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| fungi | tc-members and anyone else who is about... it's time again for an openstack technical committee office hour | 01:00 |
|---|---|---|
| TheJulia | o/ | 01:00 |
| fungi | don't forget to add potential forum ideas to https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/BER-TC-brainstorming since the submission deadline is nearly upon us | 01:00 |
| * lbragstad meander in | 01:01 | |
| fungi | also, the ongoing tc election has just shy of two days to go | 01:01 |
| fungi | don't forget to vote if you're eligible | 01:02 |
| knikolla | o/ | 01:05 |
| fungi | we're not off to a very active start for the hour, i'm afraid | 01:06 |
| TheJulia | Life is sometimes that way | 01:07 |
| fungi | anybody had a chance to attempt to digest the chinese articles fred li posted to the -dev ml? | 01:08 |
| fungi | http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2018-September/135014.html | 01:08 |
| TheJulia | I have not, I'm still kind of trying to catch up from the ptg since I was in Boston last week | 01:08 |
| fungi | yeah, me too and i don't even have boston as an excuse :/ | 01:09 |
| fungi | hope you got over your plague at least | 01:09 |
| EmilienM | hellow | 01:09 |
| TheJulia | fungi: sinus are still not 100%, but a lot better | 01:10 |
| TheJulia | sinuses | 01:10 |
| * TheJulia clearly just can't spell | 01:10 | |
| fungi | blame the head cold | 01:11 |
| TheJulia | heh | 01:16 |
| fungi | another quiet hour in the midst of the dead zone. time for me to find some shuteye | 01:59 |
| fungi | thanks everyone! | 02:00 |
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| ttx | dhellmann: I'll file those yes (there is one that I'll dissolve in others I think). Would be great if other tc-members could review https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/BER-TC-brainstorming today. | 07:42 |
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| ttx | and by today I mean early today for most of you :) | 07:43 |
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| jroll | there isn't too many kendalls, there is a kendall and a wendall :P | 10:44 |
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| dims_ | o/ | 11:31 |
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| TheJulia | zhipeng: Regarding your mailing list post, do you think it is purely for gaming of the statistics reporting? | 14:38 |
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| ttx | tc-members: I'll file the suggestions in https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/BER-TC-brainstorming in the next hour. | 15:17 |
| ttx | TheJulia: can you file the "Continuation of discussion on cultural outreach in China" one ? I feel like you can be more creative than I would be in the abstract | 15:18 |
| EmilienM | (just as an fyi but I won't be in Berlin) | 15:18 |
| ttx | Boo | 15:18 |
| TheJulia | ttx: okay, let me see if I can give it a spin | 15:18 |
| TheJulia | I'm on my team's standup atm | 15:18 |
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| ttx | You have until the end of the day, so no hurry for you. My day ends sooner :) | 15:19 |
| TheJulia | There is a day? | 15:22 |
| TheJulia | what is a day? :) | 15:22 |
| EmilienM | TheJulia++ same here | 15:23 |
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| fungi | TheJulia: one rotation of terra relative to its orbit around sol | 15:26 |
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| ttx | zaneb: would you like to file the "Vision for OpenStack clouds" discussion forum session ? I don't really want to moderate everything :_ | 15:30 |
| ttx | dhellmann: I'll hold on the "T release goals" one in case you want to file it yourself | 15:32 |
| ttx | TheJulia: would you be ok to also file the "TC 2019 vision retrospective" one ? | 15:33 |
| TheJulia | I can try, are you marking off the ones your submitting? | 15:33 |
| ttx | I'm adding "To be filed by:" to the etherpad | 15:33 |
| TheJulia | ack | 15:34 |
| ttx | Thanks! | 15:34 |
| dhellmann | ttx: I'm hoping one of the other tc-members will be willing to lead the goal selection process but I can file the forum session if you prefer | 15:34 |
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| ttx | dhellmann: we can always change moderators after the fact if we find a volunteer | 15:34 |
| dhellmann | ++ | 15:34 |
| ttx | just trying to spread the load a bit :) | 15:34 |
