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| prometheanfire | dims: dirk tonyb toabctl | 11:58 |
|---|---|---|
| toabctl | hi | 11:59 |
| dims | o/ | 11:59 |
| dirk | o/ | 11:59 |
| * dirk is only lurking | 11:59 | |
| prometheanfire | #startmeeting requirements | 11:59 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Aug 30 11:59:36 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is prometheanfire. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 11:59 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 11:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: requirements)" | 11:59 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'requirements' | 11:59 |
| prometheanfire | #topic rollcall | 11:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "rollcall (Meeting topic: requirements)" | 11:59 | |
| coolsvap | o/ | 11:59 |
| prometheanfire | coolsvap: yo | 12:00 |
| coolsvap | prometheanfire: hi | 12:00 |
| prometheanfire | dims: dirk toabctl mind saying hi again :D | 12:01 |
| dims | o/ | 12:01 |
| dims | hi | 12:01 |
| dirk | hi | 12:01 |
| toabctl | :) | 12:01 |
| prometheanfire | cool | 12:01 |
| prometheanfire | #topic anything from the queue? | 12:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "anything from the queue? (Meeting topic: requirements)" | 12:01 | |
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| prometheanfire | no? | 12:02 |
| prometheanfire | good :D | 12:02 |
| prometheanfire | #topic more ptg planning | 12:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "more ptg planning (Meeting topic: requirements)" | 12:02 | |
| prometheanfire | don't know if others want to do a team photo, but if so we should get a time down | 12:03 |
| prometheanfire | #link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18DmI9ydq6dKr4hAcoAN83vYXWn8TV1NEvy09Ll02_Y0/edit#gid=0 | 12:03 |
| prometheanfire | Here is the current queens requirements itenerary | 12:04 |
| prometheanfire | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/queens-PTG-requirements | 12:04 |
| prometheanfire | anyone have anything related to the ptg they want to say/ask about? | 12:04 |
| coolsvap | how many sessions do we have ? do you have the link handy? | 12:06 |
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| coolsvap | got it | 12:07 |
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| prometheanfire | we are sharing the infra room but seem to have our own 'track' here https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/PTG/Queens/Etherpads | 12:07 |
| prometheanfire | monday/tuesday | 12:07 |
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| prometheanfire | #topic freeze status | 12:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "freeze status (Meeting topic: requirements)" | 12:09 | |
| prometheanfire | we unfroze fully, seems to have gone well | 12:09 |
| prometheanfire | #topic open discussion | 12:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: requirements)" | 12:09 | |
| prometheanfire | if no one says anything for a min or two I'll close this | 12:10 |
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| dims | no updates from me prometheanfire | 12:10 |
| * coolsvap too | 12:10 | |
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| prometheanfire | wfm | 12:11 |
| prometheanfire | #endmeeting | 12:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 12:11 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Aug 30 12:11:19 2017 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 12:11 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/requirements/2017/requirements.2017-08-30-11.59.html | 12:11 |
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| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/requirements/2017/requirements.2017-08-30-11.59.txt | 12:11 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/requirements/2017/requirements.2017-08-30-11.59.log.html | 12:11 |
| * prometheanfire goes back to bed | 12:11 | |
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| *** barjavel.freenode.net changes topic to "more ptg planning (Meeting topic: requirements)" | 12:22 | |
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| seanhandley | hi zhipeng tobberydberg o/ | 13:58 |
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| tobberydberg | hi o/ | 13:58 |
| seanhandley | Oops - I killed Howard's connection by saying hello :D | 13:58 |
| seanhandley | I see a few other familiar usernames here too | 13:58 |
| seanhandley | Are you joining us for the meeting annabelleB ? | 13:59 |
| annabelleB | Yup! Just getting settled here | 13:59 |
| seanhandley | Awesome :-) | 13:59 |
| seanhandley | Ok, time to get started then | 14:00 |
| seanhandley | #startmeeting publiccloud-wg | 14:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Aug 30 14:00:49 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is seanhandley. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: publiccloud-wg)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'publiccloud_wg' | 14:00 |
| seanhandley | Can folks please add their names to the participants on the Etherpad: | 14:01 |
| seanhandley | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/publiccloud-wg | 14:01 |
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| seanhandley | Hopefully Howard will be back shortly | 14:02 |
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| seanhandley | Are you joining us adriant ? | 14:02 |
| tobberydberg | Is it vacation time? | 14:02 |
| seanhandley | Yeah, I guess school Summer holidays for most people in August | 14:03 |
| seanhandley | #topic Review Action Points | 14:03 |
| tobberydberg | ok ok | 14:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Review Action Points (Meeting topic: publiccloud-wg)" | 14:03 | |
| seanhandley | So there were no APs last meeting but some from before that still need attention | 14:04 |
| hogepodge | o/ | 14:04 |
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| seanhandley | hi Chris o/ | 14:04 |
| tobberydberg | welcome! | 14:04 |
| seanhandley | Glad you could join us :) | 14:04 |
| seanhandley | Etherpad is here: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/publiccloud-wg | 14:04 |
| hogepodge | Thank you! | 14:05 |
| lsell | Sorry I'm late...also joining from the Foundation staff team with Chris and Anne | 14:05 |
| seanhandley | no worries - happy to have you all here with us :) | 14:05 |
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| seanhandley | One previous AP that I need to work on is an initial spec for how the passport tokens might work, but given recent discussion we should probably save that for the time being | 14:06 |
| seanhandley | So I think we should move straight on to point 2 | 14:06 |
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| seanhandley | #topic Passport Scheme | 14:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Passport Scheme (Meeting topic: publiccloud-wg)" | 14:06 | |
| tobberydberg | agree | 14:06 |
| seanhandley | So, welcome annabelleB hogepodge and lsell | 14:07 |
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| seanhandley | I'm going to be proxying Flanders a little here, since it's so late at night in Australia | 14:07 |
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| seanhandley | I'll dig out the slides he shared via email | 14:07 |
| pilgrimstack | o/ | 14:07 |
| seanhandley | #link https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Y2_TiSjElnPdNvVtIsco2_PVTtfKdZDMtvL5mmW6E7A/edit#slide=id.g1fc89766ca_0_2 | 14:08 |
| tobberydberg | nice to have you here pilgrimstack =) | 14:08 |
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| seanhandley | hey zhipeng o/ | 14:08 |
| tobberydberg | Please put your name at the etherpad | 14:08 |
| zhipeng | hey seanhandley o/ | 14:08 |
| seanhandley | You too lsell and pilgrimstack ^ | 14:09 |
| seanhandley | Has everyone seen the slides that Flanders put together about the passport scheme ? | 14:09 |
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| yankcrime | o/ | 14:09 |
| seanhandley | hey yankcrime o/ | 14:10 |
| tobberydberg | yes, have seen that =) | 14:10 |
| yankcrime | hi! | 14:10 |
| seanhandley | So | 14:10 |
| seanhandley | the goal is to launch the initial simple version of this scheme at Sydney | 14:11 |
| seanhandley | This will take the form of a page at openstack.org/passport | 14:11 |
| seanhandley | which will list participating public clouds | 14:11 |
| seanhandley | the listing will hook up to those cloud's freemium account pages | 14:11 |
| seanhandley | and we'll have some rough guidelines for the content of those pages themselves to keep it all consistent and sane | 14:12 |
| zhipeng | sounds about that | 14:12 |
| pilgrimstack | sounds good to me | 14:13 |
| lsell | I'm definitely on board with this approach, because from Foundation perspective, we want to put a spotlight on OpenStack public clouds, and this gives us a tangible program to promote | 14:13 |
