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| apevec | mnaser, hi, 1500 UTC meeting is in this channel? | 13:28 |
|---|---|---|
| mnaser | apevec: yes :) | 13:28 |
| apevec | I can speak about the centos stream topic if needed! | 13:28 |
| apevec | I wonder what is expected AI for TC on that topic? | 13:28 |
| mnaser | I should probably append that to my message. apevec: oh thank you that would be useful | 13:28 |
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| mnaser | I am not sure if we have anything actionable yet other than “here’s a change and how does it affect us” | 13:29 |
| apevec | on tech level I see few steps like adding it to AFS, check few ifs in devstack etc. | 13:29 |
| apevec | IIUC concern was about announced EOL for centos "classic" before 1yr wallaby support is over? | 13:30 |
| mnaser | apevec: something I expect to come up is the whole “tested distros” for openstack list but I also expect maybe some folks to bring up what this means for already released versions of openstack | 13:30 |
| mnaser | Yeah that was one that was brought up | 13:30 |
| apevec | so I'd like to emphasize c8s will be the _same_ content as we would get in "classic" just continuously released | 13:30 |
| apevec | ah yes, where is that list of "tested distros" maintained again? | 13:31 |
| mnaser | I guess tripleo will develop against cs8? | 13:31 |
| mnaser | Let me grab that for you | 13:31 |
| mnaser | https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/runtimes/victoria.html and we determine them using https://governance.openstack.org/tc/resolutions/20181024-python-update-process.html | 13:32 |
| apevec | thanks! | 13:32 |
| mnaser | From what I understand things like Python versions won’t change in a stream so it’s not like it’s centos stream but centos stream *8* | 13:32 |
| apevec | yes | 13:33 |
| mnaser | so it’s not actually rolling entirely but rolling inside the major release so to speak | 13:33 |
| apevec | it can be even diffed, there c8s branch at git.centos.org | 13:33 |
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| apevec | yeah rolling was unfortunate wording which everybody seems to interpreted as bad | 13:33 |
| apevec | based on experience with real rolling distros I guess | 13:34 |
| mnaser | yeah it gave centos stream == Debian sid sort of vibe | 13:34 |
| apevec | it was corrected in centos blog but too late for Internets :) | 13:34 |
| mnaser | Internet loves to find something to be angry about :) | 13:34 |
| tosky | it's like using the latest from stable/ussuri instaed of the last x.y.z tarball for a certain project | 13:35 |
| mnaser | That’s exactly how I understand it too | 13:35 |
| apevec | tosky++ good analogy, thanks! | 13:35 |
| apevec | and what I heard there are some admins who plan to do that, maintain tagged yum repos with _exact_ set of X.Y rpms | 13:36 |
| apevec | all what RHEL folks said is that they will not that that part anymore | 13:37 |
| mnaser | I see. So if someone just wants to check all the RPMs in RHEL and build a repo out of them, everything should can be pulled out of stream | 13:37 |
| apevec | yes | 13:37 |
| mnaser | Barring some security patch that hasn’t been moved to cs8 yet | 13:37 |
| apevec | and the content is the same eventually, just delivered earlier | 13:38 |
| apevec | it's the same for c8 "classic" | 13:38 |
| apevec | we cannot publish embargoed fix | 13:38 |
| apevec | and it must go to rhel first b/c of SLA we have | 13:38 |
| apevec | but it will be within hours in c8s branch | 13:39 |
| mnaser | A bit of a bummer that the 1:many model of discussion around cs8 built a lot of FUD. I appreciate you coming to clarify a lot of this stuff and hoping other rh community members reach out and do the same | 13:39 |
| mnaser | (In other communities) | 13:39 |
| apevec | np, yes that's the hope | 13:39 |
| apevec | I mean, outrage and all was expected by our community managers, it will settle down once we get to the facts :) | 13:40 |
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| yoctozepto | gmann: I will have a meeting till half past - I'd love it if you could postpone our topic till then, thanks | 14:16 |
| yoctozepto | I mean, till 30th minute mark of the planned tc meeting | 14:16 |
| noonedeadpunk | apevec: well, even "classic" release of 8.3 got CI pretty broken for us | 14:29 |
| noonedeadpunk | because releasing kernel module renaming withing same minor kernel version kind of weird imo | 14:29 |
| yoctozepto | noonedeadpunk: and renaming repos | 14:30 |
| yoctozepto | and whatever | 14:30 |
| noonedeadpunk | and that, sure | 14:30 |
| yoctozepto | and we also got docker 20.10 | 14:30 |
| yoctozepto | it is hell's rollecoaster this week | 14:30 |
| yoctozepto | :-) | 14:31 |
| noonedeadpunk | so it didn't only sounded like debian sid, but it already looks like debians sid even for classic version, which is not what everyone expected | 14:32 |
| fungi | keep your hands and arms inside th vehicle at all times | 14:32 |
| fungi | noonedeadpunk: i wouldn't have equated it to sid, more like testing (the repository where candidates for the next stable release are assembled) | 14:33 |
| fungi | packages in sid (unstable) aren't guaranteed to make it into testing | 14:33 |
| gmann | yoctozepto: ack, sure. | 14:33 |
| fungi | they can have migration-blocking bugs filed against certain versions, or be missing some of their dependencies even | 14:34 |
| fungi | i doubt that's expected with centos stream | 14:34 |
| fungi | debian testing is where package mostly land once they're "good enough to release" | 14:34 |
| fungi | (for the record, i run debian/unstable on most of my systems and find it remarkably stable) | 14:35 |
| noonedeadpunk | well, with debian you can actually choose level which says that debian is has the way better model :) | 14:37 |
| noonedeadpunk | or you can jsut get some packaged from unstable/sid while sticking to stable | 14:38 |
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| fungi | sure, i mean on a lot of my systems i'm mixing testing, unstable, experimental, and packages i've patched/rebuilt locally | 14:38 |
