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| asettle | o/ | 10:47 |
|---|---|---|
| asettle | njohnston, all been there | 10:48 |
| asettle | At least it isn't your password | 10:48 |
| asettle | I've typed that into openstack-doc twice | 10:48 |
| evrardjp | I don't know how I manage to not have that happen to me yet. I guess luck | 10:55 |
| evrardjp | (the passwords I mean) | 10:55 |
| evrardjp | I got lucky in the wrong typing I guess | 10:56 |
| asettle | I made the mistake (twice) of thinking my laptop was locked, typing in my password while the screen was black to open it... but it wasn't locked, and I just typed into the open window, which just so happened to be IRC ... twice | 10:56 |
| evrardjp | twice! | 10:56 |
| evrardjp | haha | 10:57 |
| evrardjp | ;) | 10:57 |
| evrardjp | I am unlocking with Control in general | 10:57 |
| evrardjp | maybe that's the solution -- proper unlocking. Though it wouldn't save njohnston here :p | 10:58 |
| asettle | No, unfortunately :P | 10:59 |
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| mugsie | njohnston: it is also #openstack-dns :P | 12:22 |
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| smcginnis | evrardjp: Is Control some package I haven't heard of yet? | 12:30 |
| evrardjp | haha no just a key on your keyboard. instead of starting by typing username or pass ! ;) | 12:39 |
| evrardjp | I am sad to not have a magic package now | 12:40 |
| smcginnis | :) | 12:44 |
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| smcginnis | Did the patch land for changing the way we name releases? | 12:45 |
| smcginnis | Now that V is done, I'd like to volunteer to get W moving before we're so late. | 12:46 |
| smcginnis | Ah, yep - https://review.opendev.org/#/c/695071/ | 12:48 |
| smcginnis | That just changes the electorate. Wasn't there a proposal to change the naming process to allow anyone to propose a name, as long as it starts with the designated letter? | 12:49 |
| smcginnis | Oh, if I actually scrolled down far enough I could answer myself. | 12:50 |
| smcginnis | Good talk. | 12:50 |
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| evrardjp | :) | 13:01 |
| evrardjp | that reminds me that I need to do some typo fixes there | 13:02 |
| smcginnis | I was just going to propose a patch adding my name for W. I got the s/maner/manner/ typo in that. Was there more? | 13:03 |
| openstackgerrit | Jean-Philippe Evrard proposed openstack/governance master: Fixing typos https://review.opendev.org/702411 | 13:04 |
| evrardjp | the length | 13:04 |
| evrardjp | You can most likely do your patch above mine, as the typo fix should be merged quite easily with one approval. | 13:05 |
| smcginnis | OK, that one seemed pretty clear, but I can make it more verbose. | 13:06 |
| evrardjp | yeah if you like. Or I can drop my patch, I don't mind :p | 13:06 |
| openstackgerrit | Sean McGinnis proposed openstack/governance master: Begin the 'W' release naming process https://review.opendev.org/702414 | 13:11 |
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| gmann | o/ | 13:28 |
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| zaneb | evrardjp, asettle: need some clarification about OpenSUSE version numbers on https://review.opendev.org/693743 | 14:33 |
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| openstackgerrit | Sean McGinnis proposed openstack/governance master: Begin the 'W' release naming process https://review.opendev.org/702414 | 14:39 |
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| jroll | nice, thanks for starting that smcginnis | 15:08 |
| smcginnis | Always nice once you have a name chosen. ;) | 15:09 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Fixing typos https://review.opendev.org/702411 | 15:22 |
| asettle | zaneb, commenting, because it's super vague. we're looking into it. | 15:25 |
| asettle | zaneb, only to 3.6 - verified on the package list. | 15:30 |
| zaneb | ah yep | 15:30 |
| smcginnis | Cool, then the current list should be good. | 15:30 |
| zaneb | I was looking at python instead of python3 and I read 2.7 as 3.7 | 15:30 |
| evrardjp | 2.7 is so ancient | 15:31 |
| asettle | zaneb, aye, I did the same thing at first. | 15:31 |
| evrardjp | welcome to the packaging world! | 15:31 |
| asettle | \o/ | 15:31 |
