| *** jamesmcarthur has quit IRC | 00:27 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has joined #openstack-tc | 00:28 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has quit IRC | 00:29 | |
| *** dklyle has quit IRC | 00:42 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has joined #openstack-tc | 00:55 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has quit IRC | 01:06 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has joined #openstack-tc | 01:24 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has quit IRC | 01:28 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has joined #openstack-tc | 01:44 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has quit IRC | 01:48 | |
| *** whoami-rajat has joined #openstack-tc | 01:54 | |
| *** ijolliffe has quit IRC | 01:57 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has joined #openstack-tc | 02:04 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has quit IRC | 02:08 | |
| *** dklyle has joined #openstack-tc | 03:07 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has joined #openstack-tc | 03:19 | |
| *** dklyle has quit IRC | 03:21 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has quit IRC | 03:23 | |
| *** dklyle has joined #openstack-tc | 04:20 | |
| *** spsurya has joined #openstack-tc | 04:33 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has joined #openstack-tc | 04:34 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has quit IRC | 04:38 | |
| *** lbragstad has quit IRC | 04:57 | |
| *** e0ne has joined #openstack-tc | 05:03 | |
| *** e0ne has quit IRC | 05:03 | |
| *** dangtrinhnt has quit IRC | 05:56 | |
| *** dangtrinhnt_ has joined #openstack-tc | 05:56 | |
| *** dangtrinhnt_ has quit IRC | 05:57 | |
| *** dangtrinhnt has joined #openstack-tc | 05:58 | |
| *** Luzi has joined #openstack-tc | 07:21 | |
| *** e0ne has joined #openstack-tc | 07:35 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has joined #openstack-tc | 08:12 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has quit IRC | 08:24 | |
| *** tosky has joined #openstack-tc | 08:48 | |
| *** jpich has joined #openstack-tc | 08:54 | |
| *** ianychoi has quit IRC | 08:55 | |
| *** ricolin has joined #openstack-tc | 09:03 | |
| *** zaneb has quit IRC | 09:05 | |
| *** jpich has quit IRC | 09:27 | |
| *** jpich has joined #openstack-tc | 09:27 | |
| *** e0ne has quit IRC | 09:41 | |
| *** e0ne has joined #openstack-tc | 09:56 | |
| *** ssbarnea|rover has joined #openstack-tc | 10:02 | |
| *** ssbarnea|bkp2 has quit IRC | 10:04 | |
| *** ssbarnea|bkp2 has joined #openstack-tc | 10:08 | |
| *** ssbarnea|rover has quit IRC | 10:10 | |
| *** cdent has joined #openstack-tc | 11:10 | |
| *** ssbarnea|rover has joined #openstack-tc | 11:24 | |
| *** ssbarnea|bkp2 has quit IRC | 11:24 | |
| *** ssbarnea|bkp2 has joined #openstack-tc | 11:52 | |
| *** ssbarnea|rover has quit IRC | 11:54 | |
| *** Bhujay has joined #openstack-tc | 11:55 | |
| *** ssbarnea|rover has joined #openstack-tc | 12:38 | |
| *** ssbarnea|bkp2 has quit IRC | 12:39 | |
| *** e0ne has quit IRC | 12:59 | |
| *** e0ne has joined #openstack-tc | 13:20 | |
| *** mriedem has joined #openstack-tc | 13:53 | |
| *** e0ne has quit IRC | 14:14 | |
| *** ssbarnea|rover has quit IRC | 14:19 | |
| *** lbragstad has joined #openstack-tc | 14:20 | |
| *** ssbarnea|rover has joined #openstack-tc | 14:23 | |
| *** e0ne has joined #openstack-tc | 14:34 | |
| smcginnis | Office hours I believe. | 15:03 |
|---|---|---|
| evrardjp | it is | 15:04 |
| cdent | tc-members | 15:06 |
| mugsie | o/ | 15:06 |
| lbragstad | o/ | 15:06 |
| cdent | this office hours thing has rather tailed off | 15:07 |
| cdent | do we agree that the tc role email thread is done? anyone care to make some conclusions? | 15:07 |
| smcginnis | We need to order one of those flourescent blinking Open signs. | 15:07 |
| smcginnis | The thread seems to have trailed off. Not sure about any conclusions though. | 15:08 |
| cdent | lbragstad, evrardjp, mugsie : did you track the thread? | 15:10 |
| mugsie | I tracked it at teh start, but havent finished re-reading it | 15:10 |
| lbragstad | i did | 15:11 |
