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| openstackgerrit | junxu proposed openstack/senlin: Fix spelling error for senlin.policy.deletion schema https://review.openstack.org/241922 | 01:07 |
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| elynn | morning | 01:31 |
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| xuhaiwei | morning | 01:49 |
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| Liuqing | morning | 02:06 |
| Liuqing | xuhaiwei，Japan is a crazy country, but i like it.. | 02:07 |
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| xuhaiwei | Liuqing, you felt good here? | 02:12 |
| Liuqing | no, it's a pity | 02:19 |
| xuhaiwei | :) | 02:20 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/senlin: Fix spelling error for senlin.policy.deletion schema https://review.openstack.org/241922 | 06:09 |
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| xuhaiwei | hi everyone, I have sent a mail to openstack-dev mailing list, that is about adding container type node, please feel free to comment on it | 07:26 |
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| elynn | looking | 07:32 |
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| Qiming | curious how magnum guys think about it | 07:45 |
| Qiming | another way to tackle this is to have senlin invoke docker-py directly to create docker clusters | 07:45 |
| xuhaiwei | so in that way, what should be done in Senlin side? | 07:46 |
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| elynn | Seems k8s/swarm has their scaling functions, so this proposal means senlin will talk to k8s/swarm to do scaling? | 07:48 |
| xuhaiwei | yes, not talking to magnum | 07:49 |
| Qiming | k8s has proposals doing container layer scaling, so the feature is not there | 07:51 |
| elynn | o? | 07:51 |
| Qiming | docker swarm doesn't have scaling either I believe, but they claim it can be supported using swarm | 07:51 |
| Qiming | https://github.com/docker/swarm/issues/676 | 07:52 |
| Qiming | the issue 676 is talking about scaling machines though | 07:53 |
| Qiming | I don't think we will take over the scaling of containers themselves | 07:53 |
| Qiming | k8s proposal is here: https://github.com/kubernetes/kubernetes/blob/release-1.0/docs/proposals/autoscaling.md | 07:55 |
| elynn | So adding container support needs to wait for these features go into k8s/swarm? | 07:55 |
| Qiming | scaling interface is tracked here: https://github.com/kubernetes/kubernetes/issues/1629 | 07:56 |
| xuhaiwei | so how do you think senlin should do for support container auto-scaling? | 07:56 |
| Qiming | xuhaiwei, I don't think it is a wise move to compete with k8s/swarm directly on container scaling | 07:57 |
| Qiming | at the bare minimum, we are not there yet | 07:57 |
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| Qiming | however, if you were on the magnum-senlin talk, you will realize that what we proposed is a cross-layer interaction | 07:58 |
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| Qiming | we manage the nodes that are used for running containers | 07:58 |
| Qiming | let the k8s/swarm do their own scaling of containers | 07:58 |
| Qiming | however, when the workload is high, adding more containers won't solve the problem | 07:59 |
| Qiming | we will need to add new nodes (VMs or in future baremetals) | 07:59 |
| Qiming | that is beyond k8s/swarm scope | 07:59 |
| Qiming | it falls in either magnum or senlin | 07:59 |
| Qiming | there are guys from magnum (Ton Ngo, Hongbin Lu, Jay Lau) already signing on an autoscaler feature in magnum | 08:00 |
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| Qiming | in their proposal, senlin will be used as the engine I think | 08:00 |
| xuhaiwei | you mean k8s or docker will use senlin to scale vm and then scale container on the vms? | 08:01 |
| openstackgerrit | Yanyan Hu proposed openstack/senlin: Update TODO/FEATURE item list https://review.openstack.org/240764 | 08:02 |
