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| fungi | tc-members: commence to officing! (if you're around/conscious anyway) | 01:00 |
|---|---|---|
| pabelanger | o/ | 01:00 |
| smcginnis | Howdy | 01:00 |
| fungi | wow, this is already a lot more people than this time last week | 01:00 |
| pabelanger | indeed | 01:01 |
| smcginnis | I'm on much later than normal. :) | 01:01 |
| smcginnis | Any big issues being discussed? I read through the last office hour logs but by now I've reclaimed those brain cells. | 01:03 |
| fungi | i was marginally disappointed by the comment on the sb goal proposal which summarized as "why not just use jira" | 01:04 |
| fungi | i would almost believe it was a troll post | 01:05 |
| smcginnis | I could comment on that, but would be afraid I would offend anyone from Jira. | 01:05 |
| smcginnis | Seems trollish to me. :) | 01:05 |
| fungi | heh | 01:05 |
| pabelanger | oh, I missed that. I haven't done review for this week yet | 01:05 |
| smcginnis | As someone that had to use Jira for awhile, nope. | 01:05 |
| fungi | i responded to it in my best attempt to not offend people who make or use jira ;) | 01:05 |
| smcginnis | ;) | 01:06 |
| pabelanger | ah, see it now | 01:07 |
| fungi | i was really just disappointed someone fairly embedded in our community would make the argument that using proprietary software (even if it's "free" to use) is preferable to developing a free software alternative to that proprietary software | 01:08 |
| pabelanger | so, one of the confusing parts for me, is we are asking projects to move to storyboard, while not all features are finished. But, over the last few years while we have been trying to finalize the migration, we haven't grown the storyboard team. Are we assuming, as more projects use storyboard, they will step up to write patches or features? | 01:09 |
| fungi | that was the idea... and even in this last round a couple people replied privately to one of my ml posts asking for details on how to get involved | 01:10 |
| fungi | doesn't necessarily need to be openstack people getting involved (the people doing the bulk of the work on it don't use openstack even) | 01:11 |
| pabelanger | right, I am assuming (hoping) the pending hosting projects spec that is being worked on, would lend nicely to maybe growing more developers in storyboard | 01:12 |
| smcginnis | I think that's actually been an issue. My impression earlier on was that sb was coming and some day it might be ready to use. | 01:12 |
| smcginnis | But with no visual indication that it is near there, previously it was not on my radar at all as something to be concerned with. | 01:12 |
| fungi | also i wouldn't say that we're asking projects to move to storyboard. we're saying it's okay to choose to move to storyboard, and we're asking (via the goals proposal) if now is the time to start recommending it more heavily to the openstack community | 01:13 |
| smcginnis | Especially as I think at one point we almost shut it down, right? | 01:13 |
| fungi | yeah, it had been really only getting development activity from hp(e), and then that team got dissolved, and some non-openstack downstream users of it stepped up to continue development | 01:14 |
| pabelanger | Yah, I believe it was shutdown for a few months, then developer started up again (still ongoing). | 01:14 |
| pabelanger | I know of at least 1 project that tried to use storyboard outside of openstack for a while, but sadly migrated away from it. I believe they did submit patch upstream too, but still opted to move away | 01:15 |
| smcginnis | I think making it an official goal means we are actually asking projects to move to storyboard. But I don't think most understand what, why, and how. So it actually seems a little premature to me to make it a goal. | 01:16 |
| fungi | we've always believed there's an inflection point where once it gets enough requested features and enough established user base, development interest will accelerate | 01:16 |
| fungi | well, teams are going to use what they're going to use. there are already plenty doing task tracking in google docs and trello | 01:17 |
| EmilienM | hellow | 01:17 |
| smcginnis | I think we need something like a regular ML post about the progress on storyboard and whether it is in a state that works for most projects before we can really make it a goal. | 01:17 |
| smcginnis | It might be functionally there, but I don't think there's any visibility into that. | 01:17 |
| EmilienM | I've read the storyboard patch comments and fungi's comment, I have a little opinion | 01:18 |
