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| openstackgerrit | Pengfei Ni proposed openstack/governance master: Add project openstack/stackube. https://review.openstack.org/462460 | 02:54 |
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| johnthetubaguy | mordred: did I remember to tell you about this forum session I really think you would like to be in, its quite shade related: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/BOS-forum-using-vm-and-baremetal | 10:25 |
| johnthetubaguy | cdent: given the API WG links, I wonder if you wanted to help moderate that one actually? ^ | 10:25 |
| * cdent checks his schedule | 10:25 | |
| johnthetubaguy | cdent: I am hoping these ones will be interesting too: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/BOS-forum-operating-vm-and-baremetal | 10:26 |
| johnthetubaguy | an experiment to try improve the feedback loops | 10:27 |
| cdent | johnthetubaguy: I've only got six things I want to do in that first time slot... | 10:28 |
| * cdent sighs | 10:28 | |
| * cdent gets it down to three | 10:29 | |
| cdent | only seven on the second | 10:30 |
| * cdent trims | 10:30 | |
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| cdent | johnthetubaguy: I'm going to have to do some vigorous scheduling adjustments. I would like to be there for those. | 10:31 |
| johnthetubaguy | cdent: that would be great, thanks | 10:31 |
| johnthetubaguy | cdent: its amazing how many good sessions there are at once for most of the Forum, let along anything else | 10:32 |
| johnthetubaguy | I think thats a positive... | 10:32 |
| cdent | it's great to see | 10:32 |
| cdent | but hard to manage | 10:32 |
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| johnthetubaguy | yeah, +1 | 10:32 |
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| cdent | I was hoping to use this summit to do a bit more self-education than I normally get a chance to do, but the responsibilities have compounded | 10:34 |
| cdent | I'm anxious(?) about how little I actually know | 10:34 |
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| johnthetubaguy | cdent: I trying to console myself that acknowledging there are big gaps is half the battle | 10:38 |
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| * cdent nods | 10:38 | |
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| dims | sdague : ++ on "Anyone can captain a ship when it's a sunny day." | 12:29 |
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| sdague | :) | 12:32 |
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| cdent | I enjoyed that too | 12:34 |
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| cdent | But I'm not sure we're offering a strong enough statement on what needs to happen. Is it simply put up or shut up? | 12:35 |
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| johnthetubaguy | cdent: find some resources to commit to do the work? | 12:45 |
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| cdent | right, but it seems like that's not being stated explicitly | 12:45 |
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| cdent | or rather, the essence of the statement is being deferred to someone else making the decision or assertion | 12:45 |
| cdent | avoidance | 12:45 |
| cdent | the usual game | 12:45 |
| johnthetubaguy | true | 12:46 |
| sdague | cdent: I don't know, I thought doug was pretty explicit | 12:46 |
| cdent | in the thread, but there's something that needs to happen elsewhere, I'm not entirely sure what | 12:46 |
| cdent | so it doesn't, as you say, keep coming back every year | 12:46 |
| sdague | cdent: it will keep coming back | 12:47 |
| cdent | and we should be able to point at something, more strongly than we do now | 12:47 |
| sdague | this is our version of the same "give me free stuff!" that every popular open source project gets | 12:47 |
| cdent | it shouldn't need to be a thread | 12:47 |
| cdent | it should be a "read this" | 12:47 |
| sdague | cdent: that's fine, it will still become a thread | 12:48 |
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| sdague | because people will come back with "but this time is different" | 12:48 |
| * cdent attempts to give sdague some of his newbie optimism | 12:48 | |
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| cdent | In this week's thread I haven't yet seen anyone point to a resolution or document | 12:49 |
| sdague | sure, it's 2 days old, in the week before summit | 12:49 |
| * cdent sighs | 12:49 | |
| cdent | what I mean is that there should have already been a document | 12:49 |
| cdent | and since there's not | 12:49 |
| cdent | we've identified a gap | 12:49 |
| cdent | which, at our leisure, we can fill | 12:50 |
| cdent | that's all | 12:50 |
| sdague | cdent: I am happy that you believe that a document will solve this | 12:50 |
| cdent | I do not believe that | 12:50 |
| cdent | I believe that it will save time | 12:50 |
| sdague | I do not | 12:50 |
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| * cdent shrugs | 12:50 | |
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| cdent | good thing there's both of this in this world | 12:50 |
| cdent | both of *us | 12:51 |
| sdague | but, I might be a little extra jaded right now, given the number of times I've had to directly share the email where I wrote up the systemd run_processes changes this week, and followed up with answers that are already in there | 12:52 |
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| sdague | anyway, I think that folks that want to challenge the status quo here, aren't going to be satisfied with a document that was drafted some time in the past, and it will remain a thread every year | 12:53 |
| sdague | because the challenge is not that there are no reasons for the status quo, it is that they don't like the status quo | 12:54 |
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| cdent_ | maybe that's okay? | 12:54 |
| cdent_ | maybe the status quo needs to change? | 12:54 |
| cdent_ | maybe we don't know | 12:54 |
