Tuesday, 2017-07-11

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openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: Create tripleo-upgrade project  https://review.openstack.org/45999307:43
openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: New project for Castellan UI plugin  https://review.openstack.org/47583607:44
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/governance master: Remove remaining 'big tent' references  https://review.openstack.org/48050007:54
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openstackgerritJohn Garbutt proposed openstack/governance master: Describe what upstream support means  https://review.openstack.org/44060110:13
openstackgerritJohn Garbutt proposed openstack/governance master: Describe what upstream support means  https://review.openstack.org/44060110:14
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openstackgerritJohn Garbutt proposed openstack/governance master: Decisions should be globally inclusive  https://review.openstack.org/46094610:28
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morganefried: some of your ksa changes are gating.16:44
morganefried: added a couple comments to 2 of them (the misc-cleanup one and one of the discover ones) that need answers before i'll change from a -1 to something else16:45
efriedmorgan Thanks!16:45
morganefried: the critical "must land before the next release" one notably is one that is gating16:45
morganso we can be sure it is in before we cut a release16:45
efriedmorgan Perfect16:45
efriedmorgan I think I agree with you on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/482250/ -- mordred should weigh in.16:46
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efriedmorgan See specifically mordred's comment at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/481309/3//COMMIT_MSG@1316:46
morganmy point is16:47
morgana null "min" or "max" version may be considered broken16:47
morganis it really valid that we need to handle it16:47
morganor would it make more sense to raise a massive exception?16:47
morganI err to the latter option16:47
morganmordred: ^ re discovery16:48
mordredit's really valid16:48
morganIf we don't actually have a documented case of a broken document, i don't want to land that16:48
morgani get "missing"16:48
morgani get may-or-may not provide16:48
morganbut providing explicitly broken data?16:48
morganand null is explicitly broken16:48
mordredthere are documents taht explicitly provide ''16:48
mordredI do not know that I have seen documents that explicitly provide json null16:49
morgancan we comment which one(s) do, that is all I want for the record16:49
morganbefore we accept it16:49
mordred++16:49
efried"" is explicitly supported16:49
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morganthis is one of those cases where i want documented "this is why this broken behavior is supported"16:49
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morganand i want it in a comment in the code16:49
efriedThe issue here is whether we can have max_version="" *and* version="something sane"16:49
morgan"aka glance does X in release Y"16:49
morgan(not to pick on glance)16:49
morganit is important so we a) maintain it, b) don't regress, and c) know why it was added in the first place16:50
morganas it stands, it looks like "we're hedging bets on someone may make a broken document"16:50
morgani don't like that.16:50
efriedmorgan Agree.16:50
efriedBut have to defer to mordred to say whether there really is a busted doc out there.16:51
efriedAlthough I'm not sure I would go so far as to say this would be a *broken* doc.16:51
morgani would.16:51
efriedSince "" is a supported thing by itself.16:51
morganit is saying "maxversion is <invalid data>"16:51
morganthat to me is broken.16:51
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efriedNo, max_version="something that doesn't translate to a version tuple" would be broken.16:52
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morgana non-string, non-version-like-data-in-string-form, non-version-like-data (and "" is not version data), is broken16:52
morgani guess, int/float is ok16:52
efriedmorgan Well, if we make that assertion, then we need a bigger change.16:52
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efriedBecause today it definitely supports empty string and maps it to None16:53
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morganbasically, i want clear documentation in the code of why we're supporting weird/non-version-like-data behaviors in a doc.16:53
morganand that is probably wrong.16:53
morganbut, if we document where that is happening and in what release(s).16:53
morgani'm happy to accept the code.16:53
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efriedOkay; I'll surely follow y'all's guidance on this.16:54
morgani would classify None, "", "MyVersion", "IWroteThisWhenIWasSleepDeprived2" all to be invalid16:54
mordredyah - I think documenting is a great plan16:54
morgan1, 1.1, 1.1.1, 1.1.1.1 [ugh, don't get me started], "1", "1.1", "1.1.1" ... all to be valiud16:54
mordredyup16:54
efriedAnd "v1", "v1.2", etc.16:55
mordredand I think we should document that we treat '' as if the key wasn't provided, but we expect to error on MyVersion16:55
morganits just one of those cases where i err to the stricter side unless we can point and say "here is why we do it"16:55
mordredyah?16:55
morganmordred: i actually disagree16:55
morgani think '' should also be invalid.16:55
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mordredmorgan: we have to accept '' - it's widely used16:55
