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| Zara | morning storyboard | 10:05 |
|---|---|---|
| pedroalvarez | o/ | 10:06 |
| Zara | betherly: thanks for attending virtually yest, and sorry because I asked you to and then was completely unable to stay in contact! at least I now know next time we need to nominate someone to keep irc updated and I can't do it. | 10:07 |
| Zara | this is the fanciest ascii cake I can find on the internet, btw, as promised! | 10:09 |
| Zara | * * | 10:09 |
| Zara | * | 10:09 |
| Zara | * * | 10:09 |
| Zara | * | 10:09 |
| Zara | ( ) | 10:09 |
| Zara | ) (*) (*) ( | 10:09 |
| Zara | * (*) | | (*) | 10:09 |
| Zara | | |~| |~| | * | 10:09 |
| Zara | |~| | | | | |~| | 10:09 |
| Zara | | | | | | | | | | 10:09 |
| Zara | ,| |a@@@@| |@@@@@@@@@@@| |@@@@a| |. | 10:09 |
| Zara | .,a@@@| |@@@@@| |@@@@@@@@@@@| |@@@@@| |@@@@a,. | 10:09 |
| Zara | ,a@@@@@@| |@@@@@@@@@@@@.@@@@@@@@@@@@@@| |@@@@@@@a, | 10:09 |
| Zara | a@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@' . `@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@a | 10:09 |
| Zara | ;`@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@' . `@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@'; | 10:09 |
| Zara | ;@@@`@@@@@@@@@@@@@' . `@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@'@@@; | 10:09 |
| Zara | ;@@@;,.aaaaaaaaaa . aaaaa,,aaaaaaa,;@@@; | 10:09 |
| Zara | ;;@;;;;@@@@@@@@;@ @.@ ;@@@;;;@@@@@@;;;;@@; | 10:09 |
| Zara | ;;;;;;;@@@@;@@;;@ @@ . @@ ;;@;;;;@@;@@@;;;;;;; | 10:09 |
| Zara | ;;;;;;;;@@;;;;;;; @@ . @@ ;;;;;;;;;;;@@;;;;@;; | 10:09 |
| Zara | ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;@@ . @@;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;@@@; | 10:09 |
| Zara | ,%%%;;;;;;;;@;;;;;;;; . ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;@@;;%%%, | 10:09 |
| Zara | .%%%%%%;;;;;;;@@;;;;;;;; ,%%%, ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;%%%%%%, | 10:09 |
| Zara | .%%%%%%%;;;;;;;@@;;;;;;;; ,%%%%%%%, ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;%%%%%%%, | 10:10 |
| Zara | %%%%%%%%`;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; %%%%%%%%%%% ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;'%%%%%%%% | 10:10 |
| Zara | %%%%%%%%%%%%`;;;;;;;;;;;;,%%%%%%%%%%%%%,;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;'%%%%%%%%%%%% | 10:10 |
| Zara | `%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%,,,,,,,%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%,,,,,,,%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%' | 10:10 |
| Zara | `%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%' | 10:10 |
| Zara | `%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%' | 10:10 |
| Zara | """"""""""""""`,,,,,,,,,'""""""""""""""""" | 10:10 |
| Zara | `%%%%%%%' | 10:10 |
| Zara | `%%%%%' | 10:10 |
| Zara | %%% Susie Oviatt | 10:10 |
| Zara | %%%%% | 10:10 |
| Zara | .,%%%%%%%,. | 10:10 |
| Zara | ,%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%, | 10:10 |
| Zara | so there you go! | 10:10 |
| Zara | (also, I have no backscroll for any private messages or messages in channels sent between about 6pm and 8pm last night) | 10:11 |
| Zara | (just a general fyi) | 10:12 |
| Zara | anteaya: thank you so much for attending yesterday! I think you're fantastic at moderating a discussion. | 10:14 |
| betherly | wowsers | 10:24 |
| betherly | that is a fancy cake :D | 10:24 |
| betherly | it doesnt taste great though | 10:25 |
| Zara | oh well, if you've just bitten into your screen, you're probably now facing worse problems than the taste of the cake. | 10:28 |
| betherly | indeed :p | 10:28 |
| Zara | please let me know if there's anything I missed yesterday. I saw irc a bit at lunch, and sometimes glanced at it when people told me they linked things. | 10:30 |
| Zara | logs didn't suggest anything but I might've missed something. | 10:30 |
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| SotK | we really need to be able to edit comments on StoryBoard | 10:53 |