| cdent | it meandered | 15:11 |
| cmurphy | maybe some kind of resolution or doc update to vote on would be helpful? | 15:11 |
| cmurphy | i think without agreement on what the tc's role is, candidates don't necessarily know what they're really getting into | 15:11 |
| smcginnis | My take is unless the TC becomes something with more direct engagement or control in things, which I don't think folks actually want, we are going to continue to have these existential questions every so often. | 15:12 |
| lbragstad | the confusion about the name "technical" committee was brought up several times | 15:12 |
| smcginnis | That seems to be a recurring theme too. | 15:13 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 15:13 |
| mugsie | yeah, it is a good point. I have had to explain to people multiple time over the years that the TC does not "design openstack" | 15:14 |
| cmurphy | it does oversee technical decisions though | 15:14 |
| cmurphy | python versions, interop, etc | 15:15 |
| lbragstad | yep | 15:15 |
| cmurphy | project inclusion is kind of a part of designing openstack | 15:15 |
| smcginnis | Feeling any better dhellmann? | 15:15 |
| TheJulia | o/ | 15:16 |
| mugsie | yeah - I am not sure how to desicribe it ... it usually comes up with people asking "can you tell nova to fix $BUG" | 15:16 |
| dhellmann | smcginnis : yes, mostly, thanks | 15:19 |
| TheJulia | smcginnis: I've been kind of thinking the same. I really wish we could s/technical/governance | 15:19 |
| cdent | what's stopping us? | 15:19 |
| evrardjp | cdent: I realise I forgot to answer. Yes I tracked it. Not sure how I can transfer that to action item | 15:19 |
| TheJulia | cdent: I guess it would need to be voted on | 15:19 |
| lbragstad | if we omit technical in favor of governance, are we relinquishing technical decision we do make today? | 15:20 |
| lbragstad | decisions* | 15:20 |
| TheJulia | Do we really really really make them? | 15:20 |
| mugsie | I think we (or anoither similar body) needs to make some of them ... | 15:21 |
| dhellmann | why is this such a concern suddenly? | 15:21 |
| mugsie | e.g. Python verisions, goals etc need a central group | 15:21 |
| TheJulia | We make high level decisions, that lean towards governance of the community | 15:21 |
| TheJulia | I'm just thinking outloud I guess | 15:22 |
| evrardjp | dhellmann: good question | 15:22 |
| * TheJulia goes back to receipts | 15:22 | |
| cmurphy | almost all of https://governance.openstack.org/tc/resolutions/ look technical to me | 15:22 |
| lbragstad | my thoughts on the thread that cdent asked about is that people are still confused by the naming and what we do | 15:23 |
| dhellmann | well, we've written down what we think we ought to be doing, right? so we have something to point confused people to. let's get on with doing the things we do. | 15:24 |
| cdent | dhellmann: I don't think that's quite appropriate | 15:25 |
| cdent | the reason for writing it down was so we could evaluate it with people | 15:25 |
| cdent | and there are at least some people who think it is incomplete or needing clarification | 15:25 |
| cdent | if we ignore them, we're not really being elected representatives | 15:25 |
| dhellmann | what's missing? | 15:26 |
| cdent | that's what we're trying to talk about | 15:26 |
| cdent | to see if we can make any conclusions from what people said on the email thread | 15:27 |
| cdent | to figure out if there are next steps or additional questions | 15:27 |
| cdent | even amongst the TC (and alums) there seems to be some pretty big disagreements | 15:28 |
| dhellmann | what I see is people worrying about the name of the group being confusing | 15:29 |
| cdent | that's as far as we got in the discussion, but it had only just started | 15:29 |
| dhellmann | I'm sorry, but all I see is a bunch of angst, and I think it's time to move on from that. we were elected to use our judgement to decide what is important for us to do to help the community. I don't think renaming this group fits that criteria. | 15:30 |