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| lsell | It will also help us gauge interest to see how we want to carry the program forward | 14:13 |
| seanhandley | indeed | 14:14 |
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| seanhandley | One thing I'll add to the etherpad is we want some analytics data from those freemium account pages | 14:14 |
| seanhandley | and that needs to be fed back to the foundation | 14:14 |
| seanhandley | So how will that be achieved technically? Does the Foundation have a set of scripts it wants public clouds to drop into their pages? | 14:14 |
| annabelleB | That’s one why to do it, but that can get a bit messy when we’ve tried that in the past. I might propose that we get the PCs to send us a weekly report? Pros and cons to both approaches, but the later requires them to stay active with us? | 14:16 |
| hogepodge | It's not to say the federated billing isn't important or a goal, it just puts the program front in center in a way that encourages early participation. | 14:16 |
| lsell | That's a good question. I was originally thinking we might track it like we track the outbound links in our commercial marketplace, which would basically give us visibility into how people are going from the o.o/passport landing page out to the providers | 14:16 |
| annabelleB | Yes, we can see the exits on our side, we just can’t see any further behavior once they’re on the landing page | 14:16 |
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| lsell | It would also be nice to get data back from providers, weekly might be a bit of a high bar, but regularly would be nice :) | 14:16 |
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| seanhandley | ok, that makes sense | 14:17 |
| zhipeng | the bottom line is that this analytics won't create security holes in participating PCs | 14:17 |
| zhipeng | or legal ones | 14:17 |
| seanhandley | so analytics on openstack.org for the outbound links | 14:17 |
| lsell | I also want to make sure that asking providers to launch a new landing page is feasible if they have existing freemium offerings they want to promote via the program. Asking them to launch a new landing page with tracking in two months might be a hurdle, but y'all would probably know best | 14:18 |
| tobberydberg | With the way we thought the scheme to work we will get some initial feedback at which cloud the code is registered... | 14:18 |
| seanhandley | then the expectation is for the public clouds to engage with the foundation re: signups | 14:18 |
| seanhandley | it'll be easier to track when we introduce a technical solution with codes | 14:18 |
| pilgrimstack | analytics is too far away from the first goal I think, let's keep that for steps 3 or 4 I think | 14:19 |
| seanhandley | because those codes will be redeemed via a service the foundation is in control of | 14:19 |
| seanhandley | but for now, it has to be more of a manual sharing of info between PCs and the foundation itself | 14:19 |
| seanhandley | I think the Foundation wants to see interest pilgrimstack | 14:19 |
| seanhandley | so it's clear if the passport scheme is viable | 14:19 |
| seanhandley | is that correct folks? | 14:20 |
| pilgrimstack | seanhandley: Yep, The first proposal from lsell should be enought to start | 14:20 |
| zhipeng | agree | 14:20 |
| seanhandley | ok | 14:20 |
| seanhandley | let's move on then | 14:20 |
| zhipeng | let's start with bare minimum and build upon that | 14:20 |
| tobberydberg | +1 | 14:20 |
| pilgrimstack | +1 | 14:20 |
| seanhandley | lsell: Regarding making these public clouds create new freemium pages on their domains | 14:21 |
| rmart04 | +1 | 14:21 |
| pilgrimstack | so what this landing page should do ? | 14:21 |
| seanhandley | Great question pilgrimstack | 14:22 |
| tobberydberg | Regarding that, last meeting we had a call for PCs to signup to commit to do that before Sydney | 14:22 |
| lsell | Ah ok, that's good to know | 14:22 |
| tobberydberg | Also, what it should consist of | 14:22 |
| pilgrimstack | register a new account and create a openstack tenant ? | 14:22 |
| seanhandley | I can see the value in having a specific freemium page that mentions the scheme | 14:22 |
| pilgrimstack | + Provisionning credit of course | 14:22 |
| tobberydberg | look a little bit further down at the ether.. | 14:22 |
| seanhandley | it reinforces the customer UX | 14:22 |
| lsell | I can definitely see the value...I was just worried because if I went to my web team right now with a new project that needed to be launched before Sydney they might shoot me :) | 14:22 |
| lsell | That said..this passport program page is in the queue, so no worries :) | 14:23 |
| seanhandley | hehe, well that's good then :) | 14:23 |
| seanhandley | Regarding openstack.org/passport - are we willing to launch it without any public clouds on it and a "Coming Soon" sort of message? | 14:24 |
| zhipeng | i think for start we could just provide a summary of the participating PC's current promo schems at the moment | 14:24 |
| zhipeng | of course those are related to Open Passport | 14:24 |
| seanhandley | or do we only want it world visible once we have agreed participation from a number of clouds? | 14:24 |
| zhipeng | we could indicate that by Vancouver we want to have a single entrance | 14:24 |
| zhipeng | and federate billing | 14:24 |
| lsell | I would suggest we wait and launch it once we have it set up, and not make promises for the future until we start making progress in that direction... | 14:25 |
| seanhandley | Ok | 14:25 |
| seanhandley | So one thing we should discuss is what the guidelines for the freemium pages should be | 14:26 |
| lsell | Just logistically, we're probably not going to be able to focus on building out a page until we get through the PTG, but I also think it's something we can really "launch" at Sydney if that makes sense...work with all of the participating companies to put together a press release, promote, advertise, etc. | 14:26 |
| seanhandley | I guess the Freemium page should have consistent branding at least - maybe even an OpenStack-Powered style image somewhere | 14:27 |
| zhipeng | yes agree | 14:27 |
| lsell | Yes, that would be nice | 14:27 |
| rmart04 | sounds good | 14:28 |
| seanhandley | "OpenStack Passport Partner" or something :) | 14:28 |
| seanhandley | We're not going to get very far by making stipulations about how their freemium accounts should work at this stage | 14:29 |
| seanhandley | because they'll all be slightly different | 14:29 |
| tobberydberg | +1 | 14:29 |
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| pilgrimstack | +1 | 14:29 |
| seanhandley | so I don't know what other guidelines to enforce for those freemium pages, really. | 14:30 |
| seanhandley | Any ideas? | 14:30 |
| lsell | Well, I am curious how much you think the sign up process/requirements differ among each provider...our team has signed up for a couple of different trial programs, and some seem super easy while others are a bit more cumbersome. | 14:30 |
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| pilgrimstack | This should include the quickest steps to register an account and start with a tenant with some creadit | 14:31 |
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| tobberydberg | Should we really interfere with how each cloud would like to design the signup process? | 14:31 |
| zhipeng | at the first stage the signup should be something like an intent of participation, should be enough | 14:31 |
| zhipeng | when we work out the federated system, then we could actually enforce freemium setups and so forth | 14:31 |
| zhipeng | pilgrimstack yes that makes sense | 14:31 |
| zhipeng | so for guideline, at the moment may each PC should have a dedicated promo page for open passport | 14:31 |
| zhipeng | and have the logo on the web page | 14:32 |
| lsell | I don't think we can interfere, but I do want to make sure we're promoting good experiences | 14:32 |
| pilgrimstack | @OVH this means creating an OVH account, ordering a public cloud project (the tenant) and inject the credit | 14:32 |
| zhipeng | signup left to each provider at the moment | 14:32 |
| tobberydberg | ok lsell agree with that | 14:32 |
| seanhandley | I guess this page could at least give simple instructions for how to sign up | 14:33 |
| seanhandley | and then a button to click to begin that process | 14:33 |
| tobberydberg | Yes, bare minimum | 14:33 |
| seanhandley | then longer term we can make expectations for signup flow | 14:33 |
| pilgrimstack | seanhandley: as a very first step I think it's easy for everybody | 14:33 |
| zhipeng | or each PC have a button so after clicking it goes to the specific program ? | 14:33 |
| seanhandley | ok - so the freemium page just gives clear instructions - it doesn't change any established UX | 14:34 |
| lsell | +1 | 14:34 |
| tobberydberg | +1 | 14:34 |
