| opendevreview | James Page proposed openstack/governance master: Deep link to ops-sunbeam README https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/886453 | 09:10 |
|---|---|---|
| jamespage | apologies but I won't be able to make the TC meeting later today - one of those evenings when I already had something else in the diary | 09:47 |
| knikolla | no worries jamespage . thanks for notifying. | 14:01 |
| knikolla | o/ Hope everyone had a safe travel back | 14:01 |
| JayF | I'm going to be unavailable during the TC meeting as well. | 15:44 |
| knikolla | tc-members: the goal of today's TC meeting (in ~2 hrs) is to quickly touch base while the summit is still fresh in our memories and capture some action items. The agenda is pretty light otherwise so I don't expect the meeting to run too long. You attendance is very appreciated, but not strictly required. | 15:52 |
| dansmith | I wonder if it might be better to make this a video call if the goal is to catch up those of us that weren't there and ponder some of the discussions? | 15:53 |
| dansmith | like, I'm guessing there will be a lot of "so, EM discussions, what now?" sort of things | 15:54 |
| gmann | dansmith: EM discussion not concluded or reach to any point but operator want to keep EM so next step is to continue discussion in ML | 15:55 |
| knikolla | Such short notice for switching to video call might be troublesome for people that didn't plan to be in an appropriate location that can support one. | 15:56 |
| dansmith | gmann: ack | 15:56 |
| dansmith | knikolla: okay | 15:56 |
| knikolla | dansmith: but there wasn't any pushback on renaming EM to something more appropriate. | 15:56 |
| dansmith | yeah, the name isn't my problem with it :) | 15:57 |
| gmann | and there was/is no expectation that upstream maintainers will keep it maintained but yes name/message is not clear about it | 16:00 |
| knikolla | My reading of the room was that there were some expectations that the name carried that didn't match reality. | 16:01 |
| gmann | yeah name change can make it message clear | 16:01 |
| knikolla | And I think this is the only apparent consensus of the discussion. | 16:02 |
| dansmith | if consumers of the branches were confused about what EM was, then that's a *different* concern than the original one I think | 16:03 |
| dansmith | anyway, we don't need to pre-discuss it here, I was just suggesting that we could pack more into the hour quicker if we did it via video | 16:03 |
| knikolla | dansmith: understood. thanks for the suggestion. | 16:04 |
| knikolla | #startmeeting tc | 17:59 |
| opendevmeet | Meeting started Tue Jun 20 17:59:52 2023 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is knikolla. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:59 |
| opendevmeet | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:59 |
| opendevmeet | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 17:59 |
| knikolla | Hi all, welcome to the weekly meeting of the OpenStack Technical Committee | 17:59 |
| knikolla | A reminder that this meeting is held under the OpenInfra Code of Conduct available at https://openinfra.dev/legal/code-of-conduct | 18:00 |
| knikolla | Today's meeting agenda can be found at https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 18:00 |
| knikolla | #topic Roll Call | 18:00 |
| dansmith | o/ | 18:00 |
| knikolla | o/ | 18:00 |
| gmann | o/ | 18:00 |
| knikolla | We have 2 noted absences for today. James and Jay. | 18:00 |
| noonedeadpunk | o/ | 18:00 |
| knikolla | Hope those who attended the summit last week had a safe travel home. | 18:00 |
| knikolla | tc-members: courtesy ping for meeting | 18:02 |
| spotz_ | o/ | 18:02 |
| spotz_ | I was grabbing tea:) | 18:02 |
| knikolla | #topic Follow up on past action items | 18:03 |
| knikolla | There's 1 action item marked for me | 18:03 |
| knikolla | knikolla To fix link redirect to release from docs | 18:03 |
| knikolla | Due to the summit last week I have not been able to accomplish this item. I have therefore moved it to the TC tracker. | 18:03 |
| knikolla | #link https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/tc-2023.2-tracker | 18:03 |
| knikolla | As we are about 1/3 into the Bobcat cycle, I will start collecting updates on the tracker items from the individual assignees and start sending a monthly "Tracker update" email. | 18:03 |
| knikolla | I'll also reach out individually to people assigned items to collect more context or note down action items or items that need discussion. | 18:04 |
| knikolla | Nothing else from me on past action items | 18:05 |
| knikolla | #topic Open Infra Summit retrospective | 18:05 |
| knikolla | Last week was the OpenInfra Summit + PTG in Vancouver. | 18:05 |
| knikolla | There were 750 attendees (IIRC), quite smaller compared to previous summits. | 18:05 |
| dansmith | whoa | 18:05 |
| knikolla | Some select updates, sessions and discussions of interest: | 18:06 |
