | 14:19 |
| GonZo2000 | + | 14:20 |
| GonZo2000 | +1 | 14:20 |
| odyssey4me | OK, ultimately it's a decision already taken - I was just curious. When we get to discussing the logstash work we may have to make an exception there - I'll cover the reasons, but don't want to derail the current agenda. | 14:20 |
| pasquier-s | sounds right to me | 14:20 |
| raginbajin | #action Create a list of Pros/Cons about moving the Github repo OSOPS to stackforge. Once list is created circulate it with the operators community and poll what they think. | 14:20 |
| GonZo2000 | I understood that there are people using Heka | 14:20 |
| GonZo2000 | we intend to use Heka | 14:21 |
| odyssey4me | raginbajin I don't think that an eval necessarily needs to happen, but I do think that the group should have a clear idea of why it's chosen to be there - seperate from everything else openstack. | 14:21 |
| pasquier-s | GonZo2000, Heka user here :-) | 14:21 |
| raginbajin | make sense. | 14:21 |
| raginbajin | #topic OSOPS github repo | 14:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OSOPS github repo (Meeting topic: Operators Ops Tools/Monitoring)" | 14:21 | |
| raginbajin | I think finding out the history of why it was done and see what everyone thinks is a good idea | 14:22 |
| raginbajin | I'm not sure what it was, it just popped up at the PHL meetup and kinda took off from there it seems | 14:22 |
| ddutta | maybe we could ask the owner of the repo | 14:22 |
| GonZo2000 | if we are going to the big tent | 14:22 |
| raginbajin | ha. That's a good point. They would probably know best. | 14:22 |
| GonZo2000 | maybe we should move to gerrit workflow | 14:22 |
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| odyssey4me | yep, it's important to have a record of it so that when you're asked, you have an answer... but also when you re-evaluate whether it's working for you, you can check each reason and validate whether the reasons remain valid or not | 14:23 |
| raginbajin | ok cool. Well we can modify that action whenever based on what we find. | 14:23 |
| raginbajin | I think that kinda ends that then for now | 14:24 |
| raginbajin | #topic Discussion around what people want to achieve from the meetings/working group | 14:24 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Discussion around what people want to achieve from the meetings/working group (Meeting topic: Operators Ops Tools/Monitoring)" | 14:24 | |
| raginbajin | The first was | 14:25 |
| raginbajin | #info Place to bring up problems/challenges to monitoring/ops tools | 14:25 |
| raginbajin | I think we should all try to solicit people to contribute here during these meetings. | 14:26 |
| raginbajin | on the listserv | 14:26 |
| raginbajin | example they are looking for tools or looking for something that needs to be done, recommend that they discuss that they bring it up here, and have others start helping us do the same. | 14:27 |
| raginbajin | The next thing was | 14:28 |
| raginbajin | #info Discuss/plan specs (anyone have any spec ideas?) | 14:28 |
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| raginbajin | Does anyone have any spec ideas? We should make this a topic for every meeting to see if anyone has any ideas and to help flush them out if they have anything | 14:28 |
| ddutta | I think it would be a great idea to have this group start to help other operators out in many ways including communicating to the PTLs about the monitoring needs etc | 14:28 |
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| ddutta | also collate all the configs and create shared corpus-es | 14:29 |
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| GonZo2000 | Agree ddutta | 14:29 |
| raginbajin | What's the best way to gather that info to share? | 14:29 |
| ddutta | collate best practices for monitoring | 14:29 |
| ddutta | Wiki | 14:29 |
| GonZo2000 | Wiki ? | 14:29 |
| odyssey4me | the scope of this group is rather large, perhaps the scope should be split into headings/sections each with agreed definitions of what they mean and what the mission of that area/section is? | 14:29 |
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| ddutta | +1 | 14:29 |
| GonZo2000 | +1 | 14:30 |
| raginbajin | Totally works for me. How do we start to do that? | 14:30 |
| pasquier-s | +1 for using the Wiki as the common place where we share documents | 14:30 |
| ddutta | I can take a quick pass at the wiki sometime this week | 14:30 |
| raginbajin | Ok | 14:30 |
| odyssey4me | there is an issue that will quickly arise, though, which is that wiki articles and repo code goes stale really quickly... for this to work it needs a fair amount of commitment from enough people | 14:31 |
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| ddutta | yes, thats why we need to be at it... | 14:31 |
| raginbajin | #action Break down the Wiki into headings/sections and define what each section means and the mission of that specific area | 14:31 |
| GonZo2000 | so do we create a proposal on a weiki page for the structure ? | 14:32 |
| raginbajin | I think thats a good start | 14:32 |
| GonZo2000 | wiki* | 14:32 |
| odyssey4me | otherwise the group is possibly better off not creating content for the most part, but rather keeping track of development objectives and focusing on influencing the various development teams to achieve the goal of improving the ability to consistantly log, and to properly monitor the very large family of OpenStack components | 14:32 |
| raginbajin | odyssey4me: I think a mix of both is actually better | 14:33 |
| raginbajin | Maybe the wiki page that just have very basic high level development objects that are being tracked | 14:33 |
| raginbajin | objectives* | 14:33 |
| raginbajin | geez that was bad typing.. | 14:34 |
| odyssey4me | :) | 14:34 |
| raginbajin | I totally see your point, and until this group is so active that constant updates are being done, we shouldn't try to take on a massive documentation type of project at all | 14:34 |
| ddutta | It could just be a collection of links and a structure | 14:34 |
| raginbajin | but I think your right that the group's topic and role is really large, so breaking it down and just maybe providing enough informaiton about what we are tracking | 14:34 |
| ddutta | then we can see how it evolves | 14:35 |
| raginbajin | +1 | 14:35 |
| GonZo2000 | agree raginbajin very high level at the beggining | 14:35 |
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| GonZo2000 | +1 | 14:35 |
| raginbajin | ddutta: So you going to take a swing at it? | 14:35 |
| ddutta | yes I volunteer | 14:36 |
| raginbajin | #action Review the first wiki page structure attempt | 14:36 |
| odyssey4me | +1 keep it simple, try to take on a smaller set of things that are achievable and can build momentum... as the group grows, so can the volume of activities | 14:36 |
| GonZo2000 | ddutta i will try to help you as well | 14:36 |
| ddutta | GonZo2000: thx | 14:37 |
| raginbajin | Great... The next thing. | 14:37 |
| raginbajin | #info Continuously look at and curate ops-tools repo | 14:37 |
| raginbajin | I think we kinda talked about this already and have some work to do for this | 14:37 |
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| raginbajin | moving on then. | 14:37 |
| raginbajin | #info "Stories from the front line" Perhaps if people want to talk about problems they've had with Openstack in production, where the tooling they used lead to resolving them quickly (success stories? are these useful?) | 14:38 |
| raginbajin | I'm not sure if we are going to have a lot just yet. | 14:38 |
| raginbajin | Maybe as we get going a little more. | 14:38 |
| GonZo2000 | Maybe we can ask on listserv for a "show/tell" type presentation ? | 14:38 |
| odyssey4me | is the intent to have people do a quick paragraph in the meeting, or to collect some sort of formal story in the repo or something? | 14:39 |
| raginbajin | I *think* it was to just have a virtual version of what we had at the Summit. | 14:39 |
| odyssey4me | a lot of people share that kind of stuff in blogs already | 14:39 |
| raginbajin | True, but not everyone blogs and/or can blog. | 14:40 |
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| GonZo2000 | maybe like the RDO does a bi-weekly roundup email with links to stories ? | 14:40 |
| raginbajin | I'm not sure if this is really worth while at this point. | 14:40 |
| odyssey4me | I do think it's a great idea to encourage sharing a recent experience, or something recently done.... many people don't have the time or confidence to do blog posts, but would be happy to share a short story via IRC. | 14:41 |
| raginbajin | exactly. | 14:41 |
| raginbajin | So maybe we just ask at the end of the meeting, does anyone have a success story to share | 14:41 |
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| GonZo2000 | lets crawl before we walk then :) | 14:41 |
| odyssey4me | perhaps just set some guidelines to help tell the story - 3-5 key questions and limit each person's time to no more than x minutes in the meeting? | 14:42 |
| raginbajin | #action Update meeting agenda to ask at the end of the bi-weekly irc meetings if anyone has a success story to share. | 14:42 |
| GonZo2000 | encourage a irc short story ? | 14:42 |
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| raginbajin | I think having some structure like the 3-5 questions is good. | 14:42 |
| raginbajin | That way someone doesn't take 20 minutes telling a story | 14:43 |
| raginbajin | maybe 2-3 minutes max, and answer these 3-5 questions and share that expierence with us | 14:43 |
| GonZo2000 | +1 | 14:43 |
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| raginbajin | Ok we'll figure it out as we go. | 14:44 |
| raginbajin | the last topic we have on our agenda.. | 14:44 |
| raginbajin | #topic Rackspace contributions/effort around logstash configuration | 14:44 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Rackspace contributions/effort around logstash configuration (Meeting topic: Operators Ops Tools/Monitoring)" | 14:44 | |
| raginbajin | #info How can we leverage and formalise this? (opstools repo?) | 14:45 |
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| GonZo2000 | i think the opstools repo for starters is a good | 14:45 |
| raginbajin | Odyssey4me: I think this was something you posted about on the listserv to talk about | 14:45 |
| odyssey4me | raginbajin yep, if you don't mind I'd like to give a little background before we decide what goes where | 14:46 |
| raginbajin | No problem.. Just reading from the agenda.. | 14:46 |
| odyssey4me | (or how we do what) | 14:46 |
| odyssey4me | ok, so there have been various efforts from various directions to develop solutions that are related to OpenStack and the ELK stack. | 14:47 |
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| odyssey4me | OpenStack-Infra has an ELK stack deployed and has some logstash filters. They have no special dashboard or anything. | 14:48 |
| odyssey4me | The osops repo has some submissions covering Kibana dashboards and logstash filters. | 14:48 |
| odyssey4me | I'll note that while Heka is another toolset that appears to be gaining some momentum, I'm not aware of any shared 'filters' for Heka just yet. | 14:49 |
| GonZo2000 | true none until now | 14:49 |
| GonZo2000 | i hope that my team can contribute with some :) | 14:49 |
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| odyssey4me | Oh, back to the ELK stack Rackspace Private Cloud (my employer) is happy to contribute and participate in the development of Logstash filters that are useful to operators for production, and Kibana dashboards that are also useful for operating an OpenStack cloud. | 14:50 |
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| odyssey4me | OpenStack-Infra is also keen for their filters and dashboards to be part of a community effort and they're looking for assistance with upgrading and evolving their ELK stack | 14:51 |
| odyssey4me | GonZo2000 sounds great! one of our team is very keen on heka and may possibly help where he can | 14:51 |
| raginbajin | This is exciting to hear. My company has been working on the, but just haven't had enough time or resources to really produce valuable filters. Most of them have been very basic and doesn't break out messages just liek the Openstack-infra ones. | 14:51 |