| Qiming | k8s/docker with do the container layer scaling by themselves | 08:02 |
| Qiming | when scaling the underlying VMs, that's senlin's job | 08:02 |
| Qiming | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/magnum/+spec/two-level-auto-scaling | 08:03 |
| xuhaiwei | what I am confuing is how does senlin communicate to k8s/docker? they call senlin or senlin calls them? | 08:05 |
| Qiming | magnum calls senlin | 08:05 |
| Qiming | if senlin communicates directly to k8s/docker, senlin becomes another magnum | 08:06 |
| Qiming | wondering if that is a wise move either | 08:06 |
| xuhaiwei | that's true | 08:07 |
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| Qiming | I have no problem with replacing magnum | 08:08 |
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| Qiming | but I believe a lot people are gonna challenging you that | 08:08 |
| xuhaiwei | since your words in the senlin design summit, I am always thinking about the posibility | 08:09 |
| Qiming | the potential is there | 08:09 |
| openstackgerrit | Yanyan Hu proposed openstack/senlin: Update TODO/FEATURE item list https://review.openstack.org/240764 | 08:10 |
| xuhaiwei | so the use case demo you held in the summit is not the normal way magnum uses senlin? | 08:11 |
| xuhaiwei | in other words senlin should not do container auto-scaling | 08:11 |
| xuhaiwei | ? | 08:11 |
| Qiming | yes, senlin is not gonna replace k8s | 08:12 |
| Qiming | k8s is already doing container scaling itself, so we don't have a play there, true? | 08:12 |
| Qiming | back to the discussion a few minutes ago | 08:13 |
| Qiming | when running containers on an openstack cloud | 08:13 |
| Qiming | there are two layers of entities to be managed, right? | 08:13 |
| Qiming | the first layer being the containers (or pods) managed by the COEs themselves | 08:14 |
| Qiming | the second layer being the VMs that are nova servers | 08:14 |
| xuhaiwei | yes, should we push magnum to use senlin to do the second layer scaling? | 08:16 |
| Qiming | we have been talking to them since Vancouver | 08:17 |
| Qiming | they don't want to depend on a project on stackforge | 08:17 |
| Qiming | that is the only concern | 08:17 |
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| Qiming | Ton Ngo helped brought up this issue again back in July/August during magnum mid-cycle meetup in CA | 08:18 |
| Qiming | the feedback remains the same | 08:18 |
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| Qiming | this time in tokyo, the issue was raised again, and they are still watching senlin's progress into big tent | 08:19 |
| xuhaiwei | so after senlin got the openstack project title, we should try again | 08:19 |
| Qiming | it is not our job | 08:19 |
| Qiming | we have a lot in our plates already, just look at the TODO.rst and FEATURES.rst | 08:19 |
| Qiming | we would encourage magnum to do this | 08:19 |
| Qiming | after all, senlin provides more flexible APIs for them to manage VM groups, why model that as a Heat stack anyway? | 08:20 |
| Qiming | make senses to you? | 08:20 |
| xuhaiwei | yes, quite make sense | 08:22 |
| Qiming | one of the most dangerous states of a project is that it tries to be a little bit of everything | 08:22 |
| Qiming | to be honest, I'm seeing a lot of that happening again in some projects | 08:22 |
| Qiming | I'm not naming a specific project, but I do see that project scope defined as this: | 08:26 |
| xuhaiwei | yes, got it | 08:27 |
| Qiming | feature1, feature2, autoscaling, autohealing, monitoring, tosca-conformant, security, auditing, notification, ... | 08:28 |
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| yuanying | o_o | 08:29 |
| xuhaiwei | seems many projects want to do autoscaling | 08:29 |
| Qiming | basically, that project is closing its door to collaborate with others | 08:29 |
