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| yjiang5 | boris-42: hi | 15:55 |
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| boris-42 | yjiang5 hi | 20:48 |
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| henrynash | any one on who knows sqlalchemy/SQL well? | 23:10 |
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| morganfainberg | henrynash: i can try to help, but no guarantee that i know enough about SQLalchemy et al | 23:22 |
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| henrynash | morganfainberg: thx…I just found my problem….was confused by how sqlalchemy was turning what I thought was a simple WHERE clause into supplying the attributes late in the process | 23:23 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash: ah. | 23:23 |
| henrynash | morganfainberg: …but managed to get my head round it in the end….thx | 23:24 |
| morganfainberg | henrynash: sometimes that can be a bit confusing. sqlalchemy makes sql hard to follow soemtimes :P | 23:24 |
| morganfainberg | glad you figured it out :) | 23:24 |
| henrynash | morganfainberg: thx | 23:24 |
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| jamielennox | morganfainberg: that link is interesting, my understanding is that modules are added to __all__ though, not classes and functions so by having a public function you would expose everything so it would still need tweaking | 23:30 |
| morganfainberg | jamielennox: exactly, but it might be a place to start when considering how to approach the problem. | 23:31 |
| jamielennox | i like the decorator idea, it makes it very explicit | 23:31 |
| jamielennox | i haven't composed a ML topic yet | 23:31 |
| morganfainberg | jamielennox: i was looking into the possiblility of restrincting classes from from mod import * | 23:31 |
| morganfainberg | haven't seen anything too specific on it yet, it might work just like __all__ though | 23:32 |
| jamielennox | well import * is against the pep8 chck anyway i think | 23:32 |
| morganfainberg | i'll do some tests a little later today | 23:32 |
| morganfainberg | jamielennox: that doesn't stop people from doing it | 23:32 |
| morganfainberg | or in __init__.py issuing a #noqa flake8 | 23:32 |
| morganfainberg | (we do it some in the __init__.pys) and it might make sure namespaces don't leak things we don't want exposed (i'm thinking more keystone proper in this case than say keystoneclient) | 23:33 |
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| jamielennox | i know, makes it at least partially there fault though | 23:33 |
| lifeless | jamielennox: __all__ is for symbols - it can be modules, packages, classes, functions, constants whatever. | 23:33 |
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| morganfainberg | lifeless: lifeless in for the information! nice. | 23:33 |
| lifeless | jamielennox: it just advises what the interface is. | 23:33 |
| jamielennox | lifeless: really, that's interesting - to the point where you can have a private/public mix? | 23:33 |
| jamielennox | within the same class? | 23:34 |
| morganfainberg | jamielennox: i think that requires an extra abstraction layer, actually. | 23:34 |
| morganfainberg | in a class, you'd use the _<method> nomenclature | 23:34 |
| morganfainberg | or some such | 23:34 |
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| lifeless | jamielennox: __all__ is a module level thing only; I may have misunderstood your question. | 23:34 |
| lifeless | jamielennox: the /contents/ of __all__ is just a list of symbols; the type of those symbols when you look them up in the module can be anything. | 23:35 |
| jamielennox | lifeless: ah ok, yea, that was what i thought. We are looking for a way to do a strict definition in a client lib of public/private classes and functions | 23:35 |
| morganfainberg | lifeless: and it affects the "from module import *" concept, because of the lookup mechanism | 23:35 |
| morganfainberg | lifeless: right? | 23:35 |
| jamielennox | there is the obvious _ prefix | 23:35 |
| lifeless | morganfainberg: from module import * will only import the contents of __all__, if it is defined. | 23:36 |
| morganfainberg | jamielennox: in python nothing is really private… | 23:36 |
| morganfainberg | lifeless: cool, i was understanding that correctly. thanks | 23:36 |
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| lifeless | jamielennox: morganfainberg: pep8 now defines _ as having meaning as far as the standard lib is concerned | 23:36 |
| jamielennox | morganfainberg: i know, but there is the supported API and everything else is at your own risk | 23:36 |
| lifeless | in that anything following the 'is private' convention won't be supported cross-release | 23:36 |
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| lifeless | jamielennox: whats the problem you're trying to solve? | 23:37 |
| morganfainberg | lifeless: good to know that is the "standard" | 23:37 |
| jamielennox | there is a lot of stuff in keystoneclient not explicitly marked private by _ but that has no business being used by clients | 23:37 |
| morganfainberg | lifeless: identifying classes, interfaces, etc that are public vs private in the keystoneclient (e.g. HTTPClient probably shouldn't be consumed by anything except the Client classes) | 23:37 |
| jamielennox | the question is i guess what can we fix now, and how do we more explicity avoid it in the future | 23:38 |
| morganfainberg | and by client classes i mean the top level version Client(). | 23:38 |
| lifeless | so, I've seen many attempts to make this sort of thing hard-and-fast | 23:39 |
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| lifeless | and it usually ends up in tears. | 23:39 |
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| morganfainberg | lifeless: i don | 23:39 |
| morganfainberg | 't expect it to be a hard enforcement | 23:39 |
| lifeless | There *are* things you can use that create proxy objects with C modules driving to force data hiding etc. | 23:39 |
| jamielennox | ahh, let's not | 23:40 |
| lifeless | My usual preference is to use defense in depth: | 23:40 |
| lifeless | - define an __all__ | 23:40 |
| morganfainberg | lifeless: more of a how to identify what we consider "private" and make it more expicit to use (e.g. __all__) | 23:40 |
| lifeless | - document the interface and explicitly say if it's not documented as public, it isn't. | 23:40 |
| lifeless | - sec, ELOCAL< brb | 23:40 |
| morganfainberg | and proper use of _prefix and docstrings | 23:40 |
| jamielennox | the problem i guess is that keystoneclient evolved rather than was planned i think | 23:41 |
| morganfainberg | jamielennox: thats fine, we can start moving towards a more informed design now. I also think that in icehouse your thought on making HTTPClient a consumable by the client _not_ a shared variable baseclass is a good approach. | 23:43 |
| jamielennox | for the record, not my idea, but i agree that we should push it that way | 23:43 |
| morganfainberg | jamielennox: obviously with a compatability layer that warns that this type of use is deprecated (or whatever is required). | 23:43 |
| morganfainberg | jamielennox: couple that with proper use of __all__ i think we can better identify to the developers "this is what you should be using" without doing hard-enforcement (which as lifeless said, will likely end in tears) | 23:44 |
| morganfainberg | oh and of course, docstrings including proper information. | 23:44 |
| lifeless | back | 23:46 |
| lifeless | and yes, _ prefix things that are in a public namespace but not public | 23:46 |
| lifeless | such as private methods on a public class | 23:46 |
| lifeless | I often create a _FOO package and put internals in there | 23:47 |
| lifeless | e.g. in fixtures, 'fixtures._fixtures.popen' is the module that contains the FakePOpen class | 23:47 |
| lifeless | thats a private place for it; so folk can tell not to grab it from where it's defined, but rather from where the docs say to :) | 23:48 |
| jamielennox | smart, technically __all__ would be enough in that case but people would still import it directly | 23:48 |
| jamielennox | for example i'm thinking of keystoneclient.utils, that should be private | 23:49 |
| lifeless | and docstrings | 23:49 |
| lifeless | what else | 23:49 |
| lifeless | an @deprecated decorator is very useful | 23:49 |
| lifeless | for gracefully fixing up legacy/future mistakes | 23:49 |
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