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| fungi | not that i recommend doing that just for fun, but the security patching workflow during release freeze means that some fixes can land directly in testing/tpu without going through sid | 14:40 |
| fungi | so there are times where it makes some sense | 14:40 |
| fungi | but if you're going to be mixing suites or even just using sid without doing that, it's a good idea to get familiar with solving dependency problems, temporarily holding packages at specific versions, searching the bug tracker, paying attention to announced lib transitions, et cetera | 14:42 |
| noonedeadpunk | yeah, agree here | 14:42 |
| fungi | so like i say, not a problem i expect people using centos 8 stream to encounter | 14:43 |
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| noonedeadpunk | well, will see. | 14:45 |
| noonedeadpunk | I'm honestly more pessimistic here | 14:45 |
| noonedeadpunk | (mostly because of the 8.3 release) | 14:46 |
| noonedeadpunk | I find it as a great example of what may Centos become with Stream, but you even won't have a release notes to fix things afterwards and see what has been changed | 14:47 |
| noonedeadpunk | Because now they are referencing to the point releases in notes, which won't be the case I guess? | 14:49 |
| fungi | it seems likely to end up similar to debian/testing or opensuse/tumbleweed, packages would need to meet certain quality level not just a dumping ground for things which might be releaseable in rhel | 14:49 |
| apevec | no, it will not be a dumping ground, it is still the same rhel process for better or worse | 14:51 |
| apevec | and 8.3 example shows that no QA is 100% | 14:51 |
| apevec | Stream give us opportunity to check updates one by one | 14:51 |
| apevec | I can tell you that RHEL CI is serious, and we (RDO team) are working with them to get Zuul support within Fedora CI | 14:52 |
| apevec | the same test infra for publicly contributed test cases will be used | 14:52 |
| apevec | ad alert: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zuul-based-ci is what fbo & team have been working on | 14:53 |
| apevec | Stream will allow to propose tests for openstack use-cases | 14:53 |
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| apevec | noonedeadpunk, re. release notes - RHEL relnotes will apply, I don't think centos ever had their own? | 14:57 |
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| apevec | so we'll have Stream topic at :30 ? | 14:57 |
| gmann | apevec: yeah in 2nd half of the meeting | 14:59 |
| apevec | ack | 14:59 |
| jungleboyj | o/ | 15:00 |
| ricolin | o/ | 15:01 |
| mnaser | technical difficulties this morning oops | 15:01 |
| mnaser | #startmeeting tc | 15:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Dec 10 15:01:55 2020 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mnaser. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tc)" | 15:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tc' | 15:01 |
| mnaser | #topic rollcall | 15:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "rollcall (Meeting topic: tc)" | 15:02 | |
| gmann | o/ | 15:02 |
| ricolin | o/ | 15:02 |
| diablo_rojo__ | o/ | 15:02 |
| mnaser | o/ | 15:02 |
| mugsie | o/ | 15:02 |
| mnaser | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee | 15:02 |
| mnaser | i count 4 names and an (on time) jungleboyj making it 5 | 15:03 |
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| jungleboyj | :-) | 15:03 |
| mnaser | #topic Follow up on past action items | 15:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Follow up on past action items (Meeting topic: tc)" | 15:03 | |
| jungleboyj | Didn't have to get the kids to school today. | 15:03 |
| mnaser | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2020/tc.2020-12-03-15.00.html | 15:03 |
| jungleboyj | Can't wait until Ian can drive himself. | 15:03 |
| mnaser | haha :) | 15:03 |
| mnaser | mnaser change all reference of meeting time to go towards eavesdrop for single source of truth <= i've removed all references (or as much as i can) and relinked them to eavesdrop | 15:04 |
| mnaser | that way, we won't have any confusion if we play in the time for the future | 15:04 |
| mnaser | if anyone sees any, i'd appreciate fixing them (or sending them my way!) | 15:04 |
| jungleboyj | ++ | 15:04 |
| mnaser | mnaser remove openstacksdk discussions for future meetings <= done | 15:04 |
| mnaser | mnaser send email to ML to find volunteers to help drive goal selection <= that's a TODO on me. i will draft up and send the email out today. | 15:05 |
| mnaser | #action mnaser send email to ML to find volunteers to help drive goal selection | 15:05 |
| gmann | +1. | 15:05 |
| mnaser | for follow up :) | 15:05 |
| mnaser | next up, gmann complete retirement of searchlight & qinling | 15:05 |
| gmann | that is close, repo cleanup and governance patches are merged | 15:06 |
| mnaser | nice. any project-config patches left at this point or? | 15:06 |
| gmann | I left with few dependencies one left which are up and under review | 15:06 |
| akahat | o/ | 15:06 |
| gmann | no project config patch left | 15:06 |
| gmann | #link https://review.opendev.org/q/topic:%22retire-searchlight%22+status:open | 15:06 |
| gmann | #link https://review.opendev.org/q/topic:%22retire-qinling%22+status:open | 15:06 |
| gmann | one system config is there if you can have look. | 15:07 |
| mnaser | ok awesome, i don't have infra-root but maybe we can ask clarkb or fungi nicely :P | 15:07 |
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| gmann | i see will ping them | 15:07 |
| mnaser | gmann: do you think we should keep it as an action item for next time to track or you feel like it should be marked as 'done' ? | 15:07 |
| gmann | mnaser: we do not need as governance patch is merged only thing is projects need to merge the already up patches for usage ermoval | 15:08 |
| gmann | removal | 15:08 |
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| mnaser | ack, do you want us to track progress as an action item for next week just to see if we can help you drive this or feel its fine? | 15:09 |
