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| openstackgerrit | Dai Dang Van proposed openstack/governance master: Update policy goal for trove https://review.openstack.org/529447 | 01:20 |
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| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEnhlwev: mordred amrith johnthetubaguy alex_xu david-lyle tdasilva dirk zaneb mnaser dmsimard dims evrard | 04:17 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEnsunzc: mordred notmyname smcginnis dims TheJulia dmsimard evrar | 04:17 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODElukjreplwn: jungleboyj robcresswell med_ per | 04:17 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEnhjitrld: thingee lbragstad mordred gcb mgagne openstackstatus tdasilva SamYaple med_ mtreinish fdegir alex_xu ian | 04:17 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODExxxlmirfx: openstack TheJulia fdegir thingee mtreinish | 04:17 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEbhmbdv: mgagne ianw_pto tdasilva johnthetubaguy pabelanger robcresswell openstackgerrit persia tonyb amr | 04:17 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEajlci: dirk mordred dhellmann tonyb med_ TheJulia diablo_rojo smcginnis pa | 04:17 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEwwyxmub: Dunca | 04:17 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEzdfht: diablo_rojo johnt | 04:17 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEvskfgalay: notmyname smc | 04:18 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEsjqgc: david-lyle dmsimard notmyname robcresswell purplerbot joh | 04:18 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEuflgvjpx: mordred mnaser persia knikolla tdasilva dims david-lyle robcresswell mgagne openstackgerrit med_ Emilien | 04:18 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODErwktwox: dhellmann mwhahaha amrith tristanC tdasilva openstackstatus ianw_pto mnaser johnthetubaguy mtreinish evra | 04:18 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEcsxylf: dmsima | 04:18 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEokjuva: dims tonyb mordred TheJulia jroll knikolla SamYaple notm | 04:18 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEpujff: alex_xu openstackstatus dia | 04:18 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODElgldoxtlct: dirk Emilien | 04:18 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEzkczhx: med_ alex_xu flwang fungi openstack lbragstad evrardjp smcginnis zaneb david | 04:18 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEahfjigep: amrith dtantsur|afk jroll zaneb mgagne tristanC med_ TheJulia johnsom evra | 04:18 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEgqbqq: evrardjp Guest99680 dhellmann david-l | 04:18 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEimwuq: johnsom lbragstad flwang dtantsur|afk openstackstatus openstackgerrit dirk zaneb fungi mgagne persia med_ m | 04:18 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEgrhvdelnu: robcresswell TheJulia mtreinish thingee fdegir tristanC gcb jun | 04:19 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEpwjpmrryja: liujiong jungleboyj fl | 04:19 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEsfderq: johnthetubaguy fungi kniko | 04:19 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEgcjmlyooqb: mo | 04:19 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEtvpti: persia tdasilva openstack DuncanT flwang johnsom diablo_rojo dirk TheJulia fdegir david-lyle med_ knikolla | 04:19 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODElbcjat: knikolla mgagne flwang johnsom dims mnaser persia dirk EmilienM pu | 04:19 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEchjoedrah: purplerbot tristanC dav | 04:19 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEqqicp: alex_xu liujiong jroll jungleboyj thingee notmyname mnaser openstackgerrit ro | 04:19 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEovwtn: pabelanger dims liujiong gcb tonyb fungi purple | 04:19 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEvljhwiylu: david-lyle dmsimard med_ jroll tdasilva gcb dirk alex_xu zaneb johnthetubaguy fdegi | 04:19 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEflait: pabelan | 04:19 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEbghduwrmp: fungi mordred openstackgerrit jungleboyj jr | 04:19 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEvizaeafb: evrardjp DuncanT knikolla jroll lbragstad tdasilva dtantsur|afk amrith ope | 04:20 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEyppwezxkqi: johnthetubaguy TheJulia persia jungleboyj thingee EmilienM pabelanger tdasilva rob | 04:20 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEirlafzn: SamYaple alex_xu Guest99680 flwang knikolla j | 04:20 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODElygopzf: Guest99680 ianw_pto thingee evrardjp smcginnis jungleboyj fdegir mwhahaha jroll pabelanger dmsi | 04:20 |