| TheJulia | I feel like there are some conversations that are not well suited for an office hours type engagement, because mentally I'm not fully prepared on various opinions... as I've been traveling and hyper focused on some very specific work recently. | 15:30 |
| cdent | dhellmann: okay, then I'm sorry too, because what I see is you being unwiling to have these conversations | 15:30 |
| cdent | your habit is to try to make them stop | 15:30 |
| cdent | which is disconcerting in a group that is supposed to be as inconclusive and open as this one | 15:31 |
| cdent | people want to talk about this, some of the time | 15:31 |
| dhellmann | worrying endlessly about whether we're doing the right thing is a waste of energy and time, not leadership. | 15:31 |
| cdent | not if we're doing the wrong things | 15:31 |
| dhellmann | if we're doing the wrong things, we'll hear about that | 15:31 |
| cdent | we've been hearing about it for 4.5 years | 15:32 |
| dhellmann | I'm not suggesting we shouldn't consider carefully what we do, but if all we ever do is consider and we never do then there's no real point | 15:32 |
| dhellmann | so let's get on with it -- what do you want to change? | 15:32 |
| cdent | but I think it's been consistently ignored | 15:32 |
| cdent | (I say 4.5 years because that's all the years I've got to count) | 15:32 |
| cdent | jesus, this is so circular | 15:32 |
| dhellmann | I'm not seeing any new concerns raised in that ML thread. Did I miss something concrete? | 15:33 |
| cdent | you keep asking me what _I_ want, and you know what I want: I want us to adapt to the needs of the community | 15:33 |
| cdent | right there aren't any new concerns because the concerns are the same as they have always been, to which we have not adjusted | 15:33 |
| TheJulia | feedback loops tend to be. I think this is neither the tiem nor place to have a serious discussion about this if we want to actually have such a serious discussion. We should have a specific time where we're all able to fully engage mentally that is not the office hours time. | 15:33 |
| *** Luzi has quit IRC | 15:34 | |
| evrardjp | cdent: sorry to be blunt here: but the needs of the community have been far more clear on the "community goals" than on this thread | 15:34 |
| cdent | TheJulia: Yeah. That's fair. I'm worn out by this and have other obligations. I'm trying hard to continue to care, but it's perhaps time to stop | 15:35 |
| cdent | evrardjp: I agree, but I'm not sure how that's relevant? | 15:35 |
| evrardjp | if we have to spend time on something for the community is... imo... it's healthiness and it's possible growth | 15:35 |
| evrardjp | I guess I am lost in translation in this whole conversation | 15:35 |
| TheJulia | evrardjp: I think it also requires distinct points of view to really perform translation | 15:36 |
| dhellmann | I am trying to get cdent to make a specific concrete proposal about something that *contributors* to the project want that we could do but have not done | 15:36 |
| mriedem | i believe i said in denver at the last ptg that i thought the tc should work with the ops and uc teams to figure out the top 1 or 2 things they'd like to see get done in openstack, for which no individual contributor is championing, and work on those things, like the goals evrardjp pointed out | 15:38 |
| dhellmann | which is, ironically, what I asked you all to think about at our last meeting in December | 15:38 |
| mriedem | those would be things specific groups of users/contributors/operators have said they need but aren't being fulfilled | 15:39 |
| evrardjp | mriedem: I would just add on that... that we need to make sure they are achievable before starting to take the top 1-2 | 15:39 |
| evrardjp | else it could give a wrong message, but we agree :) | 15:39 |
| lbragstad | dhellmann i raised my views in the channel shortly after (i probably should have put it on the ml though =/) | 15:39 |
| dhellmann | evrardjp : sometimes deciding that a top item cannot or will not ever be done is the way to resolve the discussion (see the multi-year topic related to log message ids for example) | 15:40 |