| evrardjp | we love our support and maintenances! | 15:31 |
| smcginnis | Oh wait, the question was whether to include 3.7 or just have 3.6 and 3.8. | 15:32 |
| zaneb | why are y'all still shipping that antediluvian stuff? ;) | 15:32 |
| zaneb | what's the plan for 15.2 and do we think it will be released before the end of Ussuri? | 15:33 |
| asettle | oh god no | 15:33 |
| asettle | I'll check, but that's my initial reaction | 15:33 |
| evrardjp | smcginnis: wodewick, wodewick! | 15:33 |
| evrardjp | zaneb: didn't I answer there? | 15:34 |
| evrardjp | let me paraphrase then | 15:34 |
| zaneb | evrardjp: you want me to *read* now? | 15:34 |
| smcginnis | pfft | 15:34 |
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| evrardjp | If my memory serves well, 15.2 out around May this year, python3.6 (3.8 for the crazy ppl) | 15:35 |
| asettle | evrardjp, zaneb - Apr 24 for GMC, May 4 for GM, and Jun 22 for Launch | 15:35 |
| evrardjp | no promises as it could as well move to 3.7, but I think the idea is to say "what's the state now", which is fair to say 3.6 + 3.8 | 15:35 |
| zaneb | we're trying to say what the state will be at the end of Ussuri/beginning of Victoria | 15:36 |
| evrardjp | asettle: is that for opensuse or SLE? if it's for opensuse maybe we should edit the wiki, not sure if it's up to date | 15:36 |
| zaneb | but yeah, it sounds like no 3.7 | 15:36 |
| asettle | evrardjp, SLE | 15:36 |
| zaneb | not that we *can't* test it (we still have Bionic) but sounds like it's unnecessary | 15:37 |
| smcginnis | I would *really* hope if we are testing 3.6 and 3.8, 3.7 tests would just be redundany. | 15:37 |
| evrardjp | mmm let's wait before editing the wiki then :p | 15:37 |
| smcginnis | *redundant | 15:37 |
| evrardjp | smcginnis: agreed | 15:37 |
| evrardjp | SUSE has something on 3.7, tumbleweed, if necessary | 15:37 |
| evrardjp | but I would inclined to say, let's just do 3.6 and 3.8, and it should work | 15:37 |
| zaneb | oh, I remember why 3.7 is in there | 15:42 |
| fungi | bionic has supported packages for 3.7 | 15:43 |
| evrardjp | wasn't it because of rh and/or bionic? | 15:43 |
| fungi | it's just not the default | 15:43 |
| zaneb | functional tests will still be running on 3.7 at the beginning of Victoria | 15:43 |
| evrardjp | oh in _there_ as in the PR | 15:43 |
| evrardjp | my bad | 15:44 |
| fungi | looks like there's already 3.8 in bionic too: https://packages.ubuntu.com/bionic-updates/python3.8 | 15:44 |
| evrardjp | darn why did I say PR? too much time on github | 15:44 |
| dirk | hi | 15:44 |
| evrardjp | hey dirk | 15:44 |
| zaneb | unless we are planning to update all integration tests to Focal during Ussuri? | 15:45 |
| zaneb | which afaik we are not | 15:45 |
| evrardjp | could you check a little above or in the patchset to confirm 3.6/3.8 is enough for SUSE? | 15:45 |
| evrardjp | (or if we absolutely need 3.7) | 15:45 |
| evrardjp | (Magic of something from factory landing in 15.2 for example, compared to the current 3.6 plan) | 15:46 |
| fungi | looks like focal (20.04) is due april 23. ussuri release is targeting ~3 weeks after that, we'll already be at rc1 when focal is officially available | 15:46 |
| fungi | so yeah, there's zero chance of ussuri being tested on focal | 15:47 |
| fungi | victoria can (and likely should) target focal though | 15:47 |
| evrardjp | I think that's what's proposed in the patch | 15:47 |
| fungi | as that will be the most recent ubuntu lts release at the start of the victoria cycle | 15:47 |
| zaneb | yeah, so according to our process we can drop 3.7 during Victoria development, after we have migrated the integration tests to Focal | 15:48 |
| zaneb | I'll update the patch to make that explicit | 15:48 |
| mugsie | yeah, we define the OS before the start of the cycle, so it shouldn't change mid cycle. we can start tests on focal during the ussari cycle | 15:48 |
| smcginnis | And I think Cory has been doing some 3.8 testing, so hopefully that's not too painful of a transition. | 15:48 |
| evrardjp | smcginnis: he voted on the current plan positively | 15:48 |
| evrardjp | so I suppose it's fine for him already :p | 15:49 |
| fungi | well, we can add 3.8 jobs on bionic if that helps the transition | 15:49 |
| zaneb | I believe coreycb's plan was to add a non-voting 3.8 job to the Ussuri template as soon as it is available in bionic | 15:49 |