| fungi | i'll take a look at the system-config change now | 15:09 |
| gmann | mnaser: either way is fine, tracking with AI will be more clear. | 15:09 |
| mnaser | i agree :) | 15:09 |
| gmann | fungi: thanks, these two https://review.opendev.org/c/opendev/system-config/+/764573 https://review.opendev.org/c/opendev/system-config/+/764553 | 15:09 |
| mnaser | #action gmann complete retirement of searchlight & qinling | 15:09 |
| mnaser | so many diablo_rojo's in here :P | 15:10 |
| diablo_rojo__ | I am behind in my retirement of karbor, but I should have some patches up in the next couple days | 15:10 |
| diablo_rojo__ | Lol sorry | 15:10 |
| diablo_rojo__ | So many laptops | 15:10 |
| mnaser | ok awesome, no worries, i'll keep it as an AI to track | 15:10 |
| diablo_rojo__ | Yes please :) | 15:10 |
| mnaser | #action diablo_rojo complete retirement of karbor | 15:10 |
| mnaser | and finally mnaser remove project retirement from agenda -- that's gone to clean up the agenda now | 15:10 |
| mnaser | #topic W cycle goal selection start | 15:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "W cycle goal selection start (Meeting topic: tc)" | 15:11 | |
| gmann | We should change this to X cycle goal | 15:11 |
| mnaser | very much so, lol | 15:11 |
| diablo_rojo__ | Agreed lol | 15:11 |
| mnaser | #undo | 15:11 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: #topic W cycle goal selection start | 15:11 |
| mnaser | #topic X cycle goal selection start | 15:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "X cycle goal selection start (Meeting topic: tc)" | 15:11 | |
| mnaser | so -- it's a bit on me having not sent the email to seek volunteers for this | 15:12 |
| gmann | yeah, | 15:12 |
| mnaser | the action item is still there and i'll send that out today, but does it make sense to keep it as an open discussion item to track the progoress (i think it makes more sense than action items) | 15:12 |
| gmann | also there is nothing in proposed directory so it may take time | 15:12 |
| gmann | Secure RBAC also not yet ready to be community goal. | 15:12 |
| mugsie | yeah, and the etherpad doesn't have a huge selection of ... achivable goals :/ | 15:13 |
| gmann | true | 15:13 |
| mugsie | #link https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/community-goals | 15:13 |
| mnaser | i think perhaps a small reminder that we don't have to do a community goal for every release. and maybe it makes sense for us to say .. im sure our contributors are tired, and even more since covid | 15:13 |
| mnaser | so maybe skipping a community goal for sanity and letting our developers push time towards a feature they want to drive or something that they might _enjoy_ doing a bit more than say, privsep ;) | 15:14 |
| mugsie | yeah. | 15:14 |
| mnaser | (disclaimer: i think privsep is great but maybe not the most exciting thing to work on) | 15:14 |
| mugsie | or we tried a "stablisation" cycle in the past, that might be a good breather goal? | 15:14 |
| gmann | yeah, that is totally fine. | 15:14 |
| jungleboyj | Given how burned out everyone seems to be mnaser 's idea isn't bad. | 15:14 |
| ricolin | mugsie, that will make a fine goal indeed | 15:15 |
| fungi | cycle goal: try not to make things worse ;) | 15:15 |
| mnaser | mugsie: that's pretty neat, i mean, we can just leave it open and ask folks to update the proposed goal page with something they worked on | 15:15 |
| mugsie | I like that :) | 15:15 |
| gmann | +1. goal can be 'spend goal-work time with your family and firend' :) | 15:15 |
| mnaser | so that its sort-of a show-and-tell "hey we FINALLY got around doing X" | 15:15 |
| mnaser | kinda thinking of thinking the community goal this time around maybe being your '20% time' | 15:16 |
| mnaser | and if that doesn't produce anything, that's also fine. times are hard :< | 15:16 |
| gmann | and this can encourage teams to do more progress on OSC and RBAC stuff too | 15:16 |
| mnaser | perhaps we can link out to the popup teams and the goals that are not selected | 15:17 |
| gmann | otherwise popup teams does not get much attentions from projects side | 15:17 |
| gmann | mnaser: +1 | 15:17 |
| mnaser | and say that you could totally help with that | 15:17 |
| gmann | yeah good idea. | 15:17 |
| mnaser | this is an awesome idea i think | 15:18 |
| mugsie | +100 | 15:18 |
| mnaser | i will try to summarize some of these ideas, being like either: 1. use this time to rest and relax, no need to do something, 2. use this time to finish up this really cool thing you've been trying to find time to, and share with us to recognize or 3. check out these existing goals / popup teams that might interest you if you want to invest time in something different/new | 15:19 |
| mnaser | (all 3 can be what the stabilize 'goal' is) | 15:19 |
| mnaser | how do we feel about above ^ before i blast to ML? :) | 15:20 |
| jungleboyj | I like it. | 15:21 |
| gmann | +1, one suggestion to move popup team one as 1st :) | 15:21 |
| jungleboyj | +1 | 15:21 |
| mugsie | sounds great to me | 15:21 |
| ricolin | mnaser, assume we will keep collecting new idea for goals along side with these three idea? | 15:21 |
| mugsie | (in any order :D ) | 15:21 |
| mnaser | of course | 15:22 |
| mnaser | that's a good addition | 15:22 |
| ricolin | mnaser, super:) | 15:22 |
| mnaser | ok so after all my not sending that email was a 'happy accident' | 15:22 |
| mnaser | :P | 15:22 |
| mnaser | ok, moving onto next | 15:22 |
| mnaser | #topic Audit and clean-up tags (gmann) | 15:22 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Audit and clean-up tags (gmann) (Meeting topic: tc)" | 15:22 | |
| jungleboyj | Sometimes things happen for a reason. :-) | 15:22 |
| gmann | we can remove the zero upgrade one as it is merged. | 15:23 |
| mnaser | #topic Audit and clean-up tags (gmann) | 15:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Audit and clean-up tags (gmann) (Meeting topic: tc)" | 15:23 | |
| mnaser | #undo | 15:23 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: #topic Audit and clean-up tags (gmann) | 15:23 |
