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| fungi | office hour is upon us once more | 01:02 |
|---|---|---|
| zaneb | o/ | 01:02 |
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| ricolin | tc-members, FYI here's result for U release naming http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-August/008624.html | 01:07 |
| zaneb | ricolin: thanks! | 01:09 |
| fungi | thanks for your hard work ricolin! (and also to those who labored on it before) | 01:11 |
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| ricolin | thanks zaneb fungi :) | 01:28 |
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| gmann | thanks ricolin. | 04:50 |
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| ttx | o/ | 07:10 |
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| asettle | Thanks ricolin :D | 08:31 |
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| ricolin | asettle, gmann thanks:) | 09:00 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/project-team-guide master: Use promote for publishing https://review.opendev.org/677545 | 10:40 |
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| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed openstack/governance master: Name releases after major cities https://review.opendev.org/675788 | 14:41 |
| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed openstack/governance master: Name releases after the ICAO alphabet https://review.opendev.org/675788 | 14:41 |
| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed openstack/governance master: Ask the Foundation to name releases https://review.opendev.org/675788 | 14:41 |
| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed openstack/governance master: Name releases after random words https://review.opendev.org/675788 | 14:41 |
| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed openstack/governance master: Clarify the existing release naming process https://review.opendev.org/675788 | 14:41 |
| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed openstack/governance master: Stop naming releases https://review.opendev.org/675788 | 14:43 |
| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed openstack/governance master: Name releases after major cities https://review.opendev.org/677745 | 14:43 |
| asettle | omg what's happening | 14:43 |
| corvus | i messed up a rebase :) | 14:44 |
| asettle | HAHA corvus ya freakin' me out man | 14:44 |
| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed openstack/governance master: Name releases after the ICAO alphabet https://review.opendev.org/677746 | 14:44 |
| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed openstack/governance master: Ask the Foundation to name releases https://review.opendev.org/677747 | 14:44 |
| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed openstack/governance master: Name releases after random words https://review.opendev.org/677748 | 14:45 |
| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed openstack/governance master: Clarify the existing release naming process https://review.opendev.org/677749 | 14:45 |
| asettle | corvus, do you often refer to things as condorcet? | 14:45 |
| corvus | asettle: it's how i prefer my elections, yes :) | 14:46 |
| asettle | I do enjoy how declarative this is. | 14:47 |
| corvus | since 'stop naming releases' doesn't seem to be a winner, i've tried to push up a change for each of the ideas that have come up, along with one or two others that i thought of | 14:48 |
| corvus | (or at least, 'stop naming releases before z' doesn't seem to be a winner -- after z may be a different story) | 14:48 |
| asettle | In fairness to the objections (including my own) discussion should be had before dropping the system before the system is complete. In theory, U is the perfect time to discuss next steps. Not drop the hot potato. | 14:49 |
| asettle | I'm not convinced the best way to have that discussion is via 6 separate patch suggestions. | 14:50 |
| fungi | well, it provides a clear set of options to discuss | 14:50 |
| asettle | That it does. | 14:51 |
| asettle | Can't deny that. | 14:51 |
| fungi | (as well as a way to provide feedback for each one individually) | 14:51 |
| corvus | asettle: i hear that -- my own view is more akin to 'rip the bandage off', but i certainly see the appeal of trying to get to Z (i shared that view until recently) | 14:51 |
| asettle | Dispersed feedback over 6 different patches is inevitably going to become convoluted and confusing, fungi | 14:51 |
| asettle | I'd prefer this was in a centralised location for it all to be collated at once. So it can be seen. | 14:51 |
| asettle | corvus, ohh you reformist, you. | 14:52 |
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| corvus | well, i did set all their topics to 'release-naming' | 14:52 |
| asettle | And I reset them :) | 14:52 |
| fungi | it's akin to how we approached the "driver teams" debate, where there were a bunch of possibilities to evaluate | 14:52 |
| asettle | fungi, are "driver teams" usually done through a series of patches? | 14:52 |