| cdent | So the main thing I'd probably add to the idea of goals, and was something that did come up in the ml thread: We need to stop working towards small goals that are safe and achievable. We need to articulate bigger, wider, longer goals that are about actively changing the architecture of OpenStack to be more adapted to modern times. Kevin, Zane, I, and a few other people all touched on that. | 15:41 |
| cdent | We are not reaching high, far or extravagantly enough. | 15:41 |
| dhellmann | great, that's a very actionable bit of feedback from the thread | 15:41 |
| dhellmann | let's talk about how to change that, then | 15:41 |
| *** dklyle has quit IRC | 15:41 | |
| cdent | that was talked about in the thread some too and was why the PTL discussion came up: | 15:42 |
| evrardjp | cdent: the problem is the "not far" is already a problem -- see the attention community goals currently have | 15:42 |
| cdent | when discussing goals, it is easy for the real or feared sense of a project veto of a goal to shoot it down | 15:42 |
| dhellmann | let's try looking for solutions to problems that don't start with fundamentally reorganizing our entire community | 15:42 |
| evrardjp | but I will continue listening though :) | 15:42 |
| dhellmann | it sounds like we haven't been doing enough work to sell the goals we do choose, and get buy-in from project teams | 15:43 |
| cdent | and the TC tends to shy when that veto happens, rather than saying "we are the voice of the people and the people want this (because they elected us)" and strongarming the ptls | 15:43 |
| dhellmann | how can we do better at that? | 15:43 |
| dhellmann | do we think the problem is the goals we're picking? the way we're managing them? or something else? | 15:44 |
| *** ianychoi has joined #openstack-tc | 15:44 | |
| lbragstad | that's a good question - and it was kind of what i was trying to get to the bottom of with http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/%23openstack-tc.2019-01-10.log.html | 15:45 |
| lbragstad | sorry - http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/%23openstack-tc.2019-01-10.log.html#t2019-01-10T21:44:48 | 15:46 |
| lbragstad | at the time - dhellmann's suggestion to analyze what's worked and what hasn't as far as goals go might be a good place to start | 15:46 |
| cdent | I need to attend to some other stuff and need to go. I'm not rage quitting or anything, just have obligations. It would be great if some of this conversation could be had on the ML, either in that thread, or somewhere nearby. | 15:48 |
| TheJulia | From a team buy-in standpoint, This month seem to be a hard one to get traction with-in teams because their employers are trying to work out the next 6-12 months of work items, so I think it is really easy for things to fall by the wayside for a little while. | 15:50 |
| dhellmann | that's fair -- goal buy-in requires a long-term investment | 15:54 |
| * dhellmann also has to step away for a bit | 15:54 | |
| dhellmann | tc-members: does anyone want to take up the container image publishing question corvus raised on the discuss list? http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-January/002027.html | 16:03 |
| *** dklyle has joined #openstack-tc | 16:04 | |
| evrardjp | dhellmann: that is an interesting topic, but I have checked the thread, and I am not really sure what needs to be doing -- the current practices doesn't seem opposed to it? | 16:04 |
| mugsie | we have pushed back on publishing offical binary aritfacts in the past havemt we? | 16:05 |
| evrardjp | (I mean I am not sure the https://governance.openstack.org/tc/resolutions/20170530-binary-artifacts.html needs revisiting) | 16:05 |
| evrardjp | yeah but it seems a slight relaxing of this ^ page could be enough? | 16:05 |
| dhellmann | mugsie : yes (see the link from evrardjp) | 16:05 |
| dhellmann | the question is, do we want that? | 16:05 |
| mugsie | yeah ... I can see the appeal of being able to docker run openstack/designate-api ... | 16:06 |
| evrardjp | I am not against publishing, "at your own risk" like expressed on that page | 16:06 |
| corvus | (i have no skin in the game, and am perfectly happy to shelve it if we don't want/need it. just thought it worth a check-in since the infrastructure has evolved a bit) | 16:07 |