mordredkeystoneauth will not work with openstack clouds if we do not accept it as data in the discovery document16:56
morganso lets point at a couple places and say "this is not ideal and should be invalid, but is widely used by X,y,z and we must support it"16:56
efriedAnd if that's the case, then IMO we should truly treat "" the same as not-included16:56
morganthat's all i'm asking for if we treat "" as not-included16:56
mordredya - sorry - that's what I was trying to say - we should document it as bong but accepted because of cases16:56
morganbecause historically broken is fine, we maintain it as much as i don't want to16:56
efriedWhich means that (other than adding some comments) the code fix is valid as proposed.16:57
morganbut new broken is ugh16:57
morganefried: correct.16:57
morganneeds code-doc and i can reverse the -1 to a +216:57
morgan*or* it needs to raise an exception/error because we don't have to support "" ;)16:57
efried...even if we can't point to a specific case of max_version="", version="1.2"16:57
morgani want a real case pointed to, mordred please help us dig one up16:57
mordredone sec16:57
morgani am sure you know of one16:57
efried:)16:58
efriedI'll be back to check on this in a bit, will catch up in backscroll.  Thanks guys.16:58
* morgan will then go eat breakfast, walk the dog, send emails, and then write up a deprecation patch for keystone template-catalog [shudder]16:58
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mordredmorgan, efried_lunch: http://paste.openstack.org/show/615050/17:00
mordredmorgan, efried_lunch: tl;dr "nova"17:01
morganmordred: perfect.17:01
* mordred knew it was important fora reason ;)17:01
morganefried_lunch: ^ just add a comment that nova infact does this as of ... whatever release that is :P17:01
morganand we're good17:01
efried_lunchmorgan Roger wilco.17:02
morgani still assert that is a broken document... but *shrug*17:02
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efried_lunchmordred What version is that?17:02
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efried_lunchI guess 2.0, microversion 2.38?17:03
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mordredefried_lunch: that's whatever vexxhost is running17:09
mordredefried_lunch: but pretty much any nova version that has microversion support is going to return that for the 2.0 version17:09
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efriedmordred morgan Okay, I don't quiiite understand.  We want this comment to say that at least nova at <some version> has empty version strings in its discovery document.  Do we want <some version> to be like, "pike"?  Or like "v2.0"?  Or like "microversion 2.46"?19:08
morganefried: you could say "nova api v2.0 as of <release>"19:09
morganor whatever19:09
morganjust some indicator of why it was like this19:10
efriedmorgan Where <release> is like... "pike"?19:10
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morganyeah19:10
efriedokay, on it.  Thanks.19:10
morganor mitaka, or whatever19:10
morganyou could just say nova v2.0 api presents this way19:10
morganand that is sufficient19:10
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morganbut if you can put in an actual release in the comment, that would be even better19:11
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mordredthe release is 'starting with whatever release first added microversions'19:12
mordredso I think I agree with "morgan | you could just say nova v2.0 api presents this way"19:13
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efriedmorgan mordred Ah, rats, pushed it up before I saw those last couple notes.19:15
efriedLet me know if/how you want it tweaked: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/482250/19:15
morganwfm19:15
morgan+219:16
morganthanks for the note19:16
efriedThanks!19:16
mordred++19:16
efriedDropped in an eavesdrop link in case future us wants more detail on wtf this was about :)19:18
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morganwfm19:18
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efriedmordred Want me to have a crack at updating https://review.openstack.org/#/c/477566/ ?19:25
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mordredefried: yes please!19:36
efriedight19:36
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efriedcmurphy https://review.openstack.org/#/c/477566/4/doc/source/using-sessions.rst@171 -- I think min_version and version actually *do* mean the same thing in this context.19:56
efriedBut I think I need mordred to clarify a little.19:57
mordredefried: looking19:57
efriedoh, never mind, they don't mean the same thing at all.19:57
efriedI think I get it.19:57
mordredefried, cmurphy: yes - they mean the same thing19:57
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mordredefried, cmurphy: the only difference between version and min_version is whether or not max_version is also given19:58
efriedmordred Butbutbut... version=2.0 will not match 3.0; whereas min_version=2.0,max_version=latest will19:58
mordredbasically, having min_version, max_version parameters for rangers and a version parameter for exact matches19:58
mordredoh 0 yes19:58
mordredefried: you are very correct - thank you19:58
mordredefried: there is indeed an actual semantic difference19:59
efriedversion=2.0 will match 2.anything19:59
efriedBut nothing else19:59
mordredefried: yup. version=2.0 is like min_version=2.0 max_version=2.latest (I don't think _that_ syntax actually works)19:59
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cmurphythanks for clarifying - i still think the wording could be touched up to make it clearer20:00
efriedcmurphy Agree, working on it.  Thanks.20:01
