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| openstackgerrit | Zane Bitter proposed openstack/governance master: Add Python3 update goal for Train https://review.opendev.org/657908 | 00:30 |
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| asettle | Mooorning o/ | 07:50 |
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| ttx | Re: removing https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/OpenStack_health_tracker -- it was mentioned as one of the rare places ops could use to assess maturity in https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/DEN-Operator-end-user-Public-cloud-feedback | 09:16 |
| ttx | (while health != maturity, I think we might want to address their need somewhere) | 09:17 |
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| mugsie | maturity is not easily measured - for some applications a project may be very mature, while for others, lacking. capturing that is very difficult, and really needs prospective deployers to do some background research | 09:44 |
| ttx | mugsie: totally agree, just mentioning that we'll be soon removing something they apparently used as part of that research | 09:55 |
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| mugsie | yeah, I wonder how we can help them move away from relying on things like ^ | 09:59 |
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| ttx | Maturity is really in the eye of the beholder. There is a reason why the adoption curve exists. | 10:02 |
| ttx | So beyond showing off users and % of adoption, not sure of what we can do really (beyond identifying the things that do not work at all and removing them) | 10:03 |
| mugsie | yeh | 10:03 |
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| smcginnis | Sounds like the project's fears that that health tracker would be interpreted in a way different than what it was intended were well founded. | 11:08 |
| asettle | We're smort like that, smcginnis ;) | 11:24 |
| mugsie | or lucky :P | 11:30 |
| mugsie | asettle: at some point today / tomorrow, I am going to try and drop a review on each service with the vision retrospective stuff, and stick it in an etherpad. do you want to send that email after I do that and link to the etherpad? | 11:31 |
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| asettle | Yep that sounds dandy. I only just re-started work today, so I'm in massive catch-up mode. The email would be sent tomorrow if anything. I'm fighting SAP right now. | 12:00 |
| mugsie | heh - I know the feeling. | 12:05 |
| asettle | Every now and then it just *freezes* | 12:05 |
| asettle | like. | 12:05 |
| asettle | I only have so much patience? And it's somewhat limited. | 12:05 |
| mugsie | I am surpised there is any left after a week in a PTG :P | 12:06 |
| asettle | I took two days off when I got home | 12:07 |
| asettle | I thought I'd be productive but all I ended up doing was sawing the cord for the hedge trimmer in half about 10 minutes into my hedge trimming... | 12:08 |
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| ttx | tc-members: One thing that we asked during PTG was ability to add our own TC questions to the user survey. I reached out to OSF staff in charge and that is definitely possible (think 1-2 questions per survey), but the new user survey is being publicized really soon now, so if we want to add questions for this one it would be great to come up with our questions before.... early next week or so | 12:41 |
| ttx | Can't really remember what we had in mind specifically but maybe someone remembers | 12:41 |
| fungi | one thing which came up was finding out what openstack services folks are deploying | 12:43 |
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| asettle | That was the main one, we also had an item about getting SIGs into the UC. But I'm not entirely too sure what the context was | 12:50 |
| asettle | All the note says is "Reach out to OSF/UC to increase contentquestion in user survey! | 12:50 |
| asettle | "And it's under the Action items for SIG governance | 12:50 |
| asettle | I wonder if ricolin remembers | 12:50 |
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| ttx | fungi: I think we already have that question (which components are you deploying) | 12:55 |
| fungi | yep, i thought so too | 12:56 |
| asettle | So I think the question wasn't answered if we did. Are we getting the right info from the way it is phrased? | 12:56 |
| fungi | but the fact that it came up as something we wanted the survey to address made me question my memory there | 12:56 |
| asettle | It was to do wit hthe evolution of the help-most-needed list. Hoping to get lists of companies associated with projects who may need more help. | 12:57 |
