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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Create tripleo-ha-utils project https://review.openstack.org/555830 | 08:01 |
|---|---|---|
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Add puppet-senlin to Puppet OpenStack https://review.openstack.org/559539 | 08:01 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Add puppet-pacemaker to Tripleo https://review.openstack.org/559664 | 08:01 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Update docs job info to match current PTI https://review.openstack.org/556576 | 08:04 |
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| cmurphy | o/ | 09:01 |
| ttx | o? | 09:04 |
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| ttx | Looks like we have 9 candidates for 7 positions now | 09:04 |
| cmurphy | \o/ | 09:05 |
| cdent | mornin' | 09:05 |
| ttx | so we'll definitely have an election | 09:05 |
| ttx | All good candidates too! Already hard for me to pick | 09:05 |
| cmurphy | me too :'( | 09:06 |
| ttx | In other news, there is a question for us on the Adjutant review, regarding Python3-only projects | 09:06 |
| ttx | I think we said that is alright, but wanted to doublecheck | 09:06 |
| ttx | See https://review.openstack.org/553643 | 09:07 |
| cdent | Yeah, I was going to bring that up. If it's not alright previously, we should make it alright | 09:07 |
| cmurphy | seems like it's time | 09:07 |
| ttx | I think it was part of dhellmann-s timeline | 09:07 |
| ttx | IIRC it included a "Python3-only projects are OK from that date on" | 09:08 |
| ttx | so probably better to let him answer that question | 09:08 |
| cmurphy | adrian sent an email to -dev about it as well | 09:08 |
| ttx | Ah, nice | 09:09 |
| ttx | cdent: We said we'd poll the -dev list for topics we should bring to the board+TC meeting. What would be the ideal timeline to do that ? I planned to send something today but maybe waiting for the election to conclude would be better ? Or too late ? | 09:12 |
| cdent | I'd say start soon and repeat later? | 09:12 |
| ttx | OK. I can start a thread today and let the new chair pick it up after election early May | 09:13 |
| cdent | I'm not going to be able to make the board meeting, which is very disappointing (to me). I can't get flights to work with a wedding I need to attend the day prior. Very difficult to get late evening departures out of heathrow :( | 09:14 |
| ttx | ah, sad | 09:14 |
| ttx | private jet it is then | 09:15 |
| * cdent checks the bank | 09:15 | |
| cdent | not yet | 09:15 |
| ttx | Maybe you can get Mark Shuttleworth to pick you up on the way | 09:15 |
| * cdent checks his rolodex | 09:16 | |
| cdent | not yet | 09:16 |
| ttx | Now we'll see if he monitors this channel | 09:17 |
| ttx | ok, email sent | 09:24 |
| ttx | yet another thing that will be facilitated by moving election further away from summit | 09:25 |
| andreaf | hello TC members :) | 09:35 |
| andreaf | I've got a short talk (20min) accepted at FOSS Backstage in Berlin in June about OpenStack Four Opens https://foss-backstage.de/session/openstack-and-four-opens | 09:36 |
| andreaf | I plan to talk about how OpenStack implemented the 4 opens practically with a mix of governance structures and technical solutions (e.g. IRC logs) | 09:37 |
| andreaf | if anyone has a topic that they feel should be represented in that talk please ping me, I'll do my best to include it | 09:37 |
| cmurphy | awesome andreaf ! | 09:43 |
| cdent | andreaf: nice! | 09:43 |
| cdent | andreaf: in that context I would think one of the most interesting things would be discussing some of the costs and benefits of the choices | 09:47 |
| cdent | for example in goverance we have very limited executive power across the entire world of openstack | 09:47 |
| cdent | that's good almost all the time, unless we want to make a serious course correction | 09:49 |
| ttx | I would mention two things that might be considered undesirable side-effects of following the 4 opens | 09:50 |
| ttx | One is scope creep -- if you're truly open it's hard to say no to features | 09:50 |
| ttx | The other is that you have to accept to go slower | 09:50 |
| ttx | (like a dedicated start-up will go faster, but the open collaboration will go farther | 09:51 |
| ttx | andreaf: I'm actually giving a full talk on that at PyCon IT Saturday | 09:52 |
| ttx | You should join us ! | 09:52 |
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| cdent | From email (evrardjp) just now: "Our current way of working is not sustainable in the long run, as a lot of work (and therefore pressure) is concentrated on a few individuals." This is so true, across the board. We need to be actively working on this. | 11:18 |
| fungi | i thought we already accepted a python3-only project a while back. now if i could only remember which one | 11:37 |
| cdent | I recall a conversation from smcginnis about such things | 11:38 |
