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| dims | o/ | 12:22 |
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| mnaser | morning from rainy montreal o/ | 12:46 |
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| TheJulia | o/ | 14:15 |
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| dhellmann | o/ | 14:32 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Update Zun PTL email address https://review.openstack.org/571607 | 14:33 |
| dhellmann | tc-members: we need to decide what to do with late goal updates like https://review.openstack.org/557863 | 14:37 |
| dhellmann | please comment on the review | 14:37 |
| smcginnis | I've always thought of them as semi-working documents that would get updated over time. | 14:37 |
| smcginnis | Since we know not all projects are able to complete cycle goals on time, don't we want them to come back after the given cycle with updates? | 14:37 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Minor grammatical fixes to new project requirements https://review.openstack.org/571344 | 14:38 |
| cmurphy | smcginnis: ++ | 14:38 |
| fungi | ahh, yeah i thought i had weighed in on the overall idea, but i guess we only discussed it in here | 14:38 |
| fungi | the problem with that is at what point can we actually close them out as historical? we don't want to be taking changes to them until the end of time, and since we've switched away from using code review for tracking those things i think we'd rather freeze them sooner than later? | 14:39 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: provide more detail about the expectations we place on goal champions https://review.openstack.org/564060 | 14:39 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: charms: add Glance Simplestreams Sync charm https://review.openstack.org/566958 | 14:39 |
| smcginnis | fungi: That is a fair point. | 14:39 |
| smcginnis | Maybe a policy that if the work completes after the cycle, it's prepended with **cyle-name** to indicate it was not included in that cycle. | 14:40 |
| smcginnis | And then we do have some detail as to when the goal was completed for each. | 14:40 |
| smcginnis | So if someone comes to this doc looking to deploy pike and wondering if they can do it all in py3, they can at least see what they can and cannot do. | 14:41 |
| smcginnis | And maybe learn that if they update to a release or two later they can get what they are looking for. | 14:41 |
| fungi | i'll leave a fresh comment, but i'm of the opinion that after the cycle is over there's little point in tracking future compliance. the final state is the projects which have that goal met at release time | 14:41 |
| cdent | I've never been clear what the reporting is for other than some cognitive scaffolding for the projects, so it is hard to have an opinion | 14:43 |
| cdent | biab | 14:43 |
| smcginnis | fungi: My only concern there is if someone finds this doc as they are looking into py3 support and sees that a few projects had not completed the goal, where do they then go from there? | 14:44 |
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| zaneb | I'm inclined to say that if we're not expecting updates then we should delete it from the repo altogether | 15:09 |
| zaneb | inaccurate out-of-date documentation is worse than no documentation | 15:10 |
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| dhellmann | cdent : the reason for the reporting was to have a trigger for projects to engage (their planning docs) and then so the TC didn't have to be project managers (their completion docs) | 15:20 |
| dhellmann | I did at one point propose that we move all of the existing tracking to storyboard, which doesn't require reviews to be kept up to date. | 15:20 |
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| smcginnis | dhellmann: We're doing that for current goals, right? | 15:26 |
| smcginnis | dhellmann: Maybe we need to remove or mark those old goal docs as legacy and out of date to make it clear they are not a current statement of ongoing status. | 15:27 |
| dhellmann | smcginnis : yes | 15:27 |
| dhellmann | marking the documents as "done" makes sense | 15:27 |
| smcginnis | "This document was used for tracking progress during the goal cycle and should not be used to determine the current state of the goal for all projects" | 15:28 |
| smcginnis | Something along those lines. | 15:28 |
| dhellmann | I'd have to go back and look at what the existing goal docs say about late updates | 15:28 |
| dhellmann | I feel like we said we'd just keep updating the existing docs as we went along, but we may never have written that down | 15:28 |