efriedmordred It actually appears as though anything after the first '.' in `version` is ignored (well, as long as it's validly numeric)20:04
efriedmordred Cancel that.20:04
efriedI am wrong20:04
mordredefried: really? I think it's _supposed_ to at least express a min- so if you had a cloud that only had v2.0 and you requested version=2.0 it _should_ fail?20:05
mordredok. good20:05
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efriedyahyah.  If you say version=2.2, you don't get 2.1, but you get 2.3.  (And you don't get 1.anything or 3.anything)20:05
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openstackgerritDoug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: move the vision from reference to resolution  https://review.openstack.org/48268620:18
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openstackgerritDoug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: move the vision from reference to resolution  https://review.openstack.org/48268620:21
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efriedcmurphy mordred Okay, done, see what you think.20:34
efriedhttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/477566/20:34
efriedand morgan ^^20:34
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mordredefried: looking really good20:38
mordredefried, cmurphy: I wonder if we should add a note that these version, min_version and max_verison only apply to major api version and not to microversions20:39
cmurphymordred: please do20:39
cmurphythat difference is super confusing20:39
efriedI'm super confused by it too.20:39
efriedI don't understand the difference between '2.4' and '2.4'.20:40
mordredok. maybe I need to write a short narrative on the differences20:41
mordredcmurphy, efried I lke that patch - left three notes in it20:42
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efriedmordred I think I'm going to have to get a better understanding about major versions and microversions before I try to wordsmith anything.20:53
mordredefried: ok. I'll write a paragraph20:54
efriedPerhaps in the context of an example on something I've at least seen, if not necessarily understand.20:54
mordredefried: the major distinction is that major versions define an endpoint - so nova major version v2.1 is at https://compute.example.com/v2.120:54
mordredwhereas microversions are a property of a given major version20:55
efriedSo, like, in nova, we're in like the 2.40s or .50s in microversions.20:55
mordredso the compute endpoint at https://compute.example.com/v2.1 declares a min and max microversion it supports20:55
mordredand then theclient can request a given microversion on a PER REST CALL basis20:55
mordredso a microversion is not a property of a connection20:55
mordredit is a property of an individual request20:55
efriedAyee, is there any requirement of numeric agreement between the major version and the microversions?20:56
mordredso you say "openstack-compute-api-version: 2.38 GET /servers"20:56
mordredno20:56
mordredaltohugh in common practice there is20:56
efriedSo theoretically myservice v2.3 could support microversions 5.10-5.3320:56
mordredthe min microversoin for nova 2.1 is ... 2.120:56
mordredit could - but in openstack land that service would be mocked by its friends20:56
efriedokay, that's good to know.20:57
efriedBut following the nova example...20:57
mordredbut in general, you find the major version you want20:57
mordredthen you find out what microversions it supports20:57
mordredthen you request or don't reuqest those microversoins when you make rest calls20:57
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mordredif you don't request one, it'll default to min_microversion20:57
efriedLet's say we're up to microversion 2.55 on major version 2.1... If they wanted to release a new major version, would it have to be called 2.56?20:57
mordredwhich SO FAR is the same as the major version for all of our services, but I believe ironic is going to do a bump in theirs20:57
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efriedCause it would be real confusing if it was called v2.220:58
mordredefried: if nova wanted to release a new major version, it would be called "v3"20:58
efriedSo what's the point in having the .1 in the major version?20:58
efriedso to speak20:58
mordredthe 2.0 / 2.1 is a way to deal with the fact that nova didn't provide microversion information in its version discovery document for 2.020:58
mordredso having a 2.1 endpoint tat is identical except that it provides a different version discovery doc20:59
mordredwas the way around 'breaking' the api compat20:59
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mordredefried: this whole thing is made more complex because python*client do not present microversions to their users on a per-call basis20:59
efriedAh, so in a more normal case, where everyone's following the rules, a major version would only have (or at least, need) one digit.20:59
mordredefried: yup20:59
efriedwhich makes it more confusing that we normalize 'em all to two.21:00
mordredyah - well - there are many things up in here where I'd make changes if I could travel back in time21:00
mordredbut for now, just understanding it all is a great step forward21:00
* morgan still greatly dislikes microversions.,21:00
efriedSo where do >2-part version numbers come into play?21:01
efried(Oh, I may have just awakened morgan's bugbear too)21:01
rockygmordred, quickie -- InteropWG has 2 full days scheduled at PTG -- Monday and Tuesday.  In case I don't get the info to the rest of the TC in office hours21:01
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morgannope, i just pretend they don't exist and let other people write code around them21:01