| corvus | my idea was to send out a message asking folks to review each of these, leave indicative votes, and then in a week come back and see which ones are good/bad/need refining, then ask the tc to vote on (perhaps a reduced set of) final choices | 14:53 |
| fungi | no, we discussed the possibility of forming specific recognized teams around driver projects, and that's how we organized the discussion | 14:53 |
| asettle | fungi, that sounds a little more organised. | 14:53 |
| corvus | i think we've already had a centralized discussion about this on the mailing list; that's where these ideas came from | 14:53 |
| corvus | now we need a way to find out whether they have any support from the community and the tc | 14:54 |
| fungi | because there were a lot of different ways we could approach making drivers official projects or not, so writing each one up as a formal proposal was helpful in comparing each | 14:54 |
| asettle | corvus, I'm not sure I would have called the dissolution of the voting process into a debate a centralised discussion. No decisions were made to change the way things are currently done | 14:54 |
| asettle | fungi, do we have this written down anywhere? | 14:54 |
| corvus | asettle: i understand no decisions have been made, i'm attempting to help drive us to a decision to change | 14:55 |
| asettle | corvus, I do see that. You're going real fast. I'm not sure my little governance brain is catching up the way I'd like it to. | 14:55 |
| asettle | You're driving a merc and I'm over here in my Toyota pickup | 14:55 |
| asettle | NOW | 14:55 |
| asettle | Okay | 14:55 |
| fungi | asettle: there is a record of the discussions we had around the possibility of allowing driver teams, which would have required we loosen some of our requirements for what it means to be an official team. the discussions we had around those options were the record | 14:55 |
| asettle | -.- | 14:56 |
| asettle | I love this place | 14:56 |
| asettle | Okay, so to clarify the two discussions we're having here | 14:56 |
| asettle | 1. This is corvus coming in and attempting to generate discussion and solutions (cool cool cool) | 14:57 |
| fungi | 2. and the way he's going about it is similar to the way we discussed options for making drivers official openstack projects | 14:57 |
| asettle | 2. We don't have a formalised way of actually making these changes (?) other than the previously discussed "driver teams" | 14:57 |
| asettle | ... thank you fungi :) | 14:57 |
| asettle | I have nothing against doing it this way, as long as we're all in agreeance that this is the way we're going and we see it as a fair and able way for everyone to have their say. | 14:58 |
| fungi | i was providing precedent for holding a discussion this way, by relating it to a similar discussion we had about a different topic a couple years ago | 14:58 |
| asettle | My concerns would be that we may lose feedback in the reviews and not everything cna be considered. Of course, same thing can be said for the ML | 14:58 |
| asettle | fungi, makes sense. | 14:58 |
| fungi | in the case of the drivers discussion, there was a corresponding ml thread which laid out the options and linked to the proposed alternative resolutions for each option | 14:59 |
| asettle | You wouldn't happen to know when that was so I don't have to spend 36 hours deep diving through the archives? | 14:59 |
| fungi | but in the end we chose to not pass any resolution because none had sufficient backing, so we instead stuck with the status quo as defined in our project requirements document | 14:59 |
| fungi | i can get a reference | 14:59 |
| fungi | just a sec | 15:00 |
| corvus | it's nice that a precedent is handy, but i don't think we need a precedent | 15:00 |
| asettle | Thansk fungi :D | 15:00 |
| asettle | corvus, we don't. But if there's something already in place, or that would potentially be received better by ~others~ then I'd rather go the path of slightly less resistance | 15:00 |
| asettle | I'm a sensitive flower | 15:00 |
| fungi | mostly trying to counter asettle's concerns that having multiple competing proposals isn't a way to have a debate | 15:00 |
| fungi | asettle: i don't know what you mean by "in place" i'm just saying we've used this pattern to debate issues in the past | 15:01 |
| asettle | Which is fair :) | 15:01 |
| asettle | Coolio hoolio | 15:01 |
| asettle | Look, honestly, I should express I'm really not that stressed about it :D I'm just... looking at it and well, yeah, concerns | 15:01 |
| fungi | if we documented every possible way of having a discussion then i don't think we'd ever have time for actual discussions | 15:01 |
| corvus | asettle: one of the options is the status quo | 15:02 |
| asettle | fungi, heh | 15:02 |
| asettle | corvus, I did see that. | 15:02 |
| fungi | asettle: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-November/108074.html | 15:02 |
| asettle | Gracias amigo | 15:03 |
| fungi | that was how we framed the discussion in that case | 15:03 |
| corvus | ok -- it just occurred to me that you may be concerned that i pushed up 6 proposals to change things without the decision to change having been made, but the status quo option is a place to say "i don't want anything to change" | 15:03 |
