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| openstackgerrit | Jeremy Stanley proposed openstack/governance master: Update Rocky PTLs https://review.openstack.org/544753 | 01:12 |
|---|---|---|
| fungi | diablo_rojo: persia: ^ | 01:13 |
| diablo_rojo | Done :) | 01:17 |
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| ttx | office hour? | 15:02 |
| cmurphy | o/ | 15:02 |
| cdent | tc-members | 15:02 |
| EmilienM | hellow | 15:02 |
| * cdent was distracted by giving mordred a sec | 15:02 | |
| ttx | Didn't have much, about to leave for a week vacation snowboarding in the French Alps | 15:02 |
| cdent | Bit early for you EmilienM ? | 15:02 |
| EmilienM | 7am? lol | 15:03 |
| EmilienM | I almost did half of my working day :D | 15:03 |
| cmurphy | ttx: your life sounds awful | 15:03 |
| ttx | smcginnis, pabelanger: you're on point to fill the "Rocky" section of the Monday PTG presentation, i won't be much around to send reminders | 15:03 |
| smcginnis | ttx: Yep, got it. | 15:04 |
| ttx | cmurphy: I'll send pictures. | 15:04 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 15:04 |
| smcginnis | pabelanger: We should discuss at some point. I have the presentation up and was planning on adding a few bullets at some point. | 15:04 |
| ttx | A couple more +1s on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/544753/ and I'll approve it tomorrow | 15:05 |
| cdent | is every tc member going to be at the ptg? | 15:05 |
| ttx | (Rocky PTLs) | 15:05 |
| ttx | (before I leave) | 15:06 |
| ttx | cdent: good question, I think so | 15:07 |
| smcginnis | cdent: I will be there. | 15:07 |
| fungi | as will i | 15:07 |
| dhellmann | I will be | 15:07 |
| ttx | dims, johnthetubaguy : you'll be there ? | 15:07 |
| cmurphy | ptg roll call | 15:07 |
| ttx | all the others I think I alerady saw on the list | 15:07 |
| dims | ttx : yep. will be there | 15:08 |
| cdent | I added this topic to https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/PTG-Dublin-TC-topics as well, but I was recently asked internal to my employer what being a "base service" really means in terms of usefulness/usability? The particular concern is with etcd, which only have partial support in tooz for group coordination | 15:08 |
| cdent | s/have/has/ | 15:08 |
| johnthetubaguy | I should be at the ptg, I am registered, etc | 15:08 |
| dhellmann | cdent : the idea is that if an openstack project wants to rely on one of those services being present to implement a feature, that's OK. | 15:09 |
| ttx | yes "can assume to be present in an openstack cloud" | 15:09 |
| ttx | since there is a bit of chicken and egg there | 15:10 |
| cdent | dhellmann, ttx: yeah, so in this case is it "simply" a matter that tooz hasn't caught up? | 15:10 |
| dhellmann | it's not clear whether we need tooz to have full support in some way, since it's supposed to be an abstraction layer around similar services, right? | 15:10 |
| cdent | dhellmann: the missing functionality is (need to look for link) ... | 15:10 |
| dhellmann | I think once we added etcd to that base layer list, we expect projects to be able to talk to it directly | 15:11 |
| dhellmann | using it's client | 15:11 |
| dhellmann | instead of a wrapper | 15:11 |
| cdent | https://docs.openstack.org/tooz/latest/user/compatibility.html#grouping | 15:11 |
| cdent | Is that last bit true. I thought we had declared tooz to be the way to go? | 15:12 |
| dhellmann | I don't remember | 15:12 |
| smcginnis | My understanding is the same as dhellmann. Until we accepted it as a base service, tooz was just a possible abstraction to it. Now code can assume and use etcd directly. | 15:12 |
| dhellmann | if tooz provides integration with oslo.config, it makes sense to use it | 15:12 |
| mugsie | etcd + eventlet are not friends unfortunately | 15:12 |
| smcginnis | dims: Weren't you the one that drove the etcd acceptance? | 15:12 |
| mugsie | so for our usage of tooz, we can't use etcd | 15:12 |
| dims | smcginnis : yep | 15:13 |
| dhellmann | so anyone who wants to use tooz with a feature of etcd not yet supported in tooz could work on those patches | 15:13 |
| mugsie | dhellmann: etcd3 interface + eventlet just don't work together, eventlet will hang forever if you try to connect | 15:14 |
| smcginnis | dims: Was that the reason for etcdgw? ^ | 15:14 |
| dhellmann | yet another reason to get rid of eventlet | 15:14 |
| dims | mugsie : i am maintaining this layer - https://github.com/dims/etcd3-gateway | 15:14 |
| mugsie | dims: that didn't do grouping did it? I thought the gateway couldn't do the active push required for member join / leave notifications | 15:15 |
