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| krtaylor | #startmeeting third-party | 04:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Apr 8 04:00:19 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is krtaylor. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 04:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 04:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: third-party)" | 04:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'third_party' | 04:00 |
| krtaylor | anyone here for third party ci working group meeting? | 04:00 |
| sweston | o/ | 04:00 |
| patrickeast | o/ | 04:00 |
| krtaylor | hi patrickeast sweston | 04:01 |
| sweston | hi krtaylor | 04:01 |
| patrickeast | hi | 04:01 |
| krtaylor | well, hopefully I won't get kicked tonight :) | 04:02 |
| krtaylor | fairly light agenda | 04:02 |
| krtaylor | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/ThirdParty#4.2F8.2F15_0400_UTC | 04:02 |
| krtaylor | I just wanted to bring up the session proposal | 04:03 |
| krtaylor | for liberty summit | 04:03 |
| krtaylor | topics are listed here: | 04:03 |
| krtaylor | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/liberty-third-party-ci-working-group | 04:04 |
| krtaylor | if you have topics to discuss, please add them, and put your nick next to it | 04:04 |
| krtaylor | sweston, patrickeast - do either of you have anything to add? | 04:05 |
| patrickeast | nothing right now, if i think of anything i'll definitely add to the etherpad | 04:06 |
| sweston | krtaylor: I won't be able to make the liberty summit, unfortunately ... but will definitely be at the next summit later this year | 04:06 |
| krtaylor | sweston, thats too bad | 04:06 |
| krtaylor | it would have been good to catch up | 04:06 |
| sweston | krtaylor: I know, was looking forward to seeing everyone | 04:07 |
| krtaylor | well, the topics are still open | 04:07 |
| krtaylor | I expect to finalize them this week and get the session proposed | 04:07 |
| krtaylor | I am still waiting on the cross-project track etherpad | 04:08 |
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| krtaylor | but it is going to be an odsreg instance instead | 04:09 |
| krtaylor | regardless, I hope that opens up soon so we can get in for consideration | 04:09 |
| krtaylor | most other groups have already listed their session proposals | 04:10 |
| krtaylor | so, that was it for me tonight | 04:10 |
| krtaylor | sweston, did you want to discuss the monitoring dashboard spec? | 04:10 |
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| sweston | krtaylor: I have not had any progress on this, unfortunately | 04:11 |
| sweston | hopefully, will have some time to update the spec this week | 04:11 |
| krtaylor | I think it is really close | 04:11 |
| sweston | yup | 04:11 |
| krtaylor | I guess we could talk to jhesketh and see if he would change his vote | 04:12 |
| krtaylor | else, yeah, a revision is in order | 04:12 |
| sweston | it might just be easiest to address his comments | 04:13 |
| krtaylor | yeah, its not major | 04:13 |
| sweston | ok, I will just knock it out tonight, then | 04:14 |
| krtaylor | great! | 04:14 |
| krtaylor | I'll be happy to review it in the morning | 04:14 |
| sweston | awesome, thanks, krtaylor | 04:15 |
| krtaylor | sure, np | 04:15 |
| krtaylor | on other topics, I was hoping to have the stackforge proposal done, but work has been really busy | 04:15 |
| krtaylor | I'm sure you can relate :) | 04:15 |
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| sweston | nooooooo ;-) | 04:15 |
| krtaylor | hehheh | 04:16 |
| krtaylor | patrickeast, did you have anything to discuss? | 04:16 |
| patrickeast | nah, not much from much today | 04:16 |
| krtaylor | well, looks like this will be a quick one | 04:17 |
| krtaylor | I'll hang here for a little while longer in case someone pops up, but you all can go on with your evening | 04:18 |
| krtaylor | thanks for coming! | 04:18 |
| sweston | great, thanks krtaylor !! | 04:18 |
| patrickeast | thanks | 04:18 |
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| krtaylor | last call for third party CI working group discussion | 04:30 |
| krtaylor | ok, that's all folks | 04:31 |
| krtaylor | #endmeeting | 04:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings" | 04:31 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Apr 8 04:31:27 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 04:31 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-04-08-04.00.html | 04:31 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-04-08-04.00.txt | 04:31 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/third_party/2015/third_party.2015-04-08-04.00.log.html | 04:31 |
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| rlpple | is there were the operators meeting is?? | 17:25 |
| rockyg | I've been here since top of hour and you're the first person to post | 17:28 |
| rlpple | so it is the right channel but nothing happening need to go read the list then... | 17:28 |
