| opendevreview | Merged openstack/election master: Update governance tag 0.16.0 to configuration https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/election/+/910688 | 00:44 |
|---|---|---|
| opendevreview | Felipe Reyes proposed openstack/election master: Add Felipe Reyes candidacy for OpenStack Charms https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/election/+/911145 | 16:12 |
| frickler | wow, that's ... quite late. I was actually going to ask jamespage about the lack of a candidate for that project | 16:38 |
| jamespage | oversight on deadlines - I nudged ;) | 16:39 |
| JayF | yeah, they'll have to be appointed tho | 16:46 |
| spotz[m] | Yeah Trove I think needs to be appointed as well | 17:09 |
| spotz[m] | I think I have 6 projects left on my no PTL list | 17:09 |
| dansmith | FYI, I might be a few minutes late to the meeting today | 17:44 |
| dansmith | of course the 8-hour arrival window for a service person just landed 10 minutes from now | 17:45 |
| fungi | now that's service | 17:50 |
| dansmith | don't get me started. | 17:51 |
| dansmith | it's a "come back and fix stuff you should have done the first time" appointment, so, yeah. | 17:51 |
| JayF | I had, during a meeting the other day, a person arrive during TC meeting despite explicit "You can arrive anytime but 10a-11a" instructions | 17:52 |
| JayF | It's very much a product of the "you work from home == you're not working" attitude some folks have I think | 17:53 |
| opendevreview | Ghanshyam proposed openstack/governance master: Mark Murano project inactive https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/908859 | 17:53 |
| dansmith | there's also definitely some "I don't have things scheduled to the minute, so I don't understand how life could work that way" aspect but yeah | 17:53 |
| JayF | tc-members: https://us06web.zoom.us/j/87108541765?pwd=emlXVXg4QUxrUTlLNDZ2TTllWUM3Zz09 5 minute warning | 17:55 |
| dansmith | whew, the ten minute warning was less than ten minutes, so I should be good, but if I disappear you'll know why | 17:57 |
| JayF | #startmeeting tc | 18:01 |
| opendevmeet | Meeting started Tue Mar 5 18:01:04 2024 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is JayF. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:01 |
| opendevmeet | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:01 |
| opendevmeet | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 18:01 |
| JayF | Welcome to the weekly meeting of the OpenStack Technical Committee. A reminder that this meeting is held under the OpenInfra Code of Conduct available at https://openinfra.dev/legal/code-of-conduct. | 18:01 |
| JayF | Today's meeting agenda can be found at https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee. | 18:01 |
| JayF | #info Today's meeting is being held primarily via video call. Action items and meeting minutes will be documented in IRC but for a full replay of the meeting, please visit the OpenStack TC youtube channel#info Today's meeting is being held primarily via video call. Action items and meeting minutes will be documented in IRC but for a full replay of the meeting, please visit the, where the recording will be uploaded soon. | 18:01 |
| JayF | #undo | 18:01 |
| opendevmeet | Removing item from minutes: #info Today's meeting is being held primarily via video call. Action items and meeting minutes will be documented in IRC but for a full replay of the meeting, please visit the OpenStack TC youtube channel#info Today's meeting is being held primarily via video call. Action items and meeting minutes will be documented in IRC but for a full replay of the meeting, please visit the, where the recording will be uploaded soon. | 18:01 |
| JayF | #info Today's meeting is being held primarily via video call. Action items and meeting minutes will be documented in IRC but for a full replay of the meeting, please visit the OpenStack TC youtube channel | 18:01 |
| JayF | #link https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBuGwBXOmWHydSE09RM84wQ | 18:02 |
| JayF | #topic Roll Call | 18:02 |
| JayF | o/ | 18:02 |
| gmann | o/ | 18:02 |
| slaweq | o/ | 18:02 |
| rosmaita | o/ | 18:02 |
| dansmith | o./ | 18:02 |
| JayF | #info James Page absence noted on the agenda in advance | 18:03 |
| JayF | spotz[m]: | 18:04 |
| JayF | Are you going to join us? | 18:04 |
| spotz[m] | o/ here but will be late joining video. Somewhere noisy and headset won’t connect | 18:04 |