| Qiming | xuhaiwei, yep, it is about cloud elasticity | 08:30 |
| Qiming | without elasticity, you won't call a group of vms as a cloud | 08:30 |
| xuhaiwei | it snows heavily today in Beijing, do you have problems going home? | 08:30 |
| Qiming | seems it has stopped, won't be a big problem for me | 08:31 |
| Yanyanhu | really big snow | 08:31 |
| openstackgerrit | junxu proposed openstack/senlin: Fix cooldown_inprogress method return reversed values. https://review.openstack.org/242389 | 08:31 |
| yuanying | I think, docker-swarm doesn't have auto-scale function, you think, swarm will support it? | 08:31 |
| xuhaiwei | I have to go to pick up my daughter now | 08:32 |
| xuhaiwei | see you guys, take care | 08:32 |
| Qiming | not sure swarm will do it or not | 08:32 |
| Yanyanhu | xuhaiwei, see u | 08:32 |
| Qiming | imo, it should do, yuanying | 08:32 |
| openstackgerrit | junxu proposed openstack/senlin: Fix cooldown_inprogress method return reversed values. https://review.openstack.org/242389 | 08:33 |
| Qiming | Yanyanhu, in your latest revision, 'oslo.notification' item is gone? | 08:33 |
| Yanyanhu | yes, I think maybe it should be a part of queue/message trigger type support? | 08:33 |
| Qiming | I'm not sure | 08:33 |
| Qiming | don't make decisions this way | 08:33 |
| Qiming | message queue could mean zaqar specifically | 08:34 |
| Qiming | that request was captured from ask.openstack.org, so it is a real requirement | 08:34 |
| Yanyanhu | oh, sorry, now trigger type, should be receiver type | 08:34 |
| Qiming | we even don't have a receiver design at the moment | 08:35 |
| Qiming | we will forget this option soon when we are working on some other more urgent patches | 08:35 |
| Qiming | to be honest, I'm not sure they can be combined into the same abstraction | 08:36 |
| Yanyanhu | hmm, that's true. Will we support the receiving of oslo.notification into the receiver design? | 08:36 |
| Yanyanhu | yes, that's my question | 08:36 |
| Qiming | I don't want to get into that discussion at the moment | 08:36 |
| Qiming | our focus as the first step, is to have a receiver api that is general enough | 08:37 |
| Yanyanhu | ok, I will keep this workitem and to see whether we can combine it work other jobs in future | 08:37 |
| Qiming | when we have bandwidth, we can always revisit this item | 08:37 |
| Qiming | yes, that is what I'm suggesting | 08:37 |
| Qiming | don't throw away something we are not 100% sure yet | 08:38 |
| openstackgerrit | junxu proposed openstack/senlin: Fix cooldown_inprogress method return reversed values. https://review.openstack.org/242389 | 08:38 |
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| Yanyanhu | ok, I see. Keep those things we are not clear in current stage. This is the principle | 08:38 |
| Qiming | right | 08:38 |
| Qiming | we may have to postpone it forever | 08:39 |
| Qiming | that is fine | 08:39 |
| Qiming | :) | 08:39 |
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| Yanyanhu | understand | 08:39 |
| openstackgerrit | Ethan Lynn proposed openstack/python-senlinclient: Add get_file support for senlinclient https://review.openstack.org/239591 | 08:39 |
| Qiming | also, CoreOS based container support | 08:42 |
| Qiming | please keep it there | 08:42 |
| Yanyanhu | ok, and also the container/docker cluster support? | 08:42 |
| Qiming | yes, maybe we can combine them later | 08:42 |
| Yanyanhu | ok | 08:42 |
| Qiming | the reason I'd prefer leave it there is that CoreOS is so special | 08:42 |
| Qiming | we get container support for free | 08:42 |
| Yanyanhu | yes, that's true | 08:42 |
| Qiming | we can have a special profile type for that | 08:42 |
| Yanyanhu | don't need extra service | 08:43 |
| Qiming | or at least an example | 08:43 |
| Qiming | before that happens, we may want to keep it in the list | 08:43 |
| Yanyanhu | ok | 08:44 |
| Qiming | the interaction with containers (so many types of them) is a big problem space | 08:45 |
