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| openstackgerrit | Hongbin Lu proposed openstack/governance master: Update Zun PTL email address https://review.openstack.org/571607 | 01:58 |
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| openstackgerrit | Samuel Cassiba proposed openstack/governance master: Add openstackclient to Chef OpenStack https://review.openstack.org/571504 | 03:03 |
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| zaneb | TIL there is a PTL who has never posted to the -dev mailing list | 14:23 |
| smcginnis | I could see that happening. | 14:23 |
| mnaser | if the teams are smaller sometimes the discussion mostly happens over irc | 14:27 |
| openstackgerrit | Samuel Cassiba proposed openstack/governance master: Add openstackclient to Chef OpenStack https://review.openstack.org/571504 | 14:42 |
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| * mnaser is a little surprised at how there was no responses to the starlingx update email | 15:19 | |
| dtroyer | mnaser: I was planning one, am just now surfacing from travel :) | 15:20 |
| mnaser | no worries :p | 15:20 |
| dtroyer | and thank you for that | 15:20 |
| mnaser | dtroyer: really sorry, i missed two things in the review | 15:21 |
| dtroyer | I didn't want storyboard for those two | 15:22 |
| mnaser | oh | 15:22 |
| dtroyer | do I need the group anyway? | 15:22 |
| mnaser | it is a false | 15:22 |
| mnaser | you are right | 15:22 |
| dtroyer | I'm still not exactly sure what I should have storyboard set up for and what not, maybe we should do them all anyway? | 15:23 |
| mnaser | maybe diablo_rojo | 15:23 |
| mnaser | can help answer some of that :) | 15:23 |
| dtroyer | it is also partly not being sure how the new teams will use it. we're weaning folk off Jira for this, they have a tight grip | 15:24 |
| dims | ttx : dhellmann : smcginnis : fyi, https://github.com/xrally | 15:30 |
| smcginnis | dims: Hmm, looks like the same team. So maybe they have already moved themselves out of governance. | 15:31 |
| dims | fungi : what do you think of this one? https://postmeritocracy.org/ (others too!) | 15:38 |
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| dhellmann | dtroyer : do you already have launchpad set up? or are bugs being tracked somewhere else? | 16:01 |
| dhellmann | oh, jira | 16:01 |
| dhellmann | hrm | 16:01 |
| dhellmann | I guess given the attempt to shift everyone else over to storyboard, that seems like a good default, but it's not really a requirement in this case | 16:02 |
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| dtroyer | dhellmann: we have internal Jira for the open-sourcing effort | 16:43 |
| dtroyer | the shift back to development is what we need to figure out next | 16:43 |
| dhellmann | yeah | 16:43 |
| dtroyer | I wasn't sure if we should have multiple categories or how the mapping to repos should work. that's isn't nearly as much of a committment as repos (living forever) so we'll sort it as we go | 16:44 |
| dhellmann | dtroyer: we're looking for roadblocks to bringing other projects into SB, other than "momentum", so if you have feedback that would be useful | 16:44 |
| dhellmann | do you mean for the "groups" setting? | 16:44 |
| dtroyer | yeah, that's it. /me still an SB noob | 16:45 |
| dhellmann | each repo can be mapped to multiple groups | 16:45 |
| dhellmann | you can do things like show all of the open issues in a group | 16:45 |
| dhellmann | so it's just another organizational tool | 16:45 |
| dhellmann | stories have tasks and tasks are attached to repos, like in LP | 16:45 |
| dhellmann | LP has groups, too, but there a project can only be in 1 group | 16:46 |
| dtroyer | that is likely the restriction I still had in mind | 16:46 |
| dhellmann | yeah, it took me a while to get the data model straight enough that I could figure out how to use the tool | 16:47 |
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| dhellmann | dims : I've seen that making the rounds on twitter, but I'm not sure where it originated. I try to place more value (and "merit") in people doing things and helping others than in technical "smarts". | 17:01 |
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| fungi | dims: dhellmann: yeah, i tend to see our community as being more of a "do-ocracy" (like debian also likes to claim). basically those who do the work get to decide how the work is done | 17:09 |
| cdent | fungi, dhellmann : I think those kinds of statements underestimate the barriers to "doing" | 17:12 |