| andreaf | cdent ttx cmurphy thanks for the feedback! | 11:45 |
| andreaf | ttx unfortunately I won't be at pycon it this time :( | 11:46 |
| andreaf | best of luck for your talk! | 11:46 |
| mugsie | for the py3 only projects we should update https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/pti/python.html | 11:56 |
| openstackgerrit | Graham Hayes proposed openstack/governance master: Allow projects to drop py27 support in the PTI https://review.openstack.org/561922 | 12:12 |
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| evrardjp | cdent: I didn't expect this mail to be read! :p | 13:07 |
| cdent | evrardjp: a) with a subject like that, how could I resist? b) I like to maintain the illusion (it is definitely an illusion) that I read everything | 13:08 |
| evrardjp | cdent: :) | 13:08 |
| mugsie | evrardjp: you will always find yourself surprised at what people read :) | 13:09 |
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| dhellmann | my suggested "timeline" for python-3-only was that we could start allowing that after it was reasonable for deployers to actually deploy on python 3 on the platforms we claim to support (Ubuntu and CentOS) | 13:38 |
| dhellmann | IIRC, the project where this came up in the past was able to make a rather small adjustment to their code and get it to work with py27 as well | 13:39 |
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| dims | w00t @zaneb | 13:52 |
| fungi | dhellmann: yeah, i couldn't figure out which one that was from digging back through past discussions | 13:54 |
| fungi | and as far as "python 3 on the platforms we claim to support" it's been possible with ubuntu for a while but centos doesn't yet have a system python3 so depending on how we define that... | 13:55 |
| fungi | does python3 from software collections count? or from unofficial rpms? or locally-compiled? | 13:55 |
| mugsie | I would say py3 from software collections counts | 13:56 |
| fungi | rumors are rhel8/centos8 may have python3 without needing software collections | 13:56 |
| mugsie | fungi: not rumours - it will | 13:56 |
| fungi | apparently deploying services to use software collections is far from straightforward because they're like little chroots and don't make the interpreter available system-wide | 13:57 |
| mugsie | there was a note in the RHEL 7.5 release notes | 13:57 |
| fungi | oh, nice | 13:57 |
| mugsie | and while it didn't say no py27, that was implied, and I have heard py27 won't be there from others | 13:58 |
| fungi | in the past there had been suggestions that red hat would refuse to support more than one python interpreter on the system, implying that rhel8 would have _either_ python2 or python3 but not both | 13:58 |
| fungi | so, right, that may make testing on centos interesting once we sunset centos 7 | 13:58 |
| mugsie | https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-us/red_hat_enterprise_linux/7/html/7.5_release_notes/chap-red_hat_enterprise_linux-7.5_release_notes-deprecated_functionality | 13:59 |
| fungi | that does seem to confirm it, thanks | 14:00 |
| mugsie | np | 14:00 |
| mugsie | I did not realise that software collections were implmented as docker containers - that does complicate things | 14:01 |
| mugsie | that does complicate things | 14:02 |
| mugsie | fungi: would https://ius.io/ be acceptable? | 14:07 |
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| pabelanger | software collections is also missing a lot of python libraries, as I understand it, it really is geared towards django apps | 14:12 |
| mugsie | I seem to remember tripleO / RDO / someone had a solution for python3 only CentOS, but I can't remember where I saw it | 14:19 |
| pabelanger | mugsie: last I heard is to test on fedora-28 for tripleo / rdo | 14:20 |
| pabelanger | EmilienM: ^ | 14:20 |
| EmilienM | pabelanger: in tripleo meeting | 14:20 |
| dhellmann | mugsie, fungi : I'm still working with the RH team to figure out the approach to python 3, but the current platform does *not* support deploying on py3 and I think it would be a mistake to push to drop 2 until we have one that does. | 14:20 |
| EmilienM | mugsie: on openstack-dev | 14:21 |
| EmilienM | mugsie: the idea is to build containers on fedora (that provides python3) and run them on centos7 (our testing platform for upstream) | 14:21 |
| fungi | mugsie: it's hard for me to say whether https://ius.io/ is a suitable alternative given that i'm not really an openstack operator nor a user of rpm-based platforms, so i'd defer to the judgement of people who are | 14:21 |
| dhellmann | I think we're talking about 1-2 cycles before we can drop support for 2 | 14:21 |
| dhellmann | that's after rocky, so T | 14:21 |
| dhellmann | at the earliest | 14:22 |
| fungi | we may also need to expect that the last openstack coordinated release to support python 2.7 across the board may see a lot more stable maintenance interest for longer | 14:22 |
| dhellmann | yes, I expect so | 14:22 |