| haken_gra696 | ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10308021/filing-history christel sold freenode to Private Internet Access Andrew Lee WHO ALSO OWNS SNOONET AND IS MOVING FREENODE TO THAT SERVER (NEXT MONTH) AND CLOSING DOWN OPEN SOURCE ROOMS PLEASE COMPLAIN IN CHAN FREENODEmjkidhzw: openstackgerrit liujiong ianw_pto gcb mnaser tdasilva dmsimard evrardjp fdegir zaneb flwang dhellmann pe | 04:20 |
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| dims | someone really wants to talk to us :) | 13:01 |
| cdent | luke has been doing that for days and days and days and days | 13:01 |
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| cdent | huh, I thought part of the challenge with everyone consuming notifications is that they are not broadcast pub/sub-like, but instead are consume once and gone. I seem to recall from ceilometer days that we had this problem. If ceilo at the notifications, nothing else could have them. | 13:18 |
| cdent | Is that still true, or was it every true? | 13:18 |
| cdent | Can we change it? | 13:18 |
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| dmsimard | I was asleep when last night's spam wave happened but last time it happened earlier this week I limited the damage by kickbanning bots and turning channel restrictions on | 13:54 |
| dmsimard | fungi and I discussed probably implementing this in accessbot | 13:55 |
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| dims | dmsimard : thanks! | 14:15 |
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| fungi | well, implementing the flag which rejects unregistered nicks from /join'ing channels. it's something we would normally ever enact under persistent spam attacks since lots of people have enough trouble figuring out how to use irc much less figuring out how to register their nick and identify with nickserv | 14:38 |
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| smcginnis | It would be unfortunate if we forced casual folks into going through all that. | 14:53 |
| smcginnis | Hopefully this doesn't persist. | 14:53 |
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| fungi | tc-members: here's hoping for a more active office hour than wednesday ;) | 15:00 |
| * smcginnis wants to just watch fungi talk to himself | 15:00 | |
| dtroyer | Hey ho! | 15:00 |
| * cdent listens to fungi | 15:00 | |
| fungi | worst case, i can invite the spambot back for an encore | 15:00 |
| * dtroyer spoils smcginnis' fun | 15:00 | |
| smcginnis | :) | 15:00 |
| cmurphy | hello | 15:01 |
| cmurphy | thanks for holding down the fort yesterday fungi | 15:01 |
| pabelanger | o/ | 15:02 |
| cdent | Yeah, I reckon we all owe fungi a great deal for the huge effort at mediation he performed | 15:02 |
| dims | o/ | 15:02 |
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| * dtroyer read meditation at first there | 15:02 | |
| * cmurphy did too | 15:03 | |
| fungi | it was a little of both | 15:03 |
| fungi | also cartoons | 15:03 |
| fungi | okay, actually it was in fact mostly cartoons | 15:04 |
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| dtroyer | certain cartoons can lead to the same sorts of questions and pondering… well, maybe just "Duck Amuck" | 15:05 |
| persia | In the backscroll since the last office hour, there was some discussion of reasons to say negative things about OpenStack: one source I didn't see mentioned, but I sometimes encounter is complaints from people who are used to using traditional VMs, who complain about volume management, difficulties with the OS install process, etc. These same folk seem delighted with container management tooling, as it does what they want without overloading | 15:05 |
| persia | their concept of "VM". I don't know how prevalent this is, or how many folk don't use pre-installed images, etc., but it may be one of the many sources of distaste. | 15:05 |
| dtroyer | now I'm wondering how that fits with certain recent topics here | 15:05 |
| fungi | containers amuck | 15:06 |
| dtroyer | persia: I saw someone also mention a change in how we think about nova in particular as suited to cloud apps vs VM management. | 15:06 |
| dtroyer | fungi: ++ | 15:06 |
| fungi | persia: by "pre-installed images" you mean booting instances from default images the service provider makes available vs supplying their own images and booting those? | 15:07 |
| persia | fungi: I mean booting an instance from an image that represents an installed OS, rather than one that represents an OS installer. | 15:08 |
| fungi | ahh, gotcha | 15:08 |
| persia | Service providers can make images available, but users may not choose to use them (especially when using them requires them to rethink how they are doing things) | 15:08 |
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| dtroyer | also certain requirements for repeatability discourage the use of images that may go away at operators discretion | 15:09 |
