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| asalkeld | lifeless: async event spec -> https://review.openstack.org/#/c/185822/ | 02:18 |
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| lifeless | asalkeld: I'm down with openplague right now, you may need to remind me later in the week | 02:45 |
| asalkeld | ok, get better | 02:45 |
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| jgriffith | dims: I submitted a revert https://review.openstack.org/185992 | 13:45 |
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| jgriffith | dims: and am interested in seeinf if I can help maintain | 13:45 |
| jgriffith | dims: s/seeinf/seeing if/ | 13:45 |
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| dims | jgriffith: awesome! thanks, fyi there's a #nova-docker, please hop in there as well | 13:46 |
| jgriffith | dims: I'll have a look this afternoon and see what kind of shape it's in currently | 13:46 |
| jgriffith | dims: Oh indeed! | 13:46 |
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| ZZelle_ | lifeless_, hi | 13:47 |
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| lifeless_ | ZZelle_: hi | 15:53 |
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| ZZelle_ | lifeless, could you have a look to https://bugs.launchpad.net/testtools/+bug/1456370 and https://bugs.launchpad.net/python-fixtures/+bug/1456353 ? | 15:57 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1456370 in testtools "cleanups not called when fixture setUp fails with useFixture" [Undecided,In progress] - Assigned to Cedric Brandily (cbrandily) | 15:57 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1456353 in Python Fixtures "cleanups not called when setUp fails with useFixture" [Undecided,In progress] - Assigned to Cedric Brandily (cbrandily) | 15:57 |
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| ZZelle_ | lifeless, in order to choose if we can abandon previous bug workarounds in neutron | 15:59 |
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| lifeless | hi, yes - sorry, summit + open plague + was head down on the pip stuff; will get to it in near future | 16:00 |
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| ZZelle_ | lifeless, no pb | 16:01 |
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| jogo | SpamapS: ping zaqar at summit | 19:09 |
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| jogo | SpamapS: sounds like you were at some of those sessions. Am I the only one feeling like this is Deja Vu | 19:09 |
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| mtreinish | jogo: nope, it seems to be very similar to me too | 19:10 |
| dims_ | jogo: saw amrith's thread? | 19:11 |
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| jogo | dims_: I believe so, the one about not finding a use case | 19:12 |
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| dims_ | jogo: y felt weird reading it | 19:14 |
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| jogo | dims_: me too | 19:15 |
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| flaper87 | jogo: what part do you think is a Deja Vu? | 19:27 |
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| flaper87 | In Zaqar's history, I've had tons of those moments and I'm on the fences everytime I see it happening again | 19:27 |
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| jogo | flaper87: ahh just the person I was hoping to find, I wasn't sure if you were up or not | 19:28 |
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| flaper87 | jogo: here :D | 19:28 |
| jogo | flaper87: the part where it sounds like we are evaluating if zaqar should exist or not | 19:28 |
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| jogo | so the title 'zaqar will stay' | 19:29 |
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| flaper87 | yeah, I'm afraid that title was a bit.... dramatic ? | 19:29 |
| flaper87 | It was a follow up from my email before the summit, TBH. | 19:29 |
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| flaper87 | I don't think we're evaluating that, TBH. I hope that was not the tone of my email. However, we did stop everything before the summit (or kinda) to evaluate whether there was going to be adoption or not | 19:30 |
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| flaper87 | As I mentioned in the email, some projects showed *actual* interest this time. This is to say, they'll actually dedicate time to this | 19:31 |
| jogo | flaper87: so that was the tone that I read, but it may have been my personal skew | 19:31 |
| flaper87 | Whereas in previous cycles, we spent time discussing use cases, plans and whatnot and nothing happened | 19:31 |
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| flaper87 | jogo: oh, I'm happy to take some guilt on that | 19:31 |
| jogo | ahh so you actually expect to have real adoption by the end of the cycle? | 19:32 |
| flaper87 | I might not have express the results correctly | 19:32 |
| flaper87 | I do | 19:32 |
| flaper87 | We're actually working on that already | 19:32 |
| flaper87 | And just today I saw some patches showing up in Heat's repo for the software config step | 19:32 |