| asettle | So we would have the opportunity to reach out to them personally. Using Allison's idea | 12:57 |
| ttx | asettle: ah yes, so that was more about getting access to more data than the one showed in reports. That would likely be on a case-by-case basis due to anonymity requirements, but yes | 12:59 |
| fungi | oh, right, we wanted to know what projects a given respondent was contributing to (if any) | 13:00 |
| fungi | so we could try to match those up to the projects they were using | 13:00 |
| asettle | Yes, all that. I think we need to find out if we can get access, ttx ? And if so, what can we really do with it. | 13:01 |
| fungi | and see whether there was a correlation | 13:01 |
| asettle | But also an option if we could potentially add a question to the UC about contributing? Or perhaps something like "Are you aware of the help most needed list?" | 13:01 |
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| persia | Asking folk "are you aware of this" in the user survey is probably not ideal, as there are a limited number of questions and respondants have a limited amount of patience. | 13:22 |
| persia | "To which projects do you contribute" is an interesting question, and lots of good data mining can happen from that. | 13:23 |
| persia | Probably worth looking over the questions on the *last* survey as input on which questions on the *next* survey would help explain answers of interest. | 13:24 |
| fungi | since the user survey tends to be about a few people responding on behalf of others in their organization we might instead want to ask to which projects their organization is contributing, rather than the just projects contributed to by the individual respondent | 13:26 |
| mugsie | ^^ | 13:27 |
| dhellmann | we can find the organizations contributing to a project by looking at gerrit, but it might still be interesting to ask it as a way to nudge them to thinking about contributing to what they use | 13:27 |
| dhellmann | esp. if the contributing question comes immediately after the using question | 13:28 |
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| asettle | Good suggestion fungi | 13:34 |
| asettle | I'm just thinking out loud :) | 13:34 |
| asettle | dhellmann, yes exactly | 13:34 |
| mugsie | dot | 13:34 |
| mugsie | gha | 13:35 |
| asettle | ... u k there | 13:36 |
| smcginnis | mugsie: Making some drawings? :) | 13:37 |
| mugsie | yea - damn terraform is complex | 13:37 |
| ttx | So the main issue with accessing the "which company uses what" data is that it is submitted under a privacy promise -- TC members could access that data if they are OK to sign a confidentiality agreement (the UC members sign it), but we would not be able to openly discuss that data afterwards | 13:38 |
| asettle | Does that kinda... defeat the purpose of us gathering that data? We would, in theory, need to discuss the data found to be able to approach companies? | 13:39 |
| ttx | so it might be difficult to make it a "TC thing" | 13:39 |
| ttx | Our current approach is that we/OSF act as a proxy to contact the relevant companies in corner cases | 13:40 |
| asettle | So, in theory OSF could? | 13:40 |
| ttx | asettle: without the privacy promise we would get much less data and much more imcomplete statements | 13:40 |
| ttx | asettle: the OSF does. I did contact Ceilometer users when we had the leaderless situation lately | 13:40 |
| asettle | That's fair. I'm not suggesting we remove it, I'm just saying that us signing the privacy agreement would mean we'd not actually able to fulfil our promise/idea/plan | 13:41 |
| asettle | In theory, would we able to read the data and discuss with OSF? | 13:41 |
| ttx | yes | 13:41 |
| asettle | Ahhh | 13:41 |
| asettle | Okay | 13:41 |
| asettle | That changes it | 13:41 |
| ttx | TC members can access that data if they are OK with signing a confidentiality agreement, which would ask that they not discuss that data openly | 13:42 |
| ttx | It's a thin line to walk on -- we get a lot of answers based on the fact that this data is confidential | 13:43 |
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| ttx | User survey has a "is it OK to talk about your usage publicly" checkbox and not so many check that | 13:44 |
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| dhellmann | perhaps we want just 1-2 people to agree to sign so they can assist wendar contact those companies | 13:46 |
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| ttx | yeah, that would be good. FWIW fungi and me can probably already access that data, but if anyone else wants to sign things... | 13:48 |
