| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/project-team-guide master: Remove setup.py check from pep8 recommendations https://review.openstack.org/614283 | 00:25 |
|---|---|---|
| *** markvoelker has quit IRC | 00:49 | |
| *** evrardjp has quit IRC | 00:50 | |
| gmann | TC office hour time.. | 01:04 |
| fungi | so it is! | 01:09 |
| fungi | looks like we have at least a couple of tc-members around if anyone from the community has something to bring up | 01:09 |
| mnaser | It’s late here :( but I’m around | 01:10 |
| clarkb | Im floating around and happy to talk CI related stuff more | 01:15 |
| clarkb | though I dont really have anything to add | 01:15 |
| TheJulia | CI is a fun issue :( | 01:20 |
| *** ricolin has joined #openstack-tc | 01:41 | |
| tonyb | Gah my watch just told me the office-hours are about to start | 01:50 |
| * tonyb can't calendar ATM | 01:50 | |
| *** diablo_rojo has quit IRC | 02:02 | |
| *** fanzhang has left #openstack-tc | 02:45 | |
| *** chenyb4 has joined #openstack-tc | 03:04 | |
| *** chenyb4 has quit IRC | 05:07 | |
| *** saneax has joined #openstack-tc | 05:09 | |
| *** saneax has quit IRC | 06:07 | |
| *** e0ne has joined #openstack-tc | 06:16 | |
| *** e0ne has quit IRC | 06:18 | |
| *** saneax has joined #openstack-tc | 07:18 | |
| *** e0ne has joined #openstack-tc | 08:12 | |
| *** jpich has joined #openstack-tc | 08:28 | |
| *** e0ne has quit IRC | 09:16 | |
| *** e0ne has joined #openstack-tc | 09:25 | |
| *** ricolin has quit IRC | 09:34 | |
| *** ianychoi has quit IRC | 09:51 | |
| *** ianychoi has joined #openstack-tc | 09:52 | |
| ttx | On yesterday's discussions, I agree that the reality is that the board members should not be seen as "the people that control the priorities of developers" ... because the reality is... they don't. It's actually a shorter path to go through developers to relay needs to their management | 10:37 |
| ttx | What board members control is, at a different layer, the level of engagement and alignment their organization has with "OpenStack" | 10:38 |
| *** cdent has joined #openstack-tc | 10:38 | |
| ttx | which is why we need to give them more than a list of specific issues, because that's actually counterproductive, as smcginnis and zaneb noted | 10:39 |
| ttx | Explaining the direction we are planning on going (think openstack vision) *is* productive because it gives them visibility and encourages alignment on messaging, or global/local strategies | 10:42 |
| cdent | I think the point that was trying to be made yesterday was that the CI situation is a long running unattended crisis which is a larger risk than we've been asserting in the past | 10:47 |
| cdent | And that reporting it to the board wasn't a request for help, but rather a statement of "our attention is diverted by this" | 10:47 |
| ttx | As long as we don't expect them to solve it for us, it's probably fine | 10:48 |
| ttx | But we should also double down on that in our own direct communications with devs over the week | 10:48 |
| cdent | yes | 10:49 |
| *** dtantsur|afk is now known as dtantsur | 10:49 | |
| cdent | I'm going to miss the meeting tomorrow. Have $internal meetings. Will catch up in the usual way. | 11:00 |
| *** e0ne has quit IRC | 11:15 | |
| *** e0ne has joined #openstack-tc | 11:15 | |
| *** e0ne has quit IRC | 11:27 | |
| *** e0ne has joined #openstack-tc | 13:06 | |
| *** mriedem has joined #openstack-tc | 13:14 | |
| *** mriedem is now known as ash_williams | 13:15 | |
| dhellmann | tc-members: it's interesting to see some other communities trying to deal with communication/email volume, too: https://lwn.net/Articles/768483/ | 13:17 |
| dhellmann | trying discourse seems like a pretty popular approach, although it's not clear if anyone thinks it's a success, yet | 13:17 |
| fungi | having tried to use discourse myself, i find it absolutely terrible | 13:18 |
| smcginnis | Some of the feedback I saw on the python community switch didn't look to encouraging for discourse use. | 13:19 |
| fungi | i get the impression it's targeted at people who would like to only use their cell phones for communication and no longer communicate via computer | 13:19 |
| mnaser | I wonder if this should incentivize us to try and work with this tool developers at how we can make it better | 13:19 |
| fungi | because for the latter, i found it unusable | 13:19 |
| fungi | i'm not sure where to begin improving discourse. it's like they mashed the worst parts of e-mail and irc together | 13:21 |
| TheJulia | cdent: ttx: I like that approach | 13:21 |
| mnaser | I’d be interested to hear community feedback on this sort of thing. | 13:21 |