| dims | mugsie : if we need it, we should be able to add it | 15:15 |
| * fungi wonders exactly how many reasons we need for getting rid of eventlet before a sufficient force force of developers and reviewers appears to actually make it happen | 15:16 | |
| mugsie | fungi: I would *love* to remove it | 15:16 |
| cdent | mugsie: I'm drawing at brief memories, but yeah, what smcginnis said | 15:16 |
| smcginnis | Last minute rocky goal? Get rid of eventlet? :D | 15:17 |
| mugsie | it is just so ingrained at this point, I think it would take multiple cycles | 15:17 |
| cdent | (sorry that message started before the phone rang and I hit return after getting off the phone, so it's a bit out of sync) | 15:17 |
| * smcginnis could just imagine the pushback on that proposal. | 15:17 | |
| dims | LOLOL, need a magic wand | 15:17 |
| fungi | heh | 15:17 |
| mugsie | smcginnis: lets go :D | 15:17 |
| smcginnis | ;) | 15:17 |
| cdent | I think would should at least make sure that new things don't put it in | 15:17 |
| cdent | but so many services copy from the existing services that it happens anyway | 15:18 |
| pabelanger | smcginnis: ttx: ++ | 15:18 |
| mugsie | cdent: ++ | 15:18 |
| pabelanger | smcginnis: yah, same. I think each adding a few points first, then syncing to review is a good first step | 15:18 |
| mugsie | but oslo.service uses it as a base unfortunately so people starting with that will just have it | 15:18 |
| smcginnis | pabelanger: ++ sounds like a good plan to me | 15:18 |
| * fungi just now looked at http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/tatu/tree/requirements.txt#n25 | 15:18 | |
| fungi | off to a bad start there i guess | 15:18 |
| fungi | brand new project which is likely to try for official status during rocky | 15:19 |
| smcginnis | I've heard "eventlet is bad" for quite a while now, but I don't think I've seen a better recommendation. | 15:19 |
| smcginnis | Is there one? | 15:19 |
| dhellmann | they're using falcon, pyramid, and paste? | 15:19 |
| fungi | dhellmann: it looks like a cargo-cult list of deps to me | 15:20 |
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| fungi | like, they have eventlet in the requirements list but don't actually seem to import it anywhere | 15:20 |
| * dhellmann wonders what "vine" is | 15:20 | |
| jroll | dare I say twisted? | 15:20 |
| jroll | for smcginnis, that is | 15:21 |
| fungi | jroll: you, sir, are twisted indeed | 15:21 |
| jroll | :D | 15:21 |
| cdent | smcginnis: if you're running an api service, just don't; let the wsgi container run many threads. How many services are eventletting that actually need internal-to-the-process psuedo concurrency? | 15:21 |
| mugsie | or a ton of real threads and let the kernal worry about it? | 15:21 |
| cdent | py3 asyncio? | 15:21 |
| jroll | https://docs.python.org/3/library/asyncio.html | 15:21 |
| jroll | yes, this | 15:21 |
| smcginnis | Hmm, I only have had a brief encounter with twisted, and can't really say I enjoyed it. | 15:21 |
| dhellmann | I would personally choose something that doesn't literally mess with the C execution stack at runtime | 15:21 |
| ttx | smcginnis: i think we'd go full asyncio if we changed | 15:22 |
| jroll | dhellmann: ++ | 15:22 |
| ttx | if only because its in stdlib | 15:22 |
| smcginnis | So all the more reason to push for dropping py2 support. | 15:22 |
| jroll | there's a library that attempts to backport asyncio to py2, AIUI, though I'm not sure how good of a job it does | 15:23 |
| cdent | how much async of any kind do we actually need? | 15:23 |
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| dhellmann | jroll : I don't think haypo is supporting trollius any more | 15:23 |
| jroll | ah, interesting, thanks | 15:24 |
| dhellmann | cdent : I could see it being useful in a few places where we're dealing with lots of data. It's less clearly useful for regular API calls, but I think another argument for adding it in the past was also the RPC layer. | 15:24 |
| mugsie | dhellmann: is it useful enough to offset the complexity it adds? | 15:25 |
| cdent | dhellmann: right, but doing things over RPC is another services inherit from nova without critically thinking about it | 15:25 |
| dhellmann | mugsie : I'm not advocating it, just trying to remember the arguments from the past | 15:25 |
| cdent | s/another/another thing/ | 15:25 |
| dhellmann | cdent : yes, true | 15:26 |
| smcginnis | Majority of usage I see in Cinder is just for sleep calls since IIRC time.sleep() has issues with the way we run. (?) | 15:26 |
| jroll | the async model is useful for projects that spend lots of time waiting for hardware to do a thing (ironic, cinder, neutron, others?) | 15:26 |