| mugsie | dhellmann: cool - I will link this backlog to the o/goverance patch | 14:23 |
| jroll | perhaps the guidance for new projects should be something about "it's okay to be py3 only, but note that adoption may be slow due to red hat things bla bla bla" | 14:23 |
| dhellmann | mugsie : that's a definite "at the earliest" and not a commitment that it will be T :-) | 14:23 |
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| jroll | (and existing projects should wait for a go-ahead) | 14:24 |
| mugsie | maybe having a "T" deadline might encourage distros :P | 14:24 |
| mugsie | and some projects | 14:24 |
| dhellmann | jroll : that approach may work. I'm not likely to vote in favor of any projects that don't support the platforms we actually deploy to, but if teams want to wait to become official I wouldn't object to that. | 14:24 |
| jroll | dhellmann: okay, that's different, then :) | 14:24 |
| dhellmann | I mean, I've written python-3-only projects myself lately (downpour) so I get the appeal | 14:24 |
| dhellmann | but we do have to remember that "openstack is written for our users" | 14:25 |
| dhellmann | and a lot of our users do not have a platform for python 3, yet | 14:25 |
| dhellmann | it's coming | 14:25 |
| dhellmann | very soon | 14:25 |
| jroll | right, but if a project applies to be official knowing it's likely to have a few cycles before they really gain adoption anyway, they might not mind so much | 14:25 |
| dhellmann | I am not allowed to make more specific statement than what we've said publicly in the 7.5 release notes | 14:25 |
| mugsie | what is the RHEL 8 date? because we will have the opposite problem when that lands | 14:25 |
| EmilienM | there is no date | 14:25 |
| EmilienM | AFIK | 14:25 |
| dhellmann | we don't have a date yet | 14:26 |
| dhellmann | believe me, we are pushing the RHEL team hard to get one | 14:26 |
| dhellmann | this is a huge issue for us, and we're all aware internally, and we're working through it | 14:26 |
| dhellmann | mugsie: the mitigation for the hard-switch is to have py2 and py3 support at the same time | 14:26 |
| mugsie | OK - we will have issues then if we have to block current projects who are py27 only now | 14:26 |
| dhellmann | that's why, although for 4 years I've been urging us to move to 3, now I'm urging us to slow down a bit | 14:27 |
| dhellmann | yes, as far as I know we only have 1 project that hasn't successfully finished setting up integration jobs | 14:27 |
| dhellmann | we have quite a few functional test jobs that we need to replicate or move to python 3 | 14:27 |
| dhellmann | see https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Python3#Python_3_Status_of_OpenStack_projects for (fairly recent) details | 14:28 |
| mugsie | OK, things in some projects are better than I remebered | 14:30 |
| dhellmann | yes, a bunch of teams made progress when we weren't monitoring it closely | 14:31 |
| cdent | I think we need to be ahead of the curve, especially since most users are steps behind our release cycle. So allowing projects to be python 3 _now_ does not mean (all) users are required to python 3 _now_. It means we will be ready for them _then_. | 14:32 |
| cdent | And unless we start now nobody will be ready. | 14:32 |
| dhellmann | the work we're doing in oslo now will form the basis of a goal proposal for next cycle to move everyone else over, but I need to understand what changes have to happen before I can propose that | 14:32 |
| dhellmann | cdent : it doesn't cost us much more to have 2 and 3 support simultaneously, and we already require support for 3. | 14:33 |
| cdent | dhellmann: sure, but it sounds like some projects would like to use some tools that they can't use because of that python2 requirement | 14:33 |
| cdent | As people said above: adoption may be stymied for a new project that wants to use python3 only stuff, but that's a risk they can accept, perhaps? | 14:34 |
| dhellmann | So we'll have different rules for new projects vs. existing projects? | 14:35 |
| dhellmann | because I don't think we want to say let glance drop support for python 2 | 14:35 |
| dhellmann | or oslo | 14:36 |
| smcginnis | I'm a little less concerned about sytem packaged python with the trend I've seen of operators moving to containerized deployments. | 14:36 |
| cdent | I'm not certain, just thinking out loud. But generally, I think it ought to be perfectly okay for us to go all python3, on master, today. Any anybody who wants to use old stuff just can. They always have that option. | 14:36 |
| smcginnis | I wouldn't want oslo to drop support, as that would have follow on effects of forcing others. | 14:36 |
| smcginnis | But "end" projects like services, I wouldn't mind seeing them drop py2. | 14:37 |
| dhellmann | cdent : that ignores new users, and the significant portion of our contributor base who works for a platform that isn't quite ready for that move | 14:37 |