| fungi | yes, me too | 13:21 |
| mnaser | Whenever I see a software that doesn’t fit in that way, I imagine how some people might have a view of OpenStack too | 13:21 |
| mnaser | We might just not understand it enough to make it work | 13:22 |
| fungi | i'm waiting to see how the python committers switch ends up (it wasn't a done deal, just a parallel experiment, and only for one python community ml so far) | 13:22 |
| mnaser | So it’s a perspective to keep in mind | 13:22 |
| dhellmann | fungi : yeah, I think they picked the wrong list to experiment with. the committers list isn't really representative of the other more public lists | 13:23 |
| fungi | i concur | 13:23 |
| dhellmann | python-ideas seems to have been the one with the moderation issues, so I would have done that one | 13:24 |
| smcginnis | If our only issue with the current status quo is volume, switching tools is going to do more harm than good. Frankly, I think we have more important things to spend our time on. | 13:24 |
| dhellmann | the problem I've been trying to figure out how to solve is how to surface the important summary threads for folks who don't have time to read the whole list | 13:25 |
| fungi | i haven't seen any other communication tools solve that problem either, fwiw | 13:25 |
| dhellmann | one aspect of mailman 3 that I'm hoping helps is the ability to link to the ML posts in a way that someone can comment on the web page. that opens options for things like blog summaries | 13:25 |
| smcginnis | Bring back Mike's mailing list summaries? That's a time intensive process for someone to do. | 13:25 |
| cmurphy | they should be subscribing to/filtering on [all] and [projectIcareabout] | 13:26 |
| dhellmann | smcginnis : exactly | 13:26 |
| fungi | discourse lets you "pin" posts which makes them easier to find, until you have too many of those | 13:26 |
| smcginnis | cmurphy: ++ | 13:26 |
| dhellmann | we've been giving that answer for ages, and even our PTLs aren't able to keep up in all cases, so I don't think that's sufficient | 13:26 |
| fungi | i continue to believe that's not the problem of the tools themselves, but rather that we have a community of thousands of people attempting to coordinate work | 13:27 |
| fungi | that's daunting under any circumstance | 13:27 |
| dhellmann | yeah. I'm still looking for options for easing that burden, though. | 13:28 |
| fungi | we encourage people to discuss everything in the open, but that then means there's a massive amount of discussion going on | 13:29 |
| cmurphy | is volume a new concern? because certainly merging the mailing lists isn't going to help with that | 13:29 |
| persia | A common pattern is to have lots of comms channels (split mailing lists). We tried that in a limited way, and found it weakened our core values of cross-project coordination and single shared identity. Some of us have excellent tooling that can deal with the email volume. Anyone trying to download a client for a commodity platform today probably won't end up with one that is usable for our mailing lists. Would spending some time documenting | 13:29 |
| persia | some good tools and workflows for dealing with massive message volumes perhaps help? | 13:29 |
| fungi | volume is not a new concern as far as i know. our mailing list volume has been steadily decreasing for several years across the board | 13:29 |
| smcginnis | Maybe collect tools and workflow tips from folks that don't have an issue handling the ML volume today, then form that into a blog post or superuser article to spread those recommendations? | 13:30 |
| *** jamesmcarthur has joined #openstack-tc | 13:31 | |
| dhellmann | I think thingee started a wiki page with that sort of content a few years ago, but I don't know how far he got | 13:31 |
| dhellmann | and now I can't find the page, either | 13:35 |
| fungi | there was initially an etherpad where we were collecting suggestions | 13:37 |
| smcginnis | I do remember he has something with IRC client recommendations and things like that. | 13:38 |
| fungi | nowadays that stuff would probably be at home in the contributor guide | 13:39 |
| gmann | have not read the whole thread but what is their alternate proposal ? chat channels ? | 13:39 |
| fungi | gmann: i don't think there's an alternate proposal, dhellmann simply linked an article on lwn covering a couple of communities who have moved some subset of their mailing lists to discourse | 13:40 |
| fungi | or who are at least experimenting with doing so | 13:40 |