| smcginnis | Most interesting usage in Cinder is with the backup drivers. Lot's of waiting on IO. | 15:27 |
| dhellmann | jroll : regular threads will block on I/O too, right? | 15:27 |
| jroll | dhellmann: sure, threads are one implementation of the async model | 15:29 |
| dhellmann | back to cdent's original question, did we answer it? | 15:29 |
| cdent | dhellmann: :) yes, thank you. And I actually think we moved on to a pretty good tangent. | 15:31 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I'd be interested to see what a new project would/could do with asyncio | 15:33 |
| cdent | I've added a bullet on https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/PTG-Dublin-TC-topics | 15:33 |
| cdent | as: why not? | 15:33 |
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| openstackgerrit | Paul Belanger proposed openstack/governance master: Add naming poll info for S release https://review.openstack.org/545010 | 15:34 |
| pabelanger | ttx: ^if we have some time to discuss today too | 15:35 |
| dhellmann | I think it's possible to run without eventlet. silhet and jd__ did some work in oslo.messaging a while back to support that. | 15:35 |
| dhellmann | so a service that expects it still needs it, but if the service isn't actually using eventlet it's possible to not use it and still use the lower layers. | 15:35 |
| pabelanger | it is possible dates might be too aggressive | 15:35 |
| ttx | checking | 15:36 |
| ttx | pabelanger: no, sounds good to me. We can play the naming game all PTG week | 15:37 |
| pabelanger | cool | 15:37 |
| ttx | Idem, if we can pile up approvals on this one I can approve it in time for you to start the process on the date indicated :) | 15:38 |
| pabelanger | yah, I'll start work on wiki pages today | 15:42 |
| * dhellmann puts in an early vote for schnitzel | 15:43 | |
| smcginnis | ++ | 15:44 |
| ttx | schadenfreude is too long | 15:44 |
| fungi | and not really a place | 15:45 |
| smcginnis | Some might see that as too close to home. | 15:45 |
| fungi | d'oh! touché | 15:45 |
| ttx | well schnitzel is not really German | 15:46 |
| ttx | spätzle, on the other hand... | 15:46 |
| fungi | i was just about to suggest that ;) | 15:46 |
| fungi | (also very tasty!) | 15:46 |
| ttx | spandau is a Berlin district. | 15:47 |
| cdent | smcginnis++ | 15:47 |
| fungi | spandau ballet was a briefly popular synth band in the '80s too | 15:47 |
| mtreinish | fungi: hah, I was just thinking of making a spandau ballet joke | 15:48 |
| ttx | Speyer is one of the rare city names that fit under 10 characters | 15:48 |
| smcginnis | Me too. | 15:48 |
| smcginnis | Siebentausendzweihundertvierundfünfzig | 15:50 |
| fungi | yeah, deutsche is not known for brevity of its words | 15:51 |
| persia | "7254" is perfectly valid german, and considerably more concise | 15:51 |
| fungi | but doesn't 7 start with "z"? | 15:52 |
| persia | fungi: Unless I am out of practice, it is pronounced as smcginnis wrote. | 15:52 |
| fungi | yep, you're right. i mixed up pronunciation with spelling there | 15:52 |
| pabelanger | Based on previous nomination windows, if we started 2018-02-21, that will stay open until 2018-04-01 23:59. Are we good with that closing the thursday of PTG? | 15:52 |
| pabelanger | err, 2018-03-01 | 15:53 |
| ttx | nah, I would wait the week after | 15:53 |
| fungi | persia: i was thinking of 2 which starts with "z" (10 does too i suppose) | 15:54 |
| pabelanger | ttx: keep open day, and move close until 2018-03-07? that is 2 weeks to poll nominations, but we'd need to push back poll open to give time for foundation to review selection | 15:55 |
| dhellmann | I thought they only reviewed the selected items? | 15:57 |
| dhellmann | oh, you're talking about building the list, not voting, nevermind | 15:57 |
| pabelanger | yah, election officials need some time to finalize, then there is a week period before we open to voting | 15:58 |
| fungi | yeah, community proposes options, tc weeds out poor choices and presents a curated set, community votes on curated set ranking preferences, foundation arketing and legal step through the preferred winners in sequence until they reach one which doesn't have to be stricken from the list | 15:58 |
| pabelanger | so, if we want to adjust the start time for nominations, they usually last a week. Which could be during PTG, or we can keep the nomination window open a little longer? I don't see any wording that is needs to be a week | 15:59 |
| fungi | mainly because asking the foundation to weed out all contentious options is a wasteful cost of their time | 15:59 |