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| cdent | and that's rather the point of critiques of do-ocracy and merittocracy | 17:12 |
| dhellmann | given the amount of time we spend begging for help in areas, I think I'm pretty aware that there are barriers | 17:13 |
| fungi | i think that self-preservation for the community depends on making it easier for everyone to "do" but that doesn't invalidate the benefits | 17:13 |
| fungi | i certainly agree that claims of "merit" are baseless | 17:14 |
| fungi | i don't think that letting the people who do the work decide how (collectively) it should be done is a bad thing | 17:14 |
| fungi | as the alternative is letting someone who isn't doing the work tell you how to do it | 17:15 |
| cdent | that's not the only alternative | 17:15 |
| fungi | sure, for completeness the third option is to not decide how things will be done and just see what happens | 17:15 |
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| cdent | I'm sure there's more than that. | 17:16 |
| fungi | ultimately, in an environment where contributors (and i'm not just talking about code contributors, and i'm not just talking about individuals either) decice what they're going to work on, they either decide it for themselves or they decide to listen to someone else's opinions, but ultimately it's their decision one way or the other | 17:17 |
| cdent | Is it a fair response to say "that's a bit reductionist" (I think it is fair, and I think it fairly reasonable to use as a response to most statements that get made about this kind of stuff) | 17:18 |
| fungi | to take it at its most reductionist then: users don't tell me what to build. i listen to users because i value their input, and i often choose to agree with it, but that's not the same thing | 17:18 |
| fungi | my employer might give me the option of working on some specific thing or finding a job somewhere else, but then that's them (as a contributor) choosing where to spend their resources (my time) | 17:20 |
| * cdent destroys capitalism while getting a cup of coffee | 17:20 | |
| * zaneb gets popcorn | 17:21 | |
| fungi | i like that we as a community come to collective consensus around certain things which we agree need getting done, and then work on those things. we can do that while trying to make it easy for people who aren't involved in that process to get involved, but i really don't see any other sustainable model | 17:22 |
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| fungi | entirely possible this is a blind spot on my part | 17:22 |
| fungi | anyway, back to the original topic, i don't see that the postmeritocracy.org manifesto is in any way counter to how we work as a community | 17:24 |
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| fungi | it seems mostly to be a reaction to the interpretation that (understandably) the term "meritocracy" is being used literally in some communities to mean that people of merit get to make the decisions, with some vacuous notion of what defines "merit" | 17:25 |
| fungi | mostly as an alias for "oligarchy" i guess | 17:26 |
| cdent | And you don't feel like parts of openstack culture are an oligarchy? | 17:26 |
| fungi | i feel like any large group of humans interacting will have a tendency to descend into that | 17:27 |
| fungi | we can fight against that tendency, but i don't think that claims to adopt some other model of group governance do anything to prevent human nature | 17:28 |
| fungi | s/can/shuold/ | 17:28 |
| fungi | i believe that no matter how we claim to approach governance on paper, the tendency of people to want to form cliques with others of like mind will be ever-present | 17:29 |
| persia | My readings suggest that oligarchies form when there is an increase in the barriers to entry to the class able to effect change. When the mechanisms for change are more widely available, bureaucracy is the more common result. | 17:29 |
| fungi | fair, we have a bit of both of those ;) | 17:29 |
| * cdent hopes to figure out useful ways to fight harder | 17:36 | |
| * dims catches up | 17:42 | |
| dhellmann | dims : thanks for the pointer to that rallyx repo | 18:10 |
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| smcginnis | Both projects seem to have various issues of concern. | 18:16 |
| smcginnis | If rally is in the process of moving over to RallyX on GitHub, that at least might make some things easier. | 18:16 |
