| *** bauzas_ is now known as bauzas | 10:12 | |
| d1nuc0m | Hi guys, I've tried to create an updated awesome list for Puppet, let me know what do you think about it https://github.com/d1nuc0m/awesome-puppet | 12:53 |
|---|---|---|
| d1nuc0m | (sorry, wrong topic) | 12:54 |
| gtema | gouthamr: I would like to add short topic to agenda today (sadly not discussed during PTG): openstackdocstheme needs cores and eventually should be moved under TC projects | 17:46 |
| gouthamr | gtema++ thanks, yes, please do after the OpenStack/VMWare WG topic | 17:47 |
| gouthamr | clarkb: would you like to discuss the third party CI topic today as well? | 17:47 |
| gtema | Sure | 17:48 |
| clarkb | gouthamr: yes | 17:48 |
| gmann | I think 3rd party CI might need more participant? announcing it in advance is better | 17:48 |
| gmann | that is imp one | 17:48 |
| gouthamr | yes, you could have folks attending.. maybe we can bring up the premise during the meeting and discuss next week as well? | 17:50 |
| clarkb | ya I think the more improtant thing is to get the word out | 17:52 |
| clarkb | I don't expect solutions | 17:53 |
| clarkb | I just want peopel to be aware of the need there | 17:53 |
| gouthamr | ack ty | 17:58 |
| gouthamr | tc-members: gentle reminder that today's meeting is a Video+IRC meeting, and it starts here and on Zoom simultaneously in ~59 minutes: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 18:01 |
| gmann | gouthamr: its now | 18:01 |
| gouthamr | OMG | 18:02 |
| JayF | DST is a mean, mean concept | 18:02 |
| fungi | gouthamr: 18:00 utc (it's now 18:02 utc) | 18:02 |
| spotz[m] | Looking for the link! | 18:03 |
| cardoe | er | 18:03 |
| gmann | spotz[m]: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 18:03 |
| spotz[m] | got it:) | 18:04 |
| gouthamr | please excuse my publicly visible embarassment | 18:04 |
| gouthamr | #startmeeting tc | 18:04 |
| opendevmeet | Meeting started Tue Nov 5 18:04:26 2024 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is gouthamr. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:04 |
| opendevmeet | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:04 |
| opendevmeet | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 18:04 |
| gouthamr | #info Today's meeting is being held primarily via video call. Action items and meeting minutes will be documented in IRC but for a full replay of the meeting, please visit the OpenStack TC youtube channel, where the recording will be uploaded soon. | 18:04 |
| gouthamr | Welcome to the weekly meeting of the OpenStack Technical Committee. A reminder that this meeting is held under the OpenInfra Code of Conduct available at https://openinfra.dev/legal/code-of-conduct. | 18:05 |
| gouthamr | The agenda is here: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee#Next_Meeting | 18:07 |
| gouthamr | #topic Roll Call | 18:07 |
| gmann | o/ | 18:07 |
| gtema | o/ | 18:07 |
| bauzas | \o | 18:07 |
| noonedeadpunk | o/ | 18:07 |
| slaweq | o/ | 18:07 |
| aprice[m] | o/ | 18:07 |
| spotz[m] | \o/ | 18:07 |
| clarkb | o/ | 18:07 |
| bauzas | spotz[m]: both left and right-handed ? whoa | 18:07 |
| spotz[m] | I'm so exciting it's meeting time I'm doing the wave:) | 18:08 |
| gouthamr | #topic Last Week's AIs | 18:08 |
| gouthamr | Debug Quota Test Failures in SDK Job (gmann) | 18:09 |
| gouthamr | this is tracking increasing cross project tests in the openstacksdk | 18:10 |
| gouthamr | gmann will follow up next week | 18:10 |
| gouthamr | next AI: Monitor Translation Automation and Facilitate Weblate Transition | 18:10 |
| gouthamr | 18:10 | |
| gouthamr | the action was to coordinate with i18n team for necessary infra support and start a mailing list (ML) discussion if further issues arise | 18:10 |
| gouthamr | ianychoi and SeongsooCho[m] are working on these, and we should hear from them regarding next steps | 18:11 |
| gouthamr | bauzas has been in touch; we'll track this with the 2025.1 tracker | 18:11 |
| gouthamr | Review and Merge Leaderless Project Changes | 18:11 |
| gouthamr | ^ this was completed, thank you for the reviews | 18:12 |
| gouthamr | no more pending items here | 18:12 |
| gouthamr | are there any other AIs that we were tracking? | 18:12 |
| gouthamr | bauzas highlights that we need to review the eventlet removal goal patch | 18:13 |
| gouthamr | #link https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/931254 (Propose to select the eventlet-removal community goal) | 18:14 |
