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| -openstackstatus- NOTICE: The freenode network is currently the target of automated spam attacks, we have enabled temporary restrictions on targetted OpenStack channels which requires users to be logged on to NickServ. If you see spam in your channel, please report it in #openstack-infra. Thanks. | 01:48 | |
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| * cmurphy returns from vacation, may have to declare bankruptcy on long dev cycles thread T.T | 08:45 | |
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| openstackgerrit | Chandan Kumar proposed openstack/governance master: Added blazar-tempest-plugin to blazar project https://review.openstack.org/528666 | 09:22 |
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| openstackgerrit | Chandan Kumar proposed openstack/governance master: Added blazar-tempest-plugin to blazar project https://review.openstack.org/528666 | 09:34 |
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| cmurphy | re CD of openstack not being viable (http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/%23openstack-tc.2017-12-14.log.html#t2017-12-14T16:18:44), I recall the TW guys were successful at it, though it would be hard to find them on irc these days | 09:51 |
| cmurphy | re slowing development pace (http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/%23openstack-tc.2017-12-14.log.html#t2017-12-14T16:45:48) I'm surprised nova and ironic are suspicious of the numbers, in keystone we feel it a lot | 09:52 |
| cmurphy | re part-timers making big changes (http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/%23openstack-tc.2017-12-14.log.html#t2017-12-14T17:04:20) or leading the project (http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23openstack-tc/%23openstack-tc.2017-12-14.log.html#t2017-12-14T17:07:11) I would disagree, the keystone team is pretty much entirely made up of part-timers except for the PTL (who I am pretty | 09:52 |
| cmurphy | sure is twins pretending to be one person) | 09:52 |
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| ttx | Posted a TL;DR: for the megathread | 14:09 |
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| ttx | \Hoping it helps | 14:09 |
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| cmurphy | i'm about 80% through it now | 14:10 |
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| ttx | cmurphy: great, you'll be able to tell me if I missed a ceoncern/objection | 14:12 |
| cmurphy | :) | 14:12 |
| ttx | I also included most of the discussion that happened here with EmilienM and mriedem | 14:13 |
| mugsie | re leading a project: for Pike all of the Designate core team were less than 20% people. | 14:13 |
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| mugsie | not a great release, or time for the project, but we kept lights on | 14:13 |
| ttx | mugsie: is there anything you'd recommend getting rid of that would make life easier ? | 14:14 |
| ttx | mugsie: we've been considering removing the tag at milestones | 14:14 |
| mugsie | the tag at milestones was not a big deal (especially with the new o/releases repo) | 14:14 |
| ttx | It's a bit of a tradeoff between keeping people aware of their release duties and useless action | 14:14 |
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| mugsie | it was just keeping up with changes to other projects / libraries | 14:15 |
| mugsie | things would change in devstack / tempest / other shared tooling, and we wouldn't have the time to dig in and fix it | 14:15 |
| ttx | Anyway, if you have simple suggestions to remove 'keeping the lights on' burden, I'll take them | 14:16 |
| mugsie | e.g. we wrote off the mitaka release from the denver PTG onwards | 14:16 |
| ttx | for example, the dev digest could include all work driven by other projects that you need to inplenebt locally | 14:17 |
| ttx | implement | 14:17 |
| fungi | granted, changes in support tooling usually happen in order to accommodate needs of other teams, so seems like this comes back to the stresses of coordinating release between multiple deliverables with varied paces of development/levels of activity | 14:17 |
| ttx | i m p l e m e n t | 14:17 |
| cdent | fungi++ | 14:17 |
| mugsie | yeah - and for a more contraversial opinion, when changes are made to core things like devstack, testing changes for more than just "core" projects would be great | 14:18 |
| cdent | definite impedence mismatches going on | 14:18 |
| ttx | basically I'm not sure we'll go ahead with this change -- but I'd hate it if we decided to ignore the issues and sweep the dust under the rug and pretend everything is perfect | 14:19 |
| ttx | even if it's not the perfect solution, we still have a (set of) problem(s) to solve. | 14:20 |
| mugsie | (i know we have a lack of people who know how to do that, and their time is limited, but that was a major rats nest that meant instead of us doing work at the PTG we were trying to debug gate issue with 2 or 3 different tools) | 14:20 |
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| cdent | ttx: I think broaching the problem(s) is a good first step, but we need to be more diligent about tracing some of the underlying issues | 14:21 |