| seanhandley | Simple enough! | 14:34 |
| lsell | we can just distribute a logo/graphic and some language to use on each landing page | 14:34 |
| zhipeng | lsell +1 | 14:34 |
| rmart04 | +1 (I’d expect providers are already trying to streamline their setup processes as best they can!) | 14:34 |
| seanhandley | Perfect lsell | 14:34 |
| seanhandley | +1 | 14:35 |
| lsell | agree about not having requirements for sign up process, but i think this team does need some criteria or grounds to reject a provider if it's just a terrible experience.... | 14:35 |
| annabelleB | +1 | 14:35 |
| tobberydberg | +1 | 14:35 |
| seanhandley | +1 | 14:35 |
| hogepodge | +1 | 14:35 |
| seanhandley | Do we have a metric for how terrible the UX is? | 14:36 |
| seanhandley | Or will this be a value judgement? | 14:36 |
| zhipeng | no dedicated open passport landing page ? | 14:36 |
| zhipeng | if a provider just randomly point it to something | 14:36 |
| zhipeng | then it should get rejected | 14:36 |
| lsell | so as we're reaching out to our public cloud provider database, we can say "here's how you participate, but please note we'll be testing your program to ensure it meets quality..." (something better worded than that) | 14:36 |
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| seanhandley | Ok, that needs defining | 14:37 |
| annabelleB | I don’t think they need to have a dedicated passport page, but they need to have a clear “Sign up for a free trial here” page | 14:37 |
| seanhandley | and it's clear someone will need to act as a gateway for who we accept and who we don't accept | 14:37 |
| zhipeng | i'm thinking David ? :P | 14:37 |
| hogepodge | I would suggest a Foundation staff member along with one or two members of this working group, to make sure it's community driven. | 14:38 |
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| seanhandley | Ok. I'm happy to help, as I'm sure are my co-chairs zhipeng and tobberydberg :) | 14:39 |
| lsell | Agree, Foundation can be neutral because you don't want it to turn into a political or competitive thing, but we definitely need this team to weigh in and help make a judgment call | 14:39 |
| rmart04 | I’d hope that if PC’s are spending the time to get involved in this process they aren’t going to be sending people in circles once they try to signup but agree that it should be well defined… | 14:39 |
| tobberydberg | Some page that meets the requirements for a good UX, mentioning something like "OpenStack Passport Partner" or logo etc | 14:39 |
| seanhandley | We're nearly 40 mins in so let's think of some action items :) | 14:39 |
| seanhandley | lsell hogepodge annabelleB: How were you thinking we'd reach out to people about the scheme? | 14:40 |
| seanhandley | Email? | 14:40 |
| seanhandley | when I say people, I mean public clouds | 14:41 |
| tobberydberg | I believe that most important is to get some basics up describing what we are saying here, so that it's clear for all whats the latest | 14:41 |
| zhipeng | ++ | 14:41 |
| tobberydberg | seanhandley: of course happy help out there as well | 14:41 |
| zhipeng | a mission statement paragraph on PCWG wiki ? | 14:42 |
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| tobberydberg | ...and with getting that first version up... | 14:42 |
| lsell | Danny Carreno on Foundation team has a database of all the public cloud providers we have relationships with (as foundation sponsors, in the marketplace, etc.). I think we should basically draft an email in an etherpad that he can send to all of the providers to start recruiting. We just need to figure out the immediate call to action and deadline for them to participate | 14:43 |
| tobberydberg | +1 | 14:43 |
| seanhandley | +1 | 14:43 |
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| tobberydberg | And, a good desciption of what they are supposed to signup for =) | 14:44 |
| rmart04 | +1 | 14:44 |
| lsell | I believe there are about 25 providers, and I would be very happy if we even just had 4-5 on board for launch...but it's a good practice to give everyone a heads up. I have a feeling there are some public cloud folks who don't even know about this working group | 14:44 |
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| yankcrime | is the foundation's long-term expectation that customers would continue to buy credit via the passport scheme to use with participating public cloud providers? | 14:44 |
| hogepodge | Would announcing a cfp on a mailing list be a good way to make sure that everyone has a chance to hear? | 14:45 |
| lsell | Not necessarily, no | 14:45 |
| pilgrimstack | when we deal OVH vouchers, we have 2 kind of vouchers. 1. No Credit Card required but we delete the ressource at the end, 2. Credit Card required and the user can keep his ressources after the credit expiration | 14:45 |
| tobberydberg | AP: seanhandley zhipeng and myself to have that description up by next meeting ?? | 14:45 |
| seanhandley | #action Draft an email inviting a public cloud to participate in the scheme https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/passport-scheme-email-draft | 14:45 |
| lsell | (my no was for yankcrime) | 14:45 |
| seanhandley | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/passport-scheme-email-draft | 14:45 |
| lsell | +1 mailing list | 14:45 |
| seanhandley | tobberydberg: sounds good :) | 14:46 |
| yankcrime | thanks lsell | 14:46 |
| pilgrimstack | do you also have this both kind of vouchers? | 14:46 |
| zhipeng | let's draft the email first, then hit ml and individual PCs at the same time | 14:46 |
| tobberydberg | #action seanhandley zhipeng and myself to have description of passport up by next meeting | 14:46 |
| seanhandley | +1 zhipeng | 14:46 |
| seanhandley | I'd imagine a lot of the public clouds don't follow the mailing lists very closely | 14:47 |
| seanhandley | or perhaps their tech teams do and their management teams don't | 14:47 |
| yankcrime | for sure they don't, i can think of at least one that will be unaware of this passport work (but which will want to participate) | 14:47 |
| tobberydberg | They don't, and hard to do as well... Think the best way is via lsell and the DB of PCs | 14:48 |
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| lsell | Should our goal be to distribute the email early next week? Monday is a holiday in the US, but we could go Tuesday or Wednesday | 14:48 |
| pilgrimstack | to simplify my question, will you take the credit card of the user before opening the tenant ? because that's a big question for us | 14:48 |
| lsell | that is a good question | 14:48 |
| seanhandley | I don't think it matters pilgrimstack - not at this stage | 14:49 |
| hogepodge | I prefer to not require a credit card, because it's a real barrier to entry. I understand the desire to convert users to paying customers. | 14:49 |
| seanhandley | credit card verification is a reasonable anti fraud measure | 14:49 |
| seanhandley | particularly with free accounts | 14:49 |
| hogepodge | There's that too. | 14:49 |
| zhipeng | i think if we offer promo code, credit card should not be required | 14:49 |
| tobberydberg | Think that will have to be left for each PC | 14:50 |
| seanhandley | hogepodge: You should see how many of our signups drop off at credit card entry stage :D | 14:50 |
| yankcrime | hogepodge: too many bad actors out there to do otherwise | 14:50 |
| * yankcrime nods | 14:50 | |
| zhipeng | and seanhandley do we require SSO with openstack foundation id ? | 14:50 |
| seanhandley | ok back to what you said lsell | 14:50 |
| seanhandley | I think aiming to mail out next week could work just fine | 14:50 |
| seanhandley | I think there'll need to be some collaboration on the etherpad link I shared above | 14:51 |
| seanhandley | and some communication between the foundation and this WG | 14:51 |
| lsell | OK, we'll also try to work on a proposed timeline between now and Sydney in the same etherpad | 14:51 |
| seanhandley | should I contact you regarding the mailout next week lsell ? | 14:51 |
| lsell | Yes, that would be great. I want to get buy in on the email and timeline from this group before we pull the trigger | 14:51 |
| seanhandley | if the text is ready then the Foundation can mail out to its list - then the WG can announce to the mailing lists ? | 14:52 |
| seanhandley | perfect | 14:52 |
| lsell | yes, that sounds great | 14:52 |
| tobberydberg | We don't need a clear description of the "OpenStack Passport" before sending the email? | 14:52 |
| seanhandley | I'll get in touch with you Monday via your foundation address :-) | 14:52 |
| seanhandley | #action Sean to contact Lauren re: mailout text | 14:52 |
| seanhandley | tobberydberg: We definitely do :) | 14:53 |
| yankcrime | tobberydberg i think we do, as well as clear goals / aims | 14:53 |
| seanhandley | tobberydberg: And you're on vacation | 14:53 |