| mugsie | I like that ^ | 15:50 |
| evrardjp | Do you think what we are doing is maybe a little bit too inflexible, and we should think about relaxing the wording about what we decide is part of the PTI? | 15:50 |
| dirk | evrardjp: no need for python 3.7 | 15:50 |
| mugsie | evrardjp: nope | 15:50 |
| dirk | evrardjp: 3.6 and 3.8 are good | 15:50 |
| evrardjp | dirk: ok thanks for confirming! | 15:50 |
| dirk | I'll try to comment on the review | 15:50 |
| evrardjp | dirk: thanks! you are aware of the convo that's already good enough for me :) | 15:51 |
| evrardjp | zaneb: mugsie IIRC, there was some kind of pushback | 15:51 |
| zaneb | no there wasn't | 15:51 |
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| coreycb | zaneb: I'll add non-voting 3.8 to the ussuri template. I think this will need to get merged first: https://review.opendev.org/#/c/693401/ | 15:58 |
| zaneb | oh right, I forgot this was what we were waiting on | 15:59 |
| mugsie | coreycb: I think we can merge it anyway, as we are in agreement that 3.8 is going to be one of the versions? | 15:59 |
| mugsie | no point holding up over TC red tape ? | 15:59 |
| coreycb | mugsie: works for me if it works for the TC | 16:00 |
| fungi | yeah, 3.8 has been available in bionic at least since november, per bug 1835737 | 16:00 |
| openstack | bug 1835737 in python3.8 (Ubuntu Eoan) "SRU: backport Python 3.8 to bionic" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1835737 | 16:00 |
| zaneb | mugsie: I agree, but hopefully we can get the TC one done in the next few days as well now that we have a release name | 16:00 |
| evrardjp | zaneb: if you don't update the patch, and put an extra patch on top for typo-fixes, it might help on the date. | 16:02 |
| evrardjp | though it was updated yesterday so it doesn't change really much | 16:03 |
| openstackgerrit | Zane Bitter proposed openstack/governance master: Declare supported runtimes for Victoria release https://review.opendev.org/693743 | 16:17 |
| zaneb | ok, this version should be a *lot* clearer ^ | 16:18 |
| clarkb | zaneb: I'm not sure that you want to pin ussuri to centos 8.0 and opensuse 15.1. Both distros require you to upgrade as they make minorreleases and our testing systems will reflect that | 16:24 |
| clarkb | I think the old version stating 8 and 15 was accurate and the minor version will float depending on when the distros release | 16:24 |
| evrardjp | clarkb: it's not about pinning, it's about being explicit to what was there at the time of the writing | 16:26 |
| fungi | yeah, the time will come when centos 8.0 is no longer supported (in favor of later 8.x versions), and that will probably be well within the lifetime of the stable/ussuri branch | 16:26 |
| evrardjp | so at that time we had the decision to support what's on x, which is the equivalent of python y | 16:26 |
| fungi | opendev will cease to provide centos 8.0 images likely soon after centos 8.1 happens | 16:26 |
| clarkb | fungi: within 24 hours if our image building is not broken | 16:27 |
| fungi | yep, same with opensuse 15.1. we just say we provide centos 8 and opensuse 15 | 16:27 |
| evrardjp | I think we should remove the distros from the equation tbh | 16:27 |
| evrardjp | please don't put this sentence outside of this context :p | 16:27 |
| evrardjp | I would like to keep my job. | 16:28 |
| evrardjp | hahaha | 16:28 |
| fungi | to be honest, it's the same with ubuntu, they just choose to increment a third version component instead of a second one, so 18.04.0 gets replaced by 18.04.1 gets replaced by 18.04.2 and so on silently in our environment | 16:28 |
| fungi | so saying a branch supports ubuntu 18.04 is like saying it supports centos 8 or opensuse 15 | 16:29 |
| evrardjp | correct, but 18.04 is expected to have less changes than 8.0->8.1 or 15.0->15.1 | 16:29 |
| fungi | is it? | 16:29 |
| evrardjp | in terms of python versions, I believe so | 16:29 |
| clarkb | I mean its fine with me, but the infra team will not offer centos 8.0 and 8.1 concurrently | 16:29 |
| fungi | those are all long-term stable releases. the stable component of ubuntu is the x.y whereas for opensuse and centos it's just the x | 16:29 |
| clarkb | nor opensuse 15.1 and 15.2 | 16:29 |