| fungi | but we want to get to a point where we can stop relying on ubuntu sso, and when we stop expecting contributors to have lp/ubuntu accounts, there's a lot we can't assume about bug tracking | 01:18 |
| pabelanger | smcginnis: yah, reading the proposal again, it isn't clear to be that it is optional to migrate or asking projects too. Just that we are migrating to storyboard | 01:19 |
| smcginnis | ++ I do agree getting away from lp/ubuntu accounts is a good thing. I just think we have a little more work to do before we can get there. | 01:19 |
| EmilienM | I actually understand both point of views, someone contributing to a OpenStack project, who just need a tool that work and seeing a new tool a risk to have less features than before and loose some time on something that is maybe not worth it | 01:19 |
| smcginnis | pabelanger: Yeah, and it would seem odd to me to have an optional goal really. | 01:19 |
| fungi | smcginnis: the sb devs were trying to do a blog for a while highlighting new features and use cases, but i haven't kept up with it recently | 01:19 |
| EmilienM | on the other hand, building some tooling that fits with how we build OpenStack, with the risk of re-implementing some tools that already exist out there (jira, trello, etc) but not really open-source | 01:20 |
| EmilienM | my opinion is a bit balanced tbh, and I haven't commented yet in the review | 01:21 |
| smcginnis | Side note, but there are some open source Trello alternatives. I think it would be nice to make that available for teams at some point. | 01:21 |
| fungi | smcginnis: https://storyboard-blog.io/ i guess it's in need of some new articles | 01:21 |
| EmilienM | smcginnis: I remember Summit/PTG sessions about all these tools | 01:21 |
| EmilienM | I remember ttx / mordred leading the discussions, it was a few years ago I think | 01:22 |
| fungi | smcginnis: well, the idea with sb is that it combines kanban and worklist features with bug tracking | 01:22 |
| pabelanger | I recently was pointed to https://taiga.io/ by SoftwareFactory team, but haven't really look to much into it | 01:22 |
| EmilienM | in my opinion, we shouldn't make it a goal for Queens, but rather take a few (big) projects and migrate them | 01:23 |
| fungi | so we could also host a second trello-like kanban (e.g. wekan?) i suppose if people think there's a lot they want out of a kanban that they're not getting from sb's implementation | 01:23 |
| EmilienM | so during queens we could get more feedback on things went and improve the process for the rest of the projects | 01:23 |
| pabelanger | EmilienM: I believe it is proposed for Rocky currently | 01:24 |
| EmilienM | sorry not queens | 01:24 |
| EmilienM | rocky | 01:24 |
| smcginnis | Getting a few more projects using SB could definitely help. | 01:24 |
| EmilienM | I think my opinion is not much about the tool itself | 01:24 |
| EmilienM | it's about the changes we make | 01:24 |
| fungi | EmilienM: well, it's being proposed as a goal for rocky anyway | 01:24 |
| smcginnis | But then there is a big group of more interelated ones (Nova, Cinder, etc) that would kind of all need to make the jump at the same time. | 01:24 |
| EmilienM | Zuul v3 had been quite disruptive to be honest | 01:24 |
| pabelanger | i think it was even suggested getting the current projects to help answer questions or advocate SB to projects that haven't migrated | 01:25 |
| EmilienM | i'm afraid some community members just get tired of these big changes every cycles | 01:25 |
| fungi | but i also think it's a bit large of a goal for a 6-month cycle unless the majority of the projects who are considering using it have already migrated | 01:25 |
| smcginnis | EmilienM: zuul v3 is a good point. I am worried at some point we're going to lose some of the less dedicated contributors because they get frustrated. | 01:25 |
| EmilienM | I personaly don't launchpad | 01:26 |
| fungi | if we get serious about longer release cycles, i think more involved goals like that become a bit more tenable | 01:26 |
| EmilienM | I personaly don't like launchpad | 01:26 |
| smcginnis | I guess kind along the lines of contributor happiness that cdent has been championing. | 01:26 |
| EmilienM | but I don't want our contributors running away because we keep creating tools and making big changes at every cycle | 01:26 |
| EmilienM | they'll probably troll "ok are we going to re-write gerrit?" | 01:26 |
| EmilienM | I'm half joking here | 01:26 |
| pabelanger | well, gerrit did rewrite their web interface | 01:27 |