| GonZo2000 | perfect odyssey4me :) | 14:52 |
| odyssey4me | So, of course we need to figure out how we do this in a way that any project (such as openstack-infra and RPC) can very easily pull in the work and make use of the good stuff | 14:52 |
| ddutta | We (Cisco) might also be able to help on Kibana dashboards | 14:52 |
| pasquier-s | GonZo2000, odyssey4me, some Heka stuff for OpenStack is here => https://github.com/stackforge/fuel-plugin-lma-collector/tree/master/deployment_scripts/puppet/modules/lma_collector/files/plugins/decoders | 14:52 |
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| ddutta | I think it would be awesome to have a repo with Kibana dashboards | 14:53 |
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| raginbajin | ddutta: agreed Kibana 4 dashboards would be great. | 14:53 |
| GonZo2000 | yep :) +1 Kibana dashboards | 14:54 |
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| odyssey4me | I'm inclined to separate each ELK component (or similar) into its own development space/repo. I'd like to try and tackle the logstash filters personally to begin with because we've done pretty much most of the hard work already, it's really about just figuring out how to package it. | 14:54 |
| odyssey4me | If someone else wants to drive Kibana dashboards, I'll be happy to contribute but take a bit more of a back seat. | 14:55 |
| pasquier-s | except that Kibana dashboards depend on what/how your filters parse the logs | 14:55 |
| GonZo2000 | i agree with the separation, because heka can use kibana and elasticsearch | 14:55 |
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| odyssey4me | Considering that both openstack-infra and RPC intend to (very possibly) directly consume the logstash filters as-is, I think they'll need to be in their own stackforge repository | 14:56 |
| pasquier-s | We (Mirantis) have some Kibana dashboards but I doubt they would be useful without our Heka decoders | 14:56 |
| odyssey4me | perhaps even in the openstack namespace | 14:56 |
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| raginbajin | Ok - how should we proceed? or what are our next steps? | 14:57 |
| odyssey4me | pasquier-s correct, but if we can agree between Heka and logstash on the terms to use and what info is useful to extract, then the kibana dashboards will work both ways | 14:57 |
| raginbajin | we have a just a few minutes left in our meeting. | 14:57 |
| odyssey4me | I propose that a project be setup within th eopenstack namespace, something like openstack-logstash-filters and that we contribute our body of work into there. | 14:58 |
| pasquier-s | odyssey4me, yes, worth trying at least ;) | 14:58 |
| raginbajin | in the stackforge you mean? | 14:58 |
| raginbajin | or in the osops? | 14:58 |
| odyssey4me | raginbajin openstack-infra has actually suggested putting it straight into the big tent | 14:58 |
| raginbajin | ok.. Well then if you guys do that, then we can just contribute as we see fit | 14:59 |
| odyssey4me | I'm happy to do this and get things going if that's ok with everyone. I'd just like to know who'd be keen to get involved in setting things up and curating from then on. | 14:59 |
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| raginbajin | Fine by me | 15:00 |
| raginbajin | We have to end the meeting now. | 15:00 |
| odyssey4me | I guess we're out of time, and perhaps we should sleep on this and discuss it next week. I'll start making some arrangements meanwhile. | 15:00 |
| raginbajin | #action More discussion on the Logstash-filters and how this group can help. | 15:00 |
| pasquier-s | bye | 15:01 |
| raginbajin | #endmeeting | 15:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Jun 17 15:01:03 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/operators_ops_tools_monitoring/2015/operators_ops_tools_monitoring.2015-06-17-14.00.html | 15:01 |
| GonZo2000 | bye guys | 15:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/operators_ops_tools_monitoring/2015/operators_ops_tools_monitoring.2015-06-17-14.00.txt | 15:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/operators_ops_tools_monitoring/2015/operators_ops_tools_monitoring.2015-06-17-14.00.log.html | 15:01 |
| odyssey4me | (or we can easily discuss any time in #openstack | 15:01 |
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| eglute | #startmeeting DefCore | 15:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Jun 17 15:01:45 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is eglute. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: DefCore)" | 15:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'defcore' | 15:01 |
| hogepodge | o/ | 15:01 |
| markvoelker | o/ | 15:01 |
| eglute | o/ | 15:01 |
| AlanClark | 0/ | 15:02 |
| purp | o/ | 15:02 |
| zehicle_irl | o/ | 15:02 |
| auld | 0/ | 15:02 |
| kbaikov | o/ | 15:02 |
| markvoelker | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/DefCoreFlag.4 Etherpad for today | 15:02 |
| eglute | Hello Everyone! thanks for joining. We are taking attendance by raising hands o/, so please do so if you have not done so yet | 15:03 |
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| eglute | thank you markvoelker for sending out the link to the etherpad. | 15:04 |
| * markvoelker tips hat | 15:04 | |
| VanL | Hello all. | 15:04 |
| eglute | #topic mid-cycle meeting | 15:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "mid-cycle meeting (Meeting topic: DefCore)" | 15:04 | |
| eglute | thank you everyone that had voted on the doodle poll. | 15:05 |
| eglute | #link http://doodle.com/karnnaxfrefumneb | 15:05 |
| eglute | i made a mistake in the austin dates, off by one day. if you voted for austin, does that make a difference? | 15:05 |
| markvoelker | Anyone here who hasn't answered the poll that would like to real quick before we discuss? | 15:05 |
| markvoelker | eglute: not for me | 15:05 |
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| VanL | Just doodled | 15:06 |
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| * markvoelker hums Final Jeopardy music | 15:07 | |
| hogepodge | eglute: I'm going to be in Austin for those days, so I would just need to extend my stay there | 15:07 |
| kbaikov | eglute: no ## Attendees: in etherpad? | 15:07 |
| eglute | based on the poll, looks like Austin right after the board meeting will be the time/place. we will work on finalize the details | 15:07 |
| hogepodge | But would have to do that anyway. | 15:07 |
| markvoelker | kbaikov: we've started doing that via IRC logs | 15:07 |
| eglute | kbaikov meeting bot takes attendance for us | 15:07 |
| kbaikov | got it | 15:07 |
| eglute | that is why everyone o/ raises hands :) | 15:08 |
| eglute | or speaks. | 15:08 |
| markvoelker | So, looks like Austin is polling pretty strongly... | 15:08 |
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| eglute | yes it is. markvoelker do you think you would be able to make it? | 15:08 |
| markvoelker | I will need to see if I can shuffle a few things, but I'm optimistic | 15:08 |
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| eglute | excellent. anyone else that might have good reasons for not holding midcycle in austin that week? | 15:09 |
| barrett1 | o/ | 15:09 |
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| markvoelker | eglute: none from me. What was the actual hosting venue for Austin? Foundation HQ again? | 15:10 |
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| eglute | if not, i will work on finalizing details/invite so that people can plan travel | 15:10 |
| eglute | markvoelker we are still working on that. Rackspace Austin office is one of the options. i will ask foundation about hosting at their HQ, unless people have other ideas | 15:11 |
| zehicle_irl | was thinking IBM may host too | 15:11 |
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| markvoelker | ok, cool. Will await further details and start shuffling. | 15:11 |
| hogepodge | I'm letting foundation staff know that we're going to be in town, and I'll let you know if we have space. | 15:11 |
| hogepodge | Depending on how many people are coming it may get cramped. | 15:12 |
| eglute | that would work as well. i am confident we will find the place, and in the mean time, i will send out "hold the date" invite for travel planning purposes | 15:12 |
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| eglute | #action eglute send out hold the date invite for DefCore Mid-Cycle in Austin, TX week of July 28th | 15:12 |
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| eglute | #topic capabilities subdivision into v1.3 | 15:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "capabilities subdivision into v1.3 (Meeting topic: DefCore)" | 15:13 | |
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| eglute | VanL hogepodge have you had a chance to work on capabilities subdivision? | 15:14 |
| hogepodge | eglute: I have not. | 15:14 |
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| markvoelker | hogepodge: vanl: do you need help from the rest of us, or just been busy? | 15:16 |
| VanL | I've been traveling, sorry | 15:16 |
| * markvoelker totally understands being busy | 15:16 | |
| hogepodge | markvoelker: mostly busy, but can turn my attentions back to it. | 15:16 |
| VanL | I was on the other side of the clock and massively jetlagged :( | 15:16 |
| eglute | I know Catherine worked on the capabilities as well, has she been attending the IRC meetings? | 15:17 |
| markvoelker | No worries, we have some breathing room yet according to the timeline (see bottom of etherpad). Just wanted to see if you needed assistance | 15:17 |
| VanL | So we have a proposal (in the googlesheet) that we worked on that has the mapping from tests to new capabilities | 15:17 |
| VanL | That has not been properly entered into a updated json, due to difficulties making sure that all the details are just right. | 15:18 |
| eglute | VanL hogepodge agree with markvoelker, let us know if you need help. also, dwalleck offered to help as well, i can connect you if you would like | 15:18 |
| hogepodge | VanL: eglute: markvoelker: I'll start on, and try to finish it, today. | 15:18 |
| eglute | thank you hogepodge VanL | 15:18 |
| VanL | Has anyone looked at the reformulated capabilities? | 15:18 |
| VanL | Are there any concerns? | 15:19 |
| markvoelker | VanL: I've perused them a bit | 15:19 |
| markvoelker | No major concerns | 15:19 |
| eglute | #action hogepodge VanL will work on subdividing the capabilities | 15:19 |
| markvoelker | It appears to be a much nicer breakdown than we had in the past. | 15:19 |
| eglute | agreed! | 15:19 |
| zehicle_irl | VanL, no, they look good to me | 15:19 |
| zehicle_irl | we've got some patches that will need to be rebased | 15:20 |
| markvoelker | Hmm, we should link to that sheet again....let me dig up the URL | 15:20 |
| zehicle_irl | but that's not an issue | 15:20 |
| VanL | Ok, in which case is the next step getting that accurately reflected in a json doc patch? | 15:20 |
| markvoelker | #link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15Fkt2n95WPPe7CYH-0WIKz3dhMeW3FW2gl5aSlamEeY/edit#gid=561264013 capabilities breakout | 15:20 |
| VanL | Not actually subdividing | 15:20 |
| VanL | It would be reflecting that subdivision in our official docs. | 15:20 |
| VanL | Is that right? | 15:20 |
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| hogepodge | VanL: It would be transforming the next document to match the google docs reclassification | 15:21 |
| VanL | Right. | 15:21 |
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| VanL | I was referring to #action hogepodge VanL will work on subdividing the capabilities | 15:21 |
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| VanL | Should that be: #action hogepodge VanL will work on creating a patch for the json reflecting subdivided capabilities | 15:22 |
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| hogepodge | #info merging that patch will put the flag patches into conflict, but I'll maintain those as the repository is changed | 15:22 |
| eglute | thank you hogepodge | 15:23 |
