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| fungi | why have i never heard of https://www.loomio.org/ until now? | 12:28 |
|---|---|---|
| fungi | https://github.com/loomio/loomio is the source code | 12:30 |
| fungi | an interesting alternative to traditional rigid survey models, at least | 12:32 |
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| smcginnis | fungi: Cool, I never heard of that either. | 12:47 |
| scas | we're part of the 10,000! | 12:49 |
| scas | i, too, have never heard of that | 12:49 |
| scas | obligatory: https://xkcd.com/1053/ | 12:49 |
| smcginnis | heh | 12:52 |
| scas | i'm not going to like it, you're not going to like it, but my gut says i'll be self-approving chef changes until such time i can recruit someone else to review | 12:55 |
| smcginnis | Desperate times... | 12:57 |
| scas | in the past, conversations have come up, at least before kubernetes ate the core team, about moving the cookbooks to github. my gut feeling also says that that would be worse off than staying within the current model and 'just making it work' | 13:02 |
| cdent | scas: was the theory there that moving to github would make the cookbooks more visible to random people who want a drive-by interaction rather than the current model? | 13:03 |
| smcginnis | scas: Do you see any chance of moving that leading to potentially more casual contributors? | 13:03 |
| smcginnis | Hah, what cdent saud. | 13:03 |
| smcginnis | *said | 13:03 |
| scas | cdent: smcginnis: the theory being that ramping up on contributing with the openstack space elicited too much friction, not to mention learning chef openstack's nuances | 13:04 |
| scas | it's very purpose-built stuff. bringing it in to the openstack space years ago made sense because it would have been seen as just another random fork of cookbooks | 13:04 |
| scas | in fact, it was seen as just another random fork, until the big tent notion came about | 13:05 |
| smcginnis | I could see having it here would make it more official. | 13:05 |
| scas | moving to the github model would place a significant amount of burden on maintainers, as instead of one place for filing regressions or soliciting feedback, i suddenly have 16 repos all with issues and prs of their own | 13:06 |
| scas | i have a singular view within openstack, so it's easier, for me, to wrangle all of the repos at once | 13:07 |
| scas | i've simply failed to show others how that can be | 13:07 |
| scas | to enact any significant change, one can't just grab one repo and hack on it | 13:08 |
| scas | as far as it attracting more casual contributors, github feels like more of a death knell than me whinging for a bit, then going back to working on docs or integration efforts | 13:11 |
| scas | i've had similar conversations within sous-chefs, which lives entirely on github. they have a decent model, but the platform of choice is a shifting sand | 13:12 |
| smcginnis | scas: Yeah, I would be a little worried that it might enable a few casual contributors at the expense of long term project health. | 13:12 |
| scas | it's not talked about often, but chef still enjoys a silent userbase | 13:15 |
| scas | i like for those users to be happy, even if they don't dedicate resources. it's stockholm syndrome from running my own b2b companies | 13:15 |
| smcginnis | :) | 13:16 |
| cdent | bbl | 13:16 |
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| scas | aside from 'Other Tool' having more deployment share, chef sits at the #3 deployment choice in the openstack space. as far as i can tell, they're mostly in production | 13:19 |
| scas | there's somewhat of a motivator to keep that momentum going, however protracted it may be | 13:19 |
| scas | particularly since the percentage increased by 1% from survey to survey | 13:20 |
| scas | that could be an artifact of a shrinking segment, but, still, numbers are numbers | 13:20 |
| smcginnis | scas: I wonder if doing a superuser article might be a way to attract attention to the project. | 13:29 |
| scas | could be. every could of years, someone has put on a presentation or a superuser talk | 13:29 |
| scas | s/could/couple/ | 13:29 |
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| scas | i intended to present at vancouver with onboarding and an update. an unfortunate set of circumstances precluded me from being there | 13:30 |
| scas | at this point, i can see the next chance to present to the purpose-built crowd being the T summit, unless there are onboarding/updates happening at berlin and i happen to make it | 13:32 |
| scas | superuser would be the next best thing, so i can show what we've done. a lot of work has gone into the 'just give me openstack' experience | 13:36 |
| scas | allinone may be the best supported scenario, which comes just shy of melting a macbook pro | 13:36 |
| scas | that, and getting docs.o.o presence to better flesh out the choices that do exist | 13:38 |
| scas | i'll probably want to do a superuser article after the gerrit downtime and i can rewrite my docs to make them actually publishable | 13:45 |
| TheJulia | scas: Perhaps projects which you consume or support (in terms of install/config) could mention the that level of support in order to kind of an indirect interest? | 13:45 |
| TheJulia | Like, if there is ironic support, I would happily dedicate a slide or two | 13:46 |
| TheJulia | (during the ironic project update that is) | 13:46 |
| scas | used to be, but we couldn't maintain it even at low numbers | 13:47 |
| scas | there's a cookbook, but it needs to be refactored by an order of magnitude | 13:47 |
| scas | there are several of those | 13:47 |
| scas | 'core' is fairly well supported except swift | 13:48 |
| scas | in 3 years, we had maybe 1 bug on swift | 13:49 |
| scas | that was in the dark ages, when integration was fraught with error, before tempest. no way it was that stable then | 13:49 |
| scas | back then, there numbered nine cores | 13:50 |
| TheJulia | It might be worthwhile to reach out to some PTLs of core projects so they have visibility and can convey that? | 13:51 |