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| rockyg | ripple: yup | 17:34 |
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| Rockyg | o/ | 20:00 |
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| Rockyg | #startmeeting log-wg | 20:04 |
| Rockyg | Anyone else here for the meeting? | 20:04 |
| ekudryashova | I'm here, hi! | 20:04 |
| bknudson | yes. | 20:04 |
| Nikolay_St | o/ | 20:04 |
| Rockyg | great! I titled the meegint wrong. Gotta end and restart.... | 20:04 |
| Rockyg | #endmeeting | 20:04 |
| Rockyg | #startmeeting log_wg | 20:04 |
| bknudson | hi | 20:04 |
| jokke_ | o/ | 20:04 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Apr 8 20:04:34 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is Rockyg. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:04 |
| Rockyg | And, it's not starting anyway. Grumble | 20:04 |
| Nikolay_St | hh | 20:04 |
| Rockyg | #startmeeting log_wg | 20:04 |
| Rockyg | ?? | 20:04 |
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| bknudson | somebody posted on -infra that meet bot wasn't working. | 20:04 |
| Rockyg | Oh. Thanks bknudson | 20:04 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:04 |
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| Rockyg | Well, first things first. I've finally got git working on my laptop and should be able to post the error code spec today (fingers crossed) | 20:04 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: log-wg)" | 20:04 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'log_wg' | 20:04 |
| jokke_ | Rockyg: yeah never got the e-mail | 20:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:04 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Apr 8 20:04:35 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:04 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/log_wg/2015/log_wg.2015-04-08-20.04.html | 20:05 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/log_wg/2015/log_wg.2015-04-08-20.04.txt | 20:05 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/log_wg/2015/log_wg.2015-04-08-20.04.log.html | 20:05 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Apr 8 20:04:35 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is Rockyg. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:05 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: log_wg)" | 20:05 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'log_wg' | 20:05 |
| openstack | Rockyg: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress. Use #endmeeting first. | 20:05 |
| Rockyg | A number of folks have gotten a rough draft of it. I'll send to anyone who wants a copy | 20:05 |
| Nikolay_St | Rockyg: send one to me :) | 20:05 |
| Rockyg | Do I have your email? | 20:05 |
| ekudryashova | To me too, please | 20:05 |
| Rockyg | I thought I sent to jokke_ and ekudryashova already. | 20:06 |
| jokke_ | Rockyg: oh, darn ... yeah might be ... just PMing you | 20:06 |
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| jokke_ | haven't been reading my personal mail box for few days | 20:06 |
| Rockyg | anyway, I think it will dovetail with some discussion with the API proposal | 20:07 |
| Nikolay_St | Rockyg: here it is nstarodubtsev dog mirantis.com | 20:07 |
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| Rockyg | Great. Will send that out, shortly. Any comments before I manage to get it into gerrit are very welcome. | 20:08 |
| Rockyg | gimme a sec to get that out. And while I'm doing that, please rereview the api spec: #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/167793/ | 20:09 |
| Rockyg | OK. Can't go out until I'm back on my corporate net, though -- have to go to the guest net to get to IRC :P | 20:12 |
| jokke_ | no worries :D | 20:12 |
| Rockyg | #topic API error code spec | 20:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "API error code spec (Meeting topic: log_wg)" | 20:12 | |
| jokke_ | send it out after | 20:12 |
| Rockyg | Any thoughts? | 20:12 |
| bknudson | Rockyg: were you planning to change the spec based on the current comments? | 20:12 |
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| jokke_ | I don't like it but I seem to be pretty much the only one | 20:13 |
| bknudson | don't like what? | 20:13 |
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| Rockyg | I was gonna present our spec, which has proj-component-number with database including description. The spec I am suggesting would let API set the middle value and follow the API spec for most of it. | 20:14 |
| jokke_ | the json dump on the api error proposal | 20:14 |
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| bknudson | jokke_: what would you prefer for an error response? | 20:14 |
| Rockyg | Yeah, I will be posting about some of it, too. Actually, a lot of folks don't like the json. And if we get Ops people reviewing, then they will chime in with us. | 20:15 |
| bknudson | XML? | 20:15 |