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| jogo | flaper87: so http://www.forbes.com/sites/benkepes/2015/05/22/how-are-organizations-using-amazons-cloud/ | 19:33 |
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| jogo | flaper87: neat | 19:33 |
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| jogo | flaper87: the link above shows SNS is in one survey the number 3 most popular service | 19:34 |
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| jogo | and SQS (a lot closer to zaqar then SNS IMHO) is #4 | 19:34 |
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| jogo | which is to say SQS and SNS (which does neat things like send emails and text messages for cheap) is really popular | 19:34 |
| flaper87 | that's awesome news for Zaqar, TBH. Zaqar is actually SQS+SNS. It has notifications built-in, which has always been one of the "selling" points of it | 19:35 |
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| jogo | its really bad SNS though | 19:35 |
| flaper87 | jogo: it's not complete, I agree. | 19:35 |
| flaper87 | We started the work on that area during Kilo | 19:35 |
| jogo | right, its very incomplete but putting that aside for a moment | 19:36 |
| flaper87 | so, I do expect it to have several issues but the goal is to get there | 19:36 |
| * flaper87 puts that aside | 19:36 | |
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| jogo | focusing on the SQS aspect for just a moment, my question to you is how does zaqar throw of its stigma of a dead man walking? | 19:36 |
| * jogo things of zaqar that way | 19:36 | |
| jogo | in other words I know SQS is really really useful -- but somehow zaqar isn't getting nearly the same kind of adoption | 19:37 |
| flaper87 | That's a fair and honest question that I've asked myself | 19:38 |
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| jogo | because that seems like a larger question then what projects will adopt SQS | 19:38 |
| flaper87 | I guess the simplest answer would be... prooving itself | 19:39 |
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| jogo | and AFAIK a lot of the SQS use cases are user generated inputs and outputs | 19:39 |
| flaper87 | Unfortunately, the easiest way to do that is finding adoption (either from projects or deployments) | 19:39 |
| jogo | what about sample applications? | 19:39 |
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| jogo | I don't think adoption from other openstack projects has to be the right answer | 19:40 |
| flaper87 | Agreed, I meant adoption in general | 19:40 |
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| flaper87 | Although, the ones I've been targeting are openstack | 19:40 |
| flaper87 | no doubt on that | 19:40 |
| flaper87 | I agree sample applications would be a good way to help Zaqar grow too. | 19:41 |
| flaper87 | IIRC, elkarso was working on something | 19:41 |
| flaper87 | but I'll let him talk for himself | 19:41 |
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| flaper87 | jogo: actually, I'll dedicate some time to that too. Thanks for the advice | 19:42 |
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| flaper87 | As I mentioned in my email before the summit, the team focus during this cycle will be on throwing away that stigma | 19:42 |
| flaper87 | As in, we'll help those projects ourselves to make this happen | 19:43 |
| jogo | https://aws.amazon.com/sqs/faqs/ is interesting, the document there use cases etc | 19:43 |
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| flaper87 | It's a big thing to say because the team is small but... | 19:43 |
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| flaper87 | mmh, I believe our FAQ covers most of those but I might be wrong | 19:44 |
| jogo | well its not about the content per se. but about what is emphasized | 19:44 |
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| jogo | can zaqar do: Have Amazon SQS help a browser-based application receive notifications from a server. The application server can add the notifications to a queue, which the browser can poll—even if there is a firewall between them. | 19:44 |
| jogo | and Use an Amazon SQS queue as a queue of work where each message is a task that needs to be completed by a process. One or many computers can read tasks from the queue and perform them. | 19:44 |
| jogo | I assume yes to the second | 19:45 |
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| flaper87 | the second yes, the first we're working on that. The websocket transport didn't make it in Kilo | 19:46 |
| flaper87 | That said, we'd need a js lib for that anyway | 19:46 |
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| flaper87 | I do get your point though | 19:46 |
| jogo | flaper87: ahh, because that seems really really useful | 19:46 |
| flaper87 | and I think it makes a lot of sense | 19:46 |
| jogo | as for internal adoption, in openstack projects, I do wonder where we can use it instead of rabbitmq | 19:46 |
| flaper87 | jogo: part of the websocket transport landed but it's not ready to be used | 19:46 |
| flaper87 | I'd love to see horizon using it from the browser | 19:47 |
| flaper87 | for instance | 19:47 |