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| persia | On data mining: it would be interesting to have summary data public, even if the specifics can't be. Things like: for each project, what percentage of consuming organisations are contributing organisations? Similarly, regression analysis to determine if there are interesting correlations between usage of and/or contribution to various projects and contribution to other projects. | 13:49 |
| persia | None of that should violate privacy, and I expect that for TC purposes, the names of the individual organisations don't matter that much. | 13:50 |
| asettle | ttx, maybe we just keep it at that. Would you and fungi be comfortable taking on that role that rides that line for us? Saves it getting potentially messy. | 13:50 |
| persia | asettle: It's probably worth considering the possibility that there may not be an overlap between foundation staff and TC members in the future. Doesn't require anything now, but does require consideration later if elections go a different way. | 13:51 |
| dhellmann | if we're going to try to do serious analysis of contributions, we need to be very clear about what a contribution is. because otherwise asking someone to self-report if they contribute is going to give us answers all over the spectrum. | 13:51 |
| asettle | persia, sure - but let's not over complicate the now. ttx will at least be in for another year. So that's a start, and once/if anything changes, we can reassess. | 13:52 |
| asettle | dhellmann, good point. Definitions are important here. | 13:52 |
| persia | I'm not sure that's a bad thing. We have the actual data of who contributes to what and how (or nearly so: affiliation is a tricky beast). Understanding how that is viewed is likely to help determine appropriate future messaging. | 13:52 |
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| fungi | sorry, catching back up on the conversation. i don't think the tc wants a list of which companies are using and contributing to what, right? instead we want to know whether projects are seeing contributions from the people who are using them (and also provide some nudging via this question to remind those taking the survey that's how open source works?) | 13:57 |
| fungi | so the responses don't need to be public, the analysis can be anonymized sufficiently | 13:58 |
| dhellmann | fungi : yes, that's what I thought we wanted. I don't think someone answering yes because the file bug reports is the sort of contribution we want them to be considering, though. | 13:58 |
| asettle | Yes - that's right fungi | 13:58 |
| dhellmann | *they file | 13:58 |
| fungi | sure, we can word it in such a way as to not indicate that filing bugs is what we're asking about | 13:58 |
| ttx | yeah, I guess that data could be produced and discussed using anonymized data | 14:00 |
| ttx | "Company Z" | 14:00 |
| persia | In conversation with various folk, I've heard the case that folk don't file bug reports, and instead just decide they don't like OpenStack. Let's not let our desire for organisations to contribute full-time development staff blind us to the entire range of useful contribution that lets us succeed. | 14:01 |
| ttx | although it would probably be trivial to deduce who is what | 14:01 |
| ttx | brb | 14:01 |
| persia | ttx: Or just ID numbers for companies, with no names. | 14:01 |
| persia | (and if we only have that data for a few of the questions, it is probably harder to deduce who is what) | 14:01 |
| dhellmann | if we only looked at the survey answers, yes, but we can get a list of contributing companies by looking at patches and reviews in gerrit | 14:02 |
| persia | Oh, heh, yeah, I suppose if we have different lists of "these are the projects to which our org contirbutes", and mine gerrit, except for apparent duplicates, we get all the names. | 14:03 |
| fungi | by "anonymized" i really meant "sufficiently generalized such that we can draw the conclusions we need with no ability to identify individual responses" | 14:15 |
| zaneb | I'd be interested in a checklist about how you contribute to OpenStack that includes bug reports, contributing code, reviewing patches/maintenance, docs | 14:16 |
| fungi | so in other words define the analysis we wish performed and have someone with access to the data perform that analysis and provide the results | 14:16 |
| persia | zaneb: Maybe two questions: one asking for the list of projects and the second asking the types of contributions? | 14:24 |
| zaneb | yes, they'd need to be separate | 14:24 |
| zaneb | I like dhellmann's push-polling idea too ;) | 14:24 |
| dhellmann | would we want them separate, or as 1 big matrix with contribution types for each project? I guess that might be asking for too much | 14:25 |
| zaneb | yeah, I think that's asking too much | 14:26 |
