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| cdent | At what point do we become nervous about PTL nominations? | 08:12 |
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| scas | i'm not tc, and i'm there | 11:39 |
| scas | to my uncaffeinated nose, it smells a bit like the shrinking effect that has been mused about | 11:40 |
| scas | it aligns with the hype cycle fairly evenly, though this is the trough of disillusionment | 11:42 |
| cdent | scas: I think that's certainly an aspect of it | 11:42 |
| scas | i'm not saying it's the whole thing, but the major catalyst feels like a bit of corporate burnout. their experiments with openstack aren't as aws-killer-like as initially believed, and there's aws sitting there being itself | 11:46 |
| cdent | I think there's some localized burnout too, individuals who have been PTL or near-to-PTL needing a break | 11:47 |
| scas | quite so | 11:47 |
| scas | despite my soloness, i don't feel the symptoms yet, but it happens to everyone with enough time | 11:48 |
| mugsie | cdent: I think you may be hitting the nail on the head for PTL burn out, some of us have been PTLs for a very long time | 11:54 |
| * cdent nods | 11:54 | |
| cdent | I reckon burnout (of all sorts) is a bigger deal in troughs. | 11:56 |
| mugsie | yeah, I think so. "if I could just get $THING done, people might start getting excited again, but E_NO_TIME_OR_PEOPLE to do $THING" is a real downer | 11:59 |
| scas | stein marks my fifth cycle, and ^ marks some of my sentiment | 11:59 |
| cdent | mugsie: exactly. and that's a trap. | 12:00 |
| mugsie | cdent: it is. This time it is a trap I am trying not to fall into | 12:00 |
| scas | i temper the treadmill with just doing what i can to keep things going. if i don't get all the things, okay, that's for tomorrow or sometime next week | 12:00 |
| mugsie | scas: that is all we can do | 12:01 |
| scas | having a succinct answer to 'what is openstack' -- with or without the question mark -- may just help to stem the bleeding. the blagosphere has been super unkind to OpenStack: The Project since certain big names distanced themselves. looking at a hype graph, the pattern still aligns, but the statement or question still has a subjective or non-answer | 12:05 |
| * ttx is back from vacation, happy to report I did not check on IRC at all | 12:11 | |
| * cdent gives ttx a cookie | 12:12 | |
| cdent | well done | 12:12 |
| ttx | re: Trove and public cloud -- their model is not as incompatible as you'd think. OVH is seriously considering adopting Trove (with a few caveats to work around security issues) once they are done updating their remaining regions to Newton+ | 12:13 |
| ttx | [ttx back: gone 190:55:00] says my weechat | 12:15 |
| scas | part of the problem is that most users' entry to OpenStack: The Project is by way of deploy projects, and right now openstack.org says maybe 3 paths exist, which mostly involve burning down the incumbent solution | 12:32 |
| scas | the homelab crowd actively shies away from openstack's complexity, which can be a great source of 'labor of love' type maintainers | 12:34 |
| scas | not that things should cater to any one individual or group, but provide clear-cut paths. it's an idealistic thing to say because reality says it'll take me, in a deploy project, way longer to make good on those aspirations | 12:35 |
| scas | chef has a good story surrounding the allinone monolith, which is a fine entry to the ecosystem. the larger deploy projects are getting there with allinone/quickstart type scenarios emerging | 12:36 |
| scas | the same primitives exist for getting to a full production deployment with some assembly required | 12:37 |
| scas | i know these things, and now folks here do, but 'the world' has no idea i even exist | 12:39 |
| scas | the point about deploy projects being products still rings in my head in this particular conundrum | 12:40 |
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| scas | that we all work in unstructured, coordinated stovepipes is likely to be the crux of the problem | 12:43 |
| cdent | that is a recurring theme | 12:43 |
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| mugsie | ttx: I think the "few caveats" is what we were talking about. It has gotten better recently, but in the ye olden days it was a real issue | 12:43 |
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| scas | i'd love to start expanding in terms of services supported again. if one looks at the chef cookbook list, some half a dozen are unmaintained despite deployments existing in the broader ecosystem. as upstream, nobody was providing feedback or seemingly showing interest in the future maintenance | 12:51 |
| scas | that's a hard one to handle when the number of services is "as much as can be supported". the point about it being a product ringing especially loud | 12:51 |
| scas | but if deploy projects are purpose-built for openstack, and they're not 'openstack', what are they? | 12:52 |