| lsell | tobberydberg ideally this email will be a forcing function to get these descriptions documented | 14:53 |
| tobberydberg | ok....that basically count me out, just so you know, since I'm not back from vacation until Tuesday next week | 14:53 |
| lsell | we can also push it back a week, i'm just cognizant that it's almost September (yikes!) so we basically have two months | 14:53 |
| lsell | how about we plan for the following Monday to distribute emails then? | 14:54 |
| seanhandley | Monday 11th? | 14:54 |
| seanhandley | Sound better tobberydberg ? | 14:54 |
| lsell | Yes. We'll be at the PTG, but it shouldn't be hard to just hit send if we get the content worked out next week | 14:54 |
| tobberydberg | Like that better yes | 14:54 |
| seanhandley | Ok | 14:55 |
| seanhandley | Once again, I've made an etherpad for drafting that: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/passport-scheme-email-draft | 14:55 |
| tobberydberg | we can work out the email in parallel | 14:55 |
| lsell | perfect | 14:55 |
| seanhandley | ok | 14:56 |
| tobberydberg | (of topic ... with everything in the going here ... meeting every week until Sydney? ) | 14:56 |
| seanhandley | we're nearly out of time and I feel like we still have lots to talk about | 14:56 |
| lsell | i'm fine with that, but next week i will be on a plane at this same time, just as a heads up | 14:57 |
| seanhandley | no problem lsell | 14:57 |
| seanhandley | #openstack-publiccloud is probably the best place for this | 14:57 |
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| tobberydberg | +1 | 14:57 |
| seanhandley | and +1 to weekly meetings about it, even if it's just a 10 minute catch up | 14:57 |
| hogepodge | I can make next week (my plane is in the afternoon). | 14:58 |
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| seanhandley | We still need to decide on the agenda for the fishbowl at OpenStack Days UK next month but we can save that for next WG meeting in 2 weeks | 14:58 |
| lsell | oh, and i'll be at openstack days UK! | 14:58 |
| seanhandley | Awesome :D | 14:58 |
| tobberydberg | #action tobberydberg to suggest weekly meetings instead of bi-weekly metings | 14:58 |
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| tobberydberg | Nice to here that lsell =) | 14:59 |
| seanhandley | Ok, we're out of time - there's usually another meeting right after this one | 14:59 |
| lsell | I also just want to say a HUGE thank you to all of you...I really love these ideas, and you've done an amazing job putting it together. I know you have super busy day jobs, and we really appreciate it | 14:59 |
| tobberydberg | Good work seanhandley! | 14:59 |
| seanhandley | I'll be around for a while in #openstack-publiccloud if anyone wants to talk more about this right away | 14:59 |
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| seanhandley | Thanks lsell - I'm really excited about the scheme | 15:00 |
| tobberydberg | I can stay for a couple of minutes | 15:00 |
| seanhandley | and I'm really pleased that the Foundation is getting behind it | 15:00 |
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| seanhandley | thanks again lsell hogepodge and annabelleB for joining us today | 15:00 |
| tobberydberg | Agree with seanhandley! | 15:00 |
| zhipeng | lsell we could take this offline, but quick question on our EU meetup series | 15:00 |
| annabelleB | absolutely! looking forward to working with you all | 15:00 |
| zhipeng | could foundation do a promotion on that ? | 15:00 |
| seanhandley | #endmeeting | 15:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "more ptg planning (Meeting topic: requirements)" | 15:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Aug 30 15:01:00 2017 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/publiccloud_wg/2017/publiccloud_wg.2017-08-30-14.00.html | 15:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/publiccloud_wg/2017/publiccloud_wg.2017-08-30-14.00.txt | 15:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/publiccloud_wg/2017/publiccloud_wg.2017-08-30-14.00.log.html | 15:01 |
| lsell | zhipeng: yes, could you shoot an email to anne@o.o and lauren@o.o ? | 15:01 |
| zhipeng | sure no problem :) | 15:01 |
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| tobberydberg | good initiative zhipeng! | 15:06 |
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| eglute | #startmeeting interopwg | 16:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Aug 30 16:02:29 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is eglute. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: interopwg)" | 16:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'interopwg' | 16:02 |
| Rockyg | o/ | 16:02 |
| eglute | Hello everyone! | 16:02 |
| eglute | #topic agenda | 16:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "agenda (Meeting topic: interopwg)" | 16:02 | |
| kgarloff | Hi | 16:02 |
| eglute | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/InteropVertigo.13 | 16:02 |
| hogepodge | o/ | 16:02 |
| eglute | #chair hogepodge | 16:03 |
| openstack | Current chairs: eglute hogepodge | 16:03 |
| georgk | hi | 16:03 |
| zhipeng | o/ | 16:03 |
| eglute | my IRC client is acting up. in case i dont respond for a while, I will have hogepodge take over | 16:03 |
| mrhillsman | o/ | 16:03 |
| eglute | Everyone, please take a look at the agenda, and update as needed https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/InteropVertigo.13 | 16:03 |
| eglute | #topic PTG | 16:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "PTG (Meeting topic: interopwg)" | 16:04 | |
| eglute | PTG is just around the corner! | 16:04 |
| eglute | If you have not updated yet the etherpad that you will be attending, please do so! | 16:04 |
| hogepodge | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/InteropDenver2017PTG | 16:04 |
| eglute | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/InteropVertigo.13 | 16:04 |
| eglute | err yes on hogepodge link | 16:05 |
| eglute | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/InteropDenver2017PTG | 16:05 |
| eglute | also, please add suggested topics | 16:05 |
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| eglute | any other comments on PTG? | 16:06 |
| hogepodge | Unfortunately catherine and paul can't make it, but we'll try to include them and Rockyg with zoom conferences. | 16:06 |
| Rockyg | Thanks! | 16:07 |
| eglute | hogepodge do you know if there will be cameras in the PTG rooms? | 16:07 |
| eglute | or just on our laptops? | 16:07 |
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| hogepodge | eglute: there won't be. Conference calls are diy for teams. | 16:07 |
| catherineD | o/ | 16:07 |
| eglute | hogepodge cool | 16:07 |
| eglute | i have a zoom account! | 16:07 |
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| hogepodge | I do too. :-D | 16:08 |
| eglute | I added a section for remote participants | 16:08 |
| Rockyg | We've got zoom we can use now, if that helps | 16:08 |
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| eglute | looks like everyone is switching to zoom :D | 16:08 |
| Rockyg | doh! not enough coffee | 16:09 |
| eglute | anything else on PTG? | 16:09 |
| eglute | if you think you will want to attend remote, please update the etherpad | 16:10 |
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| eglute | #topic Flag a test that requires a second set of user credential | 16:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Flag a test that requires a second set of user credential (Meeting topic: interopwg)" | 16:10 | |
| eglute | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/491927/ | 16:10 |
| eglute | i re-read it yesterday, and noticed that i missed a question from catherineD | 16:10 |
| eglute | should the test be removed all together from 2017.09? | 16:11 |
| eglute | i think it should be | 16:11 |
| catherineD | eglute: I can update the patch if that is our decision here | 16:11 |
| eglute | thank you catherineD! what does everyone else think? | 16:11 |
| hogepodge | We would need a test to keep the capability. | 16:12 |
| hogepodge | It's too late for 2018.01. That's the main question. I think listing projects is important. | 16:12 |
| hogepodge | Do we have a volunteer to write a new test? | 16:13 |
| kgarloff | hogepodge: listing projects is important, yes | 16:13 |
| hogepodge | My suggest would be to keep the test flagged for next, just for that reason, so we don't have an empty capability. | 16:13 |
| eglute | hogepodge i think you are right. i didnt notice that it was the only test | 16:13 |
| eglute | hogepodge agree | 16:13 |
| kgarloff | ... until we get a new one ... | 16:14 |
| eglute | agree | 16:14 |
| hogepodge | yes, to be included in 2018.0[8|9] | 16:14 |
| eglute | i will echo hogepodge: any volunteers to write a new test? :) | 16:14 |
| hogepodge | I can suggest a volunteer (mguiney) :-) | 16:15 |
| eglute | +1 :D | 16:15 |