| JayF | ack | 18:04 |
| JayF | #topic Follow up on Action Items | 18:04 |
| JayF | #info JayF contacted Tony/Elod, they have a change up to add documentation about joining unmaintained group, then will send email. | 18:06 |
| JayF | #info JayF emailed mailing list about gate ram issues | 18:07 |
| JayF | #info Posted resolution to explicitly remove Murano from release https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/910434 | 18:09 |
| JayF | #topic Gate Health Check | 18:10 |
| JayF | #info TheJulia identified an upstream dnsmasq crasher impacting Ironic. Ironic rolled back to 2.85 built via source to resolve. Working w/upstream Ubuntu and DNSMasq for a real fix. | 18:14 |
| TheJulia | It is also likely impacting neutron, there is nothing ironic specific there, really | 18:15 |
| TheJulia | JFYI | 18:15 |
| spotz[m] | TheJulia: Designate too possibly? | 18:15 |
| JayF | Yeah, I indicated the way to find it is by looking for the crashes in neutron-dhcp-agent | 18:15 |
| TheJulia | if they are using dnsmasq and issue a SIGHUP at any time, yes | 18:15 |
| JayF | #info Jobs depending on CEPH were failing due to bad download location; fix was required to be forced-merged due to other instability. | 18:16 |
| fungi | related to gate health, opendev is removing centos-7 nodes from zuul on march 15, and there are a number of projects that still have leftover cruft referencing centos-7 which will end up with zuul config errors when that goes away | 18:16 |
| JayF | #topic Testing runtime for 2024.2 release | 18:16 |
| johnsom | Designate doesn't use dnsmasq | 18:16 |
| JayF | fungi: ack, thank you | 18:16 |
| spotz[m] | Thanks johnsom | 18:19 |
| JayF | #info Some concerns, raised initially by Dan, around python 3.12 not being mentioned at all in the proposed testing runtime document. TC members generally understand 24.04 testing means python 3.12 testing, but we may need to be more explicit in the documentation. | 18:21 |
| JayF | #link https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/908862 | 18:21 |
| JayF | #info Consensus is to add a "warning box" or similar construct to the document, indicating that python 3.12 needs work during cycle even if it's not going to be a part of the platform. | 18:30 |
| JayF | #topic Implementation of Unmaintained Branch Statuses | 18:31 |
| rosmaita | patches are out for transitioning current EM branches to Unmaintained | 18:31 |
| rosmaita | #link https://review.opendev.org/q/topic:%22vwx-unmaintained%22 | 18:31 |
| rosmaita | process of becoming an Unmaintained core team member | 18:31 |
| rosmaita | #link https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/project-team-guide/+/910817 | 18:31 |
| JayF | #topic Muano inactivity and Caracal Release | 18:40 |
| JayF | #undo | 18:40 |
| opendevmeet | Removing item from minutes: #topic Muano inactivity and Caracal Release | 18:40 |
| JayF | #topic Murano inactivity and Caracal Release | 18:40 |
| JayF | #link https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/910434 | 18:40 |
| JayF | #link https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/908859 | 18:40 |
| JayF | #info We need to land this today if we're landing it; so we can get the resolution on the books before RC deadline | 18:42 |
| JayF | #topic 2024 TC Tracker/PTG Planning | 18:42 |
| JayF | #info TC PTG planning etherpad will be created this week | 18:44 |
| JayF | #info TC PTG will be scheduled tentatively for the same time blocks as last cycle; pending confirmation with incoming-new-TC | 18:44 |
| JayF | #topic Open Discussion | 18:44 |
| JayF | Anyone with open discussion topics speak up quickly | 18:44 |
| fungi | #endmeeting | 19:03 |
| opendevmeet | Meeting ended Tue Mar 5 19:03:52 2024 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:03 |
| opendevmeet | Minutes: https://meetings.opendev.org/meetings/tc/2024/tc.2024-03-05-18.01.html | 19:03 |
| opendevmeet | Minutes (text): https://meetings.opendev.org/meetings/tc/2024/tc.2024-03-05-18.01.txt | 19:03 |
| opendevmeet | Log: https://meetings.opendev.org/meetings/tc/2024/tc.2024-03-05-18.01.log.html | 19:03 |
| spotz[m] | Sorry I didn’t make the video. Earbuds wouldn’t sync up with anything | 19:10 |
| opendevreview | Ghanshyam proposed openstack/governance master: Define testing runtime for 2024.2 release https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/908862 | 19:47 |