| scas | mashing the deploy projects into a sig might be too little, too late | 12:53 |
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| scas | on the other hand, it could be signaling of a refinement of what the 'big tent' notions muddied | 12:59 |
| scas | there's no clear-cut answer to 'what is openstack' because i can make the same claim as keystone and nova | 12:59 |
| scas | arguably, my deploy project is less significant in terms of success criticality, despite being pretty useful to those who use it | 13:00 |
| scas | it is, however, one of the paths to 'openstack' | 13:01 |
| dims | o/ | 13:02 |
| scas | the possessive terms aren't meant to signify anything but my position | 13:02 |
| scas | it's still 'by openstack, for openstack', regardless of me keeping the rope tied to the wheel | 13:02 |
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| openstackgerrit | Mohammed Naser proposed openstack/governance master: Add vice-chair to check-review-status https://review.openstack.org/587062 | 13:41 |
| openstackgerrit | Mohammed Naser proposed openstack/governance master: Fix crash with None value when no topic is set https://review.openstack.org/587063 | 13:41 |
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| smcginnis | cdent: I was getting nervous last PTL election, then there seemed to be a rush near the end to fill all the open roles. | 13:48 |
| pabelanger | I see 6 that still need to be validated / approved but still missing a bit of nominations | 13:54 |
| smcginnis | I wonder if we should think about some targeted recruiting. We still have just over a day left, and it's a Monday, so maybe folks will get on that today. | 13:57 |
| openstackgerrit | Mohammed Naser proposed openstack/governance master: Add vice-chair to check-review-status https://review.openstack.org/587062 | 14:07 |
| openstackgerrit | Mohammed Naser proposed openstack/governance master: Fix crash with None value when no topic is set https://review.openstack.org/587063 | 14:07 |
| * dtroyer "getting on that today" | 14:13 | |
| dtroyer | I hope I'm not alone in procrastinating | 14:13 |
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| mnaser | i wonder if we're better off getting rid of the PTL role itself | 14:20 |
| cdent | mnaser: for at least some project they provide a very useful orchestration role. what would replace that? | 14:21 |
| cdent | (I agree that the PTL as currently defined, may be too much) | 14:21 |
| ttx | Externally-speaking PTL is just a way of saying "contact point". Ideally PTL would delegate all work, esp. release work | 14:23 |
| mnaser | right, but that can be split amongst cores | 14:24 |
| ttx | The trick is that people see it as a glorified position, so if they are not "the elected one" they shy away from doing any coordination work | 14:24 |
| ttx | mnaser: I'd say it should be split. Nothing prevents that | 14:25 |
| zaneb | ttx: yeah, I was about to say that | 14:25 |
| zaneb | few people are excited about signing up for grunt work while somebody else gets all the attention | 14:25 |
| ttx | From a governance perspective, we need two things: at least one name to contact for anything related to that team, and a way to make final calls if needed | 14:25 |
| ttx | We collapsed both needs into a single solution | 14:26 |
| jroll | FWIW, in the few projects I interact with, the coordination work is shared between cores. e.g. dmitry helps a ton with ironic things, matt and dan help a ton with nova things | 14:26 |
| ttx | jroll: yes, but in smaller teams there is definitely a "you signed up for it" mentality | 14:26 |
| smcginnis | I could see having one "contact point" for a set of low activity projects too. | 14:27 |
| jroll | sure, just throwing out a data point :) | 14:27 |
| ttx | The PTL position was also a convenient way to proxy more "local" governance structures. you can organize internally however you want, externally we just need a name | 14:28 |
| mnaser | a liaison vs a ptl? | 14:28 |
| ttx | I see it as an API we can use to interact with the project team. Internally the roles can be filled by different people, but externally we don't need to know that, as long as we know of one default person | 14:30 |
| ttx | although in some cases we codified liaisons | 14:30 |
| ttx | to avoid bothering the PTL all the time | 14:30 |
| zaneb | rename it 'community contact person'? | 14:31 |
| ttx | Well, they serve two roles. One is ambassador/contact person | 14:31 |
| ttx | The other is "Bucket stops here" | 14:31 |
| ttx | which is needed so that you don't need it | 14:31 |
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| ttx | We conflated the two needs into a single role | 14:32 |
| ttx | so if you renamed it 'community contact person', that person would still have final say in case it's ever needed | 14:32 |
| smcginnis | Benevolent dictator for stein. | 14:33 |