| * TheJulia drifts in with a cup of coffee in hand | 14:21 | |
| cdent | there are a lot of messages in that thread which, had we the time, we should actually investigate | 14:21 |
| fungi | ttx: as for your tl;dr, 118 message thread on the dev ml _and_ another 10 message thread on the ops ml just referring to it ;) | 14:23 |
| ttx | cdent: the Kubernetes steering committee maintains a backlog of stuff they want to address sometimes | 14:23 |
| ttx | https://github.com/kubernetes/steering/blob/master/backlog.md | 14:23 |
| ttx | I mean, I have my own list, but expressing it could help 1/ explaining what we'd like to do and 2/ sharnig the load | 14:25 |
| dtroyer | We have known that the 6 month cycle is a compromise for a long time, and intentionally chose it. The fundamental tradeoffs do not appear to have changed. Tweaking it a month or two in either direction would be a small adjustment to account for community changes over the last few years, but that loses to the desire to stick to a clean multiple of releases per calendar year. | 14:25 |
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| dtroyer | Do we see anything this time around that has significantly changed (up or down) in importance in reaching the compromise? | 14:25 |
| fungi | it does seem like making the compromise has gotten incrementally harder cycle after cycle | 14:26 |
| ttx | dtroyer: shouldn't you be sleeping? | 14:26 |
| ttx | Also you have remarkable thoughts given your local time | 14:26 |
| dtroyer | maybe we need a condorcet vote on the traceoff issues? | 14:26 |
| fungi | i don't expect it to be any one cycle in particular where we suddenly make a jump from "things are going just great!" to "onoz, fixitfixit!!!" | 14:27 |
| dtroyer | ttx: my developer hat says yes, my human hat says it's 8:26, GET UP! | 14:27 |
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| ttx | So another fun change I've been toying with is the idea of getting rid of PTLs and use a lead concept. Biut I figure we could wait until January until we do another giant thread | 14:28 |
| ttx | i.e. have lead or co-leads at the top of project teams | 14:28 |
| ttx | and use the TC in case of lock | 14:29 |
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| cdent | ttx what's the difference? | 14:29 |
| cmurphy | was just about to ask the same | 14:29 |
| mugsie | one is elected, one isn't? | 14:29 |
| ttx | cdent: no electionm can be multiple people sharing the load | 14:29 |
| ttx | cdent: no election, can be multiple people sharing the load | 14:29 |
| cmurphy | we already kind of have that though | 14:30 |
| cdent | okay, but what would that change, or leverage? | 14:30 |
| cmurphy | this cycle almost none of the PTLs had to really be elected | 14:30 |
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| dtroyer | we have had teams occasionally say "these two are sharing the ptl job" and only picked one name for the slot because we enforced one name for the slot. | 14:30 |
| ttx | cdent: we had that discussion at the k8s/openstack meeting. Their lead system makes it easier to share the load | 14:31 |
| ttx | it's also more fluid | 14:31 |
| ttx | add onem remove one | 14:31 |
| ttx | add one, remove one | 14:31 |
| persia | Reducing enforcement of only one name is probably a soft change that might help in cases where there are a couple. On the other hand, when there are more than one potentials, those not elected tend to be fairly involved in the next cycle. | 14:31 |
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| ttx | the only drawback of the k8s system is that there is no natural time to step down | 14:32 |
| cdent | It doesn't sound like it gets to any root issues though? It's sort of a shuffling of the cards to see what changes | 14:32 |
| cdent | of course: what are the root issues is a useful question | 14:32 |
| cmurphy | ttx: again, we already have that - lately PTLship is coordinated with an informal handoff, with the election process officializing it | 14:32 |
| dtroyer | even if the need for an actual election is small, I'm not comfortable with removing the 'elected' aspect of our project leadership. I think it is important to leave the ultimate choice with the contributors | 14:32 |
| mugsie | cmurphy: ++ | 14:32 |
| ttx | cdent: I disagree. Root issue that this would solve is the difficulty to spread teh PTL load | 14:32 |
| persia | ttx: Are many PTLs calling for this? | 14:33 |
| ttx | PTLs still do too much despite us saying they should spread the load | 14:33 |
| mugsie | ttx: I think that is more of a human issue - PTLs can already delagate most of their work to other project members | 14:33 |
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| ttx | It's easier to spread teh load if everyone can call themselves "lead" | 14:33 |
| dtroyer | PTLs who can not spread the load (/me looks in the mirror) have themselves to blame. | 14:34 |
| mugsie | sure, but you will always end up with one "lead lead" who herds the leads | 14:34 |
| cdent | Hmmm. Having never been a PTL I don't really know, but I wouldn't have put the struggles of the ptl high on the list of probles facing the entire community | 14:34 |