| eglute | #action mguiney to write new test for https://review.openstack.org/#/c/491927/ | 16:15 |
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| eglute | anything else on this? | 16:16 |
| catherineD | eglute: meanwhile we should merge https://review.openstack.org/#/c/491927/ | 16:16 |
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| eglute | yes i agree! | 16:16 |
| eglute | done | 16:16 |
| eglute | #topic Extension programs | 16:17 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Extension programs (Meeting topic: interopwg)" | 16:17 | |
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| eglute | #topic Extension programs Designate | 16:17 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Extension programs Designate (Meeting topic: interopwg)" | 16:17 | |
| eglute | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/492635/ | 16:17 |
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| eglute | Mark has left some comments regarding ipv6 | 16:19 |
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| eglute | but i think otherwise it looks good! | 16:19 |
| eglute | anyone else have comments? | 16:19 |
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| hogepodge | I will send up new patches today for finalization based on the comments. I think we'll be good to present to board if we have consensus next week. | 16:20 |
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| hogepodge | I will incorporate the ipv6 notes into the guideline as a permanent record of that discussion | 16:21 |
| eglute | thank you hogepodge! | 16:22 |
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| eglute | everyone, please leave any last comments if you have them on the patch! | 16:23 |
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| eglute | I would like to have it merged this week! | 16:23 |
| eglute | #Extension programs Heat | 16:25 |
| eglute | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/490648/ | 16:25 |
| eglute | there are some new comments too hogepodge did you see? | 16:25 |
| eglute | but otherwise it is almost ready as well | 16:25 |
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| hogepodge | feedback from everyone on this last patch would be useful, even if just +1 or -1 for details I can fix up | 16:26 |
| eglute | thanks hogepodge looks good to me :) | 16:28 |
| eglute | i will give my +2 later :) | 16:28 |
| eglute | anything else on heat? | 16:28 |
| eglute | #topic Create rough draft of extension programs | 16:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Create rough draft of extension programs (Meeting topic: interopwg)" | 16:29 | |
| eglute | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/472785/ | 16:29 |
| eglute | Mark is attending a conference this week, so he hasnt had a chance to update it | 16:30 |
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| eglute | thank you hogepodge for reviewing | 16:30 |
| eglute | everyone else also please do some final reviews | 16:30 |
| hogepodge | It's well thought out, just missing some aspects we clarified over the last month or so. Thanks to markvoelker for preparing it. | 16:30 |
| eglute | I agree! | 16:31 |
| eglute | anything else? | 16:32 |
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| eglute | #topic open floor | 16:32 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open floor (Meeting topic: interopwg)" | 16:32 | |
| eglute | we are done with all the topics i had on the agenda | 16:32 |
| eglute | anyone have anything they would like to discuss? | 16:32 |
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| eglute | in that case, everyone, please review the patches today | 16:33 |
| hogepodge | Wow, I think this may be our shortest meeting ever. :-D | 16:33 |
| eglute | and we can end early :) | 16:33 |
| eglute | thanks everyone!!! | 16:33 |
| Rockyg | kewl | 16:33 |
| eglute | #endmeeting | 16:34 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "more ptg planning (Meeting topic: requirements)" | 16:34 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Aug 30 16:34:04 2017 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:34 |
| hogepodge | Thanks everyone! | 16:34 |
| Rockyg | thanks! | 16:34 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/interopwg/2017/interopwg.2017-08-30-16.02.html | 16:34 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/interopwg/2017/interopwg.2017-08-30-16.02.txt | 16:34 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/interopwg/2017/interopwg.2017-08-30-16.02.log.html | 16:34 |
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| dansmith | #startmeeting nova_cells | 17:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Aug 30 17:00:00 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is dansmith. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova_cells)" | 17:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'nova_cells' | 17:00 |
| melwitt | o/ | 17:00 |
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| mriedem | o/ | 17:00 |
| dansmith | ohai | 17:00 |
| melwitt | welcome mriedem | 17:01 |
| dansmith | #topic bugs | 17:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "bugs (Meeting topic: nova_cells)" | 17:01 | |
| dansmith | mriedem: you had a couple in the last week or so right? | 17:01 |
| mriedem | there is a backport proposed for the guest assisted snapshot one | 17:01 |
| mriedem | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/498979/ | 17:01 |
| dansmith | cool | 17:01 |
| mriedem | i think that's the only cells v2 bug recently, everything else is placement | 17:01 |
| dansmith | okay cool | 17:02 |
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| dansmith | anything else on bugs? | 17:02 |
| mriedem | do'nt think so | 17:02 |
| dansmith | #topic open reviews | 17:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open reviews (Meeting topic: nova_cells)" | 17:02 | |
| dansmith | I don't have anything for this at the moment either, since I'm working on some placement things we need to get done ASAP | 17:02 |
| mriedem | i don't think there are any open reviews for cells v2 that i know of | 17:03 |
| dansmith | anyone else? | 17:03 |
| dansmith | ack | 17:03 |
| dansmith | #topic open discussion | 17:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: nova_cells)" | 17:03 | |
| dansmith | mriedem: you wanted to scheme about ptg things right? | 17:03 |
| mriedem | yes | 17:03 |
| mriedem | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/nova-ptg-queens | 17:03 |
| mriedem | there are some random things | 17:03 |
| dansmith | I've put a few things on there so far for cells | 17:03 |
| mriedem | the main things i think are | 17:04 |
| mriedem | 1. Use GET /usages from the Placement API for counting quotas rather than iterating cells. | 17:04 |
| mriedem | 2. Scheduling alternative hosts in the cell for retries | 17:04 |
| mriedem | edleafe has a spec related to ^ | 17:04 |
| mriedem | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/498830/ | 17:04 |
| dansmith | yep, I took a first pass on that spec, | 17:04 |
| dansmith | although it's just a piece of the puzzle | 17:05 |
| mriedem | right it's not the full picture | 17:05 |
| mriedem | just the data format i think between conductor and scheduler right? | 17:05 |
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| dansmith | yeah | 17:05 |
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| mriedem | 3. all of the upcall stuff https://docs.openstack.org/nova/latest/user/cellsv2_layout.html#operations-requiring-upcalls | 17:05 |
| mriedem | *all of the "other" upcall stuff | 17:06 |
| dansmith | yeah I need to revisit those things and see what is actionable | 17:06 |
| melwitt | on the GET /usages thing the missing piece will be counting instances independent of cells. and the need to keep instance mappings around forever because deleted instances. I was wondering if it would be kosher to add a deleted column to instance mappings to know whether to count | 17:06 |
| dansmith | the affinity stuff just has to wait for the distance placement stuff | 17:06 |
| dansmith | melwitt: if it's in placement we count it, and if it's not we don't right? | 17:07 |
| mriedem | melwitt: knee jerk reaction is we don't want a deleted column on instance_mappings | 17:07 |
| dansmith | yeah, do not want | 17:07 |
| melwitt | does placement have instances count in it? | 17:07 |
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| mriedem | no, | 17:07 |
| mriedem | i think that means, GET /allocations/{instance_uuid} returns 404 right? | 17:08 |
| dansmith | right | 17:08 |
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| mriedem | and that would also tied into how GET /usages works when filtering on instance.project_id and instance.user_id | 17:08 |
| mriedem | if the instance is deleted, it shouldn't be in the placement allocations table and it's usages won't be affected by the instance consumer | 17:08 |