| evrardjp | I think it depends on the definition of stable release but you're right. | 16:31 |
| evrardjp | clarkb: I agree on that, and I am not sure someone else said otherwise | 16:31 |
| evrardjp | clarkb: am I correct to say that your concern is raised due to how we can read this pti page | 16:32 |
| zaneb | clarkb: it's stating the current version at the *beginning* of the release cycle, so 8.0 and 15.1 is correct imho | 16:34 |
| evrardjp | If we removed the distros listing from the PTI, and we just agreed that we need to test minimum version x, it would simplify everything... | 16:35 |
| evrardjp | we would just contact the main distros, and evaluate what's the minimum version at the beginning of the cycle | 16:36 |
| zaneb | evrardjp: it helps people figure out where those decisions came from though | 16:36 |
| mugsie | I think the distros is important as well, for people who want to build based on OSes that have ad tests run on htem | 16:36 |
| evrardjp | we could document it. My point is that we are not in a juggle dance like we had to be in the past | 16:36 |
| fungi | zaneb: if we list the second version component of opensuse and centos, we should list the third version component for ubuntu lts | 16:37 |
| evrardjp | mugsie: I can see a value in that | 16:37 |
| fungi | ubuntu lts doesn't increase the second version component but does increase the third | 16:37 |
| evrardjp | I don't agree on that, because it's a different definition of stable across the distros :) | 16:38 |
| fungi | in that case we should stop claiming we support distros, i agree | 16:38 |
| zaneb | fungi: Centos also has a third component and I think that would be meaningless | 16:39 |
| fungi | the goal was to provide an indication of what we could support over the lifetime of the stable branch | 16:39 |
| smcginnis | It has been a good data point for choosing what versions to support. Granted, that may slow down now that we're just on Python 3 and there's a more regular release cadence for newer version, but I think it still helps to set some expectations. | 16:40 |
| zaneb | minor versions of CentOS and Leap can have different python versions, so it makes sense to list major.minor | 16:40 |
| evrardjp | fungi: in that sense leap 15.1 is incorrect, as only 15 matters here. However, I don't think that was the intent. I thought the intent was only listing the current version at the beginning of the cycle, no more no less. | 16:40 |
| fungi | we can't support opensuse 15.1 over the lifetime of stable/ussuri if they're going to stop supporting 15.1 and replace it with 15.2 at some point (same for centos 8.0 or ubuntu 18.04.1) | 16:40 |
| evrardjp | smcginnis: but a minimum python version would do the same | 16:40 |
| fungi | what are we communicating to users with that? | 16:40 |
| zaneb | in no case do z releases have different versions of python, so there's no point listing that | 16:40 |
| zaneb | fungi: we're communicating that we chose Python 3.6 because it was the default in CentOS 8.0 and Leap 15.1, which were the current releases at the time we made the decision | 16:41 |
| evrardjp | I think what matters in this sentence, is that we don't imply keeping 15.1 or 8.0 forever in the cycle, assuming it's superseded by 8.1/15.2 | 16:43 |
| fungi | got it, so we're going to say somewhere else what distros we'll keep the corresponding stable branches working with | 16:43 |
| evrardjp | do we? | 16:43 |
| zaneb | fungi: yes, I don't think the TC needs to get involved in that | 16:43 |
| fungi | the pti used to be where we stated that | 16:43 |
| fungi | before we started adding python version info | 16:44 |
| evrardjp | oh I see now where the reading is different :) | 16:44 |
| clarkb | right the python selection came from the distros we supported | 16:44 |
| fungi | now it's become more about what python versions are supported, but there's a lot more to the operating system which openstack needs (c libs like libvirt, stuff like qemu, whatever) | 16:45 |
| clarkb | and the distro selection specified what distro a given branch was expected to run on over its life | 16:45 |
| clarkb | and that is what we tested that brnach on | 16:45 |
| evrardjp | fungi: that was handled by projects (libvirt for example) | 16:45 |
| fungi | and more importantly, *continue* to test the branch on | 16:45 |