| fungi | as in, makes certain decisions for us | 18:27 |
| cdent | Based on what i heard before, the openstack parts of rally are going to be extracted to a plugin | 18:29 |
| cdent | whether that plugin will be openstack-hosted or not is unclear | 18:29 |
| smcginnis | fungi: Yep | 18:30 |
| smcginnis | Yeah, this only has a couple text files so far: https://github.com/xrally/xrally-openstack | 18:31 |
| smcginnis | "This repo is not meant for development" | 18:31 |
| diablo_rojo | mnaser, did you get all of your questions answered about storyboard? :) | 18:48 |
| mnaser | diablo_rojo: i believe dhellmann helped go through them :) | 18:51 |
| diablo_rojo | mnaser, awesome! Sorry I wasn't around earlier- been taking it easy since the summit, but I'll be back at it full force Monday if you have more questions. | 18:52 |
| mnaser | diablo_rojo: no problem, summit is a lil exhausting, take care! | 18:52 |
| diablo_rojo | mnaser, ideed :) Thank you! You too. | 18:53 |
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| zaneb | TheJulia: what do you think of this as a starting point for a code review section in the contributors guide? https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/review-the-openstack-way | 20:08 |
| zaneb | (in an etherpad rather than a review as it'll be easier to get a bunch of people to contribute) | 20:10 |
| diablo_rojo | zaneb, we already have something similar started, but it can definitely be added to https://docs.openstack.org/contributors/code-and-documentation/using-gerrit.html#reviewing-changes | 20:11 |
| diablo_rojo | If it grows large enough we can break it out into its own section too | 20:11 |
| zaneb | diablo_rojo: thanks, yeah I saw that and that would be a good place for it | 20:12 |
| zaneb | goal here is to collect all of the wisdom that flows out of our periodic massive openstack-dev thread on this topic and channel it into docs :) | 20:13 |
| zaneb | in a (mostly) non-prescriptive way, of course :) | 20:13 |
| cmurphy | zaneb: i feel like the description of a -1 is a little overzealous - -1 doesn't block something from merging | 20:14 |
| cmurphy | it's an expression of a preference, not a block | 20:15 |
| zaneb | yeah, not technically | 20:15 |
| diablo_rojo | Wanted to make sure you had seen what exists already. It's still pretty new so I generally default to assuming people don't know about it. Glad you have though! | 20:15 |
| zaneb | but I don't know that we'll be able to accomplish the culture shift that TheJulia is asking for without being a little bit zealous | 20:15 |
| smcginnis | I thought the -1 description was a little too strong at first too, but reading on and thinking of this in the perspective of a newer reviewer and trying to get them to understand, I think that might be OK. | 20:18 |
| dhellmann | zaneb : nice | 20:25 |
| cmurphy | I would prefer to word it strongly without being misleading about its technical power, maybe "Use the -1 review to indicate that you have found significant problems with the patch that you strongly believe should be corrected before the patch is merged" | 20:26 |
| zaneb | cmurphy: that sounds better to me, go ahead and make that change :) | 20:27 |
| * zaneb wrote that several hours ago and had already forgotten what the first sentence said | 20:28 | |
| cmurphy | :) | 20:28 |
| cdent | I like cmurphy's description | 20:30 |
| smcginnis | Yep, that works for me too. | 20:34 |
| fungi | sounds great | 20:39 |
| cdent | zaneb, mostly looks good, left a couple of changes (light blue). Other suggestion is that maybe the followup change section should come before the modify existing to indicate structurally which might be more common? | 20:43 |
| zaneb | thanks cdent, those are good suggestions | 20:44 |
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| zaneb | I'll wait until Monday before sending that link out to the list, to give TheJulia a chance to review first | 21:33 |
| * TheJulia reads | 21:34 | |
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| TheJulia | cmurphy: great wording | 21:36 |
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| TheJulia | zaneb: re: line 39-40. Reviewer attempting to redirect your valuable time. That doesn't sit well with me in that we should also indicate that a contributor can open a dialog and make their case. The may then be asked to provide additional context, etc. | 21:49 |
| TheJulia | I think it is really good | 21:56 |
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