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| openstackgerrit | John Garbutt proposed openstack/governance master: Decisions should be globally inclusive https://review.openstack.org/460946 | 10:18 |
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| openstackgerrit | John Garbutt proposed openstack/governance master: Decisions should be globally inclusive https://review.openstack.org/460946 | 10:24 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: not sure I totally understood your think that related to the above proposal from reading back the IRC logs. Would be good to catch up with you to see if the new version makes it clearer what I was trying to express | 10:27 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: honestly, struggling to articulate the thoughts in my head around this stuff | 10:27 |
| sdague | sure | 10:27 |
| sdague | I'm still cafinating, so you'll have to be patient with me | 10:27 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: no problem | 10:27 |
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| sdague | so, I feel like the heart of the proposal is "when making decisions, make sure that you are representing the whole community, not just the people that happen to be in the room" | 10:29 |
| sdague | but that's different than not making decisions synchronously | 10:29 |
| sdague | not making decisions synchronously is a partial process fix to forgetting an important point of view | 10:29 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: yeah, +1 that, now you spell it out like that | 10:30 |
| sdague | but it also comes with a ton of down sides of making people no longer feel empowered to do things, because it hasn't been signed off by "nebulous asynchronous system" | 10:30 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: maybe what I really want is for both side to be consciously aware of the trade off | 10:31 |
| persia | On representation: a distinction that can sometimes be useful is the difference between representing the views of all who are affected by a decision vs. representing the views of all who are expected to have a voice in a decision. | 10:31 |
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| sdague | I honestly think that if we are going for inclusiveness, communication will serve us much better. That when we agree to things make sure to reflect that back into "the historical record" on the mailing list, both so we all remember it later, and so that anyone that wasn't there can say "hold on... did you consider X?" | 10:32 |
| sdague | because we're also talking about culture change in a bunch of these things, and changing culture needs to be done carefully, otherwise you break a ton of working parts that you never knew worked because of the current culture, in trying to fix things. | 10:34 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: thats certainly feels like the most important part of it | 10:34 |
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| johnthetubaguy | yeah, very true | 10:34 |
| sdague | persia: yeh, that's a good point as well. There are a myriad of opinions, and distinguishing between stakeholders and peanut gallery ends up being important | 10:35 |
| sdague | in the most extreme version of that | 10:35 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, I guess as the proposer you want to find out that "did you consider X" bit thats super valuable | 10:36 |
| sdague | right | 10:36 |
| persia | I usually consider it the difference between "the polity" and "the body politic", but yes. | 10:37 |
| johnthetubaguy | other actors that feel affected by something, in some ways want the opportunity to express "did you consider X" before it is in some sense "too late", etc | 10:37 |
| sdague | persia: that is a much nicer and less extreme exageration | 10:37 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: sure, that's understandable | 10:38 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: so, do we have 3 instances where you think we failed here? Because being specific might help figure out what the narrow fix is | 10:39 |
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| johnthetubaguy | Maybe what I am really looking for is us being explicit about the trade offs being made, so the tweaking, if needed, can be more... informed | 10:39 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: so the current patch gives more examples, but prehaps not explicitly enough | 10:40 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: I think one example is when folks feel they have to get up in the middle of the night to get their project into projects.yaml | 10:40 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: I guess the other is when people give up pushing a feature because they can't get to the PTG/summit/midcycle to push the idea forward | 10:41 |
| johnthetubaguy | they are a bit generic I guess | 10:42 |
| sdague | so, the middle of the night for projects.yaml is a good instance of us doing that wrong I think | 10:42 |
| sdague | I honestly don't understand why those are agenda items any more (except in extreme cases) | 10:42 |
| sdague | I'll be honestly, I pretty much go do other work during those sections, because that should have been done in the gerrit / email thread entirely. | 10:43 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: I do get the concern about the fact that it's harder to build concensus for things when you don't end up with face time with folks, but that feels more like figuring out how we build concensus without those moments. | 10:45 |