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| Rockyg | So, there are two thing in error response. What goes into code and what goes into log. Log should not be json. code should be json | 20:16 |
| jokke_ | bknudson: I prefer error message, not hundreds of lines of json about every error that might have occured | 20:16 |
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| bknudson | I expect it will usually be a single error. | 20:16 |
| bknudson | is the error message translated? | 20:17 |
| ekudryashova | bkhudson: Yes | 20:18 |
| jokke_ | I seriously think that logs are the place for that level of details. The client needs to know that a) something went wrong, b) what was it (hopefully on user errors blunt enough to fix it) c) some searchable identifier that can be used to google / contact support if one does not understand what went wrong | 20:18 |
| Rockyg | So, with the DB of error codes and general description, it makes general description easily translatable. Body of error would have instance and other stuff that might be less translatable | 20:18 |
| bknudson | if the response has a request ID and you can find the log message for that request ID then that seems adequate. | 20:19 |
| bknudson | but the JSON error document doesn't seem like overkill to me... sure seems to have extra fields, though. | 20:19 |
| jokke_ | that's again one of those things that lots of our big ops are not comfy to have that level of details in logs and now we're planning to return such with exception | 20:20 |
| bknudson | e.g., status is redundant, and only one of id or code should be needed. | 20:20 |
| Rockyg | Speaking of request ids, there is also a review open in cross project on that #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/156508/ | 20:20 |
| bknudson | then all you have is id, title, description, and href, which seems like the right amount of info | 20:21 |
| bknudson | where title and description are translated. | 20:21 |
| Rockyg | I think there are a number of issues being conflated in these discussions: Log messages vs errors, log message headers vs bodies, error codes vs errors, etc | 20:21 |
| bknudson | oh, I thought we were talking about the error response | 20:22 |
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| jokke_ | so did I | 20:22 |
| Rockyg | Ah. There's the rub. Error response != log message | 20:22 |
| jokke_ | correct | 20:22 |
| jokke_ | but the error response spec was the one you asked thoughts for ;) | 20:23 |
| Rockyg | Error response should be machine to machine. But it often needs to propagate out to log | 20:23 |
| bknudson | if it's machine to machine then translation isn't going to help | 20:24 |
| jokke_ | as long as it's machine2machine only thing that needs to be sent over is the error code | 20:24 |
| Rockyg | bknudson: true, but some of the information propagated through to the log will need the translation | 20:24 |
| bknudson | I thought the error response was going to the user... e.g., if I nova boot and it fails this would tell me what I did wrong. | 20:25 |
| Rockyg | jokke_: error code plus payload -- instance info, request id, etc | 20:25 |
| jokke_ | bknudson: that's what I was expecting as well | 20:25 |
| bknudson | and would hopefully tell me what to do to fix it. | 20:25 |
| jokke_ | IMO that is really just for the user | 20:26 |
| Rockyg | Both: right, but it's API info, so it's aimed at developer (at least this spec) rather than end user | 20:26 |
| jokke_ | but even then it wouldn't need title and description, we could just stick with the message | 20:26 |
| bknudson | is description the message? what's the difference? | 20:27 |
| jokke_ | but yeah I do dislike tons of json and bundling multiple errors into single response | 20:27 |
| Rockyg | Message is the payload. It is the descriptive string with instance specifics included | 20:27 |
| jokke_ | bknudson: why it needs topic ... the message should be what you need ... At least I don't want to read a novel encapsulated into json if I have typo in my passowrd | 20:28 |
| Rockyg | I think now you guys are getting why I think there is lots of confusion around this and log stuff | 20:28 |
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| jokke_ | Rockyg: I do agree ... because next thing is that pprojects starts dump that json into logfiles | 20:29 |
| bknudson | the CLI can render the error response any way it wants to... we can say it's just going to render the description of the first error. | 20:29 |
| Rockyg | Perhaps we can invite the API WG to one of our IRC meetings, or we get on their agenda to further discuss this? | 20:32 |
| bknudson | if we want a log guideline then we should say that nobody wants JSON dumps in their logs. | 20:32 |
| jokke_ | bknudson: so what's the benefit of having all that json there wasting resources to be processed to the state where we are now, sending a single string message of what happened? | 20:32 |
| jokke_ | bknudson: +++ | 20:32 |
| Rockyg | bknudson: ++ | 20:32 |