| fungi | well, i'll admit that at least for infra's use case, which involves attempting to treat systems consistently across multiple service providers, building our own images and uploading them has become essential. no two providers have exactly teh same images in their catalog | 15:09 |
| persia | One pattern I've seen that represents this class of thinking is for folk given access to AWS or an OpenStack to install a VMHost, in which they launch VMs for multiple sysroots, or similar. | 15:09 |
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| fungi | oh, nesting virtual machines inside the nova-booted or aws instances? | 15:11 |
| persia | As one possible example, there are lots of docs about using `docker build` to create an image to use with docker. There are many fewer for d-i-b. | 15:12 |
| persia | fungi: Yes: I believe this comes from internal semantic mapping for "virtual machine" as being something into which one installs an OS, rather than conceiving of the API resource as being something to which one passes a sysroot directly. | 15:13 |
| smcginnis | IIRC, only very recent versions of libvirt really supported nested virtualization well. | 15:14 |
| persia | smcginnis: That's just a performance optimisation: low-speed nested virtualisation has been supported for decades. | 15:15 |
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| cdent | it's certainly been the case for me when talking to random people that they can instantly grasp why they want to 'docker build' and much slower for why they want to do the nova boot dance | 15:15 |
| persia | cdent: "nova boot dance"? | 15:16 |
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| fungi | yeah, the term "nested virtualization" is often misused to refer to hardware accelerated nested virt | 15:17 |
| fungi | but you can certainly nest virtual machines in other virtual machines without hardware optimizations to make them more performant | 15:17 |
| cdent | persia: make a virtual machine, which happens to have an os, on which I need to do some stuff, and some other stuff, and yet other stuff, before I can actually do something | 15:17 |
| persia | cdent: Ah, as opposed to just having nova boot a preconfigured environment that happens to have the right things. Yes, I suppose my point ends up being "the current messaging about nova boot suggests it is complicated, whereas other tooling suggests it can be simple to instantiate a repeatable custom environment." Thanks for helping me understand that :) | 15:19 |
| dtroyer | in other words, comparing eating an apple salad bought from the deli vs picking apples, cutting them up, etc… | 15:19 |
| persia | dtroyer: Yes, although in practice, the underlying mechanisms aren't actually that different. We already have tooling that automates the picking, cleaning, cutting, etc. (being d-i-b + glance, IIRC) | 15:20 |
| cdent | persia: yeah, it's a messaging problem | 15:21 |
| fungi | successful uses of nova virtual machine instances tend to involve some sort of orchestration and configuration management engine deploying your applications into the vm for you once you boot it | 15:21 |
| fungi | if you're using generic images that is | 15:21 |
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| fungi | rather than having it boot up already configured with your application installed | 15:22 |
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| smcginnis | We have default volume types in cinder. Maybe we need a default instance flavor in nova. Then we can do "openstack run xenial" and get a running environment. | 15:22 |
| smcginnis | Or "openstack run my_app_configured_image | 15:23 |
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| TheJulia | smcginnis: or click in a gui... | 15:23 |
| smcginnis | TheJulia: Gooey? :) Yeah, that too. | 15:23 |
| * EmilienM waves | 15:24 | |
| * fungi keeps forgetting we have one of those | 15:24 | |
| dtroyer | smcginnis: too many opinions! Even if we had baked in defaults from the start for flavors, etc, we'd still not be able to do that on j-random-cloud without a priori knowledge of the deployment | 15:24 |
| TheJulia | I wonder how much of it is things like cli preference | 15:24 |
| TheJulia | or lack their of | 15:24 |
| smcginnis | dtroyer: It would require some admin pre-config ahead of time, but if you know there is a typical default, it could help in some situations. | 15:24 |
| ttx | ohai | 15:24 |
| TheJulia | so what if there was tooling to discover or assist an operator in pre-baking a population for their environment? | 15:25 |
| smcginnis | But just brainstorming. | 15:25 |
| ttx | bit late due to real life interruptions | 15:25 |
| pabelanger | smcginnis: you've basically described nodepool, does require defining the defaults, but once done, you ask for specific label and comes online. But, how would that be different then say, heat? Assuming cloud was running heat | 15:25 |