| Qiming | we may need some time to go through all potential approaches to make things work | 08:45 |
| Qiming | elynn, about #239591 | 08:46 |
| elynn | Hi Qiming | 08:46 |
| Qiming | although I can see get_file will work if we add a 'get_file' function | 08:47 |
| Qiming | I'm still a little bit concerned about this approach | 08:47 |
| Qiming | actually, I dislike the approach in Heat | 08:47 |
| Qiming | it complicates the client code | 08:48 |
| Qiming | the client side, IMO should not do this kind of parsing | 08:48 |
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| Qiming | however, we do need such kind of a functionality to include external files | 08:49 |
| Qiming | or else the readability of the profile may become terrible | 08:49 |
| elynn | yes, it's a compromise | 08:49 |
| Qiming | when I'm reviewing Yanyanhu's patch on TODO/FEATURE | 08:50 |
| openstackgerrit | Yanyan Hu proposed openstack/senlin: Update TODO/FEATURE item list https://review.openstack.org/240764 | 08:50 |
| elynn | To be compatible with heatclient | 08:50 |
| Qiming | I noticed that we have a todo item of adding support to 'template_url' | 08:50 |
| elynn | Otherwise heatclient can not collect all files that senlin needed. | 08:50 |
| Qiming | so I'm wondering whether it makes sense to explicitly spell it out in the profile what the value is | 08:51 |
| Qiming | template_file: random_string_stack.yaml ? | 08:52 |
| Qiming | template_url: http://server/stack.yaml ? | 08:52 |
| openstackgerrit | Yanyan Hu proposed openstack/senlin: Update TODO/FEATURE item list https://review.openstack.org/240764 | 08:52 |
| Qiming | ugly, uh? | 08:52 |
| elynn | I don't get what you mean. | 08:53 |
| Qiming | I was trying to get rid of 'get_file' function | 08:53 |
| Qiming | not sure if it is a good idea though | 08:53 |
| elynn | yea, I don't think 'get_file' is a good idea, since without it senlinclient still works fine. | 08:55 |
| elynn | I'm thinking of an approach to support senlin resources in heat. | 08:55 |
| Qiming | a crazy but valid yaml I wrote before | 08:55 |
| Qiming | env: &ENVIRON1 | 08:55 |
| Qiming | parameters: | 08:55 |
| Qiming | len: 16 | 08:55 |
| Qiming | profiles: | 08:55 |
| Qiming | os.docker: some.path.docker.driver | 08:55 |
| Qiming | # preserve newline | 08:55 |
| Qiming | logo: | | 08:56 |
| Qiming | .-- .-- . . . . . . | 08:56 |
| Qiming | |_ |-- |\| | | |\| | 08:56 |
| Qiming | __| `-- . . L__ _|_ . . | 08:56 |
| Qiming | # don't preserve newline | 08:56 |
| Qiming | description: > | 08:56 |
| Qiming | Some description about | 08:56 |
| Qiming | the usage of the stack | 08:56 |
| Qiming | to be created | 08:56 |
| Qiming | for example | 08:56 |
| Qiming | this line | 08:56 |
| Qiming | back to normal | 08:56 |
| Qiming | type: os.heat.stack | 08:56 |
| Qiming | spec: | 08:56 |
| Qiming | template: !include subdir/subdir/my_stack.yaml | 08:56 |
| Qiming | environment: *ENVIRON1 | 08:56 |
| elynn | Wow, this spec file include so much Logical Operators | 08:57 |
| Qiming | was trying to teach myself some yaml basics | 08:57 |
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| Qiming | not decent, ;) | 08:59 |
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| Qiming | okay, let's go with get_file | 08:59 |
| Qiming | it won't be a surprise for existing heat users | 09:00 |
| elynn | Basically , https://review.openstack.org/239591 should work with https://review.openstack.org/#/c/240179/ , to collect all files that senlin needed files and reassemble profile spec. | 09:00 |
| Qiming | its use case is more than just include a YAML into your profile spec, it can be used for including a script I think | 09:00 |
| Qiming | I see | 09:01 |
| Qiming | let me try clear my mind a little bit | 09:01 |
| elynn | I think when we figure out how to go further in senlinclient , we can still have a chance to modify codes. | 09:01 |