| markvoelker | hogepodge: is it reasonable to think the majority of those flag patches could land first? Seems like a lot of them are close. | 15:23 |
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| eglute | we could review the patches now, if that would help | 15:24 |
| hogepodge | markvoelker: I think a bunch can, I'd like to see them reviewed by the community, and some are just waiting on the process updates | 15:24 |
| hogepodge | markvoelker: esp the tests being removed. | 15:24 |
| zehicle_irl | did we reach a good place w/ flag rules? | 15:25 |
| markvoelker | hogepodge: got it. Either way should be pretty simple to maintain those, so no real need to worry about the order I suppose. | 15:25 |
| zehicle_irl | given that we can add new rules when we find reasons | 15:25 |
| markvoelker | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/188661/ Current discussion on flag rules | 15:26 |
| eglute | I am ok with that | 15:26 |
| eglute | #topic review hacking file | 15:26 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "review hacking file (Meeting topic: DefCore)" | 15:26 | |
| purp | I really need to take a pass on 188661. I'll do that now. | 15:27 |
| markvoelker | So, that makes at least two folks that would like the list to be non-exhaustive. Anyone else have strong opinions? | 15:27 |
| zehicle_irl | if the security item the primary question? | 15:28 |
| eglute | anyone else had a chance to take a look at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/188661/ | 15:28 |
| markvoelker | I'd be happy to update the wording on line 61 per my last comment on the patch if nobody feels differently. | 15:28 |
| auld | non-exhaustive +1 | 15:28 |
| zehicle_irl | I'm OK if we hold on it and add it when needed | 15:28 |
| hogepodge | exhaustive with room for updates so that expectations are clear but not inflexible? | 15:29 |
| VanL | non-exhastive +1 | 15:29 |
| hogepodge | So if the reason is not on the list, update the process then update the flag? | 15:29 |
| VanL | *non-exhaustive | 15:29 |
| purp | hogepodge that's exactly my concern. | 15:30 |
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| zehicle_irl | we'd need people to add a new flag if they come up with a new reason | 15:30 |
| purp | I think we need a "misc" category to avoid burying newly identified distinctions in existing categorie/facets. | 15:30 |
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| * markvoelker pushes updated wording on line 61 to make this non-exhaustive | 15:31 | |
| markvoelker | See patchset 6 please. | 15:31 |
| purp | I believe we expect that someone who wants a flag to name which valid reason they're citing, yes? | 15:31 |
| zehicle_irl | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/188661/5..6/HACKING.rst | 15:31 |
| markvoelker | purp: yes, per rule D307 | 15:31 |
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| zehicle_irl | that does not link up w/ my understanding | 15:32 |
| purp | Okay, then the behavior would seem to work out like so: | 15:32 |
| zehicle_irl | I thought we were trying to keep flags limited to reasons identified | 15:32 |
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| purp | 1. Find flaggable thing, 2. Search valid reasons, 3. Pick one that's closest since it's required and I want to get this done. | 15:32 |
| markvoelker | zehicle_irl: err...wait, I thought you just said you wanted the list to be non-exhaustive and for us to be able to add to it? | 15:33 |
| zehicle_irl | purp, what if it does not match? | 15:33 |
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| eglute | zehicle_irl i think in this case we risk missing good reasons | 15:33 |
| zehicle_irl | sorry, not being clear | 15:33 |
| purp | If it doesn't, then I have a much harder task to submit a flaggable thing. | 15:33 |
| zehicle_irl | I expected that the list of flag reasons would be the exhaustive list | 15:33 |
| purp | I have to reach out to #defcore, get them/us to agree, make a new category, then submit the flag. | 15:33 |
| hogepodge | purp: that's part of the point. New reasons needs to be reviewed. | 15:33 |
| zehicle_irl | if someone has a reason that's not covered, we'd have to add it | 15:33 |
| zehicle_irl | the original text was correct IMHO | 15:34 |
| purp | hogepodge: totally agree. Would prefer a "misc" category which requires us to validate, categorize into an existing category, or make a new one. | 15:34 |
| rockyg | zehicle_irl: ++ | 15:34 |
| purp | Many will fail validation (as now) | 15:34 |
| VanL | purp +1 | 15:34 |
| zehicle_irl | I'm worried that a "misc" flag just puts us back where we were | 15:35 |
| purp | Some will be validly in an existing category, but linguistic barriers made it hard for submitter to understand where. | 15:35 |
| purp | Very few might coalesce around a real, new category. | 15:35 |
| zehicle_irl | but then we'd have to go back and fix the flags | 15:35 |
| zehicle_irl | would rather have that discussion up front | 15:35 |
| purp | zehicle_irl: if they submit to misc, there's extra delay and process. Makes a counter=incentive to the "just put it all there and let #defcore sort it out" | 15:36 |
| zehicle_irl | could create some delays, but it makes the decisions pretty clean | 15:36 |
| purp | Or vice versa: falgs properly categorized get fast attention. | 15:36 |
| zehicle_irl | we have an example of a new flag need and then have a concrete discussion about it | 15:36 |
| zehicle_irl | in that case, we'd want to reference the D### info in the flag details in JSON | 15:36 |
| hogepodge | purp: I'm worried misc would be a dumping ground and a way to admit things without proper review | 15:36 |
| markvoelker | I'm not tremendously worried about someone requesting a flag that only fits dubiously into an existing category actually... | 15:36 |
| hogepodge | purp: especially at the last minute | 15:37 |
| markvoelker | I think we as reviewers would catch that during review. | 15:37 |
| zehicle_irl | if the flag is logical, adding it would be easy | 15:37 |
| purp | hogepodge: I'd be comfortable saying that "misc" flags are never issued; they have to move to a category. | 15:37 |
| zehicle_irl | if the flag is not then we'd need discussion. | 15:37 |
| markvoelker | And decide either "yes, this fits an existing reason" or "crap, we never thought of that, let's get a new reason added pronto" | 15:37 |
| purp | Makes the submission easy, and puts the burden in the review process as should be | 15:37 |
| zehicle_irl | I'd be OK if we put "pending" instead of "misc" | 15:38 |
| zehicle_irl | so that's like the old D999 pixie dust - you can use that for a patch but we won't merge it | 15:38 |
| purp | I guess where it lies for me is that I want people to *submit* things they believe need to be flagged for examination; that's data which we learn from. I don't want to make *approval* easier. | 15:38 |
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| rockyg | zehicle_irl ++ | 15:38 |
| purp | +1 pending | 15:38 |
| eglute | pending is good. i think we will have "crap we never thought of that category" | 15:38 |
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| purp | (and +1 pixie dust. I used to work for Disney) | 15:39 |
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| markvoelker | purp: So what about this... | 15:39 |
| eglute | i was sad to see pixie dust be removed. | 15:39 |
| * rockyg sneezes | 15:39 | |
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| purp | Bless you, rockyg | 15:39 |
| * purp listens to markvoelker | 15:39 | |
| * zehicle_irl buys some glitter | 15:39 | |
| markvoelker | purp: Rather than adding a "misc" or "pending" category, what if we ammended the wording on line 61 again such that we basically say | 15:40 |
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| markvoelker | If you think something needs to be flagged and it doesn't meet the criteria below, please submit your flag request anyway and DefCore will consider whether or not the rationale is reasonable so we can add a corresponding rule | 15:40 |
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| markvoelker | (that is terrible wording that I wouldn't actually put in the file....but you get the picture) | 15:41 |
| purp | markvoelker: I have this urge to have a real reason so a flag request can be validated as requiring one. | 15:41 |
| markvoelker | That way we don't have "dumping ground" category | 15:41 |
| zehicle_irl | I liked purp 's suggestion to have a rule for that | 15:41 |
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| purp | markvoelker: and I respect that we don't want a dumping ground. Did we feel like we had one pre-categorization/ | 15:41 |
| zehicle_irl | the placeholder / pending discussion | 15:41 |
| purp | ? | 15:41 |
| markvoelker | But we do have a way for people to say "this is a valid reason for not requiring a test, please consider it" | 15:41 |
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| zehicle_irl | especially because it lets us get the request on record | 15:42 |
| markvoelker | Perhaps I'm not seeing what the "pending/placeholder" rule you're suggesting would actually look like.... | 15:43 |
| markvoelker | What would it actually say? | 15:43 |
| rockyg | Actually, I think this would be a stronger argument in that someone would need to submit the reason, with the example test. They would either show a strong corelation or not | 15:43 |
| markvoelker | [D405] ________ [fill in the blank] | 15:43 |
| eglute | ok, so everyone agrees that we dont want a dumping ground. I like markvoelker proposal | 15:43 |
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| purp | [D999] Insufficient Pixie Dust. Flag reason doesn't fit existing categories; suggest new category. Will be subject to lengthy review. | 15:44 |
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| zehicle_irl | D999 placeholder flag pending discussion. Use this flag if none of the above fit. | 15:44 |
| rockyg | so, test sky is green needs to be flagged because new rule: sky where this stuff runs is always blue | 15:44 |
| purp | I'm going to have to practice typing to keep up with this crowd. | 15:44 |
| eglute | purp that is not bad. I think that any new category proposed will be discussed at this meeting | 15:44 |
| purp | Usually it's just my stupidity in the way. | 15:44 |
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| markvoelker | OK, I see where you're going. I can live with that. | 15:45 |
| zehicle_irl | purp - could you make the hacking file changes to describe this process | 15:45 |
| zehicle_irl | ? | 15:45 |
| * rockyg typing is too slow for group plus too sleepy for group | 15:45 | |
| * eglute gives rockyg huge cup of coffee | 15:46 | |
| purp | #action purp to make hacking file changes to re-add D999 and require D### in all flag submissions | 15:46 |
| zehicle_irl | I'd like to also make sure that the D### are referenced in the flag (and maybe into the JSON too?) | 15:46 |
| purp | That covers it? | 15:46 |
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| zehicle_irl | +1 | 15:46 |
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| purp | Coolio. We'll look at JSON file after we rip my patch to shreds. | 15:46 |
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| markvoelker | zehicle_irl: hrm. You mean reference DXXX in the flag field added to the .json file? | 15:46 |
| * zehicle_irl happy that we have a way to close flags for now | 15:46 | |
| zehicle_irl | markvoelker, I think it may be worthwhile | 15:47 |
| zehicle_irl | could just be in the comment field | 15:47 |
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| zehicle_irl | or we could call it out as a new field in the schema | 15:47 |
| zehicle_irl | since there are no flags, it would not be a schema impact to add it now | 15:47 |
| eglute | zehicle_irl i think i like comment idea | 15:47 |
| zehicle_irl | if we added a field to the JSON then we'd be certain that it was included | 15:47 |
| markvoelker | I'll have to ponder that a bit. These rules have been pretty fluid so not sure it'll be very exact in practice (at least for now). | 15:48 |
| * zehicle_irl not overly committed to that course | 15:48 | |