| gmann | for API tag, doc patch is merged. thanks mugsie for pushing that. I will start the ML to encourage projects to start apply for that tag | 15:23 |
| gmann | mnaser: may be we can track only API one for now to know how projects are progressing on this | 15:24 |
| gmann | I am sure manila is interested, may be gouthamr will raise patch soon | 15:24 |
| gouthamr | +1 | 15:24 |
| mnaser | ok so should we keep this action to discuss on progress of getting projects in | 15:25 |
| mnaser | or split it out to action items? | 15:25 |
| gmann | I think action is fine to know how many projects want/do not want and what next we can do on this tag | 15:25 |
| mnaser | gmann: maybe an action item is announcing the tag and seeing if projecst have interest in 'applying' ? | 15:26 |
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| gmann | mnaser: I will say to keep 'Audit and clean-up tags' only and we will have each tag one by one to audit carefully | 15:27 |
| gmann | so that we cover each tag this time | 15:27 |
| mnaser | sounds good | 15:27 |
| mnaser | ok, trying to be mindful of our time | 15:27 |
| mnaser | maybe we can flush this quickly | 15:27 |
| mnaser | #topic X cycle release name vote recording (gmann) | 15:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "X cycle release name vote recording (gmann) (Meeting topic: tc)" | 15:27 | |
| mnaser | smcginnis: happen to be around? do you see access to the results or we have to disclose? | 15:27 |
| mnaser | (implying that i would .. remember mine) | 15:28 |
| jungleboyj | :-) | 15:28 |
| gmann | :) | 15:28 |
| jungleboyj | It would be good if we had the results as I don't totally remember my vote. | 15:28 |
| mugsie | #link https://civs.cs.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/results.pl?id=E_7e6e96070af39fe7 | 15:29 |
| ricolin | we do have the result link | 15:29 |
| gmann | does organizer get the vote results may be fungi knows? | 15:29 |
| ricolin | ^^^ | 15:29 |
| mnaser | that's what i'm curious about | 15:29 |
| mugsie | (the CIVS email has the link to the results page) | 15:30 |
| gmann | mugsie: ricolin yeah but it does not have individual vote results | 15:30 |
| fungi | civs doesn't provide individual voter choices unless you set that option when creating the poll, otherwise votes are anonymous | 15:30 |
| gmann | ohk | 15:30 |
| mnaser | ahhh, ok, so we really need to remember our choices | 15:30 |
| gmann | and only for 6 votes as more vote now can alter the result :) | 15:30 |
| mnaser | ok well, we're at 10:30 and a bunch of community members are looking forward for another discussion, so id like to be mindful of time | 15:31 |
| jungleboyj | I am pretty sure I was Xenoblast, Xenomorpth and Xenith | 15:31 |
| mnaser | we can keep this for next week or discussion async over ML or IRC | 15:31 |
| gmann | sure | 15:31 |
| mnaser | #topic CentOS 8 releases are discontinued / switch to CentOS 8 Stream (gmann/yoctozepto) | 15:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "CentOS 8 releases are discontinued / switch to CentOS 8 Stream (gmann/yoctozepto) (Meeting topic: tc)" | 15:31 | |
| mnaser | all yours ^, also we have apevec from the RDO community who can help inform/explain things too | 15:31 |
| apevec | actually, I didn't propose the topic :) | 15:32 |
| apevec | I think it was from Kolla ? | 15:32 |
| apevec | I can explain what Stream is | 15:32 |
| gmann | yoctozepto started this in QA office hour this week | 15:32 |
| gmann | also we are adding job in devstack also which need more work #link https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/devstack/+/759122 | 15:32 |
| apevec | basically the same content as in centos8 just delivered earlier | 15:33 |
| gmann | apevec: +1, that will be helpful, go head | 15:33 |
| gmann | ahead | 15:33 |
| apevec | so atm no need to change | 15:33 |
| mugsie | so, does this mean for stable branches we should remove stream? | 15:33 |
| apevec | so tl;dr the same RHEL process applies | 15:33 |
| apevec | only what is planned to be release will get to Stream | 15:33 |
| mugsie | as stream could update under us, and cause a ton of changes to fix the gate? | 15:33 |
| apevec | mugsie, atm we don't think we have 8-stream in AFS | 15:34 |
| mnaser | mugsie: as i understand it, stream is not exactly a rolling distro | 15:34 |
| apevec | mugsie, centos updates under us e.g. right now | 15:34 |
| mnaser | so it's like how we said we support centos 8 but centos 8 and 8.1 and 8.2 and 8.3 are different | 15:34 |
| mnaser | we never really said 'we support centos 8.X' | 15:34 |
| apevec | yeah rolling might have different implications, | 15:34 |
| mugsie | we pin to a minor version of centos (wel we did for centos 7.x) | 15:34 |
| apevec | where we pin it? | 15:34 |
| mnaser | oh really? TIL, i thought we were always testing against latest centos minor (i remember the painful breakages when upgrades happen) | 15:35 |
| mnaser | at least in our OSA times :P | 15:35 |
| mnaser | at least nodepool builds latest AFAIK | 15:35 |
| * yoctozepto still in another meeting, give him 5 mins | 15:35 | |
| apevec | in AFS we have just 8 | 15:35 |
| apevec | i.e. latest | 15:35 |
| apevec | fungi, please remind me where is AFS content defined? | 15:35 |
| fungi | also the images we build for ci nodes in opendev just use whatever the latest 8.x is at the time | 15:35 |
| apevec | right | 15:36 |
| apevec | and we are getting now all 8.3 updates in bulk | 15:36 |
| apevec | which are breaking things | 15:36 |
| apevec | ask weshay|ruck ;) | 15:36 |
| weshay|ruck | :) | 15:36 |
| marios|rover | :( | 15:36 |
| weshay|ruck | tru story | 15:36 |
| gmann | testing runtime also just talk about 7/8 which mean whatever latest .x is can be run #link https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/runtimes/ussuri.html | 15:37 |
| apevec | so getting single updates could be better for us in CI | 15:37 |
| apevec | thanks for the link | 15:37 |
| mugsie | oh, we did move to the "latest CentOS Major" | 15:37 |
| zbr | switching to stream makes sense IMHO, i already did this locally ~6 month ago. | 15:37 |