| fungi | or add extra moderators too | 15:34 |
| dhellmann | where do I go to file it | 15:35 |
| ttx | https://www.openstack.org/summit/berlin-2018/call-for-presentations | 15:35 |
| * ttx is soon going to see if there is a limit number | 15:35 | |
| dhellmann | ok | 15:35 |
| TheJulia | ttx: 4 or 5 I thought.... | 15:36 |
| TheJulia | I'm working on my third at the moment | 15:36 |
| dhellmann | what is the difference between a fishbowl and a "collab discussion"? | 15:36 |
| dhellmann | room size? | 15:36 |
| TheJulia | yeah | 15:39 |
| TheJulia | and seat layout | 15:39 |
| TheJulia | fishbowls are larger presentation style spaces, and collab discussions are most of the rooms we were in vancouver. | 15:40 |
| dhellmann | well now I don't know which one to choose for the goals session | 15:41 |
| TheJulia | Yeah, thats a tough one :( | 15:43 |
| TheJulia | I'm sure some of us can float and carry microphones around the room | 15:44 |
| persia | Generally, I think "fishbowl" is useful for cases where the expected number of primary participants is 8 or less, and "collab" is useful for cases where more people are speaking. | 15:45 |
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| dhellmann | is this a new distinction? | 15:45 |
| TheJulia | dhellmann: not really | 15:45 |
| dhellmann | I feel like we used to have fishbowl and "meeting" or something | 15:45 |
| TheJulia | I think it was like collaborative meeting | 15:46 |
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| ttx | you should pick fishbowl | 15:47 |
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| ttx | TheJulia: I was wondering about merging the Continuation of discussion on cultural outreach in China with "Community fragmentation across communication tools" | 15:47 |
| ttx | basically cover the ML reunification and focus on async communications | 15:47 |
| ttx | as well as efforts to make IRC more accessible | 15:48 |
| ttx | in the same session | 15:48 |
| ttx | That sounds like a very similar topic | 15:48 |
| ttx | and not sure we need two sessions | 15:48 |
| dhellmann | maybe I'm just confused because I was mostly in fishbowl rooms in vancouver | 15:48 |
| TheJulia | was the mailing list one already submitted? | 15:48 |
| ttx | no | 15:48 |
| dhellmann | anyway, I went with fishbowl | 15:48 |
| ttx | dhellmann: I think that distinction won't be used by the selection committee anyway | 15:49 |
| dhellmann | ok | 15:49 |
| dhellmann | I was worried about ending up in a small room accidentally | 15:49 |
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| scas | i'd love to be present at berlin, but the logistics aren't agreeing so far | 15:50 |
| TheJulia | ttx: I think it can be merged since there is overlap, although I think we will need to be careful and possibly even assertive in moderating such discussions to keep us on-track and productive. i.e. I don't want to end up in bike shedding over mailing lists and communication methods when the nature of the universe means there will always be side channels, where the central theme coming from us should be that we should be | 15:51 |
| TheJulia | collaborating. At least that is my $0.02 | 15:51 |
| TheJulia | scas: Where are you located? | 15:51 |
| scas | TheJulia: the not-rainy pacific northwest | 15:52 |
| TheJulia | scas: regional flight to a hub on a separate booking could make things slightly more sane. | 15:52 |
| TheJulia | fwiw | 15:53 |
| * TheJulia needs to check PSP-SEA, SEA->BER as separate trips | 15:53 | |
| scas | as a man of certain physical stature, the flying metal tubes aren't kind | 15:53 |
| TheJulia | ahh, yes, that is.... difficult :( | 15:53 |
| TheJulia | Is it time for an open source conference cruise ship again? | 15:54 |
| scas | while first class to txl would be grand, i foresee a rotating standing/seating session with two other tall gentlemen in the effort of cost sanity | 15:54 |
| scas | chef openstack does not afford me the liberty to do such very often | 15:55 |
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| ttx | TheJulia: fully agree. The whole thing is a nest for red herrings. I think we'll have to call the rules upfront | 15:59 |
| ttx | But I fear two sessions will increase the number of red herrings instead of keeping them under control | 15:59 |
| TheJulia | jamesmcarthur: is there a limit on the number of sessions someone can submit for the forum | 15:59 |
