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| -openstackstatus- NOTICE: Due to a Zuul outage, patches uploaded to Gerrit between 09:00UTC and 12:50UTC, were not properly added to Zuul. Please recheck any patches during this window and apologies for the inconvenience. | 13:16 | |
| mnaser | I was thinking this morning that related the whole "bringing new contributors" discussion, I feel like we might not be doing a good job 'on-boarding' those new potential small users and contributors | 13:24 |
|---|---|---|
| mnaser | For example, #openstack channel is pretty much quiet all the time, with most people asking questions and never getting a response | 13:24 |
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| mnaser | I *feel* like it may paint a picture of "nobody's home" from OpenStack where as there is huge amounts of activity going in other channels | 13:25 |
| mnaser | wondering what others feel about this | 13:25 |
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| dhellmann | mnaser : I wonder how much of that is selection bias? Are we noticing people asking questions and not having them answered on IRC, but not noticing them asking elsewhere and finding their answer? | 13:27 |
| dhellmann | I also wonder, Is IRC even the right place to be offering support for most users? Are we hurting ourselves by having too many ways to interact with the community? Should we just encourage folks to use ask.o.o? Or something else? | 13:27 |
| dhellmann | it feels like a parallel to the question of how do we more effectively communicate with the contributor community, and I've started to think the answer there is to be consistent in how we use each channel we have and then train people that different things happen in different channels | 13:28 |
| dhellmann | of course if no one is answering user questions anywhere, moving the questions won't help, but I feel like that's not really the situation | 13:29 |
| mnaser | dhellmann: i agree, i do feel like this is something that i've slightly dealt with in other communities where i'll hop onto irc to ask a question or two but sitting in a channel with 700+ users and not a single word doesn't feel encouraging | 13:30 |
| dhellmann | sure. is that channel used for anything else any more? | 13:31 |
| dhellmann | or do we just have a bunch of people who haven't cleaned up their bouncer configs? :-) | 13:31 |
| mnaser | dhellmann: i think it's a lot of idling | 13:32 |
| dhellmann | would it help to set the topic channel to indicate that? | 13:32 |
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| mnaser | "the openstack idling channel" :) | 13:33 |
| * jrollinhatin spins up idlerpg bot and puts it in #openstack | 13:33 | |
| mnaser | but yes, i think the idea of "where do I go" | 13:34 |
| mnaser | it does seem like posting to the openstack ML is the biggest 'chance' of getting a response | 13:35 |
| mnaser | looking at mailing list archives, there seems to be a fair amount of traffic there with responses | 13:36 |
| smcginnis | Maybe we should merge #openstack and #openstack-dev? | 13:36 |
| mugsie | yeah - that might be an idea | 13:37 |
| mugsie | but the biggest issue (that i have seen) is that someone asks a question, and then disco's out of the room 5 mins later | 13:37 |
| mugsie | I have gone to answer questions an hour or so later, they are nearly always gone | 13:38 |
| smcginnis | True, I've seen that happen many times. Quite a few seconds before I hit enter to respond to them. | 13:38 |
| mnaser | yeah, i mean maybe we can add that little note that's in most irc channel of.. 'stick around, might be a minute' | 13:40 |
| mugsie | yeah - for people not used to IRC, asking and waiting is not normal | 13:42 |
| cmurphy | we just went through the process of retiring #openstack-101 and redirecting it to #openstack-dev | 13:44 |
| cmurphy | #openstack has periods of activity sometimes, it's not nearly as sad as #openstack-101 | 13:44 |
| dhellmann | at one point we weren't even sure we wanted to keep #openstack-dev because we have a channel for every team | 13:45 |
| mnaser | yeah, i don't think much development goes on in #openstack-dev overall, you usually reach teams in their respective channels | 13:48 |
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| mugsie | https://twitter.com/xgerman/status/994950821690294272 | 14:55 |
| mugsie | xgerman_ is not wrong - it is something we should start considering | 14:56 |
| cdent | a) aye, b) ugh | 14:57 |
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| cdent | smcginnis: bastard! ("pun intended Chris") | 14:58 |
| smcginnis | Hahahaaaa! | 14:58 |
| smcginnis | I so wondered if you would see that. :D | 14:58 |
| cdent | I considerd not saying anything, but where's the fun in that | 15:01 |
| smcginnis | ;) | 15:01 |
| smcginnis | I considered not putting that there, but couldn't resist. | 15:02 |
| jrollinhatin | brings up a good question, is it our responsibility to make openstack GDPR compliant, or just to provide a toggle to allow the deployer to make that choice | 15:05 |
| mugsie | personally - I say toggle, but it is a good discussion to have. | 15:06 |
| mugsie | e.g. to force compliance, in designate we shouldn't take an email address to put in the SOA record for each zone | 15:07 |
| jrollinhatin | yeah, I'm honestly not sure what my personal opinion is | 15:07 |
| mugsie | but I know people want that in other deployments | 15:07 |
| mugsie | and the problem is going to be waiting for the first court cases to find out what the limits actually are | 15:08 |
| clarkb | mugsie: you'd just have to allow for them to remove the email address right? | 15:08 |
| clarkb | which the api should already do? | 15:08 |
| mugsie | clarkb: it allows for it to be changed - not removed | 15:08 |
| clarkb | sure thats fine aiui | 15:08 |
| clarkb | invalid@foo.com | 15:08 |
| clarkb | done | 15:08 |
| jrollinhatin | right, toggle is probably best for openstack's adoption. also best for companies that don't care about GDPR. my personal freedom hat says no toggle :) | 15:08 |
| mugsie | there are a few DNS providers who are all forcibly changing the emails in SOAs to generics | 15:08 |
| mugsie | to just use the email, we have to gain consent, and spell out the usage, which is not done right now. | 15:10 |
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| clarkb | consent would be explicitly providing it via the api right? or is it pulled from elsewhere? | 15:11 |
| clarkb | and usage would probably fit under the same box you added it to the record explicitly via api that is how its used | 15:11 |