morgan*cough* like mordred *cough*21:02
mordred:)21:03
cmurphyi've only recently started engaging with microversions and all of a sudden mordred's schemes started making sense21:03
mordredmorgan: I have come to like them a lot - but the way they are presented in the python-*client libraries removes all usefulness they have21:03
cmurphyya :(21:03
mordredmorgan: if you actually interact with them as they exist at the REST layer, they're GREAT21:03
mordredbut that is not how anyone is seeing them right now - so people say things like "I want the endpoint for microversion 2.38"21:04
mordredwhich is just flat wrong21:04
mordredbut - I will now write a paragraph about that real quick21:04
cmurphymordred: are you good with https://review.openstack.org/#/c/481309/5 ? i think it looks right21:05
mordredcmurphy: yes - I just +2d but didn't +A in case you wanted to21:06
cmurphydone21:06
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morganmordred: i actually dont like microversions from a rest interaction either (not openstack's model of "microversions" that is)21:12
morganif it was more like libtool's versioning... i'd be happier21:12
mordredmorgan: I originally thought so too - but libtool's versionining is about declaring what API contracts an overall api can support21:13
mordredmorgan: whereas microversions says you can pick on an invocation by invocation basis which contract you want to use for a given function21:13
morgani think it's a bad bad design for lazy api development21:14
mordredthere isn't really a good equivilent in c linking21:14
morgan*shrug* we wont ever agree on this21:14
morganfwiw21:14
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morganso, i'll stick with "i wont deal with microversions" and focus on the stuff I can get behind.21:15
morganit's not an argument i can win nor really shift the direction of openstack with21:15
mordredindeed - and fair21:15
morgani dislike rapid iteration on *any* api.21:16
mordredI think I've been swayed beause the previous approach with major versions sucked so much worse21:16
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mordredso if this prevents people from doing more major version changes - I'm all in :)21:16
morgani would rather do major api changes and have a well thought out target for the API. but it's that last part that we missed on so very much21:16
morgani would rather see keystone v4, than microversions in keystone ftr. (and NO not for auth, god no more auth tied to CRUD)21:17
morgananyway... going back to other things than talking about API design principles for the sake of talking about api design principles21:18
morgan:P21:18
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cdentI’m almost relieved I missed that ^ conversation21:24
mordredcdent: hey - don't go anywhere - I'm writing a paragraph for keystoneauth's docs about major and microversions21:25
mordredit would be good to get a quick eyeball on it21:25
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cdentmordred, sure, i’m still typing away on my tc report, so I should be around for a while longer21:25
morganmordred: ugh, i want the new X1C... i can't justify spending $2k atm for a smaller laptop (bezel cut down) when my current one works fine.21:26
mordredcdent, efried: https://review.openstack.org/48271021:26
mordredcmurphy: ^^21:26
mtreinishmorgan: would you get it in silver? :p21:26
mordredmorgan: :)21:27
morganmtreinish: can't w/ discounts atm21:27
mordredmorgan: I'm excited that the retro thinkpad may actually be coming out soon21:27
morganmtreinish: but honestly, yes. i would in silver if i could.21:27
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morganmordred: it is reported it is this year (from official lenovo sources)21:27
morganmordred: but i am not holding my breath for a laptop I actually want from it21:27
mordredmorgan: I'm cautiously optimistic - since the only purpose of doing such a thing woudl be to appeal to the people who desire it to be similar to what I want, and otherwise literally no humans would buy it21:28
mordredmorgan: but - I agree21:28
mordredmorgan: I'm definitely not holding my breath21:28
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rockyghey, morgan, just wanna say I whole heartedly agree with you on API versioning, thoughtful design and long life...but this statement is a footnote.  I'm not holding myu breath for Thinkpad classic, either21:32
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mordredcdent: "OpenStack-API-Version: compute 2.22" does everyone support that now? or is there an old form that sometimes needs to be sent too?21:39
cdentmordred: I’m not certain that everyone is new way yet.21:40
cdentI made the change in nova, and did it that way in placement from the start, but don’t know about anything else21:40
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cdent(nova supports both, of course, because it has too)21:40
mordredcdent: the old version is "X-OpenStack-Nova-API-Version: 2.114" right?21:40
cdentlet me just confirm21:41
cdentmy brain is weak21:41
mordredblerg. that's going to be exceptionally ugly to support :(21:41
mordredas the string "nova" isn't actually part of anything that exists anywhere21:41
cdentX-OpenStack-Nova-API-Version21:41
mordredcdent: thank you for making the new thing a thing that is tractable21:41
cdentyeah, I bought into the idea of service types whole hog and once I did that, I was like “private info in the left hand side of a header pair is bogus”21:42
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cdentgood doc changes on the keystone stuff mordred, had several suggestins, but overall nice21:47