| sdague | sure, but you were attempted to short circuit the thread? | 12:54 |
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| sdague | cdent_: so, counter proposal, if you believe there is a document that you could write that would clarify this, ++ | 12:55 |
| cdent_ | I have a vm in my brain thinking about it in the background | 12:56 |
| sdague | having been through this conversation half a dozen + times, I am unconvinced of any words I could put down that would be effective | 12:56 |
| cdent_ | I think a lot of it is being _far_ more explicit about the reality of the kind of open source that openstack is | 12:56 |
| cdent_ | yes, which is why it is good that new and different points of view come along | 12:57 |
| sdague | cdent_: sure | 12:57 |
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| mordred | johnthetubaguy: yes - I will definitely be at that | 13:45 |
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| mordred | johnthetubaguy: or, rather, I will be at the second session - I'm giving a talk on shade during the first one | 13:47 |
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| mordred | sdague: morning! - I have written up a proposal for dealing with the service-types.yaml: https://review.openstack.org/462815 | 13:49 |
| sdague | mordred: ok, I am unlikely to look at it today with the other things I need to prep for next week | 13:50 |
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| mordred | sdague: sure - summit is coming up after all | 13:58 |
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| mordred | sdague: tl;dr - define filesystem lookup paths for it, so that distros can ship it like tzdata, also define URL to fetch from, and define a precedence order for local file, url and bundled-with-library | 13:59 |
| mordred | johnthetubaguy: OH - wait - I suck - it's the operating session I hav ea conflict with - I will definitely be at writing apps session | 14:01 |
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| sdague | mordred: ok, I lied, I went and looked at the thing | 14:04 |
| sdague | so... have you looked at how tzdata is delivered previously, because I think we're still missing steps here | 14:04 |
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| * sdague warns, is a timezone geek, and looked into this whole space a ton in the past | 14:05 | |
| sdague | but, the olson db provides a pretty good pattern for open data exchange that works | 14:05 |
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| cdent | put everything in dns txt records! | 14:09 |
| mordred | sdague: I mean, I havne't read that spec - so my knowledge on that is mostly on the distro package consume side - being that it's date versioned and intended to always have the latest version used | 14:09 |
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| sdague | right, so there is source | 14:11 |
| sdague | and a compiler down to a binary format for injest | 14:11 |
| sdague | which is what's in your tzinfo files | 14:12 |
| mordred | yup | 14:12 |
| sdague | so we have source, and version implicit in git | 14:12 |
| mordred | that would be the same here actually - I may have left that part out | 14:12 |
| sdague | but before we get to publish we're going to need to add version explicit in the publish files | 14:12 |
| sdague | for nothing else, than debug, because "latest" is not useful when it comes to open data | 14:13 |
| mordred | ++ | 14:13 |
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| sdague | then, it would be totally game to build language native libs for this, and publish out to nodejs, gems, pips | 14:13 |
| sdague | but that's actually a different part of the process | 14:13 |
| mordred | yah - I can update with that - and also the transform I was thinking of doing on it as well | 14:14 |
| mordred | and ++ to node/gems/etc | 14:14 |
| sdague | like python tzdata encodes the data upstream | 14:14 |
| mordred | yup | 14:14 |
| sdague | but, actually, when distros ship it, they patch out all the data files | 14:14 |
| sdague | because they are already tracking them elsewhere | 14:14 |
| mordred | exactly | 14:14 |
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| sdague | anyway, so I honestly think for starting point, we don't jump to "build a lib" | 14:15 |
| sdague | we get this thing published out there, version embedded | 14:15 |
| mordred | yah - I wasn't going to jump to build a lib? | 14:16 |
| mordred | (did that come across as the goal of this?) | 14:16 |
| sdague | well, there is a lot about filesystem placement | 14:16 |
| sdague | I honestly think that gets very far into those bits of implementation | 14:16 |
| mordred | that's so that ... I mean, ok | 14:16 |
| sdague | and, I don't want us to be there yet, honestly I really think we just need to reopen with keystoneauth "lets embed this json" | 14:17 |
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| sdague | because, honestly, it's not all that onerous. | 14:18 |
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| mordred | I'm feeling very much like you're giving sets of conflicting feedback - since 2 days ago you were strongly against implementing it in keystoneauth before we had defined how it works in a non-python specific manner | 14:18 |
| sdague | ok, that could be | 14:18 |
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| sdague | maybe I'm inferring too much | 14:19 |
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| mordred | so the reason it talks about fileysstem locations and whatnot is so that we can focus on publishing hte data and also giving other languages guidance on how to consume that data | 14:19 |
| mordred | so that they all consume it the same, if they choose to make libraries | 14:19 |
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| sdague | mordred: right, but that assumes something about how distros / containers / venvs / nodejs things want to do things | 14:19 |
| mordred | so that if distros start shipping it like they do tzdata things will just work - but if the distros don't, there's still an easy path for consmers regardless of language | 14:19 |