| TheJulia | ttx: agree and +++++++ | 15:59 |
| ttx | I files two so far | 16:00 |
| ttx | filed* | 16:00 |
| ttx | i can add a 3rd one | 16:00 |
| TheJulia | I'm about to submit my third, then I'll switch over to the TC items | 16:00 |
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| TheJulia | hmmm | 16:05 |
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| TheJulia | Only one moderator per session is an interesting touch | 16:06 |
| TheJulia | jamesmcarthur: Can we get the submission limit turned off or increased? | 16:06 |
| TheJulia | ttx: it is 3 | 16:06 |
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| TheJulia | ttx: perhaps we can kind of put polished text in the etherpad if we can't get the submission limit issue resolved | 16:08 |
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| ttx | let me see if we can get it waived | 16:10 |
| TheJulia | ttx: thanks | 16:11 |
| jamesmcarthur | TheJulia: sure, what do we want to raise it to? | 16:11 |
| jamesmcarthur | Will 10 be enough? | 16:12 |
| ttx | 10 should be enough yes | 16:12 |
| jamesmcarthur | cool - one moment | 16:12 |
| TheJulia | thanks jamesmcarthur! | 16:12 |
| cmurphy | ttx: TheJulia fwiw I added the cultural outreach track as a distinct topic on purpose, it has overlap with the comms tools discussion but it's its own problem imo | 16:13 |
| cmurphy | but i don't want to commit to moderating it so | 16:13 |
| ttx | cmurphy: I think we can make it primarily about the cultural issue. I just want to touch on the ML reunification plan and the idea to focus on async comms (ML) | 16:14 |
| jamesmcarthur | TheJulia: all set. | 16:14 |
| cmurphy | ttx: wfm | 16:14 |
| ttx | We can skip the IRC part unless we need a bikeshed to paint | 16:14 |
| jamesmcarthur | If y'all have any other problems, just let me know. | 16:14 |
| TheJulia | cmurphy: I was thinking the same as ttx, because async is a mechanism for that sort of communication, and it is archived/possibly easily translated. | 16:15 |
| ttx | zaneb: I'll let you propose the "Vision for OpenStack clouds" discussion one. If you don't file it I'll slip it under the deadline at 23:59 PST (which is 8:59am my time tomorrow) | 16:15 |
| TheJulia | ttx: I think just saying outright "this is not about if IRC vs sidechannels" | 16:16 |
| zaneb | ttx: ack, will do then | 16:16 |
| scas | TheJulia: ++ | 16:16 |
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| * TheJulia doesn't even want to bring paint to the discussion | 16:17 | |
| TheJulia | much less a shed.... those things are heavy | 16:17 |
| * TheJulia imagines someone will now make a shed appear | 16:17 | |
| cmurphy | what if we wallpapered the shed | 16:17 |
| * cmurphy thoughtleader | 16:17 | |
| ttx | Although everyone needs a shed to paint at the end of the week | 16:18 |
| scas | perhaps if there were no walls to the shed... | 16:18 |
| TheJulia | scas: something shade providing with solar panels would be ++ | 16:18 |
| TheJulia | cmurphy: wallpaper the rooms perhaps? | 16:18 |
| mordred | TheJulia: you can always put solar panels on top of your bimini | 16:18 |
| TheJulia | ohhh, I guess yes. | 16:19 |
| ttx | kordred: what's a bimini? | 16:19 |
| TheJulia | But what shall we call the boat? | 16:19 |
| * ttx suspects mordred has a ping set on "shade" | 16:20 | |
| * TheJulia puts in a regex to filter out *boatface* from the submission list | 16:20 | |
| TheJulia | ttx: that he does | 16:20 |
| mordred | TheJulia: that is an important question! | 16:20 |
| ttx | Some BoJack smart reference I suspect | 16:21 |
| mordred | ttx: a bimini is a roof for a boat's cockpit | 16:21 |
| TheJulia | "What shall we name the boat?" end of day session sounds kind of fun, but too much laughing may result | 16:22 |
| ttx | and here I thought it was an island. Or a typo. | 16:22 |
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| mordred | ttx: it is also an island | 16:23 |
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| zaneb | ttx: done | 16:44 |
| dhellmann | cmurphy : tile | 16:48 |
| fungi | we could just do a session on nautical knot tying. that would be a nice change of pace | 16:49 |
| dhellmann | fungi : I would totally participate in that | 16:50 |
| * dhellmann imagines TSA wondering why they're looking at a suitcase full of rope | 16:50 | |
| TheJulia | I know they see weirder things. | 16:50 |
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| * lbragstad loves tying knots | 16:51 | |