| betherly | mentioned stuff re ux usage at about 11:30 yesterday | 10:54 |
| betherly | but nothing urgent | 10:54 |
| betherly | looking forward to meeting up in person | 10:55 |
| Zara | ahh, we did reply to that I think | 10:57 |
| * Zara is looking at logs now | 10:57 | |
| Zara | at about half 3ish | 10:58 |
| Zara | was there anything we didn't cover that we should have? | 10:58 |
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| betherly | oh woops! sorry i missed the response! | 11:04 |
| betherly | no thats helpful | 11:04 |
| Zara | \o/ | 11:04 |
| Zara | betherly: what information would it be useful for you to have before an in-person meetup? | 11:04 |
| Zara | eg: should I put together a list of ux problems we'd like to solve and then see how it overlaps with your own? | 11:05 |
| betherly | that sounds good to me. but tbh i think i just need to go through documentation and get ready personally | 11:05 |
| betherly | when are you thinking would be good? | 11:05 |
| Zara | I think I'm available whenever. earlier rather than later makes sense, so I'd like to aim for sometime week of 29th | 11:08 |
| Zara | I'd need to confirm this with employer etc but that should be fine as long as I have a clear idea of goals | 11:08 |
| Zara | (and the value of those, hah) | 11:09 |
| Zara | (but afaict 'those annoying ui things in storyboard? someone knows what they are and is working on them' is a valuable goal, so should be fine.) | 11:12 |
| persia | Yesterday, we discussed a possible next meetup in May. I've checked for potential conflicts, and found three: ApacheCon (people are likely busy 8-14 May), OSCON (people are likely busy 14-21 May), and pycon (people are likely busy 27 May to 6 June). | 11:17 |
| persia | That leaves 22-25 May, if we want to avoid the Saturday. | 11:18 |
| persia | Anyway, just input for the discussion at the meeting on Wednesday. | 11:18 |
| Zara | thanks. I'll note that the above is a separate meetup to the meetup we were just discussing in-channel | 11:19 |
| Zara | just so that's clear | 11:19 |
| persia | Heh, right :) Sorry about the timing. | 11:28 |
| Zara | hehe | 11:29 |
| Zara | we talked about search behaviour vs appearance (and many, many other things). This is a patch to make the appearance match up better with the behaviour: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/278987/ . it doesn't change the behavior at all; I think it helps us see what the current behaviour is. | 11:43 |
| betherly | oh awesome ok | 12:04 |
| Zara | (will be afk for 10ish mins) | 12:10 |
| * SotK finally finishes writing up his thoughts and understanding of search in the comments here: https://storyboard.openstack.org/#!/story/2000402 | 12:17 | |
| SotK | tl;dr: I think most of the confusion comes from the fact that there are two different behaviours (search and browse) which look *exactly* the same in the UI, and break when used together (which is possible in the UI) | 12:19 |
| Zara | ahhh, 401, my old nemesis | 12:25 |
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| * Zara comments on search | 13:03 | |
| Zara | added a little bit in response to proposed fix for 1) | 13:16 |
| * SotK replies also | 13:25 | |
| Zara | ahh, that clears it up, I didn't realise you meant the page listing results to be the same as a page where a user could refine their search | 13:34 |
| Zara | I think we agree then | 13:34 |
| Zara | s/page/view gah | 13:34 |
| * Zara is trying to use correct angular terminology and failing horribly | 13:34 | |
| * SotK fails at that too, I think my super long comments used both at different points :) | 13:35 | |
| Zara | same, I'm not fussed if we have a common language, however woolly, just a bit unfair on visitors. though given most of openstack probably thinks in terms of pages, too, it's probably okay xD | 13:36 |