| knikolla | The OpenInfra foundation now has regional hubs in Europe and Asia. | 18:06 |
| noonedeadpunk | however, I would say that most of sessions were way more advanced | 18:06 |
| knikolla | The number of cores that OpenStack is managing has reached 40 million and is growing rapidly. | 18:06 |
| noonedeadpunk | and qualities of discussions were leveled up, including formus | 18:06 |
| gmann | this capture most of the highlights #link https://superuser.openinfra.dev/articles/openinfra-summit-vancouver-recap-50-things-you-need-to-know/ | 18:06 |
| knikolla | yep, the forum sessions were quite productive, and it was easier to network at this smaller scale. | 18:06 |
| knikolla | #link https://superuser.openinfra.dev/articles/openinfra-summit-vancouver-recap-50-things-you-need-to-know/ | 18:07 |
| gmann | yeah but 30 min were less time for those, hoping we will have those of 1 hr at least in future | 18:07 |
| knikolla | thanks for the link gmann | 18:07 |
| fungi | not too much smaller than berlin i don't think, which was somewhere north of 800? but yeah, lots of people ended up with visa problems and had to cancel on short notice | 18:07 |
| knikolla | The foundation said that over >100 people couldn't get a visa in time. | 18:07 |
| spotz_ | Overall I thought it was a great summit for the community, we had lots of great topics and new attendees | 18:07 |
| noonedeadpunk | ++ | 18:08 |
| knikolla | All other forum etherpads can be found at | 18:08 |
| knikolla | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Forum/Vancouver2023 | 18:08 |
| knikolla | Forums of note: | 18:08 |
| knikolla | Tuesday was the TC + Leaders interaction forum. | 18:08 |
| knikolla | #link https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/tc-leaders-interaction-2023-vancouver | 18:08 |
| knikolla | We discussed about gate job timeouts, SQLAlchemy 2.0 and Storyboard. Discussion is captured in Etherpad linked above. | 18:08 |
| knikolla | #action JayF will write a proposal to capture the discussion related to SQLAlchemy 2.0 migration. | 18:08 |
| knikolla | This includes a timeline for a requirements bump and possible retirement in the event of failure. | 18:08 |
| knikolla | Anything else you feel is important to highlight from the tc+leaders interaction or comments on the above? | 18:09 |
| spotz_ | Just a note the Board session was scheduled to overlap so myself and a few others stepped out | 18:10 |
| knikolla | On Wednesday we discussed about extended maintenance | 18:11 |
| knikolla | #link https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/vancouver-2023-em | 18:12 |
| knikolla | (I think this is the right etherpad though I see very few notes) | 18:12 |
| knikolla | This was a short timeslot and most of the time was spent setting the context for the discussion. | 18:12 |
| knikolla | My understanding of the outcome is | 18:12 |
| knikolla | - There is a desire to keeping branches up and open. | 18:12 |
| knikolla | - There was surprise from the attendees on the amount of effort from the maintainers to keep those branches working and patched. | 18:12 |
| knikolla | - There was no pushback in renaming this to something that signals clearly that the branch is not maintained. | 18:12 |
| knikolla | But we don't have any action items come out of this one. | 18:12 |
| knikolla | Anyone else would like to add something? | 18:13 |
| spotz_ | I think the rename is a good idea, we just need to find the right name this time | 18:14 |
| knikolla | The most fun part of software | 18:15 |
| dansmith | a rename doesn't address my concern, although it sounds like a rename is *also* needed | 18:15 |
| gmann | well, it is more than just rename. | 18:15 |
| dansmith | I assume there's a ML thread coming based on previous comments right? | 18:15 |
| gmann | upstream maintainer need to learn how to stop maintenance on those and just keep it open for operators to come forward and mainatibn | 18:15 |
| gmann | operator does not expect us to maintain those and few of them remember the discussion from Sydney that it was external maintainers who was expected to maintain those | 18:16 |
| fungi | what we didn't have time to get to is that we can't, logistically, grow an infinite number of open branches, so how to determine when to cut them loose and decide nobody is stepping forward to propose/review patches on them | 18:17 |
| gmann | my proposal was to stop backport to EM and anyone need those EM and backport step up and propose backport | 18:17 |
| knikolla | The forum really needed more time, but I think it was important in getting people on the same ground to understand that we don't want to spend resources on extended maintenance. | 18:18 |
| gmann | and we help them in testing if it is broken | 18:18 |