| persia | The sessions on knitting are usually a hit at DebConfs: it turns out that lots of people who write code also like to think about bitwise operations on cartesian grids | 16:51 |
| dhellmann | ok, if there are 3 of us we need a BoF | 16:52 |
| fungi | it would be a suitcase full of lots of short ropes, which is probably even weirder | 16:52 |
| lbragstad | i keep spare rope in my kitchen to practice with | 16:52 |
| TheJulia | fungi: synthetic is likely important as well | 16:52 |
| TheJulia | no wood or fiber products would be important | 16:52 |
| * dhellmann is out of practice but could probably still manage to build a solid tower | 16:53 | |
| dhellmann | TheJulia : go hemp or go home! | 16:53 |
| dhellmann | :-) | 16:53 |
| persia | fungi: a single 100m line is probably easier to pack, and cutting implements are permitted in checked luggage. | 16:53 |
| TheJulia | dhellmann: :) | 16:53 |
| * persia prefers jute for practice | 16:54 | |
| clarkb | do you start and end with the bowline? | 16:54 |
| fungi | need cutting and sealing. though i suppose a pack of electrical tape would suffice and just make participants seal the ends of their own practice ropes at the start of the session | 16:54 |
| dtroyer | +1 on knot typing, I'm horrible at it for someone with a boat… | 16:54 |
| lbragstad | clarkb +1 | 16:56 |
| lbragstad | if you don't know knots, tie lots | 16:57 |
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| TheJulia | ttx: you still around? | 17:18 |
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| cmurphy | after the first contact sig meeting this morning i started crafting a starting point for reaching out to spammy contributors, feel free to leave feedback or edit https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/fc-sig-contributor-outreach-message | 19:12 |
| dhellmann | cmurphy : did you discuss this thread? http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2018-September/135070.html | 19:13 |
| cmurphy | dhellmann: no we didn't discuss zhipeng's thread specifically this morning | 19:14 |
| dhellmann | ok, I was just curious to see if that approach was being taken more broadly and if it has a positive outcome | 19:15 |
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| EmilienM | zaneb: I didn't know AWS & Azure were "open infrastructure" 🧐 | 20:00 |
| zaneb | EmilienM: that was my reaction also | 20:00 |
| EmilienM | https://twitter.com/zerobanana/status/1045008173252382721 | 20:01 |
| EmilienM | (/me commenting their reply) | 20:01 |
| cmurphy | o.0 | 20:01 |
| fungi | pretty sure that's in response to google statements (last month?) about their commitment to "open infrastructure" by which they meant things that run in gce instances | 20:02 |
| fungi | e.g., kubernetes | 20:02 |
| cmurphy | if aws is open infrastructure i think we have to rebrand the summit again | 20:02 |
| EmilienM | zaneb: I share your feeling, it's pretty disappointing that superuser mag doesn't mention OpenStack in these examples | 20:02 |
| EmilienM | whatever | 20:04 |
| zaneb | fungi: I'm assuming that the 'infrastructure' here referred to Docker and Prometheus, although that's generally not what _we_ mean when we say 'infrastructure' | 20:04 |
| fungi | ahh, i just checked out your tweet. at first i thought you meant aws and azure were claiming to be/support open infrastructure | 20:05 |
| fungi | wasn't sure what the context was initially since the conversation seemed to spill over from somewhere else | 20:06 |
| * zaneb blames EmilienM for top-posting on IRC ;) | 20:07 | |
| EmilienM | again, whatevr | 20:08 |
| zaneb | lol | 20:08 |
| EmilienM | i'll actually remove that tweet | 20:08 |
| EmilienM | twitter is that kind of platform anyway | 20:08 |
| fungi | so the concern is that http://superuser.openstack.org/ carried a submitted article which didn't really mention any osf projects at all (but mentioned some others, and also some competing proprietary services)? does make me wonder how they ended up with that submission | 20:11 |
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| scas | at best, it doesn't look fair. at worst, it looks like free advertising | 20:12 |
| scas | /armchair | 20:12 |
| fungi | http://superuser.openstack.org/articles/join-the-superuser-editorial-advisory-board/ seems apropos | 20:12 |
| zaneb | fungi: apparently it was an extract from a book | 20:12 |