| EmilienM | if I would be an occasional contributor who has to maintain some code for my company, I would have an hard time to follow everything that happens in our community | 01:27 |
| EmilienM | I guess for us, it's easy because we're full time on this thing | 01:27 |
| fungi | it seems like the larger we get as a community, the more diverse the infrastructure needs for various projects become and the harder it is to get them all to use something consistent anyway | 01:27 |
| EmilienM | but I've talked with customers who try to contribute and they keep saying things change/move super fast | 01:27 |
| EmilienM | I guess, my opinion is this one: I like to think we can go away from Launchpad - let's just make it step by steps and not target one cycle/one goal. | 01:28 |
| fungi | maybe the foundation's idea to start having other non-openstack communities will help with that, if we can also start splitting off things that aren't openstack and say that it's okay for them to be different, do different things, use different tools, et cetera | 01:28 |
| EmilienM | the first reaction when I said to my group we'll have another bug tracker they said "again a new tool?" | 01:29 |
| smcginnis | That's what I've seen from the k8s community. | 01:29 |
| fungi | EmilienM: honestly, the infra spec simply says that at some point we'll approach the tc about saying it's okay for most projects to migrate to sb. since there's no formal mechanism to do that, the goals process was chosen as the closest option | 01:30 |
| EmilienM | I didn't say it, they did. We need to consider this feedback. | 01:30 |
| pabelanger | personally, it is the same issues with slow moving projects too. I myself have had problems contributing on my owntime, I've always found best to learn more about the contributors of the community and keep asking to get things merged | 01:30 |
| fungi | i agree the goals process is not a great fit for this | 01:30 |
| EmilienM | instead of "ok folks you have 6 months to change your bug tracker", it would be "how can we help to make this happen, in your pace and with the features that you need" | 01:31 |
| fungi | yeah. so far it's involved interviewing heavy lp users from various teams to try and work out feature gaps in sb and prioritize implementation for them | 01:32 |
| pabelanger | I think cmurphy did a great post to ML last week (or week before) about keystone. Saying they can't migrate yet due to private bugs. So, that would be a good example to help with what EmilienM just said | 01:32 |
| EmilienM | I spent ~1h / day on Launchpad doing bug triage - I can tell that switching to a new tool will take time. Second thing is we have a lot of bugs in Launchpad. ~500 new bugs at every cycle on average. | 01:32 |
| fungi | yes, i estimate simply importing nova's bugs from lp will take the better part of a week based on some preiminary testing | 01:33 |
| fungi | preliminary | 01:33 |
| EmilienM | so all that said, before making it a goal we should have a pilot, and not a small project. Something like Nova, Neutron or TripleO. | 01:34 |
| EmilienM | a project willing to make the change, and willing to feel some pain during the migration, if some things go wrong | 01:34 |
| pabelanger | EmilienM: I thought there was talk about tripleo being okay with the migration to SB already? | 01:34 |
| EmilienM | once the pilot migrated, we can say "ok this huge project migrated, we fixed a bunch of sb issues, we can now think at others" | 01:35 |
| EmilienM | pabelanger: i don't think tripleo is blocker, we're willing to migrate | 01:35 |
| EmilienM | tripleo is always happy to follow and contribute how we can | 01:35 |
| pabelanger | EmilienM: okay, that's how i remember it. Will to migrate | 01:35 |
| EmilienM | we need more than one champion for this goal because troubles we'll have a lot for sure | 01:36 |
| pabelanger | Yah, I mentioned to dhellmann in passing that I'd be interested in help diablo_rojo with storyboard. But I admit, i don't use storyboard much, so I cannot comment much on how the usage will affect a project | 01:37 |
| EmilienM | I'll comment what I said today on IRC in the gerrit patch | 01:38 |
| fungi | we've had increasingly large teams (aside from infra early on) moving to sb. octavia and monasca a few months ago | 01:38 |
| fungi | kolla-kubernetes migrated just last week, and the other kolla repos will probably be migrated soon | 01:38 |
| EmilienM | again, I'm very positive about the idea - but I'm (too?) realistic about it being a goal. | 01:38 |
| EmilienM | fungi: cool, good to know | 01:38 |
| EmilienM | how much bugs? | 01:38 |