| smcginnis | pabelanger: I was going to bring up heat but decided against it. :) | 15:25 |
| dtroyer | TheJulia: mordred has a proposal somehwere for the downloadable/cacheable cloud discovery doc that would/should include this | 15:25 |
| smcginnis | Just for the reason we were talking simplicity. But that probably is the better answer. | 15:26 |
| pabelanger | smcginnis: okay (I agree) I just wasn't sure if it was something else | 15:26 |
| smcginnis | ;) | 15:27 |
| * smcginnis steps out for appts | 15:27 | |
| dtroyer | We're dancing around (again) one of the things that will always favor public clouds individually in these discussions, knowing a bunch of default/configuration values ahead of time. | 15:27 |
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| dtroyer | as a broup of course they are all different, but the comparison we see is "AWS vs OpenStack" not "AWS vs CityCloud" or whpomever | 15:28 |
| TheJulia | dtroyer: I feel like there are two^Wthree different cases. Structure of the cloud as the user perceives it, Operator preference for what runs in that cloud, and then user preference for $things being in the image that they may need. | 15:28 |
| mordred | dtroyer: yes - I need to rebase and fix that | 15:28 |
| dtroyer | Since OpenStack as a whole does not have that level of control, we will always 'lose' at that level of comparison | 15:29 |
| dtroyer | TheJulia: I think it has those three levels defined IIRC | 15:30 |
| mordred | TheJulia: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/459869/ fwiw | 15:31 |
| persia | I feel like we're moving from "users complain about X" to "operators should do X for users": is there not something that can be done for users that all the operators end up having without needing them to each individually make changes? | 15:31 |
| TheJulia | dtroyer: I might be thinking way lower level in terms of operator preference, like preferred kernels or preferred versions of particular packages of things because the line between operator and user is semi-blurred | 15:32 |
| mordred | persia: I agree - if the result is "tons of work for operators" it's not going to happen - however, if there is a way we can empower operators to easily make their users' lives better, and if the operator *doesn't* do it it's still available to the user as a local override ... | 15:32 |
| dtroyer | persia: my gut reaction is the answer is "not give operators so many knobs to twiddle" | 15:32 |
| fungi | persia: i feel like that's a big point to the interop effort | 15:32 |
| mordred | that's where I think the biggest win is | 15:32 |
| fungi | but basically if we can take choices away from operators, it reduces the ways in which they will "differentiate" themselves and pass that confution along to users | 15:33 |
| fungi | confusion | 15:33 |
| dtroyer | TheJulia: gotcha… we were straddling images and contents with API-level comparisons | 15:33 |
| dtroyer | fungi says it in much nore palatable language :) | 15:34 |
| fungi | however, to a great extent i don't think taking configurability away from deployers and operators works well in practice, since that's part of where our service provider culture of everyone carrying their own forks of openstack stems from | 15:34 |
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| fungi | we can't every completely take away the ability to customize openstack, since it's free software | 15:34 |
| fungi | what we've been able to take away is the ability to use specific trademarks | 15:35 |
| TheJulia | dtroyer: I think it still all kind of goes together, because it does boil down to making life easier in a sense | 15:35 |
| persia | My thought was more that things like "allow operators to provide a default with a short name" is an over-optimisation, but yeah, interop and more similarity between deployments both help. | 15:35 |
| dtroyer | would it be interesting to compare say ESX with OpenStack in terms of the number/kinds of things that deployments can configure? how many internal forks are there because they can instead of because it was really necessary? | 15:35 |
| TheJulia | dtroyer: or how much internal code is tied up trying to handle things that esx doesn't support well because of an operators opinions with their deployment | 15:37 |
| fungi | well, also i don't think intentional differentiation is behind _all_ the internal forking. a lot of the blame also rests on how hard upgrades used to be, and the need to manually backport critical fixes to whatever version a deployment was "stuck" running | 15:37 |
| fungi | but once you've already decided you can't get away from running a fork anyway, the temptation to go ahead and add some bells and whistles in your fork may become greater/more palatable | 15:38 |