| ttx | which probably only happened a handful of times since the creation of OpenStack | 14:33 |
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| ttx | but contests would happen a lot more if we did not have that safety valve | 14:34 |
| ttx | as demonstrated in other communities | 14:34 |
| mnaser | i feel like a lot of people might look at PTL as being this extra management-like position | 14:35 |
| ttx | Maybe we should force the release coordination to be done by another human | 14:35 |
| cdent | plenty of people want them to be a PM | 14:35 |
| ttx | once you have the PTL elected, just use them as safety valve / contact point and let them designate someone to do coordination | 14:36 |
| ttx | but then we are back to the trick I mentioned earlier | 14:36 |
| mugsie | cdent: a lot of the role can feel like PM'ing | 14:37 |
| jroll | is there a specific problem we're trying to solve by the changes we're discussing here? lack of candidates or something else? | 14:37 |
| mugsie | but, we need people to PM, and PM'ing a project by committee is tough | 14:37 |
| jroll | side note: zun moved to a single +2 for approvals to speed up the review process. good on them, interested to see how this goes | 14:37 |
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| mugsie | and, for some people having the PTL role is the only reason they can spend time on a project - if we got rid of that role, I think we would see people drop off | 14:38 |
| dtroyer | mugsie: would codifying the two roles ttx mentions as separate positions be a benefit in that regard? | 14:39 |
| dtroyer | in the case of empoyers I know first-hand it might be | 14:39 |
| ttx | jroll: yeah, let's wait to see if we actually have a problem, before jumping to solutions | 14:39 |
| pabelanger | mugsie: reason, to an employeer? | 14:39 |
| jroll | ttx: too late? :) | 14:39 |
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| mugsie | I think in smaller projects it would end up being the same person anyway - but it might allow some breathing room | 14:40 |
| mugsie | pabelanger: yeap | 14:40 |
| dtroyer | in my case it might, or it might also be a way to let an additional person get blessing to spend (more) time on a project because of the recognied position | 14:41 |
| smcginnis | mugsie: "if we | 14:41 |
| smcginnis | got rid of that role, I think we would see people drop off" - I agree | 14:41 |
| mugsie | I think that possibly the "buck stops here" person would be allowed time, but I worry the community contact person would be too abstract to be able to justify time with some employeers | 14:42 |
| mugsie | and unfortunately the "OpenStack infuencer" job market* has dried up a bit from the good old days, so we don't have as much negotiation power as we once had | 14:43 |
| smcginnis | mugsie: Yeah, I agree. | 14:43 |
| mugsie | * That is an awful phrase, but I can't think of a better way to put it | 14:44 |
| smcginnis | Hah, it pretty much sums it up though. | 14:44 |
| TheJulia | Reading the discussion, I can't help but feel like there is a desire to see a problem where people may just be taking their time to reflect and give the opportunity for others to step up. I concur it is too early to know if it is a problem or not. +1 to mugie's statements re PTL basically being a lot of PM'ing. | 14:46 |
| TheJulia | If there is a last minute surge, it would be good to poll those to try and understand why. | 14:47 |
| cdent | I did ask "At what point..." not "Fire fire, the sky is falling!" :) | 14:47 |
| dtroyer | I didn' think we are at the point where action is necessary but we should stay on top of this sort of trend (if it is one) so we do detect it early | 14:50 |
| smcginnis | cdent: Jeez man, stop panicking all the time. | 14:51 |
| cdent | fire fire | 14:51 |
| mugsie | TheJulia: when people ask what I do as PTL, I generally have something about herding cats, who actually have different managers, and as such listen about 30% of the time :) | 14:53 |
| TheJulia | mmmm FIRE | 14:55 |
| mugsie | I would say it is time to worry for some projects - e.g. Oslo / Docs / Octavia / Barbican / Trove are all missing candiates right now. They are all important projects. | 14:56 |
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| scas | i reluctantly put my name on the hat five times, each time the argument to myself is that "if i don't do it, nobody else will" | 16:01 |
| scas | while chef may not be as crucial as, say, barbican, i consider it one of the many paths to openstack | 16:02 |
| scas | without paths, it becomes a monoculture. the balance is kept by someone doing what i do, after the band has all packed up and the house lights came on | 16:03 |
| scas | not to mention, if i let it wither completely, there are some major decisions that have to be made in the corporate ecosystem. the average chef deployment, in terms of managing openstack, is not small | 16:04 |
| scas | one could argue that a cosmic shift needs to happen, but that's more of a product roadmap for something that has paying users | 16:05 |