| dhellmann | pabelanger : do you have a pre-seeded set of names to start things off? or are we relying on people to add things to the list? | 16:00 |
| pabelanger | dhellmann: Good question, I need to see if mordred preseeding things him self, or depended on community 100% | 16:00 |
| fungi | good point. in the past having at least a few clear examples to start off the suggestion process helps tremendously | 16:00 |
| fungi | to set the tone | 16:00 |
| pabelanger | but agree, and example would be nice to have | 16:01 |
| dhellmann | maybe one or two of the obvious cities or landmarks | 16:01 |
| fungi | yeah, otherwise the first entry in the list will likely be "snoopy" | 16:02 |
| dhellmann | he did fly in WWI, right? | 16:03 |
| fungi | yeah, and his creator charles schultz has a german last name | 16:03 |
| fungi | so... win? | 16:03 |
| dhellmann | 2 points at least | 16:03 |
| persia | http://www.mygermancity.com/german-cities-s might be a good place to start from for seeding | 16:04 |
| fungi | agreed. a sensible set | 16:04 |
| fungi | i like salzburg | 16:05 |
| persia | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mountain_and_hill_ranges_in_Germany and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lakes_of_Germany may also be useful | 16:05 |
| fungi | i don't suppose we can have a release name with an umlaut | 16:06 |
| pabelanger | I'm going to push up an update for 545010 that will open voting 1 week later, to give some time for people to return from travels of PTG. That still gives us a window of 1 week after selection of names | 16:06 |
| mordred | pabelanger: I always just let the community do it | 16:06 |
| fungi | three cheers for openstack sülm! | 16:06 |
| mordred | pabelanger: but also, if you want to pre-seed, you are part of the community, so that's totally valid! :) | 16:06 |
| openstackgerrit | Paul Belanger proposed openstack/governance master: Add naming poll info for S release https://review.openstack.org/545010 | 16:07 |
| fungi | one option for pre-seeding is to not add explicit entries, but add links to things like the above lists | 16:07 |
| fungi | as suggested places from which the community can draw ideas | 16:07 |
| dhellmann | good idea | 16:07 |
| pabelanger | mordred: ++ | 16:07 |
| fungi | do we explicitly require a 7-bit ascii representation? | 16:09 |
| fungi | like, strassberg instead of straßberg? | 16:09 |
| pabelanger | tc-members: I've updated https://review.openstack.org/545010/ as to not close nominations during PTG. Please review again if you already voted. | 16:10 |
| fungi | (noting that ss isn't quite interchangeable with ß but works in a pinch) | 16:10 |
| dhellmann | fungi : yes, 26 characters of ISO basic Latin: https://governance.openstack.org/tc/reference/release-naming.html#release-name-criteria | 16:11 |
| fungi | dhellmann: thanks for the reference! | 16:11 |
| fungi | so romanization possibly necessary for some selections | 16:11 |
| fungi | hard to believe we're already talking about names for our 19th release cycle | 16:17 |
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| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed openstack/governance master: Add resolution about CI for external projects https://review.openstack.org/545065 | 17:43 |
| fungi | this ^ would be quite helpful to the infra team | 17:49 |
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| pabelanger | ++ I'm in favor of supporting it. It does mean possible longer wait times for opentack projects to be tested. I know last PTG there were some people in the community that raised a voice when another project in openstack started consuming more nodes. | 17:53 |
| pabelanger | However, adding more cloud providers does help fix that :) | 17:54 |
| dmsimard | corvus: left a comment | 17:56 |
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| fungi | pabelanger: i doubt it means that in the near term. the quantity of third-party ci jobs we would run at the outset would be a tiny percentage of our overall job volume | 18:23 |
| fungi | if it becomes popular enough to represent a noticeable proportion of job volume (which i doubt it ever would) then there are plenty of options to address that when it happens | 18:24 |
| fungi | not the least of which is that we can turn off our tests of external projects until we come up with a better solution | 18:25 |
| fungi | so i wouldn't want to see us get into the weeds predicting what that would look like | 18:25 |
| pabelanger | fungi: yup, agree. Just wanted to highlight a possible issue | 18:25 |