| jogo | (notifications?) | 19:47 |
| flaper87 | jogo: yup | 19:47 |
| jogo | well how would horizon use it? | 19:47 |
| flaper87 | As a way to receive notifications instead of polling services (this would require OpenStack to use Zaqar for notifications, though) | 19:47 |
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| Anonissimus | utilisation tresholds for example | 19:47 |
| jogo | flaper87: the horizon case sounds like the last step in a long arc | 19:48 |
| flaper87 | jogo: it is, yes. | 19:48 |
| jogo | as a user building something on top of openstack this can be really useful | 19:48 |
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| jogo | say: processing images. zaqar to send jobs to workers, and notification back to browser when it is ready | 19:49 |
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| flaper87 | right, that's another good one. I think most of the things that would make sense sending back to the user could also go through Zaqar. | 19:54 |
| flaper87 | one of the things the Trove team asked for was having an o_m driver and I guess that'd make integration simpler in some areas | 19:55 |
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| flaper87 | but one of the things we've tried not to do is to make ppl think that it's a drop-in replacement for rabbitmq, which is why there's no driver for o.m | 19:56 |
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| flaper87 | The team certainly has lots of work ahead :D | 19:57 |
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| jogo | right zaqar != rabbit, but I don't think o.m requires all the rabbit traits, at least not in all cases | 20:00 |
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| SpamapS | jogo: inherently oslo.messaging will become more and more rabbitmq-shaped as the community standardizes on rabbitmq. | 20:08 |
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| SpamapS | jogo: which is, I think, a shame, as I'm starting to think we need to get away from using brokers for direct RPC. | 20:09 |
| flaper87 | SpamapS: I agree on that last thought and, FWIW, I've been also doing more experiments on that area | 20:10 |
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| SpamapS | brokers are good for measuring queue lengths... which is useful for most of the places we use the 'cast' call, and probably good for notifications too. | 20:11 |
| SpamapS | But for RPC, the broker is just a waste of time. | 20:11 |
| SpamapS | seems like 0mq is building some support in the community.. though I really wish everybody using it with patches would step out of the shadows. | 20:13 |
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| dims_ | SpamapS: we've drummed them out and merged patches | 20:17 |
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| SpamapS | dims_: yeah, it seems like it's moving. But did we get any patches from Reliant? Soren said they're using it, heavily patched, but they're way behind trunk. | 20:18 |
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| dims_ | SpamapS: looking | 20:18 |
| flaper87 | I'm curious to know how they are doing so | 20:18 |
| flaper87 | keeping just o.m behind trunk is not easy | 20:18 |
| flaper87 | oh well, I guess the just keep that driver | 20:19 |
| flaper87 | mhmh | 20:19 |
| flaper87 | my brain is tired, I need to move to the US to have enough time to talk to SpamapS :D | 20:19 |
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| flaper87 | SpamapS: I saw you replied to Zaqar's thread and Zane replied to your reply. That means you probably dropped a bomb there. Didn't you? :D | 20:20 |
| SpamapS | flaper87: I think everybody either ends up 2 stable releases behind trunk + all their debt, or 2 weeks behind trunk + all their debt. | 20:21 |
| SpamapS | flaper87: I dropped a crazy crazy idea. | 20:21 |
| flaper87 | SpamapS: I knew it! | 20:21 |
| SpamapS | flaper87: it's not urgent, and if you have better things to do you can ignore it. Just suggesting that it might be possible to use a large scale SMTP/IMAP setup as the backing store for Zaqar. | 20:22 |
| flaper87 | I'll probably reply tomorrow with a fresh head. | 20:22 |
| SpamapS | since many of our operators likely have such a thing already. :) | 20:22 |
| dims_ | SpamapS: can't find traffic on Soren or Reliance in the last cycle | 20:22 |
| SpamapS | dims_: They've many developers, but they stay downstream mostly. :( | 20:22 |
| flaper87 | lol, that's like saying to a kid: "Nothing will happen but you know, it's entirely possible that you'll find a nice gift under the tree tomorrow morning" | 20:23 |
| flaper87 | how am I suppose to sleep now and not think about that? | 20:23 |
| dims_ | flaper87: Santa will only come if you get to bed and sleep :) | 20:23 |
| flaper87 | jokes apart, It's not entirely crazy, TBH. | 20:23 |
| flaper87 | dims_: lol | 20:24 |
| flaper87 | I think mordred was playing with that a couple of months ago (or at least he had good intentions) | 20:24 |
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| SpamapS | flaper87: Yeah mordred and I were looking at something like postfix+dovecot+AFS == profit | 20:25 |
| mtreinish | SpamapS: that sounds like a fun recipe | 20:25 |