| apevec | yeah so CentOS 8 can stay, with 8 Stream repos enabled until 2024 | 15:37 |
| mnaser | i assume for those targeting centos, life will be easier as it'll be small bumps rather than one big blow at once | 15:37 |
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| fungi | #link https://opendev.org/opendev/system-config/src/branch/master/playbooks/roles/mirror-update/files/centos-mirror-update mirror script for centos | 15:37 |
| fungi | apevec: ^ | 15:37 |
| apevec | thanks fungi++ | 15:38 |
| mnaser | so rather than one big change on release day, it's a small delta over time.. | 15:38 |
| apevec | oh wait only 7 ? | 15:38 |
| apevec | ah nm, I'm blind | 15:38 |
| mnaser | :P\ | 15:38 |
| fungi | apevec: separate sections for 7 and 8 yeah | 15:39 |
| apevec | yep, I see now | 15:39 |
| apevec | so yes, mirror.dal10.us.leaseweb.net/centos/8/ | 15:39 |
| mnaser | i think right now from an openstack pov, tripleo will probably continue to give us the signal of 'openstack can run on this stack' in terms of qemu/libvirt/etc as it always has | 15:39 |
| mugsie | OK, so it will me RHEL will have to deal with any incompatibilities when building packages for RHEL, but we just keep using CentOS 8 stream, which should stay the same major version for the life cycle of that OpenStack release | 15:39 |
| apevec | we'll need to add http://mirror.dal10.us.leaseweb.net/centos/8-stream/ | 15:39 |
| mnaser | yoctozepto and gmann from what i see are working on the devstack improvements to be able to run on it | 15:39 |
| mugsie | and stream major versions will have a longer life cycle than our releases anyway, so we should be OK? | 15:40 |
| apevec | yes Stream will be 5 years | 15:40 |
| zbr | anyone working on a change to add 8-stream? I can do it. | 15:40 |
| mnaser | mugsie: i think given RHEL's upstream dev happening inside tripleo (and targetting stream?), i can imagine that they'll want to get things landed inside of stream so rhel works | 15:40 |
| apevec | zbr, not change, add | 15:40 |
| gmann | do we need to change in stable branch also or keep centos8? | 15:40 |
| apevec | if we have space | 15:40 |
| apevec | so we don't break current assumption about repo paths | 15:41 |
| zbr | yeah, that was the idea. | 15:41 |
| gmann | so add from wallaby onwards ? | 15:41 |
| zbr | we can think as "8-stream" as some kind of 9-ish. | 15:41 |
| mugsie | gmann: thats a good call. doe we have any stable branches that will be supported past Dec 2021? | 15:41 |
| mnaser | i think ussuri might be affected, lets check | 15:42 |
| gmann | mugsie: yeah at least Victoria. and ussuri on Extended maintance | 15:42 |
| mnaser | #link https://releases.openstack.org/ | 15:42 |
| apevec | I think TripleO will want Train, weshay|ruck marios|rover ? | 15:42 |
| marios|rover | apevec: yes | 15:42 |
| * yoctozepto is here | 15:42 | |
| mugsie | victoria is going to be impacted, ussari in EM is less of a worry | 15:42 |
| gmann | we need to care for both Victoria and Ussuri | 15:42 |
| yoctozepto | I see you are progressing as planned :-) | 15:43 |
| yoctozepto | gmann: ++ | 15:43 |
| fungi | the bulk of the upstream jobs run on ubuntu anyway, so if we end up needing to drop centos-8 jobs from some em branches that doesn't seem like the end of the world | 15:43 |
| fungi | or convert them to use stream | 15:43 |
| yoctozepto | Kolla is going to switch to stream if nothing changes in the first month of 2021 | 15:43 |
| jungleboyj | fungi: ++ | 15:43 |
| mugsie | yeah. converting victoria to stream may be a good idea. I would just leave ussari as is, and turn off centos next december | 15:43 |
| fungi | i mean, think about it, the packages landing in stream would have also filtered into centos 8 point releases under the old model and caused the same disruption for jobs running on those branches either way | 15:43 |
| yoctozepto | we still expect the situation might change | 15:43 |
| apevec | fungi, exactly | 15:44 |
| apevec | yoctozepto, in what way would it change? | 15:44 |
| gmann | and we can leave decision for Ussuri later if EM team want to move it to Unmaintained or fine with dropping centos8 | 15:44 |
| mnaser | as i understand it this morning, centos stream 8 is pretty much RHEL 8.LATEST + delta until 8.LATEST+1 | 15:45 |
| fungi | so it's business as usual. em branches are either fixed so jobs can continue running, or we drop those jobs if the work to fix them is greater than the benefit they provide us | 15:45 |
| apevec | mnaser, correct, it candidate builds for .LATEST+1 | 15:45 |
| gmann | grenade jobs are on ubuntu so we do not need to worry for ussuri updates for victoria grenade testing | 15:45 |
| apevec | i.e. now in c8s you see what will be released as 8.4 | 15:45 |
| yoctozepto | apevec: well, we never know whether this decision is not reverted based on pressure | 15:45 |
| yoctozepto | plus also independent projects doing rebuilds | 15:45 |
| apevec | yoctozepto, I can tell you for sure it is not going to be reverted | 15:45 |
| apevec | and there are already other rebuilds | 15:46 |
| apevec | just not sure how viable they would be | 15:46 |
| apevec | again, c8s == same content just earlier | 15:46 |
| fungi | e.g. rockylinux | 15:46 |
| apevec | fungi, is README.md :) | 15:46 |
| mnaser | the way i see it is: other rebuilds are there to welcome to bring patches to add support | 15:46 |
| apevec | but yeah we'll see | 15:46 |
| fungi | apevec: yup! plus some vapor | 15:46 |
| mnaser | but as of now, we need to seek a route moving forward for centos at least | 15:47 |
| gmann | yeah | 15:47 |
| mugsie | thereis some things I suspect will stick around like https://blog.cloudlinux.com/announcing-open-sourced-community-driven-rhel-fork-by-cloudlinux | 15:47 |
| mnaser | cloudlinux has been around for ages as a rhel derivative | 15:47 |
| apevec | yes there are clones and that's fine | 15:47 |
| fungi | also scientific linux may end up doing a c8 update eventually | 15:47 |
| apevec | cXs will be still real thing | 15:48 |