| dhellmann | we could probably deduce bug reporting affiliation for each project, too, the tools I built just don't do that | 14:26 |
| zaneb | tbh we know what projects companies are contributing to because contributions are public. the foundation could correlate that data already | 14:27 |
| zaneb | if we're going to add a question it's more to get users to think about that for themselves | 14:27 |
| dhellmann | yeah | 14:32 |
| ricolin | asettle, the `Reach out to OSF/UC to increase contentquestion in user survey!` is for asking again on how can we put SIGs' user question into user survey or anyother format | 14:42 |
| asettle | Ah right, sure. Thanks. | 14:50 |
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| lbragstad | o/ | 14:59 |
| zaneb | oh hey we have office hours | 15:00 |
| asettle | Waddduppp | 15:00 |
| ttx | yo | 15:02 |
| ttx | reiterating due to urgency: | 15:03 |
| ttx | tc-members: One thing that we asked during PTG was ability to add our own TC questions to the user survey. I reached out to OSF staff in charge and that is definitely possible (think 1-2 questions per survey), but the new user survey is being publicized really soon now, so if we want to add questions for this one it would be great to come up with our questions before.... early next week or so | 15:04 |
| ttx | If all we want is the anonymized contrib/company metrics, we don;t really need extra questions | 15:04 |
| dhellmann | ttx: do you have access to the wording for the current question about which projects are used? | 15:05 |
| dhellmann | brainstorming question wording in https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tc-user-survey-2019 | 15:05 |
| ttx | Let me ask aprice | 15:08 |
| ttx | IIRC people describe (potentially several) deployments and then check boxes | 15:08 |
| dhellmann | k | 15:09 |
| ttx | "Which projects does this deployment currently use, or are you interested in using in the future?" | 15:09 |
| dhellmann | ok | 15:09 |
| ttx | this provides three options: production, testing and interested | 15:09 |
| ttx | that is the question if the respondent indicates their deployment is in production | 15:09 |
| ttx | if it's a POC, the options are testing and interested | 15:10 |
| ttx | ok thanks! | 15:10 |
| ttx | oops wrong window | 15:11 |
| asettle | Classic. | 15:11 |
| ttx | "how would you describe your job ? | 15:11 |
| ttx | " | 15:11 |
| ttx | "I copypaste others responses between windows" | 15:11 |
| dhellmann | I write email. | 15:11 |
| ttx | dhellmann: that is next level shit! | 15:12 |
| ttx | I read email | 15:12 |
| dhellmann | 10x contributor | 15:12 |
| dhellmann | someone with a less muddled brain and better language skills please review https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tc-user-survey-2019 | 15:12 |
| ttx | if you have more questions, aprice is listening and can save me teh copypaste now | 15:12 |
| aprice | :) | 15:12 |
| ttx | I /think/ we tend to limit changes to wording because they introduce a skew in trending data | 15:13 |
| dhellmann | aprice, your input on https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/tc-user-survey-2019 would be great, those are just to get the ball rolling | 15:13 |
| ttx | (i.e. ability to compare results year over year) | 15:13 |
| aprice | wording changes to existing questions are also hard because of the effects on translation | 15:13 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I was hoping to phrase this new contributing question closely to the using question, rather than change anything old | 15:13 |
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| ttx | dhellmann: ah, additional question? That would definitely be fine | 15:14 |
| ttx | dhellmann: I like your wording fwiw | 15:14 |
| aprice | dhellmann: i like the wording. on the second question, I suggested adding "Other" with a text box to see what users contribute that we may not be proactively listing | 15:16 |
| dhellmann | ++ | 15:16 |
| aprice | on the second question, im getting a little stuck because the sponsoring of events is something that someone's organization would do, but the others are up to the individual. i proposed an edit | 15:18 |
| dhellmann | yeah, that's a good point | 15:18 |
| dhellmann | maybe the question should be "how do members of your organization contribute..."? | 15:18 |
| dhellmann | rather than "how do you..."? | 15:18 |
| aprice | yeah i like that | 15:19 |
| mugsie | yeah, "members of you org" is a good qualifier | 15:19 |
| dhellmann | do we want to list the PTG separately? | 15:20 |
| dhellmann | I reordered a bit to pull all of the in-person stuff together | 15:21 |
| dhellmann | do we want to list things like third-party CI, release management, and infra? | 15:22 |
| asettle | Considering we include those as teams in our docs, yes? | 15:23 |