| purp | In JSON schemas, I'm a big fan of having either a parseable comment field for key-value pairs, then moving the good ones into the schema; or having a "blind data" field for the same thing. | 15:48 |
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| markvoelker | E.g. if you add a JSON field, you also have to specify the SHA of the HACKIGN file at the time and OMG red tape | 15:48 |
| * eglute does not like red tape | 15:48 | |
| purp | markvoelker: exactly. Schema changes are expensive, and should be. | 15:48 |
| zehicle_irl | markvoelker, oh, dear. no | 15:48 |
| markvoelker | Ok, I think we have a reasonable AI here and can continue to discuss in purp's revision of the patch | 15:49 |
| markvoelker | We have 10m, so let's move on? | 15:49 |
| eglute | agreed | 15:49 |
| purp | markvoelker: +1 | 15:49 |
| zehicle_irl | +1 - good discussion | 15:49 |
| eglute | #topic strategic test planning | 15:50 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "strategic test planning (Meeting topic: DefCore)" | 15:50 | |
| purp | (other possible misc: change D404 - Reason Not Found.) | 15:50 |
| purp | (sorry =) | 15:50 |
| eglute | purp i like that | 15:50 |
| * zehicle_irl bows before purp 's geekness | 15:50 | |
| eglute | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/defcore-committee/2015-June/000818.html | 15:50 |
| * purp blushes | 15:50 | |
| hogepodge | I sent a mailing out to the list. | 15:50 |
| purp | I miss the old "Yahoo" add at Pacbell center field. It was 404 feet deep. | 15:50 |
| zehicle_irl | I will not accept the patch unless the pending rule is 404 | 15:51 |
| hogepodge | Essentially we have implicit requirements for resources that need to be available for tests. | 15:51 |
| eglute | ^^ link to hogepodge email | 15:51 |
| hogepodge | I'd like us to start making those requirements explicit so it can give a technical requirement as to what should be considered as required by our criteria. | 15:51 |
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| eglute | +1 on explicit requirements | 15:52 |
| zehicle_irl | hogepodge, are you seeing issues with this in the vendor space? | 15:52 |
| hogepodge | Also buried in there is the idea that mapping APIs to capabilities would be useful for developers who want to write portable apps on OpenStack. | 15:52 |
| markvoelker | hogepodge: So I guess I have two main thoughts on that. First: how well aligned is Tempest to that today and how willing is QA to refactor tests to get them in compliance? | 15:52 |
| zehicle_irl | hogepodge, +1 on caps being generally useful | 15:52 |
| hogepodge | markvoelker: Tempest does a good job of abstracting away resources so you can tell when test needs something | 15:53 |
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| eglute | johnthetubaguy what is your opinion on explicit requirements for resources | 15:53 |
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| hogepodge | I think some in QA are on board (with one notable exception, who thinks all tests are interop ready by default) | 15:54 |
| johnthetubaguy | eglute: so I like the idea, I just not sure what it would look like right now | 15:54 |
| rockyg | markvoelker: what Hogpodge said, but beyond that, the tempest folks need educating on separability of functionality in tests | 15:54 |
| markvoelker | hogepodge: so you're saying there actually wouldn't be many tests that need refactoring in order to meet this bar? | 15:54 |
| hogepodge | I think the onus to work on identifying or writing new tests would be on "us" ("us" being those interested in interop) | 15:54 |
| rockyg | what hogpodge said | 15:55 |
| hogepodge | markvoelker: We don't have many tests to begin with. 127, and I think many are fine. | 15:55 |
| johnthetubaguy | hogepodge: so I think identifying what users need but is not tested yet, is a great way to move foward | 15:55 |
| markvoelker | hogepodge: that's partly my concern. How many people here have contributed to Tempest regularly in the past? | 15:55 |
| hogepodge | yes, also checking api coverage. | 15:55 |
| markvoelker | E.g. is it realistic for us to take this on? | 15:55 |
| hogepodge | markvoelker: me. | 15:55 |
| markvoelker | We're a pretty small group.... | 15:55 |
| rockyg | but, with api tests shifting eventually to projects, these tests could be low hanging fruit for new contributors | 15:55 |
| markvoelker | I'm sort of thinking we'd need QA's buy-in on the refactoring at the very least, and their help actually writing the code at worst. | 15:56 |
| hogepodge | markvoelker: It would be a long term project, likely a year. I have resources this summer to devote to it. | 15:56 |
| markvoelker | hogepodge: cool | 15:56 |
| markvoelker | And what about in-tree tests in the projects (Swift comes to mind) | 15:56 |
| markvoelker | ? | 15:56 |
| hogepodge | One important thing is that we don't break what's already there, and if it's overwhelming we're not stuck. | 15:56 |
| johnthetubaguy | hogepodge: rather than required resources, do we really want a list of "use cases" that need all the steps testing? | 15:57 |
| hogepodge | We're going to run out of time for another topic too, which I'll just throw out there. | 15:57 |
| rockyg | markvoelker: notmy name is working with QA on the swift stuff | 15:57 |
| eglute | 3 minute warning. we can move the discussion to the #openstack-defcore if people have the time | 15:57 |
| johnthetubaguy | Nova has some plans around "feature classification" that touch on this tempest test coverage topic | 15:58 |
| hogepodge | I brought up the nova/glance(v1/v2) flags in the cross project meeting yesterday. Hoping a spec will land for L1 to add v2 support to the nova image api | 15:58 |
| markvoelker | rockyg: yes, but what I'm getting at is: is the swift team onboard with maxmimum resource spec? And for that matter, all the other projects? If we try to refactor their tests to meet this, will they accept the patches? | 15:58 |
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| johnthetubaguy | hogepodge: so I don't think Nova support the v2 image API should block progress here | 15:58 |
| johnthetubaguy | hogepodge: there are much bigger issues that need addressing | 15:58 |
| johnthetubaguy | at least I think we need to drill down to whats required here | 15:58 |
| markvoelker | I guess what I'm getting at here is that I like the idea being proposed here, but I think it needs pretty broad visibility in order to be effective. | 15:59 |
| hogepodge | please comment on my mailing list post regarding the proposal. It's there to spark discussion and I expect it to be critically reviewed | 15:59 |
| johnthetubaguy | hogepodge: we need a single API to upload, download and list images in an OpenStack deployment, thats just not a thing right now, and there is no way to discover it right now | 15:59 |
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| johnthetubaguy | hogepodge: I have been unable to find your ML post, what was the subject? | 15:59 |
| markvoelker | hogepodge: +1, but I'd suggest it also hit the -dev mailer | 15:59 |
| rockyg | So, I think the way to get a new test/test fixed is to write the test case as a doc (reason for test, steps), get it approved, then implement in line | 15:59 |
| hogepodge | It's in the defcore list | 15:59 |
| eglute | we are out of time- if you can continue discussion, lets move it defcore irc. | 16:00 |
| johnthetubaguy | ...oh | 16:00 |
| johnthetubaguy | not sure I am on that list | 16:00 |
| * markvoelker sees johnthetubaguy's last words as good reason for this to go to -dev too | 16:00 | |
| markvoelker | johnthetubaguy: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/defcore-committee/2015-June/000818.html | 16:00 |
| rockyg | johnthetubaguy,probably not....yet :-) | 16:00 |
| johnthetubaguy | well, I am on the list, but its at the bottom of my list of things to read | 16:00 |
| johnthetubaguy | sadly :( | 16:00 |
| eglute | anyone know if there is another meeting in this room | 16:00 |
| johnthetubaguy | eglute: they usually start shouting at me round about now | 16:01 |
| eglute | ah ok | 16:01 |
| johnthetubaguy | hogepodge: sorry confused, I was meaning the email on glance v2, I didn't see that one | 16:02 |
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| hogepodge | johnthetubaguy: I haven't sent that one yet | 16:02 |
| rockyg | So, it doesn't appear that there is a follow on meeting. | 16:02 |
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| johnthetubaguy | hogepodge: just read the above email, I can respond to that | 16:02 |
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| eglute | since current topic is much larger topic, do people have time to go over flagged tests? | 16:02 |
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| * markvoelker has a few minutes more, but has already reviewed most of them in gerrit | 16:03 | |
| johnthetubaguy | hogepodge: ah, no worries, thats my confusion | 16:03 |
| rockyg | lemme just throw out an idea here: for capabilities Defcore wants that have no tests, we could write testcases, that are essentially usecases, that could then be implemented after accepted | 16:03 |
| eglute | markvoelker is always excellent with reviewing things | 16:03 |
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| eglute | anyone else has looked at the flagged tests? #link https://review.sopenstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/defcore,n,z | 16:03 |
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| hogepodge | I will review with updates. I have an engineer working on patching broken tests and can mark those. | 16:04 |
| eglute | thank you hogepodge | 16:05 |
| rockyg | need to correct link... move . to fromb efore s to after | 16:05 |
| markvoelker | eglute: typo in that link. Make that: https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/defcore,n,z | 16:05 |
| hogepodge | If we can fix this cycle I'd rather not re-add them. | 16:05 |
| eglute | thanks rockyg and markvoelker | 16:05 |
| rockyg | markvoelker, yeah that one | 16:05 |
| markvoelker | Speaking of flag reviews, we should really make a decision on this one so Chris's patches don't get held up further: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/190751/ | 16:05 |
| eglute | not sure how that link works for me | 16:06 |
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| eglute | #topic flagged tests | 16:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "flagged tests (Meeting topic: DefCore)" | 16:06 | |
| eglute | markvoelker hogepodge zehicle_irl i am ready to merge https://review.openstack.org/#/c/190751/ if everyone is good with it | 16:07 |
| zehicle_irl | need to review | 16:07 |
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| eglute | thank you zehicle_irl | 16:07 |
| eglute | #action zehicle_irl review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/190751/ | 16:08 |
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| eglute | how about this one? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/189961/ | 16:08 |
| eglute | any further comments? | 16:09 |
| markvoelker | eglute: works for me as soon as we get 190751 worked out | 16:09 |
| eglute | thanks markvoelker | 16:09 |
| eglute | any further comments on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/189927/ | 16:10 |
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| rockyg | I'll get off my duff and review the list this week. Sorry. Been swamped. | 16:11 |
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| eglute | thank you rockyg | 16:11 |
| hogepodge | That one is currently being fixed in tempest upstream, so I'd prefer to wait on it. | 16:12 |
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| eglute | hogepodge can you comment with -1 on it? | 16:12 |
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| hogepodge | Just left a comment. | 16:12 |
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| eglute | thank you | 16:12 |
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| eglute | any other opened issues that could be merged? or need more discussion? | 16:13 |
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| eglute | there are others that are opened, but for the sake of time, i rather not go over every opened issue right now | 16:13 |