| persia | Most of the complaints about "OpenStack" I hear aren't about particular deployments, or even differences between deployments: users I speak with seem happy to move between operators, or between internal/private clouds and various operators. | 15:39 |
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| dtroyer | sometimes those deployments are stuck because of the customization done too. my hunch is that a good number of deployments with internal forks would not have done that again (as much) knowing what they know now. Anyone know if we have a way to confirm or deny that hunch? | 15:39 |
| fungi | we experienced this years ago running a fork of gerrit. we had one important (to us) feature we were having no luck upstreaming. but once we were committed to having to run a fork to maintain that feature, anything else we could have upstreamed was arguably easier to just put in our fork since we couldn't see the light at the end of the tunnel for when we'd be able to actually use anything we upstreamed | 15:40 |
| fungi | anyway | 15:40 |
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| mriedem | mordred: persia: get-me-a-network as an example? | 15:41 |
| mriedem | ops just setup the default network i think and the rest is handled automagically by neutron | 15:42 |
| persia | mriedem: For some value of "automagically", depending on the level of tenant customisation required, but yes, that's a good example. | 15:42 |
| mriedem | similar idea here https://review.openstack.org/#/c/511965/ | 15:43 |
| mriedem | half baked at this point, but make boot from volume simpler | 15:43 |
| mriedem | if you want multiple disks in a specific boot order with ephemeral and swap and guest format and disk buses, do that using the full API | 15:43 |
| mriedem | but if you just want your volume-backed instance with the image in the root disk, make it simpler | 15:44 |
| fungi | `openstack server do-what-i-want` | 15:44 |
| mordred | right. and then in shade the idea is to use get-me-a-network if the cloud has it, and fake it for the user is the cloud doensn't have it | 15:44 |
| fungi | `openstack server make-me-a-sandwich` | 15:44 |
| mriedem | dtroyer: "Anyone know if we have a way to confirm or deny that hunch?" yes that's very real | 15:44 |
| mriedem | i don't have a way to confirm it, because a lot of companies don't like to talk about it publicly | 15:45 |
| mriedem | but i know of at least a few that have that problem | 15:45 |
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| dtroyer | mriedem: thanks, that at least broadens the pool of anecdata there | 15:45 |
| mriedem | some are pretty public about it | 15:45 |
| mordred | I have been at at least one while it discovered the epic horror of what it had done to itself | 15:46 |
| mriedem | penick and mgagne and klindgren come to mind | 15:46 |
| mriedem | really anyone running cellsv1 | 15:46 |
| mordred | and that led to a policy of NEVER landing local patches without them at least being submitted upstream with some sort of upstream buy-on on the idea | 15:46 |
| mriedem | mordred: the smart ones do that | 15:46 |
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| TheJulia | but what does buy-in mean? does that mean that the submitter is going to continue to work the patch until it lands before applying internally, or does it mean that one +2, and then the patch becomes maintained and never land? Seems like a communication of expectation issue from both sides. | 15:49 |
| TheJulia | s/maintained/unmaintained/ | 15:49 |
| mriedem | buy-in is generally at a minimum a "this isn't totally bat shit crazy" | 15:50 |
| mriedem | or "-1 this is not the place to do this" from a core reviewer | 15:50 |
| fungi | as in "we can probably get that feature implemented in some form, even if it looks nothing like your implementation under the hood?" | 15:51 |
| mriedem | if it's a bug fix that can generally fly, because if people agree it's a bug, hopefully it eventually gets fixed upstream even if not the original way you proposed | 15:51 |
| mriedem | if it's a feature, that's a different story | 15:51 |
| mriedem | IMO | 15:51 |
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| mriedem | depends on the feature, risk tolerance, etc | 15:51 |
| mriedem | if it's like a config option or something, pretty trivial, then it might be fine | 15:52 |
| TheJulia | maybe projects should build consensus around expectations in terms of contributions if they haven't already? | 15:52 |
| mriedem | if it's a new API microversion, you probably don't want to risk that | 15:52 |
| mriedem | it depends on the company making the contribution too really | 15:52 |
| mriedem | and what their policy and culture are | 15:52 |
| TheJulia | each project, is naturally going to be different based on the composition of people, and their commitments. | 15:52 |
| TheJulia | mriedem: exactly | 15:52 |