| sdague | which, honestly, is A Hard Problem (tm) | 10:45 |
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| johnthetubaguy | +1 on both counts | 10:47 |
| sdague | so, this is a slide I made for Boston in my talk about solving hard problems in OpenStack - https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/1/view/0rmdzh79wnde232/Apps/Shutter/screenshot_243.png | 10:48 |
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| openstackgerrit | John Garbutt proposed openstack/governance master: Decisions should be globally inclusive https://review.openstack.org/460946 | 10:50 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: yeah, three blind people meeting an elephant in the forrest is the way I talked about that problem from a different angle: https://www.slideshare.net/johnthetubaguy/working-with-upstream-openstack-deadlines-and-internal-deadlines | 10:52 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: yep, basically | 10:53 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: oh, actually, my slide 12 is trying to describe a similar thing | 10:53 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: I prefer your one, mine doesn't work without me talking | 10:54 |
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| sdague | so, maybe we start with removing the meeting *requirement* from projects | 10:59 |
| sdague | * The project has regular public meetings on IRC and those meetings are | 10:59 |
| sdague | logged and published (moving to official OpenStack meeting channels once | 10:59 |
| sdague | the project's application is accepted, if they're not held there already) | 10:59 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: thanks that helped me clarify quite a few things, uploaded a bit of update to the governance patch, will think on that over lunch | 10:59 |
| sdague | that's literally acceptance criteria for projects | 10:59 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: oh, good point | 10:59 |
| johnthetubaguy | that came up before, I keep forgetting thats a thing | 11:00 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: having said that, I would love to see the alternative work well first | 11:00 |
| sdague | johnthetubaguy: right, I'm not saying we get rid of meetings, I say that we don't enforce that irc meetings are required | 11:01 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: ah, got you | 11:01 |
| sdague | there is a difference, the same thing during the TC meeting yesterday | 11:01 |
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| openstackgerrit | John Garbutt proposed openstack/governance master: Stop requiring public IRC meetings https://review.openstack.org/462077 | 11:05 |
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| sdague | ok, so, I'm going to counter the idea a little bit. I feel staying up in the middle of the night for projects.yaml changes is just bad form, and we shouldn't make anyone do that unless there is deadlock on review and people want to talk to the core team to figure it out. | 11:05 |
| sdague | that's just a direct bug that's fixable with no grand process change | 11:06 |
| sdague | on the rest of it, from my perspective it seems like the thing that's made most people feel not included isn't even the decision happening somewhere | 11:06 |
| sdague | that they aren't | 11:07 |
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| sdague | it's that they never knew that was decided | 11:07 |
| sdague | because it was communicated poorly, or not at all | 11:07 |
| johnthetubaguy | sdague: OK, either way, that sounds like a good concrete step | 11:07 |
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| johnthetubaguy | sdague: yeah, thats certainly a massive part of it | 11:07 |
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| sdague | if we look at the break down / run around on placement being mandatory, and also deployed differently than nova-api, how much of that was that not being communicated out? (to be concrete on a recent point of friction) | 11:09 |
| sdague | because the plan is pretty sound, but it's still surprising to people not in the nova channel | 11:09 |
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| openstackgerrit | Sean Dague proposed openstack/governance master: Change the target for this goal to uWSGI not Apache mod_wsgi https://review.openstack.org/460951 | 12:05 |
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| openstackgerrit | Paul Belanger proposed openstack/governance master: Create openstack-zuul-jobs / openstack-zuul-roles projects https://review.openstack.org/462143 | 12:57 |
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| sale_ | hi | 13:56 |
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| sale_ | once installing via devstack, the vm turns out be terribly slow..anyone afced similar isue? | 13:57 |
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| sdague | sale_: how big is your VM? are you swapping a lot? | 15:12 |
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| dansmith | slagle: I had the same reaction and killed a couple draft replies to mordred myself. Thanks for actually saying it. | 23:43 |
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| dims | dansmith : slagle : agree! | 23:48 |
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