| SotK | yeah, I think going to the current "search view" is the right thing, just that at the moment that "search view" is completely unusable when you have more than one word in your search term (especially if one is infra) or if there are a lot of results | 13:36 |
| SotK | using fulltext search in natural language mode is also the reason why searching for "infra-cloud" is useless too, because MySQL defines "words" as "any sequence of letters, digits, or underscores, which may include apostrophes iff they aren't adjacent to another apostrophe" | 13:39 |
| SotK | so searching for "infra-cloud" actually looks for "infra" and "cloud" | 13:39 |
| Zara | yeah agree. also WHAT re: mysql (btw, tangential, but I don't think we should see 'gerrit does filtering search in an annoying way' as proof that it can't be done well, but I don't feel confident that we'll personally find a nice way to lay it out, and I'd rather not make this harder than it has to be.) | 13:40 |
| Zara | quotation marks are probably the most common search shorthand afaik. | 13:40 |
| Zara | gah. | 13:41 |
| Zara | is there some other mode we can use? | 13:41 |
| Zara | that defines 'words' differently? | 13:41 |
| Zara | https://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.5/en/fulltext-boolean.html | 13:42 |
| Zara | hm | 13:42 |
| SotK | we should probably be using boolean search mode, I don't really know why we use natural language | 13:43 |
| SotK | heh, snap | 13:43 |
| Zara | :D | 13:43 |
| Zara | yup | 13:43 |
| Zara | that would solve a ton of problems | 13:43 |
| * SotK assumes there is some historical reason that we should learn about | 13:43 | |
| Zara | be interesting to see which it would introduce | 13:43 |
| Zara | snap | 13:43 |
| Zara | again | 13:43 |
| Zara | hahaha | 13:43 |
| Zara | seems natural language is the default | 13:47 |
| persia | boolean used to be very popular, until Google disabled it based on many people not understanding it, after which everyone else wants it to be magic, rather than boolean | 13:48 |
| Zara | hm, I use boolean conventions in google searches all the time; what's going on there? | 13:49 |
| * SotK does too | 13:50 | |
| persia | I don't know. At one point, google had a filter that tossed out those words, during transition. Maybe they added them back, and didn't announce it (or at least not somewhere I was consuming at the time) | 13:50 |
| persia | That said, my experience is that google isn't very good at understanding "NOT" or "XOR", but it may just be my experience. | 13:51 |
| Zara | ah, I don't use those; I mainly use '-', '+' and '""' | 13:52 |
| SotK | https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/2466433 | 13:53 |
| Zara | "If we don't think the punctuation will give you better results, you'll see suggested results for that search without punctuation." mysterious | 13:53 |
| Zara | I think in practice that happens when your search returns no results | 13:54 |
| Zara | and then the results sans quotation marks (or whatever) are displayed after a note that you didn't get any results | 13:54 |
| Zara | so maybe it does a fulltext only after the boolean fails. idk | 13:54 |
| Zara | s/fails/returns no results | 13:54 |
| * Zara checks and yup, that's what happens | 13:55 | |
| Zara | errrr, behaviour-wise | 13:55 |
| Zara | Idk about what google's actually doing. | 13:56 |
| * Zara decides she's confused that enough, and shushes | 13:56 | |
| * SotK thinks natural language search might be alright some of the time actually | 14:00 | |
| SotK | I've always found it useless because "boards" matches everything that says "storyboard" | 14:01 |
| Zara | ahahaha | 14:01 |
| SotK | and "infra" matches almost the entire database it seems | 14:01 |
| Zara | afaict it's only useful when you have almost 0 idea what you're searching for | 14:01 |
| Zara | could be useful if you wanted to match the entire database | 14:02 |
| SotK | I think the main problem with it is that you can't filter as well, so the lack of preciseness is frustrating | 14:02 |