| dtroyer | if it is a title thing to help get resources through corporate management, we can address titles | 14:34 |
| ttx | I don't know. I said I've been toying with the idea over the last week, trying to see the implications | 14:35 |
| cmurphy | PTLs should take responsibility for delegating, and cores who see themselves as some day taking the mantle already step up to take some of the responsibilities | 14:35 |
| dtroyer | cdent: I can only speak from the standpoint of a really small project. In my case, it isn't | 14:35 |
| mugsie | ttx: is there many PTLs that are worried about the PTL duties taking up time, vs work that has to be done in the project that PTL just does because no one else will? | 14:35 |
| fungi | i am curious how having a project team "lead" effectively differs from having a "project team lead" | 14:36 |
| ttx | fungi: the only difference is that multiple people can hold the "role" | 14:36 |
| ttx | so you avoid the funnel effect | 14:36 |
| dtroyer | fungi likes the associative properties of double-quotes | 14:36 |
| fungi | we hold elections only if more than one person wants to be the primary for a given team, but we don't say people can't work together and delegate/share the load (in fact we encourage doing that, right?) | 14:37 |
| cmurphy | fungi: maybe we're not doing a good enough job of that | 14:37 |
| ttx | one obvious issue is that it introduces a bit of fuzziness... You have to contact 2-3 leads instead of one person | 14:37 |
| ttx | and then it might become nobody's problem to answer | 14:37 |
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| persia | I have heard the PTL job described as "the person who says no": while this isn't complete, that function is weakened without clear identification. | 14:38 |
| fungi | well, also in most cases i've seen, the people elected to be ptl are the ones who are doing a lot of the administrivia, rather than the other way around (they don't do those tasks because they're ptl, they're ptl because they do those tasks) | 14:38 |
| ttx | except nobody ever says no :) | 14:39 |
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| cdent | I reckon changing the ptl role is a bit of distraction, beacuse of exactly what ttx says: we have no created the culture where it is easy to say no | 14:40 |
| mriedem | i've said no a lot in the past | 14:40 |
| mriedem | mainly around FFEs | 14:40 |
| mriedem | and spec freeze exceptions | 14:40 |
| fungi | that's not entirely true (i feel like i said no to people rather frequently in my time as infra ptl, and i expect other ptls feel the same). i do agree there's a lot of pressure to please though | 14:40 |
| ttx | is it the PTL who says no though | 14:41 |
| ttx | or the "leaders" | 14:41 |
| cdent | mriedem: you don't say no enough | 14:41 |
| ttx | i.e the consensus of the leadership group | 14:41 |
| ttx | how much of it is personal | 14:41 |
| fungi | more often than being the person who says no, the ptl is the person tasked with bringing multiple parties to a point of compromise | 14:41 |
| cmurphy | what if there's disagreement amonog the leaders? | 14:41 |
| cdent | mriedem: it's great that you do what you do, but unfortunately to be sane, nova would need to say no a ton more | 14:41 |
| ttx | cmurphy: in k8s they solve it at the steering committee level | 14:42 |
| dtroyer | ttx: formally it is the PTL regardless, as when you sit at the top everything flows uphill. (Hmmm, is this where Zing's inverted pyramid makes the analogy better? ") | 14:42 |
| ttx | (so for us, that would be TC escalation | 14:42 |
| persia | Steering committes are dangerous: they separate the direction from the polity. | 14:42 |
| ttx | that's fair | 14:42 |
| cmurphy | ttx: I don't feel like I have the context to be able to make decisions like that for e.g. nova | 14:42 |
| persia | The TC has previously stepped away from steering decisions, which is probably wise. Undelegating those sorts of things ends up putting more pressure on TC. | 14:42 |
| ttx | indeed. | 14:43 |
| ttx | OK, just wanted to run the idea through y'all and see how much of it is desirable/applicable in our case | 14:43 |
| cdent | maybe it has less to do with saying no and more to do with _focused_ leadership | 14:43 |
| ttx | One key difference really is that we are a collection of projects | 14:43 |
| ttx | so that intermediary safety valve is actually useful | 14:44 |
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| ttx | while in Kubernetes it's a single (large) project | 14:44 |
| dtroyer | cdent: it has a lot to do with "My Thing" being told yes or no. | 14:44 |
| ttx | where they organize teams below something that can/should still make technical calls for the project | 14:45 |
| cdent | dtroyer: yeah, but I was trying to make a more positive spin on it. When there are clear shared goals that are limited, people can usually figure out what to do. | 14:45 |
| cdent | we're not great on the goals part, and especially not great on the sharing part | 14:45 |
| dtroyer | cdent: and they usually do. But they're not the noisy ones | 14:45 |
| smcginnis | Losing a PTL role could be risky. At least for me, once I became PTL, it worked in a positive way to be able to go to my management and justify that I needed to be able to devote more time to OpenStack because of it. | 14:46 |