| fungi | and also that what we have now, with the default being we don't close branches unless the project asks us to, doesn't work so well when there's nobody to ask to close a defunct branch, so it needs to become opt-in with a dead-man switch defaulting to eol | 18:18 |
| knikolla | And having that be uncontested by the audience. | 18:18 |
| gmann | if we continue backport/fix test on every backport, same situation will happen that upstream team will get frustrated and propose to delete them | 18:18 |
| dansmith | IMHO, as long as those branches are in the main trees, that will keep happening :) | 18:19 |
| knikolla | Yeah | 18:19 |
| gmann | until we do not draw that line for us we are not solving this issue, renaming is just one thing to do but that does not solve the issue | 18:19 |
| gmann | dansmith: unfortunately, yes | 18:19 |
| knikolla | I will schedule time during next TC's meeting and in the meanwhile I will try to collect the feedback into alternative proposals | 18:21 |
| knikolla | And push those out through the ML | 18:21 |
| knikolla | Seems fair? | 18:21 |
| dansmith | so ML thread before next meeting? | 18:22 |
| gmann | yeah, let's continue the discussion in ML before that | 18:22 |
| knikolla | Yes. | 18:22 |
| knikolla | We've heard input on things in general, now I want to group the various alternatives that I heard about into specific paths forwards and get input on those. | 18:23 |
| knikolla | So not just discussing about EM in general. | 18:24 |
| knikolla | Any objections/thoughts? | 18:24 |
| knikolla | (about the process outlined) | 18:25 |
| spotz_ | nope | 18:25 |
| dansmith | I mean, yes to ML thread.. I dunno about the "not just discussing about EM in general" part.. but I guess that depends on how well you enumerate every possible alternative proposal | 18:26 |
| dansmith | I hope there's still room for coming up with new ideas | 18:26 |
| knikolla | There's always room for new ideas | 18:26 |
| dansmith | ...or revisiting old ones that seemed too difficult but maybe are a better fit for all the desires we've collected | 18:27 |
| knikolla | Do you have a pointer to the old ones? | 18:28 |
| dansmith | do you want to get into discussing alternatives here and now or are you just going over the discussions from last week? | 18:29 |
| gmann | Initially I was not in favor of that but moving those into different namespace is not so bad idea. I know this need a lot of work but kinnda long term solution | 18:29 |
| dansmith | gmann: that's the thing I'm referring to exactly :) | 18:29 |
| dansmith | because I think it addresses several of the concerns | 18:29 |
| gmann | let's discuss in ML I think so that we can have more audience and at some stage when we filter out/feedback then we can call out to decide one in TC meeting | 18:30 |
| dansmith | it has its own challenges, for sure, but... | 18:30 |
| dansmith | gmann: ++ | 18:30 |
| gmann | yeah | 18:30 |
| knikolla | ah, i thought you meant some old idea from eons ago that was captured somewhere | 18:30 |
| knikolla | in a land far away | 18:30 |
| fungi | just be aware that having extra forks of our repositories in gerrit is also quite painful and i'd really rather avoid having to support that | 18:31 |
| dansmith | doesn't have to be in gerrit, IMHO, but yes fungi I know infra is not a fan | 18:31 |
| fungi | gerrit is not designed to make forks low-cost like some platforms, that's a tradeoff its designers made in favor of other optimizations | 18:32 |
| knikolla | Moving on to the last forum session that I want to highlight? i18n. | 18:33 |
| knikolla | #link https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/vancouver-2023-i18n-forum | 18:33 |
| knikolla | The time for this session was also very limited and was mostly spent on setting the context and demonstrating the current process of translations with Zanata. | 18:34 |
| knikolla | We reiterated the call for someone to work on the integration with Weblate after the upstream investment opportunity merged. | 18:34 |
| knikolla | We haven't found that yet. | 18:34 |
| knikolla | It might be valuable to investigate allowing translations for select governance documents, like Upstream Investment Opportunities. | 18:35 |
| noonedeadpunk | I think there's another session forum that likely worth to be highlighted, regarding RBAC... | 18:36 |
| noonedeadpunk | *forum session | 18:36 |
| noonedeadpunk | #link https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/rbac-operator-feedback-vancouver2023 | 18:37 |
| knikolla | Please do provide some highlights from that, I wasn't able to attend it. | 18:37 |
| gmann | I am preparing summary and will send on ML | 18:37 |
| gmann | main ask from that is about global reader | 18:37 |
| gmann | and public cloud use case of support admin kind of but that we have not solved with the current plan. something to do in future | 18:38 |
| noonedeadpunk | Well, while we have reverted system scopes, there was nothing proposed as alternative to it, so usecases that were waited by public clouds for years just got kinda ignored after all... | 18:38 |
