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| diablo_rojo_phon | So today I learned that when pushing a practice patch to the sanbox and linking to the dev storyboard..it doesn't work. It links to real storyboard instead of dev storyboard. | 12:44 |
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| Zara | that will be because the plugin is in gerrit, not in storyboard itself | 12:46 |
| Zara | and it doesn't have different keywords for different storyboard instances | 12:46 |
| Zara | it picks up on the 'story'/'task' keywords and then just uses those for whatever instance of storyboard it's configured to work with, aiui | 12:47 |
| SotK | this is correct | 12:47 |
| Zara | iirc the sandbox gerrit is configured to work with storyboard-dev | 12:47 |
| Zara | review-dev, that is | 12:47 |
| diablo_rojo_phon | Also the numbers aren't different. A student linked to a storyboard dev story and it linked to a real story lol | 12:47 |
| SotK | yeah, IDs are currently only unique per-storyboard-instance | 12:48 |
| Zara | https://storyboard-dev.openstack.org/#!/story/18 | 12:50 |
| Zara | is an example of how to use storyboard-dev with review-dev | 12:50 |
| diablo_rojo_phon | Oh cool. Thank you! | 12:53 |
| Zara | np :) | 12:55 |
| Zara | that should work, though it's been a while since I tried it and review-dev is generally less stable, so... good luck? :D | 12:56 |
| Zara | we used that as the test environment for the plugin itself | 12:56 |
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| Zara | heads up that I am likely too distracted to chair this week :/ I also have a lot of patches to review so I'd prefer time for that over a meeting, personally | 18:41 |
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| Zara | I get the impression nobody else wants a meeting either | 18:59 |
| * SotK has no desperate desire for one | 18:59 | |
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| fungi | sorry, missed the meeting again anyway | 19:30 |
| fungi | it's been a busy few weeks for infra | 19:30 |
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| fungi | and yeah, review-dev has a tendency to be our proving ground for new gerrit releases and potential configuration changes, so... sometimes not as reliable as production | 19:31 |
| thingee | hey storyboard has there been any effort from people who work on the roadmap to better coordinate with projects on what's potentially coming in queens? annabelleB here is from the OpenStack Foundation and is looking to make this process more sane for the team (her). | 19:32 |
| thingee | I understand not all projects are on storyboard, but curious for the future. | 19:32 |
| annabelleB | thanks thingee! hi all! yes, been poking around Storyboard and thinking about how it can help with the Roadmap creation for Queens on onwards | 19:33 |
| SotK | hi there! | 19:42 |
| persia | annabelleB: Hi. Welcome. | 19:42 |
| SotK | what specifically were you thinking of in terms of roadmap creation? | 19:42 |
| annabelleB | As I’ve been poking through storyboard, I’m having trouble finding a singular view/tag for the anticipated release for a story. This could be user error (me!), but if not, maybe that would be a good feature for the future? | 19:43 |
| persia | annabelleB: As discussed at PTG, I think you want a combination of StoryBoard things (for stuff like release goals, etc.), and adding metainformation in specs, with encouragement for folk to mark up commits with spec meta-info, so you can point at when things started and what was completed from both sides. | 19:43 |
| persia | We've deliberately not added release targeting in storyboard. Some folk are using tags for it, but this isn't either universal or necessarily easy to harvest whilst we still don't have browse-for-tag. | 19:44 |
| annabelleB | Ah. I don’t to take you off course from a deliberate decision. Is there an ETA for the browse-for-tag? | 19:45 |
| SotK | I believe we do have the ability to browse for a tag atm, unless I'm misunderstanding what is wanted | 19:47 |
| persia | Do we? I might be behind :) | 19:47 |
| SotK | yeah, I can do something like https://storyboard.openstack.org/#!/story/list?status=active&tags=low-hanging-fruit | 19:48 |
| SotK | unless you mean the ability to browse through all tags currently in existence, which I am less sure of | 19:48 |
| persia | No, perhaps I'm confusing it with tag-display-links-to-tag-browse or something. | 19:49 |
| SotK | indeed, we are still missing that | 19:49 |
| persia | So, yeah, annabelleB: If you can convince people to release-tag their stories, you could see how complete each was. | 19:49 |
| annabelleB | Is that making a mess of your system, or would that be effective? | 19:50 |
| persia | It presumes a) nobody is abusing the tags, b) all the projects associated with stories have the same release schedule for that story, and c) people actually tag stuff. | 19:50 |
| persia | If you can live with those assumptions, then it should work fine. | 19:51 |