| gouthamr | #topic OpenStack VMWare Working Group (aprice/jimmymcarthur) | 18:14 |
| gouthamr | aprice[m]: is talking about feature gaps and migration challenges that were identified by the working group | 18:15 |
| cardoe | I didn't speak up here but I'm on via Zoom. | 18:15 |
| gouthamr | #link https://www.openstack.org/vmware-migration-to-openstack/ (VMware Migration to OpenStack) | 18:15 |
| gouthamr | cardoe: noted | 18:16 |
| JayF | It's slightly confusing we have a "VMWare working group" when we /also/ have a group working in nova to keep the vmware driver alive (or did that go away?) | 18:16 |
| spotz[m] | Not 100% sure Jay but I can see both existing, driver so as not to lose functionality but the WG helping for folks wanting to migrate off | 18:18 |
| JayF | Oh, I think both existing makes sense, just the naming on the face of it is a little confusing. | 18:19 |
| gouthamr | jimmymcarthur asks how the working group can help the community | 18:20 |
| gouthamr | is there anything on the website linked above that can be expanded or corrected | 18:20 |
| gouthamr | we're discussing if the working group cares about existing integrations (the VMWare driver in nova) or is the group concerned about migrating off of VMWare to open source (or other alternatives) supported within OpenStack | 18:22 |
| gouthamr | bauzas states that the Nova VMWare driver's maintenance fell off over time, however a contributor company helped revive it | 18:23 |
| gouthamr | third party CI has been revived for the driver, and its currently in a better shape | 18:23 |
| gouthamr | does the working group think this effort is useful/needed for its goals? | 18:23 |
| gouthamr | aprice[m]: what company contributed to the revival? | 18:24 |
| clarkb | SAP | 18:24 |
| clarkb | I think | 18:24 |
| gouthamr | she'd like to provide a shout out to that company/contributors.. and help bridge other contributors that are interested in this effort | 18:25 |
| gouthamr | attendees on the zoom call agree that maintaining the VMWare driver is useful in the migration path.. | 18:25 |
| gouthamr | #link https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/vmware-migration-strategy (VMWare Migration Strategy/notes) | 18:26 |
| gouthamr | ^ and meeting notes from this meeting are being added there as well | 18:26 |
| gouthamr | Fabien Wiesel (fwiesel) has been taking the lead from SAP SE to revive VMWare driver support within OpenStack Nova | 18:28 |
| gouthamr | aprice[m] said that this will be brought up in the next working group meeting (Monday) | 18:29 |
| gouthamr | bauzas noted that the Nova meetings would be a good place to find and discuss with the VMWare driver maintainers | 18:30 |
| gouthamr | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Nova (Nova meeting) | 18:30 |
| gouthamr | jimmymcarthur recaps what the group has been focusing on | 18:31 |
| gouthamr | they produced the whitepaper highlighting parallels and alternatives | 18:31 |
| gouthamr | #link https://www.openstack.org/vmware-migration-to-openstack-white-paper (Migrating from VMware to OpenStack: Optimizing your Infrastructure to Save Money and Avoid Vendor-Lock-in) | 18:32 |
| gouthamr | many of the items mentioned in the whitepaper pertain to projects that need contributors | 18:32 |
| gouthamr | so the working group's efforts may help support the community to build/maintain these projects | 18:33 |
| gouthamr | bauzas provided an example of Masakari (Instance HA) | 18:33 |
| gouthamr | gmann asked if this is a Working Group under the OpenInfra Foundation | 18:33 |
| gouthamr | aprice[m] said it is, and that's because other top-level projects under the foundation are participating as well | 18:34 |
| gouthamr | aprice[m] gives a shout out to dansmith that participated in some of the meetings | 18:34 |
| gouthamr | jimmymcarthur wants to note that this isn't a forum for operators to come ask for features - its for folks to step up and help | 18:35 |
| aprice[m] | thank you all! very productive meeting | 18:35 |
| gouthamr | thank you aprice[m] and jimmy! | 18:35 |
| gmann | thanks for joining aprice[m] Jimmy, it was very helpful | 18:36 |
| gouthamr | #topic Reviving the os-api-ref project's core team | 18:36 |
| cardoe | What's the link to the broken items? | 18:36 |
| gouthamr | aprice[m]: is there a link/invite that you'd like to share for the Working Group? | 18:37 |