| scas | it's meant to be a counterpoint, but doesn't call anything else out by name | 20:13 |
| scas | something something intent something text | 20:14 |
| zaneb | the part that really bugged me is "There are also cloud only message queues such as Amazon Simple Queue Service (SQS), which can be used to allow communication between micro-services in the Amazon Web Services cloud." WHAT ABOUT ZAQAR | 20:15 |
| scas | were it framed to provide contra-examples of projects to black-box products, i suspect the reception would be less offputting | 20:15 |
| scas | the point the author seems to want to prove is about vendor lock-in, but it's framed to only point out the public cloud examples | 20:18 |
| scas | even in my own framing, i'm using the offensive version of 'public cloud' to refer to the commercial variants. in the right light, one can project-for-project counter, and it seems that the vector for response is outlined in what people used to call neon lights | 20:23 |
| fungi | yeah, i have a strong hunch this was effectively a syndicated article (or one submitted to lots of outlets) and not tuned for the audience of this particular web-zine | 20:23 |
| scas | ++ | 20:26 |
| fungi | it's certainly something more volunteers on the editorial team could probably help with | 20:27 |
| scas | i've been neck-deep in content generation | 20:27 |
| fungi | they're trying to carry stories about other popular free/open software besides openstack, and a lot of people who run that other software do it on proprietary clouds (to the point where they often don't even realize there are public clouds based on free software too, or that private clouds are a real thing for that matter) | 20:28 |
| fungi | so i'm not surprised article authors might also fall into this camp too, especially if they submit without doing much research into what superuser magazine is | 20:31 |
| scas | quite so. it's also part of dealing with post-hype, which is a shift all its own. i have former colleagues that have turned into digital content outlets under the call of the commercial cloud, as one does | 20:34 |
| dhellmann | I don't think the answer to every piece of feedback can realistically be "join the team". | 20:42 |
| dhellmann | I mean, I'm as guilty of that as the next person. But I'm starting to think we need to tone that down some. | 20:43 |
| fungi | i agree, but at the same time i don't expect the folks who are currently doing editorial oversight for superuser magazine are necessarily going to be in tune to what the openstack community is likely to react negatively on | 20:51 |
| fungi | they're trying to source and/or evaluate articles based on who they think the audience for their periodical is | 20:52 |
| fungi | and i would guess they welcome openstack community contributors who are willing to help act as advisors on what articles will play well | 20:53 |
| dhellmann | it seems like saying something like "talk at least as much about us as about our competition" is a reasonable rule of thumb | 20:54 |
| aprice | jumping in here from a Superuser pov - I agree that joining the team may not be the right approach, but like fungi said, we would welcome contributed articles / feedback on specific articles like this | 20:54 |
| aprice | we get a lot of contributed articles from the community, so would welcome different angles on a particular topic - whether it's something that someone wants to publish or just share with us directly | 20:55 |
| dhellmann | is there some way for a person to do that without committing to reviewing everything? | 20:56 |
| aprice | dhellmann: yes - they can get a hold of us directly at editor@openstack.org if they want to share feedback or draft a quick article | 20:56 |
| fungi | there's also a comment box at the bottom of articles like http://superuser.openstack.org/articles/modern-cloud-native-architecture-what-you-need-to-know-about-micro-services-containers-and-serverless/ | 20:56 |
| dhellmann | ok. zaneb, do you feel up to leaving a comment or sending email? ^^ | 20:57 |
| dhellmann | I can't tell if I'm being told the venue for feedback is wrong (twitter isn't great, so that's fine) or if the feedback itself is somehow not understood or misguided in some way | 20:58 |
| aprice | dhellmann: twitter is fine - i think that it's helpful in the comments so that folks who have similar views on the article can see it all in one place / so it's tied directly to the content. Email is just preferred if there is an action to draft more content | 20:59 |