| SotK | I think that that would be correctly using our system rather than making a mess of it | 19:51 |
| persia | Part of why Storyboard doesn't have active release tagging is the nature of how release meetings in Ubuntu used to work, where everyone argued that bug X or blueprint Y belonged in a release without necessarily making any commitment to actually achieving that. Storyboard actively tries to ensure that it is hard to make a blanket statement "something will be done" or "something should be done" in any official way except by actually doing it. | 19:52 |
| persia | But there's absolutely no reason not to use tags for this, as long as people aren't going to be too fussy about them, and we can avoid the arguments that some systems for release tagging caused in the past. | 19:52 |
| annabelleB | why don’t I plan to attend the syd forum session for storyboard and can advocate for responsible release tagging? | 19:53 |
| persia | Note that not every project in OpenStack is migrated to StoryBoard yet. Also note that lots of people do development from specs, rather than just stories. | 19:54 |
| annabelleB | yeah, been bouncing between blueprints and specs currently :) | 19:54 |
| SotK | yeah, I expect the lack of projects will be the main issue with using it for building roadmaps in Queens since I'm not sure how many projects will actually be migrated by then | 19:55 |
| persia | My impression is that specs repos are (too slowly) replacing LP blueprints and StoryBoard is (too slowly) replacing LP bugs for OpenStack. While there is a documented workflow to initiate a new feature in Storyboard (with the first task being "create a spec"), some folk have argued that is needless overhead, and it is easier to just add the spec to the spec repo. I'm not sure they are wrong :) | 19:56 |
| persia | SotK: Did we ever figure out how we might to %complete in story browse (and it is in backlog), or is figuring out how still outstanding? | 19:57 |
| thingee | persia: I don't think specs repo will replace the LP blueprints. Not every blueprint requires a spec. Some ideas don't require discussion so they just skip to blueprint only. | 19:58 |
| persia | thingee: How does that work when LP goes away? | 19:59 |
| thingee | persia: no clue. I haven't spent time with storyboard myself, but I would hope it would support that idea of tracking something without a spec? | 19:59 |
| persia | Storyboard has stories, which have a description, and a list of tasks. They are fairly similar to "bugs" in LP, except there is no limitation on having multiple tasks for the same project in one story. That might do it, although it won't capture any sort of project consensus, etc. | 20:00 |
| persia | They also won't show up differently on a different subsite than any other stories, most of which may be bugs. | 20:00 |
| thingee | persia: when I was PTL of cinder for example if a driver want to implement feature X in the API, there would be a blueprint and it would be set for the release. | 20:01 |
| persia | (to help appreciate my perspective: I've never found LP blueprints useful except for scheduling summits, and they haven't been useful for that since 2011) | 20:01 |
| persia | thingee: Right. Closest Storyboard would have would be to write a story for the feature, and tag it with the release name. | 20:02 |
| thingee | yes all they are tracking. And unfortunately it maybe tribal knowledge of where to look for information on the intentions of the blueprint =/ | 20:02 |
| persia | There is no "drivers" group, so anyone can change the tags at any time. | 20:02 |
| thingee | persia: are acl's coming to support the idea? | 20:03 |
| persia | If you need hard, reliable, PTL-considered information about what things are intended to happen when, I think that has to be specs repos. | 20:03 |
| persia | I don't know of any ACL planned for that. There are ACLs for viewing, but I don't remember any discussion of edit ACLs. | 20:03 |
| thingee | persia: sure, but not every project I believe has a specs repo? | 20:03 |
| SotK | persia: we didn't come up with a good way of doing %complete for stories that I recall | 20:03 |
| persia | SotK: I feared that. Thanks for the confirmation. | 20:04 |
| persia | thingee: True, although that's fairly easily fixed. Similarly, not every project is registed with LP, especially with the new docs changes landing, so not everyone has blueprints. | 20:04 |
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| * persia hopes she comes back | 20:04 | |
| thingee | and not everything is captured on blueprints for the projects that do use LP. Cinder example given :) | 20:05 |
| thingee | heh what a mess | 20:05 |
| persia | Yep :) | 20:05 |
| thingee | I guess it's time for lunch | 20:05 |
| * SotK catches up | 20:06 | |
| SotK | I picked a bad time to be in the middle of cooking | 20:06 |
| persia | You thought you weren't having a meeting :) | 20:06 |
| SotK | indeed | 20:07 |