| noonedeadpunk | And yes, global_reader is another thing that is needed and also has kinda fallen apart with that | 18:38 |
| gmann | yeah, I know that is not solved but finishing project persona is good first step | 18:39 |
| knikolla | We can fulfill some of the admin use cases that I heard with a "domain manager" sort of role in Keystone. | 18:39 |
| gmann | we can add global reader as a special role in keystone so we do not need system scope for that | 18:39 |
| knikolla | or rather, manager role with a domain scoped token. | 18:39 |
| dansmith | we've discussed domain admin/manager in the past, and I agree it'd be ideal if we had that as well | 18:39 |
| gmann | yeah, this is phase-3 | 18:40 |
| noonedeadpunk | I think main problem with "domain manager" is how to prohibit it assigning "admin" role to the project, that will be treated as global admin | 18:40 |
| dansmith | I think there's some confusion over what scope a domain actually covers, as it seems not arbitrary, but there definitely seems like some gain to a mid-level admin like that | 18:40 |
| gmann | yeah and we can stop domain manager to assign admin role and only domain admin can. at least this will solve public cloud issue. | 18:41 |
| knikolla | noonedeadpunk: we can define that as a feature in Keystone. Perhaps a conf option or option on the domain. | 18:41 |
| gmann | something special we need to do for domain manager | 18:41 |
| knikolla | I can work with the Keystone team to write a spec for that. | 18:41 |
| gmann | I was thinking a separate policy to assign admin role and default to domain admin | 18:41 |
| noonedeadpunk | But yes, we can continue discussion in ML if you gmann was prepearing one | 18:42 |
| knikolla | ++ | 18:42 |
| noonedeadpunk | (not to steal everyones time) | 18:42 |
| gmann | yeah, will send today or tomorrow for sure | 18:42 |
| knikolla | noonedeadpunk: time thief | 18:43 |
| knikolla | Anything else on summit? | 18:43 |
| noonedeadpunk | hehe :p | 18:43 |
| dansmith | gmann: I think the missing thing for domain admin was to make it possible to have roles on the root domain, so global admin was just admin on the root domain, | 18:43 |
| dansmith | but I think keystone can't do that currently or something | 18:43 |
| dansmith | it's been a couple years since we discussed, but I remember that being a thing that would clean up the model a bit | 18:44 |
| gmann | yeah | 18:44 |
| knikolla | Root domain isn't exposed, as far as I remember, no. | 18:44 |
| dansmith | right | 18:44 |
| knikolla | #topic Gate health check | 18:45 |
| knikolla | Did anything blow up while we were away? | 18:45 |
| dansmith | I think something is blowing up right now with neutron? | 18:46 |
| dansmith | https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/2024160 | 18:46 |
| gmann | yeah, test_live_migration_with_trunk is failing consistently | 18:46 |
| fungi | network issues in rackspace caused problems with the mirror server in the dfw region, i think. there was a quick band-aid put in place over the weekend but we need to revisit it | 18:46 |
| dansmith | fungi: seems like there are some ubuntu mirror issues as well, are those related>? | 18:47 |
| fungi | are they ongoing? | 18:47 |
| dansmith | some of my personal systems have been unable to fetch package updates from the main mirrors due to key issues | 18:47 |
| fungi | oh, that would be unrelated then | 18:47 |
| gmann | to unblock gate, current workaround for trunk test is to skip #link https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/tempest/+/886496 | 18:47 |
| knikolla | the CI for which timed out, fun. | 18:48 |
| knikolla | alongside two failures | 18:48 |
| gmann | its same test failing, need to check | 18:49 |
| knikolla | anything else on the gate or action items to note down? | 18:51 |
| knikolla | #topic Reviews and Open Discussion | 18:53 |
| knikolla | #link https://review.opendev.org/q/project:openstack/governance+status:open | 18:53 |
| knikolla | We're in pretty good shape with open reviews | 18:53 |
| knikolla | Floor is open for anything that didn't find into the previous agenda items | 18:54 |
| knikolla | Alright, thanks all! | 18:56 |
| knikolla | use these 4 minutes that you get back wisely | 18:56 |
| knikolla | #endmeeting | 18:56 |
| opendevmeet | Meeting ended Tue Jun 20 18:56:08 2023 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:56 |
| opendevmeet | Minutes: https://meetings.opendev.org/meetings/tc/2023/tc.2023-06-20-17.59.html | 18:56 |
| opendevmeet | Minutes (text): https://meetings.opendev.org/meetings/tc/2023/tc.2023-06-20-17.59.txt | 18:56 |
| opendevmeet | Log: https://meetings.opendev.org/meetings/tc/2023/tc.2023-06-20-17.59.log.html | 18:56 |
| spotz_ | Thanks knikolla and everyone! | 18:58 |
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