| asettle | ^^ bingo | 15:03 |
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| asettle | I would like to avoid the status quo, because like yourself, I believe something needs to change. But we haven't had any discussion ABOUT a change, other than a slightly rollercoaster debate about the U naming | 15:04 |
| asettle | And then the subsequent comments on your initial patch | 15:04 |
| corvus | there were several suggestions for alternates in the ML thread too | 15:05 |
| asettle | That there was. | 15:05 |
| mugsie | I like the citie one personally (for covering us until Z anyway) | 15:05 |
| mugsie | cities* | 15:05 |
| asettle | But again, no actual decision to change anything of such. Perhaps corvus it would be good to start a thread suggesting it's time we discuss what happens after Z on the back of the U discussion | 15:05 |
| asettle | So it's formally begun | 15:06 |
| * asettle makes dramatic arm gestures to the ceiling | 15:06 | |
| asettle | mugsie, I agree. But hey | 15:06 |
| asettle | the naming convention is a bit of "we should do x y... oh look a squirrel! and the name for the U release is UNICORN" | 15:07 |
| corvus | asettle: you have said in a few words what i have been barely able to express in hundreds :) | 15:07 |
| corvus | i'm not sure i'm the best person to drive the post-z discussion; i'm most concerned about v-z | 15:07 |
| asettle | I do my best at short notice | 15:07 |
| asettle | You can hire me for christmas parties and bah mitzvah's | 15:08 |
| asettle | corvus, alright, I'll do you a deal. You start a thread formally on what to do vor v-z and offer your options off the back of the U discussion | 15:08 |
| asettle | And I'll start a separate thread when that Titanic effort is done regarding post Z | 15:08 |
| asettle | do for* | 15:08 |
| asettle | It's a good deal. Comes with a low 3% per annum. | 15:10 |
| corvus | asettle: so i know what i'm agreeing to, are you asking me to abandon my openstack/governance proposals? | 15:12 |
| asettle | Hmmm. Not exactly. I think if you write the email such that you explain you extracted these solutions from the U thread, it would come across a lot less like we've pre-determined solutions without letting the community speak | 15:13 |
| corvus | that sounds reasonable. i'll be sure to let folks know they can leave feedback in the ML thread or on the individual changes, and all will be considered | 15:14 |
| asettle | Cool, that's great thanks corvus :) | 15:17 |
| asettle | corvus, if we end up with vasectomies I personally put that on you :p | 15:39 |
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| openstackgerrit | Zane Bitter proposed openstack/governance master: Align release naming process with practice https://review.opendev.org/677771 | 15:53 |
| openstackgerrit | Zane Bitter proposed openstack/governance master: Clarify proscription of generic release names https://review.opendev.org/677772 | 15:53 |
| zaneb | it felt like we didn't have enough reviews on this topic... | 15:53 |
| * asettle side eyes zaneb | 15:54 | |
| asettle | Bro | 15:54 |
| asettle | Y u do dis | 15:54 |
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| asettle | We JUST decided corvus would send an email and OUT you come | 15:54 |
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| zaneb | I wasn't watching IRC because I was busy drafting those changes :) | 15:56 |
| asettle | zaneb, ya killin me | 15:56 |
| asettle | tc-members - could we maybe nottt propose anymore ideas to fixing the name conventions until corvus sends an email detailing the fact that we're seriously discussing changes in the first place? | 15:57 |
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| mnaser | i (think) multiple goverannce patches is a good idea to have folks vote on the change that makes the most sense to them | 16:04 |
| asettle | Totally. But can be *please* make this clear to the community that we're actually officially starting this discussion and it's not just something we're flipping out of thin air. | 16:05 |
| mugsie | yeah, but we need to broadcast it more, and allow people suggest ideas (the ML works for this), rather than a fait acompli of "choose from these 6" | 16:05 |
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| mnaser | right, i was under the assumption that we'd push out an email about this to the ML soon so the community at large wants to voice their opinion | 16:06 |
| asettle | mnaser, discussion with corvus resulted in him agreeing (sorta?) to send out the email to initiate that discussion. | 16:07 |
| mnaser | i figured as much, i was just commenting that multiple patches is an good solution to gather 'voting' towards one of the options | 16:07 |
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| mnaser | it's hard to gauge popularity of an option using ML posts or a single review | 16:08 |
| mugsie | yeah, lets get the list first, then worry about popularity | 16:12 |
| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed openstack/governance master: Name releases after random words https://review.opendev.org/677748 | 16:14 |