| smcginnis | New users also have some leeway in choosing which platform to deploy these greenfield deployments on though too, right? | 14:38 |
| cdent | dhellmann: how does it ignore new users? | 14:38 |
| dhellmann | seriously, I'm not talking about waiting for years. and I hate that I'm saying we need to wait at all. but that's the reality I see | 14:38 |
| dhellmann | cdent : it would force them to use something old, no? | 14:38 |
| cdent | New users are welcome to choose whatever platform they want | 14:38 |
| dhellmann | of course | 14:39 |
| cdent | so how are we forcing anything? | 14:39 |
| dhellmann | well, they could either have a platform of their choice or a tool of their choice, but not both | 14:39 |
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| * dims catches up | 16:14 | |
| dims | smcginnis dhellmann : for oslo, is there a proposal on the table? | 16:16 |
| * dims checks his py3/nova scars ... | 16:17 | |
| dhellmann | dims : not that I'm aware of | 16:17 |
| smcginnis | None I've heard. | 16:17 |
| dhellmann | I was using that as an example of why we need to keep the rules the same for all projects until we can safely drop support for 2 | 16:17 |
| dims | k so business as usual for now | 16:17 |
| dhellmann | yeah, although we need to continue to monitor it | 16:18 |
| dims | ack. i like the idea of the services dropping py2 first and work backwards | 16:18 |
| dims | could be "leaf" projects like magnum that use everything that get the ball rolling | 16:19 |
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| dims | harlowja : making it to vancouver? | 16:42 |
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| harlowja | deciding; gotta update my passport (noticed that this weekend) | 16:42 |
| harlowja | though canada is like the US; imho shouldn't need passport :-P | 16:43 |
| dims | sssshhhhh! don't say that out loud | 16:44 |
| clarkb | harlowja: you don't if you have one of those fancy drivers licenses and drive | 16:44 |
| harlowja | hmmmmm | 16:44 |
| harlowja | tempting | 16:44 |
| clarkb | oh looks like its only NEXUS card and passport cards now | 16:46 |
| harlowja | :( | 16:46 |
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| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: add some process instructions for updating dependencies https://review.openstack.org/562006 | 17:03 |
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| fungi | yeah, they dropped the drivers license thing for canada and mexico a while back | 17:43 |
| fungi | in happier news, a ran across this collection of articles which had some good nuggets of free/libre open source governance experience https://changeset.nyc/resources.html | 17:45 |
| fungi | er, i ran across | 17:45 |
| fungi | a tech writer for wmf, and so unsurprisingly adept at getting points across in writing | 17:59 |
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| dhellmann | fungi : that looks really interesting; I've added a bunch of them to my reading queue | 18:42 |
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| * persia thought the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative allowed new "enhanced" drivers licenses to be used as acceptable proof of citizenship and identity to travel between any of the three north american states, with the necessary access controls being available to Canadian Border Patrol Officers since December 2017 | 18:54 | |
| clarkb | persia: ah maybe the thing I found is out of date if december was when this changed again | 18:55 |
| persia | clarkb: Between 2008 and 2017, US EDL couldn't be accepted for entry to Canada because the canadian officers didn't have access to the database to confirm the cards were valid (but Mexican EDL was accepted). | 18:56 |
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| persia | On the other hand, deciding to issue EDL is a local thing: Quebec stopped issuing them in 2014, as one example. | 18:57 |
| clarkb | we are going in the opposite direction due to tsa demands aiui | 18:57 |
| clarkb | (so states that refused to offer them are now sorting out how to do it so that you don't need a passport to travel domestically) | 18:57 |
| persia | Don't confuse "REAL ID" and "EDL": one can comply witht he former without complying with the latter. | 18:58 |
| clarkb | I thought real id was a subset? | 18:58 |
| clarkb | you ahve to do one to do the other | 18:59 |
| persia | My understanding is that all US EDLs are "REAL ID" compliant, but not all documents that are "REAL ID" compliant are sufficient for travel uneder WHTI. On the other hand, if one *can* qualify for "REAL ID", then one can likely qualify for an APEC travel card, which gives priority entry to all north american countries. | 19:00 |
| persia | I may not have a complete understanding of these things. | 19:00 |
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| dims | fungi : cool (links!) | 19:34 |
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