| mnaser | to be honest, i feel like folks who are interacting with rhel/centos inside our upstream seem to have a pretty good grisp on the best solution moving forward | 15:48 |
| apevec | esp with next 9 cycle | 15:48 |
| mnaser | so from a tc pov, it looks like supportability is not disappearing for the platform | 15:48 |
| mnaser | and given rh's interest in maintaining older releases, they'll fix what needs to be done from a distro pov | 15:48 |
| apevec | weshay|ruck, marios|rover ^ go fix it :) | 15:49 |
| marios|rover | ;) | 15:49 |
| jungleboyj | mnaser: ++ | 15:49 |
| apevec | but yes, we are around | 15:49 |
| mnaser | and i already see mobilised action and planning from their part there | 15:49 |
| gmann | +1, there are much overlap between these two community in term of contributors. | 15:49 |
| mnaser | i think it's important to have had this discussion, i learned a lot about it, but i dont think there is anything immediate from the tc in terms of actionable | 15:50 |
| yoctozepto | apevec: aye; we are more generally fine with stream | 15:50 |
| yoctozepto | just our users seem very upset | 15:50 |
| * noonedeadpunk was away and missed the party :( | 15:50 | |
| yoctozepto | noonedeadpunk: the party is pending | 15:50 |
| fungi | other than to simply be aware that some stable branches may need to switch jobs to a "different" node type | 15:50 |
| fungi | (which isn't really all that different) | 15:50 |
| marios|rover | for ci it makes a lot of sense, unless you're ci'ing for RHEL builds which isn't the case here | 15:50 |
| apevec | hope we'll get IRL party in 2022 Summit at least! | 15:51 |
| jrosser | ^ exactly this - OSA also has end users who have just migrated 7>8 and are really worried | 15:51 |
| yoctozepto | apevec: ++ | 15:51 |
| marios|rover | i.e. we get the latest stuff earlier rather than all at once | 15:51 |
| mnaser | tosky put it this morning in a very neat way, which was: centos 8 stream is stable/ussuri, and rhel 8.x is the tagged release | 15:51 |
| mugsie | marios|rover: well, CI for RHEL is the reason we do have centos | 15:51 |
| yoctozepto | jrosser: exactly my words you mean? | 15:51 |
| jrosser | this is not just about CI jobs but also the message we give out from projects like Kolla and OSA to our users, quite apart from RH customers | 15:51 |
| apevec | jrosser, users can still consume stream | 15:52 |
| mugsie | I do worry abnot people being able to install openstack on rhel without using the RHOP tools | 15:52 |
| apevec | they just might to keep a snapshot | 15:52 |
| yoctozepto | apevec: users don't want stream :D | 15:52 |
| apevec | if they're concerned about the rate of change | 15:52 |
| yoctozepto | that's what they said | 15:52 |
| yoctozepto | they are concerned about multiple things | 15:52 |
| apevec | yoctozepto, want / need is different :) | 15:52 |
| fungi | previously the risk was that because centos lagged rhel we might not be testing against new behaviors in rhel which hadn't trickled into centos yet. the problem will simply get reversed, we may wind up testing against new features in centos-stream which haven't made it into rhel yet | 15:52 |
| mnaser | yeah. i can see a point where releasing something to support centos 8 stream.. its probably very different over time | 15:52 |
| mugsie | as not all projects are in RHOSP, and people *do* sideload them into installs | 15:52 |
| yoctozepto | apevec: they need a stable, reliable distro; and they feel like it has been discontinued | 15:53 |
| apevec | fungi, there is and will be more RHEL CI | 15:53 |
| marios|rover | fungi: s/may/will get new features that didn't make into rhel yet | 15:53 |
| mnaser | so a release from 1 year ago of OSA that says "supports centos 8 stream" might not actually support it 1 year later since changes | 15:53 |
| apevec | yoctozepto, let's take that offline, but it is not | 15:53 |
| apevec | again same content | 15:53 |
| yoctozepto | apevec: you don't have to persuade me | 15:53 |
| mnaser | but, in defense of centos in this case | 15:53 |
| mnaser | i don't think any distro | 15:53 |
| mnaser | was promising like | 15:53 |
| yoctozepto | apevec: I am running stream | 15:53 |
| apevec | nothing would show up in c8s unless it is planned for .Y+1 | 15:53 |
| mnaser | OSA train ONLY runs against rhel 8.2 | 15:54 |
| mnaser | s/rhel/centos/ | 15:54 |
| mnaser | we were always very much OSA train runs against centos 8<end> | 15:54 |
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| mnaser | i don't know of any community project that's actually "pinning" to point release of centos for what it's worth | 15:54 |
| fungi | doing so would be a terrible idea anyway | 15:54 |
| noonedeadpunk | It's just the matter that it's hard and resourcefull to maintain thing that changes too fast | 15:55 |
| noonedeadpunk | like it was with Suse | 15:55 |
| mugsie | I know projects that say x version works on centos/rhel y.z | 15:55 |
| fungi | because those point releases of centos don't get security support for the same duration as our stable branches | 15:55 |
| mnaser | noonedeadpunk: thing is, suse was a rolling distro | 15:55 |
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| yoctozepto | mnaser: openhpc | 15:55 |
| noonedeadpunk | and in case users don't like it and don't wont it in prod it is useless effort moreover | 15:55 |
| yoctozepto | and I believe some others also do pin | 15:55 |
| yoctozepto | kolla never did | 15:55 |
| mnaser | i think we were deploying against the rolling version of suse at the time | 15:55 |
| fungi | the centos/rhel model has for a long time been that if you want security support you need to fairly quickly update to the next minor release in the series | 15:56 |
| yoctozepto | it bit us but we can live with that | 15:56 |
| mnaser | yoctozepto: TIL! | 15:56 |
| yoctozepto | ubuntu also bit us, not seeing much difference | 15:56 |
| gmann | 5 min remaining for meeting | 15:56 |
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| noonedeadpunk | mnaser: well changes between suse 15.1 and 15.2 were not bigger then for centos 8.2 -> 8.3 where repos got renamed... | 15:56 |