| gmann | tc-members ^^ another revision on testing runtime, please check | 19:48 |
| gmann | dansmith: I added it in top section, please check if that is ok now? https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/908862/6/reference/runtimes/2024.2.rst#61 | 19:50 |
| JayF | Is there *anyone at all* working on docs for OpenStack anymore? I don't mean in terms of like, keeping CI running, I mean, thinking about docs at an openstack-level? | 20:02 |
| JayF | GR-OSS is sponsoring a professional tech writing team to look into Ironic docs and make concrete improvement suggestions; and I want to ensure my assumption of "there's likely no specific doc writers upstream they can work with" is accurate | 20:02 |
| clarkb | I'm not aware of any full time docs folks | 20:03 |
| fungi | i've not noticed any either | 20:03 |
| JayF | That's what I figured. Just wanted to ask somewhere, publically, so if there was someone at least I tried :D | 20:05 |
| JayF | (the goal is to get bite-sized pieces that are doable by MLH Fellows/Outreachy folks/part time contributors) | 20:05 |
| JayF | (the goal is to get bite-sized pieces that are doable by MLH Fellows/Outreachy folks/part time contributors since this is the reality) | 20:06 |
| TheJulia | Upstream doc writers are typically "developers who care about docs" at this point | 20:19 |
| fungi | or contributors who were told by reviewers that their change needed an accompanying docs update, at least | 20:22 |
| TheJulia | ++ | 20:23 |
| frickler | yes, but the global level docs like installation guide are extremely neglected I'd say | 20:24 |
| TheJulia | at some point we have to ask, should severely neglected docs be "removed" or "re-framed" if they risk creating more noise than signal | 20:25 |
| frickler | by chance I started updating the contributor guide yesterday, because I noticed some old stuff like ethercalc still getting mentioned | 20:25 |
| JayF | This is my understanding as well, and I know it's an openstack-wide problem but I doubt if I have the resources to impact it at that scope, which is why we're looking at Ironic right now | 20:25 |
| opendevreview | Nicolas Bock proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: Add section about transition https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/project-team-guide/+/911375 | 20:25 |
| TheJulia | yeah, any effort to boil the ocean should look at reduction of scope first because the ocean scope is just... a lot | 20:26 |
| clarkb | the top level scope might be easy to make impact in beacuse no one can say no right now :) | 20:26 |
| fungi | security guide is very stale too, sad to say | 20:26 |
| TheJulia | clarkb: but many people can express specific opinions as well which can become a quagmire | 20:26 |
| JayF | I am explicitly scoping out top level for two reasons: 1) It's useless to fix top level if individual project docs are still bad and 2) As someone running the project, it's gotta be stuff I know. I know Ironic docs; I don't know the rest. | 20:28 |
| JayF | can't let perfect be the enemy of good | 20:29 |
| TheJulia | ++ | 20:51 |
| TheJulia | looks like the standalone job is failing for separate reasons | 21:15 |
| TheJulia | maybe we just non-vote it? | 21:15 |
| JayF | TheJulia: ECHAN? | 21:16 |
| TheJulia | yup | 21:17 |
| TheJulia | doh! | 21:17 |
| spotz[m] | I did mention to the RDO team that the RPM instructions were way out of date, I'm hoping we can get them updated. We no longer have a User Guide I think the most recent was O release:( | 21:42 |
| opendevreview | Merged openstack/governance master: Resolution: Remove Murano from 2024.1 release https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/910434 | 21:57 |
| TheJulia | Maybe we're reaching the point an "installation" process needs to be entirely re-thought | 22:57 |
| TheJulia | since the underlying interactions are radically shifting. | 22:57 |
| clarkb | I'm not sure we need to redo openstack ansible and kolla etc? maybe I'm misunderstanding the statement. If you mean update the installation docs then ya I could see that maybe they should just point to one of the installer docs isntead | 23:19 |
| TheJulia | Well, to re-frame it, think of what is installation and how does that vary | 23:21 |
| JayF | TC meeting is uploading here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDTRbr5XPvs | 23:22 |