| gouthamr | gtema is noting that the api-ref needs updates, its currently using twitter-bootstrap that's deprecated years ago | 18:37 |
| gouthamr | stephenfin is currently the only core reviewer/maintainer | 18:37 |
| gouthamr | https://opendev.org/openstack/openstackdocstheme isn't maintained by the TC | 18:38 |
| gouthamr | but https://opendev.org/openstack/os-api-ref is maintained by the TC | 18:38 |
| gouthamr | the historic context here is that the os-api-ref was under the erstwhile docs team | 18:39 |
| gouthamr | we moved this under the TC because we didn't have anyone else that maintained it | 18:39 |
| gouthamr | openstackdocstheme is currently under the OSLO team | 18:40 |
| gouthamr | #link https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/projects/oslo.html#openstackdocstheme (Oslo libraries) | 18:40 |
| cardoe | So why do we have apathy? | 18:40 |
| gouthamr | bauzas mentions that the TC wouldn't be the right set of people to be tagged as maintainers here | 18:41 |
| gouthamr | you'd likely want sphinx experts (or atleast people familiar with this) | 18:41 |
| gouthamr | noonedeadpunk agrees | 18:41 |
| gouthamr | we're nervous bringing the maintenance to this group where there's little/no expertise | 18:43 |
| gouthamr | a correction in the notes (thanks gmann) | 18:43 |
| gouthamr | the TC can vote +2/+W on os-api-ref | 18:43 |
| gouthamr | but the repo is under oslo's governance | 18:43 |
| cardoe | clarkb: I'd follow up with "why are we forking our own OpenAPI spec?" | 18:44 |
| gouthamr | clarkb asked if we could just use swagger instead rather than os-api-ref | 18:44 |
| gouthamr | gtema says that its not feasible | 18:44 |
| JayF | I mentioned this is part of a larger pattern of the TC expecting to pick up anything falling through the cracks | 18:44 |
| gtema | openstack apis are pretty specific and cannot be rendered with "vanilla" swagger | 18:45 |
| gouthamr | JayF agrees with bauzas - this problem has come up in the past | 18:45 |
| gouthamr | cardoe is speaking in agreement as well | 18:45 |
| JayF | which is not maintainable and will not cause the best technical result, and that perhaps letting something rot can be used as a method for getting people motivated | 18:45 |
| gouthamr | the TC only has so much energy and effort (in addition to expertise) | 18:45 |
| fungi | sounds like an argument for dropping openstackdocstheme (it's insanely complicated, there are simpler canned sphinx themes we could switch to instead) | 18:46 |
| clarkb | that would also improve mobile reading of the docs | 18:47 |
| gouthamr | gmann notes that a lot of oslo libraries can look like this | 18:47 |
| JayF | fungi++++ | 18:47 |
| gouthamr | i.e., a bunch of cross project libraries are under oslo's governance.. | 18:47 |
| cardoe | fungi: that's what I was going at with my comments | 18:47 |
| gouthamr | gmann offers help with os-api-ref | 18:48 |
| JayF | that's the sorta creative solution that's better than throwing more effort at a project that has low interest (I don't think there's much crossover between 'theme designers' and 'backend cloud developers') | 18:48 |
| gouthamr | os-api-ref and openstackdocstheme seem tightly coupled | 18:48 |
| gouthamr | gtema says separating the two isn't straightforward | 18:48 |
| fungi | bauzas is making the case for https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/upstream-investment-opportunities/ | 18:49 |
| gouthamr | bauzas wants to craft an encouraging message to potential project contributors to pay attention here noting what's involved in the project's maintenance | 18:50 |
| gouthamr | the TC's push would be helpful in this regard | 18:50 |
| JayF | fungi: I'll note, I've still had zero takers even inquiring about the one I did for Ironic :/ I'm not sure how effective that is | 18:51 |
| gmann | not just ironic but for any opportunity listed there but we kept it there for more wider communication of where we need help | 18:51 |
| gmann | and it seems we need to refresh it for 2024, we forgot to that during Jan | 18:52 |
| fungi | yeah, i'm not saying the uio effort pays off, just that the idea of "tc lets people know where help would be appreciated" is what led to the creation of uio | 18:52 |
| gmann | yeah | 18:52 |
| gouthamr | JayF notes that G-Research funded a docs expert to review ironic docs in response to the Investment Opportunities addition | 18:52 |