| fungi | evrardjp: it was handled by the projects based on guidance from the tc | 16:45 |
| evrardjp | I don't disagree | 16:46 |
| fungi | like, nova makes sure that the minimum libvirt version it supports includes the lts distro versions the tc mandates | 16:46 |
| clarkb | this is a major reason we don't support the shorter lived distros releases like fedora and ubuntu non lts | 16:46 |
| clarkb | beacuse we expect to run tests on stable for longer than those distro lifespans | 16:46 |
| fungi | if the tc is saying it's okay for nova to require people to download and compile newer libvirt, that'll get fun | 16:46 |
| evrardjp | fungi: I think it's a little bit more organic than that, before the time SUSE was listed in the PTI, nova folks were asking which version SLE was shipping as libvirt... | 16:47 |
| fungi | yep, but at a minimum they needed to support the versions on the pti platforms | 16:47 |
| evrardjp | organic is maybe not the right term | 16:47 |
| zaneb | https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/project-testing-interface.html#linux-distributions lists "Latest CentOS Major" as the criterion, so that would argue for not including the minor version on the per-release page I guess | 16:48 |
| fungi | yep, it was worded that way intentionally | 16:48 |
| fungi | for that reason | 16:48 |
| fungi | because opendev wouldn't (couldn't) support multiple minor versions because centos themselves wouldn't | 16:49 |
| zaneb | my concern is that someday CentOS 8.6 (or whatever) is released and the default Python is now 3.12 (or whatever) instead of 3.6. at that point just saying "CentOS 8" seems inadequate | 16:51 |
| evrardjp | zaneb: if we rephrase this as being a minimum python supported version, that could remove some concerns | 16:52 |
| evrardjp | I would say that for now, we should remove the .1 from 15.1 and .0 from 8.0 | 16:53 |
| clarkb | historically we've nevr had that problem | 16:53 |
| evrardjp | ofc | 16:53 |
| clarkb | even with python3 releases | 16:53 |
| smcginnis | "Why isn't this crap working with Python 3.9?!!" | 16:53 |
| evrardjp | clarkb: but we are moar agile now | 16:54 |
| clarkb | usually new python versions are added | 16:54 |
| fungi | also if that happens, our options realistically are either to say the branch can no longer support that distro *or* fix the branch to work with the newer version of python that distro has switched to | 16:54 |
| clarkb | they aren't replacements | 16:54 |
| evrardjp | clarkb: I expect my joke did _at least_ make you smile | 16:54 |
| clarkb | evrardjp: its too early :P you are probably into your second beer but I've only had one cup of tea :) | 16:55 |
| gmann | how about adding another section in runtime to mention the exact version(with minor version) we tested at the end of cycle. which we can update during cycle release. | 16:55 |
| gmann | along with min required testing versions | 16:55 |
| evrardjp | gmann: the problem is EM | 16:55 |
| evrardjp | or just before EM, that's far | 16:55 |
| evrardjp | :p | 16:55 |
| zaneb | clarkb: historically we haven't had that problem because 2.7 was around forever | 16:56 |
| zaneb | past performance is not a guarantee of future results | 16:56 |
| evrardjp | zaneb: you sound like a banker | 16:56 |
| clarkb | zaneb: sure, but we've also had python3 around for a long time | 16:56 |
| clarkb | and its never been an in place replacement on the distros we support | 16:57 |
| clarkb | new python versions have always been additive | 16:57 |
| clarkb | it seems weird to optimize for ap roblem we've never had | 16:57 |
| clarkb | if instead we do run into the problem later then fungi's point is important | 16:57 |
| zaneb | but our judgement is based on the default | 16:57 |
| clarkb | we either stop testing on that distro or we update anyway | 16:57 |
| zaneb | it is explicitly not the plan to support 3.6 as the default for 10 years | 16:57 |
| clarkb | zaneb: will it be available for ten years? | 16:57 |
| evrardjp | aren't we all saying the same things? | 16:58 |
| fungi | it's doubtful openstack will support ussuri for 10 years either, even in extended maintenance | 16:58 |
| fungi | we struggle to support stuff for 2 years after release | 16:58 |
| zaneb | clarkb: not supported AIUI. lemme find the doc 'cos I'm making stuff up at this point | 16:58 |
