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| jungleboyj | Wow. I didn't know that a whole domain could be sold like that and it doesn't like it should be possible. | 01:29 |
|---|---|---|
| fungi | welcome to the american-owned internet icann was supposed to fix | 01:43 |
| zaneb | selling a domain isn't a big deal (though ICANN has to approve it iiuc). the issue is that (1) it's .org, and (2) there's a distinct whiff of shady post-soviet-oligarchy-style... nepotism, if not actual corruption, to the whole thing, at least as far as anyone can tell given the very limited information that has been released | 01:50 |
| fungi | also it's a top-level domain for (ostensibly) non-profit/noncommercial and other non-government organizations, so many folks feel it should be run in a not-for-profit manner rather than as a money-making enterprise | 01:54 |
| fungi | something isoc was supposed to be doing | 01:54 |
| fungi | now the nonprofit overseer of that tld wants to sell it off | 01:55 |
| fungi | and it seemed like icann was just going to let them, until sufficient public outcry turned it into a public relations debacle for them | 01:56 |
| jungleboyj | Yeah, I agree that it should be a non-profit thing. Seems like a conflict of interest to have it owned by a for profit group. | 01:57 |
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| mnaser | tc-members: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/user-committee/2020-February/thread.html seems like no uc candidates came up and the dead line was 4 days ago | 08:07 |
| mnaser | maybe we should work with the uc to drop the count down to 2 spots | 08:08 |
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| ttx | mnaser: Yeah, I discussed options with them, and they are leaning toward accelerating merging with the TC | 09:23 |
| ttx | In the mean time they will likely operate with unassigned seats | 09:23 |
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| mnaser | ttx: ok, cool, thanks for actually looking into that. | 09:55 |
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| evrardjp | folks, I am sick today, so I won't be able to focus during the office hours. I will catch up later. | 12:23 |
| ttx | evrardjp: get better soon! | 12:54 |
| njohnston | o/ | 13:04 |
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| ricolin | ttx IIRC, it's board's decision to approve the merge action, right? | 13:35 |
| * ricolin just wondering if there's anything we can propose this in board meeting next month https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/Foundation/17March2020BoardMeeting | 13:38 | |
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| gmann | o/ | 13:47 |
| mnaser | we can bring it up but there is a lot of legalities that would go around it | 13:52 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance-sigs master: Show `status` in SIG table https://review.opendev.org/708568 | 13:55 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance-sigs master: Update K8s SIG link https://review.opendev.org/708567 | 13:56 |
| gmann | i suggest we convert the UC to SIG (may not be new SIG but accommodate their tasks into existing SIG ). and SIG governance to TC only. | 14:03 |
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| ricolin | just saw UC meeting discuss about merger too, http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/uc/2020/uc.2020-02-20-13.30.log.html#l-39 | 15:00 |
| jungleboyj | o/ | 15:03 |
| jungleboyj | evrardjp: Hope you feel better. | 15:03 |
| fungi | there might be ways to tackle it without bylaws changes | 15:03 |
| jungleboyj | Too bad about no UC candidates. | 15:03 |
| fungi | but maybe not ways lawyers agree with | 15:03 |
| jungleboyj | Good to see that the UC is open to merging. Too bad that that isn't a n easy solution. | 15:13 |
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| fungi | i did a quick comparison of current tc members to the user committee electorate, and 10 of the 13 tc seats are currently occupied by "users" (taking the uc's official definition of an active user contributor) | 15:40 |
| fungi | also anecdotally i believe at least 4 of you are current or former openstack cloud operators (probably more?) | 15:40 |
| zaneb | speaking of bylaws changes, Appendix 10 2(c) switches from talking about the User Committee to the Technical Committee and back again in mid-paragraph. copy-paste fail | 15:43 |
| smcginnis | I operate my basement cloud. :D | 15:43 |
| zaneb | https://www.openstack.org/legal/user-committee-member-policy/ | 15:43 |