| hogepodge | I need to step out, other obligations to attend to. | 16:14 |
| eglute | i am available in defcore irc later today. | 16:14 |
| eglute | thank you everyone, please comment on the hogepodge email and review issues | 16:14 |
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| eglute | i will close the meeting unless there are any last minute comments | 16:14 |
| eglute | #endmeeting | 16:14 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:14 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Jun 17 16:14:58 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:15 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/defcore/2015/defcore.2015-06-17-15.01.html | 16:15 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/defcore/2015/defcore.2015-06-17-15.01.txt | 16:15 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/defcore/2015/defcore.2015-06-17-15.01.log.html | 16:15 |
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| Rockyg | o/ | 19:59 |
| Rockyg | o/ | 19:59 |
| jokke_ | o/ | 20:00 |
| Rockyg | o/ | 20:00 |
| Rockyg | #start meeting log_wg | 20:00 |
| Rockyg | #startmeeting log_wg | 20:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Jun 17 20:01:20 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is Rockyg. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: log_wg)" | 20:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'log_wg' | 20:01 |
| jokke_ | Hello | 20:01 |
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| Rockyg | Hey. So, my chat client is messed up and I can't see thefolks in the room to ping the ones we need. Would you please? | 20:02 |
| jokke_ | give me just a sec, do we have the courtesy list somewhere? | 20:02 |
| Rockyg | Ah. got it. ping for dhellmann, bknudson | 20:03 |
| bknudson | hi | 20:03 |
| jokke_ | hi there | 20:03 |
| Rockyg | didn't know we could make a courtesy list | 20:03 |
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| Rockyg | nkrinner | 20:04 |
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| Rockyg | whoe else? | 20:04 |
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| jokke_ | I think we should be good to go | 20:06 |
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| Rockyg | OK. we had an agenda for las week | 20:06 |
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| Rockyg | One item I saw on log about request-id | 20:07 |
| Rockyg | jokke_: you couldn'tremember if you had replied to that thread | 20:07 |
| Rockyg | I don't think you did. | 20:07 |
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| Rockyg | Great if you could | 20:08 |
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| Rockyg | I'd like to discuss some of the problems we are having on all of these "user facing" specs | 20:08 |
| Rockyg | #topic problems in moving user facing specs forward | 20:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "problems in moving user facing specs forward (Meeting topic: log_wg)" | 20:09 | |
| jokke_ | yes! | 20:09 |
| Rockyg | I am seeing a pattern in API wg, Log wg and the request-id spec | 20:09 |
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| bknudson | we have problems getting reviews for specs in keystone, too. | 20:10 |
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| bknudson | maybe it's a general issue with specs | 20:10 |
| Rockyg | The problem is that the devs do not understand why users want something and how they will use it | 20:10 |
| Rockyg | bknudson: that's a very good possibility. I am certainly confused between specs and bps | 20:10 |
| bknudson | how about add a section to the spec that explains why users want something and how they will use it? | 20:11 |
| Rockyg | I thought specs would be the what of a problem definition, with solution approaches, and the bps the how, but it seems like both are how | 20:11 |
| Rockyg | bknudson: exactly. so what I want to do is gather the use cases and have that section up front | 20:12 |
| bknudson | that seems to be the general way that specs are used, they describe a solution. | 20:12 |
| jokke_ | bknudson: I'd say that's a separate issue ... we slightly touched this last week but the problem seems to be something we perhaps could influence with education. | 20:12 |
| Rockyg | So, for instance: use case: switch dies. Don't have map of hosts to vms. How do I track and repair? Then the steps an ops would want to go through to solve the issues | 20:13 |
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| bknudson | Rockyg: I think that would be useful. | 20:13 |
| Rockyg | So, there are two things users need to come up with: 1) Philosphies of how users expect to interact with cloud 2)Specific use cases to help define need and characteristics of feature | 20:14 |
| jokke_ | TBH this is actually funny to see ... my personal take was that specs replaced bps and only reason why bps are still made is to link the spec to lauchpad | 20:14 |
| bknudson | jokke_: that's how they're used in keystone. | 20:15 |
| Rockyg | The philosphy stuff is why logs have to be human readable. Why a mnemonic is better than a UUID, etc. | 20:15 |
| bknudson | there's no launchpad for cross-project specs as far as I know. | 20:16 |
| bknudson | so no bps | 20:16 |
| Rockyg | The use case shows how a feature is useful | 20:16 |
| jokke_ | bknudson: you're probably right | 20:16 |
| Rockyg | bknudson: there might be, but if there is, it's openstack | 20:16 |
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| jokke_ | Rockyg: that sounds like a good approach ... I have been trying to think how we could educate our dev base to understand the ops view/side of certain specs | 20:17 |
| Rockyg | So, no bps. But, the xproject spec could link to project bps that implement at the project level | 20:17 |
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| bknudson | the bps are more dynamic than the spec. the bp has to link to the spec. | 20:18 |
| Rockyg | I think we haven't gotten more ops participation because they think in cases that they usually call incidents | 20:18 |
| Rockyg | bknudson: yeah. I see that. | 20:18 |
| bknudson | operators would probably rather not have the switch die to begin with. | 20:18 |
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| Rockyg | So, what I want to do is use an etherpad to collect specific use cases that highlight a single feature and how it is used. | 20:19 |
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| Rockyg | But, if we get other use cases, we can move them around to the proper etherpad | 20:19 |
| bknudson | I don't think it even needs to be that complicated -- how about just the example where a user types the wrong password and doesn't understand the response? | 20:20 |
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| jokke_ | Rockyg: is that current features or proposed features you're referring to? | 20:20 |
| Rockyg | I think we can get ops and usergroup to put use cases on an etherpad | 20:20 |
| Rockyg | jokke_: both. Start with request ids and error codes and a writeup for consistency | 20:20 |
| bknudson | I think it's worth trying out the use case etherpad | 20:20 |
| Rockyg | Then, if it works, we can start focusing on message payloads | 20:21 |
| bknudson | if ops aren't willing to contribute then maybe it's not that important after all | 20:21 |
| jokke_ | Rockyg: so were you thinking to pull those then from the etherpad to the specs? | 20:21 |
| Rockyg | Yes. In some form. But likely capture them in the use case repository the product wg is building | 20:21 |
| jokke_ | I see the biggest problem here not being the ops & users but if we just link some use case etherpad to the specs we get TL;DR and again wasted effort | 20:22 |
| jokke_ | I mean from the dev side | 20:22 |
| Rockyg | The product wg intends to take the use cases as the framework for the specs. So build the spec around the use case. Sort of a hand-off from users to devs | 20:23 |
| jokke_ | k | 20:23 |
| Rockyg | So, the info will be in the spec for the feature. If devs don't like the approach, they can suggest something that works for them but gets them to understand where the spec is coming from | 20:24 |
| jokke_ | fair enough | 20:25 |
| Rockyg | a for instance use case for the error code is: Ops gets ERROR Invalid VM | 20:25 |
| bknudson | Rockyg: do you already have a use case that you know of? | 20:25 |
| Rockyg | Yeah. The one I just mentioned, but I likely have the message part off | 20:25 |
| bknudson | I'm not an operator so I don't know if my use case is something they really care about | 20:26 |
| Rockyg | It happens much too often, and is generated by flow through from multiple places in the code | 20:26 |
| bknudson | I'm just a guy who has to answer questions from operators. | 20:26 |
| Rockyg | Do other operators care? | 20:26 |
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| Rockyg | So, you are a user. In your case, a level two or three responder. You have to be able to quickly dig into issues. | 20:27 |
| bknudson | maybe need a place in the etherpad where other ops can weigh in on whether they like the use case | 20:27 |
| Rockyg | Maybe we need to actually write up something about user roles. What the do, what they expect, etc. | 20:27 |
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| Rockyg | That's why the etherpad. they don't need anything but the link and a loging and the discussion ensues. They don't need to know or understand gerritt | 20:28 |
| bknudson | as I said, I like the etherpad idea as an experiment | 20:28 |
| jokke_ | I start to like it ;) | 20:28 |
| bknudson | might want to seed it with your use case | 20:28 |
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| Rockyg | Or yours. Or both. | 20:29 |
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| bknudson | I can add mine. | 20:29 |
| Rockyg | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/Operator_Use_Cases | 20:30 |
| bknudson | there's probably more issues in my use case than just that you can't track the request through the system. | 20:30 |
| jokke_ | bknudson: even better | 20:30 |
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| bknudson | although tracking the request will be a requirement | 20:30 |
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| Rockyg | Go for it. I'll add an intro and put a use case out there. the invalid thing is a hot button for a number of ops It the trunk of a many branched problem | 20:31 |
| bknudson | I'm thinking about -- keystone doesn't send back adequate error responses, horizon doesn't display them. | 20:31 |
| jokke_ | ignoring amit213 if needed someone ping me to remove that | 20:31 |
| jokke_ | amit213: please fix your client | 20:31 |
| Rockyg | bknudson: I think use cases will likely encompass a number of needs. They tend to be an integrated process that sucks in everything they touch ;-) | 20:32 |
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| jokke_ | bknudson: that's actually pretty common issue around and not even being only related to horizon | 20:33 |
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| bknudson | but if we could show how "nice" it can be compared to how it is... | 20:33 |
| bknudson | that you look in the keystone log and see "this user tried to login at 3:30 and the password was wrong" and tell them, vs having no idea. | 20:34 |
| Rockyg | Yeah. I would like to see for use cases: how it *should* be, plus how it is now. The advantages of the new approach have to be very obvious. | 20:35 |
| bknudson | user calls in with the error message "login failed, request ID 12423" | 20:35 |
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| bknudson | vs, user calls in and says "login failed" | 20:35 |
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| jokke_ | hmm-m perhaps we should just bite the bullet and make one example ... get those things locally implemented to one specific trace we can easily reproduce that is absolutely crap at the moment and provide before & after results | 20:35 |
| bknudson | and all you have is a pile of logs that show users sometimes logging in and sometimes failing with no reason. | 20:35 |