| ttx | in case you were wondering, I like to play devil's advocate | 14:46 |
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| ttx | Lets me check that my landscape of drawbacks/benefits is actually complete | 14:46 |
| smcginnis | And I've seen in some cases where going for, and eventually getting, elected PTL was an impetus for someone to become more involved and learn to do more of the adminstrivia. | 14:46 |
| ttx | smcginnis: in k8s multiple people get the "corporate benefit" from being lead | 14:47 |
| smcginnis | ttx: I'm not entirely convinved there. At least not yet. | 14:48 |
| ttx | leading to more people getting involved in work coordination | 14:48 |
| smcginnis | ttx: I think it may actually be going the other direction. | 14:48 |
| smcginnis | The "corporate benefit" might be driving who is able to lead. | 14:48 |
| ttx | hah! | 14:48 |
| fungi | you could assert similar things about people appointed to core review teams for that matter | 14:49 |
| fungi | and yes, sorting out causation in these correlations can be tricky | 14:49 |
| mriedem | fwiw, when i was working toward nova core, it was a goal on my yearly business goals thingy at ibm | 14:50 |
| mriedem | so definitely something pushed by my management | 14:50 |
| mriedem | which at the time i thought they were nuts | 14:50 |
| persia | I thought that for k8s it was explicit: perhaps the presentations made by k8s project officials to different audiences differ, or perhaps I ended up attenting a talk by someone who had erred when trying to appeal to folk not often considered "community". | 14:50 |
| cdent | making comparisons to k8s (especially with regard to corp engagement) probably dangerous given difference in hype cycle | 14:50 |
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| mriedem | before i left ibm, being ptl was the only reason i really got to still work on the project | 14:50 |
| smcginnis | mriedem: I would be afraid to lose that. I don't think you are the only one that has been in that situation. | 14:52 |
| mriedem | at this point we don't have a bunch of people running in elections, but for a larger project with still active contributors, i think a point person is important | 14:53 |
| mriedem | there are multiple leads, but a lot of the leads don't want to be doing administrative work | 14:53 |
| mriedem | but there is nothing preventing people from "sharing the load" | 14:54 |
| mriedem | i helped john when he was ptl by doing stable stuff, some of the release work, and running the US timezone meeting | 14:54 |
| ttx | mriedem: posted a TL;DR for the 1-year cycle thread, please make sure your concerns are covered in my summary | 14:55 |
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| mriedem | i will resist the temptation to read that until after i've actually completed my todo list for today | 14:56 |
| cdent | I think we continue to operate in a relatively fearful position: people who are heavily invested want what amounts to a lifestyle to continue so perform heroics to maintain the output that OpenStack maintains. The fear is that if we start looking at changing that output, then the lifestyle collapses. How much of that fear is rational? | 14:57 |
| cdent | We seem deeply reluctant to turn to the corporate world and say "we're under resourced for this velocity" | 14:58 |
| mriedem | i think we've been saying that for a long time, | 14:58 |
| cdent | to each other | 14:58 |
| mriedem | i frequently point out what we *aren't* getting done b/c of lack of resources | 14:58 |
| smcginnis | People don't like change, no matter what. | 14:58 |
| cdent | I think we don't invite true investigation because there's fear the boondoggle falls down | 14:59 |
| mriedem | once in a rare while we actually get a corporate user stakeholder devote a good developer to help move something forward, | 14:59 |
| mriedem | case in point, stvnoys in the cinder new attach flow in nova in pike | 14:59 |
| mriedem | *stvnoyes | 14:59 |
| cdent | everything we talk about in terms of changing release cycles or doubling up ptls is not really addressing real issues | 15:00 |
| ttx | cdent: yes there is some of that, definitely | 15:00 |
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| * cdent pauses for some food | 15:01 | |
| ttx | good idea | 15:01 |
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| EmilienM | ttx: thx for the summary | 15:53 |
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| flaper87 | ttx: +1 for the summary! | 15:58 |
| cmurphy | ++ is a good summary | 15:58 |
| flaper87 | I expect the summary to explode too :P | 15:59 |
| flaper87 | perhaps not the same magnitude as the original thread | 15:59 |
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| openstackgerrit | Thierry Carrez proposed openstack/governance master: Upgrade assertion tags only apply to services https://review.openstack.org/528745 | 16:02 |
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| openstackgerrit | Lance Bragstad proposed openstack/governance master: Update policy artifacts for tacker https://review.openstack.org/513515 | 21:49 |
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