| TheJulia | won't uniformly apply, really based upon perspective to solve the demand at hand | 23:22 |
| JayF | TheJulia: is it safe to say you mean | 23:22 |
| JayF | There is no "OpenStack Install Guide" | 23:23 |
| JayF | there is "Kolla-Ansible Install Guide" and "openstack-ansible install guide" "Charmed OpenStack Install Guide" ... etc | 23:23 |
| TheJulia | yes | 23:23 |
| JayF | the idea of a single install guide is extremely misleading | 23:23 |
| TheJulia | and, individual project will still frame things from their own point of view | 23:23 |
| TheJulia | ... at which point really the challenge is operational, not system architectural | 23:24 |
| clarkb | ya I imagine that the top level docs might need to be more choose your own adventure style rather than trying to be complete in the sense of taking someone from server to openstack | 23:24 |
| JayF | [sad trombone sounds] The real problem is that there's nobody to even think about or do this work. | 23:26 |
| JayF | We (GR-OSS) are doing what we can with the resources we have in trying to uplift Ironic's docs, if that's successful we might look at what a larger scope would look like | 23:26 |
| JayF | but it doesn't matter what shape we want the documents to be; it matters what shape of documents we have enough eyeballs and hands to keep up to date, and right now that looks like "not much" | 23:27 |
| TheJulia | which sort of goes back to scope and the need to de-scope | 23:28 |
| clarkb | and maybe some of this situation is a result of tools like osa and kolla largely working for people | 23:30 |
| clarkb | so there isn't demand that we have separate documentation | 23:30 |
| TheJulia | possible | 23:31 |
| fungi | still, might be worth some intern time to rip out the existing install guide and replace it with links to osa, kolla, rdo, charmed openstack, debian oci... | 23:36 |
| JayF | Bluntly; I think that's kinda wishful thinking given the number of useful, needed documents that are bitrotting. | 23:36 |
| spotz[m] | I think the way we have the install guide(one main page which sends you to the project install pages) is fine. What I think we're lacking these days is how to use the CLI , and maybe a little bit of Horizon) to do stuff | 23:36 |
| JayF | At least from an Ironic perpsective | 23:36 |
| JayF | ++ exactly, we have lots of doc needs that aren't being filled | 23:37 |
| fungi | the theory is that deleting outdated documentation nobody's going to update is less work than writing new documentation, but yes just letting it continue to sit there is even less work still | 23:38 |
| TheJulia | One of the recent thing I'm seeing is not even how to use, but people trying to push forward without actually actually stopping to look at the messages they get back | 23:38 |
| JayF | fungi: I specifically told the docs people we asked to do an evaluation (FWIW they are doing this for several CNCF projects, as well, under CNCF funding) that an answer of "this entire section needs to be mostly deleted" would be OK feedback | 23:39 |
| spotz[m] | You can still find stuff, it may not be totally up todate with anything new but if we haven't removed functionality it still has use | 23:39 |
| clarkb | spotz[m]: yes for stuff like boot nodes and make networks and all that I expect the dosc don't need a lot of changes | 23:39 |
| fungi | heck, i think the openstack certified administrator materials/exam still use a several-years-old release | 23:40 |
| fungi | docs that are still mostly correct because the software hasn't changed much is great, in my opinion. the problem is outdated docs which are misleading/dangerous because of how things have changed | 23:41 |
| spotz[m] | Last one I did was 3-4 years ago, when Mirantis did it's first version which was really their test with the COA name on it | 23:43 |
| fungi | terribly wrong docs are better deleted if they're not going to be corrected. mostly correct docs are better left up even if nobody has time to update them. the trick is figuring out which is which | 23:43 |
| clarkb | within the "core" services user interactions haven't changed a whole lot in the last 4-5 years. | 23:43 |
| clarkb | there are of course exceptions for new features, and I bet deployment related stuff chagnes due to underlying changes in the systems openstack depends on | 23:44 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.17.3 by Marius Gedminas - find it at https://mg.pov.lt/irclog2html/!