| SotK | (eg, searching for "worklists" is useful, since its not a very ambiguous term in our dataset) | 14:03 |
| Zara | yeah, natural language is itself ambiguous though. :/ | 14:03 |
| SotK | (but "infra-cloud" is madness, because almost everything matches "infra" and a lot of stuff matches "cloud") | 14:03 |
| * SotK expects it works for folk like google because of other tracking data they can use to target their results | 14:05 | |
| Zara | heh, tried changing mode on my test instance to boolean, but I don't think my dataset is going to be useful | 14:05 |
| Zara | (also not convinced I changed mode right) | 14:05 |
| SotK | without trying, I'd expect all you need to do is change the mode in storyboard/api/v1/search/sqlalchemy_impl.py | 14:06 |
| Zara | yeah, that's what I did | 14:07 |
| Zara | cool | 14:07 |
| Zara | I'll try changing it back again and see if things change... | 14:07 |
| Zara | :q | 14:07 |
| Zara | :D | 14:08 |
| Zara | hm, search on project groups does something weird | 14:08 |
| Zara | (sometimes I got results which said only project groups matched, but there was nothing in their titles or descriptions to match) | 14:09 |
| Zara | so if there was a match, I would assume it was in a story or project within the group | 14:09 |
| Zara | BUT I was getting no results for stories or projects | 14:09 |
| Zara | so :/ | 14:09 |
| SotK | o.o | 14:10 |
| SotK | was there anything in the titles that "almost matched"? | 14:10 |
| Zara | idk how it would decide what 'almost matched', tbh | 14:12 |
| Zara | (I now have a phrase to test boolean search with on my instance, testing now...) | 14:12 |
| Zara | hm, doesn't seem to make a difference | 14:14 |
| Zara | okay, + and "" don't seem to work for me. - does. | 14:15 |
| Zara | so possibly it's working correctly but we can't see the bit in the returned result that corresponds to the relevant bit in the db row | 14:17 |
| Zara | or possibly it's not working fully | 14:17 |
| Zara | it *seems* to work for project descriptions as expected, but not for story descriptions | 14:19 |
| Zara | ( "" also works) | 14:20 |
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| openstackgerrit | Zara proposed openstack-infra/storyboard: Change MySQL search mode to 'boolean' https://review.openstack.org/281890 | 14:40 |
| Zara | still seems better than alternative. best tested on a storyboard with a better dataset than mine | 14:40 |
| Zara | if we can test it on the storyboard instance with the s.o.o data, ace | 14:41 |
| SotK | we should grab a dump of the production database and test it on there | 14:41 |
| SotK | snap | 14:41 |
| Zara | ahaha | 14:41 |
| Zara | WE ARE THE BEST TEAM | 14:41 |
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| Zara | is this bit of old user instructions correct? | 14:47 |
| Zara | 2. By default Storyboard will use SQLite driver which is suitable only for | 14:47 |
| Zara | development mode. Storyboard only supports MySQL, to install MySQL driver | 14:47 |
| Zara | execute:: | 14:47 |
| Zara | $ pip install MySQL-python | 14:47 |
| Zara | (I'm updating docs now) | 14:47 |
| * SotK doesn't think so | 14:48 | |
| Zara | \o/ | 14:48 |
| SotK | yeah, we don't even use MySQL-python any more | 14:49 |
| Zara | is there an alternative step we know we should replace that with | 14:50 |
| Zara | or should I just delete it and go with 'TODO' | 14:50 |
| Zara | (as I've done for the 'install storyboard' for now) | 14:50 |
| SotK | I don't know if it even falls back to SQLite anymore, so best to put TODO or try it and see | 14:51 |
| Zara | yeah, the only thing I'm sure of in that section is that sb only supports Mysql. I wouldn't feel confident giving any specific instructions there :/ | 14:52 |
| Zara | It is recommended to use Apache+mod_wsgi for production installation. | 14:54 |
| Zara | ^ anyone know about that? | 14:54 |
| Zara | I have no knowledge of who recommended or when. | 14:54 |
| Zara | or why | 14:54 |
| Zara | that doesn't mean it's wrong, just that I don't know yet. | 14:54 |