| zaneb | fungi: how can you tell if you are an AUC? I had it on my summit badge for ages (no idea why), but it eventually disappeared (no idea why, or if they stopped doing it) | 15:45 |
| fungi | you would have to manually check all the various criteria | 15:45 |
| jungleboyj | I have operated clouds in some capacity. | 15:46 |
| fungi | jungleboyj: yeah, i was counting you | 15:46 |
| jungleboyj | :-) | 15:46 |
| fungi | however, the uc member policy says that the uc gets to decide the criteria for being an auc, so if we merged the tc and auc definitions (by making aucs extra-atcs) then i think we could satisfy the uc member policy requirements | 15:46 |
| fungi | the other relevant bit of the bylaws is https://www.openstack.org/legal/bylaws-of-the-openstack-foundation section 4.14 which outlines the responsibilities of the uc | 15:47 |
| fungi | which are basically to oversee working groups which are not overseen by the tc and board (easy of the tc oversees those working groups, the set is empty), to nominate a uc chair, and... nothing else | 15:48 |
| jungleboyj | Awww, if I die I am removed from the TC. :-( | 15:49 |
| zaneb | what I'm hearing is that if 3 of us could be coerced to volunteer as UC members, then the UC effectively becomes a subcommittee of the TC, all the bylaws are satisfied, and nobody has to actually do anything | 15:49 |
| fungi | yeah, try not to do that | 15:49 |
| jungleboyj | What will my ghost do? | 15:49 |
| fungi | zaneb: basically that, yep | 15:50 |
| fungi | zaneb: if more than 5 people want to be on the uc that's where it gets trickier, but i think we could treat the tc election as also being the uc election and then have some way of identifying a 5-person subset who make up the official user committee from the perspective of eth bylaws | 15:51 |
| jungleboyj | fungi: That sounds good to me. | 15:51 |
| fungi | obviously all this would still need to be run by the board of directors to keep it on the up-and-up, and there's a distinct chance they and or osf legal counsel might disagree with this interpretation | 15:52 |
| zaneb | sounds like a fair voting method that could be determined by the UC :) | 15:52 |
| jungleboyj | In the case that the UC becomes more active then it isn't hard to make it no longer a subset. Right? If nothing is changing legally. | 15:52 |
| zaneb | although I think we've conclusively established that nobody at all *wants* to be on the UC | 15:52 |
| fungi | yeah, but in reality the uc has non actual responsibilities which can't be abdicated (other than some organizational formalities), so being on the uc can (and in reality has in the past) be a no-op | 15:53 |
| fungi | we could just say the top n results in any tc election fill the open uc seats, and then the "uc" seat occupants pick a "chair" from their ranks, and it's done | 15:55 |
| zaneb | I don't even think we need to be that formal | 15:56 |
| zaneb | keep running the UC election as usual | 15:56 |
| zaneb | if there are empty slots, pressgang the n highest-ranked AUCs in the TC election | 15:56 |
| fungi | well, uc candidates just have to be osf individual members, not even aucs | 15:57 |
| zaneb | elect a chair, and hold a quarterly meeting at which you do nothing | 15:57 |
| jungleboyj | Such a focus on doing nothing. | 15:57 |
| zaneb | ah, only AUCs get to vote, but anyone can stand | 15:58 |
| zaneb | so the n highest-ranked TC members from the TC election get pressganged | 15:59 |
| fungi | similar to the tc seats, you don't have to be an atc to run for a seat on the tc, but you do have to be an atc to vote in the tc election | 16:00 |
| zaneb | yeah, I think we did actually have one candidate for the TC once who wasn't an ATC | 16:03 |
| zaneb | it didn't go well for him | 16:03 |
| TheJulia | I think it is a mistake to press-gang TC into UC. It sounds like the by-laws may need to be revisited. What is really depressing though is I actually nudged people to run for UC and they both didn't because they thought someone else was better qualified and was going to run. | 16:04 |
| njohnston | that's a shame | 16:05 |
| TheJulia | It is one of numerous realities | 16:05 |
| TheJulia | The reality of many seats is once people are burnt out, they don't want to fill them. | 16:07 |
| njohnston | Well, dating back to the days of Edgar and Shilla the UC has been a solution in search of a problem. I would love to find them a problem that would energize the UC, but that seems exceptionally unlikely to happen at this point. | 16:10 |