| gmann | so two things for us ? 1. move all centos8 josb to centos8-stream for master as well as stable/Victoria (leave stable/ussuri for now) + 2. update wallaby and Victoria testing runtime doc too | 15:56 |
| mnaser | noonedeadpunk: i think there was no shortage of packages being renamed inside suse at the time | 15:56 |
| mnaser | :P | 15:56 |
| mugsie | gmann: ++ | 15:57 |
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| yoctozepto | if centos stream rolls more like ubuntu lts now, I will not see a difference | 15:57 |
| mnaser | gmann: ok, that's pretty good and i trust your QA-team hat :) | 15:57 |
| noonedeadpunk | +1 | 15:57 |
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| yoctozepto | ++ | 15:57 |
| mnaser | apevec: i can maybe throw a suggestion for some sort of office hour / ama something like that to explain and talk through these | 15:57 |
| apevec | sure, we can do that | 15:58 |
| mnaser | i know that might be quite stressful with a lot of opinions going out but today's discussion was helpful | 15:58 |
| apevec | here in TC channel? | 15:58 |
| mnaser | i'm happy to host it here | 15:58 |
| jungleboyj | mnaser: ++ | 15:58 |
| gmann | ok. once we get devstack job working then we can ask teams to start migrating it. I will push testing runtime doc update | 15:58 |
| noonedeadpunk | gmann: so it will mean that CI has images for both stream and non-strem, right? | 15:58 |
| mnaser | and we can ask the deployment projects to be around for that and it will be very useful i think | 15:58 |
| apevec | yes let keep both for now | 15:58 |
| gmann | noonedeadpunk: only stream as those stable release CI continue after dec 2021 also | 15:59 |
| mnaser | #action mnaser work to find time for community deployment projects + centos/rdo team | 15:59 |
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| gmann | apevec: in that case we need to remove it again | 15:59 |
| apevec | yes but only in Dec ? | 15:59 |
| mnaser | (i need to close out at 11, i will end the meeting, but i think we can continue the discussion here) | 16:00 |
| noonedeadpunk | Yeah, I'd rather live with stable Centos until next release in CI while adding Stream as NV jobs | 16:00 |
| gmann | yeah we can continue after meeting too | 16:00 |
| mnaser | (another meeting :<) | 16:00 |
| noonedeadpunk | to see how it's going | 16:00 |
| mnaser | #endmeeting | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Technical Committee office hours: Tuesdays at 09:00 UTC, Wednesdays at 01:00 UTC, and Thursdays at 15:00 UTC | https://governance.openstack.org/tc/ | channel logs http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Dec 10 16:00:31 2020 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2020/tc.2020-12-10-15.01.html | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2020/tc.2020-12-10-15.01.txt | 16:00 |
| mnaser | noonedeadpunk: that's a good proposal too | 16:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2020/tc.2020-12-10-15.01.log.html | 16:00 |
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| mnaser | noonedeadpunk, jrosser, yoctozepto, apevec, weshay|ruck: i'll reach out to find a reasonable time for y'all and reach out to other projects that might be affected soon :) | 16:01 |
| jrosser | mnaser: thanks! | 16:02 |
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| apevec | thanks all! | 16:02 |
| noonedeadpunk | much appreciated :) | 16:02 |
| weshay|ruck | mnaser++ | 16:02 |
| fungi | worth noting, ubuntu lts versions don't entirely "roll" they do at least mark point releases within them over time as well | 16:02 |
| yoctozepto | mnaser: thanks | 16:02 |
| jrosser | normally in a community deployment project we'd try to have a transition release supporting both operating system release N and N+1 | 16:03 |
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| yoctozepto | fungi: yeah, but having ubuntu lts installed and updating it is closer to having centos stream than centos point releases | 16:03 |
| jrosser | i'm not really sure how thats going to happen here | 16:03 |
| mnaser | jrosser: i think changing to stream is just changing the repo name | 16:03 |
| yoctozepto | but yeah, somewhere inbetween indeed | 16:03 |
| mnaser | and update | 16:03 |
| yoctozepto | ++ | 16:03 |
| fungi | jrosser: that's what we would do between centos 8 and centos 9, but not between centos 8.2 and centos 8.stream | 16:04 |
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| noonedeadpunk | yeah, just main concern for me with stream now is to see how often it is going to be broken | 16:04 |
| gmann | yeah with major version only | 16:04 |
| gmann | noonedeadpunk: ah that is good point | 16:04 |
| noonedeadpunk | and so it does not block our work as for now at least | 16:04 |
| fungi | jrosser: we didn't do a coordinated overlapping transition from centos 8.1 to 8.2 for example | 16:05 |
| gmann | so let's try it on master for another 3-6 month and then take call for victoria | 16:05 |
| apevec | noonedeadpunk, yes, there are no guarantees TBH, no QA is 100% | 16:05 |
| apevec | but with Stream will be able to hook up more public CI | 16:05 |
| mnaser | centos 8.2 to 8.3 broke just as much, but i guess "bigger less breakages" vs "smaller more breakages" might be the balance | 16:05 |
| noonedeadpunk | apevec: I was thinking more about merging of breaking changes | 16:05 |
| gmann | adding stream as non-voting on master to check stability and then move it to voting + remove centos8 ? | 16:05 |
| jrosser | fungi: no indeed, but bionic->focal would be one of those, and there certainly seems to be a perception (possibly incorrect) that c8 -> c8s is a similar step | 16:05 |
| noonedeadpunk | yeah exactly mnaser | 16:05 |
| jrosser | i think thats a comms/marketing issue hearing stuff here today though | 16:06 |
| fungi | jrosser: we equate centos 8 to ubuntu focal or opensuse 15 | 16:06 |
| apevec | noonedeadpunk, TBH it's culture thing, package maintainers even in Fedora are not used to PR in Pagure | 16:06 |
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| apevec | we do have Fedora Zuul CI and some maintainers are very happy with it | 16:06 |
