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| openstackgerrit | Stephen Balukoff proposed a change to stackforge/octavia: Octavia v0.5 component design https://review.openstack.org/113458 | 00:24 |
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| jschwarz | Hey guys, I just read the LBaaS API and Object Model improvement blueprint and had a question, | 12:13 |
| jschwarz | around line 196 and line 215, it is said that the 'subnet_id' field is being moved from the Pool DB object to the Member DB object | 12:14 |
| jschwarz | This implies that the 2 different members which are connected to the same pool can be in different subnets, and specifically from different subnets than the Listener | 12:15 |
| jschwarz | How is it planned to conserve connectivity between them? | 12:15 |
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| dougwig | jschwarz: if a subnet id is specified in members, i believe the longer-term plan is to create neutron ports where necessary to connect it all together. | 13:59 |
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| blogan | or l3 connectivity would work | 14:00 |
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| jschwarz | future? so currently not planned for upcoming version? | 14:07 |
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| blogan | jschwarz: any driver is free to create the ports necessary to get connectivity | 14:14 |
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| blogan | jschwarz: so drivers should do that | 14:14 |
| jschwarz | question was, is it currently implemented/up for review, or is it something that will come in for the K release? | 14:15 |
| jschwarz | also, dougwig, nice job with Kevin benton there ;-) | 14:16 |
| dougwig | :) | 14:17 |
| blogan | jschwarz: no its not currently implemented, but it will be in the ref implemenation by K | 14:17 |
| jschwarz | blogan, thanks :) | 14:17 |
| blogan | jschwarz: i'm also debating whether the plugin should do the port creation automatically | 14:17 |
| jschwarz | blogan, it's not only ports, but also being aware of the different namespaces and routes throughout both nets | 14:19 |
| jschwarz | Also if 2 members are sitting behind different compute nodes it also complicates it a bit more | 14:19 |
| jschwarz | I believe it should be in the service plugin side, but something doesn't feel quite right about it | 14:20 |
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| jschwarz | ... why would the lbaas plugin create ports, change routes? Isn't that the L3 plugin's job? Also all the data is already at the L3 plugin | 14:21 |
| jschwarz | did you consider an IPC between them of some sort? Maybe issue requests from the LBaaS side to the L3 plugin using the notifier or something like that? | 14:23 |
| jschwarz | blogan, & | 14:23 |
| jschwarz | ^ | 14:23 |
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| jschwarz | blogan, I got to go but will be back in an hour or so if you want to continue this! :) | 14:37 |
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| blogan | jschwarz: sorry in the lbaas meeting right now | 14:38 |
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| blogan | bbiab | 15:00 |
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| rm_work | actually, european style breakfast of meat and cheese is much better than our american cereal and shit, IMO :P | 15:01 |
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| sbalukoff | rm_work: it's definitely tastier. | 15:02 |
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| sballe | rm_work, black coffee is the best breakfast | 15:02 |
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| rm_work | T_T | 15:02 |
| rm_work | black coffee on an empty stomach wrecks me a bit | 15:02 |
| sbalukoff | bitter disappointment makes for the worst breakfast. :P | 15:03 |
| sbalukoff | Aah well. | 15:03 |
| rm_work | then again, i don't often eat breakfast at all, so it's moot :P | 15:03 |
| sballe | :-) | 15:03 |
| sbalukoff | That went about as I expected. :P | 15:03 |
| sbalukoff | Unfortunately. | 15:03 |
| rm_work | yeah, ah well | 15:03 |
| sbalukoff | I'm not usually this much of a pessimist. | 15:03 |
| rm_work | me either | 15:03 |
| sballe | Anywho... I think we should think about incubator --> separate incubator openstack pproject | 15:03 |
| dougwig | red bull and tums | 15:03 |
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| sbalukoff | sballe: Yeah, there was discussion of this at yesterday's Octavia meeting too. | 15:04 |
| sballe | I do not believe we can do it without starting under openstack neutron. | 15:04 |
| sbalukoff | I'm looking through Trevor's notes from the meeting, will be helping to flesh those out, and then I expect they'll be sent to the mailing list. | 15:04 |
| sballe | as an incubator project under the networking umbrella | 15:04 |
| dougwig | i think we should sit in the incubator for K, while we focus on octavia, and then either spin out or neutron based on how that experiment has gone (most likely, spin out, for a variety of reasons, neutron politics not included.) | 15:04 |
| rm_work | sballe ++ | 15:04 |
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| rm_work | dougwig ++ | 15:05 |
| sbalukoff | dougwig: I think that might be the only way forward. | 15:05 |
| sballe | we need to stay under the openstack umbrella. Just spining out into stakforge is not of interest for hP | 15:05 |