| jokke_ | bknudson: but telling that user failed to log in due wrong password in the logs is security threat, you know ;P | 20:37 |
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| jokke_ | login even | 20:37 |
| Rockyg | So, that points out another issue. RequestID can't be 32 characters long. It has to be something that is transmittable over a phone line in a reasonable length of time with little to no errors | 20:37 |
| jokke_ | ++ | 20:38 |
| Rockyg | bknudson: even if the logs aren't on any public facing network ;-) | 20:38 |
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| jokke_ | numeral rather than uuid thinking it now in that light | 20:38 |
| Rockyg | that's why I started the table of logs. So we can demonstrate which logs are security threats and which aren't | 20:38 |
| Rockyg | Whereas, if the message has login failed id 1234:this message repeats 500 times in 10 seconds, then you know you have someone trying to break in. | 20:40 |
| Rockyg | And, you can save 500 lines in the log file | 20:40 |
| jokke_ | ;) | 20:41 |
| Rockyg | You could also identify a config issue if the login attempt is from a system rather than a human | 20:41 |
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| Rockyg | OK. So let's summarize some of this: | 20:42 |
| * dhellmann apologizes for arriving late | 20:44 | |
| Rockyg | #action item: Put two prospective use cases into etherpad https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/Operator_Use_Cases | 20:44 |
| Rockyg | #action item: Advertise use case etherpad to ops to get them to start collaborating on it | 20:44 |
| Rockyg | hi dhellmann! | 20:44 |
| Rockyg | #action item: work with other xproject wg to write up philosphy of what the user wants out of this openstack "thing" | 20:45 |
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| Rockyg | #action item: include a use case for clarifying *why* Error codes are worthwhile implementing | 20:46 |
| jokke_ | and why request Id's needs to be traceable and easily communicated | 20:47 |
| Rockyg | #action item: suggest same for request id spec and for API wg | 20:47 |
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| Rockyg | #info What do all these groups, requests have in common? Humans want the information to use in tracking down problems! So make them human! readable | 20:48 |
| Rockyg | Anything else? | 20:49 |
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| dhellmann | some of those sound like really big action items | 20:50 |
| Rockyg | #topic open discussion | 20:50 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: log_wg)" | 20:50 | |
| bknudson | dhellmann: we signed you up for the items since you weren't here. | 20:51 |
| dhellmann | bknudson: join the club | 20:51 |
| Rockyg | dhellmann: Yeah. But small bites in some areas and big bites in others. Need a way to educate developers on how users are trying to use their work. | 20:51 |
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| jokke_ | The M summit talks are open. Should we propose panel discussion around this over there? | 20:52 |
| dhellmann | Rockyg: even the spec for error codes is a "boil the ocean" sort of change that's going to be hard to make incrementally. I'm worried that we're trying to solve too much at once. | 20:52 |
| bknudson | this ocean needs boiling | 20:53 |
| jokke_ | bknudson: ++ | 20:53 |
| jokke_ | but I agree with dhellmann | 20:53 |
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| bknudson | dhellmann: what's your alternative for the error codes spec? | 20:54 |
| Rockyg | Yeah. I'm working on getting enough education into the front of the spec to get a firmer foundation. The error that all the ops hate, about invalid VM is a good example of error actually coming from multiple places and if every place that generates a log message has a separate id, then at lease there is better info | 20:54 |
| jokke_ | dhellmann: just before you joined us we were talking about how to document the usecases and the benefits of the proposed change. Perhaps we should take one example where it's awfully wrong and provide before/after scenario for people to look at | 20:54 |
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| dhellmann | bknudson: I would like for someone to think about a solution that doesn't involve us touching every single error message by hand. Can we use a MD5 sum of the error message as a code? Can we use the file and line number? I don't know the answer, but I know that we're not going to succeed if we have to change all of OpenStack by hand. | 20:55 |
| jokke_ | dhellmann: would you think that help to open few vulcanos under the ocean? | 20:55 |
| dhellmann | jokke_: my point is that no use case justification is going to counter the fact that the size of the change you're asking for is far too big | 20:56 |
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| Rockyg | dhellmann: so, md5 wouldn't work because it's hard for a human. File and line number might, even if it eventually changes when stuff gets added/removed from file | 20:57 |
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| jokke_ | yeah the biggest problem with the file & line is that if it's dynamic we get few codes changing every commit | 20:57 |
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| dhellmann | it's also not clear if we need them for every single log message, or just errors sent back through the API to callers | 20:58 |
| Rockyg | jokke_: we'd have to start with that, to get it going, but then *not* change it once it's set | 20:58 |
| dhellmann | because those are 2 different things, and the latter is much smaller | 20:58 |
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| dhellmann | Rockyg: no, I mean, we need to compute these things at runtime. We can't go through N million lines of code making this change by hand. | 20:59 |
| jokke_ | dhellmann: that's actually really good point. Would you think we could succeed if it was the later? | 20:59 |
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| dhellmann | jokke_: you still have the problem of having a lot of error cases, so I don't know | 20:59 |
| dhellmann | it's far far less than the number of log calls, though | 20:59 |
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| Rockyg | dhellmann: you can't go changing these at run time. Ops remember the common ones and know exactly what to do. If they are always changing, then again, they are pretty useless to ops | 21:00 |
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| jokke_ | how about module+integer checksum of the message? | 21:00 |
| bknudson | definitely not for debug logs | 21:00 |
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| dhellmann | Rockyg: I understand that, but have we thought about different ways to compute an id at runtime that is unlikely to change? | 21:01 |
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| jokke_ | bknudson: we need to get the needed logs out of debug level logging before we can make that statement ;P | 21:01 |
| bknudson | y, that's part of boiling the ocean | 21:01 |
| Rockyg | So, One thing that can be done: have the placeholder print for every message that doesn't have an error code. Ops will file bugs on messages they see a lot that don't have a code and they think they need them | 21:01 |
| dhellmann | jokke_: doing *that* work is something that the devs wouldn't fight | 21:01 |
| dhellmann | Rockyg: what is an "error message" to you? a log message going to ERROR level, or an API error response? | 21:01 |
| bknudson | dhellmann: you think devs won't complain about having to review a bunch of logging changes? | 21:02 |
| jokke_ | having proj-mod-numeral checksum autogenerated would definitely work! | 21:02 |
| bknudson | I doubt they'll make time for it. | 21:02 |
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| jokke_ | like GLA-Reg-3735576 ... the numeral needs to be bit longer than optimal for humans but that would work | 21:03 |
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| dhellmann | bknudson: if those changes are aligned with the logging standards, and in consumable chunks (not giant patch bombs), we can make incremental progress in some projects | 21:03 |
| Rockyg | This needs to be a "while you're in there" and "low hanging fruit" approach. Start with ERROR and if needed, work down | 21:03 |
| dhellmann | jokke_: where do we get the "numeral" value? | 21:03 |
| Rockyg | or up. I never remember which way this level thing on logs goes | 21:03 |
| jokke_ | dhellmann: as mentioned above, just integer checksum of the message | 21:03 |
| jokke_ | and by message I mean the payload itself | 21:04 |
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| Rockyg | Integer checksum might work. That's limited to 5 places, IIrC | 21:05 |
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| jokke_ | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16008670/python-how-to-hash-a-string-into-8-digits something like that | 21:06 |
| bknudson | are we going to put the code in the call to log.error() ? | 21:06 |
| Rockyg | dhellmann: and each module would have its own pool as I was thinking the breakdown would be by modules like nov-cnd (nova conductor) or some such. The way the log files are broken out. | 21:06 |
| jokke_ | it would also automatically change the error code at the point where the log message changes (which fairly often means that the situation has changed as well) | 21:06 |
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| jokke_ | bknudson: I think that would solve this for most of the projects at once | 21:07 |
| Rockyg | Funny, I was just thinking about hash codes yesterday or Monday.... | 21:07 |
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| dhellmann | bknudson: that's what I was thinking, if we can come up with a way to do it | 21:07 |
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| jokke_ | taking hash out of log message should not be too heavy operation and having collisions within same module means that same message is being logged in multiple places which is already worth of raising a bug | 21:09 |
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| jokke_ | only problem is that we would like to have the hash from the english message before any dynamic insertations | 21:10 |
| Rockyg | True. And if done right, we could always fall back on fixing specific error message error codes if they change to fast or cause collisions. | 21:10 |
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| jokke_ | we're badly out of time, but THANKS dhellmann that actually could work! | 21:10 |
| Rockyg | So, hash the source code line with the %s etc. Then do the substitution? | 21:10 |
| jokke_ | Rockyg: yup | 21:11 |
| Rockyg | Oh, wow! Boy, this was just getting interesting! | 21:11 |
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| Rockyg | So. Lots of food for thought. Also, dhellmann, will you be in oslo room? I need to talk about other stuff with you. | 21:12 |
| dhellmann | Rockyg: yes, I'm there | 21:12 |
| Rockyg | anyway, very productive, I think. | 21:12 |
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| Rockyg | Thanks everyone! | 21:12 |
| jokke_ | Thanks everyone! | 21:12 |
| Rockyg | #endmeeting | 21:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 21:12 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Jun 17 21:12:30 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:12 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/log_wg/2015/log_wg.2015-06-17-20.01.html | 21:12 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/log_wg/2015/log_wg.2015-06-17-20.01.txt | 21:12 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/log_wg/2015/log_wg.2015-06-17-20.01.log.html | 21:12 |
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| sdake | #startmeeting kolla | 22:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Jun 17 22:01:06 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is sdake. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 22:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 22:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: kolla)" | 22:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'kolla' | 22:01 |
| harmw | yeej! | 22:01 |