| corvus | okay, wow | 16:16 |
| corvus | i have sent the email | 16:16 |
| corvus | i'm sorry i didn't type fast enough to make everyone happy | 16:16 |
| corvus | that last patchset updates the random words with the output of the RNG. there are some obvious bad choices there, but also some perfectly bland ones. since it seems that one may have been unclear, the proposal is for the TC to pick from that random list. you are obviously not going to choose a bad one. just choose a good one and call it done. | 16:17 |
| corvus | zaneb: regarding your proposal -- while that seems a fine addition, it only explains one of the seven names which was removed | 16:19 |
| corvus | so it's a partial fix | 16:19 |
| zaneb | corvus: did you see both of my patches? | 16:19 |
| corvus | zaneb: yes, the second explains university. but not the 6 hanyu names. | 16:21 |
| corvus | zaneb: (though i think the second change could use a clarification) | 16:22 |
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| zaneb | corvus: I believe the first one explains why the rest of the names were removed. we received feedback (both on the mailing list and from Horace) that using GR transliteration was not culturally appropriate | 16:24 |
| asettle | Thanks for sending the email corvus | 16:25 |
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| corvus | zaneb: i believe that's still very much in doubt. i don't recall anyone saying it was offensive. i suspect that it may be difficult for me to fully understand the context there, but the way i read the feedback was that it was "unusual" or "unfamiliar". | 16:28 |
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| zaneb | the poll co-ordinator(s) decided it was inappropriate after receiving feedback. we can (but I won't) debate the exact nature and merits of the feedback, but it doesn't change the process | 16:32 |
| corvus | zaneb: that's the problem with this proposal -- it doesn't resolve conflict, it creates more. trying it on for size -- it doesn't adequately resolve the confusion around "U" because we can't even determine that it was offensive (or even inconsiderate). you heard something that i did not hear. it's guaranteed to create more conflict rather than less. | 16:38 |
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| mugsie | corvus: we did recieve feedback that that method of romanisation was not one that party liked, or had sactioned as the official one. we also recieved feedback that it wasn;t the case, but the supervisor went with the cautious route (which is fine) | 16:51 |
| corvus | mugsie: i'm not sure about "party liked" (i don't remember that one) but it is certainly not in dispute that it is not the official romanization -- we're all agreed on that. so the bearing this has on zane's proposal is that even after all that, it's unclear whether that makes it 'inconsiderate' or just 'unusual'. | 16:55 |
| corvus | so my argument is that rather than clearing this up, the change as written would not have avoided a discussion about whether the hanyu names on the poll should be removed | 16:56 |
| mugsie | it makes it a judement call? for which we have a TC, who appoints a poll supervisor, who makes the call about it being inconsierate, which is what happened? | 16:57 |
| mugsie | humans are squishy, random beings, that it are basically impossible to write hard and fast rules for, which is why things like parlements and TCs exist. | 16:58 |
| corvus | i agree, which is why asking a single person to evaluate suggestions like this is fraught with problems. we should be avoiding it altogether by using a completely different system which reduces the chances of contentious choices or discussions. this increases those chances by adding in more opportunities for disagreement. | 17:04 |
| corvus | the confusion around the hanyu names isn't that some people think it's offensive, and some people don't -- it's that we literally don't know if someone has said it's offensive or not. | 17:05 |
| corvus | (the fact that that very point was discussed at length before the entire process even began, and the tc agreed that they were not offensive, only for that to be reversed at the end only further illustrates the difficulty) | 17:06 |
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| cmurphy | diablo_rojo_phon: persia fungi i wanted to confirm that https://releases.openstack.org/train/schedule.html is correct and ptl nominations start next week? i haven't seen any communication about it and the election repo isn't set up with project placeholders for U yet | 18:06 |
| fungi | yeah, i guess we need to make the call to proceed with elections even though we don't have the cycle name nailed down | 18:11 |
| fungi | 661674 and 661675 should probably be updated (or used as examples for replacement changes and then abandoned) | 18:12 |
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| dhellmann | I think it's safe to go ahead with the election and just say "U" for now | 18:16 |