| dhellmann | ok | 21:00 |
| dhellmann | I can't really take on new projects, so I don't know about writing anything, but I can certainly leave comments | 21:00 |
| zaneb | dhellmann: tbh I don't really think there's anything more that I can usefully say. (I wasn't the one who brought it up here.) | 21:02 |
| dhellmann | EmilienM : ^^ | 21:02 |
| EmilienM | let me read the (huge) backlog | 21:02 |
| EmilienM | I guess my only misunderstanding was the twitter answer about open infrastructure. Obviously Azure and AWS are not open infras. | 21:05 |
| zaneb | EmilienM: that's not what Amazon's recruiters tell me :D | 21:05 |
| EmilienM | sure | 21:06 |
| dhellmann | the article does at least say "commercial cloud" | 21:06 |
| dhellmann | although it mentions some amazon services for which there are openstack analogs and it doesn't mention anything about openstack at all, so I guess that's really the concern | 21:07 |
| zaneb | yes, that's what I reacted to | 21:08 |
| zaneb | like, we're promoting AWS, Azure, and this guy's book... basically everything except OpenStack | 21:09 |
| dhellmann | aprice : so, to be clear, what you want here is for me to login and post on the article that I think that article shouldn't have been posted to the blog at all? because I feel like that's something I ought to be conveying to you more privately. | 21:09 |
| dhellmann | and granted neither irc nor twitter is private | 21:10 |
| * zaneb bbl | 21:10 | |
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| aprice | dhellmann: thanks for clarifying - I agree that if it's about it being posted at all, editor@openstack.org would be a better fit. | 21:11 |
| dhellmann | ok, thanks | 21:11 |
| aprice | np | 21:11 |
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| scas | much like how my $3000 cat scratched my face a few minutes ago. it likely wasn't intentional, but he did want to remove himself from my shoulder. i'm sure had i paid more attention to his intentions, i'd have been able to guide him to the floor without him taking a yolo leap off the side of my face | 21:19 |
| dhellmann | what fun is that? | 21:19 |
| dhellmann | EmilienM , zaneb : I went ahead and tried to summarize the feedback via email | 21:20 |
| scas | he's announcing his victory by going from room to room and sounding off, so it's great fun for him | 21:20 |
| dhellmann | When our cat gets in that mood he makes a noise that sets off the primal fear center of your brain. We usually end up huddling on the sofa in panic. | 21:23 |
| scas | dhellmann: the most panic-inducing thing is to see the cheshire cat coming at you with claws and a happy face, even if he's mostly harmless | 21:24 |
| scas | (two different cats) | 21:24 |
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| fungi | oh, just a heads-up, i'll be missing thursday office hour since this week | 23:07 |
| fungi | but will catch up on scrollback a few hours later when i get back to a computer | 23:07 |
| fungi | er, s/since// | 23:07 |
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| dhellmann | I have some errands to run tomorrow, so I'll likely miss office hours, too | 23:17 |
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| zhipeng | TheJulia: yes unfortunately at least for those in cyborg, I know that for a fact | 23:48 |
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| scas | when i started seeing the random reviews without context in chef openstack, being that it's a bit invisible to the community, my gut feeling was that it was stats building | 23:50 |
| zhipeng | scas you bet | 23:52 |
| zaneb | zhipeng: honestly I don't even mind what the motivation is as long as it's achieving something useful | 23:56 |
| zaneb | sometimes it's not a bad thing to have a bunch of people who go around cleaning up stuff that is too minor for most people to worry about, but e.g. makes navigating the docs easier | 23:58 |
| zhipeng | zaneb: the problem is they are not, do you remember the community CI meltdown in late 2017 ? | 23:58 |
| zaneb | when it gets frustrating is the useless stuff (like curly quotes removal), or when multiple people from the same company submit the same patch... and keep submitting it even after you've told some of them that it's wrong | 23:59 |
| zhipeng | Yep :) | 23:59 |
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