| Qiming | yes | 09:02 |
| Qiming | when senlinclient sends a profile-create request | 09:02 |
| Qiming | there should be no 'get_file' in that request, even the profile is about heat stack, right? | 09:02 |
| elynn | yes | 09:03 |
| Qiming | okay, let's keep this as principle 1 | 09:03 |
| elynn | heat resource will reassemble spec before send a request to senlin API | 09:03 |
| Qiming | pls hold that, it is an implementation specific thing | 09:04 |
| Qiming | when heatclient sends a stack-create request to heat server, the request should contain no 'get_file' key, right? | 09:04 |
| Qiming | or ... we are not sure about the second assumption? | 09:06 |
| elynn | If without get_file support, the spec file pass to senlin resource should contain everything, like https://github.com/lynic/templates/blob/master/senlin/template/senlin-profile.yaml | 09:06 |
| elynn | stack-create request will contain the get_file key | 09:07 |
| Qiming | okay, maybe I have got the point | 09:07 |
| elynn | heatclient can not remove get_file key in nested files. | 09:07 |
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| Qiming | sigh ... | 09:07 |
| Qiming | that is what I hate heat's adhoc extensions | 09:07 |
| Qiming | back to interaction between heat and senlin | 09:08 |
| elynn | It's the hard part to get these two clients consistent. | 09:08 |
| Qiming | when heat sends a profile-create request to senlin, can we avoid include a 'get_file' in that request? | 09:08 |
| Qiming | since the profile is assembled from heat side | 09:09 |
| Qiming | maybe that is doable? | 09:09 |
| elynn | yes, I need to write some codes in senlin resource to reassemble spec, and the requrest send to senlin will still like https://github.com/lynic/templates/blob/master/senlin/template/senlin-profile.yaml | 09:10 |
| Qiming | that one looks good | 09:10 |
| elynn | I still need to convince heat community to let this patch https://review.openstack.org/#/c/240179/ get in after senlinclient support get_file. | 09:11 |
| Qiming | the thing is whether we really want 'get_file' to appear in a request sent from heat to senlin | 09:12 |
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| elynn | from heat to senlin, get_file key will not present. | 09:12 |
| Qiming | if we can avoid that, we don't need to change senlinclient | 09:12 |
| elynn | It will be handle by heat side. | 09:12 |
| Qiming | yes, then, let heat handle it | 09:13 |
| elynn | But the spec used for heat will not be able to handle by senlinclient. | 09:13 |
| elynn | heat guys might say, hey, senlinclient don't support get_file, why do you want https://review.openstack.org/#/c/240179/ in. | 09:14 |
| Qiming | wait ... | 09:14 |
| Qiming | why this is getting so messy ... | 09:16 |
| elynn | Let me explain in paste.openstack.org... | 09:19 |
| Qiming | doesn't matter | 09:20 |
| Qiming | I will try understand this | 09:20 |
| Qiming | don't want to waste your time | 09:21 |
| Qiming | back to the get_file function | 09:21 |
| Qiming | for senlinclient | 09:21 |
| Qiming | maybe it is a good thing to have it | 09:21 |
| Qiming | the only concern I have is that we are again trapped by the heatclient problem ... | 09:22 |
| elynn | http://paste.openstack.org/show/478163/ | 09:22 |
| Qiming | such a spec won't be usable in horizon | 09:22 |
| elynn | Yes, heatclient has much traps in it. | 09:23 |
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| Qiming | so you understand my concern | 09:24 |
| elynn | Or we don't need to support get_file, totally use url instead. | 09:25 |
| Qiming | yep | 09:26 |
| Qiming | the best thing about doing something from scratch is that we can revisit the existing design and see if there are room for improvement | 09:26 |
| elynn | The spec pass to heat will look like http://paste.openstack.org/show/478164/ | 09:27 |
| elynn | Then heat resource will try to download the template contents or directly pass this url to senlin and let senlin handle it. | 09:29 |