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cdentoh, my stats, I have disagreed with cmurphy’s +2. heaven forfend!21:49
cdentefried: I may need to make this my new sig: “Something something Big Tent something Governance something something Official.”21:50
efriedcdent I will sue for copyright infringement.  Cause that's open.21:50
cdentsomething something fair use something something parody something21:51
efried:D21:52
mordredcdent: I meant it can be confusing in a keystoneauth context as one starts to use keystoneauth to do version discovery for you21:52
mordredcdent: where the previous typical use of keystoneauth did not have keystoneauth be the one handling version discovery21:52
* mordred is talking out loud to try to figure out a good rewording21:52
cdentquack21:53
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efriedmordred I believe pursuit of https://review.openstack.org/#/c/477566/5/doc/source/using-sessions.rst@268 has uncovered a bug.21:57
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efriedmordred I think it goes like this: If I init an Adapter(..., version='v1.2', ...) and then call that guy's get_endpoint_data(..., min/max_version=whatever, ...), I'll get spanked for "specifying" mutually exclusive version + min/max_version.21:59
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efriedmordred Which, granted, I *sorta* did.  But I'm not sure if that's really the expected behavior.  Like I'm thinking, if min/max_version is given to Adapter.get_endpoint_data, perhaps we should *not* add Adapter.version into the kwargs.22:00
efriedmordred Though perhaps we *also* make sure that the specified min/max_version is compatible with the Adapter's `version`.22:02
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mordredcmurphy, efried, cdent: https://review.openstack.org/482710 may be better now?22:06
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mordredefried: hrm. good clarification - I _think_ my personal intent originally is that the purpose of get_endpoint_data on an adapter is to get the endpoint data associated with the given adapter22:07
mordredefried: using an adapter to get arbitrary endpoint data for a different versioned endpoint seems ... weird22:07
mordredefried: maybe we should not accept arguments on adapter's get_endpoint_data?22:08
efriedmordred So perhaps it shouldn't accept arbirtary kwargs to pass through.  Perhaps it should *just* construct kwargs via ...22:08
efriedyeah, what you said.22:08
mordredefried: if a person really wants an arbitrary discovery result, they can always do adapter.session.get_endpoint_data22:08
efriedgross22:08
efriedI think that's arguably even more confusing.22:09
efriedIt may be technically possible to do, but I certainly wouldn't recommend it in a doc or anything.22:09
efriedIf you want an arbitrary discovery result not related to an Adapter you already built, you should build a new Adapter, or a new Session, or use an auth you've got lying around, or something.22:10
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efriedmordred This also made me wonder whether it makes any sense for Adapter.__init__ to accept min/max_version (as mutually exclusive with the existing `version`).22:10
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mordredefried: yes22:11
mordredefried: does it not? I think adapter has to accept the whole gamut22:12
mordredif it doesn't accept min/max that was an oversight not an intent22:12
efried    def __init__(self, session, service_type=None, service_name=None,22:12
efried                 interface=None, region_name=None, endpoint_override=None,22:12
efried                 version=None, auth=None, user_agent=None,22:12
efried                 connect_retries=None, logger=None, allow={},22:12
efried                 additional_headers=None, client_name=None,22:12
efried                 client_version=None, allow_version_hack=None,22:12
efried                 global_request_id=None):22:12
efriedI'm on the branch with that rst we're reviewing, which may be based on a backlevel master commit.22:12
efriedLemme look on github...22:13
efriedmordred Nope: https://github.com/openstack/keystoneauth/blob/master/keystoneauth1/adapter.py#L73-L7922:13
efriedUnless that change hasn't landed yet.22:13
efriednope.22:14
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efriedSo.22:15
mordredefried: neat! good find - we should add22:15
efriedmordred Sounds like we want to put up a patch to make 1) Adapter.__init__ accept min/max_version; and 2) Adapter.get_endpoint_data not accept arbitrary kwargs.  And then delta https://review.openstack.org/#/c/477566/ to reflect same.22:16
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efriedmordred You going to do that patch or want me to have a crack at it?  (I wouldn't get to it til tomorrow.)22:17
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efriedSince it's mucking with public APIs, I guess it also needs to be done before we release.22:17
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mordredefried: I can do it on top of this patchset I've got going22:17
efriedight22:17
efriedHasta mañana, y'all22:18
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cdentmordred: 🚢22:45
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mordredcdent: you are more skilled with typing than I22:52
cdenti think not sir, I think I can paste22:52
* cdent waves goodnight22:56
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mordrededleafe: I just remembered I need to add support for your next_min_version23:23
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