| apevec | and use it before merging | 16:06 |
| yoctozepto | noonedeadpunk: I understood stream is going to move in the redhat pipeline so that it is stabler than it used to be | 16:07 |
| yoctozepto | apevec is that right | 16:07 |
| apevec | the same testing infra will apply in c9s | 16:07 |
| apevec | so future is bright! | 16:07 |
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| noonedeadpunk | I think the point here is what are they testing. As with change you usually do change test to fit new behaviour | 16:07 |
| yoctozepto | it always is; the tunnel has light at its end | 16:07 |
| apevec | yoctozepto, yes, RHEL CI has good plans | 16:08 |
| noonedeadpunk | but you also need to adjust tooling behind this upgrade to fit new behaviour | 16:08 |
| yoctozepto | apevec: hopefully they will be realised to their full extent! | 16:08 |
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| * gmann need to move to nova meeting | 16:08 | |
| zbr | to enable mirroring on 8-stream I added https://review.opendev.org/c/opendev/system-config/+/766499 | 16:10 |
| apevec | thanks zbr | 16:17 |
| smcginnis | mnaser: Just confirming - I did not check the box when setting up the polling, so I do not have access to full details of votes. | 16:18 |
| smcginnis | I think the intent with that part of the process was to make sure the community could find out which TC members voted for a name. | 16:18 |
| smcginnis | Presumably to know whether or not to reelect them next time if they were not happy with the results. :) | 16:19 |
| smcginnis | So I think we can maybe have TC members just state which names they voted for, even if they don't recall how they ranked them? | 16:20 |
| fungi | accountability from elected officials? what is this, a functional government? | 16:20 |
| fungi | ;) | 16:20 |
| smcginnis | Not sure. I did mess that up, so if the TC feels we should correct the problem, I'm fine setting up a new poll and starting over. | 16:20 |
| smcginnis | Not that I'm proposing we do that (or that I particularly want to do that) but not sure how else to fix things if it's felt that is a problem. | 16:21 |
| mnaser | smcginnis: first off, thank you for just taking the time to _actually_ work through getting this done | 16:23 |
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| mnaser | so honestly, that's already a lot that i personally appreciate that you're driving | 16:24 |
| mnaser | with regards to a resolution -- i'm not too sure, i suspect that we didn't even get enough votes because of the holidays :x | 16:26 |
| mnaser | so i am wondering if it might make sense to run it again (with the right options), a bit later when more tc members are not out for vacation/holidays -- that way we can actually get a proper response | 16:26 |
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| smcginnis | We could. The foundation has already started the vetting process though. If we decide to do a do-over, I should let them know ASAP to stop. | 16:29 |
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| smcginnis | On the other hand, the dates were published awhile ago, so even for the folks taking vacation, it should have been no surprise that this was taking place. | 16:30 |
| mnaser | smcginnis: ah i didn't know it was that far in, ok, well, i mean i think most of us might be able to remember our top choices | 16:32 |
| mnaser | but maybe not the ranking accurately | 16:32 |
| mnaser | so maybe just a fair 'hey these were my preferences at the time' and trust that we're all humans and any errors are not bc lack of transparency but .. memory :) | 16:32 |
| smcginnis | I think (hope) that would be enough. | 16:33 |
| smcginnis | The rough ETA was we should have final all-clear by next week. | 16:33 |
| smcginnis | I gave them the link to results, but only pointed out the first two names. | 16:33 |
| smcginnis | There were really three in third place, so I think if it comes to that, then we can do another poll as a tie breaker. | 16:34 |
| mnaser | that's fair | 16:35 |
| jungleboyj | smcginnis: ++ That sounds like a fair plan. | 16:35 |
| mnaser | smcginnis: i can send an email to ML explaining (or maybe you already did, or perhaps you can) and then TC members can reply to that thread recording what they voted to what they best recall | 16:35 |
| smcginnis | I can send that now. Good to be transparent there. | 16:36 |
| * jungleboyj has nothing to hide! :-) | 16:36 | |
| mnaser | and then we'll just keep that next to the poll results which i think we post inside the governance change when we add the new name | 16:36 |
| smcginnis | Sounds like a plan. | 16:36 |
| mnaser | link to an ML thread is probably easier kept than eavesdrop | 16:36 |
| mnaser | ok, thank you so much. perhaps shoot if you could shoot a message once that's out so those who have more eyes on IRC can check it out too | 16:37 |
| smcginnis | Drafting now... | 16:37 |
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| smcginnis | OK, sent. | 16:53 |
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| jungleboyj | smcginnis: Thank you! | 18:07 |
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| spotz | I hope you're happy jungleboyj! I've got the song stuck in my head! | 18:26 |
| jungleboyj | Sorry. Seriously, that was why I couldn't do it. | 18:27 |
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| zaneb | +1 for this plan: <mnaser> so maybe just a fair 'hey these were my preferences at the time' and trust that we're all humans and any errors are not bc lack of transparency but .. memory :) | 21:11 |
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| gmann | mnaser: this is +w but not merged yet due to depends-on but for bringing back the retired repo we need to remove these from legacy file too - https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/765800 | 22:10 |
| mnaser | ah good catch, it was gonna probably break then .. i think | 22:11 |
| gmann | yeah.I think we should extend the script to check if any repo exist in both file. | 22:12 |
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