| openstackgerrit | Zara proposed openstack-infra/storyboard: Update User Docs https://review.openstack.org/281898 | 15:00 |
| Zara | okay, reading around it looks like the idea of natural language search is so that a user can filter results based on context, where the words themselves are ambiguous. I don't see us making an algorithm for this any time soon. | 15:17 |
| Zara | so I think it's a case of 'you use the words other people use, or you don't find the results, sorry' | 15:18 |
| Zara | in the case of a term that's so ambiguous things like "" and + won't help, I think people will have to use a better term, though I doubt that'll happen frequently here. | 15:21 |
| Zara | because either the context is other words in the query, or something like 'results most frequently clicked on following this search', or 'things this user has searched in the past' | 15:21 |
| Zara | and I doubt we're going to track things like that | 15:21 |
| SotK | aha, so my earlier assumption was correct then | 15:22 |
| SotK | I don't want to track things like that | 15:23 |
| SotK | we should just use boolean mode | 15:23 |
| SotK | boolean mode will be predictable and simple enough for most people I expect | 15:23 |
| SotK | using "" to mean "match this phrase" is a pretty widely understood search idiom afaik | 15:24 |
| Zara | *nod* | 15:24 |
| Zara | there are also a lot of fun explanations online of natural language search that are completely wrong | 15:25 |
| Zara | eg: in a natural lang vs boolean article: 'natural language search lets you type things in any order' okay, that's not a difference tho | 15:25 |
| SotK | :D | 15:26 |
| anteaya | Zara: beautiful cake | 15:31 |
| anteaya | and it was my pleasure, I really enjoyed participating | 15:31 |
| anteaya | I'm looking forward to the next one | 15:32 |
| Zara | \o/ | 15:32 |
| SotK | :) it was great to have your input! | 15:32 |
| anteaya | and thank you for the compliment | 15:32 |
| anteaya | thanks SotK | 15:32 |
| anteaya | it was lovely to be able to hear your thoughts in person | 15:32 |
| anteaya | and it was great to meet pedroalvarez as well | 15:32 |
| anteaya | btw for those who don't know, pedroalvarez has a fantastic smile | 15:33 |
| anteaya | it lights up the room! | 15:33 |
| anteaya | and it is always a pleasure to spend time with you, persia | 15:35 |
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| Zara | anteaya: I think you are very good at keeping a discussion on-track and being firm about boundaries, along with making sure everyone is heard (including reading when people are uneasy about something but might not comment without prompting). | 15:35 |
| Zara | so I think that really helped things run smoothly, so thanks again | 15:35 |
| Zara | (I wonder if codethink's twitter feed has a pic of pedro smiling anywhere... :D ) | 15:37 |
| anteaya | thank you for the feedback on my moderating, I really appreciate it | 15:37 |
| pedroalvarez | anteaya: hah you are lovely :) | 15:38 |
| anteaya | it isn't always possible to stop a group and make sure everyone is included, but it is important to me that I at least try to do so | 15:38 |
| anteaya | pedroalvarez: the feeling is mutual, sir | 15:38 |
| anteaya | :) | 15:38 |
| anteaya | Zara: so I'm glad that felt productive and useful | 15:39 |
| anteaya | so today is my sick day, I was trying to hold off and have tomorrow be my sick day | 15:39 |
| anteaya | but I realized when I woke up that nope today is my sick day | 15:40 |
| Zara | :( | 15:40 |
| anteaya | yeah :( | 15:40 |
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| anteaya | fortunately I'm 2 small blocks from one of my favourite chains so I know they had lots of what I need and they did | 15:40 |
| anteaya | feeling better already | 15:40 |
| anteaya | :) | 15:40 |
| Zara | \o/ I just hope it wasn't because of the cupcakes | 15:41 |
| anteaya | no no no | 15:41 |
| anteaya | the cupcakes were devine | 15:41 |
| anteaya | divine too | 15:42 |