| mugsie | clarkb: at the point of capturing the information we have to explain why it is needed, and where it is used | 15:12 |
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| clarkb | beyond the fact that it is part of that specific record tyep in dns and you are explicitly adding a record for it? | 15:14 |
| mugsie | it is provided as part of the zone create - not the record | 15:14 |
| clarkb | ah | 15:14 |
| clarkb | I guess that is because zone needs an soa | 15:15 |
| clarkb | which may be a bit more abstract that I was initially thinking | 15:15 |
| mugsie | yeah. it does get a bit complicated | 15:18 |
| clarkb | however, you can update that via the api so at least that side of things is covered. You probably just need to explain in api docs "this info goes in the soa record for the new zone" and are done | 15:20 |
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| dhellmann | these feel like questions for the openstack-legal mailing list | 15:28 |
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| smcginnis | Not really a TC thing, but I noticed some of the corporate sponsors listed here don't exist anymore: https://www.openstack.org/foundation/companies/ | 16:23 |
| clarkb | smcginnis: https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-org is the bug tracker for that site | 16:24 |
| clarkb | probably best place to report stuff like that | 16:24 |
| smcginnis | clarkb: Cool, I'll note that there if I don't see anything already addressing it. | 16:24 |
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| mnaser | TIL GCP is a corporate sponsor | 17:06 |
| smcginnis | mnaser: There was some big press announcement when that happened. A while ago now though. | 17:07 |
| smcginnis | mnaser: https://www.infoworld.com/article/2948901/openstack/4-reasons-google-joined-openstack.html | 17:08 |
| smcginnis | I never really saw much happen other than they paid a contractor to write a Cinder backup driver to backup volumes to Google cloud storage. | 17:08 |
| mnaser | https://cloud.google.com/docs/compare/openstack/ interesting comparison document | 17:09 |
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| clarkb | mnaser: it actually seems like a reasonable comparison. There are a couple issues with some factual data but overall seems to be pretty good. (For example you can do live migration with non shared ephemeral disks, in fact we test it in the gate iirc) | 17:20 |
| mnaser | clarkb: yeah and it seems to be skip a few services (ex: google cloud dns but no mention of designate), databases with no mention of trove/sahara | 17:21 |
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| cdent | I wonder, I'd really like the TC, or some delegation thereof, to be more like what Kevin describes in his recent response on zaneb's thread | 19:13 |
| smcginnis | Constellations are just a documentation construct, but I wonder if they will end up being useful for identifying missing needs. | 19:19 |
| smcginnis | As in, if someone comes in with a need that can't be matched up with an existing constellation, could that lead to the formation of a new constellation and knowing which pieces are missing to form it. | 19:20 |
| smcginnis | cdent: Are you referring to the three bullet items? | 19:23 |
| zaneb | cdent, kfox1111: yeah, I have been saying for a while (like, at least 4 years) that one of our problems is that nobody is designing OpenStack at a high level (that is, a level above that of individual projects) | 19:23 |
| cdent | zaneb: ditto | 19:24 |
| zaneb | I had hopes that maybe the architecture working group would turn out to be that | 19:24 |
| cdent | smcginnis: pretty much | 19:24 |
| smcginnis | 1 I think is the foundation and the vendors that are trying to sell OpenStack as a solution to their users. | 19:24 |
| zaneb | but then they seemed more focused on inside-baseball stuff (which is also important, but slightly different), and even then couldn't find people to work on it | 19:24 |
| smcginnis | I think we need 3, but to a degree that is what we do. But without authority to tell contributors what to do, that's hard to direct a volunteer workforce to follow. | 19:25 |
| cdent | I arch wg was unable to overcome project silo intertia | 19:25 |
| cdent | s/I/The/ | 19:27 |
| zaneb | smcginnis: I'm pretty skeptical of the idea that the only kind of leadership is the kind that involves the authority to tell people what to do | 19:31 |
| cdent | I think what need is not more authority, but more explicitness about direction. I've asserted many times that there's not enough gravity. that is, we as a community do not produce enough what amounts to religion to believe in. | 19:36 |
| cdent | third party authority | 19:37 |
| smcginnis | zaneb: Maybe authority is not the right word for it. | 19:37 |
| smcginnis | zaneb: But we've been telling Foundation member companies that we need resources working on some of these commons, but don't get much visible action on that. | 19:38 |
| smcginnis | Maybe that's a discussion we should have - how to get things done without direct authority to tell people to do it. | 19:39 |
| zaneb | that's a problem, and it would be nice to have more people | 19:43 |
| zaneb | but explaining to (& listening to!) the people we have now how their work fits in as part of a greater whole is free | 19:44 |
| cdent | there does need to be a lot more of that | 19:49 |
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| openstackgerrit | Zane Bitter proposed openstack/governance master: Clarify new project requirements for affiliation diversity https://review.openstack.org/567944 | 20:49 |
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| dhellmann | I think some of the frustration that I have with talking about this topic is that folks are focused on adding a layer of formality around a practice that ultimately comes down to an individual or small group picking an important topic, mustering support in a sufficient portion of the community, and then driving the work to completion. | 23:42 |
| dhellmann | It's a bit like the recent discussion with lbragstad about how to deal with the standardization of RBAC roles. We don't need a global specs review process. We need people who understand the issue to explain it to the rest of us and convince us they have a plan (or build one together with us) and then we need to do it. | 23:43 |
| dhellmann | Maybe that over-simplifies things, or I'm missing something about what is actually being proposed, though. | 23:43 |
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