| dhellmann | ah, that was specifically about question 2 | 15:23 |
| dhellmann | maybe including release and infra in question 1 is sufficient | 15:24 |
| * lbragstad makes a first pass at https://www.lbragstad.com/blog/openinfrastructure-summit-denver-technical-committee-summary | 15:26 | |
| * dhellmann adds lbragstad's post to his reading queue | 15:27 | |
| evrardjp | "All of the above" | 15:33 |
| aprice | dhellmann: lmk when the questions are final, and I can work with our team on getting them uploaded to the survey. we are hoping to have our big promotion push starting soon and this cycle will close at the end of August. | 15:38 |
| dhellmann | I wonder if we want to ask something like "if you do not contribute maintenance resources, why not?" | 15:38 |
| dhellmann | aprice : sounds good. I expect mnaser will want to look it over so he's at least aware of the questions | 15:39 |
| aprice | dhellmann: sounds good - feel free to ping me here if y'all need anything else or have any questions | 15:39 |
| dhellmann | thanks, aprice! | 15:40 |
| asettle | This looks good dhellmann and aprice | 15:41 |
| dhellmann | I'm not happy with line 10 yet | 15:41 |
| dhellmann | "What obstacles to contribution have you encountered?" | 15:42 |
| dhellmann | that presumes they've tried, though | 15:42 |
| asettle | You could go simple like... | 15:42 |
| asettle | "If you do not contribute any maintenance resources to a project, please explain why:" | 15:42 |
| asettle | [text box} | 15:42 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I was trying to be a little more indirect with the why bit | 15:43 |
| mugsie | "you are bad and should feel bad" | 15:43 |
| asettle | Maybe not "please explain why" cause it's kinda aggressive. | 15:43 |
| asettle | HAHAHAHA | 15:43 |
| asettle | mugsie, in summary | 15:43 |
| dhellmann | "we assume you want to, what is making it hard for you?" | 15:43 |
| asettle | Yeahhh but sometimes direct is best. If I was to read "what is the main obstacle" as a user, I might just be like :shrug: | 15:43 |
| asettle | I get why we don't want to be aggressive in a survey though | 15:44 |
| asettle | Just a note | 15:44 |
| dhellmann | how's that? | 15:45 |
| asettle | \ye | 15:45 |
| openstackgerrit | Colleen Murphy proposed openstack/governance master: Add caching as a base service https://review.opendev.org/658142 | 15:45 |
| mugsie | dhellmann: ++ | 15:46 |
| zaneb | mugsie: ROFL | 15:47 |
| dhellmann | I'm happy with these. If we don't get good answers, then next year we can as "which project would we have to deprecate to get you to start contributing?" | 15:49 |
| zaneb | ha | 15:50 |
| asettle | Hahhahah great | 15:50 |
| aprice | so do we need to include a "None" option for question 1 that would prompt line 12? | 15:50 |
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| zaneb | dhellmann: maybe ask what prevents you from contributing *more*? | 15:51 |
| dhellmann | aprice : I think with a "check all that apply" note having none selected would be ok? unless "None" is easier to tally somehow? | 15:51 |
| dhellmann | we do also want to know what might be preventing someone who does contribute from contributing *more* so I tried to phrase it that way | 15:52 |
| ttx | zaneb: I like that, less aggressive, same results | 15:52 |
| dhellmann | zaneb : I tried for that, but suggestions on wording welcome | 15:52 |
| zaneb | I'm suggesting we literally just shove the word 'more' between 'contributing' and 'maintenance resources' | 15:53 |
| dhellmann | maybe "or makes it difficult to contribute more?" at the end of line 12? | 15:53 |
| aprice | ah ok. i wonder if it could event be something around barriers instead of preventing? because preventing makes it sound like they dont contribute at all | 15:53 |
| dhellmann | ah, yeah, that simple edit works too | 15:53 |
| zaneb | added it in. feel free to rework | 15:53 |
| aprice | i like that | 15:54 |
| dhellmann | I like the "more" | 15:54 |
| asettle | More implies they're already contributing maintenance resources? Is that what we want to ask? | 15:56 |
| asettle | Do we not want to ask why they're not contributing at all? | 15:57 |
| asettle | or have I missed the point? | 15:57 |
| zaneb | it implies that we're not accusing them of contribution zero, but still asks them why they're not contributing more than zero :) | 15:58 |
| zaneb | typing is hard | 15:58 |
| asettle | Ah I get you | 15:59 |
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| openstackgerrit | Tim Burke proposed openstack/governance master: Add liberasurecode and pyeclib as Swift team deliverables https://review.opendev.org/657154 | 19:04 |
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