| evrardjp | Also, if it's broken, we'll have to fix stuff. So what? | 16:59 |
| evrardjp | Is that a bad thing to fix our code to support more python versions? | 16:59 |
| smcginnis | And if it can't be reasonably fixed, it goes EOL. | 16:59 |
| evrardjp | even in a stable branch | 16:59 |
| clarkb | evrardjp: no, but then we shouldn't be afraid of saying we support centos 8 | 16:59 |
| evrardjp | I think we are fine on that level | 16:59 |
| clarkb | really my concern is that if we say 8.0 then in 2 years everyone running victoria will intentionally install 8.0 and run unsupported unpatched vulnerable linux for openstack | 17:00 |
| clarkb | then when they have problems they will blame us | 17:00 |
| evrardjp | I don't think this was the intent | 17:00 |
| clarkb | if instead we say 8, then there is a better chance they will update (as we should too for testing anyways) and people will be happier | 17:00 |
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| gmann | but we might not be testing the latest 8.x so i think it is better to mention both min version we started and max version we ended during that cycle. | 17:01 |
| clarkb | gmann: we will test on latest 8.x or we will stop testing on 8 | 17:01 |
| gmann | or even list of all 8.x we tested during that cycle to be very explicit. | 17:01 |
| clarkb | at least that is all infra can offer | 17:02 |
| gmann | clarkb: yeah in case distro release more minor version we skip few in between. | 17:02 |
| gmann | so if our testing runtime doc get updated with all those tested one that will be explicit for users even they check this after 2-3 years | 17:03 |
| openstackgerrit | Jean-Philippe Evrard proposed openstack/governance master: Declare supported runtimes for Victoria release https://review.opendev.org/693743 | 17:07 |
| evrardjp | zaneb: clarkb fungi gmann smcginnis , as you were interested ^ | 17:07 |
| fungi | thanks! | 17:08 |
| evrardjp | I rephrased to not only list the LTS distro, but also clarify the start version of python, which is the input for the next section. | 17:08 |
| zaneb | that wfm | 17:09 |
| evrardjp | In other words, I added notes. | 17:09 |
| evrardjp | thanks zaneb | 17:10 |
| zaneb | evrardjp: actually what do you think about doing it the way I have it in the commit message? that keeps it in the Python section and out of the top-level section | 17:11 |
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| evrardjp | I was fine for that too. I didn't want to plagiarize | 17:13 |
| evrardjp | haha | 17:13 |
| zaneb | lol | 17:13 |
| evrardjp | feel free to edit :) | 17:13 |
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| openstackgerrit | Zane Bitter proposed openstack/governance master: Declare supported runtimes for Victoria release https://review.opendev.org/693743 | 17:16 |
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| openstackgerrit | Zane Bitter proposed openstack/governance master: Declare supported runtimes for Victoria release https://review.opendev.org/693743 | 17:18 |
| zaneb | that solves another problem as well | 17:18 |
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| openstackgerrit | Ghanshyam Mann proposed openstack/governance master: Update charter for the TC elections date & Term clarification. https://review.opendev.org/699277 | 19:29 |
| gmann | tc-members: updated the charter change patch ^^ to 1. address the zaneb comments in election dates 2. add the para to mention about election to be held for situation where no candidate to fill the vacant seat. | 19:31 |
| gmann | not sure if those needs to be proposed separate. I updated in single patch as both are related one. | 19:32 |
| gmann | tc-members: I removed my WIP from 'Contributors guide' community-wide goal selection patch. - https://review.opendev.org/#/c/699313/ | 19:33 |
| gmann | evrardjp: would you like to add the approval date in this with consideration of min required vote - https://review.opendev.org/#/c/699313/ | 19:35 |
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| openstackgerrit | Ghanshyam Mann proposed openstack/governance master: Update charter for the TC elections date & Term clarification. https://review.opendev.org/699277 | 20:04 |
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