| cmurphy | is there another document to point to for the current state of completion? i'm sure it would be useful to know what projects are py35 ready even if they didn't finish by pike | 15:29 |
| smcginnis | cmurphy: ++ | 15:30 |
| smcginnis | We're lacking a way to get from the goal to discover current state. | 15:30 |
| dhellmann | there's a wiki page for python 3 | 15:35 |
| dhellmann | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Python3#Python_3_Status_of_OpenStack_projects | 15:35 |
| smcginnis | True. At least that is more discoverable than an etherpad. | 15:42 |
| smcginnis | Maybe we should update the py3 goal doc with a message stating its purpose and a pointer to that wiki page. | 15:42 |
| cmurphy | it might be good to have something similar for other goals, like policy-in-code | 15:44 |
| dhellmann | for the newer ones, we link over to the storyboard story | 15:46 |
| cmurphy | ah right | 15:46 |
| dhellmann | I'm just uncertain about what to do because we're in the middle of changing from one tool to another. I know what I would do, but I want to know what the rest of the team thinks before I move any data around | 15:48 |
| * cdent reads the review again | 15:51 | |
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| ttx | I'll be on a plane at the TC office hour time for tomorrow, have fun without me | 16:32 |
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| zaneb | dhellmann: is migrating past goals to storyboard feasible? That seems like the best solution in principle, but I don't know how much work it is | 16:59 |
| dhellmann | creating the stories is automated but someone would have to manually move the rest of the data. we only have a few. | 16:59 |
| EmilienM | number of goals x number of projects who worked on the goals | 16:59 |
| EmilienM | it can be some work | 16:59 |
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| kmalloc | o/ TC members, can I get a read on something related to Keystone. Keystone has dropped API v2.0 completely... except for 2 things that got missed in the initial deprecation messaging | 18:13 |
| kmalloc | as it stands, we would need to keep that around until.. the "T" release [i think] | 18:13 |
| kmalloc | the rest of v2.0 is removed from our tree, this is the old path for ec2tokens [specifically] | 18:13 |
| kmalloc | would there be significant complaints about dropping this last lingering bit outside of the original agreed upon deprecation cycle only because of missed deprecation warning messages in keystone | 18:14 |
| kmalloc | lbragstad: ^ please fill in if i missed anything | 18:14 |
| cdent | kmalloc: if the rest of the api is not there, is the ec2tokens stuff still useful? | 18:15 |
| * lbragstad follows along | 18:16 | |
| kmalloc | you can technically use it | 18:16 |
| kmalloc | however, we have a v3 version of the ec2tokens | 18:16 |
| lbragstad | it's literally the same API i think | 18:16 |
| kmalloc | it's just the /v2.0/ec2tokens bit still lingering | 18:16 |
| kmalloc | it's wired up to be the exact same API | 18:16 |
| kmalloc | with a different path, but it is holding over having to route any of /v2.0 | 18:16 |
| kmalloc | it's a weird situation and it really is only around because a controller or two missed a deprecation warning decorator even though v2.0 was massively deprecated for a long time before | 18:17 |
| cdent | I would think that 2.0s death was sufficiently notified | 18:18 |
| cdent | but I tend to be spirit rather than letter oriented when it comes to these things | 18:18 |
| kmalloc | cdent: so do I, but I want to make sure I'm not running afoul of anything people have legit concerns about :) | 18:18 |
| kmalloc | and api removal is... touchy :) | 18:19 |
| cdent | we'll have to locate some alternate input. tc-members ^^ | 18:19 |
| kmalloc | WFM, i'm here to answer questions if anything comes up (lbragstad can answer too) | 18:20 |
| mnaser | don't things like heat tools rely on it for some things (i think?) | 18:20 |
| dims | kmalloc : +1 to pull the plug (personally) | 18:21 |
| kmalloc | mnaser: don't think they lean on the /v2.0 stuff since /v2.0 is gone. | 18:21 |
| kmalloc | mnaser: we're keeping the /v3 version for sure. | 18:21 |
| mnaser | maybe we could reach out to the mailing list and hear if there are any users of it still? | 18:22 |
| jroll | what is the ec2tokens api useful for? can you use those tokens to auth to other bits in openstack? | 18:23 |
| jroll | or were they tied to the nova ec2 api somehow? | 18:23 |