| gouthamr | it took months of working with the resource however | 18:52 |
| gouthamr | so, he suggests adding an investment opportunity may not be enough alone | 18:53 |
| gmann | gouthamr: we should create the refresh list for 2024. we usually do it every calendar year | 18:53 |
| gouthamr | yes gmann | 18:53 |
| gouthamr | il | 18:53 |
| JayF | I will also say: super rewarding to do that work; even if it's not easy and is time consuming | 18:53 |
| gouthamr | i'll kick off discussions to catch up on what was done about the 2023 list | 18:53 |
| gouthamr | #action: review 2023 investment opportunities list | 18:53 |
| gouthamr | gmann asks gtema to check with the oslo team regarding the current state... stephenfin represents the oslo group, and his input brought the topic here | 18:54 |
| gouthamr | looks like we need to work on "how can we revive oslo and add more contributors to this team" | 18:55 |
| gouthamr | cardoe thinks (in support of fungi's thought) we need to move away from complicated libraries that we're losing maintainers on | 18:56 |
| gouthamr | if keeping up the effort is hard, maybe we take the pain to move to more sustainable alternatives.. | 18:57 |
| gouthamr | gtema says we could deprecate openstackdocstheme all over, but the styling goes away | 18:58 |
| gouthamr | is the TC concerned about this at all? | 18:58 |
| gouthamr | gtema clarified his work on the openapi specifications.. | 18:58 |
| gouthamr | we can't directly use swagger without also mixing in os-api-ref at the moment | 18:59 |
| fungi | note that it wouldn't be a *loss* of styling to switch to a canned sphinx theme, https://zuul-ci.org/docs/zuul for example uses sphinx_rtd_theme | 18:59 |
| gouthamr | i like that theme | 18:59 |
| gouthamr | bauzas notes that swagger isn't a drop in solution .. | 18:59 |
| gouthamr | gmann notes that the migration was attempted | 19:00 |
| gouthamr | gtema's current efforts seem more encouraging | 19:00 |
| gouthamr | alright we're at the hour | 19:01 |
| gouthamr | thank youl all for attending | 19:01 |
| gouthamr | we couldn't get through the agenda today | 19:01 |
| gouthamr | but, there wasn't anything new this week | 19:01 |
| gouthamr | we were left with regular items that we do catch up on - status of the gate, tracker etc | 19:01 |
| gouthamr | we'll catch up on those next week, or outside of this meeting | 19:02 |
| bauzas | yeah the problem with os-api-ref is way more difficult to solve than using a vanilla sphinx them | 19:02 |
| bauzas | them* | 19:02 |
| bauzas | doh, theme * | 19:02 |
| gouthamr | sorry about the delay in starting the meeting | 19:02 |
| gouthamr | #endmeeting | 19:02 |
| opendevmeet | Meeting ended Tue Nov 5 19:02:25 2024 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:02 |
| opendevmeet | Minutes: https://meetings.opendev.org/meetings/tc/2024/tc.2024-11-05-18.04.html | 19:02 |
| opendevmeet | Minutes (text): https://meetings.opendev.org/meetings/tc/2024/tc.2024-11-05-18.04.txt | 19:02 |
| opendevmeet | Log: https://meetings.opendev.org/meetings/tc/2024/tc.2024-11-05-18.04.log.html | 19:02 |
| gouthamr | bauzas: +1; i think all the other documentation moving away from openstackdocstheme would be a good start | 19:03 |
| gouthamr | i mean admin, contributor, install, config guides in each project | 19:03 |
| gouthamr | and security guide, ops guide etc | 19:03 |
| gtema | bauzas: once we have openapis (what is the scope of my work right now) idea is to deprecate os-api-ref, since that is exactly what I am working on (api-ref docs generated from openapi) | 19:03 |
| bauzas | then we have a plan :-) | 19:04 |
| bauzas | 1/ remove the openstack specific sphinx them | 19:04 |
| fungi | i'm not suggesting that replacing openstackdocstheme with something we don't have to maintain is a solution to the os-api-ref problem, i'm saying it's a solution to the "nobody wants to maintain openstackdocstheme" problem | 19:04 |
| gtema | a plan - yes. But now in order to proceed rendering api-ref from openapi we either need to update openstackdocstheme or get rid of it | 19:04 |
| bauzas | 2/ push projects to use openapi for api-ref | 19:04 |
| bauzas | 3/ ask gtema to magically solve that | 19:05 |
| bauzas | 4/ profit. | 19:05 |
| gtema | lol | 19:05 |
| cardoe | So if micro versions are the only reason that OpenAPI won't work then we'll likely have to explore an extension like "x-microversion" | 19:05 |