| SpamapS | The one sort of wild card in there is that every single SMTP/IMAP service will have their own weird auth mechanism. | 20:25 |
| mtreinish | and set of things I've deployed in the past (although probably not well) | 20:25 |
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| mordred | flaper87: what did I do? | 20:57 |
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| mordred | SpamapS: I'm certain that it wasn't related to postfix or dovecot | 20:57 |
| mordred | SpamapS: and that it was related to exim and cyrus - since we actively know how to run giant systems using those | 20:58 |
| mordred | but yeah | 20:58 |
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| bpokorny | ayoung: ping | 21:03 |
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| ayoung | bpokorny, didn't your mother teach you it is not polite to send naked pings? | 21:03 |
| ayoung | Minie didn't | 21:03 |
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| bpokorny | Haha, sorry about the nakedness.. | 21:04 |
| ayoung | dress up that ping, please | 21:04 |
| ayoung | what's up? | 21:04 |
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| bpokorny | We talked briefly at the summit about Horizon hashing of PKI tokens. | 21:04 |
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| bpokorny | I read through your blog post on the topic: http://adam.younglogic.com/2012/10/pki-tokens-horizon/ | 21:05 |
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| bpokorny | From what I understand at this point, it looks like Horizon sends just the hash of the token to services. | 21:06 |
| bpokorny | And then the services send the hash of the token to keystone. | 21:06 |
| bpokorny | Is that your understanding of how it works at this point? | 21:06 |
| dstanek | bpokorny: i think it always sends the token | 21:06 |
| dstanek | bpokorny: if it's a short token it is probably uuid and not pki | 21:07 |
| dstanek | also pki tokens can be validated on the horizon side i believe | 21:07 |
| bpokorny | In our keystone setup, we use pki tokens, but here's what I'm seeing in the Horizon logs for API calls: | 21:08 |
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| bpokorny | http://paste.openstack.org/show/240644/ | 21:08 |
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| bpokorny | The neutron call seems to be sending just the hash of the token or getting a UUID token somehow. | 21:08 |
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| bpokorny | (Those tokens are now expired) | 21:09 |
| ayoung | bpokorny, you describe what happens in PKI tokens, yes | 21:09 |
| dstanek | ayoung: only the hash is transmitted to keystone? | 21:10 |
| ayoung | dstanek, Horizon cannot validate tokens | 21:10 |
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| ayoung | dstanek, from horizon, yeah | 21:10 |
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| ayoung | it is ugly hack | 21:10 |
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| dstanek | ayoung: bpokorny: well you learn something new everyday - that's really ugly | 21:10 |
| bpokorny | dstanek: yep | 21:10 |
| dstanek | ayoung: does horizon pass the hash to the other services to the actual token? | 21:11 |
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| ayoung | dstanek, there was a fix for DOA that made it not break with other tokens formats, but still PKI tokens get hashed, due to size constraints | 21:11 |
| ayoung | one of the many things that PKI tokens got too large to fit inside was a Horizon session cookie | 21:11 |
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| bpokorny | ayoung: In our case, we no longer use session cookies, and use memcached for storing the session info. | 21:12 |
| dstanek | ayoung: where do we parse the {SHA1} to know it's a hash of a pki token? | 21:12 |
| bpokorny | So that's one way around overflowing the cookie size. | 21:12 |
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| ayoung | DOA | 21:13 |
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| dstanek | bpokorny: that causes other issues like a smaller pool for sessions based on slab size | 21:14 |
| ayoung | http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/django_openstack_auth/tree/openstack_auth/user.py#n84 dstanek | 21:14 |
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| dstanek | ayoung: thx | 21:14 |
| ayoung | dstanek, I didn;t know how to fix it without adding another config option..and config is in horizon, not DOA | 21:15 |
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| morganfainberg | ick :( | 21:16 |
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| bpokorny | What we're seeing now is that the current behavior prevents one Horizon from being used with two keystones. | 21:17 |
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| jogo | SpamapS: have you looked at AMQP 1.0? | 21:17 |
| jogo | SpamapS: also more subtle SQS vs Rabbit differences -- no promise of in order, and at least once delivery | 21:17 |
| bpokorny | Since the two different keystones don't know about each other's tokens. | 21:17 |
| jogo | both things we can handle in most of openstack | 21:18 |