| sballe | so we'll have to deal with neutron politics for a little while longer and do it the rigth way | 15:06 |
| rm_work | sballe: no one is saying anything about stackforge | 15:06 |
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| sballe | rm_work, understood. Just mentioning in case somebody was thiking it | 15:06 |
| rm_work | i would assume we'd go from neutron-incubator to openstack-lbaas | 15:06 |
| sballe | rm_work, agree. that is my assumption too | 15:07 |
| sbalukoff | sballe: I suspect that promises may have been implied in the last meeting regarding what it means to be part of "openstack" and "incubator" that may not actually be all that clear in the long run. | 15:07 |
| rm_work | though i agree this stinks of "stackforge v2" | 15:07 |
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| dougwig | rm_work: that is most likely, unless neutron undergoes some interesting changes in the next six months. | 15:07 |
| sballe | dougwig, rm_work sbalukoff I agree with what your are saying. Let's focus on Octavia as part of the incubator project and make a decision based on how things are at the end of Kilo | 15:08 |
| rm_work | kk | 15:09 |
| sbalukoff | Specifically, I think what Kyle and Mark were saying was meant more to placate and calm us, rather than them actually knowing what it means to be spun out right now. | 15:09 |
| sbalukoff | I can guess the amout of heat they're under right now in this GBP battle... and they don't want us against them, too. | 15:09 |
| sbalukoff | But yes, all signs point toward concentrating on other areas until there are fewer mines in that particular war zone. | 15:10 |
| sballe | Agreed | 15:10 |
| dougwig | we should not let politics distract us from the true value, which is load balancing. what interface gets put on top, and where it lives, will not get the main useful code working. (and there's just not enough data yet on what that battlefield will look like, so it's speculation.) | 15:10 |
| dougwig | i think that's close enough to call jinx. | 15:10 |
| sbalukoff | dougwig: +1 | 15:11 |
| sballe | We migth not be the problem child but they cannot grandfather us without maybe doing hte same for the GBP | 15:11 |
| sbalukoff | sballe: From what I've read, GBP has a better case for being grandfathered in. So if they don't get in, there's no chance we will. | 15:11 |
| sbalukoff | I think their code was essentially ready at the last summit. | 15:12 |
| dougwig | i'm not sure it's apples/apples. afaik, we don't have any cores actively opposed, we're just not really "done". | 15:12 |
| sbalukoff | Ours... not so much. | 15:12 |
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| sbalukoff | For Octavia's part: I see all this being a sign that we should try to be less closely coupled with Neutron. | 15:13 |
| sballe | dougwig, I agree with your statement earlier let's not speculate. | 15:13 |
| sbalukoff | Hence the reason for the invention of that "networking driver" in the v0.5 component design spec. | 15:13 |
| dougwig | i think it's too early to make any changes; i think your current spec is fine, with perhaps a tad more emphasis on identifying problem neutron touch points in time to submit bp's to fix them in kilo. | 15:14 |
| sbalukoff | dougwig: Sure! | 15:14 |
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| sballe | sbalukoff, Like I mentioned a few month ago we need an OpenStack LBaaS and not a random LBaaS. So while the integration with Neutron should be clean we shouldn;t re-invent Neutron | 15:14 |
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| sbalukoff | sballe: I'm not sure I understood you at the time. | 15:15 |
| sbalukoff | Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "re-invent Neutron" | 15:15 |
| dougwig | off to get ready and head to the office. bbiab. | 15:15 |
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| sballe | sbalukoff, I need to revisit the spec. At HP we only use floating IP to access the LB VM so we cannot do anythign with static IPs or virtual IP taht are not managed by Neutron | 15:16 |
| sbalukoff | sballe: Aah. Ok. | 15:16 |
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| sballe | sbalukoff, By "re-invent Neutron" I just meant we need to access Neutron functionality and not try to re-create it in "networking driver" but I belive we are in agreeemnt | 15:17 |
| rm_work | sballe: i think the "networking driver" is just an abstraction so we can hit Neutron *or* nova-networks, for instance… not rewrite our own networking subsystem :P | 15:18 |
| sballe | rm_work, that is kind of what I thought but just wanted to make sure | 15:19 |
| sbalukoff | sballe: Right. Ideally the networking driver would just be a translation layer to Neutron API commands. But it's likely there will be things to do that aren't exposed via the neutron API, and hence we'll have to do some "dirty hack" stuff in the short term anyway (until API can be exposed) | 15:19 |
| sballe | rm_work, Thanks for the clarification | 15:19 |
| rm_work | or we can have a rackspace-networks plugin fork of "neutron-network-plugin" and same for HP, to handle nuances in our floating-ip implementations, for example | 15:19 |
| sbalukoff | What that might entail is still not well defined yet. | 15:19 |
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| sbalukoff | rm_work: +1 | 15:20 |
| sballe | rm_work, +1 too | 15:20 |