| sdague | maybe that's the thing I want to get away from | 14:19 |
| mordred | right | 14:19 |
| sdague | tzdata never says "put this there" | 14:20 |
| sdague | it says, here is some data | 14:20 |
| sdague | and a reader | 14:20 |
| sdague | and people compile and put it in a place that works in whatever their system is | 14:20 |
| mordred | sure- but we hav ea much different audience than tzdata | 14:20 |
| mordred | our audience are "people who want to use a rest api" | 14:20 |
| sdague | mordred: possibly, but I think the moment you move from open data, to open data that we expect to be this way on this operating system, you've mixed concerns | 14:21 |
| sdague | I kind of want to stop at "here is open data, published in the following way, with this vesion" | 14:21 |
| mordred | ok. I mean, we can kill the filesystem lookup stuff and just say "here's some data, fetch it or download it or whatever" | 14:21 |
| sdague | yeh, here is the authoritative source, here is the historical record, and off you go | 14:21 |
| cdent | +1 | 14:22 |
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| mordred | I disagree that that's the right choice - but you seem to feel strongly about it and I'd rather get the data published than stand on principle about it | 14:22 |
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| sdague | right, so I think the missing bit is embedding sensible versions into a compiled for non git access | 14:23 |
| mordred | k. I'll work that up | 14:23 |
| sdague | I can totally be on board with json being our compiled for non git access format | 14:24 |
| sdague | yaml is our source format, that allows versions, and compiles to json for universal consumption | 14:24 |
| mordred | woot (yah, it's the LCD that everyone is guaranteed to be ok with these days) | 14:24 |
| sdague | sorry, allows for comments | 14:24 |
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| sdague | I just hate source formats that don't support comments | 14:24 |
| mordred | me too | 14:24 |
| cdent | i just hate | 14:26 |
| mordred | me too | 14:26 |
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| mordred | sdague: do you have opinions on what the version should be? just a git sha? or should we also attempt to put in something monotonically increasing? | 14:29 |
| sdague | mordred: monotonically increasing, or date based would be my preferences | 14:30 |
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| mordred | sdague: how about we put in a version: {date} and also a sha: {git-sha} so that it's easy to track back to the git source? | 14:31 |
| sdague | sure | 14:31 |
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| sdague | I think we also want to make sure all the versions we publish stay out there, so it's easy to go look up things without git - (ala ftp://ftp.iana.org/tz/) | 14:33 |
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| mordred | that's pretty easy to do - although for this data is that really valuable? (people can always go browse git.o.o after all | 14:34 |
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| sdague | it feels like if we want it easy consumed by people we just want to get into that pattern | 14:37 |
| sdague | I do realize that in openstack we mostly fall back to "it's in git", but we're talking about a publish artifact that people want to use. | 14:38 |
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| mordred | yah - well, we publish source tarballs too, so I'm plenty on board with that | 14:39 |
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| sdague | mordred: cool, this all seems like a plan | 14:40 |
| mordred | woot! | 14:40 |
| mordred | I'll get that spec updated, then make a schema for the published form of the data and the script to do the data transform | 14:41 |
| mordred | (over in the sta repo) | 14:41 |
| sdague | and, just because, if you need some distraction today, reading the tz file source is amazing - ftp://ftp.iana.org/tz/tzdb-2017a/northamerica | 14:41 |
| sdague | mordred: sounds good | 14:41 |
| mordred | sdague: I will definitely NOT go read that because I'm pretty sure I would fall very fall down a hole | 14:42 |
| sdague | it is quite a hole | 14:42 |
| sdague | the commentary is quite amazing as they piece together the historical record of timezones in civilization | 14:43 |
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| mordred | on bad days the internet is an epically terrible place | 14:44 |
| mordred | but on good days it's genuinely amazing | 14:44 |
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| mordred | sdague: k. https://review.openstack.org/462815 updated | 14:45 |
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| sdague | mordred: at least one snipet to make you happy - http://paste.openstack.org/show/608995/ | 14:47 |
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| cdent | ha! | 14:51 |
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| mordred | sdague: wow. that's awesome | 15:14 |
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| sdague | like I said, the whole thing is amazing | 15:24 |
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| kashyap | mordred: s/bad days/most days/? :-) (Me stops being the troll example) | 15:43 |
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| kashyap | sdague: Thanks for the snippet! | 15:44 |
| kashyap | Damn good bait | 15:44 |
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| mordred | kashyap: :) | 16:13 |
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| mordred | sdague: https://review.openstack.org/462984 - transform script, schema, docs - and also a bit more validation on incoming patches | 16:14 |
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| cdent | dtroyer++ | 16:54 |
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| openstackgerrit | Bin Hu proposed openstack/governance master: Add Project Gluon to OpenStack Big-Tent https://review.openstack.org/463069 | 22:56 |
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