| melwitt | ohhh, I see what you're saying | 17:08 |
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| dansmith | we should be able to list allocations by project too, so you can get a list of all the instances for a given project/user and that will have consumer ids, which are instances | 17:09 |
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| melwitt | sweet. | 17:09 |
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| melwitt | that works for me | 17:09 |
| mriedem | the counting via placement stuff is all a bit busted right now too with how we're accounting for allocations during a move | 17:09 |
| mriedem | which is going to be fixed with dan's migration uuid stuff | 17:09 |
| dansmith | yah | 17:10 |
| melwitt | oh, right. so we won't get a double count for a move-in-progress | 17:10 |
| melwitt | ? | 17:10 |
| dansmith | well, | 17:10 |
| dansmith | you won't if you consider only instances | 17:10 |
| dansmith | but I think you'll want to consider migrations too so your quota covers things you have in resize_confirm state right? | 17:10 |
| melwitt | maybe, now that it could potentially be consuming twice the resources, I wouldn't want that counting against quota | 17:11 |
| dansmith | no? | 17:11 |
| mriedem | we don't double account quota during a move today | 17:12 |
| dansmith | I thought there was a request to prevent people from having 20 instances, all in resize_confirm state for a month | 17:12 |
| dansmith | right, but that's a bug right? | 17:12 |
| mriedem | we pike the bigger parts of the flavor and count that for quota | 17:12 |
| melwitt | I didn't think so. well, it would be a regression or rather it will change how quota has been counted | 17:12 |
| mriedem | *pick | 17:12 |
| melwitt | because this double allocating thing is new right? | 17:12 |
| mriedem | the double accounting is new | 17:12 |
| dansmith | well, regardless, right now you can't tell the difference between the two halves of a migration, | 17:12 |
| dansmith | and after my change, counting just the instance allocation will give you the target of the migration, which is what you want | 17:12 |
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| dansmith | whether or not we work in the source side is something we can discuss | 17:13 |
| melwitt | okay | 17:13 |
| dansmith | but because of the way I have it set up, it'll just do what you're expecting by default | 17:13 |
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| dansmith | so we can discuss at the ptg maybe and see what others think | 17:13 |
| melwitt | k | 17:14 |
| dansmith | pretty sure I was talking to johnthetubaguy about the migration quota limit thing, so if he's there we can get his input | 17:14 |
| mriedem | i think we'd have to account for the source side | 17:14 |
| mriedem | for an old flavor that has bigger cpu/ram than the new flavor | 17:14 |
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| mriedem | otherwise if you resize, then do something else to raise quota, and revert, you could go over quota on the revert | 17:14 |
| mriedem | but yeah i suppose details can be hashed out at the ptg | 17:15 |
| dansmith | I think that's confusing and not what _I_ would want, but yeah, we can argue later | 17:15 |
| melwitt | yeah. I suspect you're right though. currently we're considering old flavor or new flavor depending on whether it's an upsize or downsize | 17:15 |
| mriedem | for multi-cell ci testing, | 17:16 |
| mriedem | i think in boston sdague said he wanted to write some new deployment tooling using ansible or something since devstack/devstack-gate/grenade gets too complicated with all the bash and multiple nodes and such | 17:17 |
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| mriedem | but, that seems like a herculian task | 17:17 |
| dansmith | yeah I'm not so sure how likely that is to happen at this point | 17:17 |
| dansmith | yeah | 17:17 |
| mriedem | but i think we should definitely try a 2-cell ci job in queens | 17:18 |
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| dansmith | well, I'd like to, but there are a lot of things piling up quickly so I don't want to put it too high on the priority list | 17:18 |
| dansmith | so far, | 17:18 |
| dansmith | I haven't found anything that works with our gate but doesn't with two real cells | 17:18 |
| dansmith | I'm sure there are some, but seems like not too major | 17:19 |
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| dansmith | anyway, worth discussion at the ptg, which is what we're doing here | 17:19 |
| mriedem | yeah it doesn't need to be top priority, but if we can at least figure out some of the high level what needs to happen, i know enough about d-g to do some damage | 17:19 |
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| dansmith | woot | 17:19 |
| mriedem | the efficient listing stuff... | 17:20 |
| mriedem | idk | 17:20 |
| dansmith | I need to sync back up with mdbooth on that, but I'm hoping he's still going to do it.. last I heard from him it sounded like he was, | 17:20 |
| dansmith | but if he's not we have to get a plan for that I think | 17:20 |
| melwitt | I'm willing to pick it up if he can't get to it | 17:21 |
| dansmith | mriedem: what else? | 17:22 |
| mriedem | i see melwitt added consoles | 17:22 |
| melwitt | I'll be continuing the consoles stuff. there's some review on it that I need to address | 17:22 |
| mriedem | re-propose the spec if you haven't already | 17:23 |
| melwitt | yeah, will do that | 17:24 |
| melwitt | I probably need a new spec for swapping the quota count with placement calls too | 17:24 |
| melwitt | do you think? | 17:24 |
| dansmith | yeah | 17:24 |
| mriedem | yes | 17:25 |
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| melwitt | okay. what about for the DB magic instance listing? | 17:25 |
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| mriedem | that's purely poc at this point i think | 17:26 |
| melwitt | so finish the patch and then write a spec? | 17:26 |
| melwitt | if it works | 17:26 |
| mriedem | not sure it requires a spec | 17:26 |
| mriedem | it should be transparent to the user | 17:26 |
| melwitt | oksy | 17:26 |
| melwitt | *okay | 17:26 |
| dansmith | what magic instance thing? | 17:26 |
| mriedem | it's really fixing a bug | 17:26 |
| melwitt | mdbooth's thing | 17:27 |
| dansmith | oh listing | 17:27 |
| * dansmith read that wrong | 17:27 | |
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| mriedem | well i think that's probably certainly enough crap to worry about | 17:27 |
| melwitt | agreed | 17:28 |
| dansmith | cool, so anything else? | 17:28 |
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| mriedem | no | 17:28 |
| melwitt | nay | 17:28 |
| dansmith | awesome | 17:28 |
| dansmith | #endmeeting | 17:28 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "more ptg planning (Meeting topic: requirements)" | 17:28 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Aug 30 17:28:32 2017 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:28 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_cells/2017/nova_cells.2017-08-30-17.00.html | 17:28 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_cells/2017/nova_cells.2017-08-30-17.00.txt | 17:28 |
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| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_cells/2017/nova_cells.2017-08-30-17.00.log.html | 17:28 |
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| ying_zuo | #startmeeting horizon | 20:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Aug 30 20:00:34 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ying_zuo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: horizon)" | 20:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'horizon' | 20:00 |
| ying_zuo | Hi everyone o/ | 20:00 |
| e0ne | hi | 20:00 |
| david-lyle | o/ | 20:01 |
| robcresswell | o/ | 20:01 |
| rdopiera | o/ | 20:01 |
| ying_zuo | #topic Announcements | 20:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: horizon)" | 20:02 | |
| ying_zuo | #info OpenStack Pike is available now! | 20:02 |
| ying_zuo | #link https://www.openstack.org/software/pike/ | 20:02 |
| ying_zuo | Thanks everyone for your contribution in making this release successful! | 20:02 |
| robcresswell | #o/ | 20:02 |
| e0ne | my congratulations! | 20:02 |
| robcresswell | \o/ * | 20:03 |
| ying_zuo | \o/ | 20:03 |
| ying_zuo | #info Schedule for PTG | 20:03 |
| ying_zuo | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/horizon-ptg-queens | 20:03 |
| ying_zuo | Feel free to comment or add more topics in the open discussion time slots. | 20:03 |
| ying_zuo | #info Bug report guidelines | 20:04 |
| ying_zuo | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/horizon/+filebug | 20:04 |
| e0ne | ying_zuo: is it final schedule? | 20:04 |
| ying_zuo | not really | 20:04 |
| ying_zuo | are you planning to add changes? | 20:04 |