| TheJulia | This causes my mind to pivot to the question of how do we excite contributors and users in general | 16:12 |
| gmann | or merge in Operator community which is much closure to what UC does/suppose to do. They are active on ops-meetup etc. | 16:13 |
| fungi | yeah, i don't want to say the uc members don't do anything (much like tc members they do lots of stuff without wielding the authority of their elected position), but the body of the uc itself effectively has few responsibilities, none of which are critical | 16:14 |
| zaneb | if we ditched SIGs and made them all WGs again, the UC would have something to do ;) | 16:14 |
| fungi | in theory the uc has joint governance of sigs | 16:14 |
| gmann | yeah. | 16:14 |
| TheJulia | gmann: The feelings I've gotten from operators is they want to and intend to remain independent, and they provide a good feedback loop as long as there is cross engagement, problem is actually getting that engagement to happen tends to time or money. | 16:15 |
| fungi | so again it's something they could do, but it boils down to picking a sig-meta liaison helping approve sig additions and removals | 16:16 |
| fungi | which are very infrequent | 16:16 |
| gmann | those tasks like SIG ownership etc has to move to TC completely. | 16:16 |
| fungi | and it's also not anything required in the bylaws | 16:16 |
| fungi | so fairly easy to change without years of back-n-forth with lawyers and getting a full vote of all osf member classes | 16:17 |
| TheJulia | fungi: always better in that case | 16:17 |
| gmann | what operators can do is cover the users feedback to community which is mainly connects to users to community and they stay as independent without regular time based expectation. | 16:17 |
| fungi | as much as i agree with you, TheJulia, that osf bylaws would ideally reflect reality, altering those is decidedly nontrivial and may not be worth the cost (in everyone's time, and also in legal fees) | 16:18 |
| TheJulia | I wonder if we've actually figured out the best way to engage that community because they have also reached some strong consensuses that counter to the development side of the community. ie. twitter over mailing list. | 16:19 |
| TheJulia | fungi: totally agree with you | 16:19 |
| fungi | so if there's a way to do this without bylaws changes, i think we should. if we decide we *can't* solve this without updating the bylaws, that's another thing entirely | 16:19 |
| TheJulia | ++ | 16:20 |
| gmann | other challenge is on local user groups engagement. Not sure how we can keep them actively engaged? where we can delegate that which is key mission of UC. | 16:22 |
| fungi | the uc hasn't been doing that either (and also they're not expected to unless the board explicitly asks, per the bylaws) | 16:23 |
| fungi | but the reason i don't mind the idea of basically dissolving the uc, even as a user myself and a strong proponent of other users of openstack, is that the current body of atcs have been consistently electing users and operators to fill seats on the tc already | 16:23 |
| fungi | so it seems to me like user and operator concerns are already well represented in the makeup of the tc without needing to artificially prompt it | 16:24 |
| gmann | but their mission says that irrespective of how much it was done. ' The User Committee works with user groups worldwide to keep the community vibrant and informed.' - https://governance.openstack.org/uc/reference/charter.html#mission | 16:24 |
| TheJulia | ++ and trying to carry forth yet another thing with different perceptions means more context switching for people which is not ideal. | 16:25 |
| fungi | gmann: yep, also the uc has the ability to change their mission | 16:25 |
| fungi | and they haven't been actually doing the things listed in their mission | 16:25 |
| TheJulia | The needful seems to be to limit scopes and tasks to with-in sustainable constraints. | 16:28 |
| TheJulia | We are after all, only human and juggling many different things. | 16:35 |
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| gmann | zaneb: fungi diablo_rojo_phon what you think on this quick start page to add as entry point in CONTRIBUTING.rst - https://review.opendev.org/#/c/708939/ | 18:08 |
| zaneb | I like that | 18:10 |
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| diablo_rojo_phon | zaneb: gmann will look later. all day meeting and not around a computer ATM. | 21:03 |
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