| smcginnis | kmalloc: My opinion, but if you announced /v2 was deprecated and then announced /v2 was removed, I think it's fine to remove these last little bits. | 18:23 |
| TheJulia | It seems to make sense to ask operators to possibly check logs? That seems like the true indicator if it is possible to do so sinner rather than later. | 18:23 |
| TheJulia | Sooner. Yay for autocorrect | 18:23 |
| kmalloc | jroll: some folks utilize it for compat with aws tools since we can get auth with the ec2 tokens that way | 18:23 |
| smcginnis | TheJulia: Thought maybe Feudian slip. :) | 18:24 |
| cdent | sinners be using old apis | 18:24 |
| kmalloc | jroll: it plays in heavily with the ec2api [external project] | 18:24 |
| jroll | kmalloc: what other openstack APIs... okay, right | 18:24 |
| smcginnis | *freudian | 18:24 |
| kmalloc | jroll: i know heat used it at one point for stuff | 18:24 |
| cdent | smcginnis: i subscribe to your goal newsletter | 18:24 |
| fungi | yeah, we say there's a deprecation period but we don't get into the weeds about how you implement deprecation that i've seen. announcing widely and documenting that the v2.0 api is deprecated in its entirety seems sufficient even if a couple of methods missed a decorator when it came time to implement | 18:24 |
| smcginnis | :) | 18:24 |
| kmalloc | jroll: i really can't tell you who/what uses it | 18:24 |
| jroll | kmalloc: and you've reminded me that project still exists, just not in nova's tree, so my questions don't matter as much I guess | 18:24 |
| jroll | (the ec2api project) | 18:25 |
| kmalloc | jroll: :P | 18:25 |
| TheJulia | smcginnis: if so, I’ll blame the glass of wine I had with dinner. ;) | 18:25 |
| lbragstad | fungi: from my pov, we were trying to be consistent in wrapping the v2.0 routes with deprecation warning | 18:25 |
| kmalloc | jroll: i know, i try and forget some of that stuff when i can too | 18:25 |
| smcginnis | TheJulia: Hah! | 18:25 |
| lbragstad | warnings* | 18:25 |
| kmalloc | lbragstad: but the warnings only go to operators | 18:25 |
| lbragstad | right | 18:25 |
| jroll | kmalloc: :) | 18:25 |
| lbragstad | we just missed a couple of those paths unfortunately | 18:25 |
| kmalloc | but all of v2.0 was long since marked, it was truely a simple copy-paste oversight | 18:26 |
| lbragstad | right | 18:26 |
| kmalloc | TheJulia: wine is good :) esp. with dinner! | 18:26 |
| TheJulia | It sounds like fire should be applied in that case | 18:26 |
| cdent | kmalloc I continue to think: it's okay to kill | 18:26 |
| kmalloc | cdent: ++, i'm feeling like the sentiment is "it's ok to kill" | 18:27 |
| * jroll thinks kill it with the rest but does not have a TC hat | 18:27 | |
| kmalloc | and maybe we should just fire an email to the mailing(lists) informing folks of this change. | 18:27 |
| * cdent gives jroll a TC hat to try on | 18:27 | |
| kmalloc | and the reasoning. | 18:27 |
| cdent | good plan | 18:27 |
| mnaser | i don't think anyone is opposed to it unless we hear of an operator that expresses concern that we missed | 18:27 |
| kmalloc | cdent: i had a tc hat at one point... it didn't fit well | 18:27 |
| mnaser | it would be better to hear input from a bigger group | 18:28 |
| jroll | could always do it in a separate commit that could be reverted, if that isn't too painful | 18:28 |
| kmalloc | i'll wire up the removal as a commit we can revert | 18:28 |
| kmalloc | mostly i'm reworking all of keystone to flask | 18:28 |
| cdent | yay! | 18:28 |
| mnaser | don't forget a release note this time (ha) | 18:28 |
| kmalloc | and i wanted to avoid wiring up old /v2.0 paths | 18:28 |
| kmalloc | mnaser: hehe | 18:28 |
| jroll | also makes it easy for people to revert downstream if they don't want to speak up | 18:28 |
| kmalloc | jroll: not exactly :P | 18:28 |
| kmalloc | jroll: move to flask is very invasive | 18:28 |
| cdent | seems like people who want to keep the functionality can stay old | 18:29 |
| jroll | kmalloc: well if downstream can't easily revert it, how would upstream? | 18:29 |
| cdent | that's always been the option | 18:29 |
| kmalloc | jroll: i can revert the removal and wire it up | 18:29 |
| kmalloc | the wire-up paths wont exist | 18:29 |
| jroll | ah gotcha | 18:29 |
| kmalloc | wiring it up isn't hard, but i want to avoid doing it at all and the potential bugs if i don't have to | 18:29 |
| kmalloc | cdent: also, we're dropping paste.deploy on the cutting room floor | 18:30 |
| cdent | yay! | 18:30 |
| kmalloc | cdent: which is a big win, imo | 18:30 |
| cdent | yes, very | 18:30 |
| TheJulia | It feels like we have consensus | 18:30 |
| kmalloc | TheJulia: ++ | 18:30 |