| Yanyanhu | don't support get_file means user has to put those files they want to use into a place that can be fetched through http request? | 09:30 |
| Yanyanhu | like github | 09:30 |
| elynn | yes, can't think of a better way... | 09:30 |
| Yanyanhu | could cause inconvenience in some cases I think... | 09:31 |
| Yanyanhu | so heatclient has problem about handling 'get_file' defined in nested stack? | 09:34 |
| elynn | No | 09:35 |
| Yanyanhu | nested template | 09:35 |
| elynn | heatclient will parse the yaml header, and only analyse the template with 'heat_template_version' key. | 09:35 |
| elynn | a spec file doesn't have one. | 09:35 |
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| elynn | https://github.com/openstack/python-heatclient/blob/master/heatclient/common/template_format.py#L65-L68 | 09:36 |
| elynn | So heatclient will not retrieve the get_file in senlin spec file. | 09:36 |
| elynn | Patch https://review.openstack.org/#/c/240179/ removes that constraint, and let heatclient retrieve get_file's value in any yaml file. | 09:37 |
| Qiming | yes, I noticed that patch | 09:37 |
| Qiming | we have to illustrate the use case | 09:38 |
| Yanyanhu | I see, that's why steve baker said heatclient doesn't have responsibility to handle get_file in a spec which is not a 'heat templated' | 09:38 |
| Yanyanhu | template | 09:38 |
| Qiming | yes | 09:38 |
| Qiming | we may have profile specs that are not heat templates send to heatclient | 09:39 |
| Yanyanhu | if we don't support get_file in senlin | 09:41 |
| elynn | So what do you think? Get patch https://review.openstack.org/#/c/240179/ land in heat or just support url instead of get_file? | 09:41 |
| elynn | Don't support get_file in senlinclient won't cause any problem. | 09:42 |
| elynn | Just the spec use for heat may not be supported by senlin. | 09:42 |
| Qiming | we do support get_file in senlinclient | 09:43 |
| elynn | I hate get_file...sigh... | 09:43 |
| Qiming | the implementation can be improved for sure | 09:44 |
| Qiming | I think we need to dig a little more into the problem | 09:44 |
| Qiming | there is no easy answer | 09:44 |
| Qiming | we borrow the 'get_file' processing logic by invoking heatclient utils from senlinclient | 09:45 |
| Yanyanhu | ok, I need to read the code to better understand it, I'm a little confused now... | 09:45 |
| Qiming | right, I'm having problem to draw the whole picture at the moment, will do so later | 09:45 |
| elynn | The initial codes for senlin resources are upload to https://github.com/lynic/templates/tree/master/senlin/heat_resource, it won't need get_file support, feel free to try. | 09:46 |
| Qiming | okay, thanks, will do it | 09:46 |
| Yanyanhu | me too :) | 09:47 |
| Qiming | oh, boy, you have profile and cluster all implemented?!! | 09:47 |
| Yanyanhu | and event asg :) | 09:47 |
| Yanyanhu | even | 09:48 |
| elynn | asg haven't implemented... | 09:49 |
| elynn | Just want to try, but got no time.. | 09:49 |
| Qiming | I see that is a clone of resource group | 09:49 |
| elynn | And not sure that handle_update for cluster is correct, still need more test. | 09:50 |
| Qiming | looks like the logic is correct | 09:51 |
| Qiming | Yanyanhu, the client interface after revision works correctly now? | 09:52 |
| Yanyanhu | yes, I think so. | 09:53 |
| Qiming | so we are ready to bump the version | 09:53 |
| Yanyanhu | ok | 09:53 |
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| openstackgerrit | Qiming Teng proposed openstack/python-senlinclient: Remove unused methods in client module https://review.openstack.org/242415 | 10:01 |
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| openstackgerrit | Liuqing Jing proposed openstack/senlin-dashboard: Add node detail test https://review.openstack.org/242492 | 14:08 |
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