| SotK | to confirm, there is no plan at the moment for ACLs for editing stories | 20:07 |
| persia | I suspect it makes sense to have wider discussion about what information is interesting to track, and where/how it ought be tracked. | 20:08 |
| SotK | I agree | 20:08 |
| persia | I don't like the idea of not allowing any member of the public to report an issue and tag it if asked. Conversely, I appreciate the need for a PTL to be able to reliably identify what are the priorities for a release, and measure progress against it. | 20:08 |
| SotK | I'm not certain I particularly like the idea of ACLs for stories | 20:09 |
| Zara | if it's just about prioritizing existing stories, there are ACLs for worklists | 20:09 |
| * persia is regretting the decision to take holiday instead of going to Sydney: that might have been a reasonable place for the discussion. | 20:09 | |
| SotK | there was previously thought about "protected" tags that can only be set by specific teams, that could perhaps be relevant here | 20:09 |
| persia | Zara: So you think the answer might be "PTL creates a worklist for the release"? | 20:09 |
| * persia doesn't like "protected tags" either | 20:10 | |
| SotK | but yeah, I would expect a worklist or board to be used for this | 20:10 |
| Zara | I think that would work though it hasn't been trialled | 20:10 |
| Zara | + boards have due dates | 20:10 |
| Zara | might be possible to target those to release dates | 20:10 |
| SotK | indeed | 20:11 |
| persia | My understanding was that things dropped off a worklist when they were complete. Is this correct? If so, does that make it hard to figure out what happened? | 20:11 |
| * persia likes the idea of using due dates for release marking | 20:11 | |
| Zara | I don't think things drop off unless you tell them to | 20:11 |
| SotK | persia: things drop off an automatic worklist when they are complete iff the filters are set to only include active stories | 20:11 |
| Zara | yep | 20:11 |
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| SotK | things never drop off manual worklists unless you do it manually | 20:11 |
| persia | Ah, so annabelleB could look up the PTL-managed "official project worklist for release X", and get a good understanding of what got done and what didn't get done? | 20:12 |
| persia | Are due dates a boards-only thing, or do they also work for worklists? | 20:12 |
| Zara | oh and iirc due dates only appear in boards, not worklists so you'd have a board with one worklist for a use case where you wanted some due dates in a worklist. or have 2 lists, 1: 'done' 2: 'not done yet' | 20:13 |
| Zara | drag between them. | 20:13 |
| Zara | since you'd need that to see what did and didn't get done anyway unless you want to click on each item to see the status | 20:13 |
| Zara | (drag or filter, that is) | 20:13 |
| SotK | persia: yes, that is how I would envision this working | 20:14 |
| persia | That sounds like a good model. And we do have ACLs for boards, so the PTL could manage the ACL to include only drivers. | 20:14 |
| SotK | it strikes me that due dates don't work with automatic worklists | 20:14 |
| persia | annabelleB: So, not tags then :) Does the above make sense, or do you need a full review? | 20:14 |
| SotK | which is a little suboptimal perhaps | 20:14 |
| SotK | one could use a script to populate the board though, similar to the zuulv3 one | 20:14 |
| persia | I'm not sure I'd like the idea of an automatic worklist telling me X is due without having manually agreed to that (or had someone I delegated to make that decision) | 20:15 |
| annabelleB | persia: I think I need to familiarize myself with storyboard a bit more to fully grasp the worklist/boards/stories | 20:15 |
| Zara | SotK: oh cool, I was about to say that's a tricky problem but I think a script like that would solve it | 20:15 |
| persia | zuul's script is probably a good place to start, really. | 20:15 |
| persia | Is that running in infra somewhere, or running private? | 20:15 |
| SotK | I was envisioning a script like zuul's to populate an "incoming" or similar lane, allowing the PTL to assign due dates and then perhaps move cards to arrange things in a way that makes sense to them in other lanes | 20:16 |
| persia | This sounds like a sensible workflow. | 20:17 |
| SotK | persia: I'm not entirely sure, you'd need to ask the relevant folk | 20:17 |
| persia | I doubt there is time to prepare a walkthrough of how that would work for Forum, but maybe next PTG? | 20:17 |
| SotK | next PTG sounds plausible | 20:18 |
| thingee | persia: +1 | 20:18 |
| persia | thingee: For clarity, although we've described a system above, there's no barrier to an alternate, revolution-inspired drivers team setting entirely different goals than the PTL on a separate board, and then trying to get their board clear before the PTL board, so the ACLs don't block people from doing thigns (but I think this gets the base workflow you want in non-contentious cases). | 20:20 |
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