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| fungi | cmurphy: oh, though we did already approve the scheduling info and it's published to https://governance.openstack.org/election/ | 18:17 |
| fungi | so we mainly just need the placeholders change | 18:17 |
| fungi | (and communication, obviously) | 18:17 |
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| fungi | diablo_rojo has kick-started the discussion between the electionfolk at http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-August/008651.html and we should hopefully get communication underway asap | 19:34 |
| cmurphy | thanks fungi and diablo_rojo | 19:38 |
| fungi | i'm working on placeholder files change now | 19:41 |
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| diablo_rojo | cmurphy, no problem | 19:55 |
| diablo_rojo | fungi, is doing the real work ;) | 19:55 |
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| fungi | er, this will be less work than sending an e-mail | 20:11 |
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| fungi | hardest part was deciding whether to leave it named "u-TBD" or change it to "U" | 20:13 |
| corvus | i'm starting to think we should add another option to the release names discussion: "just use letters" | 20:14 |
| corvus | this isn't the first release where we've spent a very long time just calling it by its letter | 20:15 |
| fungi | and then after z we can switch alphabets ;) | 20:20 |
| corvus | or we can declare that it's ascii and switch to 'a' which is > 'Z', and put all our problems off for another 13 years. | 20:21 |
| fungi | after the [, \, ], _, and ` releases, i think you mean | 20:23 |
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| corvus | obviously! | 20:23 |
| fungi | oh, i missed ^ between ] and _ | 20:23 |
| fungi | see, naming *is* hard | 20:24 |
| corvus | ayup | 20:24 |
| openstackgerrit | Zane Bitter proposed openstack/governance master: Align release naming process with practice https://review.opendev.org/677771 | 20:40 |
| openstackgerrit | Zane Bitter proposed openstack/governance master: Fix formatting https://review.opendev.org/677820 | 20:40 |
| openstackgerrit | Zane Bitter proposed openstack/governance master: Clarify proscription of generic release names https://review.opendev.org/677772 | 20:42 |
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| openstackgerrit | Jeremy Freudberg proposed openstack/governance master: Name releases after ATCs https://review.opendev.org/677827 | 20:51 |
| fungi | ^ makes me wonder if the cycle after "u" will be the "vish" cycle | 20:53 |
| corvus | the thing i'm driving at in most of my proposals is to try to find a way where we can do less work, stay out of cultural trouble, and have fewer arguments about names. we all have so little time to do real work. | 20:58 |
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| fungi | i'm inherently lazy, so any proposal to do less unnecessary work gets my support | 21:10 |
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| corvus | asettle, stephenfin, amotoki: i've updated https://review.opendev.org/677028 to a final form which i think is mergeable. i think that's the smallest change which addresses the issues in building the nova docs in pdf. | 21:18 |
| amotoki | corvus: yes, my understanding is same but we need some more cleanup as I did for index.rst in https://review.opendev.org/#/c/676730/3 | 21:22 |
| corvus | amotoki: oh, you already solved all the problems | 21:23 |
| amotoki | corvus: I see many things to be improved in the nova pdf doc (from doc perspective). how do we move it forward? | 21:23 |
| corvus | i'm now unclear on what stephenfin and asettle asked me to do | 21:23 |
| corvus | amotoki: i didn't find that changes to index.rst were necessary | 21:24 |
| amotoki | corvus: I just tried nova doc as stephenfin said the latex builder does not work for nova doc. I just tried to apply my experiences on neutron. | 21:25 |
| amotoki | corvus: we need an assignee in nova, so you can continue the work if needed. for example, TOC in PDF file is a bift confusing. | 21:27 |
| amotoki | s/bift/bit/ | 21:27 |
| amotoki | many sections are located under Contributor Guide :( | 21:28 |
| corvus | amotoki: sorry, i don't have time to drive this for nova | 21:29 |
| corvus | i jumped in because stephenfin said he needed some latex help | 21:29 |
| amotoki | ah, I see. | 21:31 |
| corvus | amotoki: though i didn't come up with anything you hadn't already found, so it seems i'm superfluous :) | 21:31 |
| openstackgerrit | Jeremy Freudberg proposed openstack/governance master: Name releases after ATCs https://review.opendev.org/677827 | 21:31 |
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| amotoki | corvus: thanks anyway. I don't think it is so superfluous. we could double check them | 21:38 |
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| amotoki | corvus: btw, I am now working on store PDF doc file in the log dir (fetch-pdf-docs) in https://review.opendev.org/#/c/664555/. AJaeger suggested to work with you on how to do this as part of opendev/base-jobs. Your feedback would be appreciatd. | 21:45 |
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