| scas | that might be worthwhile. i think the value may be better conveyed if i do that after the gerrit downtime. html docs look better than my walls of text | 13:53 |
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| scas | a few days of solid coffee-addled coding would probably get other services supported. ENOTIME beholden, unfortunately | 13:58 |
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| scas | my backlog includes resurrecting those 'unsupported' services | 14:00 |
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| TheJulia | ENOTIME is a common thing sadly :( | 14:11 |
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| scas | most projects are one or two code repositories at best. i surprise myself sometimes that i can wrangle something with the breadth and depth as chef openstack | 14:54 |
| scas | with someone to review what i write, a superuser article may breathe a little on the embers that exist. it'll make more sense once i can give links to functional docs | 15:00 |
| lbragstad_ | smcginnis: the deadline for completing community goals work is supposed to be rocky-3 yeah? | 15:03 |
| lbragstad_ | https://releases.openstack.org/rocky/schedule.html | 15:03 |
| smcginnis | lbragstad_: Yeah... sadness. | 15:04 |
| lbragstad_ | ok - i assume we have to wait until Stein to implement that then? We were waiting on a massive refactor in order to implement the mutable config goal | 15:05 |
| smcginnis | lbragstad_: Yeah, if keystone hasn't done that yet, with feature freeze you probably want to wait until Stein now. | 15:05 |
| lbragstad_ | ack | 15:05 |
| lbragstad_ | thansk smcginnis | 15:06 |
| lbragstad_ | cc knikolla ^ | 15:06 |
| smcginnis | lbragstad_: Unless you think it would be minor and low risk to still get in, but at this point I would think waiting is good. | 15:06 |
| scas | speaking of releases, the code told me it's time to release chef openstack. better late than never | 15:07 |
| scas | that would give me that area of time to get with the program on the releases repo | 15:07 |
| scas | there's no harm in waiting for the coordinated release to send it out, other than timing, and me getting a start on the next one sooner than later | 15:09 |
| smcginnis | scas: Hmm, looks like we've never done Chef OpenStack official releases? | 15:12 |
| smcginnis | scas: Usually deployment projects like chef follow the cycle-trailing model that gives some time after everything else wraps up to finalize things. | 15:12 |
| smcginnis | scas: Since they are also consumers of everything else, so there's usually time needed to adjust to any last minute changes. | 15:13 |
| scas | cycle-trailing is generous ;) | 15:13 |
| scas | ENOTIME beholden, it takes me (with someone else to review) roughly a six months to stabilize | 15:14 |
| scas | if i slam patches in as they pass tests, i can probably cut that time down, at the risk of stability. my compensation there is focusing on the integration story | 15:14 |
| smcginnis | scas: I think right now we just raised the trailing time from 2 weeks to 2 months. :) | 15:15 |
| scas | very generous. | 15:16 |
| smcginnis | scas: But even with cycle-trailing, we do require at least two milestone releases during the cycle as checkpoints. So it would be too late to get chef added to rocky. | 15:16 |
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| smcginnis | scas: But it would be good if we can shoot to get things going in stein. | 15:16 |
| scas | smcginnis: yep. i know. | 15:16 |
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| scas | i'm planning on short-ordering rocky support as soon as stable packages drop. the time, again, is usually waiting for reviews to happen. i'd like to get coordinated for stein | 15:17 |
| smcginnis | scas: Great. Let me know if/when you have time for getting things set up. | 15:17 |
| smcginnis | scas: Maybe getting as part of the official cycle deliverables could be another good step to get more visiblity for the project. | 15:18 |
| scas | that's the idea. mitaka was painful, and it's been difficult to catch up | 15:18 |
| scas | taking a more 'benevolent dictator' approach is about the only way to get with the times | 15:19 |
| scas | esr definition, natch | 15:19 |
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| fungi | when you have only one major contributor, it's a stretch to paint that as a "benevolent dictator" model. you could just as well say it's unanimous agreement of all regular contributors on all merged changes | 17:45 |
| scas | fair point. from being from the southern US, i have a certain... way with words | 17:57 |
| scas | if i pump the metaphor, it's akin to a silent dinner, where everyone nods in agreement at whatever i serve | 17:59 |
| scas | further to that metaphor, what i serve _is_ pretty tasty, if you're into that kind of metaphor | 18:00 |
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| fungi | scas: wait, dinner or supper? we southerners differentiate those ;) | 19:01 |
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| scas | fungi: upscale dinner, given the type of user still using the first gen tooling | 19:31 |
| scas | $X required to dine, if you will | 19:31 |
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| scas | some do prefer the flavor palate of ansible these days, so the metaphor is starting to fall apart | 19:33 |
| scas | i see it as not having enough variety, being more on a rotation than a bespoke menu | 19:35 |
| scas | to flagellate the metaphor beyond value... | 19:36 |
| scas | that may paint enough of a picture to see what i see, to some extent | 19:37 |
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| notmyname | I assume http://logs.openstack.org/23/586723/1/check/openstack-tox-py35/e871dac/job-output.txt.gz#_2018-07-27_23_43_52_905606 is transient? on the elections repo | 23:50 |
| notmyname | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/586723/ | 23:50 |
| clarkb | notmyname: I think so, I can list pbr versions off thzt mirror from here | 23:54 |
| notmyname | clarkb: ok. I'll recheck it, but otherwise not worry about it during the weekend :-) | 23:56 |
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