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| bpokorny | ayoung: I was hoping there was some config option I hadn't seen yet to turn that off, but sounds like config wasn't a possibility for this behavior. | 21:19 |
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| jogo | SpamapS: https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-US/Red_Hat_Enterprise_MRG/2/html/Messaging_Programming_Reference/Differences_between_AMQP_0-10_and_AMQP_1.0.html | 21:20 |
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| ayoung | bpokorny, possible might be too strong a word. Just call me lazy | 21:22 |
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| bpokorny | ayoung: Makes sense. I'll take a look at proposing a patch to use a config option for it. | 21:33 |
| bpokorny | (although lazy isn't the word I'd use :) | 21:33 |
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| ZZelle_ | zzzeek, hi | 21:48 |
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| zzzeek | ZZelle_: hello | 21:48 |
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| ZZelle_ | zzzeek, i am working on https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1451576 | 21:51 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1451576 in neutron "subnetpool allocation not ensuring non-overlapping cidrs" [Undecided,In progress] - Assigned to Cedric Brandily (cbrandily) | 21:51 |
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| zzzeek | ZZelle_: OK | 21:52 |
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| zzzeek | ZZelle_: is the issue that for the retry to work the PG lockmode has to be reduced? | 21:53 |
| zzzeek | ZZelle_: or the MySQL one | 21:53 |
| zzzeek | ZZelle_: or...what | 21:53 |
| ZZelle_ | zzzeek, currently we found no common approach for mysql + postgres | 21:54 |
| ZZelle_ | zzzeek, one approach i am working on is to choose a candidate, create (ie: insert) the candidate than use recheck the candidate don't brake our business constraint (which cannot be expressed as an SQL filter) | 21:54 |
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| zzzeek | ZZelle_: jay suggested a retry_on_deadlock decorator. Does the failure condition without any fix here result in a deadlock ? | 21:55 |
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| ZZelle_ | zzzeek, but to retry we need to ensure the business constraint is broken (rollback and retry) or not (commit) | 21:57 |
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| zzzeek | ZZelle_: OK so, there is no deadlock ? e.g. no way to detect failure other than doing a SELECT ? | 21:57 |
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| ZZelle_ | zzzeek, and the recheck requires to use transaction isolation level READ UNCOMITTED | 21:58 |
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| zzzeek | ZZelle_: i htink oyu mean READ COMMITTED | 21:58 |
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| ZZelle_ | zzzeek, nope, otherwise 2 uncommitted transactions won't see the insert done by the other one? | 21:59 |
| zzzeek | ZZelle_: you never want to use the data in an uncommitted transaction as a record of anything | 21:59 |
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| ZZelle_ | zzzeek, but if you commit the transaction, you need a new transaction to rollback what you inserted? | 22:00 |
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| zzzeek | ZZelle_: youre in a transaction. you modify some data. you want to see if another concurrent transaciton has done something conflicting. you do the SELECT. you’re in READ COMMITTED, you’ll see it | 22:01 |
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| zzzeek | ZZelle_: being in READ UNCOMMITTED implies you’d want to read another transaction *in progress*, and you dont even know if that transcation will commit | 22:02 |
| zzzeek | ZZelle_: part of the enginefacade spec is that it will be a simple pattern to set the transcation isiolation level per method | 22:02 |
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| zzzeek | ZZelle_: if i could get people to care about it, then it could get merged | 22:03 |
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| ZZelle_ | zzzeek, but if both transactions performs the select before the other commit, no transaction will see the data inserted by the other transaction? | 22:03 |
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| ZZelle_ | and both transactions are commited | 22:03 |
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| zzzeek | ZZelle_: I dont really know the overall thing you are trying to do | 22:05 |
| zzzeek | ZZelle_: i dont know if the operation is an INSERT or UPDATE and i dont know what htese elaborate “business conditions” are that cannot be assembled | 22:05 |
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| zzzeek | ZZelle_: also as far as galera it is very difficult for me to decide approaches as at RH we put everyone on one galera node for writes, which allows SELECT FOR UPDATE without issue. But I dont undersand how SELECT FOR UPDATE has anything to do with the fact that you want to INSERT soemething | 22:06 |