| fungi | though the main driver seems to be that they're plagued with code of conduct violations they're unable to adequately police on mailing lists and are looking for platforms which allow them to more quickly censor discussions which go off the rails or turn abusive/violent | 13:41 |
| *** jamesmcarthur has quit IRC | 13:54 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has joined #openstack-tc | 13:55 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has quit IRC | 14:01 | |
| cdent | I think we're trying to fix a problem that can't be solved: there's a root cause here which is that we want/think that it should be possible to participate in a huge community without dedicating a signifcant chunk of our time to reading and writing prose. But there's no way around that. | 14:11 |
| cdent | People have a tendency to that communication is overhead, but it is one of, if not the, primary activities | 14:12 |
| smcginnis | ++ | 14:12 |
| cdent | s/to that/to think that/ | 14:13 |
| cdent | See: I'm trying to rush my communication...and boom | 14:13 |
| smcginnis | Heh | 14:13 |
| cmurphy | cdent: totally agree | 14:16 |
| *** e0ne has quit IRC | 14:19 | |
| *** e0ne has joined #openstack-tc | 14:26 | |
| cdent | It's similar to fixing the congestion in the gate: there's no substitute for simply doing the work | 14:29 |
| cdent | which is a shame, but such is life? | 14:29 |
| *** e0ne has quit IRC | 14:41 | |
| *** saneax has quit IRC | 14:42 | |
| *** e0ne has joined #openstack-tc | 14:44 | |
| *** ianychoi has quit IRC | 15:00 | |
| *** ricolin has joined #openstack-tc | 15:06 | |
| TheJulia | dhellmann: replied to your email to ptls for ironic. LMK if you need more. | 15:21 |
| *** ash_williams has left #openstack-tc | 15:21 | |
| *** ash_williams has joined #openstack-tc | 15:21 | |
| jbryce | i sent out an updated set of bylaws last night for those of you who have been following that conversation. ping me here or on email if you have any questions or comments about them | 15:36 |
| smcginnis | Thanks jbryce | 15:38 |
| *** markvoelker has joined #openstack-tc | 15:50 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has joined #openstack-tc | 16:06 | |
| *** ricolin has quit IRC | 16:48 | |
| *** diablo_rojo has joined #openstack-tc | 16:56 | |
| *** ash_williams is now known as ash_sawing | 16:59 | |
| *** jpich has quit IRC | 16:59 | |
| *** e0ne has quit IRC | 17:08 | |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: report the number of votes needed https://review.openstack.org/614007 | 17:38 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: remove basepython from default testenv settings https://review.openstack.org/614597 | 17:44 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: add pep8 to tox.ini https://review.openstack.org/614598 | 17:44 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: add module for fetching and parsing governance data https://review.openstack.org/614599 | 17:44 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: move governance loading functions into a class https://review.openstack.org/614600 | 17:44 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: add support for reading tc repos list https://review.openstack.org/614601 | 17:44 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: add support for reading sig repo list https://review.openstack.org/614602 | 17:44 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: simplify interface for creating Governance instance https://review.openstack.org/614603 | 17:44 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: add get_team method https://review.openstack.org/614604 | 17:44 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: add mission and service properties to Team https://review.openstack.org/614605 | 17:44 |
| dhellmann | jbryce : I apologize for asking this because it was probably covered in the previous review of the redline for the bylaws changes, but why is OpenStack called out as special in the bylaws, with the TC and other governance stuff described there, but other projects will be documented elsewhere? | 17:54 |
| *** ash_sawing has quit IRC | 18:07 | |
| *** mriedem has joined #openstack-tc | 18:11 | |
| *** mriedem is now known as ash_williams | 18:11 | |
| *** dtantsur is now known as dtantsur|afk | 18:17 | |
| *** e0ne has joined #openstack-tc | 18:31 | |
| *** e0ne has quit IRC | 18:32 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has quit IRC | 18:52 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has joined #openstack-tc | 18:52 | |
| fungi | dhellmann: i expect jbryce will answer when he's able, but my understanding was mainly because it was easier to avoid changing too much about the bylaws that way. otherwise we'd be looking at almost a complete rewrite | 18:54 |