| cdent | I sometimes, but not always, wonder if letting things wither is the only salient strategy for lack of corporate contribution | 16:05 |
| scas | possible. more than once i've been tempted to let nature do whatever it wants to | 16:06 |
| scas | i don't because i know the knock-on effect | 16:06 |
| scas | the sunk cost fallacy of the existing first gen deployments is strong. unless you do a drastic shift, decisions from five years ago are still in play | 16:07 |
| scas | the adoption is slower than the development, usually by a couple of named releases | 16:08 |
| scas | in the greater blagosphere, i've seen murmurings of the mental cost of deploying openstack to be too great to undertake, even with the second and third gen deployers | 16:09 |
| scas | docker/k8s evolve so quickly that something documented a week ago may or may not work. on the other hand, i can slap a monolithic openstack instance on my laptop in about the time it takes to cook a pizza and burn your mouth on the first bite | 16:10 |
| scas | but that flexibility may or may not be super apparent. my gut says it's not. | 16:11 |
| mugsie | deployment tools are great at install. what people have issues with is long term maintence. (k8s is having the same issues, but have less moving parts that need to be deployed on the metal so it is not a pronounced) | 16:14 |
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| scas | yeah. the long-term maintenance is a pain unless you've a team behind the effort. usually three. | 16:15 |
| mugsie | e.g. doing a deploy is easy(ish) but I need to convert 5 nodes to CPU pinned, wiht weird kvm emulator thread pinning, but the tool doesn't support it, so it is manually done. and this happens so much that the deployer cannot use the tool to update ever again | 16:16 |
| scas | quite. some will just work around the problem on their end, and never engage upstream | 16:17 |
| mugsie | sure, and I get that. e.g. our team can get requests like that with 30 days notice, and that is nowhere near enough time to do the upstream thing, and by the time we are done the next fire is burning its way down the mountain | 16:19 |
| mugsie | (we also work via a vendor, so trying to engage upstream can be a lot more problematic) | 16:20 |
| scas | yeah. that's also probably some of the point about deploy projects being products in foss clothing | 16:20 |
| scas | for the overarching stuff, letting 'the community' figure things out is so far proving to be pretty sad times | 16:21 |
| scas | i'm trying not to be too critical. it's a balance, because it's about being inclusive without being too exclusive | 16:22 |
| scas | if the answer to 'what is openstack' means that automation/lifecycle focused projects are 'not-openstack', there needs to be some sort of cushion | 16:25 |
| scas | in retrospect, the big tent concept likely should have been a more tempered sig-based grouping, but it's pretty far down the road to veer off in a different direction | 16:27 |
| scas | centos does a similar concept with sigs | 16:28 |
| scas | the success can be either grand, or not at all. i joined a centos sig some time ago, but the mission got out there in a mixed way which drove away all the contributors | 16:29 |
| scas | nobody wanted to repackage eol software, when the upstreams themselves didn't even do it | 16:29 |
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| scas | that, to me, harkens to the benevolent dictator practice in open source -- not 'for life', but 'for now' | 16:31 |
| scas | the esr definition is implied here, natch | 16:34 |
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| mnaser | tc-members: if i can take a minute of your time, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/584047/ is an amendment to the charter which requires 9 approvers. if anyone out of those who havent checked it has a few minutes to review it, as we'll need 4 days after we have our last minimum approval :) | 17:38 |
| pabelanger | mnaser: thanks, voted | 17:39 |
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| scas | dare i say, rocky is in the final stages, and i'm on the current development focus | 17:41 |
| scas | for my effort, that's something noteworthy | 17:41 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Add vice-chair to check-review-status https://review.openstack.org/587062 | 20:22 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Fix crash with None value when no topic is set https://review.openstack.org/587063 | 20:22 |
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| fungi | i haven't directly compared to previous ptl elections, but it doesn't seem like we're significantly outside the usual envelope of last-minute nominations yet | 23:19 |
| fungi | quite a few incumbents delay nominating to encourage others in the community to do so | 23:20 |
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