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| ZZelle_ | zzzeek, we are doing inserts with constraints implemented in python (because we are dealing with cidrs) | 22:07 |
| zzzeek | ZZelle_: its hard for me to know even looking at the gerrit because it is all high level methods id ahve to trace into what they actually do | 22:08 |
| zzzeek | ZZelle_: SELECT FOR UPDATE has no impact on inserts | 22:08 |
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| ZZelle_ | zzzeek, we lock a row in a table T1 to insert in an other one T2 (the constraint is per T1 row) | 22:09 |
| ZZelle_ | zzzeek, perhaps it's better i propose a PoC | 22:09 |
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| zzzeek | ZZelle_: in Postgresql, read uncommitted is not possible in any case http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.1/static/transaction-iso.html | 22:23 |
| zzzeek | ZZelle_: and in MySQL with InnoDB im not sure if it is either. b.c. with MVCC I’m not sure how read uncommitted can even work | 22:23 |
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| zzzeek | ZZelle_: that is, you’d ahve a much better chance of UPDATE / SELECT seeing each other if you were using autocommit, or IOW transaction-per-statement | 22:24 |
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| ZZelle_ | zzzeek, arghhh sql kills me | 22:26 |
| zzzeek | ZZelle_: either work up a POC for me or Id ahve to dig into all this code and see what it all does b.c. im not like Jay, I need to understand the problem very specifically for me to have a non-silly answer | 22:27 |
| ZZelle_ | zzzeek, ok | 22:27 |
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| ZZelle_ | zzzeek, no need to dig in the code, we need to change it | 22:28 |
| zzzeek | ZZelle_: somehow I’ve gotten through 15 years or so of SQL without ever needing things like this so I tend to think there are other ways of approaching these problems (though losing SELECT for UPDATE in all cases, that is tricky). | 22:28 |
| zzzeek | ZZelle_: it could be that we say, neutron requires a single galera node for writes | 22:28 |
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| zzzeek | ZZelle_: jaypipes doesnt agree with that but that’s a thing a lot of us are doing anyway, ive been working on that a lot | 22:28 |
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| ZZelle_ | zzzeek, for the moment, neutron uses with_lockmode and it becomes more and more difficult to remove the remaining with_lockmode | 22:30 |
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| zzzeek | ZZelle_: its very hard fo rme to say. the whole world of opentack moves in 100 directions at once and I can barely make the smallest changes, it is impossible to decide on general architectual approaches | 22:32 |
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| ZZelle_ | zzzeek, no comments :) it's really hard to see/understand the common patterns (if any) between OS projects | 22:33 |
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| zzzeek | ZZelle_: yup | 22:34 |
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| zzzeek | ZZelle_: there you go, +2, problem solved :) | 22:45 |
| zzzeek | ZZelle_: i have such a long way to go to get openstack projects to have a reasonable database pattern | 22:45 |
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| ZZelle_ | zzzeek, when i read EngineFacade docstring, it seems we can improve OS projects :) | 22:48 |
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| zzzeek | ZZelle_: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/138215/ | 22:59 |
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| SpamapS | mordred: sorry, I forgot that you were all like "exim and cyrus" and I was all like "what are those?" ;) | 23:17 |
| SpamapS | jogo: I'm quite aware of AMQP 1.0. That has absolutely no place in a discussion of Zaqar. It is not an AMQP server, nor is that what its users have requested. | 23:17 |
| SpamapS | jogo: Cue is chasing that. | 23:18 |
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| jogo | SpamapS: the context was w.r.t. ZMQ | 23:18 |
| mordred | SpamapS: :) | 23:18 |
| jogo | SpamapS: agreed not related to zaqar | 23:18 |
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| mordred | SpamapS: of the people who still actually run email themselves at scale rather than use a hosting company, I believe exim/cyrus are the clear leaders. I do not know why postfix/dovecot have such a following in the one-box-shops - but maybe it's because they're easier to use for one-box-shops? | 23:19 |
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| SpamapS | jogo: got it. amqp of any version is an odd notion when talking about synchronous RPC where you are going to wait for a response before proceeding (which means you don't have to worry about reliable delivery or even having a broker) | 23:19 |
| mordred | I mean, fastmail uses cyrus :) | 23:20 |
| mordred | SpamapS, flaper87: however - I actually think exim/postfix has no part in the "use email for this" converstion | 23:20 |
| mordred | since I think smtp is a red herring | 23:20 |
| SpamapS | mordred: I don't know either. I never needed to scale SMTP or IMAP beyond N+1 where N was 2. :-P | 23:20 |