| fungi | which would have been hard to get past all the stakeholders in time for the january election | 18:54 |
| dhellmann | fungi : thanks. that's more or less what I assumed, but it still feels a bit odd. | 18:55 |
| dhellmann | workable, just not what I anticipated | 18:55 |
| fungi | also i'm told that the way openstack is positioned there, we actually end up with more leeway to define our own governance without having to get approval from the board. other projects will be required to submit all changes for their governance documents to the board for approval | 18:56 |
| dhellmann | hmm, I didn't pick up that nuance when I read it the first time | 18:56 |
| fungi | whereas the openstack tc is allowed to mostly change its charter with limited input/oversight | 18:56 |
| smcginnis | Probably as long as it's the "OpenStack" Foundation, OpenStack should be a special project? | 18:56 |
| dhellmann | I interpreted it as making it harder for us to change things, but it sounds like I should read it again | 18:57 |
| *** jamesmcarthur has quit IRC | 18:57 | |
| dtroyer | fungi: that's an interesting observation, I need to go back and read things more closely. I wonder if that applies while we (stx and the others) are still in Pilot mode? AFAIK the stx TSC charter isn't cast in stone yet, we're actually revising it slightly again today | 19:01 |
| *** jamesmcarthur has joined #openstack-tc | 19:01 | |
| fungi | dtroyer: my take was that it had to do with project confirmation and thereafter? | 19:02 |
| fungi | governance documents are potentially still being formulated during pilot phase | 19:02 |
| jbryce | yeah it's primarily to do with post pilot phase | 19:03 |
| *** zaneb has quit IRC | 19:03 | |
| dtroyer | ok, that makes sense, and wasn't something I was aware of | 19:04 |
| jbryce | in terms of openstack being special cased there were few considerations there | 19:05 |
| jbryce | 1) some of it was to avoid changing too dramatically as fungi said | 19:05 |
| jbryce | 2) some of it was because the primary activity we're doing still is oriented around openstack (it's still called out as the first activity in article i) and a lot of feedback we've gotten through the process has been about making it clear we're not running from openstack | 19:05 |
| jbryce | 3) some of is that relationship is fairly defined and understood by the community and most of the functions of the tc are in the tc controlled charter. the amendment update allows for future updates to tc policy by just a vote of tc and board together so it does add in additional flexibility going forward | 19:06 |
| fungi | yeah, i found that to be a fine compromise. my main concerns with appendix 4 were around requiring a vote of the foundation membership, which this solves | 19:07 |
| fungi | requiring a vote of the foundation membership to alter, that is | 19:07 |
| *** jamesmcarthur has quit IRC | 19:08 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has joined #openstack-tc | 19:09 | |
| fungi | the board has been more than willing to work with us on things when we need to make changes, but the fact that a simple typo fix requires a vote of thousands of likely disinterested people has been a real problem | 19:09 |
| *** ash_williams is now known as mriedem_away | 19:25 | |
| *** diablo_rojo has quit IRC | 19:26 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has quit IRC | 19:44 | |
| *** e0ne has joined #openstack-tc | 19:44 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has joined #openstack-tc | 19:45 | |
| *** e0ne has quit IRC | 19:45 | |
| *** diablo_rojo has joined #openstack-tc | 19:45 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has quit IRC | 20:24 | |
| *** e0ne has joined #openstack-tc | 20:30 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has joined #openstack-tc | 20:38 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has quit IRC | 20:43 | |
| *** e0ne has quit IRC | 20:50 | |
| *** cdent has quit IRC | 20:51 | |
| *** zaneb has joined #openstack-tc | 21:00 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has joined #openstack-tc | 22:16 | |
| *** diablo_rojo has quit IRC | 22:18 | |
| *** jamesmcarthur has quit IRC | 22:21 | |
| *** mriedem_away has quit IRC | 22:44 | |
| *** diablo_rojo has joined #openstack-tc | 22:50 | |
| *** ianychoi has joined #openstack-tc | 23:35 | |
| *** diablo_rojo has quit IRC | 23:45 | |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.3 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!