| fungi | if os-api-ref needs some magic that's built into openstackdocstheme, then maybe it could adopt just the bits of openstackdocstheme it needs, and perhaps even move those into os-api-ref itself | 19:05 |
| bauzas | cardoe: don't get me wrong, the current proposal for nova's openapi will support microversions :) | 19:06 |
| cardoe | There's a number of extensions that have cropped up and people have made rendering add-ons to support those OpenAPI extensions. | 19:06 |
| gtema | cardoe - https://docs.openstack.org/openapi/latest/ lists majority of the issues around openstack apis and ways to solve it | 19:06 |
| gtema | sadly MV is not the only issue | 19:06 |
| cardoe | Awesome that you've documented those clearly. | 19:07 |
| gtema | fungi - one idea we were discussing with stephenfin is to merge new openapi extension into the openstackdocstheme repo (what should have been done with os-api-ref from the very beginning) | 19:07 |
| cardoe | https://redocly.com/docs/api-reference-docs/spec-extensions so for example that's redoc's natively supported extensions in their renderer. | 19:08 |
| gtema | openapi 4.0 (still draft) seems to resolve microversion and actions issues | 19:08 |
| gtema | and as with every other "extension": you want to render them somehow nicely, so for now we need additions to openapi/swagger renderer | 19:10 |
| fungi | we definitely have existing examples of projects who have special sphinx needs and so carry their own custom sphinx extensions (ossa, elections, governance, releases) rather than baking them into openstackdocstheme | 19:12 |
| gtema | fungi, in such case there might be more "broken" stuff with bootstrap update that I wasn't aware of | 19:14 |
| gtema | But yes, we have PDF, issue reporting and other helpful stuff in openstackdocstheme that we would loose if we were to drop it | 19:15 |
| fungi | or would need to replace or extract those features into their own extensions | 19:16 |
| gtema | Right | 19:16 |
| fungi | problem is, like much of openstack's commons, openstackdocstheme was created when we had countless volunteers looking for things to do. a lot of what's in openstackdocstheme was added by foundation webdev folks in order to make it look consistent with the foundation's website once upon a time. now the community is left holding the bag, and there's a lot of complexity that isn't strictly | 19:18 |
| fungi | necessary, especially now that the tradeoff between maintainer time and niche features has shifted | 19:18 |
| gtema | Agreed | 19:19 |
| gtema | I guess in case of openstackdocstheme TC need to decide due to the impact. It's more than a single service | 19:20 |
| fungi | openstackdocstheme even eats a bit of my time, because worse than being nothing like the www.openstack.org site's look, it's perpetually close-but-outdated and i keep getting asked to make changes that duplicate things which were done by contractors working on the www site | 19:22 |
| fungi | at least if it were nothing like the www site, that expectation wouldn't be there | 19:23 |
| gtema | Yes fungi, that is also one of the things I "missed" to mention | 19:23 |
| fungi | the other thing is that openstackdocstheme is an artifact of a time when the openstack docs team was overly protective of the docs.openstack.org site and didn't allow documentation maintained by other teams (so-called "developer docs") to be published there, so styling changes were made in parallel to both the openstack-manuals and openstackdocstheme repos, and afaik to this day | 19:29 |
| fungi | openstack-manuals still doesn't rely on openstackdocstheme even though the team that resisted merging developer docs into the docs site hasn't existed for many years | 19:29 |
| JayF | bauzas: cardoe: ++ Ironic will *not* change to a new api-ref generated unless it's microversion aware (I am pretty happy about the refactor we're doing with the schemas to help the autogenerator; this is a huge benefit for Ironic as much as the docs) | 19:43 |
| cardoe | I'm not trying to take away features. I'm saying let's work with upstreams to explain our use case and come up with a solution. | 19:56 |
| cardoe | Hey that sounds like exactly the same thing I'm arguing at OpenStack operators to avoid forking. ;) | 19:56 |
| *** bauzas_ is now known as bauzas | 22:05 | |
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