| jogo | SpamapS: well AMQP 1.0 has a brokerless option | 23:21 |
| mordred | cyrus has a scalable clustered messaging backend system that supports direct message writing and retrieval | 23:21 |
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| mordred | SpamapS: so what you do is deploy either cyrus in single machien mode - which will probably scale similarly to mysql in single machien mode | 23:21 |
| SpamapS | mordred: smtp is good for fire-and-forget. Waiting for an IMAP random-access thing to ACK your message is going to be slow. | 23:21 |
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| mordred | SpamapS: that may be true - it's possible you may still want to use a local spooler | 23:22 |
| mordred | but what you don't need is smtp to handle _delivery_ across multi machines | 23:22 |
| SpamapS | jogo: when last I looked there was no python support for running brokerless. Let me re-dive in to that. | 23:22 |
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| SpamapS | mordred: smtp is probably the wrong term. MDA? | 23:23 |
| SpamapS | MTA? | 23:23 |
| mordred | yah. MTA I believe | 23:23 |
| mordred | so - yeah - you may want an exim as part of the deploy - but not beause you want to send internet mail with it | 23:23 |
| mordred | it's that part which I think is the conceptual blocker for most folks | 23:23 |
| mordred | I remember consulting to an MMO a few years ago | 23:23 |
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| mordred | and tey were developing an email like system for in-game messaging on top of mysql | 23:23 |
| mordred | I told them to just use email | 23:24 |
| mordred | but not make it actually routable :) | 23:24 |
| mordred | they couldn't quite divorce themselves from fear of spam | 23:24 |
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| SpamapS | jogo: right, still that way. So there's no matchmaker for amqp 1.0. If you have no broker, you have to bolt matchmaking on top. | 23:25 |
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| mordred | flaper87: maybe you and I sit down fora day in one of the cities in europe while I'm there and knock out a POC | 23:25 |
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| SpamapS | mordred: well the reality is that if you have an inbox, you have the possibility of unwanted messages piling up. :-/ | 23:25 |
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| mordred | SpamapS: you do indeed | 23:26 |
| dstufft | email is pretty bad | 23:26 |
| mordred | SpamapS: but thats if you use it like email | 23:26 |
| dstufft | too bad everything else is worse | 23:26 |
| mordred | dstufft: :) | 23:26 |
| mordred | SpamapS: imap supports shared folders | 23:26 |
| SpamapS | I feel like what most of the use cases want is either logging, or realtime RPC. | 23:26 |
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| SpamapS | mordred: indeed, have used them in such capacity before. | 23:26 |
| mordred | SpamapS: yes. I agree. those should all be solved with the appropriate tech :) | 23:27 |
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| jogo | SpamapS: what about https://qpid.apache.org/proton/ ? that is what redhat was pushing at one point | 23:28 |
| jogo | I guess you still need a matchmaker of sorts | 23:28 |
| SpamapS | jogo: you still need exactly a matchmaker. | 23:29 |
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| SpamapS | Part of what people like about the broker is that they don't have to think about 2-way connections to all hosts. | 23:29 |
| lifeless | g-r reviewers, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/183930/ is +2 worthy please | 23:29 |
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| jogo | so I think the answer is broker+brokerless in general | 23:30 |
| lifeless | SpamapS: instead of which they get a ginormous SPOF | 23:30 |
| * jogo runs away and works on his presentation | 23:30 | |
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| lifeless | SpamapS: I'm not saying you're wrong, just that its a demonstrably poor tradeoff | 23:30 |
| clarkb | ya but network security rules ... | 23:31 |
| SpamapS | You say SPOF, I say HA cluster? | 23:31 |
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| lifeless | clarkb: are doable; tunnelled mesh bidi over a broker is still bidi | 23:31 |
| lifeless | clarkb: any sane security expert will treat them equivalently | 23:31 |
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| SpamapS | I didn't really mean security. Just routing, addressability, etc. | 23:37 |
| SpamapS | security is just an extra set of rigidity that hits all of those. | 23:37 |
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| SpamapS | Anyway, I'm in the "brokers are useful only when you need to measure queue length" camp. The complexity involved with discovery is pretty straight forward to solve, and quite a bit more straight forward than scaling brokers. | 23:39 |
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| SpamapS | also brokerless can be made to work through proxies for the cases where security does not like direct connections between peers. | 23:40 |
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