| pabelanger | I know we in infra have add some issue, and people have proposed fixes. Nothing that I remember as blocker | 01:40 |
| fungi | 5k bugs total in sb so far according to `select count(*) from stories;` | 01:40 |
| pabelanger | oh, how many migrated :) | 01:40 |
| fungi | good question... my sql is not to great though. need to constrain to values under a certain integer in the id column | 01:41 |
| fungi | er, not so great | 01:41 |
| fungi | we use an offset for non-migrated stories to avoid future collisions with lp bug numbers | 01:42 |
| fungi | so in theory we can tell by counting the rows where the story id is less than the offset | 01:43 |
| smcginnis | select count(*) from stories where id < xxx ? | 01:43 |
| fungi | 3575 | 01:44 |
| fungi | migrated so fa | 01:44 |
| fungi | r | 01:44 |
| fungi | and yeah, that's the syntax i ended up guessing at | 01:44 |
| smcginnis | ;)O | 01:44 |
| fungi | stories under 2000000 are migrated and correspond to lp bug numbers so that we can easily change urls in systems like gerrit later | 01:45 |
| fungi | any with ids 2000000 and up were created new in sb | 01:46 |
| fungi | but yeah, development on our blockers _is_ progressing | 01:49 |
| fungi | for example, i'm very excited about https://review.openstack.org/526219 | 01:49 |
| fungi | that's the biggest missing piece now for private vulnerability reporting, and also should solve one of the major concerns raised for docs reporting (so we can have embedded urls which prepopulate story descriptions with information about the page/file where the issue was found) | 01:50 |
| fungi | from the vmt side the idea is that we can have a recommended reporting url documented in prominent places which creates default-private stories | 01:52 |
| fungi | for use when reporting suspected vulnerabilities | 01:52 |
| fungi | so the reporter doesn't need to know to set the "create as private" checkbox when initially filing one | 01:53 |
| EmilienM | I write my thoughts on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/513875/ | 01:54 |
| EmilienM | I hope it reflects well my opinion and what I wrote here | 01:55 |
| pabelanger | I'll read up in the morning, will be calling it EOD in another minute or so | 01:56 |
| fungi | EmilienM: thanks, well-stated in the review | 02:05 |
| EmilienM | thanks for the feedback | 02:05 |
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| fungi | ttx: i can't wait to see the variety of feedback we get on moving to year-long cycles. i have no doubt people are going to raise all sorts of benefits and drawbacks i'm not imagining | 16:27 |
| smcginnis | For sure. | 16:28 |
| pabelanger | exciting times | 16:30 |
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| ttx | indeed | 16:34 |
| ttx | so far the vendors/distros have been pretty supportive | 16:34 |
| ttx | most of them have switched to ignoring one every two releases already | 16:35 |
| ttx | and have to do n->n+2 support by themselves | 16:35 |
| ttx | so they would prefer us to cut a branch every year and support yearly upgrade paths instead | 16:35 |
| smcginnis | I've gotten some concerns from developers on changes to cadence, but vendor conversations have all been positive about the change. | 16:39 |
| persia | smcginnis: from curiosity, how many of those are social vs. focused on freezes, etc. | 16:51 |
| smcginnis | persia: How many of the concerns from developers you mean? | 16:53 |
| persia | Yes. | 16:53 |
| smcginnis | persia: My feel is it's mostly social. | 16:53 |
| persia | Thanks for the confirmation of my expectations :) | 16:54 |
| smcginnis | ;) | 16:55 |
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| dhellmann | leave it to ttx to stir the hornets' nest the day before my PTO starts ;-) | 17:16 |
| smcginnis | dhellmann: Maybe good timing? :) | 17:17 |
| dhellmann | heh, maybe. | 17:18 |
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| dims | LOL dhellmann | 18:49 |
| dims | dhellmann : ttx had a co-conspirator in smcginnis | 18:49 |
| smcginnis | ttx, dhellmann, and I all had some good discussions around this. :) | 18:54 |
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| fungi | there were quite a few people who read the draft of that too, making sure it didn't sound _too_ frightening | 19:35 |
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| openstackgerrit | Sean McGinnis proposed openstack/governance master: Mark Cinder policy in code as done https://review.openstack.org/523998 | 19:36 |
| dhellmann | dims : yeah, I'm just giving ttx a hard time; we talked about this a bit last week | 20:05 |
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