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| ying_zuo | you can add more topics in the open discussion time slots | 20:05 |
| e0ne | ying_zuo: not yet. I'm trying to manage my schedule to resolve conflicts and participate in pagination discussion | 20:06 |
| ying_zuo | there's a time slot for it each day | 20:06 |
| ying_zuo | what time will work for you? | 20:07 |
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| ying_zuo | can you let me know in #openstack-horizon? | 20:08 |
| e0ne | ying_zuo: before the noon on Monday or Tuesday will be great for me | 20:09 |
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| e0ne | ying_zuo: but I don't really want to change schedule if only me is interested in it | 20:09 |
| e0ne | ying_zuo: I mean all day Tuesday | 20:10 |
| ying_zuo | I will move it to Tuesday then | 20:10 |
| ying_zuo | unless there's other objection... | 20:10 |
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| e0ne | ying_zuo: thank you. I apprciate it | 20:11 |
| ying_zuo | np | 20:11 |
| ying_zuo | going back to the bug report guidelines topic... | 20:12 |
| ying_zuo | You will notice the report guidelines when you try to open a bug report now. Thanks robcresswell | 20:12 |
| ying_zuo | This is to make sure the bug report has the important information and it will help both developers and reviewers. | 20:12 |
| ying_zuo | #topic Open Discussion | 20:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: horizon)" | 20:12 | |
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| e0ne | I hope, my question will be fast enough | 20:14 |
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| e0ne | myself with rdopiera found that some admin pages could be open by non-admin users: http://paste.openstack.org/show/619772/ | 20:14 |
| e0ne | what is expected behaviour for /admin/ paged? should render some data for non-admin users or raise NotAuthorized error? | 20:15 |
| ying_zuo | do they show admin information? | 20:15 |
| e0ne | ying_zuo: no | 20:16 |
| david-lyle | identity pages are designed to open based on roles and policy, the test is not admin or not | 20:16 |
| rdopiera | they just show messages that they failed to get the information | 20:16 |
| david-lyle | is this via going to the URL directly? | 20:16 |
| rdopiera | yeah | 20:16 |
| david-lyle | shrug | 20:16 |
| david-lyle | :) | 20:16 |
| rdopiera | I was trying to test the new "not authorized" page | 20:16 |
| e0ne | ying_zuo: but sometimes (e.g. hypervisors) it shows almost empty page with error messages like 'can't retrieve data' | 20:16 |
| rdopiera | and stumbled upon that | 20:16 |
| e0ne | for note: it's reproducible on a current master | 20:17 |
| ying_zuo | but that's because the users try to hack the pages | 20:17 |
| rdopiera | ying_zuo: or they just changed the user to one that doesn't have the permission | 20:17 |
| e0ne | I prefer to show some error and do not try to render such pages | 20:17 |
| rdopiera | ying_zuo: which is the reason for working on the not authorized page in the first place | 20:17 |
| ying_zuo | rdopiera: what do you mean? | 20:18 |
| e0ne | ying_zuo: we're talking about this patch https://review.openstack.org/491479 | 20:18 |
| ying_zuo | how can they change the user? | 20:18 |
| rdopiera | ying_zuo: you can switch domains or other things, and suddenly not have the permission to see the page on which you are currently | 20:18 |
| david-lyle | so I'm guessing old policy files | 20:18 |
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| david-lyle | https://github.com/openstack/horizon/blob/master/openstack_dashboard/dashboards/admin/hypervisors/panel.py#L24 | 20:19 |
| david-lyle | that policy rule is relatively new | 20:19 |
| ying_zuo | I see. so they can do actions that they are not supposed to | 20:19 |
| rdopiera | david-lyle: that seems to work fine, as the page is not displayed in the menu | 20:19 |
| david-lyle | rdopiera, ok | 20:19 |
| david-lyle | hmm | 20:19 |
| rdopiera | ying_zuo: no, because the services will check the permissions on their side and not allow that | 20:19 |
| rdopiera | ying_zuo: you just get an empty page with a lot of errors | 20:20 |
| e0ne | ^^ and it's not a user-friendly at all | 20:20 |
| rdopiera | which is not critically bad, in fact could be acceptable | 20:20 |
| rdopiera | but a bit messy | 20:20 |
| ying_zuo | it's cleaner to just disable the panel | 20:20 |
| e0ne | rdopiera: +1 | 20:20 |
| rdopiera | ying_zuo: the panel is disabled correctly | 20:20 |
| rdopiera | ying_zuo: but if you were on that page while you switched domains or users, you will still visit that page | 20:21 |
| ying_zuo | I meant setting the policy rule to disalbe it as david-lyle mentioned | 20:21 |
| ying_zuo | got it | 20:21 |
| rdopiera | we are working on a patch that displays a "not authorized" page then | 20:22 |
| rdopiera | and it works on most of the pages, which raise the correct exception | 20:22 |
| rdopiera | but those pages for some reason don't | 20:22 |
| e0ne | ying_zuo: here is a screenshot of hypervisors page: https://cl.ly/3M423D1Z2b34 | 20:23 |
| ying_zuo | thanks e0ne | 20:24 |
| rdopiera | I think the problem is that they have a catch-all try-except and don't delegate the exception handling to horizon | 20:24 |
| rdopiera | but I didn't verify that | 20:24 |
| e0ne | ying_zuo: other pages in the list look similar | 20:24 |
| e0ne | rdopiera: let's decide what do we want to have first | 20:24 |
| e0ne | rdopiera: IMO, we'll be able to fix it really quick if we decide what is excepted behaviour | 20:25 |
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| * e0ne wants quick meetings at 11pm | 20:26 | |
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| robcresswell | I feel like I missed the "solutions" part of the discussion | 20:28 |
| ying_zuo | I think just raise an exception. doesn't need to show a "not authorized" page. | 20:28 |
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| e0ne | robcresswell: +1 :( | 20:28 |
| david-lyle | where is unauthorized escaping in admin.instance ? | 20:28 |
| robcresswell | So, the Not Authorised page from before is no longer an option? | 20:28 |
| rdopiera | robcresswell: it works on most pages | 20:29 |
| e0ne | ying_zuo: but we're talking about '/admin/some-page' and non-admin users | 20:29 |
| david-lyle | rdopiera, by luck? | 20:29 |
| rdopiera | another possibility is that those pages raise some other exception that doesn't get caught by our "not authorized page" mechanism | 20:29 |
| rdopiera | david-lyle: by courage | 20:30 |
| robcresswell | hahaha | 20:30 |
| e0ne | david-lyle, rdopiera: it depends on policies and who raises NotAuthorized exception | 20:30 |
| e0ne | rdopiera: :) | 20:30 |
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| david-lyle | I'm looking at admin.instance get_data and not seeing any non-blanket "except Exception" | 20:30 |
| rdopiera | I say let's get the page to work on most pages, and then we can start cleaning up the mess | 20:30 |
| david-lyle | so I'm wondering what is working there | 20:30 |
| david-lyle | most likely we're leaking exceptions somehow | 20:31 |
| robcresswell | Alright so... whats the question here, exactly? | 20:31 |
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| robcresswell | ah my internet skipped there, once sec | 20:31 |
| e0ne | the question is: | 20:31 |
| robcresswell | one* | 20:31 |
| rdopiera | "what should we do" :) | 20:31 |
| e0ne | what is expected result for such cases? | 20:31 |
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| robcresswell | e0ne: Expected result? Isn't this what we discussed before though? A Not Authorised page with a login box or something | 20:32 |
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| robcresswell | or a "Go to Login" and "Go to home" | 20:32 |
| e0ne | if non-admin user somehow opens e.g. /admin/hypersvisors/ page. what should be? | 20:32 |
| david-lyle | robcresswell, so we catch all exceptions other than not authorized? | 20:32 |
| robcresswell | david-lyle: Sorry? | 20:33 |
| e0ne | robcresswell: it's a bit different case, but I'm OK to show Not Authorized page | 20:33 |
| david-lyle | the policy before was not let exception bubble up to the user uncaught | 20:33 |
| robcresswell | e0ne: I'm having deja vu, I thought we discussed this a few weeks ago :p | 20:33 |
| robcresswell | david-lyle: Ah, I see your train of thought now | 20:33 |
| e0ne | robcresswell: not really this issue, but very similar | 20:34 |
| david-lyle | which the unauthorized page would cover but at a different level, it seems weird to only bubble that one | 20:34 |
| e0ne | robcresswell: now we have pages that partially work for non-admin | 20:34 |
| david-lyle | partially work is maybe an overstatement :) | 20:34 |
| robcresswell | Not weird, not really. In web stuff I write separately I usually have redirects for specific HTTP codes. (401, 403, off the top of my head) | 20:35 |