| Zara | heh :) | 15:42 |
| anteaya | the icing was perfect, the cake was lovely and fluffy | 15:42 |
| anteaya | it separated from the paper just right | 15:42 |
| anteaya | the sparkly things in the icing were perfect | 15:42 |
| anteaya | sorry I didn't give cupcake feedback at the time | 15:42 |
| anteaya | but they were really really nice | 15:42 |
| Zara | oh, I meant the scary rainbow cakes; the others looked far less poisonous | 15:43 |
| anteaya | ah | 15:44 |
| anteaya | I'm adverse to bacon myself | 15:44 |
| anteaya | and since in my mind those were the bacon cupcakes | 15:45 |
| anteaya | I did not venture to try them | 15:45 |
| anteaya | though I did admire them | 15:45 |
| * SotK can confirm that they weren't poisonous, and were instead delicious :) | 15:46 | |
| * SotK realises he needs to move all of the permissions-checking functions :( | 15:46 | |
| anteaya | :( | 15:46 |
| anteaya | SotK: what do you mean? | 15:47 |
| Zara | (ah, the 'bacon' was actually these sweets, http://img.tesco.com/Groceries/pi/951/5000358628951/IDShot_540x540.jpg, but I'm relieved there is no chance I have poisoned you) | 15:48 |
| SotK | there is a function in the backend codebase to check if a board/worklist is editable or viewable by the user who sent the request, but now I need it in such a place that I need to move it somewhere more useful than its current file, so I need to do s/editable/boards_api.editable/ and similar in a bunch of places | 15:50 |
| anteaya | Zara: nice, yes you have not poisoned me | 15:51 |
| anteaya | SotK: :( | 15:51 |
| anteaya | but good that you recongize that | 15:52 |
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| anteaya | in my hotel room would the control panel marked air conditioning also mean heat? | 16:04 |
| anteaya | I don't see another control panel marked heat | 16:04 |
| anteaya | but I really don't want air conditioning by mistake | 16:04 |
| Zara | I *think* air conditioning should heat a room if the set temperature is higher than the room's current temperature | 16:05 |
| Zara | I am no expert on hotel air conditioning, though | 16:05 |
| anteaya | I will try | 16:05 |
| anteaya | thanks | 16:05 |
| * Zara eagerly awaits the results of the investigation | 16:05 | |
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| anteaya | you are correct | 16:09 |
| anteaya | however the two ends of the spectrum were marked + and - | 16:09 |
| anteaya | and I wrongly choose + first to mean warm up my room | 16:10 |
| anteaya | and apparently the correct choice is - to mean warm up my room | 16:10 |
| anteaya | so my room is getting warmer now | 16:10 |
| anteaya | \o/ | 16:10 |
| Zara | huh, I would also have chosen + | 16:10 |
| Zara | \o/, anyway | 16:10 |
| anteaya | you also would have been cold first before you were warm | 16:11 |
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| Zara | btw, unlimited pagination has been hanging around for a while | 17:36 |
| Zara | I wonder if it's worth having a meantime hacky 'show 5000000 results' to do the same thing | 17:37 |
| Zara | or if that's just bad practice. | 17:37 |
| SotK | I think we should abandon that patch and do it properly | 17:37 |
| Zara | :) | 17:37 |
| SotK | i.e. "load first few pages, then add a load more button at the bottom" | 17:37 |
| SotK | or auto-load more when the bottom is reached, if its worth it | 17:38 |
| Zara | whichever works; I figured nobody has time to do that atm and the 5000000 would be faster, but I could be wrong on those. | 17:39 |
| * SotK thinks 50000000 would be a bad idea, even 500 is pretty slow | 17:39 | |
| Zara | fair enough | 17:40 |
| Zara | It's been long enough that I'd forgotten why the -1 patch was unsuitable, but actually I think it was just slowness | 17:40 |
| Zara | yup | 17:40 |
| SotK | yeah, and the slowness would only ever get worse | 17:41 |
| Zara | ;_; | 17:44 |
| Zara | 'night! | 18:26 |
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