| fungi | i heard a lot of anecdotes out of rackspace that their forks of stuff ended up being self-perpetuating because they implemented features/options differently than what got upstreamed (if they ever got upstreamed in some cases), and had customers depending on those features in production so were contractually obligated to maintain their alternate reality even if support for something basically the same | 15:53 |
| fungi | eventually emerged upstream with slightly different characteristics | 15:53 |
| mriedem | i fought for about 4 years at ibm to get us to a sane upstream<>downstream policy that finally got exec backing, but it was a hard slog | 15:53 |
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| mriedem | and then shortly after that they killed the project :/ | 15:53 |
| TheJulia | fungi: I wonder how many of those features were driven by short timelines for business requirements to differentiate themselves as a provider. | 15:55 |
| fungi | mriedem: i so wanted to be able to nova boot a systemz lpar | 15:55 |
| TheJulia | heh | 15:55 |
| mriedem | fungi: you still can https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:bp/add-zvm-driver-queens+status:open | 15:56 |
| fungi | TheJulia: no idea, but if it was at all like my old service provider job it was probably the sort of thing were sales said "we have this big deal who says they'll sign if only we get feature x they need added" | 15:56 |
| mtreinish | fungi: you're giving me flashbacks to those akward meetings I had with the z/OS hypervisor team years ago on doing that... | 15:56 |
| mriedem | TheJulia: it surely is driven in part by that, | 15:56 |
| fungi | mtreinish: just use "facility" every third word and they'll assume you know what you're talking about | 15:56 |
| mriedem | i remember fighing a group consuming our stuff that was getting ready for ibm interconnect, which is the big ibm sales pow wow thing i guess, and getting escalated daily about why i wouldn't backport some features that weren't yet +2 upstream | 15:57 |
| mriedem | like the whole "don't you know who i am?!" thing | 15:57 |
| TheJulia | I fought a lot of that at HP[E] when I was split upstream/downstream | 15:57 |
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| TheJulia | That desire to sell things or be flashy tends to be the focus and the debt of doing so doesn't calculate in. | 15:59 |
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| TheJulia | I wonder if things would change, at least in that interaction if they were able to scope the amount of effort/debt they would be building up by doing so | 15:59 |
| * TheJulia is just thinking outloud | 16:00 | |
| mriedem | that's what i started doing about 2 years into the maintenance of mistakes made before i was even really working upstream, | 16:01 |
| mriedem | i started keeping track of every merge conflict we'd have (twice daily rebases with upstream), tag it about which feature it was related to, and how much time i spent working on it | 16:01 |
| mriedem | so i could eventually say, you're paying me x in salary and i'm spending y of my week on maintaining something that is not making you money | 16:02 |
| mriedem | meanwhile the architects that pushed the early "value add" forks had all moved onto other positions and didn't have to care about the maintenance of said mistakes | 16:02 |
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| TheJulia | That is a good post feature feedback loop. At least in Ironic, I feel like we don't arm developers that appear to implement a feature with enough information to set expectations appropriate/realistic expectations with the business. I feel like someone in the community for a while is able to grasp that, and communicate that upwards though. | 16:06 |
| mriedem | well you're also assuming the developer cares | 16:07 |
| TheJulia | true | 16:07 |
| mriedem | or plans on maintaining that thing | 16:07 |
| TheJulia | Yeah | 16:08 |
| * TheJulia would like to believe that everyone cares | 16:08 | |
| mriedem | i tend to get into long co-dependent abusive relationships with the code i write | 16:08 |
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| fungi | to some degree, "startup mentality" plays into this too... accruing debt (be it technical or financial) early on is assumed to either be dwarfed by the success you'll drown in later or become irrelevant since you'll go out of business/scrap that business unit and move onto the next big thing | 16:15 |
| fungi | and if you're successful, solving the technical debt can become somebody elses problem | 16:15 |
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| jroll | TheJulia: some of those rackspace things were to differentiate (I think), but more were to 1) get a major thing done in months, not years, and 2) to handle the scale they were operating at (see cells v1, the upstream version is really only half done) | 17:42 |
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