| persia | At this point, I think the only important part is to ensure the language permits that retraction (or other limitation) of service. Until something happens, we can't know what will happen, but when it does, it is best to have a range of options. | 18:27 |
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| EmilienM | pabelanger: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/545010/ commented. | 19:04 |
| EmilienM | but I'm not sure actually, let me verify again | 19:05 |
| mugsie | EmilienM: I am pretty sure Berlin was its own state | 19:09 |
| EmilienM | mugsie: I updated | 19:09 |
| EmilienM | but yeah, Berlin is its own state I think | 19:10 |
| mugsie | ah, that makes more sense for an area alright | 19:12 |
| smcginnis | I think we've preferred local areas, but allowed broader selection. | 19:13 |
| pabelanger | EmilienM: I don't think it is wrong, but reading http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/governance/tree/reference/release-naming.rst#n83 just makes reference to a region encompassing the location of the summit. I took that to be Germany, but you are right, it is not a province / state but country | 19:15 |
| EmilienM | pabelanger: Ja, mein Freund! | 19:16 |
| EmilienM | (I didn't have to google it btw :P) | 19:16 |
| EmilienM | I suggest for any german question we poke cmurphy :) I've heard she's an expert now ;) | 19:17 |
| cmurphy | lol | 19:17 |
| cmurphy | if the summit was in franconia i might have an idea | 19:17 |
| cmurphy | berlin is kind of a unique beast | 19:17 |
| pabelanger | We could change it to the state of which Berlin is part of. I personally don't have a preference | 19:17 |
| cmurphy | berlin seems to be its own region and state | 19:19 |
| pabelanger | EmilienM: cmurphy: left a reply on 545010, if we want to update, I'm okay with that. But we should be more specific in our region selection (state / province) | 19:23 |
| pabelanger | mordred: maybe you have a moment to look at 545010, since you've been responsible for naming releases until now^ | 19:24 |
| EmilienM | having "Berlin" in region name works for me | 19:24 |
| EmilienM | so far this is what Wikipedia tells us | 19:24 |
| mordred | pabelanger, EmilienM: AH - so ... the process so far for this has been that I've just made a judgement call about what region 'feels right' and then proposed that | 19:25 |
| cmurphy | berlin is big enough and has enough history that there could be tons of ideas | 19:26 |
| EmilienM | ++ | 19:26 |
| mordred | yah. it's also conceivable that we'd have a second summit in germany in a non-berlin area | 19:26 |
| EmilienM | mordred: it's Ja, not "yah" (in german) | 19:27 |
| * EmilienM runs | 19:27 | |
| cmurphy | lol | 19:27 |
| mordred | but it's worth noting that catalonia, texas hill country and new england are not strictly speaking states/provinces | 19:27 |
| mordred | EmilienM: es tut mir leid :) | 19:28 |
| EmilienM | :-O | 19:28 |
| openstackgerrit | Paul Belanger proposed openstack/governance master: Add naming poll info for S release https://review.openstack.org/545010 | 19:29 |
| pabelanger | Berlin it is! | 19:29 |
| mordred | pabelanger: lgtm! | 19:29 |
| mordred | also - what with berlin being located on the Spree - MAYBE this time we'll actually pick a name that evokes the place in question | 19:30 |
| pabelanger | ++ | 19:30 |
| * smcginnis sees a lot of Spree's candy at the summit. | 19:30 | |
| EmilienM | +2 | 19:31 |
| cmurphy | you don't think the havana release evoked portland? | 19:31 |
| openstackgerrit | Matt Riedemann proposed openstack/governance master: Mark the mutable-config goal done for nova https://review.openstack.org/545100 | 19:31 |
| * mordred is pretty sure we'll somehow figure out how to choose Strasbourg as the name | 19:31 | |
| mordred | cmurphy: :) | 19:32 |
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| fungi | about as much as juno evoked atlanta | 19:36 |
| EmilienM | mordred: it's where I'm from | 19:36 |
| fungi | or as much as liberty evoked vancouver for that matter | 19:37 |
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| openstackgerrit | Sean McGinnis proposed openstack/governance master: Mark the mutable-config goal done for Cinder https://review.openstack.org/545103 | 19:38 |
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| openstackgerrit | James E. Blair proposed openstack/governance master: Add resolution about CI for external projects https://review.openstack.org/545065 | 21:07 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: replace tracking sections with storyboard links for rocky goals https://review.openstack.org/545130 | 21:29 |
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