| sdake | #topic rollcall | 22:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "rollcall (Meeting topic: kolla)" | 22:01 | |
| harmw | 'night | 22:01 |
| rhallisey | hi | 22:01 |
| bmace | here | 22:01 |
| nihilifer | o/ | 22:01 |
| jpeeler | o/ | 22:01 |
| akwasnie | HI ALL | 22:01 |
| daneyon_ | hola | 22:01 |
| akwasnie | hi all | 22:01 |
| sdake | o/ welcome to the party :) | 22:02 |
| Slower | o/ | 22:02 |
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| * Slower dances | 22:02 | |
| daneyon_ | let the fun begin | 22:02 |
| mandre | here o/ | 22:02 |
| harmw | hurry hurry! | 22:02 |
| sdake | slower I hope you hae your mustache wax applied :) | 22:02 |
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| daneyon_ | anyone see this spec #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/189157/9/ | 22:03 |
| sdake | waiting couple more minutes for stragglers | 22:03 |
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| sdake | daneyon one thing at a time :) | 22:03 |
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| sdake | #topic announcements | 22:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "announcements (Meeting topic: kolla)" | 22:03 | |
| sdake | Kolla midcycle will be called Kolla-poluza | 22:03 |
| sdake | yay for big party :) | 22:04 |
| daneyon_ | love it | 22:04 |
| sdake | daneyon suggested a vote, but i think we odnt need to vote on taking a bathroom break :) | 22:04 |
| daneyon_ | what bands are on the ticket? | 22:04 |
| sdake | anyone is welcome to attend | 22:04 |
| sdake | not aerosmith for sure :) | 22:04 |
| sdake | few logistics | 22:04 |
| daneyon_ | lol | 22:04 |
| sdake | wireless will e available | 22:04 |
| sdake | hopefully I can swing some refreshments as in soda/water | 22:05 |
| sdake | and lunch should be provided | 22:05 |
| sdake | probably pizza or something equally cheap :) | 22:05 |
| sdake | we will have webex available | 22:05 |
| daneyon_ | and equally unhealthy | 22:05 |
| sdake | for those folks that can't swing the travel budget | 22:05 |
| sdake | but the webex experiene will be suboptimal | 22:05 |
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| sdake | I'd highly recommend figurign out how to get to san jose | 22:05 |
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| sdake | I will announce the dates as soon as CSCO facilities gets back to me | 22:06 |
| sdake | I am leaning towardsa a tuesday/wednesday | 22:06 |
| sdake | towwards end of month | 22:06 |
| sdake | (of july) | 22:06 |
| daneyon_ | i like that | 22:06 |
| sdake | but i can't gurantee at this time | 22:06 |
| sdake | any questions re midcycle? | 22:06 |
| harmw | not at this point | 22:07 |
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| sdake | anything I can do to help eople out that doesn't involve writing travel checks :) | 22:07 |
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| sdake | one note, and this is a little onerous | 22:07 |
| sdake | everyone has to be escorted in a csco facility by a csco employee | 22:08 |
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| sdake | which means me and daneyon | 22:08 |
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| mandre | will the agenda be written in advance? | 22:08 |
| sdake | mandre next week we will start on that | 22:08 |
| sdake | agenda is full fort oday | 22:08 |
| daneyon_ | and i only accept $ | 22:08 |
| sdake | i intend to have 50 minute sessions with 10 minute breaks | 22:08 |
| rhallisey | daneyon_, are you expecting tips for your escort? | 22:09 |
| sdake | any special requests for soda types, please send me an email | 22:09 |
| harmw | i'll be interested in the agenda sdake | 22:09 |
| mandre | good, it's important for people attending via webex | 22:09 |
| rhallisey | :) | 22:09 |
| daneyon_ | lol | 22:09 |
| harmw | yep mandre | 22:09 |
| rhallisey | I'll keep change handy daneyon_ | 22:09 |
| sdake | can't gurantee there will be soda - I'd like to buy it myself but this pisses off the facilities people | 22:09 |
| sdake | but I'm fighting for it :) | 22:09 |
| sdake | (and water of course) | 22:10 |
| daneyon_ | only healthy... water and tofu | 22:10 |
| sdake | no beer allowed at csco facilities btw | 22:10 |
| sdake | so that will have to remain for after our sessions | 22:10 |
| Slower | oh and I thought that was code | 22:10 |
| sdake | sessions from 10am to 5pm | 22:10 |
| sdake | #topic new core training | 22:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "new core training (Meeting topic: kolla)" | 22:10 | |
| sdake | we hae some new cores, this is mostly directed at samyaple and harmw | 22:10 |
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| sdake | but is relevant for folks that aspire to join the core reviewer team of kolla | 22:11 |
| sdake | the difference between core reviewer and develoepr is core reiers can +2 or -2 changes | 22:11 |
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| sdake | and set workflow to +1 | 22:11 |
| sdake | the way it works is | 22:11 |
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| sdake | 1. someone submits a patch (this is an inherit +1 or +2 from them) | 22:11 |
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| sdake | 2. first core reviewer reviews patch - if its +2 | 22:12 |
| sdake | 3. second core reviewer reviews patch | 22:12 |
| sdake | if its +2, set workflow to +1 | 22:12 |
| sdake | then it will hit jenkins which will merge it in the repo | 22:12 |
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| jpeeler | this might be helpful: http://docs.openstack.org/infra/manual/core.html | 22:12 |
| harmw | understood, and probably something worth to document somewhere if not done already? | 22:13 |
| harmw | well, like that indeed :) | 22:13 |
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| sdake | a -1 vote = work required to improve spec, a +1 vote means non-core reviewer thinks the patch requires no further work | 22:13 |
| sdake | a +2 vote = no work required from submitter | 22:13 |
| sdake | a -2 vote means one of two things | 22:13 |
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| sdake | it is either a veto, which means the review is effectively dead unless the core reviewer changes their mind | 22:13 |
| sdake | I also use -2 to block changes around release time | 22:14 |
| sdake | don't be concerned with those | 22:14 |
| sdake | this is just me getting my act together | 22:14 |
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| sdake | I'm working on elimiting this use of -2 | 22:14 |
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| sdake | I highly recommend using -2 with severe caution | 22:14 |
| harmw | can't workflow-1 help with that case? | 22:14 |
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| sdake | workflow -1 is meant to mean a review needs more work from the commiter, shoudlnt' be set by reviewers | 22:15 |
| harmw | oh ok | 22:15 |
| sdake | but yes workflow -1 would help with that case | 22:15 |
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| sdake | the problem with workflow -1 is it is reset on each new revision fo the patch | 22:15 |
| sdake | which means I need to stay on top of changes in the review queue | 22:15 |
| sdake | its just a technical thing, -2 is easier for me to block for a short period | 22:15 |
| harmw | got it | 22:16 |
| sdake | these are going away as we start adhering to a strict follow-the-release-dates policy in our project | 22:16 |
| harmw | next! | 22:16 |
| sdake | yup | 22:16 |
| sdake | #topic specifications review | 22:16 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "specifications review (Meeting topic: kolla)" | 22:16 | |
| sdake | lets start with the easy one first | 22:16 |
| sdake | i'd like people in this meeting to read the review (everyone on the core team) and vote according to the instructions in the review | 22:16 |
| sdake | at this point I'm not interested in 100% technical accuracy | 22:17 |
| sdake | specs are evil, but sometimes necessary | 22:17 |
| sdake | more interested in seeing who supports doesn't support or wnats to veto a review | 22:17 |
| harmw | i've +2'd both H-A and mansible | 22:17 |
| sdake | The HA spec review: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/181983/ | 22:18 |
| sdake | please read and indicate in channel when you have voted | 22:18 |
| harmw | think we're done with 99% on both of 'em, it's time to actually start doing something to keep us from staying way to long in a design phase | 22:18 |
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| sdake | note if you dont want to vote, please indicatey ou are abstaining in the cocmments section | 22:18 |
| bmace | right on harmw | 22:19 |
| sdake | when your done voting plase indicate in channel so we can take a look at the specs | 22:19 |
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| sdake | I have read the HA spec and approve with +2 | 22:20 |
| sdake | I'd like all cores to review | 22:20 |
| sdake | so I can get a feel for support for the spec | 22:20 |
| harmw | done | 22:20 |
| harmw | and, done | 22:20 |
| daneyon_ | rhallisey are you now expecting a tip to vote on the HA spec? lol!!!!!! | 22:20 |
| sdake | we still will folow openstack best practices with requiring 2 core reviewers not submitting the spec to approve the spec | 22:20 |
| sdake | but dont workflow justyet | 22:20 |
| rhallisey | I thought I did O.o | 22:20 |
| sdake | if you voted please incicate that in channel | 22:20 |
| rhallisey | ok done | 22:20 |
| sdake | this is called a "rollcall vote" | 22:21 |
| * jpeeler voted | 22:21 | |
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| daneyon_ | +2 but i don't count | 22:21 |
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| mfalatic | Ok voted | 22:21 |
| sdake | daneyon please vote as well | 22:21 |
| mandre | voted on the HA spec | 22:22 |
| sdake | if you submitted the spec please vote | 22:22 |
| sdake | that leaves sam yaple | 22:22 |
| sdake | he alrady voted +2 previouly | 22:22 |
| mandre | i need some time to catch up on the multinode spec, a lot of discussion happened overnight | 22:22 |
| sdake | so looks like we have great community consensus on ha spec | 22:22 |
| daneyon_ | I did in the review and in irc | 22:22 |
| sdake | and no work items needed | 22:22 |
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| sdake | I'll mark workflow +1 | 22:22 |
| jpeeler | wish gerrit automatically refreshed | 22:22 |
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| sdake | ok next spec | 22:23 |
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| sdake | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/189157/ | 22:23 |
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| sdake | samyaple and I are not able to set workflow +1 on this because we are the authors of the change | 22:24 |
| harmw | but I can :) | 22:24 |
| sdake | there have been about 150 comments on this specification | 22:24 |
| daneyon_ | just a little bit of interest :-) | 22:24 |
| sdake | harmw your elected if there are two core votes then | 22:24 |
| harmw | one of those 2 my own | 22:24 |
| sdake | I think version 1.0 wasn't quite right, and version 2.0 was quite right | 22:24 |
| sdake | please spend the time to read the review comments | 22:24 |
| sdake | those are the most important | 22:25 |
| sdake | just on the last review | 22:25 |
| harmw | oh, 3, yours is way up on top | 22:25 |
| sdake | all other revies have been addressed | 22:25 |
| sdake | please respond in channel after you have finished reading the review comments | 22:25 |
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| harmw | did tht earlier :) | 22:25 |
| * harmw done | 22:25 | |
| sdake | I voted +2 on this spec | 22:25 |
| harmw | here as well, want me to +1 the workflow? | 22:26 |
| sdake | harmw no we are doing a rollcall vote | 22:26 |
| harmw | oh, excuse me | 22:26 |
| sdake | harmw patience young padiwan :) | 22:26 |
| harmw | more like, eager getting to bed :p | 22:26 |
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| Slower | honestly docker-compose isn't even the important part for tripleo, we just need a way to deploy with heat | 22:27 |