| david-lyle | they don't load data | 20:35 |
| david-lyle | robcresswell, sure, ideally we should be explicit about our exceptions | 20:35 |
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| e0ne | robcresswell: e.g.: http://10.13.0.43/dashboard/admin/volume_types/ can be both opened by admin and non-admin users | 20:35 |
| david-lyle | unfortunately things have gotten lax and we attempt to catch all generally | 20:35 |
| e0ne | robcresswell: but non-admins won't see private volume types | 20:36 |
| robcresswell | urgh, this "admin" concept | 20:36 |
| david-lyle | admin is not a concept | 20:36 |
| david-lyle | it's a legacy | 20:36 |
| e0ne | IMO, we should not allow for non-admin to open any of /admin/* pages | 20:36 |
| robcresswell | I meant specifically the Horizon interpretation of admin | 20:36 |
| david-lyle | hiding pages from the nav should be sufficient | 20:36 |
| rdopiera | e0ne: there are no admins | 20:37 |
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| rdopiera | e0ne: permissions defpend on the policies | 20:37 |
| e0ne | OK, replace, please, 'admin' to 'users w/o permissions to open this page or view all data on the page' | 20:37 |
| david-lyle | if a user wants to go directly to a page what is the harm of being told you're not authorized to get the data on the page? | 20:38 |
| robcresswell | So, the issue as described before was something like, if you can see admin/instances on one project, but then you change to one where you can't, Horizon gives you a double login in some circumstances | 20:38 |
| rdopiera | david-lyle: no harm, but it's messy, it would be nicer to show a nice "not authorized" message and a link to the login page | 20:38 |
| david-lyle | on that login page I've lost all context | 20:39 |
| david-lyle | perhaps I'm just scoped to the wrong project | 20:39 |
| robcresswell | david-lyle: Horizon passes through that little "next" link though | 20:39 |
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| robcresswell | Which is problematic if you try a different login, and thats not got permissions either, I *think* is the issue | 20:40 |
| david-lyle | with the project you were scoped to visable to the user? | 20:40 |
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| robcresswell | No, but isn't the idea that you would then login under a different user (magic admin account) to do some action? | 20:40 |
| david-lyle | the user could have been correct | 20:41 |
| david-lyle | the project scope could have been wrong | 20:41 |
| robcresswell | True | 20:41 |
| * robcresswell is thinking | 20:42 | |
| david-lyle | I think it's by strange luck that some pages would filter out and other won't at this point. I worry that the behavior will not be reliable | 20:42 |
| robcresswell | What's the alternative, show a blank page? | 20:42 |
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| david-lyle | just show the page with the error message that you don't have proper privilege to view the contents of this page | 20:43 |
| david-lyle | that's what the identity pages do | 20:43 |
| david-lyle | but they're intended for all users to be able to hit | 20:43 |
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| robcresswell | I wonder if people would complain about losing the redirect functionality | 20:43 |
| lucasxu | i will ;( | 20:44 |
| e0ne | robcresswell: we can redirect to login page with a correct '?next=' param | 20:44 |
| rdopiera | we discussed that already | 20:45 |
| rdopiera | and agreed on it | 20:45 |
| e0ne | rdopiera: +1 | 20:45 |
| robcresswell | e0ne: Right, but I'm saying that if we just displayed a blank page with an error, we lose that | 20:45 |
| rdopiera | the problem now is whether all pages should behave consistently or not | 20:45 |
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| david-lyle | +1 to consistency | 20:45 |
| e0ne | robcresswell: page with error and login link | 20:45 |
| rdopiera | and how urgent it is | 20:45 |
| rdopiera | personally I think it would be nice to be consistent but it's not high priority | 20:45 |
| e0ne | rdopiera: +1, I absolutely agree | 20:45 |
| robcresswell | e0ne: Didn't we just say we can't reliably do that? | 20:46 |
| robcresswell | I *think* what david-lyle was suggesting is that if you go to admin/instances without correct permissions you just show a blank page with "You dont have permissions to do X / Y" | 20:46 |
| e0ne | what about page like https://review.openstack.org/#/c/491479/9/horizon/templates/not_authorized.html | 20:47 |
| e0ne | ? | 20:47 |
| robcresswell | e0ne: You're not reading my questions. Didn't we say earlie that we could not reliably determine that? | 20:47 |
| robcresswell | earlier* | 20:47 |
| david-lyle | I think with policy that becomes a very gray line | 20:47 |
| rdopiera | robcresswell: we can determine very reliably that we got an exception from the api | 20:48 |
| e0ne | robcresswell: we can catch needed API from APIs | 20:48 |
| robcresswell | "Something went wrong. Would you like to log out?" | 20:48 |
| e0ne | *can catch needed exception | 20:48 |
| david-lyle | rdopiera, so are you suggest we rewrite all the excepts in the get_data calls? | 20:49 |
| robcresswell | e0ne: I thought you and rdopiera earlier said we cannot get the exception reliably | 20:49 |
| e0ne | robcresswell: I hope, all APIs can return not authorized. we can handle them correctly | 20:49 |
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| e0ne | robcresswell: it's only in a *current* implementation of some pages | 20:49 |
| rdopiera | david-lyle: something like that, perhaps fix it in the handling of the exceptions, less invasive | 20:50 |
| david-lyle | so so except Exception as e, if e is not UnAuthorized? | 20:50 |
| rdopiera | david-lyle: we have an exception handler function already that handles most of those exceptions | 20:50 |
| rdopiera | david-lyle: but for some reason not all of them | 20:50 |
| rdopiera | david-lyle: and it does see those exceptions, because it displays the messages | 20:51 |
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| e0ne | 10mins reminder | 20:52 |
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| david-lyle | so https://github.com/openstack/horizon/blob/master/openstack_dashboard/exceptions.py#L29 isn't broad enough? | 20:52 |
| rdopiera | apparently | 20:52 |
| david-lyle | hypervisors doesn't use novaclient.Unauthorized? | 20:52 |
| rdopiera | or some other special case is happening | 20:53 |
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| rdopiera | I didn't analyze the code enough to be sure | 20:53 |
| e0ne | david-lyle: the issue is, sometimes we catch Exception and return error message to user instead of re-raising NonAuthorized | 20:53 |
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| * robcresswell reminds everyone we have crippling performance issues on other pages, even if users sometimes have to log in twice when they try and view a page they dont have permissions for. | 20:54 | |
| rdopiera | e0ne: that coould make sense when the page contains multiple things, and some of them the user has permission to see | 20:54 |
| e0ne | rdopiera: good point | 20:55 |
| rdopiera | so maybe let's leave it as it is for now | 20:55 |
| robcresswell | e0ne: If it is possible to correctly identify that a NotAuthorised exception is there in all cases, then we can consider doing something special | 20:55 |
| david-lyle | e0ne, I understand. My two points are I think a blanket unauthorized for a page that attempts to make several API calls may not be correct and two, it seems you'll have to reverse engineer all client authorization failures to handle them properly | 20:55 |
| e0ne | david-lyle: I agree | 20:55 |
| e0ne | looks like we have a decision: | 20:55 |
| david-lyle | to me the unauthorized page is a carry over from the admin/non-admin days when things were binary | 20:56 |
| rdopiera | it's better than the redirect | 20:56 |
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| e0ne | try to handle NotAuthorised if we can or leave it as is for now | 20:56 |
| e0ne | 2mins reminder | 20:58 |
| ying_zuo | cool. I think that's it for today. Thanks everyone for attending. | 20:58 |
| rdopiera | tick tock | 20:58 |
| rdopiera | goodnight | 20:58 |
| e0ne | see you next week | 20:58 |
| ying_zuo | #endmeeting | 20:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "more ptg planning (Meeting topic: requirements)" | 20:58 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Aug 30 20:58:54 2017 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:58 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2017/horizon.2017-08-30-20.00.html | 20:58 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2017/horizon.2017-08-30-20.00.txt | 20:58 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2017/horizon.2017-08-30-20.00.log.html | 20:59 |
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