| sbalukoff | Yes, it also allows a 3rd party SDN product to have its own networking driver, so Octavia could potentially live on top of that, too. | 15:20 |
| rm_work | yeah, i like it from a flexibility standpoint | 15:20 |
| rm_work | we definitely won't be writing a full networking stack as a plugin though :P | 15:20 |
| rm_work | so no worries there | 15:21 |
| sbalukoff | And I like it from a "loosely coupled" standpoint. | 15:21 |
| sbalukoff | rm_work: +1 | 15:21 |
| sballe | the SDN plugin would plugin to Neutron as the ML2 driver so I am still asumming we would use the Neutron API | 15:25 |
| sbalukoff | sballe: That'll be the one we develop first. | 15:27 |
| sballe | perfect | 15:27 |
| sbalukoff | If Octavia comes along nicely, I wouldn't be surprised to hear from, say, the OpenDaylight people wanting to develop their own networking driver. | 15:27 |
| sbalukoff | Just sayin' ;) | 15:27 |
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| rm_work | sbalukoff: yeah, it definitely leaves us open to be flexible like that, which i think is good | 15:47 |
| sbalukoff | rm_work: And it actually makes dealing with upstream changes easier for us. Total win-win. | 15:49 |
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| jschwarz | blogan, ping | 15:52 |
| blogan | jscwarz: sorry was in a meeting earlier | 15:52 |
| blogan | got another soon as well | 15:52 |
| jschwarz | thanks alright | 15:52 |
| jschwarz | how about an hour from now? | 15:52 |
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| blogan | got lunch at that time | 15:53 |
| blogan | but I do agree there are things that we need to solve to get the member subnets in a good state | 15:54 |
| blogan | originally we did say that if the subnet_id is not provided by the member hten its either already accessible by routing or by a port that already exists | 15:55 |
| blogan | that doesn't solve for the compute node though that already has a port created | 15:55 |
| blogan | well maybe it does | 15:55 |
| dougwig | "we definitely won't be writing a full networking stack as a plugin though :P" <-- i've heard neutron cores say this. :) | 15:56 |
| rm_work | hahaha | 15:56 |
| jschwarz | lol | 15:56 |
| jschwarz | how did that turn out for them? | 15:56 |
| rm_work | sometimes I feel sorry even for the neutron devs | 15:56 |
| sbalukoff | HAha! | 15:56 |
| * jschwarz is a neutron dev | 15:57 | |
| dougwig | it's the "must have scalable open source". pretty much means they signed up to write a full software SDN controller. | 15:57 |
| * blogan pities jschwarz | 15:57 | |
| * jschwarz sits in a corner, cries alone in the dark | 15:57 | |
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| * blogan collects his tears | 15:57 | |
| sbalukoff | Mmmm.... delicious! | 15:57 |
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| jschwarz | if you have 3 private networks with vas on each one, and across 3 compute nodes.. that's a lot of ports to create | 15:59 |
| blogan | jschwarz: it's late for you right now right? | 15:59 |
| dougwig | or they all have routes, and you don't need ports. | 15:59 |
| jschwarz | also problematic because they are on a separate network for a reason | 15:59 |
| jschwarz | blogan, 19:00 right now, but I can meet in like 2 hours or so | 16:00 |
| blogan | jschwarz: if they are on a separate network for a reason then the user shouldn't create a load balancer to balance between the two | 16:00 |
| jschwarz | then why even allow the option? | 16:00 |
| blogan | so that the users that want to do it can | 16:01 |
| jschwarz | that's contradictory :P | 16:01 |
| sbalukoff | jsxhwarz: We do occasionally see strange requirements like this. | 16:01 |
| sbalukoff | jschwarz: There's often business reasons for keeping them on separate networks... and still other business reasons for needing them accessible by the same loadbalancer. | 16:02 |
| jschwarz | Well, the architecture needs some work (because we didn't start talking about it) | 16:04 |
| sbalukoff | Examples include: Backend A is handled by organizational unit A, and backend B is handled by organizational unit B. And upper management has declared both shall be accessible via different URIs on the same website. | 16:04 |
| jschwarz | I do think that responsibility for this should reside in the L3 plugin, and not spread out across different plugins | 16:05 |
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| jschwarz | Do you guys have weekly meetings I can attend? :) | 16:05 |
| sbalukoff | Also, we're used to dealing with "I don't care if it's not advisable, is it possible?" | 16:05 |
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| sbalukoff | jschwarz: Yes! Wednesdays at 20:00 UTC | 16:06 |
| jschwarz | sbalukoff, agreed, but if we have the chance to make this right, why not try? | 16:06 |
| sbalukoff | Shoot me an e-mail and I'll get you an invite (we're doing them over Webex for now): | 16:06 |
| sbalukoff | sbalukoff@bluebox.net | 16:06 |
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| sbalukoff | Well, that's for Octavia | 16:07 |
| jschwarz | will do in a sec | 16:07 |
| sbalukoff | Neutron LBaaS is Thursdays at 14:00 UTC | 16:07 |
| sbalukoff | In #openstack-meeting | 16:07 |
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| jschwarz | sbalukoff, sent :) | 16:09 |
| sbalukoff | jschwarz: Cool! I'm in a meeting at the moment, too.. will take care of this afterward. | 16:10 |
| jschwarz | roger roger | 16:10 |
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