| sdake | the reason for the rollcall is I want to understand what level of support the spec has from the core reviewer team | 22:27 |
| Slower | we can use docker directly or some other tool | 22:27 |
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| sdake | i'll give it 10-15 minutes | 22:27 |
| sdake | bbiaf :) | 22:27 |
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| mandre | sdake: do we need to make a decision on the repo split now? | 22:28 |
| mstachow | huh, hi everybody - my IRC client breaks up and I didn't see any conversation here | 22:28 |
| sdake | mandre I am veto on the repo split at this point in time | 22:29 |
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| sdake | hence my -2 comments on that partof the review | 22:30 |
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| jpeeler | sdake: are you against it just in this timeframe or forever? | 22:30 |
| mandre | ok, so we're not going to decide on the split in the next 15 minutes I take it :) | 22:30 |
| mandre | I good with the spec then | 22:30 |
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| sdake | mandre feel free to vote | 22:31 |
| mfalatic | I'm good with the spec provided outstanding questions get resolved. voting. | 22:31 |
| sdake | jpeeler future possible to predict, but I feel it derails out l2 objectives | 22:31 |
| sdake | or atlast mine :) | 22:31 |
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| sdake | jpeeler I think what will happen is our deployment tools will be tightly integrated with our container tech | 22:32 |
| sdake | jpeeler but our container tech will not be tihgtly integrated with our deployment tooling | 22:32 |
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| sdake | hence, containers will be highly reusable | 22:32 |
| sdake | deployment tooling not reusable | 22:32 |
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| daneyon_ | I don't think we are going to reach consensus on the spec, so should we just +1 the workflow since 2 core's other than the authors +2'd? | 22:32 |
| sdake | I want to finis hteh job on the rollcall vote | 22:33 |
| sdake | so when you done indicate in channel | 22:33 |
| mfalatic | voted | 22:33 |
| daneyon_ | I'm torn | 22:33 |
| daneyon_ | not sure if I can +2 or -2 | 22:34 |
| sdake | -2 kills the review and would be drastically bad for our community | 22:34 |
| daneyon_ | right | 22:34 |
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| daneyon_ | +2 or -1 i mean | 22:34 |
| sdake | but vote how you please, your were voted into the core team because people trust your judgement | 22:34 |
| daneyon_ | i love the community | 22:34 |
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| harmw | and it loves you! | 22:35 |
| daneyon_ | a big love fest | 22:35 |
| mstachow | <3 | 22:35 |
| harmw | are we done rolling round? | 22:35 |
| Slower | what is the kolla manifesto? | 22:35 |
| daneyon_ | shame on u... haha!!! | 22:35 |
| daneyon_ | check the dev wiki | 22:35 |
| rhallisey | you don't have a tattoo of it? | 22:35 |
| sdake | slower https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Kolla | 22:36 |
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| sdake | if you have already voted, please let me know | 22:36 |
| * harmw check | 22:36 | |
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| sdake | or if your notchanging your ote based uopon the comments in the various review threads | 22:36 |
| sdake | let me know when the rollcall is done :) | 22:37 |
| harmw | how does one tell? | 22:38 |
| daneyon_ | I have changed my vote to +2 | 22:38 |
| harmw | (or am I asking stupid questions now?) | 22:38 |
| daneyon_ | bc I have changed my mind after thinking about the separate repo thing for the last several hours | 22:39 |
| daneyon_ | i see pro's and con's to both approaches | 22:39 |
| jpeeler | am i blocking the spec with -1 or no? | 22:39 |
| Slower | I actually think we should give it a few more days | 22:39 |
| * jpeeler is wondering if he should go down in glory or submit | 22:40 | |
| Slower | haha | 22:40 |
| daneyon_ | i think by moving the spec forward as-is provides greater good than harm to the project | 22:40 |
| bmace | all the code will be in a separate directory. it isn't like, if in the future it is decided to split it out, it can't be done. i don't see waiting helping anything | 22:40 |
| harmw | I think this spec has seen enough revisions and we should just start here as well | 22:40 |
| rhallisey | still thinking | 22:41 |
| daneyon_ | It may be more difficult to split deploy/content in the future or maybe it never gets split. However, we need multi-node now, we need HA now. We can revisit the split later on if we feel it is really hindering the project | 22:41 |
| Slower | when I see disagreement I tend to think time will make decisions clearer, but that's just me | 22:41 |
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| harmw | c'mon rhallisey :) | 22:42 |
| jpeeler | i changed as well, but i wish time constraints weren't influencing this decision | 22:42 |
| jpeeler | i also wish i had a million dollars fyi | 22:43 |
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| Slower | jpeeler: haha :) yeah.. | 22:43 |
| harmw | yea, and i wish you would share those with me jpeeler | 22:43 |
| rhallisey | k fine with me | 22:44 |
| mstachow | harmw is right jpeeler, share those with me | 22:44 |
| Slower | peer pressure ftw! | 22:44 |
| mstachow | ;) | 22:44 |
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| harmw | sdake: I believe thats it | 22:44 |
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| sdake | jpeeler you dont block the spec with -1 | 22:45 |
| sdake | jpeeler ack on the million dollars | 22:46 |
| sdake | sorry I only have 1 hour to work with :( | 22:46 |
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| sdake | ok so rhallisey is the last one to vote | 22:47 |
| sdake | vote what you think is right andlets move on | 22:47 |
| rhallisey | I did | 22:47 |
| daneyon_ | i think he did | 22:47 |
| sdake | oh cool | 22:47 |
| sdake | ok so can someone confirm all votes are accounted for in the spec? | 22:47 |
| rhallisey | I'd prefer more time, but doesn't seem we have it | 22:47 |
| sdake | harmw your elected to confirm thta :) | 22:48 |
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| sdake | ok I'e had a quick look over the voting | 22:49 |
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| sdake | looks like we are all on the same page regarding scope and mission | 22:49 |
| sdake | so this whole spec thing | 22:49 |
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| sdake | PITA | 22:49 |
| sdake | dont do a spec plz - its painful | 22:50 |
| harmw | hehe | 22:50 |
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| sdake | mature projects like nova etc core teams are threatening to rage quite the core teams because of the specs process in place | 22:50 |
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| sdake | I think it is really an anti-pattern to proper openstack development | 22:50 |
| harmw | I see checkmarks and +1's now | 22:50 |
| sdake | harmw hit theworkflow +1 button plz | 22:50 |
| * harmw check | 22:50 | |
| sdake | ok thanks for taking the time to review those | 22:51 |
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| sdake | that really sucked up alot of the agenda that I had planned | 22:51 |
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| sdake | on the plus side, now everyone knows everyones thoughts on this spec | 22:51 |
| sdake | but it looks like we hae broad agreement to fullfill our roles as scor ereviewers to support the review of this work | 22:51 |
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| sdake | if not borad agreement on the actual implementation :) | 22:52 |
| harmw | aaand, next agenda item :P | 22:52 |
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| harmw | don't tell me we hve more specs to go through... | 22:52 |
| sdake | I am going to have to adjut our agenda to focus on our highest priority task atm | 22:52 |
| sdake | #topic openstack liberty 1 finalization | 22:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "openstack liberty 1 finalization (Meeting topic: kolla)" | 22:53 | |
| sdake | deadline is July 25th | 22:53 |
| sdake | https://launchpad.net/kolla/+milestone/liberty-1 | 22:53 |
| sdake | #link https://launchpad.net/kolla/+milestone/liberty-1 | 22:53 |
| sdake | so 14 blueprints, 37 bugs fixed | 22:54 |
| sdake | tremendous velocity ! | 22:54 |
| sdake | yay we are making hugeprogress | 22:54 |
| harmw | seriously, we have bugs? | 22:54 |
| sdake | samyaple has one blueprint that is in not started state | 22:54 |
| sdake | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/kolla/+spec/one-interface | 22:54 |
| sdake | eerything else is started or in code review | 22:54 |
| sdake | I am going to bounce that blueprint to liberty 2 | 22:55 |
| sdake | i knwo this dmaages our ci efforts | 22:55 |
| harmw | I'll be happy to go through that one though | 22:55 |
| sdake | but we are blocked by a whole bunch of stuff | 22:55 |
| harmw | but ok | 22:55 |
| sdake | I've got a plan to get er unblocked | 22:55 |
| sdake | and people are actively working on it | 22:55 |
| harmw | (4 minute warning) | 22:55 |
| sdake | but its not going to happen before liberty 1 | 22:55 |
| sdake | ya i know time | 22:55 |
| *** sigmavirus24_awa is now known as sigmavirus24 | 22:55 | |
| sdake | all of our blueprints are in needs code review | 22:56 |
| sdake | reviewers, please spend the next week gettingthoe throug hthe gate | 22:56 |
| *** sigmavirus24 is now known as sigmavirus24_awa | 22:56 | |
| sdake | i want to release eactly ont he 25th of july | 22:57 |
| harmw | ok | 22:57 |
| sdake | committers, please fix up the issues | 22:57 |
| daneyon_ | will do | 22:57 |
| mandre | got it | 22:57 |
| sdake | #topic open discussion | 22:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: kolla)" | 22:57 | |
| sdake | aologies for3 minutes of open discussion | 22:57 |
| sdake | I'll try to plan timing better | 22:57 |
| sdake | hard with open ended objectives :) | 22:57 |
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| sdake | we can spill over into #kolla | 22:57 |
| sdake | at the conclusion of our meeting time | 22:58 |
| rhallisey | we need to get a bigger time slot | 22:58 |
| Slower | no beer at cisco?!?! | 22:58 |
| rhallisey | lol | 22:58 |
| sdake | rhallisey lol | 22:58 |
| sdake | slower 70k person company - bean counters ftw :) | 22:58 |
| Slower | that's the elephant topic in the room.. man oh man.. | 22:58 |
| harmw | night all! | 22:58 |
| sdake | just one last thing | 22:58 |
| harmw | which is.. | 22:59 |
| sdake | i'd rather not have to go through these rollcall votes on specs | 22:59 |
| sdake | I'd rather no have specs entirely | 22:59 |
| sdake | but sometimes they will be necessary | 22:59 |
| sdake | I am open to discussion on a better way to handle these | 22:59 |
| sdake | since specs are generally done to buid consensus | 22:59 |
| sdake | and consensus means there is contention :) | 22:59 |
| sdake | feel free to have in channel or privately | 22:59 |
| sdake | thanks for attending folks - apologies meeting was so mentally taxing :) | 23:00 |
| sdake | #endmeeting | 23:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 23:00 | |
| harmw | 'till next time! | 23:00 |
| Slower | that was good, thanks sdake | 23:00 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Jun 17 23:00:31 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 23:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/kolla/2015/kolla.2015-06-17-22.01.html | 23:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/kolla/2015/kolla.2015-06-17-22.01.txt | 23:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/kolla/2015/kolla.2015-06-17-22.01.log.html | 23:00 |
| rhallisey | ya sorry for the delay :( | 23:00 |
| sdake | slower hope you learned something :) | 23:00 |
| Slower | ya, no beer at cisco | 23:00 |
| mstachow | thanks everybody ! | 23:01 |
| sdake | that too :) | 23:01 |
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| rhallisey | thanks | 23:01 |
| nihilifer | good night | 23:01 |
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