| kmalloc | i'll get an email written to -operators and -dev | 18:30 |
| kmalloc | or.. whichever mailing lists | 18:30 |
| TheJulia | Awesome, and with that I go sleep() | 18:31 |
| kmalloc | and i'll not wire it up, but isolate the removal to a single commit | 18:31 |
| kmalloc | TheJulia: sleep well! | 18:31 |
| kmalloc | TheJulia: sleep(time.until_morning_and_rested()) | 18:31 |
| TheJulia | ++ | 18:31 |
| kmalloc | cdent: thanks! :) btw, was really good to see ya at vancouver. | 18:31 |
| zaneb | +1 for killing it | 18:32 |
| kmalloc | zaneb: thanks! :) | 18:32 |
| cdent | kmalloc: same | 18:32 |
| zaneb | release notes are more important than decorators imho | 18:32 |
| smcginnis | kmalloc: Would love to see a write up of the move to using flask at some point if that's at all a possibility. | 18:32 |
| cdent | smcginnis++ | 18:33 |
| zaneb | if release notes said v2 was going away then v2 can go away | 18:33 |
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| kmalloc | smcginnis: totally. i'll have a big write up on what we did and the big changes going on with it | 18:33 |
| smcginnis | kmalloc: \o/ | 18:33 |
| kmalloc | smcginnis: the hard part was isolating keystone bits in a way to ensure we can move just one path at once e.g. /users or /projects | 18:33 |
| kmalloc | smcginnis: if you want to see the patch https://review.openstack.org/#/c/568377/7 | 18:34 |
| smcginnis | Oh, I could imagine. That sounds tricky. | 18:34 |
| smcginnis | kmalloc: Thanks! | 18:34 |
| kmalloc | smcginnis: the key bits are in keystone.server.flask.application and it's the middleware | 18:34 |
| kmalloc | smcginnis: that does the PATH_INFO and SCRIPT_NAME rewriting | 18:34 |
| kmalloc | smcginnis: so we dispatch to webob/mapper for specific paths until we migrate each one. | 18:35 |
| kmalloc | smcginnis: we're also going to do a big restructure of keystone's code to show what is routable (REST) and what is not in the process. | 18:35 |
| smcginnis | Excellent | 18:35 |
| kmalloc | smcginnis: e.g. keystone.subsystem.identity will be the identity subsystem rather than keystone.identity | 18:35 |
| kmalloc | but things like keystone.exception (not RESTful routing things and shared) wont be moved | 18:35 |
| kmalloc | and we'll be all flask + Flask-Restful/Restplus with blueprints when done | 18:36 |
| kmalloc | (we'll = keystone) | 18:36 |
| kmalloc | i'll plan to write up a long blog post (hey, time to bring my blog back) on how to do this type of thing | 18:36 |
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| smcginnis | ++ | 18:37 |
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| cdent | zaneb: if you'll have me, I'd like to help with the technical vision task | 18:41 |
| zaneb | cdent: sure! | 18:42 |
| cdent | i'll put my name on the wiki | 18:42 |
| zaneb | I need to start typing up some ideas, it hasn't made it to the top of the to-do list yet | 18:42 |
| cdent | i know how that can be | 18:42 |
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| dhellmann | kmalloc , et al: ec2-api is an official team, fwiw: https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/projects/ec2-api.html so maybe loop them into the discussion? | 19:06 |
| kmalloc | dhellmann: sure, it still works with the /v3 bits, we're keeping the functionality. | 19:13 |
| dhellmann | kmalloc ok. I was keying on your comment calling it an "external" project | 19:13 |
| kmalloc | yep | 19:13 |
| kmalloc | :) | 19:13 |
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| cdent | mriedem: I believe, but am not fully certain, that python3 first simply means that the test jobs default to python3 and that developers running tox will run python3 when they don't otherwise specify | 20:56 |
| dhellmann | cdent, mriedem : yes, that's the idea. Right now we default to python 2 unless specified otherwise. "Python 3 first" means flipping that around, for all uses of python. | 21:00 |
| dhellmann | I'm working on writing up the tox.ini changes and project-config changes needed to do that | 21:00 |
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| mriedem | ok, that doesn't seem like something that's going to be all that hard | 21:55 |
| mriedem | so, i'd suggest we put emphasis on something else as a community wide goal which will require more work/engagement | 21:56 |
| smcginnis | There are differences with some of the tools. But if it really is something minor, maybe we should pick it as a third stretch goal. | 22:17 |
| smcginnis | I have a feeling it will uncover a few issues though. | 22:17 |
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