| jokke_ | well I think we should take this to the spec review or mailing list, we probably had something else on the meeting agenda as well | 20:33 |
| Rockyg | I think we are getting closer to udnerstanding that we need to get a glossary of definitions to get everyone on the same page | 20:34 |
| Nikolay_St | jokke_: + | 20:34 |
| jokke_ | or at least I'd like to hear if there is any progress to score us a summit corner with table somewhere | 20:34 |
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| Rockyg | Let's take it to the mailing list once the error code spec for logging is out. I can email most of you. I don't have bknudson's email, but can likely get it from launchpad. | 20:35 |
| jokke_ | :) | 20:35 |
| jokke_ | Rockyg: ++ | 20:35 |
| bknudson | Rockyg: don't worry about emailing me... get it in gerrit and I can look at it there. | 20:35 |
| Rockyg | And, we can attend an APIwg meeting to further discuss | 20:36 |
| jokke_ | sounds like a plan | 20:36 |
| Rockyg | OK. Trying for today. I *think* i've got everything I need setup to make it happen. also, I'm putting it out with work still to be done, but the meat is there. | 20:36 |
| Rockyg | #topic request IDs | 20:37 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "request IDs (Meeting topic: log_wg)" | 20:37 | |
| Rockyg | I'd like for folks to go over the #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/156508/ and see what they think. | 20:38 |
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| Rockyg | I would like to point out that the syslog RFC has lots of room for info both in headers and in payloads, and is flexible with intermediate systems passing log messages through, so we need to think about where the ids belong in a log message | 20:39 |
| jokke_ | ok, so that's out there now | 20:39 |
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| Rockyg | jokke_: ?? is out there? | 20:40 |
| bknudson | wow... this is proposing change the responses from ... JSON to a tuple? | 20:42 |
| jokke_ | Rockyg: that spec on OS-specs finally | 20:42 |
| Rockyg | Ah. Yeah. and it needs lots of comments. and some visibility. | 20:43 |
| Rockyg | Needs lots of work, I think. | 20:43 |
| bknudson | there seems to be concerns about clients sending requests with the same request ID. | 20:43 |
| bknudson | seems like if a client wants to screw itself then let them do it. | 20:44 |
| Rockyg | <snicker> | 20:44 |
| Rockyg | So, I believe that this proposal needs some people with a broader working understanding of projects and clients to help make the concept work. | 20:45 |
| Rockyg | It's possible/likely that the approach gets tossed, but the concept is implemented differently. | 20:46 |
| Rockyg | Perhaps just making the API WG aware of this and let them comment would be a good first step? | 20:47 |
| Rockyg | Any further comments? otherwise moving on... | 20:50 |
| Rockyg | #topic summit | 20:50 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "summit (Meeting topic: log_wg)" | 20:50 | |
| Rockyg | I've suggested a general Ops session for log stuff. What happened in Kilo, what to focus on in Liberty, etc. | 20:51 |
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| Rockyg | I'd also like to propose one for cross projects. Will do that ASAP | 20:51 |
| Rockyg | I'd also like to have a working session or two at the summit. The group seems small enough it could be adhoc | 20:53 |
| jokke_ | sounds good to me | 20:53 |
| bknudson | sounds good to me too | 20:53 |
| Rockyg | Also, should we look for a meeting time earlier than the current one? I know this is late for most of you | 20:54 |
| Nikolay_St | and for me :) Sahara guys promise that they'll try to attend at least 1 meeting :) | 20:54 |
| Nikolay_St | Rockyg: 1 hour earlier will be fine for me | 20:54 |
| ekudryashova | +1 for earlier meeting | 20:55 |
| Rockyg | Anyone here besides me and jokke_ going to be at the summit? | 20:56 |
| bknudson | I plan to be at the summit... hasn't been totally confirmed yet. | 20:56 |
| Rockyg | Cool. For those not at the summit, if you want us focus on getting anything specific done/people talked to/recruited/etc. We'll have a topi in next weeks meeting to get your list of desires/needs | 20:57 |
| jokke_ | cool | 20:58 |
| Rockyg | I think we are pretty much at the end here. Let's make some stuff happen this week. and I'll call this baked;-) | 20:59 |
| Rockyg | #endmeeting | 20:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Apr 8 20:59:40 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/log_wg/2015/log_wg.2015-04-08-20.04.html | 20:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/log_wg/2015/log_wg.2015-04-08-20.04.txt | 20:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/log_wg/2015/log_wg.2015-04-08-20.04.log.html | 20:59 |
| Nikolay_St | bye,all | 20:59 |
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| Rockyg | Thanks everyone! | 21:00 |
| jokke_ | thanks | 21:00 |
| ekudryashova | bye, thanks | 21:01 |
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