| *** ijolliffe has joined #openstack-tc | 16:07 | |
| smcginnis | I like the idea of having official docker images. | 16:08 |
| mugsie | corvus: I think we should not discount it out of hand, but think about how it should be done ... | 16:08 |
| smcginnis | Kind of like how we publish to pypi. | 16:08 |
| dims | +1 to the concept. at least loci should publish it's images there | 16:08 |
| dhellmann | corvus : ack, thanks for raising it | 16:08 |
| *** e0ne has quit IRC | 16:09 | |
| evrardjp | dims: agreed | 16:12 |
| evrardjp | openstack-helm-images could too :) | 16:13 |
| dims | +1 | 16:15 |
| *** Bhujay has quit IRC | 16:44 | |
| *** ricolin has quit IRC | 16:53 | |
| *** ricolin_ has joined #openstack-tc | 16:53 | |
| TheJulia | I'm also +1 to the concept | 17:12 |
| evrardjp | what should I do to make that happen? it that a new resolution or an amendment ? | 17:15 |
| *** ricolin_ has quit IRC | 17:21 | |
| *** jpich has quit IRC | 17:39 | |
| *** dklyle has quit IRC | 17:40 | |
| TheJulia | I think both | 17:43 |
| TheJulia | the prior one would need a note pointing to the new one, and a new resolution should be passed I think | 17:43 |
| *** whoami-rajat has quit IRC | 17:43 | |
| *** dims has quit IRC | 17:43 | |
| *** dims has joined #openstack-tc | 17:48 | |
| *** dklyle has joined #openstack-tc | 17:50 | |
| *** dims has quit IRC | 17:54 | |
| *** dims has joined #openstack-tc | 17:55 | |
| *** e0ne has joined #openstack-tc | 17:59 | |
| fungi | i'm so very not here at the moment, but my mentioning it on the thread was just that i wanted to remind people the tc had previously attempted to avoid any impression that, say, images published by kolla came with any implied support from the openstack community. there might be a critical vulnerability in glibc which we don't maintain, and we very well might not scramble to update those images in a | 18:08 |
| fungi | timely fashion leaving downstream consumers running vulnerable images. linux distros are in a much better position to respond to and provide channels for keeping aggregations of software secure, but openstack's focus is on keeping its own software secure (i.e. we're not set up to operate like a distro community) | 18:08 |
| fungi | publishing packages of pure python software on pypi is dfferent since python, as an interpreted language, is just bare source code anyway. we aren't compiling and linking/vendoring in vulnerable libraries which we don't as a community also produce | 18:11 |
| fungi | we're just distributing our software in that case rather than an aggregate of our software and also a bunch of other stuff we can't vouch for | 18:12 |
| *** e0ne has quit IRC | 18:13 | |
| fungi | so while i'm not against publishing usable images of our software, i do think that we need to continue to be careful to set user expectations accordingly | 18:19 |
| fungi | and make sure they're warned as to what/where our priorities lie | 18:19 |
| TheJulia | fungi: I completely agree | 18:20 |
| *** whoami-rajat has joined #openstack-tc | 18:20 | |
| *** e0ne has joined #openstack-tc | 18:27 | |
| *** cdent has quit IRC | 18:35 | |
| *** mriedem has quit IRC | 19:00 | |
| *** e0ne has quit IRC | 19:02 | |
| *** mriedem has joined #openstack-tc | 19:21 | |
| *** e0ne has joined #openstack-tc | 19:26 | |
| *** dklyle has quit IRC | 19:37 | |
| *** tosky has quit IRC | 19:44 | |
| *** e0ne has quit IRC | 19:54 | |
| *** zaneb has joined #openstack-tc | 20:09 | |
| *** dklyle has joined #openstack-tc | 20:15 | |
| *** whoami-rajat has quit IRC | 20:43 | |
| *** ssbarnea|bkp2 has joined #openstack-tc | 21:32 | |
| *** ssbarnea|rover has quit IRC | 21:33 | |
| *** ssbarnea|rover has joined #openstack-tc | 22:14 | |
| *** ssbarnea|bkp2 has quit IRC | 22:16 | |
| *** ijolliffe has quit IRC | 22:23 | |
| *** dklyle has quit IRC | 22:52 | |
| *** spsurya has quit IRC | 23:04 | |
| *** dklyle has joined #openstack-tc | 23:11 | |
| *** dklyle has quit IRC | 23:19 | |
| *** mriedem has quit IRC | 23:27 | |
| *** dklyle has joined #openstack-tc | 23:51 | |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.3 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!